One Loyalty Journey, Sixteen Airlines with oneworld Alliance

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Loyalty has become one of the most powerful forces in travel and one of the most misunderstood. For travelers, it's about perks, upgrades, and lounge access. For airlines, it's a multi-billion-dollar business that influences everything from customer retention to revenue growth. But what happens when loyalty extends beyond a single airline and into a global alliance?

In this episode, Dan sits down with Gilbert Ott, Director of Loyalty at the oneworld Alliance, for a behind-the-scenes look at how alliance loyalty works, why it matters, and where there's still room for improvement.

We begin with Gilbert's unique journey from points-and-miles enthusiast and travel blogger to loyalty entrepreneur and, ultimately, one of the key figures shaping loyalty strategy across one of the world's largest airline alliances. From there, we explore the realities of delivering a seamless loyalty experience across more than 15 member airlines, from earning and redeeming points across carriers to reducing the friction and "gotcha moments" that can erode traveler trust.

Gilbert shares what travelers consistently value most, including reciprocal elite benefits, seamless recognition across airlines, and the enduring appeal of oneworld Emerald status, where perks like first-class lounge access can completely redefine the travel experience.

The conversation also tackles some of loyalty's biggest debates: points versus status, the misconception that programs are built around breakage, and why memorable redemption experiences often create stronger long-term loyalty than simply accumulating rewards. We discuss personalization, the challenges posed by fragmented customer data, and why flexibility may ultimately matter more than hyper-customization.

Looking ahead, Gilbert shares his perspective on the future of loyalty, from AI-powered member experiences and fraud prevention to a vision of truly frictionless travel. At its core, the goal is simple: fewer barriers, better experiences, and a journey where travelers can simply "keep on walking."

Thanks to Loyalty Status Co for sponsoring this series!

👉 Listen to One Loyalty Journey, Sixteen Airlines Now

🔥 Special Thanks to our Season 7 Title Sponsors for their Support: Bokun, Civitatis, Intrepid, Kaptio, Propellic and Protect Group

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Travel
Trends Podcast.
This is your host, DanChristian, and we're about to
begin episode two of our secondseries on loyalty.
Last week we were joined by thetwo co-founders of Loyalty
Status Co., which I thought wasa great way to kick off this
series.
They also are coincidentally thesponsor of this series, and I'm
just going to highlight thatnow.

(00:27):
Loyalty Status Co., for those ofyou who are not familiar, is an
award-winning travel technologycompany that helps travel
loyalty programs drive customeracquisition growth and silly
revenue through their elitestatus programs.
Loyalty Status Co owns andoperates statusmatch.com.
And for more information, youcan find out about them at
loyaltystatus.com.
And I mention that because I'm abig fan of Aaron Murray, who's

(00:49):
the CMO.
She joined us last year.
And I actually wanted to bringthem, the two co-founders, onto
the podcast.
Mark had been on an episodespotlight before.
It was the first time for me tomeet Stewart, but it actually
provided a really greatintroduction to the state of
loyalty that segues to theconversation we're going to have
today with Gilbert Ott, thedirector of loyalty at OneWorld.

(01:11):
And so this is a great segue,great timing, especially for
those of you who heard lastweek's episode.
Um, but first off, let mewelcome Gilbert to the podcast.
Great to have you with us.
Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21):
Thanks so much for having me, Dan.
It's not every day that you knowtravel trends calls, so really
happy to be here.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26):
Well, of course, you're most welcome.
I've had uh Roger from OneWorldon our podcast.
We did aviation last season, andOne World's been top of mind for
us uh when it comes to loyalty.
Came up a lot of times in lastweek's conversation.
And obviously, we had the chanceto meet uh just recently at the
Aviation Festival of theAmericas.
So it's really cool to meet youin person.
So really keen for us to be ableto record again.

(01:47):
And maybe let's let's startthere because what I didn't
appreciate until I had a chanceto meet you was both your
background in the loyalty spaceand also your new role within
OneWorld.
So tell everyone a little bitabout your background in
loyalty.

SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
Okay, so yeah, I I have had somewhat of a unique
background.
I started off my career as atravel blogger, the B-word.
Um and I loved it.
I was obsessed with points.
I was kind of always the watercooler person.
My previous career in the musicindustry, where everyone said,
Oh, you know, what should I do?
Ask Gibb.
Um, and so I started bloggingwith a very simple thesis, which

(02:23):
was that at the time, this wasyou know more than a decade ago
now, you know, close to twodecades, that it was really
complicated.
Everyone was speaking in thesekind of you know cryptic words.
And and, you know, uh I I just Ithought if my dad, who's a you
know, smart guy, corporatelawyer type, can understand how
to do this, there's a problemhere, and there's probably a
bigger opportunity for for theindustry if they could ever kind

(02:45):
of make it make sense.
And so I came in with thatthesis.
Uh I started a blog called GodSave the Points.
It grew fairly successfully.
And then from the back of that,I started consulting for quite a
few airlines, banks, um, hotelrewards programs.
And then um I was one of theearly founding team members at
Point Me, uh, which was a kindof first of its kind reward

(03:07):
search for points, so you know,the way people use their um
kayak and all that to look forflights.
We we created this thing whichwas was new and different.
And um, you know, One World hasalways been a huge passion of
mine.
I've I've always been a you knowdesperate One World Emerald
Chaser and really valued theprogram and and and what it
means globally.
And so when the opportunity cameto uh to join the alliance and

(03:32):
to work for for my boss, RogerBlackburn, who you who you know,
um I jumped at the chance.

SPEAKER_02 (03:37):
Yeah, I totally get it.
I mean, Roger's a fantastic guy,and when I was doing my panel
last week, he was in the roomand I introduced him as one of
our most popular guests ever.
And um uh the C which isgenuine, he was a fantastic uh
guest on the podcast, but alsohe's very knowledgeable, had so
many years at British Airways,and then One World, and then
your CEO was also in the room atat the same time.

(03:59):
And um but what I was gonna saywith your background, just for
our listeners, that you know,just to get a sense of your
expertise around loyalty,obviously, as you mentioned, you
were in the the music industryfor many years.
You were actually in LA, youmoved to New York, um, you ran
God Save the Points.
Point.me was it was and is anincredible success story uh in
the loyalty and and travelspace.

(04:20):
Um, despite the fact there was alot of other companies doing
similar things, they managed tocarve out a unique position.
Your uh role there obviously isdirector of partnerships, and
you've gone from LA, New York,to London.
And I know you're in London, andobviously now ideal for you with
uh this incredible opportunitywith OneWorld.
So tell everyone about your roleas it is today as the director

(04:40):
of loyalty at OneWorld Alliance.
What is it you do and what is ityou're focusing on?

SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
This is the most popular question.
I I love this question.
Everyone has kind of a differentflavor of what they think it is,
and they're always at leastsomewhat surprised when I when I
give the answer.
So hopefully there's some flavorof that for everyone listening.
Um, you know, no two days arethe same, but but generally, you
know, I think that One World asan alliance is this incredible

(05:05):
connective tissue for the workthat our members do to achieve
amazing customer relationships.
You know, everyone loves theirairline status, they chase it,
they desire it, it unlocksreally meaningful travel
benefits.
And the only thing better thanthat is when it has, you know,
applies to uh to a global scale,right?
You know, so you're loyal to oneairline in one geography, they

(05:26):
might not fly to anothergeography, but you know, if
you're with their partner, youknow, their one world partner
within that geography, you'reyou have your lounge access, you
know, maybe if you're a SapphireEmerald member, you have your
first class check-in, et cetera.
So, you know, it's that kind ofuh it's a belief that this
really is a strong system.
And so, you know, we're lookingafter everything from ensuring

(05:46):
that the basics work, you know,from an earn and burn
perspective.
We want to make sure that, youknow, when you fly a One World
Airline, you can pick yourfavorite frequency program and
earn points with that program.
And um, same for redemption, youshould be able to redeem your
points across the allianceonline, good capability.
So there's a lot of that, youknow, the really basic stuff.
But when you multiply thatacross tech systems, 15

(06:09):
airlines, and growing, talkabout that in a bit, I guess.
But um, you know, more and morecomplexity enters the game with
each partner and then makingsure that that's a kind of
aligned, good process that thecustomer can depend on.
And then, you know, beyond that,um, you know, we're doing really
interesting things of trying toenhance the guest experience.
What can we do to recognize youbetter?

(06:30):
You know, whether you're flyingyour home airline or a partner
airline.
Um, are there things we can addvalue to your daily life beyond
just when you're in the skies orwhen one of our airports?
So I think you know, it covers awhole lot of ground, but we work
really closely.
I think if you were looking forkind of a business alignment, we
work really closely with ourcustomer experience, digital
teams, um, you know, to reallyfind those pain points and

(06:53):
address them.
It's, you know, I think we don'tshy away from that.
We want to be the one that's,hey, if this is a problem, we
need to know about it, we needto fix it.

SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
Well, one of the things I'm keen to understand is
what drew you to the travelindustry itself.
Because clearly you now have avery important role within the
industry of um, you know, thedirector of loyalty at OneWorld.
That's obviously an excitingrole.
But it clearly you were in musicbefore, but you got into this uh
points and miles.
Tell us a little bit about whatdrew you into covering loyalty
with your blog, and obviouslyyou were shaping it at the same

(07:20):
time.
But um tell us a little bitabout why you got industry in
into the industry in the firstplace.
When you mentioned people askingyou, Gibb, tell us what we
should do.
Was it the fact you were justalways traveling, collecting
miles to travel as much aspossible?

SPEAKER_00 (07:31):
Pretty much.
You know, I think uh I I read onan airline napkin somewhere in
the 90s that if you you knowjoined their program, you could
earn free flights.
And I thought that was reallycool.
And so I immediately signed upand I actually got the physical
frequent flyer cards sent to myfamily.
I enrolled everyone in my familyin the program.
And they looked at me like, whatthe is this?

(07:53):
You know, and I said, Don'tworry, it's all gonna work out
one day.
And you know, uh as as a trulylike young kid, it was
compelling to me.
I I thought, wow, like whatcould be cooler than than a free
flight?
And yeah, I think you know,everything has kind of come full
circle since then, you could sayprobably.

SPEAKER_02 (08:10):
Yeah.
Well, it's it's amazing how youknow the for all of us, we would
find our way into the travelindustry one way or another if
we uh love traveling and then weend up discovering that we love
the industry and you actuallycan enjoy both if you um because
it's it doesn't feel like workif it's something that you're
passionate about and otherwiseinterested in.
So I'm sure that feels uh verymuch the way for you and your
role because you were doing thisalready, and now all of a sudden

(08:32):
you're doing it for a largeglobal company.
And um, one of the things Iwanted to talk to you about
first, and this is very much asegue from last week's
conversation, which is thedifference between airline
loyalty and alliance loyalty.
And it's a question that I waskeen to ask you for this
discussion, and I'll give uhsome context to this and then
keen to get your take.
I spoke at length last week's Ispoke at length on last week's

(08:54):
podcast um to try and highlightmy experience as a Air Canada
and Star Alliance super elite.
And obviously, I know there'sthe three big uh alliances.
There's one world and there'sStar Alliance and there's Sky
Team.
Um but one of the things Iwanted, and it really it's all
dependent on where you're basedand where you're flying.
When I lived in Australia, I wasQantas, and in the UK, British

(09:16):
Airways, so I'm One World aswell as Star Alliance, but
simply by virtue of where you'rebased, the carrier you're
primarily using, you end upchoosing to fly with that
particular carrier.
So I'm not beholden to one uhalliance over another.
It's just really tied to what'sthe most practical.
And so when I was talking aboutthat with um with Mark and
Stuart, what I was highlightingto them is I see huge value of

(09:39):
being a Star Alliance member.
So for me, I it's not aboutbeing part of Aeroplan.
It's really about being part ofthe Alliance because I get
access to other lounges.
Like, you know, no matter I canfly with any of the Alliance
partners and earn earn not onlymy points, but ultimately what
we focused on in ourconversation last week um was

(10:00):
status, of course.
And uh I'm keen to break out theconversation with you today
between status and points andmiles so we can talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 (10:06):
I'm not sure we can.
I'm not sure we can.
You just you just gave theperfect description of of why it
matters.
I have no notes, so I think wecan just you know roll credits
and and go from there.

SPEAKER_02 (10:17):
All right, well, we will come to that.
But let's start broadly with thequestion of airline loyalty
versus alliance loyalty.
So how does you know One World,Alliance, like change that
dynamic with people beingdedicated to one airline versus
a alliance?
What what is your view on that?

SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
Yeah.
So first on behalf of One World,thank you for your loyalty in
case Star Alliance hasn't saidthe same to you.
Um, you know, we really do valueyour business.
Um I think, you know, from agenuine perspective, alliance
loyalty is exactly what you justsaid.
It is this connective tissuearound the globe.
Your preferred carrier may go inmany directions, they may have a
certain frequency to many placesthat work, but every once in a

(10:57):
while there isn't a globalairline around the world which
doesn't have what you need ifyou are a truly global traveler
or someone who's looking foroptionality around schedule, you
know, um type of aircraft, etcetera.
And that's where to have thatglobal recognition is just such
a differentiator.
And I think that, you know,within one world, what's

(11:18):
differentiating is the emeraldtier.
You know, you can get up to yourgold tier, and that's excellent.
It's business class lounges, butyou know, when you have a
membership that has a lot offirst class products, it's very
cool for your loyalty to be ableto give you access to those
first class products, the firstclass check-in, the first class
lounge, you know, those boardinggroups.
Um, and so I think the alliancereally does provide that

(11:41):
international comfort blanketfor the traveler who goes
everywhere and even the travelerwho usually is very regional.
You know, I hope everyone getsthat opportunity to go somewhere
far and wide and discover thatthe network is pretty
incredible.
There's almost a thousand OneWorld destinations, and that's
not something that anyone oneone airline can say.

SPEAKER_02 (12:00):
Yeah, well, and the number of times, and this is
where uh OneWorld, some of thelounges that you have, uh
particularly British Airways inHeathrow and the gin and tonics
that you can get.
Like it's like people become youneed to because they're
extraordinary.
But I it's one of the things youas you're uh uh a frequent flyer
and traveling, it's it becomespart of the overall experience.

(12:23):
Um, is that the an expectationthere that once you achieve that
status that you're gonna getaccess to these lounges and it
becomes part of what you enjoyand look forward to each time
you're traveling?
And so this is actually what Iwanted to dive into first from a
traveler point of view.
Since everyone listens, eventhough this is a B2B podcast,
we're all avid travelers andwe're avid flyers.
And so, from a customerperspective, what do you think

(12:46):
is the most meaningful part ofthe One World Alliance program?
Like what are you seeing,especially if you know you've
just joined in the last sixmonths?
I'm sure a lot of this is allkind of uh standing out to you
now as you're looking at thedata based on what you thought
on the outside, and now you'reon the inside.
What are some of the mostmeaningful benefits?
Lounges obviously has got to beright up there.
Um, but what are you seeing thatpeople value most?

SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
Such a good question.
I think there's two brains forthis.
You know, one is the somewhatindulgent brain, the other is
the very practical, thank youfor doing this for me.
This is a really helpful brain.
So on the practical brain, Ithink seat selection, free seat
selection, especially acrosspartners, is incredible.
You know, the the fact thatyou're able to select a
preferred seat, um, evensometimes a bulkhead or you

(13:29):
know, front of a cabin seat is avery cool perk, especially
because you know virtuallyeveryone's charging for seats
these days.
So that's real money that you'reable to save on a journey, you
know, and globally, not justwith your carrier.
15 plus carriers now within oneworld, as I think you know, we
were gonna alluding to, you youknow, we had uh Pal is accepting
a um offer to join the alliance.
We're thrilled to be addingthem.

(13:50):
Philippine Airlines, you know,incredible hospitality.
So we're gonna be, you know, ifall things go to plan, you know,
adding another member and weshould push towards over a
thousand destinations.
Uh, you know, and so I think theseat selection is is huge.
You know, I mean, to be able todo that with everyone, you're
recognized with everyone.
That's the one that I hear aboutoften when when I kind of get

(14:11):
into like the if we had to takeone away, which we would, you
know, no plans, don't worry.
It's not hot news.
Um, you know, but like if youhad to hold on to one kind of
like, what would it be?
The seat selection is always theone that actually creeps up on
the practical side.
On the socially newsworthy andjust really fun makes the
airport a lot different side.

(14:33):
It it is the lounges, you know,and especially that we have the
Emerald tier where your statuscan unlock a first class lounge.
I don't know if you've ever beento, let's say, the the Qantas
First Class Lounge at LAX or umany of these kind of global
propositions, Cathay First inHong Kong, um, JAL first in in
Tokyo Hana.
These are pretty exceptionalexperiences, you know, like a la

(14:53):
carte sushi and you know, pr youknow, chef-designed menus.
And to be able to have that be athing, regardless of which
program you're loyal to, it'spretty incredible.
It's it's it's the one that Ithink for the traveler who
really wants more, it is thatmore.
It's it's an experience that istough to compete with.

SPEAKER_02 (15:13):
Well, you mentioned obviously Philippines Airlines,
which is an excitingdevelopment.
It actually was uh mentioned onlast week's podcast because it
had just been announced after Isaw you guys were off to Rio,
and then that was the bigannouncement.
So one of the keys to Alliancesis to make sure that you have
global network coverage.
And it's certainly one of thebenefits I see, and that's where
when you know the two major StarAlliance in One World truly have

(15:35):
that.
Sky Team uh is the thirdlargest, and they obviously have
Delta.
Many people are loyal to Delta,they have Virgin, they have many
great airlines as part of theirprogram as well, but not the
same global coverage as OneWorldor Star Alliance.
So for you, obviously havingthat coverage in Asia is a big
exciting development because nowany OneWorld member is going to
be able to earn on PAL Airlinesas well, and they can also um

(15:58):
have routes, as you mentioned,like a thousand destinations.
So, my question to you is onthis is consistency and loyalty
experience, especially when youhave new brands joining and
service levels.
So tell us a little bit of howyou actually make that work at
OneWorld so that any one worldcustomer has a consistently
great experience across all ofyour carriers.

SPEAKER_00 (16:16):
Fun topic.
You know, so everyone does havedifferent levels.
Um, but I think that this theshared threat is that everyone
is seeking excellence.
You know, everyone wants to bepremium and we kind of we we
celebrate the differences on thebrand side and we really try to
be increasingly consistent onthe loyalty side.
And to me, that's reallychipping away at the gotcha

(16:38):
moments, you know, like withinour loyalty team, you know, we
really think like if there'skind of an exception to
something, it probably shouldn'texist.
How can we make it better forthe customer?
How can we make this moreconsistent so that you know what
you're being promised is whatyou're getting delivered?
And and then I think on the youknow, on the customer side, we
have a customer service, acustomer experience team,

(16:58):
particularly that's justoutstanding.
They're they're doing regularaudits of feedback, they're
working with airport teams.
How can we make this moreconsistent?
You know, teach ends of how torecognize One World members.
So I think that kind of stuff,you'd be amazed at how much work
is done behind the scenes toactually enable that.
It's not always easy.
It's not always frictionless,but but we get there.

(17:21):
And it's that it's that endlesspursuit.
I think I was I was on, youknow, when we were together in
Miami, someone said, you know, alot of the best loyalty
experiences just come fromcaring more.
And I would challenge anybody tocare more than I do or than we
do about pushing a reallyconsistent loyalty experience.

SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Aaron Powell Well, clearly um uh when you add new
airlines, because like Hawaiianwas one of the big developments
before.
And I should so clearly you'realready you know you're
continuing to expand theopportunities.
Is there anywhere thatcurrently, from your vantage
point, that there's still um amissed opportunity that you're
still looking to either add uhmore capacity or uh regional

(18:00):
coverage?
Is there anything that's kind ofstands out to you?
Um is still an opportunity forOneWorld to expand into?

SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Well, I'll you know, I'll give you an example from
this week, which which was hotnews um and something we're very
proud of, which is that we havepartnered with Taj Hotels, you
know, the India Hotel CompanyLimited to offer guest um
reciprocity to some extent, somestatus recognition, eventually
some points earning, you know,from our members at their hotels
and a discount for all One Worldmembers.

(18:27):
And and that's an example of amarket, India, which you know I
deeply care about on a personallevel.
I have a tattoo in Hindi on myarm, won't show it now, but um,
for another time, you know.
Uh it's it's uh it's anincredible market.
We care deeply about it, but youknow, we do not have perfect
coverage there.
We have some great coverage fromfrom member airlines, but we do

(18:48):
not have a domestic carrier.
And so for us, you know, to beable to extend the guest
hospitality for you know a OneWorld B, Sapphire, or Emerald
onto the ground and have themhave tangible benefits, not only
in India, but through the globalTaj portfolio, and then vice
versa, for Taj guests to have areason to care about us, you
know, it was a really kind ofdream-come true situation.

(19:08):
And and that was one where wematched ambition with ambition.
And we I think there's a lotmore to come there.
Watch this space, but it doesn'thave to be an airline, it
doesn't have to be, you know,something deep and integrated.
It can actually just be, hey, wecare about your guests and you
care about our guests, and andlet's let's do that.
We'll be right back.

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SPEAKER_02 (21:53):
And now, back to the show.
Well, let's talk about some ofthose partnerships outside of
the airlines themselves.
And you mentioned uh Taj andobviously.
Hotels and any accommodation,it's really those are the two
kind of big loyalty areas is umairlines, hotels, and then you
have car um rental companies aswell.
We talked about OTAs a bit lastweek on our episode as well.

(22:13):
But the reason I want to talkabout partnerships is because as
people see the benefit of theirOneWorld um status being applied
to other opportunities, whetherit be experiences, um the credit
cards that they hold.
Um I'm keen to know how OneWorldfits into all of this and how
you approach partnershipsoutside of your airline and your

(22:36):
carriers.
How do you guys look atpartnerships?
Are you are you specificallyfocused on hotels?
Are you focused on experiences?
How are you rounding out theopportunity for OneWorld high
status members to be able toutilize either their status or
their points or miles?

SPEAKER_00 (22:50):
To use a very corporate term, I would say it's
a very cross-functional kind ofeffort.
We have an amazing brand team.
You know, we have really umgreat member engagement too.
And I think, you know, for usit's it's looking for partners
who align in seeking thatpremium guest, being a premium
hospitality experience, um,trying to elevate what they're

(23:12):
doing now.
And it's a disciplined approachbecause of that.
You know, it has to be I thinkwe're we're we're very open.
You know, I was I left a meetingin London today with a really
interesting brand that would bea different vertical.
And we will continue to takeconversations wherever we think
guests will want to go and whatthey will expect from primary

(23:33):
loyalty preference.
That's kind of the way that welike to frame it.
We want to be your primaryloyalty preference.
You know, I don't want it to beyour bank or your hotel.
I would like it to be somefunction of us extending that.
And so um we we want to go wherethe people expect us to and and
do better than they expect usto.

SPEAKER_02 (23:53):
Well, and here's an interesting one uh from my
vantage point, when I look atairline loyalty programs, and it
literally connects to why yougot into the industry in the
first place is you know, freeflights.
And when you look at loyaltyprograms, it's that simple,
right?
Like it it it truly is, and formost people, is like they look
at their credit card company andthey're running commercials
showing the travel experiencesthey'll get if they use these uh

(24:15):
uh credit card programs.
So like it's all tied to theincentive and the reward being
travel.
And what I find reallyfascinating about that is that
um the if your focus is onopening up travel experiences,
why not not just be limited tobeing an airline focused uh
loyalty program, why not be thefull travel ecosystem loyalty

(24:36):
program, the one world beyondjust airlines, the one world of
hotels, the one world of uh so Iknow I'm painting a a um uh a
bit more of a utopian viewthough of what could be, and
it's likely not in the plans forone world.
And one of the reasons I want toask you this question is because
last week when we were havingthis conversation with Mark and
Stuart about uh loyalty programsand their tie to airlines, is

(25:00):
that we did see 10, 15 yearsago, a number of airlines spin
off their loyalty programs, andthere was a brief moment where
they were worth even more thanthe airlines.
And Stuart is a CFO from uhLoyalty Status Co.
had highlighted that you knownow the airlines are worth more,
but and most of the airlineshave bought them back, and
they've bought them back veryintentionally because they've
realized that the the flyingexperience and status and being

(25:24):
um uh a lifetime customer isthat much more important than
just the loyalty, the than thepoints and miles that they're uh
earning as well.
And so their focus, and you knowthis obviously because you work
with them, their focus isstatus.
I'm intrigued about points andmiles, which is one of the
reasons I said, let's put a pinin that and come back to that
because I want to ask you aboutthat as well.
But my specific question on thispoint is that could alliances

(25:46):
like uh One World become more ofa full travel ecosystem, or do
you think they'll always remainairline focused?

SPEAKER_00 (25:53):
I think I think discipline is the key.
You know, we we have we have adeep interest in serving the
customer however best we can.
You know, we haveround-the-world fairs so that
they can get around the globewell.
Um we have some really coolproducts coming, you know, for
for the meeting and eventsspace.
Um you know, we want to be ableto to get what people need from

(26:14):
us.
We want to serve that.
And I think over time, the youknow, I I can't speak to the
future specifically, but I thinkit's this relentlessly
analytical approach to it.
And, you know, if it's good forthe guest and it's good for our
member airlines and we canincrease something, then, then
we're gonna look at it.
That I think that's my my takefor now.

SPEAKER_02 (26:35):
Yeah, and that's where I'm excited to see how
this space uh continues toevolve and grow.
And I I do think there's there'sum significant potential there
depending on how you market itand position it.
But let's let's talk about uhthe points of miles, because I'm
keen to get your take on this.
It was very clear from theloyalty status team that they're
you know, that status is theprimary driver.
And you know, I agree to that toa large extent from my personal

(26:57):
experience, uh, because I seeall the benefits from being a
frequent flyer that's travelingmore than half of the time.
I love the lounge, I love the uhpriority uh boarding and and uh
you know being expedited throughthe airports, all these and
having like multiple bags, allthat all the benefits of status
speak to me, and I do not wantto lose that status.
The points and miles, however,is typically, and you can

(27:20):
educate me here because you'vegot a lot more expertise on this
with your background, but I'veuh I've worked in loyalty
companies.
I understand that model ofpoints and miles and not only in
giving people the earn and burn,the terminology you used, and
obviously a lot of um there's noquestion that points and miles
shape customer behavior.
And if if you can purchaseproducts and earn miles or

(27:41):
points in the program of yourpreference, it will shape
customer behavior.
They will buy that bottle of rumor they will choose that
particular item because they'regonna get these bonus miles.
And companies sell them for thevery clear purpose of, and you
know, I the the valuations allvary.
And again, this is exactly themath you were doing because it's
like, is it a tenth of a cent?
Is it one cent?
And then if you're going toredeem it based on what you're

(28:01):
redeeming it against, this wholeburn, um, is it a good deal or
not based on the currency andthe trade value?
And airlines want you to useyour points and miles because
they're holding uh a liabilityon their balance sheets, but
they want you to do it at a waythat's advantageous to them so
that if it costs you, you know,if it's one cent for them when
they sell it, and if it costsyou know two cents for you every
time you redeem, there's a nicelittle business model there for

(28:23):
anyone who has a goodunderstanding of uh foreign
exchange and and where the realprofits are.
So this and again, I'm I I don'tmean to get into um uh too much
of a nuance on the points ofmiles, but what I wanted to
bring back for this conversationis the overall point, the
overall value of those, becauseultimately, yes, I uh value the

(28:44):
status, but I utilize all thosepoints.
And I use them to book my kidscoming home from university or
my mom coming for a visit, orlike I use all those.
I and so I know there's valuebeing created there, and I take
full advantage of being able toutilize those when it's
appropriate.
So for me, the answer actuallyis both.
I would love to hear from yourvantage point, especially given
your background.
What's your view on points andmiles and how important they are

(29:05):
in comparison to status?

SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
We're gonna need more time.
I can go on for quite a whileabout this.
Um I'll say this.
I think that, you know, numberone, I have to mention One World
Airlines typically win most ofthe awards for the best loyalty
programs globally.
You know, American, Alaska,Obvios Group, you know, like
there's a ton of positivity.
Quantas, of course, Cathay.

(29:28):
We have an incredible slew ofprograms.
They represent over 37% of thetop 20 loyalty valuations
globally.
Uh and their currencies, youknow, if you get into that sense
per point kind of nerdy levelof, you know, what is a mile
from one of these programsworth, they're typically the
most valuable points as well.
So they that opportunity cost touse them is very strong.

(29:50):
You know, I think what what'sreally cool is that when I look
at the model that lots ofmembers and lots of airlines
globally are using, specificallywith our members, I would say
breakage is not the model.
No one, for everyone listeninghere, none of these programs
want you to not get value fromyour points.
They actually really do, becausewhat they've learned over time
is that if you find value, ifyou enjoy your points, you will

(30:14):
come back and you will have alifelong relationship.
And so I think whereas, youknow, of course, other alliances
probably certainly not ours, youknow, in the past, maybe there
was actually hope that you wouldearn a lot of points, not be
able to redeem them or redeemthem for a toaster.
That's not at all the goal.
I think that they, you know, thesmart ones have realized that
that doesn't actually create therelationship you want to be in
with the customer.

(30:35):
And so for me, I'm very proudthat we offer really cool
experiences, including firstclass, right?
You know, not everybody caresabout first class.
For some people, it's a discounton a MacBook.
But I think being able to serveall those viewpoints is
important.
I I love you know your exampleof getting the kids home from
college.
Sometimes it's just nice to savemoney and not have an expense

(30:55):
that would otherwise, especiallyduring peak travel periods, be
very costly.
So, you know, that's a big pieceto me.
I think status is reallyinteresting as well.
Uh I see points as engagement.
They're a great way to stayengaged and keep the customer
relationship growing over time.
We we have we've built thingstogether and you've gotten
things from that relationship.
Status is another one.

(31:17):
And I think, you know, withstatus, we hear from the kind of
loyalty minds sometimes aboutirrational behavior.
You know, they're like, oh, wewant the customer to do
irrational things and choose us.
I I think of it more about therational side where, you know,
actually I want to have suchdefined benefits which are so
valuable to you that it would beirrational to miss out on those.

(31:37):
And, you know, you know, we weretalking a bit before we started
about AI.
And, you know, I think that'sone of the interesting things
with this, you know, kind oflanguage model conversational
agent model, where, you know,hey, who should I book my flight
with?
You know, if if that agent knowsthat you have first-class lounge
access, first-class check-in,free seat selection, like even

(31:58):
some of these, you know, lesserperforming AIs are going to
figure out that there's probablya lot of money on the table if
you don't take that option.
So I think that's where we wantto be the best at recognizing
the status and and and the perksand offering the stuff that that
even an AI model understands isreally, really valuable.
So they always tell me I'mright, then I question them and
then they realize I'm wrong.
So I'm I'm yet to fully believethat they have all the answers

(32:20):
to all of our problems, but Ialso am not a skeptic.
I I know that they have a lot ofpower.

SPEAKER_02 (32:24):
So it sounds to me that your answer would be both.
Like I obviously I'm not gonnapush you to weigh one way or
another as far as what is the uhoverarching preference of
guests, because I mean some ofthat is subjective, but wouldn't
um and personal preferences, uhwhat I should say, is that but
from your vantage point at oneworld, it's a combination of
status and the points.
Like and that when you definethe success of your program,

(32:46):
it's the fact that, and you areabsolutely right that, and it's
one thing that it's differentthan say gift cards, where
breakage is actually one of theways that those companies also
make money, uh, is that peopledon't actually redeem them.
You're you're right, there's amisperception out there that uh
airlines are hoping you don't.
They actually do want you to,they just want to find the right
way to continue to incentivizeyour behavior in a way that so

(33:08):
yeah, I guess my final questionon this one is do you think it's
a good idea?

SPEAKER_00 (33:11):
I'll give you an answer if you want.
Yeah, I'll give you the answer.
I think I think points are thegateway drug to lifelong status
relationships, you know, becausewhen I when I use my points and
I fly business class for thefirst time and I experience the
check-in, the lounge, I'm kindof like, I don't actually ever
want to go back there.
I'm staying here.
Like you can't remove me fromthis seat, you know.

(33:31):
And and then they bring the ducttape and they say, Mr.
Ott, not you again.
Um, but you know, but you know,jokes aside, I think it is that
thing where um once you'veexperienced a premium airline
experience, you get it.
It's it's not an easy thing tomarket, it's not an easy thing
to understand.
But when you're facing, let'ssay, a 16-hour flight and you
see a first class suite, abusiness class bed, you kind of

(33:55):
get it.
And when you get to try it frompoints, which you earned through
this relationship, you're thenkind of like, how do I do this
again?
And status is a great way to getthere.

SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Yeah, it's uh actually it it's not only funny,
but it's also very accurate.
I mean, just the It is it it isthe it's the first thing that
gets you hooked is and youtalked about uh getting cards
for all your family members, andwe made sure we got our kids'
cards because you want to getthem started.
It's like you know, you need tomake sure you have a loyalty
program.
Get started.
If you're gonna book a flight,get join the loyalty program.
Like get started right away, getpoints or miles from that first

(34:27):
flight because ultimately itleads to status, and status is
what keeps you there or holds onto you, but points is worth it.

SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
You get more points, you get more benefits, you get
all this stuff.
Like it's it goes faster now.
Like, ooh.

SPEAKER_02 (34:39):
It's good stuff.
Here's another hot topic um fromlast week's discussion:
personalization.
I um I was asking both Stuartand uh Mark about what I thought
what they thought was the mostoverhyped area, and they both
said personalization.
I said, you can't saypersonalization because it
already came up in theconversation, is that we keep
talking about personalization,and I'm very bullish on AI, and

(35:01):
I'm also bullish on thepotential for more personalized
experiences as a result ofhaving access to that technology
and what it can mean.
But at their points were bothvery valid that you know a lot
hasn't changed.
There's been a lot of promisesaround uh personalization that
have yet to be fully realized.
And I owned a few examplesmyself where, you know, the even
with my status, um, that mypreferred airline, there's

(35:23):
clearly things they don't knowabout me when I'm making my
bookings that would haveprobably made life easier.
So there's lots of opportunitystill to better personalize.
So I guess my direct question toyou on this, especially as you
brought up AI, I obviously wantto get into that topic as well.
Um, but in terms ofpersonalization, you have a
unique vantage point of beingacross multiple airlines.
What is your view onpersonalization and if that's

(35:46):
actually possible acrossmultiple airlines, or is that
still uh a big challenge?

SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
So I think two things.
Number one, I think AI andpersonalization, it's hard
because the underlying data hasto be right.
Otherwise, it's instantly wrong.
You know, so if on some surveyone time 10 years ago, you
ticked a box that said, I don'tlike sushi, and forever they've
just assumed that you don't likesushi and the world has changed
or your tastes have changed,that personalization is going to

(36:14):
be inherently flawed, right?
And so I think there's a lot ofhype around it because it's not
easy to have good data or totrust the data.
And that's where I thinkscrutiny of what the underlying
data for personalization,because obviously all
personalization is coming fromdata points, you know, better
scrutiny of what's real and whatyou really care about is part of

(36:35):
that process.
Some are further along thanothers, but ultimately I do
think it it will always be achallenge to get it 100% right.
Like you're gonna get that wronghappy birthday at some point,
right?
You know, it just happens.
Um I think, you know, the thethe midstep, not the end result,
but the kind of midstep ofpersonalization is flexibility.

(36:55):
I value flexibility highly in mytravels, and it's something that
I know, you know, at one worldwe're certainly looking at for
our travelers.
I think flexibility is thatopportunity to be you.
You know, sometimes you havelots of people traveling with
you, sometimes you have one,sometimes you're by yourself.
We have very arbitrary rules foralmost everything, you know,
plus ones, et cetera.

(37:16):
Don't have anything to say rightnow specifically on that, but I
can say that flexibility mattersbecause you should be you,
whoever you are on the day, um,however you're choosing to
travel.
And that's not something thatthe industry captures very well
right now.

SPEAKER_02 (37:29):
Aaron Powell Well, when we talk about AI and
technology, I'm clearly I'm sureyou're starting to see partners
across the group utilizing thistechnology in interesting ways.
I'm keen to get your take onthis, because obviously the
example of personalization is isjust one of many of how AI can
be utilized.
But how are you seeing AI inparticular or just the way that

(37:50):
um partners are utilizingtechnology that will influence
loyalty across alliancepartners?

SPEAKER_00 (37:56):
Yeah, you know, it's a fascinating topic.
Uh I think a lot of it really isin the machine learning side of
AI and the ability to look forpatterns.
You know, AI is very good atpattern matching above almost
everything else, in my opinion.
And you know, we have partnerswho there is a limit to how much
information we're willing toshare with each other.
But at an alliance level, theremay be an ability to pattern

(38:16):
match of fraud is a big topic,frankly.
You know, I think people wouldbe surprised what an attempt at
fraud there is globally withinpoints.
People think of it with withtheir money and their banks and
everything, but you know, pointsare a are a form of currency.
You know, they are they arereally valuable, they they
unlock great experiences and andpeople have you know,
unfortunately, bad incentives touh to try to make the most of

(38:39):
them.
And so we look at it from an AIperspective of you know, what
pattern matching can you do?
Can you spot bad behavior,malicious behavior, um, and what
can we do about it?
Other than that, absolutelyuseful for help desk things.
I think you know how you deploythat matters, how it how you
make it so that the customerisn't expecting to talk to
someone and then they end uptalking to an agent that just

(39:01):
makes them want to throw theirphone out the window.
You know, I think we we we tryto be on the right side of that.
I think we always will.
And you know, but there arethese amazing tools that can
really be helpful and get youtimely information.
It's just a matter of how that'sdigested at the user level.

SPEAKER_02 (39:17):
Aaron Powell Well, let's talk a little bit about
economics and and also thestrategy of how loyalty programs
operate.
And this is where, you know,from your vantage point, um, I
think there'll be some certainlyinteresting things that you uh
hopefully can share with howloyalty works at a alliance
level.
For example, loyalty programsare known to be a major revenue
driver for airlines, and thatwas part of the reason that they

(39:39):
were getting spun off, and therewas these huge valuations in the
loyalty programs because theycan sell these miles and points,
and and given it influencesbehavior, they can sell them and
they can find the right model toredeem at a lower valuation.
And these are, you know, thesehave become nicely profitable
programs under themselves.
And I understand from lastweek's conversation, the whole
idea is to better integrate themwith the airlines.

(39:59):
Um, but when you think aboutdriving revenue and um and
benefiting uh these individualcarriers, what does that look
like at an alliance level?
What is the alliance model, ifyou will, and and how should we
be looking at alliance programsin terms of their economic role
and value in the whole loyaltyworld?

SPEAKER_00 (40:22):
Yeah, uh you know, I think at at a very basic level,
we really do believe that agreat guest experience globally
is gonna have a very positiveimpact on each of these
businesses.
And the more that we deliver aconsistent and excellent loyalty
experience, that's what it'sabout.
The economics of the loyaltyprograms really much are much
more at the individual, youknow, operating carrier program

(40:44):
level.
You know, they have therelationships with the credit
card programs, they have the thetransfers with the major banks,
they have their you knowshopping portals, et cetera.
Um, you know, all of thosethings, of course, you know, you
look at over time at thealliance level.
There's an alliance that has acard out there in the market, in
in a certain market.
I I don't know how impactfulthat's been, but that you know,

(41:06):
there can be opportunities tolook at some markets and see w
if it makes sense to to kind ofbring a coalition together.
But I would say, you know, froma very P ⁇ L perspective, it's
it's it's internal.
But I think you know, it's whereyou look at the customer
relationship and that ability tokeep them within, you know,
within one world and and to stayloyal is is a big part of that.

(41:29):
You know, when you look, I thinkif you if you talk to any great
airline, their loyalty teams aredeeply embedded with the
customer teams and and how wehandle things on the airport
side, the operational side, thedigital side, the CRM side.
And so there's a lot ofinterdependency there.
We have a very similar approachto to excellence, where it takes

(41:50):
a village, we try to bring thevillage.
And so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Well, it certainly from uh uh from my experience
and my overall uh uh I preferbeing a part of the alliance and
the airlines.
And my my loyalty is much moreto the alliance than it is to
the airline because you usingthat example of Air Canada and
the Star Alliance is like if AirCanada wasn't part of Star
Alliance, I would just chooseanother carrier that would give
me the global networkingcoverage.
And it's interesting becauseit's the same with uh

(42:16):
hospitality, and we talked abouta little bit about this uh in
last week's episode, and we'lltalk more on next week's we'll
focus more on hotel andhospitality is you know, like
companies like Marriott Envoy,is that many consumers won't
even consider staying at a hotelwhere they can't earn Bonvoy uh
points and continue to buildtheir status.
And the same applies withalliance programs.
So for me, whether it's OneWorld or Star Alliance, um the

(42:38):
whole idea is I want my loyaltyis to the Alliance.
So another question along thesame lines, and this is where
it's fascinating having you herefor this conversation, um, uh to
understand how alliances workand also where they're headed.
So one of the things I was alsokeen to ask you is like in a
world of uh more directbookings, um, are you seeing
alliances become more valuable?

(42:59):
Like, how is the role ofalliances changing as consumer
behavior change?
And even in terms ofpersonalization, obviously
that's one aspect of you know,as technology improves, you
ultimately want a guest to havea seamless experience and all
the things that you can do.
And I was speaking on our AFAspotlight episode um to Guido,
who you work with, um, and hisrole at OneWorld, with making

(43:20):
sure there's a consistent guestexperience throughout the
airports.
And a lot of airlines will losevisibility of a customer when
they transition from one airlineto another, but One World
doesn't because they have aholistic view of the customer.
And so um that's where actuallyI see alliances becoming more
valuable and more important astechnology allows that

(43:40):
connectivity.
So yeah, keen to get your takeon where you think alliances are
becoming more or less importantin uh the travel industry today.

SPEAKER_00 (43:47):
Aaron Powell It's a real question.
I'm glad you asked it.
I think you know it's our fightto win, but it's a fight there
that everyone's competing foreyeballs, everyone's competing
for that top of funnel on thebooking.
Uh, you know, I've neverbelieved that anyone has an
inherent.
Right to exist or to a customer,but I believe we're really well
placed to win it.
Guido, our VP of digital, is isis also a fight or two.

(44:08):
You know, he's up for the fight,so is his team.
I I think I always make thedistinction with frictionless
and seamless.
You know, seamless, I'm wearinga blazer.
You know, if it was seamless, mysleeve would be coming down the
side of my shirt right now, andI would be wearing basically a
vest.
You know, frictionless, I think,is where we want to get to.
And that's our ability to reallydo things at scale as an

(44:31):
alliance.
It would be really difficult todo times 15, let's say, across
the members.
You know, it's it's one thing topartner on a frictionless
experience with one airline.
Try duplicating that 15 times,you start to look at like three
to five to 10 to 20 yearroadmaps of integrations.
You know, whereas if we cancreate a really nice framework
for that, a really nicetechnology solution, a way for

(44:52):
everybody to kind ofinterconnectively plug and play,
hey, you know, that's savingsignificant time for the
members, and it actually iscreating that frictionless
experience that the customerwould like.
And so it's a win-win for themember and the customer.
And that's where we focus a lotof the effort.
I know Guido does.
I know, you know, Roger, myboss, Kerhart, our head of
customer experience, does aswell.

(45:14):
We'll be right back.

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SPEAKER_02 (47:12):
And now back to the show.
Yeah, it's interesting.
You guys have a great team, andI'm saying that very sincerely
because I've got a chance tomeet each of you over the course
of the last year, year and ahalf.
And you know, when you start tomeet people throughout the
organization, you realizethere's like a consistent uh
commonality when you've got atop-performing team or a team of
all-stars like there, you tendto, and I find this through my
corporate experience, is thathot teams tend to gel and stay

(47:35):
together.
And then when you move to othercompanies, they tend to then
follow you as well.
So, like, you know, when youstart to realize, wait a second,
there's some strong talent here,you realize actually it's a
strong team and everyone's kindof bought in.
And and uh and so one otherthing I wanted to ask you, given
that you have that dynamic whereum as you know, Guido, Roger,
like the the uh one of thethings that I um very keen to

(47:57):
better understand is theindustry shifts and how things
because I don't pay a great dealof attention to loyalty, I just
realize the benefits of it as atraveler.
Um as you should but you're butyou're the one that's actually
you know kind of the the wizardthat's you know behind the
scenes that's creating the magicthat we otherwise would just
enjoy our travel experience.

(48:17):
So I want to know, you know,when I think about things like
tiers and status, you know, II'm always at the receiving end
of like whatever the update isfor my program to say, hey, this
is some of the things we'vechanged this year, or you know,
you now get to um uh you you getto make these decisions like
twice through the year based onearning your status again.
It was would you like moreupgrade credits?
Would you like to gift one to afriend?

(48:38):
What are like and so I'm alwayskeen on what's behind that
because I always I know for mydecision making, I know what I
see value in and I choose itright away.
I just want to use upgradecredits for sure.
I don't care about lounge passesfor other people.
It's like actually, you know, Iwant to use that to have an
upgrade myself so I can book theright class flight and get the
business class experience and uhbeing a business owner, like you

(48:58):
start to you know see what worksfor you.
Um, but in the background, whenyou guys are actually managing
these programs or makingrecommendations to your airline
partners, what's shifting andchanging?
Is it the tiers and the statuslevels?
Is that what resonates most?
Are we seeing um headed towardssomething else where you hit a
certain status at your statusfor life?
What are what are some of thethings that you see changing

(49:21):
within these programs?

SPEAKER_00 (49:22):
Look, I I think I think I mean this genuinely, I
think this is the renaissancetime actually to be a frequent
flyer, other than perhaps the80s where you could get away
with anything and nobody knew.
And you know, we won't talkabout that today, but there are
some incredible stories of oflore from the days.
You know, but I think now we wehit kind of your your question
hits on two things.
It's the personalization andit's the breakage.

(49:42):
You know, if I have a reallyexciting sounding marketing
benefit that you do not use, itis useless to you.
And you're actually frustratedwith me for offering you
something that was of no valuethat sounded great.
And so I think you know, thenthat goes into personalization
where it's like, I don't wantyou to not use this.
I do want you to use this, and Iwant you to use it the way you
want to use it.

(50:03):
And so those kind of milestonerewards or tier-based rewards or
adding flexibility, it kind ofhits that.
Like we want you to use thebenefit.
We want 100% uptake that, youknow, if you're an emerald
member, please come use alounge.
Absolutely.
Like we want you in there.
It's a great experience, and wehope that it's the thing that
drives you to stay loyal.
Uh and the same withpersonalization.
Like, you know, if if you'rechoosing between benefits, we

(50:26):
want to understand that becausethere's a profile there.
And and we can then dive furtherinto that.
Like once it's kind of like oncesomebody tips their hand a
little bit of the way they liketo think, we can go further.
Like, what else do you like tothink, Dan?
And and and that's the, I guess,from your kind of, you know,
behind the curtains, that's howI see it is, you know, the more
you give us, the more there's Ithink people are generally

(50:47):
somewhat surprised to hear likethe more we want to give you and
we want you to actually enjoyit.

SPEAKER_02 (50:52):
Well, and just getting your personal insights
on this, like when you look atthe uh opportunities that exist
for alliances, is theresomething that hasn't been
unlocked yet?
Is there something that you kindof see around the corner that is
like, actually, this is wherewe're headed, or maybe this is a
little too confidential for youguys to share because everyone
else is going to steal yourideas?

SPEAKER_00 (51:09):
I can tell them it'll take some time, but that
we're working on it.
You know, there I thinkflexibility is something that
I'm deeply passionate about.
And if you'd ever have me backon again after this, um perhaps
in a few months I can tell yousome more.
But flexibility, I think, is letyou be you on the day, right?
I'm intrigued.

SPEAKER_02 (51:28):
And yes, we'll definitely have you back for our
uh our summer list year.
But on the flip side, what is amisperception about airline
loyalty that you c often hearthroughout your career and then
also in your current role?
What is something that you thinkthat is actually you'd like to
correct course on today foranyone who may misunderstand
what the industry gets wrongabout airline loyalty?

SPEAKER_00 (51:48):
I think it's a deep desire to serve the customer.
I think you know we live in aninteresting time now of
transparency, and that is bothvery good, but it also means
that some things which existedneeded to be changed.
And so I think it's alwaysperceived in the worst possible
way.
Sometimes that's fair.
It is what it is.
But I I I think people would besurprised that actually it's uh

(52:08):
sometimes we this is why wecan't have nice things element
to it, where there were thingsthat existed which you know were
fairly unknown before, but thenyou know, 20 million Reddit
views later, everyone knows howto do it, and it's a problem.
So you adapt.
Uh that I I think is kind of ait's never as bad as people
think it is.
I've been very heartened andkind of happy to see how much

(52:31):
people care about driving goodcustomer outcomes.

SPEAKER_02 (52:34):
And I I take your point about seamless versus
frictionless.
So I've got one more questionfor you on uh kind of the future
of loyalty, and then I've got afew fun questions I want to wrap
up on.
But if we if yeah, if we if weYeah Well these are gonna be
more personal and get and getsome of your insights about how
you've used points and miles andlike, but um but yeah, in terms
of the future of loyalty, I knowyou mentioned frictionless more

(52:57):
so than seamless, and I thinkthat's a uh a much better way to
express it, since most that'swhat people are looking for,
myself in particular when itcomes to checking in, getting to
the airport, the whole currentpassport boarding pass reality
that we still live in.
Um if you could kind of paint apicture of what an ideal
frictionless uh experience lookslike uh for a global uh stat

(53:18):
high status loyalty member, um,what would that look like,
Gilbert?
What is the ideal state for you?
Because I'm I presume this iswhere you know you can't give
away all the things you'reworking on of what you know
what's coming in the next yearor two.
But ultimately we're we'reworking towards a better guest
experience for flyers.
And so I'd love to know what iskind of the ideal state.
What does that look like to you?

SPEAKER_00 (53:37):
I have a three three-word answer for you.
That's all I got.
And I'll preface that withsaying, you know, some of this
is outside of our control, someof it is is about airports, it's
about governments, but keep onwalking is that is that dream
state to me.
You know, it's that everythingbeing so frictionless that we
are able to, you know, issue youa digital boarding pass.
It's dynamic.
If your seat changes, it'shappening, you know, it's going

(54:00):
through security withoutstopping, without having all
these crazy things.
We're w there's a lot ofprogress that's been made there.
I mean, I don't I'm sure you youknow you travel all the time.
You it's starting to feel alittle bit better.
The scanners are finally beingunderstood.
Um, you know, there is ablueprint kind of of how that
could be in the future where itreally is happening, a kind of a
keep walking element.
And the same for entering alounge, the same for boarding a

(54:23):
plane.
You know, I think you there's abeautiful world out there.
It's not going to be this yearor the next year, you know, or
maybe five years from now.
But the technology enablement ofall of the things within the
travel space is happening at apace and scale which has never
existed in history.
You know, and I think there'sthere will be a day where, with
very few exceptions, you canpretty much just keep on walking

(54:46):
and and and get to your planeand have a and have that very
frictionless experience.

SPEAKER_02 (54:52):
Yeah, that sounds ideal to me.
And I think for those people whohave their own private jets that
already have that experience togo to a private airport and just
walk right on and whe wheels up,that is the you know, the but
for most of us who are flying umuh commercial, as it gets often
referred to, rather than privatePJs, um, we're flying
commercial, you have to checkin, you have to go through
security, you have to go throughcustoms, then you have to board

(55:13):
your plane.
So it is start, stop, start,stop, and that is certainly and
you end up giving the sameinformation multiple times to
different parties because theyhave different systems.
Um and I love the part that yousaid that I definitely uh also
agree with is that it isstarting to happen with
biometrics.
Like we see that when you checkinto your plane.
We see that now with uh atCustoms, and that is such a

(55:34):
wonderful way to arrive in theUK, arriving in Heathrow and
just scan, scan your face, andyou just walk through.
It is almost to that point.
So I um uh I think that willreally I think that will make a
huge difference for many of usfrequent travelers and also
bring more people that otherwiseare frustrated by travel.
My son, who um you met, who wasat the AFA conference, he's just

(55:57):
studying to become a pilot, andvery interesting.
He's one of the very few peopleI know that his favorite place
is airports.
And so most people at airportsis what we have to endure to get
to where team.

unknown (56:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:10):
He loves airports, he loves airplanes, he loves
that whole he loves that thatthat's his favorite part.
It's not about getting to thedestination, it's the truly is
the journey.
Um, Gilbert, let's wrap up on afew fun questions and then uh
I'll make sure that everyone canuh reach out to you, get more
information.
And um, but yeah, in terms ofyour experience, what would be

(56:30):
the best travel experienceyou've ever redeemed entirely
with points or miles?

SPEAKER_00 (56:35):
Probably a trip to Tokyo.
You know, I I always say as mykind of disclaimer advice,
points are not a savingsaccount.
You know, they do not typically,you know, uh add value over
time.
Use them, benefit from them.
The opportunities that you havetoday are as good as it's gonna
get.
Uh, you know, I redeemed pointsfor Katha Pacific first class
and the nose of the 747.

(56:55):
You can't fly a Katha 747, youknow, as a passenger anymore.
And so that in itself was rareand exquisite.
And then I use points uh for ahotel in Tokyo, which was the
end of that trip.
And so I think I I'm always thefondest of the experiences which
you cannot have anymore.
And having achieved them throughpoints makes them all the

(57:15):
sweeter.
And so, yeah, that's that's oneof those up there for me.
Also, 15 hours in first classfrom um Southeast Asia to
London, you know, in a suite.
Wow, that's an experience.
You get to, you know, to toenjoy the entire service, the
the food and beverage, and thenum sleep it off and then and

(57:35):
then wake up and feel freshagain on the other side.
So I will forever be gratefulfor 16 hours and total bliss and
comfort using points.
Those are a couple of the onesthat come to mind.

SPEAKER_02 (57:46):
Yeah, those are great.
Obviously, that's where you knowthat when those moments happen,
it was worth it all that timeand effort to build to get those
points.
You're just like, yes, this wasabsolutely worth it.
Um on status, one of the thingsthat I've certainly done is made
a uh done last-minute flights totry and maintain my status when
you realize that you're justbelow and even calling the
program.
You're like, if you're athousand, we'll we'll roll you

(58:07):
up.
But you you know, so I wouldlove to know if you or someone
you know, what's the mostoutrageous thing that you've
ever done or you've heardsomeone doing to maintain their
status?

SPEAKER_00 (58:16):
Well, f I I I the things I know we could go on for
hours about you know, there's anexample from the 80s where there
was a promotion, or 90s maybe,where there was a promotion that
allowed someone to earn creditsfor short haul flying on a
partner within Thailand.
And so the person employed likea hundred farmers in Thailand

(58:36):
and paid for their flights, theywould just take flights back and
forth because there was norestriction on who could
actually be earning on behalf ofthat person.
So the lure, as I said before,can go very, very deep on the
earn side.

SPEAKER_02 (58:50):
What else could that lead to?
Was that just a massiveredemption of like points and
miles?
Is that what they were trying todo?

SPEAKER_00 (58:55):
I think it was a massive redemption of points and
miles, and I think it might havebeen some status too.
Um yeah, there's a lot of that.
There's more than you'd expect.
Uh for for me, I have valuedstatus enough to go and chase it
at the end of the year.
Uh I also think people aren'talways perfectly in tune with
their tra their travel patterns.
You know, when you see thesethresholds change, people
sometimes think, oh, that'sridiculous.

(59:16):
But if you actually modeled itout, if you actually look at
what you've done, you'reprobably in line.
The programs are pretty good atfiguring out where most people
fall.
Yeah, I've chased status and youknow, I think that goes back to
offering a product or aproposition.
Certainly, you know, like ourOne World tiers, Ruby, Sapphire,
and Emerald, you know, are arethe tiers where I think you you
can really be grateful to haveit throughout the year and it is

(59:38):
worth chasing.
Uh and so I don't blame anybodywho who's going out there and
and and flying a One WorldAirline to to make sure they
have a great experience thefollowing year, too.

SPEAKER_02 (59:48):
Yeah, I'm certainly guilty of it, even if it's like
either a short a short haulflight just to make sure it puts
you over the top.
Uh I flew somewhere with my sonjust for the weekend so that we
could I could make sure I um gotto my status level.
But the thing for me, and I'msure many other business
travelers who have the privilegeuh of flying business class,
whether it's all the time orsome of the time, um, but one of

(01:00:08):
the doing a long-haul businessclass flight is the game changer
for your status, right?
There's like for me flying backdoing business class to
Australia each year, that wasthe difference maker to stay
super elite.
So it's like you have to buildthat into your repertoire.
You're like, at some point thisyear, I'm doing a business class
flight to Australia to make sureI maintain that status.
Because oftentimes, and now asyou know, uh a lot of these

(01:00:28):
programs are tying it to spendbecause some people were playing
the game of doing lots of theseshort hole low-value flights as
opposed to you know an expensive$10,000 flight like that that
the airline RFC earns a lot moremoney on.
So yeah, this place it continuesto so one more fun question for
you, and then we'll wrap up,which is um if you lost all your
status tomorrow, what programwould you personally bet on?

(01:00:50):
And I guess kind of like a bitof a, I mean, I I guess how can
you not say one world?
But it's almost like I want tosay outside of one world.
But you know, if you were tolose your status, it happened to
me after COVID that one year Igot grandfathered in and I
hadn't flown enough the nextyear to remain super elite.
And it's obviously it feelsterrible when you're out of the
club.
You almost like it, I felt lost,and I was have this deep sense

(01:01:10):
of longing to be back a part ofit.
So if you lost all your status,what would you personally bet on
to get you back in the game?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:16):
This isn't the party line.
I can say whatever, you know.
I I have the freedom to be to bevery honest.
We have a very generouscommunications team.
One World Emerald is the beststatus in the world.
It is the only airline uhalliance status that offers
first class benefits.
And I think you love yourstatus, but once you have, you
know, and that the businessclass level, once you go to

(01:01:37):
first class, wow, there is a lotthat you don't want to lose.
You know, it's that privatecheck-in experience, not just
the business class check-inexperience with a lot of
airlines.
It's the that higher level oflounge with the the nicer a
la-carte food and um, you know,um sushi and champagne.
So hey, you know, even if Iwasn't here, I would still say
the same thing.

(01:01:57):
And I think I have historically,so that that should check out if
you were to to check the tape.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:02):
Yeah.
And I'm sure there's many peoplelistening to this like, that
sounds pretty amazing.
Good luck, lucky for you thatare in that position.
So I'm I'm not otherwisetypically flying business.
It's certainly not first class.
And um, I see huge value evenjust uh, you know, I think most
uh mileage programs are mostlike at least if you get to like
a 50k status, there's enoughbenefits.
So one thing I would just say toall of our listeners that even

(01:02:24):
if they're not able to get tothe upper echelon, there's
always a point in a program thatis the minimum you want to earn
every year so that you getaccess to at least the priority
check-in and and essentialbenefits.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:38):
Such a great point.
You know, I think you know, forfor my partner, you know, flying
home with our kids from LosAngeles, has Ruby with One
World, which is our kind of, youknow, it's our first elite tier,
and it's a really reasonablethreshold to get to.
You do not need to be an uberfrequent traveler or a high
spender to get there.
And she was able to use thebusiness class check-in and save
about you know a significantamount of time on the check-in

(01:03:00):
process.
Um, and that when you have twoyoung kids is really helpful.
Uh and so I think there there'ssomething for everybody within
status.
It's it's about finding what'sright for you, finding what you
value, and then and then findinga way to get there.
And you know, it's my job tomake sure that uh and and Roger,
my boss, and all of us at OneWorld, it's it's our job to make
sure that it's a compellingenough proposition to deserve

(01:03:23):
your travel.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:24):
Well, I really appreciate making the time for
this.
I've certainly thoroughlyenjoyed our conversation.
It was great to meet you lastweek and terrific to follow up
now and have this opportunity torecord together.
I really appreciate being partof our loyalty series, and I
want to make sure that all ofour listeners can follow up with
you, Gilbert, directly or knowwhere to get more information
about One World.
So, what would be the best wayfor our listeners to do that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:42):
Yeah, Dan, it's an honor.
Thank you for having me.
Umneworld.com is a great placefor information.
Of course, keep up with ourmember programs uh if you have a
relationship with them.
If not, join one and you know,hope to see you in the skies.
I'm there often, so if we seeeach other, please do say hello.
Uh, it's really nice to meetpeople.
And I believe in the data pointof one.

(01:04:02):
I really like hearing people'sfeedback.
Even if it's a one-personfeedback, it's often very
indicative of what we need to bedoing.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:09):
Well, for all those people, Gilbert Ott is on
LinkedIn.
So Gilbert or Gibb, as you maybe able to reach out to him, as
at least that's one of hisfriends call him.
Um and Ott is OTT.
If you're uh looking at our shownotes or just trying to type his
name in to connect with him.
But Gilbert, thank you again.
I look forward to keeping intouch and seeing you in London
over the course of the year.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:27):
Thanks, Dan.
And fun fact, I learned that OTTin the UK means over the top.
So for anyone who doesn't knowthat, you're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Of course.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:35):
Great to speak to you.
And thanks to all of ourlisteners for joining us for
episode two of our loyaltyseries.
I really hope you enjoyedtoday's conversation with
Gilbert Ott, the director ofloyalty over at One World.
And as you heard me mention atthe beginning, this series is
kindly sponsored by our friendsover at Loyalty Status Co., who
are an award-winning technologycompany helping travel loyalty
programs drive customeracquisition, growth, and

(01:04:56):
ancillary revenue through theirelite status programs.
You can find out moreinformation at statusmatch.com
and loyaltystatus.com.
Now, next week's episode, I'mgoing to keep it a bit of a
surprise.
I alluded to the fact that we'regoing to be entering into the
accommodation space.
And so make sure you areregistered on the streaming
platform to be notified when newepisodes go live.

(01:05:16):
And of course, we do post clipsand highlights of all of our
interviews on our socialchannels so you can see clips
from our conversation withGilbert on Instagram, LinkedIn,
and YouTube.
So definitely check that out.
And don't forget to subscribe toour monthly newsletter that you
can find attraveltrendspodcast.com.
Thanks again for joining us.
And until next week, savetravels.