The Hidden Cost of Your Travel Tech Stack with WeTravel

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Travel
Trends Podcast.
This is your host, DanChristian, and today we have a
special spotlight episode thatis focused on something that
pretty much every travelbusiness struggles with, whether
they realize it or not, and thatis tech stack overload.
Most operators don't wake up oneday and decide that their

(00:25):
business needs to run acrossseven different platforms, but
over time, that's exactly whathappens: a booking system here,
a CRM there, a payments tool,spreadsheets, email marketing
software, the operations toolsthey need to function as a
business.
And before you know it, you'respending more time managing
systems than growing yourbusiness.
And that is what today'sconversation is all about.

(00:47):
Joining me here in a moment isJosh Chang, the chief product
officer at WeTravel.
And Josh spends his days talkingto travel operators of all sizes
and helping them shape theirproduct strategy in what is
really one of the fastestgrowing areas of travel.
WeTravel themselves has actuallygrown to nearly 400 team members

(01:08):
globally, and they work withthousands of multi-day tour
travel businesses around theworld.
One thing that Josh shared withme on this conversation that
really stuck is that after arecent product demo, a
prospective customer told theWeTravel team that they feel
like they're spending too muchtime buried in the details of
payments and administrationinstead of focusing on their

(01:28):
customers and growing theirbusiness.
And I'm sure that's a feelingthat many operators listening to
this can relate to.
So in today's conversation,we're going to explore why so
many travel businesses end upwith fragmented systems and what
that is actually costing them,why the industry is moving
forward to much more integratedplatforms, and how companies
like WeTravel are helpingoperators simplify their

(01:51):
operations while creating bettertravel experiences.
We're also going to get into AI,a very important topic and
something that all of ourlisteners know that I'm very
keen to discuss.
And what top performingoperators are doing differently
and where travel technology isheaded next.
And also, speaking of headednext, they have their big
conference coming up onSeptember 29th and 30th, 2026.

(02:16):
So make sure you register for WeTravel's fourth annual travel
innovation summit.
I've had the privilege to speakthe last couple of years.
It's an amazing conference and afantastic opportunity here from
industry leaders on what'sshaping the future of travel,
just like our podcast.
So let's get into it, Josh.
Welcome to Travel Trends.
Great to have you on thepodcast.

SPEAKER_00 (02:36):
Oh my God, Dan, so good to see you.
I think last time we had aconversation was back at your AI
summit.
That was super fun, and a lot'shappened in the industry in
terms of multi-day, in thesoftware industry, and like
everything you and I've beendoing.
So it's great to catch up.
I'm excited for thisconversation.

SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Yeah, I love that you were a part of that.
Obviously, we're big fans ofWeTravel, and I was very keen to
bring this spotlight episodetogether, not only because of
your involvement in multi-day,but also AI.
You had a significant fundraiseright around that time.
So it was great to bring youinto that conversation.
And you guys will be back lateOctober this year for our third

(03:14):
version of our summit.
But one of the things I wantedto bring you back on the podcast
for is actually to get a betterunderstanding of your
background, where WeTravel isheaded today, and obviously the
problem that you solved, whichis a very important one for an
industry that I absolutely love,which is multi-day.
And so, Josh, I want to startwith your background, though,
because you have a veryimpressive profile.

(03:35):
And I'm sure many of the peopleat the WeTravel team, as soon as
they had the opportunity tobring you on board, jumped at
the opportunity because it'svery rare that you have someone
that's worked at Microsoft,Amazon, that has experience at
Harvard, that worked at McKinseyand uh Uber as well.
I mean, just to think aboutthose uh large technology
companies and where WeTravel isand where it's headed, and

(03:57):
having you join us as the chiefproduct officer.
Tell us a little bit about yourbackground first and what got
you into travel.
Oh man, way to make me blush.

SPEAKER_00 (04:06):
But I actually think I'm the one who's incredibly
lucky to be in this position.
And I think about it as like acombination of personal
interests on one side comingtogether with a professional
background.
So it all like starts at a morepersonal level.
I actually grew up and lived onfour continents.
So that includes um obviouslythe US.

(04:28):
I lived in like, you know, bothcoasts and like a bit about
Middle America as well.
I lived in Korea, Brazil, UK,and now uh my family is in
Amsterdam.
So I always always like justappreciated being able to
experience new places and makenew friends.
Uh and I think it's like a bigpart of us being humans
together.

(04:49):
Then professionally, as youalluded to it, I've been
building business software foralmost 20 years, starting at
Microsoft back in 2008.
And that was when we built thefirst Office 365, which is like
one of the common like SaaStools out there.
And uh then I went on to buildtheir first CRM product.
And then like there are a fewother companies, and back in

(05:11):
2013, I went to an MBA programto advance my career.
And this is like when thepersonal interest starts to
creep back in, where I realizedthat MBA students go on these
things called internationaltracks.
And it has educational andfrankly like entertainment
components as well.
And uh they visit differentcompanies abroad to learn how

(05:34):
they do business, experience newculture, and like also, you
know, enjoy time together withtheir classmates bonding.
And some of them are run byprofessional tour operators,
maybe uh some folks on youraudience, and some are run by
students as amateurs.
So, as someone who grew upinternationally, I just got
excited about this concept andran two international trips

(05:56):
myself.
It's about 50 people each, soabout$100,000 in bookings each,
excluding the flights.
And that's like the first momentwhen I really got hooked on the
concept of multi-day travel.
And it was a quite custom, youknow, uh trip in that sense.
And it brought so much joy.
I could physically see it in myclassmates' eyes when we're on

(06:18):
the trip.
And now, like 10, 15 yearslater, we still talk about it
when we meet up at reunions.
And like, you know, people stillremember uh the time we had,
people still remember how Iarranged the trip and also sold
them the trips, right?
And I remember also the absurdamount of work uh that went into

(06:39):
making it happen.
I used to go to bed at 3, 4 a.m.
Um, and like that's given me somuch respect for all the
operators.
And ever since then, I alwayswanted to like make it easier to
deliver these kind of likebucket list experiences.
And that's why when the rightopportunity came along, and we
traveled about two and a halfyears ago, for me to package all

(07:01):
of those my past experiences andcome help lead product
development and contentdevelopment so that operators
can deliver those bucket listexperiences easier and focus on
that human experience.
I just had to jump on thatopportunity.
So I feel like the professionalexperience gave me the
capability to do it, but it'sthe personal interest that like

(07:23):
gets me excited to wake up at5:30 a.m.
every day to like give theoperators the features that's
gonna help them.

SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Yeah, well, that was clear from the moment we met
that you have a very strongpassion for travel and the
industry itself, and I thinkthat goes uh a long way, but you
also then have the thebackground and the knowledge to
really be able to back that up.
And you mentioned obviouslybeing based in Amsterdam.
In my introduction, Ihighlighted that the company is
based in Amsterdam and you'vegot more than 250 people that

(07:51):
are uh you know across 50countries.
One of the things that's alsounique and important about your
background is the fact that youhave a global perspective and so
many multi-day tour operators,they're taking people from one
source market and setting themto another destination market.
And the number of companies thatI have worked with in the
multi-day tour space that havesent me a WeTravel link to be
able to pay for my trip.
And when I was heading toGalapagos, that was the first

(08:14):
time that I really came acrossWeTravel.
And obviously, I know a lot ofyour great colleagues that work
at WeTravel and we've been inclose contact over the years
ever since.
But one of the things I wantedto get into is your role.
So, chief product officer now atWeTravel.
And then I also want to give ourlisteners a bit more
understanding about the businessfrom your vantage point.
But tell us a little bit aboutyour role as a chief product

(08:35):
officer.

SPEAKER_00 (08:35):
Yeah, sure.
And and before I go to that, yousaid something about Galapagos.
I love that commentary becauseback in 2017, my wife and I
actually went to GalapagosIsland with an Ecuadorian
operator.
And last year, she started usingWe Travel to run her trips.
So it's very much like I wasyour customer, now you're my
customer.

(08:55):
How do we help you bettersituation?
Like, even crazier, uh, she'sactually a Dutch woman who's um,
you know, moved to Ecuador.
And like last time she was inthe Netherlands visiting her
family with her kids.
Uh, I was able to invite her toour office, and then we actually
got to connect.
So I actually feel quiteimmersed in the industry now.

(09:17):
And that's probably the best wayto explain my role as chief
product officer.
I I think about like my numberone job is how do I get as
native with the industry aspossible so that I can guide my
team in building the softwareand the content that's gonna
help uh travel operatorsactually create these

(09:38):
life-changing trips, uh, whichare their products, and then
deliver them.
And we sit behind the scenes.
It's not about us.
We're there as a tool so that umtravel operators don't have to
live 10 hours, 11 hours a day uhcrouched in front of their
laptop.
Uh instead, we want the softwareto do the work for them.
We want the AI to do the workfor them so they can spend the

(10:00):
time uh talking to thetravelers, giving them what
sense of what the trip's gonnabe, and uh hopefully actually
out there like running the tripsand delivering that experience.
So I think about my role asthat.
Um at a more practical level, wehave um about like getting close
to like 100 RD team members.
And uh my job is to structurethat organization into different

(10:23):
components, and we can latertalk about what are the 10
things that we travel uh canhelp travel operators with.
But like you can imagine thosehundred people uh structured
into 10 different objectives,and uh my job is almost like
allocation of like attention sothat each of those things are
moving in the right direction toactually create value for travel
operators.

SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
That's great.
I appreciate you sharing thatbecause obviously, yeah, as you
say, your chief product officerrole is very closely tied to the
business you're in and theproblem that you solve.
So I think actually it'sprobably a good starting point
for our listeners, especiallyfor those people that are not
familiar with Reach WeTravel,aside from maybe what I shared
in the introduction.
I'm sure there are many of ourlisteners too that have gotten

(11:04):
to know you guys uh throughoutour uh summit and our podcast.
But I would love having you herenow and the opportunity to dive
into it to actually give somecontext to WeTravel and from
your vantage point, explain tous what WeTravel does and the
problem you solve in theindustry.

SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, the one liner is likeWeTravel help travel operators
grow their bookings, um, collectpayments efficiently, as in not
pay those hidden fees, and uhmanage their trips.
And it's it's a bit easier tolike talk about WeTravel in
terms of our history andevolution.
People always like thenarrative.

(11:40):
And uh We travel now.
Um it's funny, last time wetalked, we were at about 250
people and we've now grown toclose to 400 people.
Um, and that's all in order tobuild hopefully the best
one-stop shop software fortravel operators.
And then it's not just thesoftware, it's the people behind
it that make all of theseoperations happen.
And it all started back in kindof mid to early 2010s, and

(12:05):
that's when like multi-dayindustry, I believe, was like
starting to sell really bigticket bucket list trips online,
and at least like starting tocollect payments online at that
stage.
And that's when we startedmaking it easy to build one
beautiful online trip pages,right?
Because you're transitioningfrom printed papers to online

(12:25):
pages to get the trips reviewedand actually uh sold.
And then uh it ended up backthen, like already looked better
than Xpedia and Airbnb.
And we also made it easy tocollect payments around the
world reliably, quickly withoutdelays or things getting stuck.
Um, and we made it easy to paysuppliers already back then as

(12:48):
well.
And it's not just the software,we started to build out a team
of payment operations expertswho would make sure that
payments are going through uhsmoothly.
And if there's any issue, weactually have people who's there
around the clock, around theworld to help our travel
operators manage those payments.
If you have any disputes, ourteam will stand behind you and
help you through that.

(13:09):
And then around like 2020s,online presence has kind of have
become table stakes, andmulti-day businesses started to
need to present their productsin the most compelling way.
And that's when we travel sawthis like coming up already
because we run these bigsurveys, we run interviews, we
do trend reports, and because wewere able to see that operators

(13:32):
are picking up additionalsoftware to different to do
different parts of their jobs,um, and many of them are
starting to ask, hey, can wetravel help me with this also?
Because I already use you forpayments.
And that organically grew us tothis now almost 400 people
company that helped travelcompanies with not just the
payments, but also thismarketing and sales, also the

(13:54):
trip operations, also findingand working with the suppliers
and on and on.

SPEAKER_01 (13:57):
What's interesting about that, and given that one
of the challenges that multi-daytour operators have is
technology.
It's one of the big industry uhchallenges across travel in
general, because most peoplethat get into this space are not
getting into it to solvetechnology problems.
They're getting it into itbecause they want to offer a
great guest experience.
And to your point about thepartners you end up working

(14:18):
with, they've created thesefantastic brands, these amazing
itineraries, and they're veryfocused on their guests having
the best possible experience.
And then they need to figure outhow they manage websites and
having a reservation platformand how they collect payments,
manage these bookings, paypartners, all things that I know
that are core to your platform,but ultimately you also need to
be able to sell and createbeautiful itineraries.

(14:40):
And so it's interesting to seethe evolution, and I appreciate
you walking us through thatbecause you know people may be
familiar with one aspect of theWeTravel platform, but not have
a full perspective of all theproblems it now solves, because
it has become the operatingsystem for multi-day tour
businesses, and obviously that'syou know part of the mission of
WeTravel going forward.

(15:00):
Tell us a little bit about thechallenge for a lot of operators
in this space, because as wekind of set the stage, many of
our listeners are certainly touroperators, and that's a big part
of my background, as you know.
And so for me, I would alwayssay on stage, unlike the OTAs,
the online travel agencies, whenI was at a focus right
conference, and they would saythings like, We're a technology

(15:22):
company, not a travel company.
And I would always get on stageand say, We're a travel company,
not a technology company.
I'm not confused about thatbecause our first commitment is
to the guest and theirexperience.
But we travel very much is atechnology company.
And so tell us a little bitabout what you've seen as the
challenges in this fragmentedspace and where you think

(15:42):
obviously we travel is solvingfor that.
But let's kind of set the stagefor all of our listeners about
the challenges and the costs ofrunning a very fragmented
business.
And uh, I'll just finish myquestion by saying that Douglas
Quinby, who many people know hasbeen on our podcast, one of the
co-founders of Arrival, recentlydid a report on multi-day as we
were preparing for the arrivalconference in Valencia.

(16:03):
And his statement was multi-dayis a mess and still is.
So he highlighting the fact thatthis injury is still fragmented.
So much of this uh activity isstill offline.
So there's still a huge up,there's still a huge problem to
solve, I guess is the overallpoint.
But yeah, tell us a little bitabout the challenges you've seen
with companies running on somany different platforms and how

(16:24):
we got to where we are.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
And uh there's a probably a multi-parse to this
answer, and I want to break itdown into like bicep chunks so
that it all makes sense.
And the top of the line is it'sall about time and um
fragmentation, as you said.
Um, so I almost want tovisualize what this looks like

(16:47):
for the audience.
There's so much time that goesinto running these operator
multi-day businesses uh that theoutside world doesn't realize.
And then the second thing is umall this work sounds
adventurous, sounds beautiful,but in reality, so much of it is
like people 11 hours a daycrouched over their laptop, and

(17:07):
I call it like the back painproblem.
So uh let me maybe start bysharing my own experience.
We can build up from there.
Um, and I experienced like amilder version of this about 15
years ago running those studenttrips, right?
Like for MBA students.
And like the expectation of MBAstudents is they've all

(17:28):
internationally traveled by thetime they come to an MBA and
they were like, ah, I canorganize this.
So they see the value in beingable to travel together with
classmates, but uh they don'tquite realize how much effort
that goes into arranging all ofit.
So that's the expectation.
And on the reality side of it,um, I was calling off the beaten
path restaurants, whether inlike, you know, Chapada

(17:51):
Jimantina in Brazil or differentparts of Seoul at odd hours from
uh my like dorm room in Boston.
And the person I would get onthe other side at the restaurant
either doesn't speak English oris not the manager, right?
Uh and and uh they're busyactually serving the lunch or
dinner, and they just tell me tocall back in about three hours.

(18:13):
And I have to make one, two,three calls just to get to the
right person.
Um, and there's explaining whatthis group trip is, negotiating
on the menu, figuring out thepayment terms and the price in
the local currency.
And then back in 2013, it was athing to have to explain what
gluten-free meant.

(18:33):
Because on a 50 people group, wedefinitely had gluten-free
people.
Um, and I would have to do thatfor about 14 restaurants for
each of these trips.
And the reason why I mentionedthat is there is so much of the
time that goes into arrangingall of this.
And while I was making thosephone calls, I'm tracking all of

(18:53):
these motions with a spreadsheethunched over a laptop.
So that's like the visual of thechallenge that the operators are
having.
And the hard thing is, fastforward to today, that stuff
hasn't gotten like actuallyeasier because AI isn't gonna
make those phone calls easierfor me, right?
I can probably have a little bitof like easier translation

(19:15):
experience, but other than that,it's equally hard.
And AI has also madeexpectations uh rise.
So, like that that's like onepart, and we can kind of call
that uh time and expectationmismatch of like the effort that
goes into making these tripshappen.
Does that resonate, Dan, beforewe kind of go into like the

(19:35):
second part of the answer?

SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
Yeah, very much so.
I just wanted to add somethingtoo to that, Josh, especially
from my background experience,which has been largely
multi-day, the travelcorporation, G Adventures.
And at G Adventures, we built alot of our technology in-house.
TTC, the travel corporation, youknow, had built their own
reservation platform, but workedwith a number of different
partners.
Uh certainly in CRM, we'd movedover to Salesforce for many of
the companies in the business.

(19:56):
We worked with different paymentproviders.
And, you know, when I talk aboutfragmentation, and obviously you
know this very well, it's thefact that a lot of these uh tour
operators, they started off withsome way to manage their
business, which wasspreadsheets, and then they
needed to find out you know howto have create a reservation
platform.
They obviously needed paymentand booking tools, they needed
to find a way to createitinerary builders, and many

(20:18):
people might have gone out andtried to find a company that
actually allowed them to buildmore beautiful itineraries, and
they had CRM, and they're tryingto figure out how they take that
fragmented stack uh and tie itall together for a great user
experience, which adds a wholeother layer of complexity.
And one thing that I saw that Ithink you'll appreciate as well,
given, you know, you look at acompany like the Travel

(20:39):
Corporation and brands likeTrafalgar and Insight and
Kentiki, one of the things thatwe had to do, despite the fact
we manage our websites, wemanage our reservation platform,
is that we actually had ourtravel directors.
They go by different names, ofcourse, they're a tour manager
or a travel leader.
Um, but one of the things theyneeded was the list of details
of the incoming guests andthings like you just mentioned

(20:59):
about gluten-free dietary.
And so one of the tour leaderswho had some technical savvy
built a robust spreadsheet toingest information from guests,
and it was so successful hestarted selling it to other tour
leaders and built his own littleSaaS business until the uh the
team at headquarters realizedwait a second, we need to bring

(21:20):
this guy in and have him show uswhat he's built so we can build
this into the main platform.
But that just shows you howdisintegrated um the platforms
are today and how fragmentedthese are these tools are.
So so yeah, so I think that setsthe stage pretty well for the
complexity of this space becauseone of the things obviously we
want to talk about in a momentis how all of these tools are

(21:40):
consolidating and you haveproviders that are trying to
solve for more than one aspect.
So people may know we travel isthe payment option, but the
reality is now they can use itfor most of what they need to do
to run their business.
Um yeah, take us through thesecond part of that, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Yeah, absolutely.
So um I probably talked to atthis point like hundreds of
operators and And I couldprobably give a like average
range of number of tools thatthey'll name on those calls.
And it goes something like sixon the low end to more than 15
on the high end.
And like some of the things thatyou listed are exactly what

(22:14):
those are.
Like people will need maybe Wixfor website management, they'll
have HubSpot for CRM.
They'll use an itinerarybuilding tool, maybe Canva,
maybe something specific tomulti-day.
Then you have a bookingplatform.
And then payments is wherethings get really interesting
because it's not just one tool.
Many companies use at least twotools for collecting payments

(22:36):
because you have differentcurrencies and you have
different payment methods thatrequire different tools.
And you need a third tool justto collect payments from
businesses, if you're DMCcollecting from travel agencies,
or if you are direct traveloperators selling to churches,
schools, businesses, right?
So those are like you knowbigger batch payments.

(22:57):
And uh you might need anothertool just to pay your suppliers
or multiple tools, and it justkind of goes on and on and on.
And it made sense over the lastlike 15 years for travel
companies to pick up one toolafter another, because you are
hunched over the laptop spendingso much time, you're trying to
automate each piece.
And it's almost like thiscurvature where initially the

(23:18):
value is increasing, increasing,increasing, and then there's a
diminishing return for the nexttool number seven and eight.
And then by the time you hittool number eight, nine, ten,
it's actually coming back downbecause the tool itself helps
you, but it causes you to nowhave to synchronize information
across 10 different tools.
And now instead of having twotabs on your laptop, you have 20

(23:40):
tabs that you're just cyclingthrough.
And maybe your boss asks you,hey, like, why is this thing not
the same data as this thing?
Or like travelers surprisedthat, hey, why how come you
didn't know about my um youknow, vegetarian diet?
Because that information livesin a different system than the
expression you use to send that,send to the uh tour leader that
then you talked about.

(24:00):
So I think like that's where theindustry is in most places
today.
And that's kind of what'smotivated we travel over the
past two years to expandourselves uh from just payments
and bookings to I kind of callthis uh like booking and
payments is in the middle.
It'll always be our core.
And then we're solving the leftside of it, which is uh

(24:22):
marketing, sales, and actuallylike driving towards the
booking, and then the right sideof it, which is you got the
booking, now what?
Right?
Like the now what part isactually a lot of time, uh, such
as collecting uh maybe umwaivers for adventure trips or
collecting those informationabout dietary restrictions,
who's gonna be your roommate?
And there's so many things tofigure out that it just, as we

(24:44):
discussed earlier, like justsucks up the time.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Well, and so you get all the way down that uh flow,
you've convinced a guest to takea trip with you, you've done the
marketing, whether a brochure orwebsite, you've paid on digital
marketing, and then they'refinally at the point of
checkout.
And we would typically see, youknow, that uh, and I don't want
to call it any one specificbrand, but um across the
industry, it might be less thana 1% conversion rate.

(25:07):
And the people it wouldn't, anda stat that I could certainly
share from my experience is that90% of the people like drop off
in the booking process.
And so you know the people thatstart step one that finally get
to whether it's a four-stepprocess or more, you know,
you're now left with 10% of thepeople.
And one of the the final step isthe payment uh process, which is
whether their mailing address orthe credit card detail.

(25:29):
So this was often what operatorswere looking at it to try and
just solve that one problem ofpayments.
And this is the part that alwaysintrigued me because you're
trying to offer more paymentoptions, you're trying to give
people flexibility to havepartial payments or just to
collect an initial deposit.
And that was always the chasmthat you had to get your
customer to cross that wasalways difficult.

(25:50):
So many people would call in onthe phone.
They would, you know, that's abig factor.
When you look at companies likeTor Radar, still 70% of the
bookings occur offline.
So people are speaking tosomeone over the phone and
giving their credit card detailsbecause this is a high-touch
product.
And so the one question I wantedto ask you, given the background
on WeTravel, just being focusedinitially on the payment side.

(26:10):
So all of a sudden, in thatexample with a company, um, the
operator that clearly both of usexperience in the Galapagos,
that were turning it over toWeTravel to make sure that the
customer could book with uhconfidence and the business
could get paid and the wholeprocess would flow.
What does it look like when youjust think about a platform as a

(26:31):
payment solution?
Because I think this is one ofthe things that I've also
learned over my time, especiallyon uh paid performance
marketing.
You know, one of the things I'msure you're very familiar with
and many of our listeners too isan abandoned cart.
You know, if people haven'tconverted, you know, how do you
make sure that you can stilleither remark to them or message
them again and bring themthrough the process?
So what gets lost, I guess, ismy ultimate question if you are

(26:54):
just focused on the payment sideand not having that integrated
throughout your entire techstack.

SPEAKER_00 (26:58):
Yeah, and I I may have like undersold we travel in
a way on earlier parts becauseum we have always thought about
it as we're like payment plus,where it's been about 10 years
since we had this concept ofabandoned card convergence.
So because we're the booking andpayment system, if a traveler,
if operator is using WeTraveland then traveler is going

(27:20):
through your WeTravel checkoutand they drop off, we will
automatically notify you, theoperator, and also give uh
reminder emails in an automatedway to the traveler.
And that's being able to, like,say, like you mentioned, hey,
90% drop off.
Um, imagine being able to bringback 10, 20% of it back, and
that can be a huge boost to therevenue.

(27:41):
And that's what we've been ableto see over the last 10 years of
like our clients enjoying thatextra revenue.

SPEAKER_01 (27:47):
Well, and that's where I guess that where the
modern day operator is lookingat this setup that they've
configured over the last 10 or20 years, however, they've been
in business, and especially newoperators are listening to this
to avoid the pitfalls of thepast when these consolidated
solutions didn't exist.
Because the reality is not onlyare they losing revenue, but
it's obviously costing them timeand it's it's obvious in it's
costing them business.

(28:08):
And so where do you see thatthey are losing business?
Because I'm sure you have areally interesting vantage
point, and depending on whatyou're able to share, Josh, in
terms of you know, theconversion rate increases when
someone moves over to WeTravelor what they're currently
experiencing in the inefficiencyof their setup.
Um so obviously, costing revenueis probably one of the biggest
concerns people have is that allof a sudden if they are if if

(28:30):
they could increase theirconversion rates, that could be
really meaningful to theirbusiness.
But the reality is they'relosing out on business today if
they are not if they are notoptimizing towards uh having the
right tech stack in place.

SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
Yeah, and it happens at many layers.
One is like your checkout maynot be converting, right?
But it happens at the checkout,it happens at your website, it
happens at you know any part ofthe funnel.
And uh the the examples of likeoutstanding operators are, for
example, we have Matteo, whoruns Be in Italy, an amazing DMC

(29:03):
in Italy.
And he's been using WeTravel forthe last couple years, and every
single year he's been able toincrease his sales by 50%.
Because it's not just a checkoutconversion.
Uh, he's one of our um, youknow, early user groups who's
going to be in interviews withus while we're building the
tools.
So he's always trying the newestand the greatest, and that

(29:25):
allows him to have that edgewhere he started with us with
three team members and hasn'treally grown his team, but he's
been able to grow his business50% at a time at share because
he's getting that leverageacross uh probably like about 10
different steps that hisbusiness requires.
And we have Sandra from uh samewave in Australia, it's a surf

(29:48):
shop who have presence in othercontinents as well.
And she used to juggle thepatchwork, as she would say, of
PayPal for one type of payment,another tool for international
payments, and many, many, manyspreadsheets like I used to
have.
And uh she couldn't expandinternationally, and now she's
gonna expand to two othercontinents.
So those are examples where it'snot just the conversion, but

(30:11):
this fragmentation actuallymeans you you can't actually
scale your business two times,five times, ten times.
You gotta consolidate your techstack in order to transform your
business.
Uh and like that's like a topicthat I actually feel quite
passionate about.

SPEAKER_01 (30:26):
Well, and the other thing that's also unique to a
multi-day tour experience forguests is that there can be
changes along the way to anitinerary.
And when the uh there was apartner that actually had built
a app for Trafalgar, and I hadthe chance to road test it
before it went out, and the appthat was built was unfortunately
not fit for purpose, and I thatwas clear to me right away

(30:48):
because the app had some coolfeatures around being able to
build out journals or be able tocheck the weather, which clearly
you don't need an app to do.
But at the same time, they uhthe they missed a very important
piece of functionality, which isthe itinerary itself and the
day-to-day change of thatitinerary.
So the itinerary that existedwithin the app was the itinerary
that's on the website.

(31:09):
And that is obviously what andeveryone who's traveled in
multi-day knows that thoseactivities can change by virtue
of weather, by virtue of uh uhthe partnerships on the ground.
And that's why you need a greattour guide to make sure that
they're essentially the onesthat are managing that
experience for their guests.
And the thing that shocked me,Josh, because I was looking at
the app, and then at thebeginning of each morning, I

(31:30):
would get a piece of paper underthe door of the hotel, and I
would look at that plan for theday compared to what was on my
phone.
I was like, this is different.
And so um, one of the thingsthat they needed to figure out
was how to integrate changes tothe itinerary because you know,
routes close or there'sunexpected events that come up.
And this is a this to me was agreat example of like how flawed
the process was um when thingswere so disconnected.

(31:52):
And so ultimately, really, youwere just relying on giving the
information to the guide and theguide telling their guests, but
guests want to have the digitaltools, they want to be
connected, they want tounderstand what's happening.
And it it seemed crazy to me,and this is only going back
about five years, Josh, thatthis is kind of the reality for
guests.
I mean, things have evolved alot since then.
But tell us I think that's agood use case, but um, like

(32:15):
sudden disruptions like a rootclosure, like how do you make
sure that uh you know I guessthe flip side of that is that if
you have a fully connectedsystem, you're gonna be able to
manage that.
But I know that's a big weaknessof disconnected systems today.
So is that something that youguys have come up against with
uh some of your existingclients?

SPEAKER_00 (32:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
And like that, that example, Iprobably have 20 other ones that
have motivated some of our workas well.
And what you described isessentially as a tour operator,
tour guide, um, I know there's aroot closure, and but I can't
physically go update 20different systems in time before
the guests wake up.

(32:52):
So I'm actually bypassing all ofthese digital tools that we're
paying for, and then choosing tojust print a piece of paper and
then slip it under the door,right?
Uh so it's actually a shame.
And um, that's why we seeclients like Matteo, who are
having the fastest growth rates,be able to connect these
otherwise fragmented systems.
So that guide, next time thathappens, and if they're using uh

(33:16):
running the business the wayMateo does, would be able to
simply update the itinerary onhis side, and it'll update
across all of the views andsystems down to what the
suppliers are gettingcommunicated to.
Um and the travelers in themorning would just wake up, log
into the app, and they'll beable to see, okay, like I guess
this is our route today.

(33:37):
And then they may not evenrealize there was a root
closure.

SPEAKER_01 (33:40):
Yeah.
Well, and this is where itdefinitely seems like 2026 and
beyond, we're at an inflectionpoint for the industry in terms
of customers' expectation fromtechnology and tour operators
choosing the right partners.
And I think the consolidation isa very important one because
unfortunately there are a lot oftour operators out there that
are listening to this, realizingthat that is their reality of

(34:01):
their situation.
And it's still very challengingto operate a business like that.
The good news overall is thatthat there now is solutions in
place that can alleviate a lotof that stress, uh, uh, help
them drive more revenue, andmost importantly, and just run a
more efficient business.
So if that is where we findourselves, what do you think is
driving that shift?
Obviously, we've hit on some ofthe problems, but what do you

(34:21):
think is happening now that'senabling these tour operators to
be able to find a platform, youknow, like We Travel to be able
to solve all their businessneeds as opposed to just one use
case?

SPEAKER_00 (34:31):
I actually find it to be like a natural evolution
of all these hospitalityindustries and their tech stack.
Um, for example, I used to workin restaurant technology.
Um, and back then, and and Iactually worked inside of a
restaurant as a line cook uh inone of my past backgrounds
that's not on LinkedIn as well.
Uh and what I what I noticed isrestaurants were originally all

(34:52):
pen and paper and cash register,right?
And then they'll pick up a POS,they'll pick up an ordering
system, they'll pick up aticketing system.
And over time, each of themsaves time, but it just gets
expensive, and the fragmentationmeans order came in, but doesn't
show up in the kitchen.
And it's just like a total chaoswhere wrong dish gets served.
And companies like Toast wouldthen come around to consolidate

(35:15):
the tech stack.
So now the restaurants can justuse one thing and they know it's
all interconnected.
And restaurant, given the volumeof restaurant businesses out
there, were an earlier phase.
They probably went through thistransition about 10 years ago.
And now I'm seeing multi-daytravel go through the same
transition with companies likeWeTravel being on the forefront

(35:37):
of making that happen.

SPEAKER_01 (35:38):
Well, and let's talk about what that actually looks
like because I have a touroperator I work closely with on
the travel trends advisory side,and I was really uh shocked.
And uh, when they uh came onboard when I was reviewing all
their platforms, one of thedecisions they had made around a
CRM tool and a reservationplatform, they worked with a I'm
not gonna call out the specificcompany, but I'm just gonna

(35:59):
highlight this ex example as acautionary tale, which is they
have worked with a lot of DMCs,but they have not worked with an
operator like them before, andthey kind of sold them on the
idea that they could build asolution for them.
But obviously that technologyplatform was also trying to
build for them, knowing thatthey can sell it to many other
people.
And they thought, you know,you'll be first and you'll come
on the journey with us.
And six months later, theplatform is still not

(36:21):
integrated, they still have notbeen able to connect uh their
systems, the bookings are stillnot live, and they're incredibly
frustrated and it's negativelyimpacting their business.
And I, you know, it was I feltterrible for them once I
understood.
And then it would become, well,how do you unpack this and how
do we quickly switch to anotherprovider?
And it's like you've investedwe've sunk so much money into
this already, and you're havingthat that difficult decision.

(36:42):
So let's talk about an idealscenario where you have
marketing, sales, payments, andoperations all live in one
place.
And from your view, you know,why that's so important for all
of the kind of the tripmanagement to live in a single
system.
So, what is what does a bestcase scenario look like and when
it works optimally?
What are some of the benefitsthat you've seen?

SPEAKER_00 (37:02):
Yeah, and like, you know, like not to be too like
proud, um, but that this isexactly the future WeTravel is
building towards.
So is it okay if I start to kindof like break it down in terms
of how I personally see it andthen go a little bit into
WeTravel?

SPEAKER_01 (37:16):
Yeah, I think that would be really helpful for our
listeners.
So, you know, you mentionedbefore about the 10 steps.
So for sure, break it down.

SPEAKER_00 (37:22):
Let's do that.
Awesome.
So, like the 10 steps for methat we are like basically about
completing now is starts withwhat we call presence.
So that's step one.
That means a great website thatyou build on top of WeTravel, or
we actually build for you thatis SEO optimized.
You get the traffic from Google,but then you also get noticed by

(37:42):
ChatGPTs and Cloud and Gemini ofthe world.
And uh, we're also piloting,managing, you know, paid ads,
social blogs, whatnot for travelcompanies.
So that gives you the presenceto drive the traffic, right?
Um, and the next step two is theCRM.
And the CRM, then as you'retelling in the cautionary tale,

(38:03):
really needs to be able tounderstand the full context of
the traveler that's giving youan inquiry.
And step three is what I calltrip planning and proposal.
And that's the good olditinerary, the proposal.
What's the library behind itthat powers all of that?
And um, just like CRM has theconnectivity issue, most
operators that I talk to useactually different systems for

(38:26):
itinerary versus quoting.
That means entering the sameinformation in two different
places, just so you can have thevisuals and descriptions versus
the financials.
So that's three.
Step four is resourcemanagement.
Um so if you have guides, if youhave hotel nights, if you have
equipments, you need to makesure that you're not overselling
them so that it doesn't getchaotic and you can actually

(38:46):
deliver those experiences.
That's like first four steps.
And combined, I think about thatas like marketing, sales, and
like that side of the story.
And that's really, reallypowerful and fully
interconnected in WeTravel Now.
The next bucket is the bookingand payments.
So step five is where you haveconversion optimized checkout

(39:07):
that's also going to remind ifanybody drops off and it allows
you to collect payments.
And this is actually asignificant thing because if
you're you know getting paymentsfrom uh travelers all over the
world, you need to be able to uhhave them pay in their preferred
payment method.
I'm in the Netherlands rightnow.
In the Netherlands, 60% of thepayments online are done through

(39:29):
a payment method called IDEAL.
It's a form of instant uh directdebit payment method, and
everybody uses that and notcredit card.
It can be a surprise for anybodyelse.
Oh, it's a Western country, howcome they're not using a credit
card?
So it's like very cultural, veryspecific.
And if your travel checkout pagedoesn't offer Ideal, they're
just gonna bounce.
And no amount of reminder isgonna get them back.

(39:51):
So that's a key thing.
And once you've got travelerpayments, it's a step five.
Step six is how do you pay yoursuppliers?
And every supplier wants to getpaid in a different way.
And with WeTravel, that's alsobecoming one-stop shop where you
have the fund coming intoWeTravel.
You can, it's your money, youcan fully control it, and you
can pay out using a virtualcredit card.

(40:12):
This is how, for example,Booking.com and Expedia pay
hotel partners, and hotelpartners are used to receiving
this, and now travel companiescan have the kind of tools that
the big guys used to have byusing WeTravel.
You can also pay through wiretransfer or international
transfer.
And finally, you can onboardyour suppliers into WeTravel and
you can send a Venmo style likein-network payment that's

(40:36):
instant-free across anycurrencies.
So that's six.
Seven is across all of this, youhave to think about the currency
mechanics.
You can be an American companywho's receiving American
travelers and sending them toparts of Latin America.
Then you have suppliers in LatinAmerica.
How do you pay them?
How do you do currency exchange?

(40:56):
And you could be an Americancompany receiving travelers from
Europe.
They want to pay in euro.
How do you make sure thatthey're not going to be screwed
over by your payment companywith the two, three percent
markups and then hidden 2%cross-border fees on top, which
adds up to 5% easily on top ofcredit card processing fee?
That's sick.
So if you if you add um five,six, and seven, that's big in

(41:20):
booking and payments.
Then the final step is actuallygetting ready for that trip.
Now that you've sold andcollected the money and paid the
suppliers, it's like, what now amoment?
Okay, you're running anadventurous trip, maybe to
Galapagos Islands.
You gotta collect that uh waiversignature.
And the traditional method istravel companies would export a

(41:40):
spreadsheet and then makeDocuSign links for each of them
and then have to email themindividually and chase them.
It takes about 10 hours if youinclude all the chasing that you
have to do.
Instead, it's all automated inWeTravel.
And same thing if you need tocollect any dietary information,
uh, what seat they want on theflight, and on and on and on.
So we call that travelerinformation collection.

(42:02):
And when you've got all that,step nine um uh is how do you
combine all that into a manifestor rooming list or flight list
and give it to your suppliers sothat they have it.
Um and um after all that, um,you want to uh be able to manage
all of that in one place.
So uh many organizers may beusing Monday.com or other things

(42:24):
for project management, and thatcan be done within WeTravel as
like a final uh bow uh to bringit all together.
So that's kind of like the10-step process I think about.
And what I envision is in thefuture, you can use WeTravel for
any of those 10 steps, or youcan bring, oh, I actually really
like my Salesforce.com as CRMsystem because I spent$50,000

(42:47):
customizing it, but I want touse WeTravel for everything
else.
Then how do I do that?
And that's where we want to makesure, and we are making sure
that our system is interoperablewith any other systems out there
that you want to use, and wehave the partnership in place to
help you essentially bring othersystems on board so that even
when you want to use WeTraveland something else, it's again

(43:09):
not fragmented and combinedtogether.

SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
What's really interesting about that, that
10-step process that you justshared, and I do have two very
specific questions on that thatI'd like to road test with you
based on my experience workingwith a number of operators.
But when I'm onboarding a newpartner with our travel trends
advisory, we kind of go througha deep dive in the first couple
of weeks and look at all aspectsof their business, including
technology, marketing,distribution, and look at where

(43:33):
we can provide the biggestimpact.
And these are the two questionsI'm keen to ask you about
because there are two thingsthat I keep coming up against.
One of them is the payment side,um, but the back of house
specifically that you mentioned.
And then also on the travelerfacing side, with making sure
that you're optimizing everylead that comes in.
And so uh there's just so I gottwo questions on this one

(43:55):
because uh and and then I alsowant to get into AI and we want
to talk about where the industryis headed.
But So let's talk about the backof house for a moment.
Paying suppliers, managingpartners, handling logistics.
Something that people have heardme on our podcast, another
podcast, talking about multi-dayis the complexity of being able
to take currency in one market.

(44:15):
So Americans traveling toEurope, for example, taking
money in USD and then payingsuppliers in Euros.
And one of the things that touroperators need to be very
mindful of is that they need tobe uh they need to prevent
themselves from being exposed bycurrency changes.
So a lot of times we werehedging currency and then also
leveraging the fact that we hadtime between collecting money

(44:36):
and then also paying suppliersso you could make money on
foreign exchange and interestrates.
And this is actually where wegenerate significant profits and
only once you get to a certainpoint of scale.
But this highlights, and I'vehad a number of people come into
us asking more about how theycan move in that direction.
Most companies are not at thescale where that is is going to
be that meaningful, but they canget there over time.

(44:59):
So when you look at the back ofhouse side, paying suppliers,
managing partners, tell us alittle bit more about how much
functionality exists withinWeTravel for tour operators to
be able to utilize that thatpart of the platform.

SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Yeah.
This is a good time to start toget like really specific.
So based on our 2026 like trendsreport, 21% of operators said
finding and managing reliablelocal partners was one of their
biggest operational challenges.
And again, I want to get likenative as you know possible as
CPO to drive our roadmap.

(45:34):
And based on these results, whatwe've now built is the following
You need to find a supplier.
You can do that on WeTravelbecause we have what's called
partner hub.
And if you are a travel companynow sending somebody to
Galapagos Island for the firsttime, you can simply go to
partner hub instead of WeTravel,search uh for Galapagos or
filter by Galapagos, and you'llbe able to find well-vetted,

(45:57):
proven uh suppliers who've beenon WeTravel for a long time, the
DMCs.
They can be like one layer ofwhat people call suppliers.
And a supplier could also be ahotel, a transfer company, a
guide, right?
Uh you can find them on ourpartner hub as well.
And we now also have a pilotversion of a booking
marketplace.
So um hotels in almost everycountry, uh, millions of

(46:20):
properties, you are able to justsimply search, find, and uh be
uh make commissionable bookings.
So you can do all that findingof the vetted suppliers and book
them on WeTravel.
So it's like one step, right?
And then second step is how doyou actually pay them?
And this is where the threethings I mentioned as the

(46:41):
payment methods earlier forpayout come in really handy.
If you're booking a hotel,they're used to receiving a
credit card as a form ofpayment, and your traveler has
paid you into we travel.
Normally, what you would have todo is let's say the traveler
paid you in euros, your companyoperating US dollars, and the

(47:01):
supplier needs to get paid inMexican pesos.
It's a total nightmare.
Instead, instead of Wii travel,you can simply take that euro
payment and you can convertdirectly to Mexican pesos.
And uh we have we don't have tomake um significant margin on
this type of FX conversionbecause that's not where we want

(47:22):
to be strong at.
So you will be able to get umconversion rates that you cannot
find anywhere else, which ischeaper than any bank, which
cheaper than transfer wise orwise if you've used it before.
So now you have Mexican fund, uhPASO fund, and you can use that
to one, uh simply send a wiretransfer to that uh hotel.
Or two, since they're used toit, you can issue a credit card

(47:45):
just for that particulartransaction, dedicated to that
particular transaction, you canuse that to pay the supplier.
Uh, or three, if the supplier isopen to onboarding onto we
travel, you can send them aninstant free transfer, in which
case the supplier gets the moneyinstantly just like credit card,
but at the same time, they don'thave to pay the credit card

(48:06):
processing fee.
So they actually end up gettingmore money, which can end up
being a good economics for thesupplier and you as the operator
as well.
So uh just to kind of recap, youcan find the suppliers who are
vetted and proven withinWeTravel, and you can also pay
them in a one-stop shop mannerwithout having to take the fund
out across two different bankaccounts just to try to optimize

(48:26):
uh exchange rate conversion, butall of that is available for you
within WeTravel at rates thatyou cannot find anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 (48:32):
Yeah, that's a great use case because, and this is
where I wanted to throw a coupledifferent scenarios at you
because these are not edgecases, and these are core to
running your business.
But oftentimes these are thingsyou're coming up against
regularly that you don'tnecessarily have an automated
workflow for.
Um and here's here's anotherone, Josh, that I'm also keen to
ask you.
We had uh on my global team, uh,we had three different regional

(48:55):
teams, so in Sydney and Londonand uh uh LA.
And in LA, uh, part of my team,I had a fantastic team member,
Chris Francisco, that wasbasically responsible for CRM
and data.
One of the things that weapplied across the group was
trying to increase ourconversion rates by much more
effectively managing our leads.
And this is for anyone who'sworked on CRM fully understands

(49:17):
where I'm going with this, isthat you know you're trying to
figure out your lead nurturingwhen someone comes in and how
frequently you communicate withthem, especially if you've
onboarded something likeSalesforce or HubSwap before,
you'll get best practices thatare generic, but it's very
unique to the travel industryand specifically multi day tour
when you try and figure out whatis the frequency with which you
should communicate with them,you know, in the first 24 hours,

(49:37):
three days, five days to convertthat lead.
And we had a very well-definedsystem and process for doing
that.
What we would typically do isgive them some sort of incentive
to sign up for our newsletter orto be able to get a quote
request, and we would be tryingto optimize to get to about 20%
conversion rate for quoterequests.
Oftentimes it could be 10 to 20.
And we would look at whatpartners were doing, and

(49:58):
sometimes they were much moreaggressive in their approach and
uh and ultimately moresuccessful with the customer,
and we had continue to learnfrom that.
And one of the things alongthose lines, too, Josh, is that
we would used to go out and dowhat we called win back
campaigns.
So we'd have a list of leadsthat had gone cold or maybe had
booked with us in the past, orwe because we and and most
people, just to be clear, youwere managing either a prospect

(50:18):
list or you're managing a repeatguest list, and you have two
different journeys for them, asyou well know, but just sharing
this more broadly for everyone,because this is literally a use
case.
Every time we bring in a newpartner on the advisor side,
this is something that we gointo detail and it amazes me
every time I haven't seen aperfect configuration, and
obviously it's difficult to getto full optimization.

(50:38):
But my point is saying that mostorganizations literally someone
comes in, they send them anemail, maybe one or two, and if
they don't book, like that leadgoes cold.
And so this is a this to me isalways an immediate opportunity
for uh follow-ups to increasebooking.
So with we travel, not thinkingabout you guys just as a payment

(50:59):
solution, if you guys areactually helping on the
traveler-facing side, what doesthat look like?
And again, I think it's helpfulyou for you to be specific
because many people listening tothis, they want to hear that
problem, how that problem couldbe solved.

SPEAKER_00 (51:11):
Yeah, yeah.
And and just to set it up, Dan,um what are you seeing as like
the time to respond that youwould like classify as excellent
these days for that inquirycoming in?

SPEAKER_01 (51:22):
Yeah, so and and again, you may have different um
um approaches here, but one ofthe things, because it's not a
you know, when you're purchasingtickets to a concert and you're
trying to make sure you get thatpurchase within an hour, the the
whole idea is to try and makesure if you haven't got that
booking within 24 hours, you'veprobably lost that sale.
With the multi-day tour, peopleare looking for three months or

(51:43):
six months.
There's a lot more lead time.
And so typically we try and makesure we'd message them in 24
hours or three days and fivedays.
And so we would nurture thatlead over a more extended period
of time rather than hurryingthem up with a sense of urgency
to try and get them over theline, because then obviously a
lead can go cold on you.
So that was one thing that wehad learned was to kind of pace
it out and then get them into aregular sequence.

(52:05):
Um, but even things, Josh, ifthey've looked up a specific uh
destination, how do wecommunicate to them about Italy
versus just saying you knowsomething generic about the
business?
So again, that's where the howmuch knowledge you have on the
customer, what they weresearching for, what they've
expressed interest in, or whatthey've booked in the past.
So that's why I would love toknow what exists in the WeTravel

(52:25):
platform because I've neverexperienced WeTravel as a
marketer to be able tounderstand what is available in
the platform.

SPEAKER_00 (52:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
And um when when I like surveythe industry, um, I think it
makes sense that the nurture youhave about three to five day and
sometimes longer window.
But that first response is supercritical and the expectation has
risen.
We used to say 24 hours torespond, and now in a lot of
cases, it's two hours becausethe traveler is probably like

(52:55):
contacting multiple travelcompanies, and whoever comes
back quickly just kind of likeearns that initial attention.
And here's what that looks likeon WeTravel if you use those
four things I talked about thatare now stronger on WeTravel
than any other system you canfind outside.
Um, and it all starts with thewebsite, the presence.

(53:16):
So uh we build custom websitesthat are uh optimized for
traffic.
So you're getting that trafficinside the website will be a
contactless form.
Um, or uh it can also be aconversational chat as well.
And in the contactless form, youcan have any type of questions
that in case you want to usethat to qualify, right?

(53:37):
And then when the travelersubmits that form, it shows up
immediately in your CRM.
And you may remember back in thedays, there was this whole like
ding ding, you've got an email,right?
Like we actually have the dingding, you've got a new fresh
lead.
Um, so you know immediately.
And when you click on it and goinside of your WeTravel, um, and
and by the way, we send you theemail.

(53:58):
So like from your phone, you'llsee that you got a new lead, you
click it and you're inside a wetravel system where we show you
everything about that lead inone place.
If that lead is actually areturn traveler who's been with
you two years ago, we'll showyou what was the last time, what
last trip she's been on, she'sbeen on, what they booked, how
they like the itinerary, on andon and on, so that you can

(54:18):
respond more thoughtfully.
That's not all.
It's not just you who see thefull contact about that traveler
and the inquiry.
It's actually WeTravel's AI.
Because this AI isn't just theChatGPT outside, um, it has
information about all of yourtrips, which trips are available
and have spots open.
It knows about your cancellationpolicy, it knows about your

(54:40):
brand, it knows about thetraveler's information, what
they've done with you in thepast, and it would have already
drafted the first response bythe time you come in to take a
look at that lead.
So you go from now, beforeyou're on your phone, right?
Like you need to now come backto the office three hours later,
do a bunch of research just tobe able to get back to that
lead.
But instead, you got the emailon your phone, you log in to

(55:02):
eTravel, and we've alreadydrafted the email.
You just read, edit a couplethings, and click send.
And now the response is not justin two hours, probably in
minutes, giving you asignificant advantage to start
to warm up that lead and nurtureit.

SPEAKER_01 (55:19):
Well, I'm glad you brought up AI because that's
absolutely something I wanted tomake sure we got into.
I'm many of our listeners weredelighted as soon as you said
that, because but just to add abit of context to where I've
seen AI now coming into play,that much more importantly, is
when you have all data living inone place.
Because all of a sudden, to yourpoint there, all of a sudden you
the AI can help make connectionsthat otherwise would have been

(55:41):
very manual before about atraveler history, payments, uh,
knowing where they are in thebooking process and being able
to make recommendations for you.
And I just have returned backfrom a conference in Las Vegas
uh that was very focused onresorts and timeshares.
And one of the companies that uhthat I spoke to, they've
literally their whole businessmodel now is trying to make sure

(56:02):
they are uh meeting the need ofuh of having one holistic view
of the customer and using andand the robust uh options that
AI now uh offers to theirclients to be able to connect
those dots.
And it was like this is and thisto me is very much the future,
not only in terms of likeleveraging AI, but having
everything in one place.

(56:24):
So I'm very keen to ask youabout that because it sounds
like you guys have already madesome real progress there.
And I know obviously you're apart of our AI summit, which was
now you know several months agoand then coming up again.
So tell us a little bit abouthow what become what your
capabilities are enhanced bythen having AI being able to
leverage all that data in oneplace.
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (56:42):
So um the story that I just told ended at like
responding to the traveler withthat first response.
But behind the scenes, uh, we'renow actually having our AI draft
that itinerated proposal aswell.
So think about it.
Like now AI is uh helping youacross the entire marketing and
sales, where we are using AI tooptimize your website, right?

(57:04):
We can have an AI chat uh thathelps capture the lead.
And if you don't like AI chat,you can have a contact form as
well.
Lead comes in, email is drafted,and behind the scene, because AI
knows what are the products thatyou have, what kind of itinerary
you like to uh draft, whatwhat's your voice, and knows
preferences of this particulartraveler, if it's a return

(57:26):
traveler, would have drafted afull seven-day itinerary or
13-day itinerary behind thescenes.
And you can also review and justsend it.
So all of this just gets faster.
So think about AI as a thingthat helps you across the
marketing and sales lifecycle.
And once you got that booking,um, on now what moment, uh, how

(57:46):
you prepare the trip, forexample, uh, a lot of times that
you may have a larger group tripthat you need to create a
rooming list for, a flight listto give it to the transfer
driver.
And instead of you having to doall of that work manually in a
spreadsheet, our AI would havefully drafted it.
You can just go review, edit,and send it as well.
So those are examples of the AIcapabilities that we have and

(58:09):
are building to give that timeback to you as the operator so
that you can focus more of yourtime on actually talking to the
travelers and giving them thatgreat experience.

SPEAKER_01 (58:20):
Well, as you know, from our last summit to our next
one, I mean we you know the lasttwo years have been very focused
on uh generative AI, and now thetopic has certainly shifted to
agentic AI for all the rightreasons.
The idea that something doesn'tjust create content, it actually
acts on your behalf.
And obviously the AI is actingon your behalf here to be able
to make decisions and makerecommendations.
And so one uh what one morespecific question on AI, and

(58:43):
then I want to get some bestpractices from clients that you
are, you know, yourhigh-performing operators that
I'm sure be really interestingto our listeners.
But on AI, and we'll definitelycontinue this topic at our
conference later this year, butmost people do think of AI as
Chat GPT and it's just layeringthat in somewhere, and uh that
seems to be the use cases.
And part of the reason we didthe whole idea of demos at our

(59:04):
conference was to, and you didone, um, was to showcase how it
is actually being used.
So I would love to hear fromyour vantage point what you're
seeing travelers are expectingtoday based on the fact that you
know they they are expectingtravel operators to have some
level of AI integration, andchatbots is probably the first
and best example of how peopleare interacting with companies

(59:24):
in AI.
You were giving some greatexamples there around all the
back end that all of a sudden umcan be improved dramatically to
serve a customer better.
So it's it's it's uh somewhatinvisible to the customer,
they're not interacting with theAI, or they don't realize they
are, um, but they're justgetting a better customer
experience.
What would you say are probablysome of the best use cases of AI
right now in your platform?

SPEAKER_00 (59:46):
Uh okay.
So best use cases that I see sofar are all human in the loop
use cases, where instead ofputting AI to talk to the
traveler on its own all daylong, uh, the travelers who are
paying$8,000, uh, by the way,the luxury trip based on our
survey has gone up dramaticallyin like average ticket prices,

(01:00:08):
and that causes expectations togo up.
Then the traveler paying$8,000want to talk to human, want to
talk to the destination expert,like want to get to know you and
be able to trust you.
And to meet that expectation,you need more time on that phone
call with that traveler.
And that's where AI that sitsbehind as if you have a chief of

(01:00:29):
staff who does everything foryou, so that it's all prepared
in front of you, so that you cango have that great conversation,
has been the best use case.
And that's why our uh the emaildraft use case we talked about
the ding ding, you got a lead.
We could have had that AI sendthat email already.
We chose not to.
Even though we're allowing youto upload your writing sample so

(01:00:50):
that AI even writes like you, westill don't want it to just send
it because you may read thatemail and decide, I don't want
to send this email.
Instead, I'm gonna make a phonecall to the traveler, even
though they just dropped in alead.
I'm like, oh, you just left thelead uh, you know, filled out a
contact for us form threeminutes ago.
I saw it.
I think you love this trip, andyou can just give them a call,
right?
Like, think about whatdifference that makes in the

(01:01:12):
emotion of the person receivingthat call.
So that's how I think about theAI's best use cases.
And you can say the same thingabout itinerary.
We could have had the AIactually draft and send that
itinerary, but you probably wantto put that special human touch
on top.
And you might even want to goget on a Zoom call and like
present that itinerary live.
And that's why we think about AIas your chief of staff is the

(01:01:35):
best use case.
And I have so many opinionsabout uh whether how that's
different from just using ChatGPT that we can talk more about
at the uh summit that you'll berunning again.
Uh and we also have our uhindustry summit coming up uh in
late September to have more ofthose conversations as well.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:52):
Well it's interesting to use that example
because I always finish mypresentations on AI, which I end
up you know doing a number ofkeynotes on as when this
industry that's a background intechnology and is embracing AI,
obviously that's a lot what uhtravel companies want to hear
from us.
And I just did a three-partseries of the Virtuoso
conferences, and I always finishwith the the human touch and the
whole idea that you know uhtechnology plus the human

(01:02:13):
connection and really using thetechnology in the background.
So for me, I'm I guess I'm veryaligned with what you just
shared, because if you can thengive the operator and a good
example of this, there's acompany called Impulse Travel
based in Colombia.
They use WeTravel and they um uhI'm I sit on their board and
they were recently visiting usin Toronto, and on the very last
night uh that they were here,they presented an itinerary to

(01:02:35):
our family of a trip, uh comingtrip to take uh my wife and our
two kids to uh for spring breakin uh Colombia, and they
presented it on our TV screen umand took us through the
itinerary, and then that we werewatching YouTube videos of some
of the different places we couldgo.
We're all getting excitedbecause we're having a human to
human interaction, being able tounderstand an itinerary, a
destination, and looking at likeand so like uh the family's all

(01:02:59):
pumped this is our next big tripas a family.
So that that I just I wanted tohighlight that because that is
exact a great example of how doyou get how do you get a
customer, how do you keep acustomer?
Um, because you're then verycommitted to that trip and
you've you've now set it in yourmind that this is what you want
to do next.
And so uh empowering operatorsto be able to do that is really
important.
And so um, as we talk abouttechnology, not losing the human

(01:03:22):
touch is literally the end of mypresentation.
So along these lines, givenyou've got a lot of high
performing operators that workwith WeTravel, and you you know,
you've built this integratedstack, you're unlocking
opportunities around AI.
What are you seeing some of thebest operators?
And this is where I want tofinish with some of the best
practices that our listeners cantake away.
What are you seeing that some ofthose high performing operators

(01:03:43):
do differently?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:44):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So um we just had our industrywebinar for all the spring
releases, and we got greatfeedback and um information
about how people are using AIbecause we had about a thousand
plus uh live attendance andabout two thousand afterwards as
well.
That was just uh about a monthago.
And um, we've also run all thesesurveys and operator innovation

(01:04:08):
days with a small group, andthat's kind of given us a sense
of like four tiers of best, likemore naive practices to the best
practices, what I would call it.
Uh so at the bottom is we seehow people get studied with AI
as all right, I am finally usingChatGPT, I need to write an
email, and um I start typing inChatGPT and it'll edit for me.

(01:04:32):
So that's like step one, right?
And uh the thing with step oneis if you over-rely on just
ChatGPT by itself, where you'repasting things into ChatGPT or
Cloud or Gemini, you're gonnaend up with the cringe bunch of
M-dashes of old like famous AIwords, and people will know that
it sounds robotic in a way, um,too embellished per se.

(01:04:54):
So that's like step one.
Then you graduate from there tostep two, where you start to
train ChatGPT with your ownwriting samples.
And it starts to sound like you.
It sounds more human.
But the problem is still missingthe context because it only
knows what you paste into it.
So it's like having an intern,right?
Like a college high schoolintern where you send two emails

(01:05:15):
to college high school internand they have the context of
those emails and they can writeanother email.
Then step three is, and this iswhere most of I would say like
advanced operators are at.
They have ChatGPT, Cloud, andmaybe a couple other
applications that have AIlayered in, and you're trying to
get them more contact, you'retrying to get them to talk to

(01:05:35):
each other.
So you could have cloud that'sconnected to HubSpot, that's
connected to uh maybe MailChimp,right?
Like that's that's a decent stepto be at because it has like a
little more context about thelead.
Uh, but here's an interestingstory.
So Cloud or Chat GPT will likemix up things.
For example, in Europe, a dateis written month, sorry, like

(01:05:57):
day, month, year in that order.
Okay.
You're already smiling becauseyou know this, right?
And in the US, it's month, day,year, like right.
So if you see, if Claude seesone slash 12 slash 2026, is it
January or is it December?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:13):
It's not sure.
And in travel, this can be atotal disaster.
Whether the booking is inJanuary versus December, it's
like just a completelydifferent.
And transfer driver will beconfused and on and on and on.
And if you're at this stepthree, you are getting leverage,
but it also is a double-edgedsword that comes with a lot of
danger.
That's why I love seeing uh, youknow, clients like Matteo, who

(01:06:36):
are the best performers, gettingto the final step four.
And honestly, there are onlylike a handful out there who's
fully doing this is finding thatall in one system, um,
integrating everything else thatyou still need into it, and then
customizing that system toreally work for you.
And once you reach that staff,you've developed that chief of
staff for you that has fullcontext of your business and

(01:06:58):
it'll feel like you have extrastaff.
Um, so that's what I love to seemore of the operators get to
over the next six months.
And hopefully, instead of like80% being at tier one, like, you
know, step one and two, I wantto see like 50% at step four.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:12):
Well, and given you have those partners that are uh
more sophisticated and advancedutilizing your platform and kind
of pushing even what your teamis then doing, because they're
obviously you're continuing toevolve your platform based on
client needs.
One of the things I'm also keento understand, you know, uh
going back to when we weretalking just about payments and
the uh decreased drop-off rateor increased conversion rate,

(01:07:33):
that's one obviously veryimportant way to measure
success.
But I'm very curious to knowwhen it comes to you know being
fully integrated, if you haveany uh stats or you know, if
you've seen some interestingdata or patterns on how it's
impacting their overallperformance.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:48):
Uh we had one client whose name I probably shouldn't
mention because their stats arelike totally wild.
Over the last two years, theirbusiness has grown 4,000%.
Not 400%, 4,000.
I'm like, I'm wild.
I'm like, I I wish I was therein your business.
So this is like an extreme casewhere um the 10 steps I talked
about that WeTravel can help youwith, they use every single one

(01:08:11):
of the 10.
And they were probably the firstadapters for more than half of
them.
So that was one example.
Um, I think Matteo's example ismore achievable where he's able
to grow 50% year over year.
I think Sandra's example of intwo years being able to expand
to two additional continentsbecause she's getting that time
back and is able to have thatbird's eye view of the business

(01:08:32):
and every single traveler.
Uh so I hope like these numbersare aspirational.
Um, and um I think like thatcan, you know, hopefully get
people excited to thinkstrategically about your tech
stack rather than, oh man, Ihate paying for DocuSign.
It's coming up for renewal.
Let me just flip that withanother system.
No, no, if you're if you haveDocuSign that you want to flip,

(01:08:53):
you probably are also usingGoogle Forms for travel
information, and you probablyhave PayPal and three other
payment systems.
And why not take a step backwhen you have that week when
you're not actually out thererunning the trip?
Audit your tech stack and havesome conversations that can help
you dramatically give your timeback, not 5%, um, but 50% of

(01:09:16):
your time back.
Um, and that's the vision wehave.
That's what we've beendelivering for all of these
names that I mentioned on thiscall.
And I hope we can do that formany others on your audience.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:24):
Well, I'm sure many of them are now coming to
understand the importance andthe opportunity here.
But the reality is, you know, asyou know, many of them are small
or mid-sized operators.
And so um, when you talk aboutscaling, everyone wants to grow
their business.
And but there's you know veryfew large players in this space.
Most are small to medium sized.
And so that's one last questionI just wanted to ask you on this

(01:09:45):
topic is that for those in thatuh category, what would you say
is the biggest unlock they wouldget from moving to a system like
WeTravel?

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:54):
It's a combination of time savings, would be the
first.
Second, you would actually savecost, and the cost can be from
that um, you know, currencyconversion cost that we talked
about earlier, where you wouldget the best rates when we
travel.
It can be payment collectioncost, it can also be supplier
payout cost.
Um, and it can also be becauseyou're able to not have to pay

(01:10:15):
for DocuSign or HubSpot.
And third, but most importantly,you start to see your sales and
bookings grow.
That's not going to happenovernight because you have to
get used to the system.
So I to answer your question, Idon't think it'll be the first
thing you see.
But once your process starts toadapt to take advantage of, oh,
my website drives the leadstraight into an AI that drafted

(01:10:38):
the email and itinerary for me.
Once you get used to having thatchief of staff, then your sales
will start to take off.
So it took, you know, uh, Matteoand Sandra and others a year to
fully get used to it and fullytake advantage.
But once it kicks in, you'reseeing 50% year-over-year sales
growth uh in an aspirationalcases.
And um I I think um, andMatteo's uh business uh when he

(01:11:00):
started with us were just threepeople.
So it's very much that small tomedium size uh business
category, and you will be ableto uh have a shot at those kind
of aspirational outcomes.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:09):
Yeah, that's great.
That's no, that's and I'm suremany people are gonna have
questions.
I want to make sure that peoplecan connect to you and the team
uh after this.
But one last question on aprofessional note, and I've got
one on a personal note too,because I know you got young
kids and you're an avidtraveler.
But the um uh for operators whoare listening to this that feel
overwhelmed, and I think that'sthe the majority, uh, given

(01:11:30):
their current technical stackand how it's configured and all
the challenges they have.
So for someone who's in thatsituation, what would be the
first recommendation you wouldhave for them?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:40):
Um I'm not I'm not a good therapist, but I'm gonna
take a best shot at it.
Um so first recommendation wouldactually be like, don't feel
bad.
Uh it's actually quite normal.
And I actually get this questionquite often.
And like, you know, I'm I'm kindof like rolling off of like tons
of conversations and this umlike um you know mini gatherings

(01:12:02):
that we've been doing, and likethis question comes up so often,
which makes me feel this is whatthe majority are feeling, and
that's okay, that's normal, andit's a good thing.
That means there's somethingthere that's bothering you, and
there's something there that'sgonna motivate you to help grow
your business.
Um, and hopefully then you cantake that feeling of overwhelm

(01:12:25):
and transition to a feeling ofhope.
Because the reason why you'refeeling this way is because the
tech environment for you ischanging.
There's so much more tooling andlike power available for you
with these AIs.
And even we travel like two,three, four, five years ago,
couldn't have helped you withall of the 10 steps.
But now I'm here confident insaying that come talk to us,

(01:12:47):
we'll help you out with all 10steps, whether that means
marketing and sales that canhelp you get more sales,
managing your booking andpayments, or managing the
downstream stuff.
And uh as we talked aboutearlier, like as you start to
transition to hope, like maybelike take a step back and be
strategic.
Don't just like do a littlething because that's not gonna
actually dramatically give youmore time back.
And if it's a tool number 11,it's actually gonna take more

(01:13:10):
time away.
And also, um, maybe you ask forthe advice, but like advice on
like what not to do.
Um, you wanna be a bit carefulwith, hey, vibe coding is a bit
of a fad now.
Like you can vibe code onepersonal productivity tool, but
you can't really vibe code like10 steps that's gonna be like
business critical because youdon't want that lead to one day

(01:13:30):
leak.
You don't want that uh paymentto be dropped, or you you wanna
be careful with um vibe code orsmaller software shops who's
trying to overextend themselvestoo much.
Because if you have 10 engineerstrying to do two, three, four of
these things, then uh you relyquite a bit on them.
And um, what if something goeswrong?
They're not gonna be around 3a.m.

(01:13:53):
at night or on a Saturday when atraveler's on the phone with
you, angry, yelling at you, andthen you try to get in touch
with your tech provider andthey're not available because
they don't have the coverage.
So um when you're taking thatstrategic step back, think about
uh technology vendors asstrategic partners.
And that's why at WeTravel,we've invested in the human side

(01:14:15):
of things where we have uh, youknow, 400 people company, 100
people in RD who, and weactually have 24-7 on-call
across our engineers.
So if anything happens for ourclients over the weekend, we
will jump online to take care ofyou.
And my actually Slack andWhatsApp goes off if something
bad happens.
And it's never gone off in thelast year, which I'm very happy

(01:14:35):
with.
Um and you want to have thatsecurity.
So just to recap, I think it'snormal, don't feel bad, uh,
transition to hope and take thatstrategic step back and
hopefully uh take a bet on yourown business and uh your ability
to uh manage this change.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:50):
I love that.
I mean that's what I said.
You said sound like a therapistwhen you say um near first thing
is normalize the situation,which is you know, you're
absolutely you're absolutelyright because people come in and
they're like, is it me?
And it's like, no, it's theindustry and it's the challenges
of the world that we're in.
It's not you.
It's and you're you know, you'renot alone is the first thing you
need to know for sure.
Um but I also love what you saidthere about transitioning to

(01:15:12):
hope.
I'm gonna start using that.
That's a new line that you'vejust uh shared with me that I
think is gonna be um a recurringrecurring theme.
It might even be the title ofthis episode, uh, transitioning
to hope.
Um let's just make sure all ofour listeners, and I'm gonna ask
you a personal question, but itseems um more fitting now given
what you just shared and thefact that you might get a Slack

(01:15:33):
message.
So for those people who havebeen really inspired by our
conversation and want to connectwith the WeTravel team or even
reach out to yourself, Josh,what would be the best ways for
them to do that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:43):
Um the easiest way would be just go to LinkedIn,
look for Josh Chang.
It's Chang with the A.
Um, and you probably need toalso type in WeTravel.
So Josh Chang WeTravel willprobably get you, you know, um
the answer.
Like you'll be able to find methat way.
And if that doesn't work, maybeJosh Chang Amsterdam might work
as well, um, since there are afew other Josh Chang's around

(01:16:04):
the world.
Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:06):
And I'll I'll make sure that uh in the outro in a
moment that people all also knowsome of the upcoming events and
other initiatives that you uhreference, so people want to
connect with you and the team.
But um, on a personal level,Josh, you've got two young kids,
and uh, you know, you live in abeautiful part of the world, and
clearly you can travel a lotfrom there.
But well, what is next for youwith your uh personal travels or
what what's the next multi-daytour family experience that

(01:16:27):
you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:28):
Oh, we're actually going down to um Spain, uh
starting in Barcelona, butdriving up and down the coast.
Um, and uh we're gonna do um alittle bit of like grandparents,
so my wife's uh um you know, dadand uh family will come in.
And uh we're we're there forone, uh it's a nice getaway, and
two, a very much uh free childcare.

(01:16:50):
So my wife and uh can have alittle bit of time away.
And that's like my truly honestanswer to end this talk.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:56):
Oh, that's awesome.
Oh, that's great.
Well, I hope you guys have anamazing trip.
I obviously uh thoroughly enjoyworking with uh the We Travel
team.
I think you guys uh have a veryunique position in this industry
and a very important one.
And I say that because I'm a bigadvocate for multi-day tour
travel, as all of our listenersknow.
I think there's a big blue oceanhere for us to continue to grow
this category.

(01:17:17):
So the more that we seemulti-day tour companies having
success, generating morebooking, spending more on
marketing, the more people whoare going to take this style of
travel that is much moresustainable, much more
culturally fulfilling andmeaningful.
And as you know, one of the bigfocuses for us over the course
of this year has been talkingabout transformative travel.
And I truly believe that's whatmulti-day tour offers.
And so I was so delighted to seewhen we travel had raised our

(01:17:40):
last round to see that it wassolving uh multi-day and AI.
And I was like, oh my God, Inever thought in my lifetime I
would see that level ofinvestment in this category.
And so I'm thrilled for theWeTravel team.
I'm thrilled for our industry,and obviously it's a great
pleasure to have this time withyou today, Josh.
So thanks for joining us andthanks for sharing as many
valuable insights as you have.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:01):
Dan, I loved it.
Thank you so much for making thetime.
Um, excited to continue to havethese chats.
And I hope, you know, for thelisteners out there, it's a
great time to be runningmulti-day business.
You guys deliver so much value.
Uh, I've been on some of yourtrips, and I hope you continue
to do the amazing work that youdo with more hope.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:21):
And that's a wrap for today's spotlight episode
with We Travel and the ChiefProduct Officer, Josh Chang.
Thanks again, Josh, for joiningus for this conversation.
I think one of the biggesttakeaways from today's
conversation is that most travelbusinesses don't have a
technology problem.
They really have a complexityproblem.
And that's the reality of overthe years, operators have just

(01:18:43):
been adding tools to solveindividual challenges, but those
tools don't always work welltogether.
And the result is a lot moremanual work, duplicate
processes, less visibility, andultimately less time spent doing
the things that actually drivegrowth.
What Josh and the team atWeTravel are building is really
exciting and helping operatorsget back to focusing on

(01:19:03):
travelers instead of managingthese many disconnected systems.
If you want to learn more aboutWeTravel, you should check out
WeTravel.com.
We actually have a great productrelease from their latest
webinar that we'll drop a linkinto our show notes so you can
view that on YouTube.
And if you're listening beforeSeptember 29th and 30th, make
sure that you do register forWeTravel's fourth annual travel

(01:19:26):
innovation summit.
As I mentioned at the beginning,it's an amazing opportunity to
hear from industry leaders andlearn what's shaping the future
of travel.
I've had the privilege to speakat the conference the last two
years, and I highly encourageeveryone to check it out.
And as always, if you enjoyedthis episode, make sure you're
subscribed on the streamingplatform of your choice.
And we do post clips andhighlights on all our social

(01:19:47):
channels, which you can find onYouTube, Instagram, and LinkedIn
at Travel Trends Podcast.
And if you are interested inmore spotlight episodes, check
out traveltrendspodcast.comslashspotlights.
Thanks again for joining us forthis conversation.
And until next time, safetravels.

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