July 2, 2026 • 48 mins
Tour operators aren't just competing on the experiences they sell, they're competing on the experience they deliver behind the scenes. From the moment a traveler books to the moment they leave a review, every interaction matters.
In this Company Spotlight, Dan sits down with Benjamin Sann, Founder & CEO of TourOptima, and Josh Halpern, Chief Commercial Officer, to explore how technology is helping tour operators simplify operations and deliver a better guest experience. They discuss the everyday challenges operators face, from flight delays and last-minute schedule changes to managing guest communications across emails, text messages, OTAs, and multiple internal systems.
Ben and Josh explain how TourOptima brings these moving parts together into a single platform, helping office teams, guides, drivers, and coordinators stay connected while giving travelers timely, personalized communication. They also share how operators are using data and automation to reduce no-shows, improve customer satisfaction, and make day-to-day operations more efficient.
The conversation also explores the growing role of AI in tour operations from smarter customer support and multilingual communication to sentiment analysis and operational insights. Along the way, Ben and Josh explain why the best technology doesn't replace people, it gives them the tools to deliver exceptional service when it matters most.
Learn more at touroptima.com.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:05):
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Travel
Trends Podcast and a specialspotlight episode.
This is your host, DanChristian, and today's
conversation is going to beright at the intersection of
technology, operations, customerexperience, and the future of
tours and activities.
And that's specifically, as yousaw from the title, the future
of tours and activities, AIautomation, and the guest
(00:25):
experience with Tour Optima.
Now, for anyone who spent asignificant amount of time in
this industry, you know thatdelivering an incredible guest
experience is only one part ofthe equation.
Behind every successful tour,attraction, or experience
operator is an incrediblycomplex operational machine that
includes bookings, waivers,guest communications, guides,
(00:47):
transportation, payments,reviews, upsells, customer
support, and increasinglyartificial intelligence.
So for many years, theseoperators have been forced to
stitch together multiplesystems, spreadsheets, messaging
platforms, and a lot of manualprocesses just to keep
everything running.
The challenge has never reallybeen about creating great
(01:08):
experiences.
Many companies do that.
It's been connecting all themoving pieces behind the scenes.
And that's what I'm most excitedabout today's conversation.
And joining me in a moment aretwo industry leaders who are
helping redefine how modern touroperators manage guest
experiences and operationalefficiency.
First person I'm going to bringin in a minute is Benjamin Sand,
(01:29):
the founder and CEO of TourOptima.
I've known Ben for many yearsand have the opportunity to
watch his entrepreneurialjourney from the earliest stages
with this particular business.
And one thing that always stoodout to me is his ability to
identify operational pain pointsand build practical solutions
that operators actually need.
And we're also going to bring inJosh Halpern, the chief
(01:50):
commercial officer at TourOptima, who's recently joined
and has a great deal ofexperience in e-commerce and
technology.
And so I'm pleased to have himon the podcast as well.
But just for context, TourOptima is focused on helping
Tour operators modernize theentire guest journey by
connecting travelers, guides,drivers, and office teams
through a single communicationsand operations platform.
(02:12):
That system brings togetheremail, SMS, WhatsApp, automated
workflows, digital waivers,payment collection, all into one
fully branded mobile applicationin one connected ecosystem.
Tor Optima now supportsoperators across seven
continents and helps facilitatecommunications for millions of
travelers annually.
And what's particularlyinteresting is that Tor Optima
(02:35):
isn't simply solving today'soperational challenges.
They're really building forwhere travel is headed next.
And that includes artificialintelligence, automation,
personalization, real-timecommunications, and an
integrated traveler experience,which is going to become a
standard expectation for manyoperators in the future and
force them to really modernizearound this, especially when you
(02:57):
look at companies like Amazon,Uber, Airbnb, or even Spotify is
probably the most closestexample for what Tor Optima has
built.
In today's conversation, we'regoing to get into the background
of Tor Optima and what Benoriginally set out to solve, how
the platform has evolved fromsimply a communication solution
into a comprehensive operationalecosystem.
(03:19):
We'll talk about some of thebiggest challenges that Tor
operators still face today, howAI and automation are creating
real business value, whyconnectivity between booking
systems, payments, guestcommunications guides, and
distribution channels isbecoming mission critical, and
what separates the fastestgrowing operators from the rest
of the market.
And I really believe that Benand Josh, as well as Tor Optima
(03:41):
specifically, is uniquelypositioned to lead the way in
the future of travel andexperiences.
Now, most importantly, we'regoing to discuss where the tour
and activities industry isheaded over the next few years
and what operators should bedoing to prepare for tomorrow.
So whether you're a touroperator, a destination
management company, a traction,activity provider, technology
(04:01):
leader, or someone simplypassionate about the future of
travel, I think you're going toget tremendous benefit from this
conversation.
First of all, I want to welcomeBen Sand back to the Travel
Trends Podcast.
Ben is a great friend to TravelTrends.
You've been a key part of our AIsummit the last couple of years.
Obviously, you and I are greatfriends and have known each
other for many years, both at mytime at the Travel Corporation
and since you have been scalingthis incredibly successful
(04:23):
business.
So I'm thrilled to have youback.
And obviously, I want ourlisteners to know the backstory.
But first of all, welcome backto Travel Trends.
Tell us where you are today.
To be back.
We're here in sunny New York.
Fantastic.
And New York is obviously amajor global hub.
I had uh Jake Peters, as youknow, from Fora on the podcast
recently, and he washighlighting to me just how
significant it is being based inNew York as a global travel hub
because the business you can do,the meetings you have,
(04:46):
everyone's coming through NewYork.
It's such an amazing city.
And so you have built a travelbusiness in New York City, but
you also had a very successfulfirst startup.
I want everyone to know a littlebit of the backstory of Tor
Optima, the challenge you setout to solve, which is
incredibly complex.
And I know that from my timeoverseeing day tours and
multi-day tour brands.
But tell everyone a little bitabout your background, Ben, and
(05:07):
how and why you started TorOptima.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
So prior to Tor Optima, founded, sold Best
Parking, which was uh comingfrom New York, parking was an
issue, thousands upon thousandsof facilities.
We built the first reservationand comparison uh system for for
purchasing parking, uh, scaledthat to multiple cities, and
that was essentially if we thinkabout ResTechs today, uh ResTech
(05:32):
for parking, in other words.
Uh we've come a long way.
I was interested in travel, ofcourse, and looking to solve
tangential field within travel,which was a lot of operators did
a phenomenal job of sending outconfirmations, uh making sure
that bookings were taken,payments were taken.
(05:53):
But it was that last mile ofdelivery that created all sorts
of operational headaches,flights being delayed, people
landing at the airport atdifferent gates, uh
understanding that ticketsneeded to be reissued at the
Coliseum for day tour operators,bad weather alerts at an
observatory, all of thesesituations where last-minute
(06:15):
communications needed to reachguests, and there was really no
tools that handled that well,other than uh WhatsApp from
personal numbers, uh it callsbetween the office staff,
guides, coordinators, frontoffice, and guests.
It was it was a very messyprocess.
And we came in and we we sawthere was a need for that and
started to work with a few verylarge companies in the space to
(06:37):
solve this pain point.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
Well, it was really fascinating for me to see the
early stages because havingworked across 40 brands at the
Travel Corporation, many of theworld's largest multidata
operators, as well as thelargest regional day tour
operators like Evan Evans in theUK or AAT Kings in Australia,
one thing that stood out to meover that time was how
disconnected their systems andtechnology platforms were, but
(07:00):
how critical the operationalexperience actually is.
And nobody was offering anythinglike what you had built.
So immediately when I saw thesolution that we reviewed
together at FocusRight a coupleof years ago, my initial
reaction was like, oh my God,this is so perfectly fit for
purpose for multi-day as well asday tour, because you'd already
solved what is the most complexpart of day tour, which is every
(07:21):
day is day one on a day tour,and you have to pick people up
at their hotels.
And so for multi-day, it was anatural extension.
And I know you've gone on tohave success there as well as
attractions and observatories,and we'll bring Josh into the
conversation in a moment becauseI know he's driving a lot of
that new business and bringingclients on board.
But just before we finish on thebackstory, I would love for you
to kind of bring us up to speed,Ben, from you know, from us
(07:44):
having that conversation morethan two years ago at Focus
Right, and the journey you'vebeen on over the last two years
to not only succeed with so manyclients, but also build out this
technology in a way that isincredibly useful and solves all
sorts of problems and is verymuch focused on customers just
having the best possibleexperience on their trip so
they'll come back and leave verypositive reviews.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Yeah, I I think that if a customer and this is what
Uber did for the for theindustry, right?
And and I like to think of ourthe current state of the
industry, pre tour optima, fiveyears ago as taxi dispatch.
And I think it's a great analogybecause every everyone's
effectively a taxi dispatcher.
People are standing at the wrongspot, the meeting point needs to
(08:27):
be moved because just like withUber, there's construction, all
of a sudden I need to pick youup on a different block.
And how do customers, given thefact that they've all been
exposed to Uber, you've beenexposed to Uber.
We all use it, we pull it outfirst thing, we expect that
level of service from our touroperators.
Same with Amazon packagedelivery, right?
We have an issue, we actuallyknow where our package is at any
(08:48):
given time until it until ithits our doorstep.
We know when it's gonna come,where it's gonna be.
If we if we contact Amazon, theyknow exactly who we are, they
can deal with our issue in twoseconds.
That's what customerexpectations have become.
And just because you're and Ithink it's even more important
when you're traveling becausecustomers are are nervous.
This is their first time inItaly at the Coliseum, first
time in France.
(09:08):
They're getting off a plane.
Uh they're they're nervous, uh,their connection is spotty, and
they need to be sure that theyknow exactly where to go and and
when they need to be there.
SPEAKER_02 (09:17):
Yeah, and that's where like the tourist and
activity operators, you know,historically, and even many
today, you know, they're stillstitching together spreadsheets
and waivers and using differentmessaging apps, like you
mentioned, WhatsApp, and thenthey have their booking tools.
And so it's incredibly complexto operate, but then also how
you engage with the actualtraveler to make sure that they
have, as you described withUber, an experience where they
(09:39):
actually know where their guidesare and they can even know where
the other guests are, and thattakes away that anxiety.
So for me, when I saw what youbuilt, obviously for me for me,
it stood out to that I'd neverseen anything like it.
And I know that you've had greatsuccess in the datour space and
now moved into uh to multi-day.
But tell us a little bit moreabout how it's evolved since
then and then specifically whyyou decided to bring Josh and uh
(10:01):
and create that role of a chiefcommercial officer.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
Absolutely.
And in fact, we started withmulti-day today, back to
multi-day, back and forthbetween and realize there's so
many parallels really betweenthe two.
I even hate to bridge a linethere because we work with
operators that do both day andmulti-day.
And what I think the the line isis just uh lodging and and
stringing together a series ofdifferent activities into a
(10:25):
cohesive unified experience.
But really, it's it's just amatter of of duration.
I don't know why the industrycreates this arbitrary divide
and and companies have tospecialize in one or the other.
Uh, but regardless, we westarted realizing that, hey,
this is this is being used fromby very large companies to
handle communication at scale.
And this could also be used forobservatories, right?
(10:48):
When there's bad weather alerts,uh, when there are long lines to
check in, when people are in aforeign city and and they need
to understand where do I go, howdo I cancel, how do I manage my
booking.
This is on the day tour andattraction side of things.
On the multi-day side of things,really taking users from the
pre-experience.
We were very focused when we metDan with the on-trip experience,
(11:09):
but pre-experience, I have toupload my passport.
Well, it's it's super easy to dothat through text or WhatsApp.
Post-experience, surveys,tipping, all the entire
communication timeline from thepoint of booking all the way
through post-strip and even intopost-trip CRM land.
And and that's some of the newstuff that that we've been
working on.
Given given the scope and givenhow much really interest we were
(11:33):
receiving, I was at the wholegamut of conferences from WTM to
Fitor, uh, despite not beingfluent in Spanish, which Josh
is.
And I realized that, hey, we weneed someone to just focus on
the commercial side of thebusiness, on expansion, and on
partnerships.
There's so many really excitingpartners that we've partnered
with in the industry, from OTAsto Restex, that Josh was was
(11:57):
truly needed.
And Josh, I'll let you talkabout your background, but you
came from a background ofdiplomacy and and partnerships.
True.
This is accurate.
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Um, very circuitous uh route here.
But actually, as you said, man,I mean, I find in in a lot of
ways uh we we are kind ofshepherding a new era of
diplomacy through travel.
So I I often say this, and Iknow Dan, you hear me talk about
this at at our differentconferences, but I don't think
people really understand, andand I'm sincere in this.
I I as a former diplomat, I dofeel like there's more impact
(12:28):
we're having in the tourindustry to bridge gaps on a
day-to-day basis, real peopleunderstanding each other, than
and frankly, that's not a hardit's not a hard barrier to break
when we see where our diplomacyis on a global scale now.
But um even at our best oftimes, I think uh I think travel
industry can do more fordiplomacy than diplomats do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:47):
Well, I saw your diplomacy at work the very first
time we got a chance to go outtogether.
And this is when uh Ben and I,again, have known each other for
many years and have been goodfriends, and when Josh uh was
being considered for the role, Igave him a two big thumbs up
because we were uh together atthe Adventure Travel and Trade
Association conference inDenver.
We had uh an epic uh adventureof racing uh scooters on the
(13:09):
street and even went out for anight of karaoke with our
friends over at Intrepid, who umuh are also now clients
ultimately, not specificallybecause of the karaoke, but it
was uh it showed me that youcould add both sides to you know
your background, you'reknowledgeable, you love travel,
and also you're just great withcustomer engagement.
And obviously, I you know we goton for the moment that we met.
(13:29):
And um, but I would I would loveto hear from your vantage point
what attracted you to TourOptima.
I know what I saw when I uhfirst got the demo from Ben.
I'm sure you had a similarreaction, but what made you
decide to jump on board?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Yeah, I mean, I I think just to take a step back,
obviously what attracted me tothe attractive the travel space
in general was definitely theability to a couple things.
One is obviously the message ofwhat travel is and what it can
stand for.
And as I think we all want towake up in the morning and feel
like we're doing somethingmeaningful to change the world
for the better, I I genuinelyfeel like that's that's what the
travel industry can be and isdoing and can do more of.
(14:04):
And so I wanted to go towardsthat.
And then when I saw the trends,you know, 10 years ago when I
was really in the e-commercespace and I launched uh the
e-commerce innovation lab forthe Department of Commerce, it
was really out of the idea thatthere are tons of companies out
there that just don't understandthe technology and have to get
online.
They have to get online tobecome competitive globally.
And the SMB space was definitelylagging, and there was a lot of
kind of need to educate onhighly technical uh skills and
(14:27):
tools for e-commerceoptimization.
And then you you fast forward 10years, when I start to see where
the trend is in the travelspace, you go in, and I'm sure
there's a lot of operators outthere that feel this way.
You go into these travel spaces,these conferences, and you're
like a dealer deer in aheadlight because you you you
see 50 different things, they'reall seem similar, they've got
all the right buzzwords, andthey it's hard to differentiate
and see where these actuallyapplies to you.
(14:49):
And I felt like that's a greattrend to be on, where you're now
starting to do what I like todo, which is educate, not just
sell.
And so when we start to educatecompanies on how to do things
better and what tools to use, itwas just kind of serendipitous
that I met Ben really throughBruce, also at Arrival and the
whole crew.
And when you start, as you said,when you see the demo and you
see where the technology is, yousay, wow, this is something that
(15:10):
operators need.
So this isn't about uh it's notabout vaporware, it's not about
telling them something that'ssome weird niche of their
operations.
It's fundamental.
And when you see operators say,wow, as a B2B technical SaaS
business development person, itsells itself.
So I don't, I I felt like Icould get behind this and and
really help.
And as Ben was saying with thepartnerships, um, to me, I'm
(15:31):
very into better together, howdo we work together as partners,
public-private partnerships?
So the associations that you andI met from the association uh
the Adventure Travel TradeAssociation, and then uh we
looked at uh outside, and thenyou look at arrival, and all
these partners are reallyfundamental to to rising tide.
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Yeah, one of the things I just want to call out
too, Josh, is when you coming onboard and you know, knowing Ben
as well as I have for years,it's an interesting combination
between the two of you guys.
And but one of the things Iwanted to highlight to all of
our listeners is how theplatform has evolved from what
and what the core facets of theplatform actually are.
Because I think that's actuallyimportant for our listeners to
(16:09):
understand.
I'm sure many people aremultitasking while we're having
this conversation looking attour optima.com.
We're gonna make sure that wehave some specific details for
you in a moment about how youcan get a personalized demo so
you can really understand how itwould work for your tour
business or your attraction.
But going back to the core, Ben,of what you built with this
platform, I would love for youjust to walk us through what
some of the core facets are ofthe Tour Optima platform that
(16:33):
have been kind of the gamechangers for many of your
clients.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
First and foremost, communications platforms.
So uniting SMS, WhatsApp, OTAs,emails into a single view,
whereby the office staff, thebat I'm talking about the back
office staff, the front officestaff, anyone on the ground, the
guides, the coordinators, andthe guests are united in single
conversation threads.
(16:58):
And for multi-day operators,that is ensuring that before day
one, the group has time toconnect with each other in a
secure way where they're notgiven each other's contact
information, but they cancommunicate and opt in.
Once that tour guide or the tripleader joins that experience,
we're able to involve them inthe conversation and taking that
(17:19):
through to the conclusion of theexperience and making sure that
it's a single cohesive unifiedjourney that lives within the
tour operator's CRM andvisibility.
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
One of the things I wanted to specifically ask you
around this is because I stillremember when you were initially
pitching to the operation sideof the business, and this is
where there's a real difficultywhen you're working the
operation side and you'vecreated systems that work, that
function.
There may not be optimal andthey may lose revenue or uh cost
time, but you're right, you'vebuilt something that you're, you
(17:52):
know, you're continually tryingto just manage.
It's very difficult to wrap yourhead around something else that
could completely change the wayyou operate, but ultimately
would make you more efficientand I've and make it for a much
a much better experience foryour clients.
And so I know one of the thingsthat Ben evolved was actually
getting the messaging right forCEOs and executives so they
could really understand thevalue of introducing a platform
like this.
And so on that topic, because Ithink that's the real pain point
(18:15):
that I, you know, I saw veryearly on, is that if people use
Tor Optima, like a white labelplatform, to be able to optimize
the guest experience on a daytour or multi-day tour.
And as you said, Ben, like youknow, either, if they're just
adjoining a tour, how do youmake sure they have an amazing
experience, write positivereviews, come back?
And ultimately, that's themeasure of success that is going
to increase revenue.
So tell us if you wouldn't mindfrom you know what you saw
(18:37):
initially when you looked atoperators that were using the
platform.
Whether was it about being moreefficient with time or was it
increasing revenue or acombination of both?
What were the things that theyweren't even realizing they were
missing that were the biggestbenefits of them switching over
to this platform in the firstplace?
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
Being proactive.
Many times as an operator, youare responding to issues as they
come up, and then you'refirefighting those issues.
And our goal is to map out thoseissues in advance, figure out
how do we automate processes toprevent those issues from
happening in the first place.
(19:13):
And when they do happen,automate them either through uh
rules or now AI.
And that process will take thedirector of operations or the
director of customer success andexperience and have their call
center dramatically improved,response times improved,
happiness of the employeesimproved, uh, happiness of the
(19:34):
guests improve, and it allrelates together.
We're we're ensuring that everyguest has a great experience so
that when they when we send themthat review request, we know
they've had a great experiencebecause they've they've made the
tour on time, they've met upwith their tour guide, they've
uh had a great mid-tripcheck-in, and now we're finally
(19:55):
sending them the post-tripreview, and we know they've had
a good experience on thatexperience on that tour.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
And that's where getting the core and the
fundamentals obviously was so uhimportant to your uh initial
customers and their success thatare continued to be on the
platform.
And I know you guys have beencontinuing to build out the
platform as Tor Optima has uhhas expanded, you know, quite
significantly in the last uhcouple of years.
And you know, seeing you all inaction uh just recently at the
arrival conference in Valencia,as you mentioned, Josh,
(20:20):
obviously Bruce is a greatfriend to us all.
And the arrival conference issuch a uh a unique and important
conference, especially for daytours and attractions.
And I saw your booth absolutelyslammed for those three days of
the event.
You guys hosted the welcomeparty, and it was really cool to
see you guys in action.
And Hannah's well on your team,but the whole team there in your
booth can continuously buzzingwith people looking at the
(20:42):
features and the capabilities.
And I spoke to a few operatorsat the event who were we just
switched over to Tour Optima, orwe actually just had a demo.
We're about to start using TourOptima.
And so on that note, Josh, Iwanted to bring you back into
this because there's obviously alot of newer features you've
introduced, a lot ofcapabilities that have been
requested.
Um, so tell us a little bitabout what drove some of those
additions, you know, markettrends, but also specifically uh
(21:05):
what your clients have beenrequesting.
What are the things that thatstand out to you being, you
know, I guess now just over ayear in the role and seeing uh
all the momentum and success?
What are the things that standout to you about the features
and capabilities of touroperations?
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Yeah, and I think speaking to the on the backs of
what we were just talking about,let me try that again.
So talking a little bit aboutthe three pillars of I think
where we add value, right?
We delight the guests, we'reincreasing revenue, the lifetime
value.
So if you're a multi-day, it'sreally about the lifetime value
engagement with the guest toincrease the what we call in the
e-commerce world the averageorder value, the average
lifetime value of a guest, andthen it's the operational
(21:39):
efficiency.
And so kind of staying true tothat, and I think Ben and I go
back and forth a lot because weget a lot of requests from
different operators.
As you know, you have fiveoperators, you get 17 different
requests, and we want to makesure that we accommodate
everybody, but we want to staytrue to where we're adding the
most value, as you said, right?
So we want to make sure is therequest going to add revenue?
Is it going to delight guests?
Is it going to improve?
(22:00):
Operational efficiency.
And so one of the things thathave come up, I mean, the people
that when we speak to operators,the people that love us out of
the gate, often the operationspeople are thrilled.
Uh, the revenue folks, they theywant they see the the dollar
signs go in, and the marketingteam.
And so we've been askedfeature-wise to look at how we
can help them articulate to thewider internal audience through
dashboard analytics what's goingon and what's being effective
(22:22):
and what isn't.
Where can they push the buttonsto wring out more value from the
existing guests, especially in aworld where we're seeing some
tourism trends, as you say,travel trends around headwinds?
How do we get more value out ofthe ones that already are
committed and traveling?
And that's that's in thedashboard, in analytics, it's in
uh obviously AI features.
We just incorporatedmultilingual AI, you know, so we
(22:44):
we have the ability for AI torespond in any language, and
then now the ability for anoperator to look on that
response and before it's sent,translate it to their language
so they can understand it andsend it over.
So getting uh just broader toolswithin the dashboard.
Ben, I'm not sure if I've missedanything there.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Overall, we work now with so many different
operators, and uh of thoseoperators, thousands of customer
service reps who are writing inwith phenomenal feature
requests.
And each of these featurerequests seems small
individually, but together theycreate a powerhouse of a system
for an operations team, forrevenue management teams, or our
(23:22):
operators as a whole.
So that's what really providesvalue to the platform.
And I think as we think aboutthe proliferation of AI tools,
AI is phenomenal if you knowexactly what you want to create.
But it will not invent thenuances that an operations team
in Cancun that deals with tripsout to Chichinitsa has to deal
with every day.
Right now, there's a massivestrike over at Chichinitsa and
(23:44):
it's it's closed.
The vendors are up in armsbecause they're being delegated
to uh stands outside of theythink they're not gonna be able
to sell as much.
Operators have to reroute gueststhat have booked months in
advance that are taking aonce-in-a-lifetime vacation to
one of three different sites.
So imagine you're a guest, youget to Mexico, you're told, hey,
you can't go to Chichinitsatoday.
You we're gonna send you off toa different archaeological site.
(24:08):
How do you frame that in a waywhere that guest says, hey, that
sounds great.
I'm not gonna cancel my trip.
I'm gonna be excited about this.
The photos look great, sign meup.
Getting that nuance down andmaking sure that you can retain
99% of guests and they're happyat the end of that experience is
something that just requires adeep understanding of the market
(24:30):
and requires a uh a lot ofnuances.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
You've both brought us some really interesting
points.
Obviously, Josh bringing up AIand Ben, even as you were
speaking there, just with thehuman touch and given how things
change uh within a specificdestination, as you just
outlined in Chichen Itsa, Iactually just did that trip
recently and I was in Cancunwith my family and we did a
Chichen day tour, and it wasfantastic.
But there wasn't a lot oftechnology in that particular
(24:54):
experience.
And so um, and so it's one ofthe things I do want to get into
is the human touch andtechnology.
But before we do, one of thethings you had mentioned at the
beginning of our conversation,Ben, when you look at the
industry and how it's evolving,one thing is that operators are
being forced to modernize muchfaster in the face of not only
Uber, but Amazon, Airbnb, theywant instant digital
(25:15):
experiences.
So that's the expectation, whichreally changes and puts a lot of
pressure on operators to be ableto introduce technology and
something that we've talkedabout extensively on this
podcast over the last few yearsis the fact that most people get
into the travel industry becausethey want to delight customers
and they want to have amazingtravel experiences, not because
they are experts in technologyand they have to find a way to
(25:37):
start to leverage technology.
But most travel companies arejust that.
They're travel companies, nottechnology companies.
And this is what's unique aboutcompanies like Tor Optima is you
are a technology company thatserves the travel industry.
So on that note, I do want toget into AI because this is one
of those things that ifoperators are being forced to go
down this path, they may bethinking, oh, I can spend a
(25:57):
weekend vibe coding a platform,or I can, you know, try and
create something and I canstitch these things together and
potentially creating more of anissue.
And so let's talk about how youguys have integrated AI because
I still remember, Ben, when youjoined our AI summit, one of the
things you talked about wassentiment analysis of being able
to understand if people arehaving uh some difficulties on
(26:18):
their trip, the most importantthing you can do is solve it
right there in the moment, notallow that to occur, and they go
home and then they write anegative review.
And that's one of the benefitsof the Tour Optima platform that
really stood out to me is thatyou can do sentiment analysis by
virtue of AI.
So let's let's highlight to allof our listeners where you guys
have integrated AI into theplatform.
So I'd love to hear that fromyou, Ben.
(26:38):
And then Josh, you can jump backin to kind of highlight where
you guests are asking you orwhere your clients are asking
you to continue to develop.
But yeah, Ben, tell us a littlebit of how you've got to build
AI into the platform.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Yeah, so previously the status quo was everyone's on
WhatsApp, communicating offplatform.
This this is last-minuteemergencies as they develop.
And by centralizing that, youcan still use WhatsApp as a
delivery method, but by usingTor Optima, you assemble a very
large knowledge base of what'swhat's going on, what are all
the problems that you face as abusiness, what are taking up the
(27:12):
most time, what's having themost customer dissatisfaction.
And you as an operator cancreate and craft a knowledge
base and processes and protocolsthat solve this proactively
instead of reactively.
And if you do have a customerwho's who's writing in, how are
you going to deal with that?
And the nuances are insanelycomplicated.
Every single OTA has differentrefund policies and cancellation
(27:35):
policies.
If you need to reschedulesomeone at Chechenitsa because
of the strike that's going onand the massive uh situation
there, it's going to the way inwhich you reschedule them is
going to depend on the policiesof the agent or the OTA.
We're in a very special businesswhere our many of our customers
are customers through an agentor through an agency.
(27:56):
And it really separates thetravel industry from many, many
other industries.
When I buy sneakers, I go to thestore and I buy a pair of
sneakers.
When I buy a travel experience,I might go through an agency, an
OTA, or a local travel agent topurchase that experience.
And making sure that everyone'skept in the loop and follows the
right guidelines is an immensechallenge.
So that's one of the areas thatwe're really looping in AI in
(28:18):
being able to analyze policies,handle that proactively.
And it's a big training effortfrom our end into giving
operators the tools tounderstand Reg, understand a
knowledge base, understand howdo I tweak my knowledge base to
deliver the types of suggestedand automated responses that I'm
looking to deliver and set myguidelines such that AI will
(28:40):
only respond to customers ordeal with certain issues if it's
above a certain confidencethreshold.
So we've we've in the last sixmonths, as everyone knows with
Opus and Claude, just taken offexponentially when it comes to
the capabilities.
And and this is something thatneeds to be truly harnessed and
funneled into the into the rightdirection as opposed to, hey, I
(29:03):
am looking to build a callcenter or a contact center.
Please vibe code it for mebecause it's not going to
understand the nuances of thetravel industry and that OTA
agency dynamic that I justmentioned.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah.
And Josh, on that, I mean,obviously, you're seeing a
number of operators utilizingTor Optima and also embracing AI
as you guys have into yourstack.
Um I'd love to hear if theremight be some really interesting
use cases or hacks that you'reseeing of how uh creative use
cases for uh Tor operators usingusing Tor Optima and leveraging
AI.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
Sure.
Um I was just imagining, though,Ben's example of buying a shoe
and what it would be like if ifit were actually like Tor.
So you'd basically have aprivate shopper that would shop
on your behalf, buy the shoe,and then if you wanted to change
the size, you couldn'tcommunicate directly with the
store, nor could the storecommunicate with you.
You'd have to go through anactual personal shopper who'd
have to then go back and forth.
It would slow up the economysignificantly.
(29:54):
And that's right.
That's that's I guess what we'redealing with.
And so I, you know, I think Ijust want to highlight some of
the bigger things that one ofthe things that operators take
advantage of our platform aroundis the manifest view, the
ability to message all theguests, all the different
channels that Ben talked about,where it's unique messages based
on who the guest is and whatchannel perhaps they purchased
from, but then doing it at scaleon a on a manifest level where
(30:15):
you can send everybody on aspecific tour a message, know
that they get it, but it doesit's going to be different for
everybody depending on whatchannel they came into.
Right.
I don't know if everyone reallyhit home on that.
That ability, operators whounderstand that and then are
leveraging that to then alsocreate the right upsells based
on the channel or no upsells ifthey're coming in through, let's
say, OTA channels, right?
So there's there's certain waysthat operators, if they do it
(30:35):
right, they're doing it atscale.
And frankly, you cannot do it ifyou don't do it through a
platform like ours because youcan't do that at scale.
You'd go crazy, try todifferentiate which upsells are
gonna go to which guest based onwhich channel, right?
Um so I think that's a a majorvalue prop and also a major
challenge that they have.
Similar to disruptions, right?
Operators want to tell everybodythey need, there's no option to
not tell people that the tour iscanceled, that the entrance is
(30:58):
moved, that the weather hasimpacted things, but they need
to know that everyone's gonnaget that.
And that has to happen at scalewithout everybody calling or
messaging every individualguest.
And we do that.
Um so those are so there's someadded um features.
Uh well.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Yeah, one of the things great.
One of the things I uh was justgonna add, I've certainly seen
you know the value that'screated operationally by using
the Tor Optima platform and howyou guys are continuing to
integrate AI, and obviouslyyou'll be a part of our summit
again uh later this year.
And so we're gonna continue tohave those conversations.
But one of the things thatalways comes up when we're
talking about AI uh is that whatis the role for the human touch?
(31:35):
And I am a big advocate, as Ithink you both know, uh, that
really in the face of AI, peopleare going to desire human
connection that much more.
However, where we see AI beingutilized is very much in
automating some of theseworkflows.
And actually, and and when Ilook at the tour optimal
platform, the thing that standsout to me is you very much have
this concept of a tour leader ora guide that you are improving
(31:57):
the experience for the guests tobetter facilitate the guide
doing what they do best, whichis guiding the tours and making
sure that they're creating agreat experience.
So I would love to hear yourtake on this.
Like when you think of uh anoperator work workflow, like
when you think of an operator,what what is the value of
automation and what do you thinkstill requires a human touch?
SPEAKER_01 (32:17):
I'm gonna give an example that kind of weaves
right between the two.
Personalization.
Operators that personalize theirmessaging from day one all the
way through to who's asking fora review, putting a name to
those tours and to the guests,have a lot higher conversion, a
lot better guest satisfaction,and actually reduce their
no-shows because people feelthey've engaged with the actual
(32:37):
operator, the actual guidebefore they've arrived.
So wonderful personalization.
Now the question is could youuse AI to do that?
Yes.
We use AI so that the tourguide, who's not necessarily
starting to work until the dayof the tour, is actually sending
messages that are personalizedto the guests.
The guests feel they're gettinga personal message from the
guide, but the guide is actuallynot having to send that message
(32:58):
themselves.
Um, similarly, the pictures, thephotos, right?
We personalize photos and mapthem in the in the system for a
guide can actually have theirown photo.
When the guest is assigned tothat guide on that tour, they're
going to get a personalizedphoto and the name of that guide
welcoming them.
That does not have to be actualhuman sending those out.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
Yeah, so I would say that with all of the emphasis on
AI and AI suites, there is a lotlost to rule-based orders and
flows.
And when it comes to travel andOTAs at scale and bookings and
booking notes and dietarypreferences and allergies, there
(33:38):
is a lot of rule-based ordersthat will always exist to
prevent any misunderstandingwith an AI.
So, for example, if a pickuppoint is specified in the
system, there is no need toinvolve AI in terms of aside
from the guest asking, hey, whendo I need to leave my hotel to
get to the pickup point?
(33:59):
Yes, that is something that weneed to involve AI for.
But there is this tendency, Ithink, at the moment to think
that everything should be vibecoded and AI can just handle the
whole workflow.
When we're talking about peoplethat are taking a
once-in-a-lifetime vacation,there are certain things that
you want to be very, veryspecific and never get wrong
because 0.01% is still too muchto get wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (34:23):
Yeah, and we've certainly seen that.
Like if you look at the uh MikeColetta and the work that
FocusRight has done with thelatest AI utilization from a
customer point of view, it'soverwhelmingly they're using it
for planning, but not forbooking.
And the big reason they're notusing it for booking is trust.
And you're absolutely right,Ben, that one of the things that
we continually talk about on thepodcast is the fact that when it
comes to people's holidays, it'sactually more important than the
money they've spent.
It's the time that they have.
(34:43):
And so the reality is they'realso booking on different
platforms.
So you brought up OTAs, and Iwanted to ask you about that as
well, because at every arrivalconference, it's always about
distribution and connectivityand the challenges that many
operators have because they havedifferent booking systems and
CRMs and different payment uh uhprocesses, and then these
(35:04):
messaging tools, and they workwith all these different
distribution partners.
So you've obviously seen thatevolve over the last few years,
and it's more complex than evertoday.
So very keen to get your take onthat as it relates to operators
listening to this to try andfigure out you know, utilizing a
platform like Tor Optima.
How important is connectivity intheir consideration of
implementing a solution likethis?
SPEAKER_00 (35:26):
We our platform supports operators that do not
have a booking system in place.
So a lot of multi-day operatorshave not found a booking
solution and a booking systemthat works for them.
Uh, some of the largest ATORoperators are still on their own
custom systems.
So we do not require that.
What we have found is having abooking system leads to a lot of
(35:47):
efficiencies because the bookingsystem serves as a hub and
almost almost the operatingsystem on which apps can then be
built.
So we consider ourselves as acommunication system and portal,
an app, uh a service that sitson top of the core booking data.
That core booking data better be100% up to date, current, have
(36:09):
all the pickups in the system,have all the resource
assignments.
That needs to be in place forcommunications to work.
Because if if that is not inplace and you don't know when
your tours are leaving, youhaven't uh dynamically priced
your tours based onavailability, you don't have a
channel manager to manage all ofyour OTA relationships.
Uh, if if you don't have that,you're you're gonna be
(36:30):
firefighting forever.
And we're only adopting aservice like ours is is
moderately helpful, but you'restill gonna be firefighting.
So you need to have a centralsystem as an operator.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
And taking a full arc back to the original
discussion around, to me, thetrends around e-commerce and
where this is now, you're seeingyou know, in the e-commerce
world, the backbone of abusiness was really the website
and the interface, and Shopifybecame that backbone in many
cases.
And then everything's a bolt-on.
And the best, and then you canchoose your best and breed.
What we're seeing is that it'sit's really arrived to the point
(37:00):
where the ResTech is, as Ben'ssaying, the backbone of an
operational kind ofinfrastructure.
And then what is the best andbreed that you can bolt onto
that and what works mostseamlessly with that?
SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
Well, and this is where obviously the most modern,
if you will, like tour andactivity providers are utilizing
technology that will serve theircustomers because they know
their value of repeat business.
And um, customer retention,lifetime customer value is is as
important as it's ever been.
And I think that the operationalexperience is ultimately where
you know it can fall down.
(37:30):
That's that's ultimately theexperience people are looking
for.
So I'm keen to finish off with acouple of tips from you guys
when it comes to revenue andgrowth that every tour operator
is looking for today, andobviously trying to make a
decision on who they partnerwith, what platforms they use.
And one of the decisions alwaysaround using a platform is the
cost of a platform.
(37:50):
And it's so interesting when Benand I were having these
discussions with some of thepartners that are now part of
Tour Optima, you know, when youlook at, and I've had this
experience because I know whatit's like when I'm on the
operator side looking attechnology and the idea of it
being a cost, but the reality isit actually is going to increase
revenue and it's gonna, and fora number of reasons.
So I keen to ask you on thisquestion, Josh.
(38:10):
When it comes to revenue andgrowth, you're clearly hearing
existing clients that areextending your relationship with
you, other clients that arecoming on board.
A couple of tips from you when Iwhen you look at operators and
where they're leaking revenuetoday, and you know what you
would say separate some of thesehigh growth operators from
everybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Okay, sure.
I'll say uh three things, andI'm sure Ben will have five
more, but um one is obviouslypersonalized, personalize,
personalize.
You can do that at scale, makingsure people feel that they're
engaged with the guide when it'svet when it's that's appropriate
or somebody specifically uh andthat the and that the operator
knows who they are, what they'vebooked.
Uh the second thing I'd say ismaking sure that you are uh
(38:49):
selling the right thing to theright guest.
The idea of blasting everybodysaying, hey, we just got this
really cool coach tour, uheveryone, just everyone, 15% off
coach tour.
It's that may or may not be thebest sell for everybody, right?
And and if you can do it atscale, make sure you're selling
the right thing.
And if you don't have thosethings in your portfolio, either
partner with someone who does.
We're seeing a lot of uptick inrevenue from partnerships
(39:09):
between operators and betweenproducts, or get the product, or
think creatively about theproduct.
If you can infuse a lunch cellin there, infuse a lunch cell.
And then the the the lossrevenue and that leakages, I
think, speaks to um no shows,cancellations, the inability to
re rebook people at a different,more appropriate time based on
maybe their weather or theirrequirements, maybe doing it at
(39:31):
scale and making sure thatpeople get what they want before
they either decide not to showup or they give a bad review.
Ben, where did I miss?
I'll do perfectly.
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Yeah, Josh.
Um you're hired.
Josh, you're hired.
Nice.
I you know, I learned from thebest.
Um yeah.
Well, let's talk about on thatnote because obviously you're a
key part of the future of TorOptima.
So as much as we joke, I mean,obviously, yes, it's um it's
been great to see the dynamicbetween the two of you and then
certainly seeing you atconferences, and you know, we're
gonna be together again at manyof the big industry conferences
(40:03):
over the course of 26 and 27.
I wanted to finish off to talkabout where the industry is
headed.
I know that you and the teamhave been very focused on
future-proofing Tor Optima.
You've got some of the biggestclients in both the day tour and
the multi-day tour spaceutilizing the platform.
They're gonna continue to makesure that it's feature complete
and and does everything thatclients continue to expect.
(40:24):
So tell us a little bit aboutwhere the industry is headed and
and specifically why peopleshould be considering Tor
Optima.
So maybe we'll we'll start withBen and then we'll go to you,
Josh, and then we'll make sureeveryone knows how to connect
with you guys and also arrangeto book a demo.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Yeah, I think the level of customization and
personalization based on theoperator and the tour, and
whether it's pickups, whetherthe tour is meeting points,
whether it's day or multi-day,whether there is a foundation
that the operator might want tosupport based on the where in
the world the guest might be,based on geo-aware
notifications, all of theseattributes and and what the
(40:57):
expression I like to use is thedevil is in the details.
And it's only until you get intothe details that you find out
that that's really an apt aptexpression.
And we've gone down so manydifferent, I would say,
communication rabbit holes,rabbit holes being a good word
in this case, of solving painpoints that a specific client
(41:20):
that does swamp tours in NewOrleans might have regarding
their pickups at 6 p.m.
to take people to the to theboat tours.
How that differs from theColiseum, how that differs from
Chechenitza, how that differsfrom a customer landing uh in in
Morocco, right?
To to set out on a week-longexperience and then having
travel disrupted due to a due toa war in the Middle East.
(41:41):
All of these things are whatseparates, I would say, us in
terms of how we think about ourbusiness and the level of care
that we provide.
And I really as a company, I'vemade it our mission culturally
to treat every operator'sbusiness as if it's our own.
So when we see an issue like thewar in the Middle East break out
or an issue at Chechenitza,which we discussed, how do we
(42:02):
proactively go in and suggestways of helping these operators
solve that problem?
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Yeah, I mean, I I think, first of all, I think
that the there's a lot ofconsolidation of tools.
I think people are workingtogether more and more.
There's uh there'sinfrastructures we know around
standardization aroundtechnology.
Uh so I think that's a greatthing.
I think that we're seeing uhsome out some we're seeing some
technologies really come out ofthe gate and we really see how I
want to answer this.
(42:32):
I think we're seeing a lot oftrends around consolidation and
collaboration between technologytools.
We're seeing standardization, aswe know with Octo and others.
I think that we're seeing umoperators really look to what is
gonna be effective versus whatsounds like it's a great idea,
and then you try it.
There's not as much of aninterest in trying something and
then having it fail six monthslater.
They recognize like tried andtrue is important.
(42:53):
Um, I think for us, in terms ofTor Optima, our ideal client is
a client that's well educated,that has enough volume that they
can see those incremental valuesthat that are being brought to
the table and both inoperational efficiency as well
as a revenue.
Um, it doesn't necessarily haveto be the largest companies in
the world, but it does have tobe a company that's willing to
invest in growth in the properinfrastructure, that core
(43:14):
foundation, because you know, wewe find that the companies that
see what we do and get it arewilling to put the investment
both financially but also in thetime.
When you see under the hood, yousee how much work we do.
We're not a traditional SaaSsolution where we pay us a month
and we walk away.
Every month we'll get thatreoccurring revenue.
We work with you very deeply onhow to how to create those right
messaging flows that, as Ben wassaying, it's just it's it's
(43:36):
about understanding the nuancesof the only industry that we
work in.
Um so I think that people often,and I don't think we do a good
enough job, and I have to workon this with a team, of
articulating the intimate workwe do with each operator.
Uh and unfortunately, peoplefind that out afterwards and
they love it.
They don't necessarily want totell all the other operators
that that's the key key sauce.
Uh but we have that's wherewe're gonna be focused a lot
(43:58):
more in the in the coming yearsis finding the right.
Clients that get it and thatwant to grow versus those who
you know just think of it as anincremental, minor, minor, not a
fundamental value add.
SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
Yeah, well, you both know I'm big believers in both
of you, the team, and whatyou've built with Tor Optima.
And I know from uh speaking tomany of your clients how happy
they are.
And I want to make sure that allof our listeners that are
looking to increase revenue andfuture-proof their business and
make sure that they're meetingthe clients uh where their needs
are today from a technologypoint of view for you know day
tour, multi-day, but also theattraction, something we can get
(44:30):
into in more detail and uhfuture conversation.
And uh, but in terms ofconnecting with you, obviously
I've mentioned the website.
What would be the best way foreveryone to be able to reach
out?
Obviously, Josh, that's yourrole now, so I'm not gonna put
that on you, Ben.
So, Josh, what are the best waysto connect with you, the team,
and to be able to arrange ademo?
SPEAKER_01 (44:46):
The best is Dan's personal number.
I'll pull it up right now.
Anytime and I'll I'll I'll readI'll redirect you.
I think that we'll we'll put ademo link in that's unique to
Travel Trends and we'll send itover.
You can share that with theaudience.
I think that's the best way todo it.
I just want to preface it bysaying Ben, myself, the entire
team very deeply cares aboutwhat we do.
(45:06):
Uh we are perfectionists, sosometimes to a fault.
We really want to work withcompanies that get it.
Um, so do not hesitate to reachout.
Uh, and and as you as you know,we we're we love each other, we
love the team, we really enjoywhat we do.
So otherwise that that wouldn'tget us up in the morning.
So uh let's stay in touch.
SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
That definitely shows.
Thank you, Ben.
Thank you, Josh.
Great to have you back on TravelTrends.
I wish you and the team everysuccess in 2026.
Uh, look forward to seeing youat many of the conferences and
keeping in touch.
Thanks for your support oftravel trends as well and have
certainly a very bright futureahead.
So thanks again to you guys forjoining us today.
Thank you, Dan, for all you do,man.
SPEAKER_01 (45:39):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
Thank you.
And that's a wrap for our latestspotlight episode of Travel
Trends.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Josh and Ben.
Thanks again to you both forjoining me and having this
conversation around the futureof tours and activities.
Obviously, I'm very bullish onthe future of Tour Optima and
what you and the team havebuilt.
And I think one of the thingsthat stood out to me most about
(46:00):
this conversation is that it'snot simply about technology,
it's really about solvingreal-world challenges that tour
operators, attractions, andactivity providers face every
day.
And one of the things that wediscussed is these disconnected
systems and manual processes,which still exist far too
commonly across the industry,and where we need to get to with
automation, connectivity,personalization, and really
(46:23):
making for a seamless guestexperience.
And as you heard, over thecourse of our conversation, we
explored the growing impact ofartificial intelligence,
changing customer expectations,and why operators need to think
beyond simply taking bookingsand really focusing on the
entire guest journey.
Ben, having known him for somany years, it's so exciting to
see your Tor Optima journeycontinue to unfold.
(46:45):
And Josh, it's exciting to seeyour expertise and perspective
being brought into the businessand the success that you and the
team are having as you'rerolling out new clients across
the industry and attending allthe big trade shows, which it's
always great to see you guys at.
And I think one of the biggesttakeaways for me from today's
conversation is that the futurereally belongs to operators who
embrace connected technology,automating repetitive tasks,
(47:08):
leveraging AI intelligently, andthat will focus relentlessly on
delivering exceptional customerexperiences.
For our listeners, if you're atour operator, attraction,
activity provider, or tourismbusiness looking to streamline
your operations, improve guestcommunications, increase
revenue, and really future-proofyour organization, I strongly
encourage you to learn moreabout what the Tor Optima team
(47:31):
is building.
And you can request a demo withthe following link:
Toroptima.com slash traveltrends.
So you'll be able to connectdirectly with the team and be
given a very personalized demofor listening to this episode
and reaching out.
And that link again isToroptima.com slash travel
trends.
You can see firsthand howToroptima is helping operators
(47:53):
simplify operations, enhance theguest experience, and really
create a more connectedbusiness.
And on that note, thank youagain, Ben and Josh, for sharing
so many valuable insights withus and your vision for the
future of our industry.
And thanks to everyone whojoined us around the world for
this episode of Travel Trends.
Until next time, safe travels.
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Travel
Trends Podcast and a specialspotlight episode.
This is your host, DanChristian, and today's
conversation is going to beright at the intersection of
technology, operations, customerexperience, and the future of
tours and activities.
And that's specifically, as yousaw from the title, the future
of tours and activities, AIautomation, and the guest
(00:25):
experience with Tour Optima.
Now, for anyone who spent asignificant amount of time in
this industry, you know thatdelivering an incredible guest
experience is only one part ofthe equation.
Behind every successful tour,attraction, or experience
operator is an incrediblycomplex operational machine that
includes bookings, waivers,guest communications, guides,
(00:47):
transportation, payments,reviews, upsells, customer
support, and increasinglyartificial intelligence.
So for many years, theseoperators have been forced to
stitch together multiplesystems, spreadsheets, messaging
platforms, and a lot of manualprocesses just to keep
everything running.
The challenge has never reallybeen about creating great
(01:08):
experiences.
Many companies do that.
It's been connecting all themoving pieces behind the scenes.
And that's what I'm most excitedabout today's conversation.
And joining me in a moment aretwo industry leaders who are
helping redefine how modern touroperators manage guest
experiences and operationalefficiency.
First person I'm going to bringin in a minute is Benjamin Sand,
(01:29):
the founder and CEO of TourOptima.
I've known Ben for many yearsand have the opportunity to
watch his entrepreneurialjourney from the earliest stages
with this particular business.
And one thing that always stoodout to me is his ability to
identify operational pain pointsand build practical solutions
that operators actually need.
And we're also going to bring inJosh Halpern, the chief
(01:50):
commercial officer at TourOptima, who's recently joined
and has a great deal ofexperience in e-commerce and
technology.
And so I'm pleased to have himon the podcast as well.
But just for context, TourOptima is focused on helping
Tour operators modernize theentire guest journey by
connecting travelers, guides,drivers, and office teams
through a single communicationsand operations platform.
(02:12):
That system brings togetheremail, SMS, WhatsApp, automated
workflows, digital waivers,payment collection, all into one
fully branded mobile applicationin one connected ecosystem.
Tor Optima now supportsoperators across seven
continents and helps facilitatecommunications for millions of
travelers annually.
And what's particularlyinteresting is that Tor Optima
(02:35):
isn't simply solving today'soperational challenges.
They're really building forwhere travel is headed next.
And that includes artificialintelligence, automation,
personalization, real-timecommunications, and an
integrated traveler experience,which is going to become a
standard expectation for manyoperators in the future and
force them to really modernizearound this, especially when you
(02:57):
look at companies like Amazon,Uber, Airbnb, or even Spotify is
probably the most closestexample for what Tor Optima has
built.
In today's conversation, we'regoing to get into the background
of Tor Optima and what Benoriginally set out to solve, how
the platform has evolved fromsimply a communication solution
into a comprehensive operationalecosystem.
(03:19):
We'll talk about some of thebiggest challenges that Tor
operators still face today, howAI and automation are creating
real business value, whyconnectivity between booking
systems, payments, guestcommunications guides, and
distribution channels isbecoming mission critical, and
what separates the fastestgrowing operators from the rest
of the market.
And I really believe that Benand Josh, as well as Tor Optima
(03:41):
specifically, is uniquelypositioned to lead the way in
the future of travel andexperiences.
Now, most importantly, we'regoing to discuss where the tour
and activities industry isheaded over the next few years
and what operators should bedoing to prepare for tomorrow.
So whether you're a touroperator, a destination
management company, a traction,activity provider, technology
(04:01):
leader, or someone simplypassionate about the future of
travel, I think you're going toget tremendous benefit from this
conversation.
First of all, I want to welcomeBen Sand back to the Travel
Trends Podcast.
Ben is a great friend to TravelTrends.
You've been a key part of our AIsummit the last couple of years.
Obviously, you and I are greatfriends and have known each
other for many years, both at mytime at the Travel Corporation
and since you have been scalingthis incredibly successful
(04:23):
business.
So I'm thrilled to have youback.
And obviously, I want ourlisteners to know the backstory.
But first of all, welcome backto Travel Trends.
Tell us where you are today.
To be back.
We're here in sunny New York.
Fantastic.
And New York is obviously amajor global hub.
I had uh Jake Peters, as youknow, from Fora on the podcast
recently, and he washighlighting to me just how
significant it is being based inNew York as a global travel hub
because the business you can do,the meetings you have,
(04:46):
everyone's coming through NewYork.
It's such an amazing city.
And so you have built a travelbusiness in New York City, but
you also had a very successfulfirst startup.
I want everyone to know a littlebit of the backstory of Tor
Optima, the challenge you setout to solve, which is
incredibly complex.
And I know that from my timeoverseeing day tours and
multi-day tour brands.
But tell everyone a little bitabout your background, Ben, and
(05:07):
how and why you started TorOptima.
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
So prior to Tor Optima, founded, sold Best
Parking, which was uh comingfrom New York, parking was an
issue, thousands upon thousandsof facilities.
We built the first reservationand comparison uh system for for
purchasing parking, uh, scaledthat to multiple cities, and
that was essentially if we thinkabout ResTechs today, uh ResTech
(05:32):
for parking, in other words.
Uh we've come a long way.
I was interested in travel, ofcourse, and looking to solve
tangential field within travel,which was a lot of operators did
a phenomenal job of sending outconfirmations, uh making sure
that bookings were taken,payments were taken.
(05:53):
But it was that last mile ofdelivery that created all sorts
of operational headaches,flights being delayed, people
landing at the airport atdifferent gates, uh
understanding that ticketsneeded to be reissued at the
Coliseum for day tour operators,bad weather alerts at an
observatory, all of thesesituations where last-minute
(06:15):
communications needed to reachguests, and there was really no
tools that handled that well,other than uh WhatsApp from
personal numbers, uh it callsbetween the office staff,
guides, coordinators, frontoffice, and guests.
It was it was a very messyprocess.
And we came in and we we sawthere was a need for that and
started to work with a few verylarge companies in the space to
(06:37):
solve this pain point.
SPEAKER_02 (06:38):
Well, it was really fascinating for me to see the
early stages because havingworked across 40 brands at the
Travel Corporation, many of theworld's largest multidata
operators, as well as thelargest regional day tour
operators like Evan Evans in theUK or AAT Kings in Australia,
one thing that stood out to meover that time was how
disconnected their systems andtechnology platforms were, but
(07:00):
how critical the operationalexperience actually is.
And nobody was offering anythinglike what you had built.
So immediately when I saw thesolution that we reviewed
together at FocusRight a coupleof years ago, my initial
reaction was like, oh my God,this is so perfectly fit for
purpose for multi-day as well asday tour, because you'd already
solved what is the most complexpart of day tour, which is every
(07:21):
day is day one on a day tour,and you have to pick people up
at their hotels.
And so for multi-day, it was anatural extension.
And I know you've gone on tohave success there as well as
attractions and observatories,and we'll bring Josh into the
conversation in a moment becauseI know he's driving a lot of
that new business and bringingclients on board.
But just before we finish on thebackstory, I would love for you
to kind of bring us up to speed,Ben, from you know, from us
(07:44):
having that conversation morethan two years ago at Focus
Right, and the journey you'vebeen on over the last two years
to not only succeed with so manyclients, but also build out this
technology in a way that isincredibly useful and solves all
sorts of problems and is verymuch focused on customers just
having the best possibleexperience on their trip so
they'll come back and leave verypositive reviews.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Yeah, I I think that if a customer and this is what
Uber did for the for theindustry, right?
And and I like to think of ourthe current state of the
industry, pre tour optima, fiveyears ago as taxi dispatch.
And I think it's a great analogybecause every everyone's
effectively a taxi dispatcher.
People are standing at the wrongspot, the meeting point needs to
(08:27):
be moved because just like withUber, there's construction, all
of a sudden I need to pick youup on a different block.
And how do customers, given thefact that they've all been
exposed to Uber, you've beenexposed to Uber.
We all use it, we pull it outfirst thing, we expect that
level of service from our touroperators.
Same with Amazon packagedelivery, right?
We have an issue, we actuallyknow where our package is at any
(08:48):
given time until it until ithits our doorstep.
We know when it's gonna come,where it's gonna be.
If we if we contact Amazon, theyknow exactly who we are, they
can deal with our issue in twoseconds.
That's what customerexpectations have become.
And just because you're and Ithink it's even more important
when you're traveling becausecustomers are are nervous.
This is their first time inItaly at the Coliseum, first
time in France.
(09:08):
They're getting off a plane.
Uh they're they're nervous, uh,their connection is spotty, and
they need to be sure that theyknow exactly where to go and and
when they need to be there.
SPEAKER_02 (09:17):
Yeah, and that's where like the tourist and
activity operators, you know,historically, and even many
today, you know, they're stillstitching together spreadsheets
and waivers and using differentmessaging apps, like you
mentioned, WhatsApp, and thenthey have their booking tools.
And so it's incredibly complexto operate, but then also how
you engage with the actualtraveler to make sure that they
have, as you described withUber, an experience where they
(09:39):
actually know where their guidesare and they can even know where
the other guests are, and thattakes away that anxiety.
So for me, when I saw what youbuilt, obviously for me for me,
it stood out to that I'd neverseen anything like it.
And I know that you've had greatsuccess in the datour space and
now moved into uh to multi-day.
But tell us a little bit moreabout how it's evolved since
then and then specifically whyyou decided to bring Josh and uh
(10:01):
and create that role of a chiefcommercial officer.
SPEAKER_00 (10:04):
Absolutely.
And in fact, we started withmulti-day today, back to
multi-day, back and forthbetween and realize there's so
many parallels really betweenthe two.
I even hate to bridge a linethere because we work with
operators that do both day andmulti-day.
And what I think the the line isis just uh lodging and and
stringing together a series ofdifferent activities into a
(10:25):
cohesive unified experience.
But really, it's it's just amatter of of duration.
I don't know why the industrycreates this arbitrary divide
and and companies have tospecialize in one or the other.
Uh, but regardless, we westarted realizing that, hey,
this is this is being used fromby very large companies to
handle communication at scale.
And this could also be used forobservatories, right?
(10:48):
When there's bad weather alerts,uh, when there are long lines to
check in, when people are in aforeign city and and they need
to understand where do I go, howdo I cancel, how do I manage my
booking.
This is on the day tour andattraction side of things.
On the multi-day side of things,really taking users from the
pre-experience.
We were very focused when we metDan with the on-trip experience,
(11:09):
but pre-experience, I have toupload my passport.
Well, it's it's super easy to dothat through text or WhatsApp.
Post-experience, surveys,tipping, all the entire
communication timeline from thepoint of booking all the way
through post-strip and even intopost-trip CRM land.
And and that's some of the newstuff that that we've been
working on.
Given given the scope and givenhow much really interest we were
(11:33):
receiving, I was at the wholegamut of conferences from WTM to
Fitor, uh, despite not beingfluent in Spanish, which Josh
is.
And I realized that, hey, we weneed someone to just focus on
the commercial side of thebusiness, on expansion, and on
partnerships.
There's so many really excitingpartners that we've partnered
with in the industry, from OTAsto Restex, that Josh was was
(11:57):
truly needed.
And Josh, I'll let you talkabout your background, but you
came from a background ofdiplomacy and and partnerships.
True.
This is accurate.
SPEAKER_01 (12:06):
Um, very circuitous uh route here.
But actually, as you said, man,I mean, I find in in a lot of
ways uh we we are kind ofshepherding a new era of
diplomacy through travel.
So I I often say this, and Iknow Dan, you hear me talk about
this at at our differentconferences, but I don't think
people really understand, andand I'm sincere in this.
I I as a former diplomat, I dofeel like there's more impact
(12:28):
we're having in the tourindustry to bridge gaps on a
day-to-day basis, real peopleunderstanding each other, than
and frankly, that's not a hardit's not a hard barrier to break
when we see where our diplomacyis on a global scale now.
But um even at our best oftimes, I think uh I think travel
industry can do more fordiplomacy than diplomats do.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (12:47):
Well, I saw your diplomacy at work the very first
time we got a chance to go outtogether.
And this is when uh Ben and I,again, have known each other for
many years and have been goodfriends, and when Josh uh was
being considered for the role, Igave him a two big thumbs up
because we were uh together atthe Adventure Travel and Trade
Association conference inDenver.
We had uh an epic uh adventureof racing uh scooters on the
(13:09):
street and even went out for anight of karaoke with our
friends over at Intrepid, who umuh are also now clients
ultimately, not specificallybecause of the karaoke, but it
was uh it showed me that youcould add both sides to you know
your background, you'reknowledgeable, you love travel,
and also you're just great withcustomer engagement.
And obviously, I you know we goton for the moment that we met.
(13:29):
And um, but I would I would loveto hear from your vantage point
what attracted you to TourOptima.
I know what I saw when I uhfirst got the demo from Ben.
I'm sure you had a similarreaction, but what made you
decide to jump on board?
SPEAKER_01 (13:42):
Yeah, I mean, I I think just to take a step back,
obviously what attracted me tothe attractive the travel space
in general was definitely theability to a couple things.
One is obviously the message ofwhat travel is and what it can
stand for.
And as I think we all want towake up in the morning and feel
like we're doing somethingmeaningful to change the world
for the better, I I genuinelyfeel like that's that's what the
travel industry can be and isdoing and can do more of.
(14:04):
And so I wanted to go towardsthat.
And then when I saw the trends,you know, 10 years ago when I
was really in the e-commercespace and I launched uh the
e-commerce innovation lab forthe Department of Commerce, it
was really out of the idea thatthere are tons of companies out
there that just don't understandthe technology and have to get
online.
They have to get online tobecome competitive globally.
And the SMB space was definitelylagging, and there was a lot of
kind of need to educate onhighly technical uh skills and
(14:27):
tools for e-commerceoptimization.
And then you you fast forward 10years, when I start to see where
the trend is in the travelspace, you go in, and I'm sure
there's a lot of operators outthere that feel this way.
You go into these travel spaces,these conferences, and you're
like a dealer deer in aheadlight because you you you
see 50 different things, they'reall seem similar, they've got
all the right buzzwords, andthey it's hard to differentiate
and see where these actuallyapplies to you.
(14:49):
And I felt like that's a greattrend to be on, where you're now
starting to do what I like todo, which is educate, not just
sell.
And so when we start to educatecompanies on how to do things
better and what tools to use, itwas just kind of serendipitous
that I met Ben really throughBruce, also at Arrival and the
whole crew.
And when you start, as you said,when you see the demo and you
see where the technology is, yousay, wow, this is something that
(15:10):
operators need.
So this isn't about uh it's notabout vaporware, it's not about
telling them something that'ssome weird niche of their
operations.
It's fundamental.
And when you see operators say,wow, as a B2B technical SaaS
business development person, itsells itself.
So I don't, I I felt like Icould get behind this and and
really help.
And as Ben was saying with thepartnerships, um, to me, I'm
(15:31):
very into better together, howdo we work together as partners,
public-private partnerships?
So the associations that you andI met from the association uh
the Adventure Travel TradeAssociation, and then uh we
looked at uh outside, and thenyou look at arrival, and all
these partners are reallyfundamental to to rising tide.
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Yeah, one of the things I just want to call out
too, Josh, is when you coming onboard and you know, knowing Ben
as well as I have for years,it's an interesting combination
between the two of you guys.
And but one of the things Iwanted to highlight to all of
our listeners is how theplatform has evolved from what
and what the core facets of theplatform actually are.
Because I think that's actuallyimportant for our listeners to
(16:09):
understand.
I'm sure many people aremultitasking while we're having
this conversation looking attour optima.com.
We're gonna make sure that wehave some specific details for
you in a moment about how youcan get a personalized demo so
you can really understand how itwould work for your tour
business or your attraction.
But going back to the core, Ben,of what you built with this
platform, I would love for youjust to walk us through what
some of the core facets are ofthe Tour Optima platform that
(16:33):
have been kind of the gamechangers for many of your
clients.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
First and foremost, communications platforms.
So uniting SMS, WhatsApp, OTAs,emails into a single view,
whereby the office staff, thebat I'm talking about the back
office staff, the front officestaff, anyone on the ground, the
guides, the coordinators, andthe guests are united in single
conversation threads.
(16:58):
And for multi-day operators,that is ensuring that before day
one, the group has time toconnect with each other in a
secure way where they're notgiven each other's contact
information, but they cancommunicate and opt in.
Once that tour guide or the tripleader joins that experience,
we're able to involve them inthe conversation and taking that
(17:19):
through to the conclusion of theexperience and making sure that
it's a single cohesive unifiedjourney that lives within the
tour operator's CRM andvisibility.
SPEAKER_02 (17:31):
One of the things I wanted to specifically ask you
around this is because I stillremember when you were initially
pitching to the operation sideof the business, and this is
where there's a real difficultywhen you're working the
operation side and you'vecreated systems that work, that
function.
There may not be optimal andthey may lose revenue or uh cost
time, but you're right, you'vebuilt something that you're, you
(17:52):
know, you're continually tryingto just manage.
It's very difficult to wrap yourhead around something else that
could completely change the wayyou operate, but ultimately
would make you more efficientand I've and make it for a much
a much better experience foryour clients.
And so I know one of the thingsthat Ben evolved was actually
getting the messaging right forCEOs and executives so they
could really understand thevalue of introducing a platform
like this.
And so on that topic, because Ithink that's the real pain point
(18:15):
that I, you know, I saw veryearly on, is that if people use
Tor Optima, like a white labelplatform, to be able to optimize
the guest experience on a daytour or multi-day tour.
And as you said, Ben, like youknow, either, if they're just
adjoining a tour, how do youmake sure they have an amazing
experience, write positivereviews, come back?
And ultimately, that's themeasure of success that is going
to increase revenue.
So tell us if you wouldn't mindfrom you know what you saw
(18:37):
initially when you looked atoperators that were using the
platform.
Whether was it about being moreefficient with time or was it
increasing revenue or acombination of both?
What were the things that theyweren't even realizing they were
missing that were the biggestbenefits of them switching over
to this platform in the firstplace?
SPEAKER_00 (18:53):
Being proactive.
Many times as an operator, youare responding to issues as they
come up, and then you'refirefighting those issues.
And our goal is to map out thoseissues in advance, figure out
how do we automate processes toprevent those issues from
happening in the first place.
(19:13):
And when they do happen,automate them either through uh
rules or now AI.
And that process will take thedirector of operations or the
director of customer success andexperience and have their call
center dramatically improved,response times improved,
happiness of the employeesimproved, uh, happiness of the
(19:34):
guests improve, and it allrelates together.
We're we're ensuring that everyguest has a great experience so
that when they when we send themthat review request, we know
they've had a great experiencebecause they've they've made the
tour on time, they've met upwith their tour guide, they've
uh had a great mid-tripcheck-in, and now we're finally
(19:55):
sending them the post-tripreview, and we know they've had
a good experience on thatexperience on that tour.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
And that's where getting the core and the
fundamentals obviously was so uhimportant to your uh initial
customers and their success thatare continued to be on the
platform.
And I know you guys have beencontinuing to build out the
platform as Tor Optima has uhhas expanded, you know, quite
significantly in the last uhcouple of years.
And you know, seeing you all inaction uh just recently at the
arrival conference in Valencia,as you mentioned, Josh,
(20:20):
obviously Bruce is a greatfriend to us all.
And the arrival conference issuch a uh a unique and important
conference, especially for daytours and attractions.
And I saw your booth absolutelyslammed for those three days of
the event.
You guys hosted the welcomeparty, and it was really cool to
see you guys in action.
And Hannah's well on your team,but the whole team there in your
booth can continuously buzzingwith people looking at the
(20:42):
features and the capabilities.
And I spoke to a few operatorsat the event who were we just
switched over to Tour Optima, orwe actually just had a demo.
We're about to start using TourOptima.
And so on that note, Josh, Iwanted to bring you back into
this because there's obviously alot of newer features you've
introduced, a lot ofcapabilities that have been
requested.
Um, so tell us a little bitabout what drove some of those
additions, you know, markettrends, but also specifically uh
(21:05):
what your clients have beenrequesting.
What are the things that thatstand out to you being, you
know, I guess now just over ayear in the role and seeing uh
all the momentum and success?
What are the things that standout to you about the features
and capabilities of touroperations?
SPEAKER_01 (21:17):
Yeah, and I think speaking to the on the backs of
what we were just talking about,let me try that again.
So talking a little bit aboutthe three pillars of I think
where we add value, right?
We delight the guests, we'reincreasing revenue, the lifetime
value.
So if you're a multi-day, it'sreally about the lifetime value
engagement with the guest toincrease the what we call in the
e-commerce world the averageorder value, the average
lifetime value of a guest, andthen it's the operational
(21:39):
efficiency.
And so kind of staying true tothat, and I think Ben and I go
back and forth a lot because weget a lot of requests from
different operators.
As you know, you have fiveoperators, you get 17 different
requests, and we want to makesure that we accommodate
everybody, but we want to staytrue to where we're adding the
most value, as you said, right?
So we want to make sure is therequest going to add revenue?
Is it going to delight guests?
Is it going to improve?
(22:00):
Operational efficiency.
And so one of the things thathave come up, I mean, the people
that when we speak to operators,the people that love us out of
the gate, often the operationspeople are thrilled.
Uh, the revenue folks, they theywant they see the the dollar
signs go in, and the marketingteam.
And so we've been askedfeature-wise to look at how we
can help them articulate to thewider internal audience through
dashboard analytics what's goingon and what's being effective
(22:22):
and what isn't.
Where can they push the buttonsto wring out more value from the
existing guests, especially in aworld where we're seeing some
tourism trends, as you say,travel trends around headwinds?
How do we get more value out ofthe ones that already are
committed and traveling?
And that's that's in thedashboard, in analytics, it's in
uh obviously AI features.
We just incorporatedmultilingual AI, you know, so we
(22:44):
we have the ability for AI torespond in any language, and
then now the ability for anoperator to look on that
response and before it's sent,translate it to their language
so they can understand it andsend it over.
So getting uh just broader toolswithin the dashboard.
Ben, I'm not sure if I've missedanything there.
SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
Overall, we work now with so many different
operators, and uh of thoseoperators, thousands of customer
service reps who are writing inwith phenomenal feature
requests.
And each of these featurerequests seems small
individually, but together theycreate a powerhouse of a system
for an operations team, forrevenue management teams, or our
(23:22):
operators as a whole.
So that's what really providesvalue to the platform.
And I think as we think aboutthe proliferation of AI tools,
AI is phenomenal if you knowexactly what you want to create.
But it will not invent thenuances that an operations team
in Cancun that deals with tripsout to Chichinitsa has to deal
with every day.
Right now, there's a massivestrike over at Chichinitsa and
(23:44):
it's it's closed.
The vendors are up in armsbecause they're being delegated
to uh stands outside of theythink they're not gonna be able
to sell as much.
Operators have to reroute gueststhat have booked months in
advance that are taking aonce-in-a-lifetime vacation to
one of three different sites.
So imagine you're a guest, youget to Mexico, you're told, hey,
you can't go to Chichinitsatoday.
You we're gonna send you off toa different archaeological site.
(24:08):
How do you frame that in a waywhere that guest says, hey, that
sounds great.
I'm not gonna cancel my trip.
I'm gonna be excited about this.
The photos look great, sign meup.
Getting that nuance down andmaking sure that you can retain
99% of guests and they're happyat the end of that experience is
something that just requires adeep understanding of the market
(24:30):
and requires a uh a lot ofnuances.
SPEAKER_02 (24:34):
You've both brought us some really interesting
points.
Obviously, Josh bringing up AIand Ben, even as you were
speaking there, just with thehuman touch and given how things
change uh within a specificdestination, as you just
outlined in Chichen Itsa, Iactually just did that trip
recently and I was in Cancunwith my family and we did a
Chichen day tour, and it wasfantastic.
But there wasn't a lot oftechnology in that particular
(24:54):
experience.
And so um, and so it's one ofthe things I do want to get into
is the human touch andtechnology.
But before we do, one of thethings you had mentioned at the
beginning of our conversation,Ben, when you look at the
industry and how it's evolving,one thing is that operators are
being forced to modernize muchfaster in the face of not only
Uber, but Amazon, Airbnb, theywant instant digital
(25:15):
experiences.
So that's the expectation, whichreally changes and puts a lot of
pressure on operators to be ableto introduce technology and
something that we've talkedabout extensively on this
podcast over the last few yearsis the fact that most people get
into the travel industry becausethey want to delight customers
and they want to have amazingtravel experiences, not because
they are experts in technologyand they have to find a way to
(25:37):
start to leverage technology.
But most travel companies arejust that.
They're travel companies, nottechnology companies.
And this is what's unique aboutcompanies like Tor Optima is you
are a technology company thatserves the travel industry.
So on that note, I do want toget into AI because this is one
of those things that ifoperators are being forced to go
down this path, they may bethinking, oh, I can spend a
(25:57):
weekend vibe coding a platform,or I can, you know, try and
create something and I canstitch these things together and
potentially creating more of anissue.
And so let's talk about how youguys have integrated AI because
I still remember, Ben, when youjoined our AI summit, one of the
things you talked about wassentiment analysis of being able
to understand if people arehaving uh some difficulties on
(26:18):
their trip, the most importantthing you can do is solve it
right there in the moment, notallow that to occur, and they go
home and then they write anegative review.
And that's one of the benefitsof the Tour Optima platform that
really stood out to me is thatyou can do sentiment analysis by
virtue of AI.
So let's let's highlight to allof our listeners where you guys
have integrated AI into theplatform.
So I'd love to hear that fromyou, Ben.
(26:38):
And then Josh, you can jump backin to kind of highlight where
you guests are asking you orwhere your clients are asking
you to continue to develop.
But yeah, Ben, tell us a littlebit of how you've got to build
AI into the platform.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Yeah, so previously the status quo was everyone's on
WhatsApp, communicating offplatform.
This this is last-minuteemergencies as they develop.
And by centralizing that, youcan still use WhatsApp as a
delivery method, but by usingTor Optima, you assemble a very
large knowledge base of what'swhat's going on, what are all
the problems that you face as abusiness, what are taking up the
(27:12):
most time, what's having themost customer dissatisfaction.
And you as an operator cancreate and craft a knowledge
base and processes and protocolsthat solve this proactively
instead of reactively.
And if you do have a customerwho's who's writing in, how are
you going to deal with that?
And the nuances are insanelycomplicated.
Every single OTA has differentrefund policies and cancellation
(27:35):
policies.
If you need to reschedulesomeone at Chechenitsa because
of the strike that's going onand the massive uh situation
there, it's going to the way inwhich you reschedule them is
going to depend on the policiesof the agent or the OTA.
We're in a very special businesswhere our many of our customers
are customers through an agentor through an agency.
(27:56):
And it really separates thetravel industry from many, many
other industries.
When I buy sneakers, I go to thestore and I buy a pair of
sneakers.
When I buy a travel experience,I might go through an agency, an
OTA, or a local travel agent topurchase that experience.
And making sure that everyone'skept in the loop and follows the
right guidelines is an immensechallenge.
So that's one of the areas thatwe're really looping in AI in
(28:18):
being able to analyze policies,handle that proactively.
And it's a big training effortfrom our end into giving
operators the tools tounderstand Reg, understand a
knowledge base, understand howdo I tweak my knowledge base to
deliver the types of suggestedand automated responses that I'm
looking to deliver and set myguidelines such that AI will
(28:40):
only respond to customers ordeal with certain issues if it's
above a certain confidencethreshold.
So we've we've in the last sixmonths, as everyone knows with
Opus and Claude, just taken offexponentially when it comes to
the capabilities.
And and this is something thatneeds to be truly harnessed and
funneled into the into the rightdirection as opposed to, hey, I
(29:03):
am looking to build a callcenter or a contact center.
Please vibe code it for mebecause it's not going to
understand the nuances of thetravel industry and that OTA
agency dynamic that I justmentioned.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
Yeah.
And Josh, on that, I mean,obviously, you're seeing a
number of operators utilizingTor Optima and also embracing AI
as you guys have into yourstack.
Um I'd love to hear if theremight be some really interesting
use cases or hacks that you'reseeing of how uh creative use
cases for uh Tor operators usingusing Tor Optima and leveraging
AI.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
Sure.
Um I was just imagining, though,Ben's example of buying a shoe
and what it would be like if ifit were actually like Tor.
So you'd basically have aprivate shopper that would shop
on your behalf, buy the shoe,and then if you wanted to change
the size, you couldn'tcommunicate directly with the
store, nor could the storecommunicate with you.
You'd have to go through anactual personal shopper who'd
have to then go back and forth.
It would slow up the economysignificantly.
(29:54):
And that's right.
That's that's I guess what we'redealing with.
And so I, you know, I think Ijust want to highlight some of
the bigger things that one ofthe things that operators take
advantage of our platform aroundis the manifest view, the
ability to message all theguests, all the different
channels that Ben talked about,where it's unique messages based
on who the guest is and whatchannel perhaps they purchased
from, but then doing it at scaleon a on a manifest level where
(30:15):
you can send everybody on aspecific tour a message, know
that they get it, but it doesit's going to be different for
everybody depending on whatchannel they came into.
Right.
I don't know if everyone reallyhit home on that.
That ability, operators whounderstand that and then are
leveraging that to then alsocreate the right upsells based
on the channel or no upsells ifthey're coming in through, let's
say, OTA channels, right?
So there's there's certain waysthat operators, if they do it
(30:35):
right, they're doing it atscale.
And frankly, you cannot do it ifyou don't do it through a
platform like ours because youcan't do that at scale.
You'd go crazy, try todifferentiate which upsells are
gonna go to which guest based onwhich channel, right?
Um so I think that's a a majorvalue prop and also a major
challenge that they have.
Similar to disruptions, right?
Operators want to tell everybodythey need, there's no option to
not tell people that the tour iscanceled, that the entrance is
(30:58):
moved, that the weather hasimpacted things, but they need
to know that everyone's gonnaget that.
And that has to happen at scalewithout everybody calling or
messaging every individualguest.
And we do that.
Um so those are so there's someadded um features.
Uh well.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Yeah, one of the things great.
One of the things I uh was justgonna add, I've certainly seen
you know the value that'screated operationally by using
the Tor Optima platform and howyou guys are continuing to
integrate AI, and obviouslyyou'll be a part of our summit
again uh later this year.
And so we're gonna continue tohave those conversations.
But one of the things thatalways comes up when we're
talking about AI uh is that whatis the role for the human touch?
(31:35):
And I am a big advocate, as Ithink you both know, uh, that
really in the face of AI, peopleare going to desire human
connection that much more.
However, where we see AI beingutilized is very much in
automating some of theseworkflows.
And actually, and and when Ilook at the tour optimal
platform, the thing that standsout to me is you very much have
this concept of a tour leader ora guide that you are improving
(31:57):
the experience for the guests tobetter facilitate the guide
doing what they do best, whichis guiding the tours and making
sure that they're creating agreat experience.
So I would love to hear yourtake on this.
Like when you think of uh anoperator work workflow, like
when you think of an operator,what what is the value of
automation and what do you thinkstill requires a human touch?
SPEAKER_01 (32:17):
I'm gonna give an example that kind of weaves
right between the two.
Personalization.
Operators that personalize theirmessaging from day one all the
way through to who's asking fora review, putting a name to
those tours and to the guests,have a lot higher conversion, a
lot better guest satisfaction,and actually reduce their
no-shows because people feelthey've engaged with the actual
(32:37):
operator, the actual guidebefore they've arrived.
So wonderful personalization.
Now the question is could youuse AI to do that?
Yes.
We use AI so that the tourguide, who's not necessarily
starting to work until the dayof the tour, is actually sending
messages that are personalizedto the guests.
The guests feel they're gettinga personal message from the
guide, but the guide is actuallynot having to send that message
(32:58):
themselves.
Um, similarly, the pictures, thephotos, right?
We personalize photos and mapthem in the in the system for a
guide can actually have theirown photo.
When the guest is assigned tothat guide on that tour, they're
going to get a personalizedphoto and the name of that guide
welcoming them.
That does not have to be actualhuman sending those out.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
Yeah, so I would say that with all of the emphasis on
AI and AI suites, there is a lotlost to rule-based orders and
flows.
And when it comes to travel andOTAs at scale and bookings and
booking notes and dietarypreferences and allergies, there
(33:38):
is a lot of rule-based ordersthat will always exist to
prevent any misunderstandingwith an AI.
So, for example, if a pickuppoint is specified in the
system, there is no need toinvolve AI in terms of aside
from the guest asking, hey, whendo I need to leave my hotel to
get to the pickup point?
(33:59):
Yes, that is something that weneed to involve AI for.
But there is this tendency, Ithink, at the moment to think
that everything should be vibecoded and AI can just handle the
whole workflow.
When we're talking about peoplethat are taking a
once-in-a-lifetime vacation,there are certain things that
you want to be very, veryspecific and never get wrong
because 0.01% is still too muchto get wrong.
SPEAKER_02 (34:23):
Yeah, and we've certainly seen that.
Like if you look at the uh MikeColetta and the work that
FocusRight has done with thelatest AI utilization from a
customer point of view, it'soverwhelmingly they're using it
for planning, but not forbooking.
And the big reason they're notusing it for booking is trust.
And you're absolutely right,Ben, that one of the things that
we continually talk about on thepodcast is the fact that when it
comes to people's holidays, it'sactually more important than the
money they've spent.
It's the time that they have.
(34:43):
And so the reality is they'realso booking on different
platforms.
So you brought up OTAs, and Iwanted to ask you about that as
well, because at every arrivalconference, it's always about
distribution and connectivityand the challenges that many
operators have because they havedifferent booking systems and
CRMs and different payment uh uhprocesses, and then these
(35:04):
messaging tools, and they workwith all these different
distribution partners.
So you've obviously seen thatevolve over the last few years,
and it's more complex than evertoday.
So very keen to get your take onthat as it relates to operators
listening to this to try andfigure out you know, utilizing a
platform like Tor Optima.
How important is connectivity intheir consideration of
implementing a solution likethis?
SPEAKER_00 (35:26):
We our platform supports operators that do not
have a booking system in place.
So a lot of multi-day operatorshave not found a booking
solution and a booking systemthat works for them.
Uh, some of the largest ATORoperators are still on their own
custom systems.
So we do not require that.
What we have found is having abooking system leads to a lot of
(35:47):
efficiencies because the bookingsystem serves as a hub and
almost almost the operatingsystem on which apps can then be
built.
So we consider ourselves as acommunication system and portal,
an app, uh a service that sitson top of the core booking data.
That core booking data better be100% up to date, current, have
(36:09):
all the pickups in the system,have all the resource
assignments.
That needs to be in place forcommunications to work.
Because if if that is not inplace and you don't know when
your tours are leaving, youhaven't uh dynamically priced
your tours based onavailability, you don't have a
channel manager to manage all ofyour OTA relationships.
Uh, if if you don't have that,you're you're gonna be
(36:30):
firefighting forever.
And we're only adopting aservice like ours is is
moderately helpful, but you'restill gonna be firefighting.
So you need to have a centralsystem as an operator.
SPEAKER_01 (36:40):
And taking a full arc back to the original
discussion around, to me, thetrends around e-commerce and
where this is now, you're seeingyou know, in the e-commerce
world, the backbone of abusiness was really the website
and the interface, and Shopifybecame that backbone in many
cases.
And then everything's a bolt-on.
And the best, and then you canchoose your best and breed.
What we're seeing is that it'sit's really arrived to the point
(37:00):
where the ResTech is, as Ben'ssaying, the backbone of an
operational kind ofinfrastructure.
And then what is the best andbreed that you can bolt onto
that and what works mostseamlessly with that?
SPEAKER_02 (37:09):
Well, and this is where obviously the most modern,
if you will, like tour andactivity providers are utilizing
technology that will serve theircustomers because they know
their value of repeat business.
And um, customer retention,lifetime customer value is is as
important as it's ever been.
And I think that the operationalexperience is ultimately where
you know it can fall down.
(37:30):
That's that's ultimately theexperience people are looking
for.
So I'm keen to finish off with acouple of tips from you guys
when it comes to revenue andgrowth that every tour operator
is looking for today, andobviously trying to make a
decision on who they partnerwith, what platforms they use.
And one of the decisions alwaysaround using a platform is the
cost of a platform.
(37:50):
And it's so interesting when Benand I were having these
discussions with some of thepartners that are now part of
Tour Optima, you know, when youlook at, and I've had this
experience because I know whatit's like when I'm on the
operator side looking attechnology and the idea of it
being a cost, but the reality isit actually is going to increase
revenue and it's gonna, and fora number of reasons.
So I keen to ask you on thisquestion, Josh.
(38:10):
When it comes to revenue andgrowth, you're clearly hearing
existing clients that areextending your relationship with
you, other clients that arecoming on board.
A couple of tips from you when Iwhen you look at operators and
where they're leaking revenuetoday, and you know what you
would say separate some of thesehigh growth operators from
everybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Okay, sure.
I'll say uh three things, andI'm sure Ben will have five
more, but um one is obviouslypersonalized, personalize,
personalize.
You can do that at scale, makingsure people feel that they're
engaged with the guide when it'svet when it's that's appropriate
or somebody specifically uh andthat the and that the operator
knows who they are, what they'vebooked.
Uh the second thing I'd say ismaking sure that you are uh
(38:49):
selling the right thing to theright guest.
The idea of blasting everybodysaying, hey, we just got this
really cool coach tour, uheveryone, just everyone, 15% off
coach tour.
It's that may or may not be thebest sell for everybody, right?
And and if you can do it atscale, make sure you're selling
the right thing.
And if you don't have thosethings in your portfolio, either
partner with someone who does.
We're seeing a lot of uptick inrevenue from partnerships
(39:09):
between operators and betweenproducts, or get the product, or
think creatively about theproduct.
If you can infuse a lunch cellin there, infuse a lunch cell.
And then the the the lossrevenue and that leakages, I
think, speaks to um no shows,cancellations, the inability to
re rebook people at a different,more appropriate time based on
maybe their weather or theirrequirements, maybe doing it at
(39:31):
scale and making sure thatpeople get what they want before
they either decide not to showup or they give a bad review.
Ben, where did I miss?
I'll do perfectly.
SPEAKER_02 (39:40):
Yeah, Josh.
Um you're hired.
Josh, you're hired.
Nice.
I you know, I learned from thebest.
Um yeah.
Well, let's talk about on thatnote because obviously you're a
key part of the future of TorOptima.
So as much as we joke, I mean,obviously, yes, it's um it's
been great to see the dynamicbetween the two of you and then
certainly seeing you atconferences, and you know, we're
gonna be together again at manyof the big industry conferences
(40:03):
over the course of 26 and 27.
I wanted to finish off to talkabout where the industry is
headed.
I know that you and the teamhave been very focused on
future-proofing Tor Optima.
You've got some of the biggestclients in both the day tour and
the multi-day tour spaceutilizing the platform.
They're gonna continue to makesure that it's feature complete
and and does everything thatclients continue to expect.
(40:24):
So tell us a little bit aboutwhere the industry is headed and
and specifically why peopleshould be considering Tor
Optima.
So maybe we'll we'll start withBen and then we'll go to you,
Josh, and then we'll make sureeveryone knows how to connect
with you guys and also arrangeto book a demo.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
Yeah, I think the level of customization and
personalization based on theoperator and the tour, and
whether it's pickups, whetherthe tour is meeting points,
whether it's day or multi-day,whether there is a foundation
that the operator might want tosupport based on the where in
the world the guest might be,based on geo-aware
notifications, all of theseattributes and and what the
(40:57):
expression I like to use is thedevil is in the details.
And it's only until you get intothe details that you find out
that that's really an apt aptexpression.
And we've gone down so manydifferent, I would say,
communication rabbit holes,rabbit holes being a good word
in this case, of solving painpoints that a specific client
(41:20):
that does swamp tours in NewOrleans might have regarding
their pickups at 6 p.m.
to take people to the to theboat tours.
How that differs from theColiseum, how that differs from
Chechenitza, how that differsfrom a customer landing uh in in
Morocco, right?
To to set out on a week-longexperience and then having
travel disrupted due to a due toa war in the Middle East.
(41:41):
All of these things are whatseparates, I would say, us in
terms of how we think about ourbusiness and the level of care
that we provide.
And I really as a company, I'vemade it our mission culturally
to treat every operator'sbusiness as if it's our own.
So when we see an issue like thewar in the Middle East break out
or an issue at Chechenitza,which we discussed, how do we
(42:02):
proactively go in and suggestways of helping these operators
solve that problem?
SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
Yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Yeah, I mean, I I think, first of all, I think
that the there's a lot ofconsolidation of tools.
I think people are workingtogether more and more.
There's uh there'sinfrastructures we know around
standardization aroundtechnology.
Uh so I think that's a greatthing.
I think that we're seeing uhsome out some we're seeing some
technologies really come out ofthe gate and we really see how I
want to answer this.
(42:32):
I think we're seeing a lot oftrends around consolidation and
collaboration between technologytools.
We're seeing standardization, aswe know with Octo and others.
I think that we're seeing umoperators really look to what is
gonna be effective versus whatsounds like it's a great idea,
and then you try it.
There's not as much of aninterest in trying something and
then having it fail six monthslater.
They recognize like tried andtrue is important.
(42:53):
Um, I think for us, in terms ofTor Optima, our ideal client is
a client that's well educated,that has enough volume that they
can see those incremental valuesthat that are being brought to
the table and both inoperational efficiency as well
as a revenue.
Um, it doesn't necessarily haveto be the largest companies in
the world, but it does have tobe a company that's willing to
invest in growth in the properinfrastructure, that core
(43:14):
foundation, because you know, wewe find that the companies that
see what we do and get it arewilling to put the investment
both financially but also in thetime.
When you see under the hood, yousee how much work we do.
We're not a traditional SaaSsolution where we pay us a month
and we walk away.
Every month we'll get thatreoccurring revenue.
We work with you very deeply onhow to how to create those right
messaging flows that, as Ben wassaying, it's just it's it's
(43:36):
about understanding the nuancesof the only industry that we
work in.
Um so I think that people often,and I don't think we do a good
enough job, and I have to workon this with a team, of
articulating the intimate workwe do with each operator.
Uh and unfortunately, peoplefind that out afterwards and
they love it.
They don't necessarily want totell all the other operators
that that's the key key sauce.
Uh but we have that's wherewe're gonna be focused a lot
(43:58):
more in the in the coming yearsis finding the right.
Clients that get it and thatwant to grow versus those who
you know just think of it as anincremental, minor, minor, not a
fundamental value add.
SPEAKER_02 (44:08):
Yeah, well, you both know I'm big believers in both
of you, the team, and whatyou've built with Tor Optima.
And I know from uh speaking tomany of your clients how happy
they are.
And I want to make sure that allof our listeners that are
looking to increase revenue andfuture-proof their business and
make sure that they're meetingthe clients uh where their needs
are today from a technologypoint of view for you know day
tour, multi-day, but also theattraction, something we can get
(44:30):
into in more detail and uhfuture conversation.
And uh, but in terms ofconnecting with you, obviously
I've mentioned the website.
What would be the best way foreveryone to be able to reach
out?
Obviously, Josh, that's yourrole now, so I'm not gonna put
that on you, Ben.
So, Josh, what are the best waysto connect with you, the team,
and to be able to arrange ademo?
SPEAKER_01 (44:46):
The best is Dan's personal number.
I'll pull it up right now.
Anytime and I'll I'll I'll readI'll redirect you.
I think that we'll we'll put ademo link in that's unique to
Travel Trends and we'll send itover.
You can share that with theaudience.
I think that's the best way todo it.
I just want to preface it bysaying Ben, myself, the entire
team very deeply cares aboutwhat we do.
(45:06):
Uh we are perfectionists, sosometimes to a fault.
We really want to work withcompanies that get it.
Um, so do not hesitate to reachout.
Uh, and and as you as you know,we we're we love each other, we
love the team, we really enjoywhat we do.
So otherwise that that wouldn'tget us up in the morning.
So uh let's stay in touch.
SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
That definitely shows.
Thank you, Ben.
Thank you, Josh.
Great to have you back on TravelTrends.
I wish you and the team everysuccess in 2026.
Uh, look forward to seeing youat many of the conferences and
keeping in touch.
Thanks for your support oftravel trends as well and have
certainly a very bright futureahead.
So thanks again to you guys forjoining us today.
Thank you, Dan, for all you do,man.
SPEAKER_01 (45:39):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:39):
Thank you.
And that's a wrap for our latestspotlight episode of Travel
Trends.
I hope you enjoyed myconversation with Josh and Ben.
Thanks again to you both forjoining me and having this
conversation around the futureof tours and activities.
Obviously, I'm very bullish onthe future of Tour Optima and
what you and the team havebuilt.
And I think one of the thingsthat stood out to me most about
(46:00):
this conversation is that it'snot simply about technology,
it's really about solvingreal-world challenges that tour
operators, attractions, andactivity providers face every
day.
And one of the things that wediscussed is these disconnected
systems and manual processes,which still exist far too
commonly across the industry,and where we need to get to with
automation, connectivity,personalization, and really
(46:23):
making for a seamless guestexperience.
And as you heard, over thecourse of our conversation, we
explored the growing impact ofartificial intelligence,
changing customer expectations,and why operators need to think
beyond simply taking bookingsand really focusing on the
entire guest journey.
Ben, having known him for somany years, it's so exciting to
see your Tor Optima journeycontinue to unfold.
(46:45):
And Josh, it's exciting to seeyour expertise and perspective
being brought into the businessand the success that you and the
team are having as you'rerolling out new clients across
the industry and attending allthe big trade shows, which it's
always great to see you guys at.
And I think one of the biggesttakeaways for me from today's
conversation is that the futurereally belongs to operators who
embrace connected technology,automating repetitive tasks,
(47:08):
leveraging AI intelligently, andthat will focus relentlessly on
delivering exceptional customerexperiences.
For our listeners, if you're atour operator, attraction,
activity provider, or tourismbusiness looking to streamline
your operations, improve guestcommunications, increase
revenue, and really future-proofyour organization, I strongly
encourage you to learn moreabout what the Tor Optima team
(47:31):
is building.
And you can request a demo withthe following link:
Toroptima.com slash traveltrends.
So you'll be able to connectdirectly with the team and be
given a very personalized demofor listening to this episode
and reaching out.
And that link again isToroptima.com slash travel
trends.
You can see firsthand howToroptima is helping operators
(47:53):
simplify operations, enhance theguest experience, and really
create a more connectedbusiness.
And on that note, thank youagain, Ben and Josh, for sharing
so many valuable insights withus and your vision for the
future of our industry.
And thanks to everyone whojoined us around the world for
this episode of Travel Trends.
Until next time, safe travels.
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