January 26, 2026 • 43 mins
This episode is dedicated to MsBoye and those that we have lost from "Actual Lives." After a tribute to MsBoye from Jennifer McKinney, Adam and Celia discuss Maggie Jochild's "Crip Ward Tango" and do a reenactment of it with music. Celia also reads Maggie Jochild's "Elvis Lives" piece. Celia and Adam talk about their memories of MsBoye and Mike Burns, and Celia reads Mike Burns' "Mop Boy." We end with John Beer's tribute to MsBoye.
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For more details about our programs go to Art Spark Texas, True Tales Podcast Page.
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Episode Transcript
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Kristen Gooch (00:09):
Welcome to True Tales by Disability Advocates
Podcast.
Authentic voices of peoplethriving with disabilities,
where individuals use the art ofstorytelling to change the
world.
John Beer (00:22):
The True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast is
produced by Art Spark Texas'Speaking Advocates Program.
The free virtual training isopen to people of all
disabilities, no matter whereyou live.
Kamand Alaghehband (00:35):
Keep listening to hear how life's
challenges can spark a desire tospeak out and advocate for
yourself and others.
MsBoye (00:50):
Hello, you're listening to the True Tales by Disability
Advocates Podcast.
Changing the world one story ata time.
This is the show whereadvocates harness the power of
storytelling to build communitywith their peers and develop
empathy in others.
Hello everyone.
I'm MsBoye.
Jennifer McKinney (01:09):
I'm Jennifer McKinney.
Adam Griebel (01:11):
I'm Adam Griebel.
MsBoye (01:12):
And we are your hosts for season three.
Jennifer McKinney (01:22):
Hi, my name is Jennifer McKinney and I'm a
co-host of Season 3.
While all jobs are important ina podcast team, it takes a
unique and extremely hardworkingperson to keep the team going
and on the right track.
Last year, we lost that vitalpodcast member.
(01:43):
Her name was MsBoye.
She was more than a self-taughtpodcaster and editor.
MsBoye wore many hats atArt Spark Texas and in the
Austin community.
She was a thespian, poet, had agreat British sense of humor,
and was an advocate for all.
(02:04):
In 2024, she asked me to jointhe podcast production team as
co-host.
I feel fortunate to have beenable to work with her on the
True Tales by DisabilityAdvocates podcast.
In summary, MsBoye is gone, butnot forgotten.
In her honor, we are going tocontinue the podcast episodes
(02:28):
with the same spirit anddevotion as Ms Boye might say.
The show must go on.
Celia Hughes (02:35):
So Adam.
So Meg Barnett was one of shewasn't the original in the
original company, but she cameon pretty early on.
This story was
Adam Griebel (02:43):
I remember her actually in the original show.
Celia Hughes (02:45):
I don't think she was in the very first show, but
because this the Elvis Lives wasin uh 2002, and our first show
was in in 2000.
So
Adam Griebel (02:55):
Didn't we start didn't we start in '98?
Celia Hughes (02:59):
No, we started in 2000.
So talk to talk to us aboutyour memories of Meg.
Adam Griebel (03:04):
I remember her.
I don't know if this is becauseshe was positioned this way, or
if this is just a role shespent into.
She put herself in a leadershiprole in the actual lives cast,
I felt.
Celia Hughes (03:17):
And what did that look like when you say she's in
a leadership role?
Adam Griebel (03:20):
Well, when when we did Crip Ward Tango, that was
her piece.
Celia Hughes (03:24):
Right.
And she wrote a couple of otherpieces, didn't she?
Do the Happy Haven when peoplewere welcomed to the nursing
home?
Adam Griebel (03:32):
Yeah, I believe so.
Celia Hughes (03:33):
Okay.
Adam Griebel (03:34):
She didn't like 'cause she was involved in
the poetry slams and all thatgreat stuff back then.
Yeah.
So she had the skills.
Celia Hughes (03:44):
Yeah, she was uh can you describe Meg a little
bit, her personality?
Adam Griebel (03:48):
Well, I don't know that being lesbian can
necessarily augment yourpersonality, but maybe it gave
her a persona.
She was she was funky to saythe least.
Celia Hughes (04:00):
Yeah, and she was she was a rather large woman.
Adam Griebel (04:02):
Okay, she was huge.
Celia Hughes (04:04):
But she she carried that off really, really
well.
I don't remember, I think fromthe moment she started working
with us though, she was notwalking very well.
Adam Griebel (04:13):
No.
And I remember she eventuallygot that little Volkswagen.
It was a a scooter and she usedbasically a Volkswagen, for
lack of a better word.
Celia Hughes (04:28):
Yeah, she was she was uh she was quite a quite a
character.
So do you remember this ElvisLives piece?
Adam Griebel (04:35):
Not so much.
Celia Hughes (04:36):
Um do you remember any pieces of hers?
Adam Griebel (04:39):
I remember Crip Ward Tango.
Celia Hughes (04:41):
Yeah, and what was it about Crip Ward Tango?
Adam Griebel (04:44):
It was patterned after um Chicago.
Celia Hughes (04:48):
Yeah, it was the the cell block tango.
Adam Griebel (04:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can't watch that film these days without
immediately remembering back toI'm trying to remember my piece.
But I had a piece in there.
Celia Hughes (05:02):
Yeah, you were, you know, when you're when you
can't think, no, if when youcan't talk, people think well,
we're gonna do it.
We're gonna do it the piece.
Well, what do you rememberabout Crip Ward Tango?
Where did we perform it?
Adam Griebel (05:16):
In the Kennedy Center.
Celia Hughes (05:17):
Was it at the Kennedy Center?
Adam Griebel (05:19):
Uh eventually.
We had done it a couple oftimes.
Celia Hughes (05:22):
Yeah, but we didn't do it at the Kennedy
Center.
We did it at uh Avenue.
Adam Griebel (05:26):
K Street Theater.
Celia Hughes (05:27):
Yeah, K or H, one of the
Adam Griebel (05:29):
It was K Street Theater.
Celia Hughes (05:30):
One of the alphabets.
And uh yeah, and so TerryGalloway rehearsed you for that.
Adam Griebel (05:36):
Yes.
Celia Hughes (05:36):
Can you talk about that rehearsal?
Adam Griebel (05:38):
Wow.
Celia Hughes (05:41):
Well, that's all you can say is wow?
Adam Griebel (05:44):
Well, I got to work in direct association with
Terry Galloway.
Celia Hughes (05:50):
And what did she do?
How did she direct you?
Do you remember anything aboutthat?
You guys always look likeyou've come out of the war zone.
Adam Griebel (05:57):
Did she smoke?
No, she never smoked that Iknow of.
Maybe she smoked during thisrehearsal.
I have no idea.
Because working with her waslike working with Jerry Lewis.
Celia Hughes (06:08):
Well, yeah, well, I don't know if she'd appreciate
hearing that.
Adam Griebel (06:12):
Hopefully we won't play it for her.
Celia Hughes (06:14):
So why why Jerry why do you say that?
Adam Griebel (06:18):
Because I remember she would stick her hair with
that deputy do.
Celia Hughes (06:27):
And then she would but the the the she ran that
rehearsal like a drill sergeant,didn't she?
Adam Griebel (06:32):
Yeah, she was no screwing around.
Celia Hughes (06:34):
Yeah, she was she was if you were gonna perform at
the you know for as part of theit was the VSA International
Festival, you were gonna, youall were gonna be fabulous.
There was no doubt about that.
All right, well, we're gonnaread the Crip Ward Tango.
Crip Ward Tango, written by MegBarnett, uh Maggie Joe Child,
(06:55):
to the tune of Cell Block Tango.
So this piece had four uhensemble players.
We had Meg, Adam, TerrySteller, and Jeff Marsh.
They enter, Meg says, What'sup?
Frankenstein
(07:16):
Terry Steller, past life, Jeff Amnio.
What's up?
Adam Griebel (07:21):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:23):
Past life, amnio.
What's up?
Adam Griebel (07:28):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:30):
Past life, amnio, what's up?
Adam Griebel (07:32):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:34):
Past life, amnio, what's up?
Adam Griebel (07:36):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:37):
Past life, amnio.
Meg, you know how people alwaysask you, how are you?
How's it going?
What's up?
Sometimes it's just automatic.
But most people do care to someextent.
They keep track of yourmilestones.
And the unspoken expectation isthat if you are sick or
(08:00):
hurting, or god forbid,disabled, you're going to get
better soon.
They turn off if you aren'tbetter yet.
They make suggestions fortreatment, something somebody
can do.
So the next time they see you,your answer will be, I'm doing
better.
But what if that's never gonnabe true?
(08:23):
Are any of you ready to hearthat reply?
The chorus.
Adam Griebel (08:30):
I won't get better, I won't get better.
This is the best I'll ever be.
And when I'm older, yeah, whenI'm older, then it may be even
worse for me.
People assume that if you can'ttalk, then you can't think.
And that if you can't rememberthings fast, you must be stupid.
(08:55):
They talk to you like you'retwo years old.
And if you get frustrated, forGod's sake, don't show it.
Nothing scares people more thana dummy on the rampage.
Can you say, Frankenstein?
Celia Hughes (09:16):
chorus.
Adam Griebel (09:18):
I'm not the R-word.
I'm not the R-word, but that'san okay way to be.
Why don't you listen?
Shut up and listen, and findout what is the truth for me.
Celia Hughes (09:32):
Terry's Faith Healers.
Now there's a freak show.
We Cryps are supposed to beclose to God, or at least to
remind others of how God movesin mysterious ways.
In the new agers, they think ifyou can just identify and clear
out the blockages fromchildhood issues, or maybe it's
(09:54):
a past life thing, the cancerwill disintegrate.
Your vision will return.
They know somebody in Saucelitowho regrew a crooked spine.
Chorus.
Adam Griebel (10:07):
Mind over matter. Mind over matter.
The only problem's in yourhead.
Have you tried Jesus?
Think of his suffering.
Stop being hopeless.
Get out of bed.
Celia Hughes (10:20):
Jeff, but the biggest tragedy of all, the
worst thing that can happen to afamily is when a child is born
crippled, right?
Was it bad genes?
Was it bad choices?
Is it a lesson sent from God?
Why oh why would God let thishappen to
an innocent child?
What kind of life can he expectto have?
(10:41):
No wife, no children, that'sfor sure.
Some of their friends willwhisper, if they'd had
amniocentesis, maybe they couldhave stopped the pregnancy in
time.
What do you say to things likethat?
Adam Griebel (10:58):
I am not dead yet.
I am not dead yet.
My only obstacles are you.
I have a body.
I have a sex life.
It's time to alter your pointof view.
Celia Hughes (11:11):
What if I never heal?
Adam Griebel (11:13):
If you can't talk, you can't think.
Celia Hughes (11:16):
Have you tried Jesus?
What kind of life?
Adam Griebel (11:24):
It's time to alter your point of view.
Celia Hughes (11:31):
So these these pieces, Crip Ward Tango and
Elvis Lives, but moreimportantly, I think Crip Ward
Tango were written twenty-oneyears ago, twenty-two years ago,
quite a while ago.
How has language in thedisability community changed
over those since that time?
Adam Griebel (11:51):
You know, I know that people are still using a
bhorent language.
I mean, people that aren'tdirectly associated with the
disability movement, aren'tdisabled, don't have family
members that's disabled.
I see those people as beingoblivious to person-first
language for lack of a betterword.
Celia Hughes (12:14):
So you and I went through and when we were
recording the Crip Ward Tango,we um purposefully re replaced a
word in the song with that wereplaced it with, you know, I'm
not the R word.
Adam Griebel (12:29):
Sure.
Celia Hughes (12:29):
And so that's one thing that's happened in the
past two decades is an awarenessthat's been really brought to
the forefront by folks withintellectual disabilities about
the use of the R word and how itis such a slur.
Do you remember any kind ofconversation that we had back
(12:50):
when we were preparing Crip WardTango for performance?
Did we have any conversation atthat time?
Again, we're look we're goingback to two, you know, 2003
about the use of, you know, wewe use the word the R word, we
use the word Crip, we use theword cripple, we used all of
that.
What was the do you do youremember what the intention was
(13:11):
behind that of our using thosewords?
Adam Griebel (13:14):
I felt like we used it because we felt like we
were that pocket nation and wethen gave us license to use that
language.
Now I don't know if if whenputting it on we put a little
byline, okay, uh you can hearthis, but you can't say this.
Celia Hughes (13:32):
I don't think we did because back then, you know,
we're we're talking uh a fewdecades ago.
We were putting things on thestage that nobody put on the
stage.
Adam Griebel (13:42):
I love that.
Celia Hughes (13:43):
And we were trying to get people to we were trying
to shake people up a littlebit.
Adam Griebel (13:46):
Wake up, wake the fuck up.
Celia Hughes (13:49):
Remember what what's going on here.
Yeah, so I think you're exactlyright when you say that we
were, you know, at the forefrontof the movement, which is now
the folks with the in themovement there who have
reclaimed the fact that they'redisabled.
So you talk about person firstlanguage, and now in the 21st
(14:11):
century, we're talking aboutidentity first language.
Adam Griebel (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, and then
I didn't even think about that.
Celia Hughes (14:18):
And so what does identity first language mean to
you, Adam?
Adam Griebel (14:22):
That we as as individuals have the right to
identify ourselves whichever wwhichever way we see fit.
Celia Hughes (14:32):
And we can reclaim words that have been over the
generations come to be slurs andcome to be really negative
words, we can reclaim thosewords.
I use we, even though I'mspeaking about the larger
disability community, can claimthose words uh as their own and
(14:54):
try to repurpose and remove thethe stigma that has been
associated with those words.
But back in 2003, we werehaving those conversations about
what these words meant.
Adam Griebel (15:08):
It's time for people to get comfortable.
Celia Hughes (15:11):
I remember that we had a we had a long
conversation about that chorus.
I don't remember what weactually said, but I remember
there being discussion aboutthat one chorus.
Uh, you know, I'm not I'm notthe R word, but that's an okay
way to be.
Adam Griebel (15:26):
But we didn't we we we we didn't stammer, we just
said
Celia Hughes (15:30):
Yeah, we we were we were out there well we also
had the good cripple's oath, ifyou remember that, which we
opened every show with, which Iloved, for the same reason.
Because it was just in yourface.
It w you know?
Adam Griebel (15:45):
You know, I think that that were were we ever to
do this show again, I don'tknow.
Celia Hughes (15:52):
I don't think it would have the same impact if we
did it now, because people aremuch more uh aware of language.
Adam Griebel (15:59):
Mhmm especially in our circles.
Celia Hughes (16:02):
Yeah, yeah.
And but also young people oftoday they don't have a whole
lot of tolerance for languagethat can be construed as uh
demeaning or insulting or orhurtful.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think I think actual liveswas certainly certain.
Adam Griebel (16:23):
We We wanted to hurt people.
Celia Hughes (16:24):
Well, I don't think we wanted to hurt people.
Adam Griebel (16:26):
But we we didn't we we we we minced no words.
Celia Hughes (16:30):
Well, we minced we minced no words, but I we
didn't want people we didn'twant to hurt people, but if
people were hurt by their ownreactions to things, then we
didn't take responsibility forthat.
We wanted people to to actuallysee disability on the stage and
to to confront their ownmisconceptions and their own
(16:54):
biases and their own prejudicein a way that was safe for them
because they were in an audienceand they could laugh and they
could be shocked, but we weren'tpointing the finger at them and
saying,
Adam Griebel (17:09):
You're this.
Celia Hughes (17:10):
You're this.
Yeah.
We were like, here's us, andthis is what we think.
And if you can relate to thisin some way, maybe you should go
home and think about it.
Adam Griebel (17:19):
You can identify however you want to.
Celia Hughes (17:21):
Exactly.
Exactly, exactly.
And I think that's what whatmade the the Crip Ward Tango we
when we performed it as part ofthe VSA International Festival.
I remember people, there weresome people in the audience,
there were a lot of people withdisabilities in the audience,
and they just roared when w yousang the the lines, I am not
(17:43):
dead yet.
Because that was what that wasreally beginning, though that
was the rallying cry at thattime of people living in nursing
homes was I am not dead yet,and they just roared when we
started singing that.
I remember that brought me totears.
Elvis Lives by Meg Barnett,Maggie Joe Child.
(18:08):
Last year I flew on a plane forthe first time since my knee
replacement surgery.
It was just a few months after9-11, and I flew into a cold,
gray, paranoid Logan Airport,the airport that launched United
Flight 175 and American Flight11.
My flight also happened to beon the same day that a lunatic
tried to set off explosives inhis tennis shoes, and the plane
(18:31):
made an emergency landing atLogan.
I would have to be in awheelchair because I can't walk
that far, which meant likeBlanche Dubois, relying on the
kindness of strangers.
Strangers wearing dark blueAmerican Airlines blazers and
stony faces.
I kept telling everybody that Ineeded an extra wide
(18:51):
wheelchair.
Apparently Logan couldn't findsuch a thing.
So I was crammed into what Ithink of as the California
Surfer Girl model.
My luck turned when a tallyoung man with a full beard
stepped forward from the clutterof the blazers to be my
official escort.
Enter Ahmad.
(19:13):
Ahmad was from Saudi Arabia,from a city that was home to two
of the hijackers.
His looks, his accent, hisabsolute being made all of the
passengers in the airport freezeup around him.
He was sick of it.
And there I was, a hugecrippled dike.
If we were dumped out of a carinto the town square of an
(19:36):
average small white bird, Idon't know which one of us would
get stoned to death first.
We bonded instantly.
Turns out in his off hours,Ahmed entertains as an Elvis
impersonator.
I don't know how he gets aroundthe obstacle of his beard, but
he really has the dialogue down.
My little brother Bill was alsoan Elvis impersonator, so Ahmed
(19:59):
finds In me the perfect foil.
I feed him a line like MeleKalikimaka and he starts singing
I'll be a boo Christmas withoutyou.
I ask him which part of Bostonhe lives in and he breaks into
Since my baby left me I found anew place to dwell.
(20:22):
It's down at the end of LonelyStreet in Heartbreak Hotel.
Ahmed as Elvis is charming andclearly disconcerting to his
fellow American Airlinesemployees.
He doesn't seem to give a rat'sass.
He keeps trying to find waysfor me to get through the long
lines and bottlenecks faster.
(20:42):
Even though the wheelchair I'min is clearly their property, I
have to get up and walk throughthe checkpoints while they
remove this chair and replace itwith another.
Looking around at the humorlessmen in camouflage holding
assault rifles, I tried toimagine what I could pull off in
a wheelchair that would makeanything as deadly as those
(21:03):
automatic weapons.
I'm not a Crip MacGyver.
They stopped people randomlyand asked them to remove their
shoes for inspection.
I didn't know about the sneakerbomber yet, so this strikes me
and Ahmad as especiallyhilarious.
I can get my shoes off bymyself, but not back on.
If they pick me, I figure Ahmadcan use the occasion to kneel
(21:27):
before me and do the proposalscene from Viva Las Vegas.
My Latino friend Danny, whouses a wheelchair and had to fly
somewhere this holiday season.
When they searched his shoes,he said he felt honored that he
could still be perceived as apossible terrorist, even though
he was an obvious cripple.
(21:48):
Then he added it was probablythe spic factor that pushed him
over the edge from pity intomenace.
I tell the guys running themetal detector that my left knee
is titanium and that itabsolutely will set off the
alarm.
Even so, when I emerge on theother side, every blue blazer in
the vicinity is standing aroundme.
(22:09):
Ahmed waves at me over theshoulder of one official.
I empty all of my pockets, butI'm still setting off red
rockets of alarms.
Logan is running short on thelittle wands they use to wave
over people's bodies.
I have to be patted down by asecurity expert.
Now here's the thing.
I'm a lesbian Chandler Bing.
I make jokes when I am nervous.
(22:31):
So I had some tension to letoff.
I managed to keep it togetheruntil the skinny, white,
straight girl security expertreaches a certain region that my
mother refers to asMunchkinland.
As in Did you wash good inMunchkinland?
Which made watching the Wizardof Oz a truly bizarre experience
(22:52):
as a child.
But I digress.
When her pale, well manicuredhands began searching
Munchkinland for box cutters orplastic explosives, I could not
help myself.
I said with complete tupelocharm, thank you.
Thank you very much.
(23:16):
My name is Adam. Adam Griebel. Iam an actor with Art Spark
Texas.
And regretfully we lost Ms BoyeNagle earlier this year.
I recall my association withher whenever I would come to the
office here in Art Spark.
(23:37):
She was here oftentimes on theon the patios having a
cigarette.
And we did a play calledWaiting for the Bus by Mike Mike
Burns.
James Burnside.
Adam Griebel (23:53):
James Burnside, pardon me.
Burns Burnside similar.
And we worked together on thata good deal.
She was very in integral ingetting the actors together.
And what was she's productionmanager?
Celia Hughes (24:14):
She was basically what you would call the company
manager.
She took care of all of theactors' needs and accessibility.
Adam Griebel (24:22):
And I had I had a part in the play.
A little one.
Okay, I was Dana the lead.
Very exciting, very excitingindeed.
I haven't had an experiencelike the one I was allowed to
participate in ever.
And it was exciting.
(24:42):
Ms Boye.
She was DortheaDix. One of the members of the script.
And I worked with her.
And I loved it.
I loved every minute of it thatshe was there as well.
Was bonus.
But just me being in the playwas great.
(25:05):
And working with MsBoye was anadded bonus.
Celia Hughes (25:11):
So the next person that we want to talk about, uh
who we that that I miss a lot,uh is Mike Burns.
Adam Griebel (25:19):
Toast!
Celia Hughes (25:22):
So what do you remember about Mike Burns?
Adam Griebel (25:25):
I remember he drove and I was I I was pretty
envious of that.
Celia Hughes (25:30):
Did you not drive?
Adam Griebel (25:32):
I I I I I did, but I think I drove and I didn't
drive and I drove and I didn'tdrive.
I shouldn't have been driving.
Celia Hughes (25:41):
You're not driving now, we'll say to the great the
Well, you know, you had anumber of accidents.
Uh Mike never I don't thinkMike never had an accident after
his terrific accident that hehad that gave him his uh his
traumatic brain injury.
Yeah.
So what do you remember aboutToast?
Adam Griebel (26:00):
I remember he was on airflight, an airplane, and I
don't know if it was becausehis speech was hard to
understand, but he couldn't gethis order across to the
stewardess for lack of a betterword.
And finally they were trying tofigure out what he wanted, and
(26:21):
he all ran into them toast.
He wanted toast.
Celia Hughes (26:26):
Yeah, someone from the back of the plane shouted
out, toast, he wants toast.
Because he was trying to saytoast.
Yeah, that was at right afterhis traumatic brain injury when
he was finally released from thehospital and he was flying to
be with his father, I think, whowas uh alive at the time.
But yeah, Mike, you you talkedabout Mike driving.
(26:48):
He had a truck.
And you know, and so the thethe worst thing about being a
person that owns a truck is thatall of your friends who don't
own trucks always ask you forfavors.
And I my favor I had twofavorite uh Mike Burns stories.
(27:08):
One was I I wanted to get acouch, so I went to this place
called Four Hands Home, which Ithink is still around, but it it
got used furniture and it got alot of furniture from uh
developers who were buyingfurniture for demonstration
homes and things like that inoffices.
And so it would get newfurniture and it would get not
(27:30):
not so new furniture.
So there was a couch and itonly had it was part of a
sectional, so it only had an armon one side of the couch and
not on the other side of thecouch.
So I decided that that was thecouch I was gonna have.
So I could it was the onlycouch I could afford.
And um, so I called up Mike andI asked him if he'd come come
(27:51):
and help me bring the couch tomy house.
So ever, ever the gentleman,and always, you know, he was de
he was the mild-mannered mopboy.
Adam Griebel (28:02):
Yeah.
Celia Hughes (28:02):
And um he shows up and we load this couch into his
truck and and
Adam Griebel (28:08):
Wasn't a big truck.
Celia Hughes (28:09):
It wasn't a big truck, it was just a little
Ford, I think, and it was but alittle one.
So all the way home I kepttelling him that the cushions
were gonna fly out of the backof the truck.
I don't understand how truckswork.
I don't understand how peoplejust throw things into the back
of their truck and they don'tfly out.
I don't understand that.
But so all the way home I waslike, the cushions are gonna fly
(28:30):
out.
And he's like, the cushions arenot gonna fly out.
So we get to the house and weget the couch in, and I look at
it, and I'm like, Mike, one ofthe arms is missing, and he's
looking at it, and I'm like, ohmy god, Mike, it must have flown
out of the bed.
(28:51):
And for a moment there's amoment there, he was aghast
because he thought that the armhad flown off the back.
Oh, I loved him so much.
He was so and then he then hewouldn't forgive me for a long
time after that.
(29:11):
But uh yeah, Mike was a he wasa great guy.
He was a really, really greatguy.
We we don't know where Mike is.
Mike, if you're out therelistening to us, please get in
touch with us.
We would love to hear from youagain.
Uh, we lost touch with himduring COVID.
So we're sending out goodthoughts for you, Mike.
But yeah, he was uh he was inone of the with you guys, he was
(29:35):
one of the uh folks in thecompany that had uh traumatic
brain injury.
And what I learned abouttraumatic brain injury is that
there no two people withtraumatic brain injury are the
same.
Adam Griebel (29:47):
So similar similar to individuals without.
Celia Hughes (29:51):
Right.
Adam Griebel (29:51):
Nobody's the same.
Celia Hughes (29:52):
Nobody's the same, yeah.
And it depends on what part ofthe
Adam Griebel (29:55):
I mean there are characteristics that are
similar.
Celia Hughes (29:58):
Well, yeah, there are characteristics.
Uh like sometimes speech.
Adam Griebel (30:02):
Impulse.
Celia Hughes (30:02):
Yeah, impulse control.
Yeah, exactly.
Different things.
Adam Griebel (30:06):
Taking all your clothes off and around naked in
in the back.
Celia Hughes (30:09):
Well, you haven't done that in a while, okay?
But yeah, so did you and Mikeum develop some any kind of a of
a bond?
Adam Griebel (30:20):
I don't recall.
I was busy bonding with Laura.
Celia Hughes (30:24):
I know, because you were our first uh you were
our first uh marriage.
We had several marriages.
Yeah, but you guys knew eachother before, but you didn't
date or anything, right?
Yeah.
Adam Griebel (30:36):
No, I uh I mean we were in high school together
and I don't know if I
Celia Hughes (30:42):
probably didn't even pay attention to her.
Adam Griebel (30:43):
Little short arms.
I don't know if I can hang withthat back then.
Celia Hughes (30:48):
Yeah, you were you were a you were a young stud,
right?
You were
Adam Griebel (30:51):
I was a young stoner.
Celia Hughes (30:53):
You were a b yeah, yeah, you were Mr.
Bongmaster.
Yeah, well we have yeah, andthat you're yours and uh Laura's
episode is gonna be coming up,so so stay tuned for for Laura
and Adam's.
Adam Griebel (31:05):
Now if you can get her.
Celia Hughes (31:08):
Oh, you we you recorded with with Kurt.
Adam Griebel (31:11):
Oh, so it's been done.
Yeah.
Celia Hughes (31:14):
Yeah, see, this is the thing of brain injury.
Adam doesn't remember that herecorded.
Adam Griebel (31:21):
I resemble that remark.
Celia Hughes (31:23):
He doesn't remember how he got here an hour
ago.
Adam Griebel (31:26):
Is it like some idea?
Celia Hughes (31:31):
He uh well, what do you remember about the way
Mike dressed?
Adam Griebel (31:34):
I don't.
Was it like Mr.
Green jeans?
Celia Hughes (31:38):
No, he had he always wore uh black and white
check pajama pants.
Adam Griebel (31:42):
Oh yeah, I remember that exactly.
Celia Hughes (31:44):
And uh and a bright yellow Hawaiian shirt.
And he wore those until theyfell off.
They literally fell apart.
He would wash it every now and then.
I would hope.
I would hope he washed them.
Yes, I'm sure he did.
I'm sure he did.
And he lived in his littletrailer and he um
Adam Griebel (32:03):
Where was his trailer?
Celia Hughes (32:04):
He was out in a in a uh uh one of the parks out
near the airport.
It uh has uh sadly closed andbecome some sort of a
development.
Adam Griebel (32:14):
Yeah.
My dad lived ou t right acrossfrom the airport.
Celia Hughes (32:17):
Yeah.
I think the favorite thing thatMike ever did was when we
decided that we were gonnachange the entrance to his
mild-mannered mop boy, and wehad him come out like he was
doing a strip tease.
Do you remember that?
Adam Griebel (32:36):
No, no.
He would take off his
No, he would come out and hewould, I think he he would just
come out and do uh well he hadhe would have his pants on, but
he wouldn't have his shirt on.
Yeah, I remember.
And then he would wiggle hiships and dance around the stage,
and uh, and then he would uhand then he would begin, I'm
just a mild mannered mop boy.
(32:57):
And it you know, his backgrounduh to that, he uh he worked for
a couple of differentorganizations uh as a janitor.
And he actually, when he wehired him and he started working
for us years ago, and he wouldcome in and vacuum.
So he was he uh then waselevated to vacuum man.
(33:18):
So and that's what that was hisidentity, and uh he was proud
of it, and he really maintainedhis vacuum very well.
I I did some janitorial work and I wonder if
that is stereotypical of braininjured people.
Celia Hughes (33:35):
Well, it could be, it could be.
Adam Griebel (33:37):
I sucked.
Celia Hughes (33:38):
Well, you you couldn't keep the plants alive
if I recall.
Adam Griebel (33:42):
Nah, I I remember I was uh I was a janitor from Ru
Maya when they were down onForth and Colorado.
Celia Hughes (33:50):
Okay.
Adam Griebel (33:50):
And we w we had a freezer in the back and we would
make these.
Oh, we had a big tub of ofAmy's chocolate chip cookie
dough ice cream or somethingwith a little specs of cookies
or whatever it was.
And um it was back there.
And I would would go back andtake a little bite, take an and
(34:15):
before I knew it the whole thingwas gone.
Celia Hughes (34:18):
Oh dear.
Adam Griebel (34:19):
And then my boss got got got mad.
Celia Hughes (34:24):
Well you so you didn't lose your job because you
weren't good at the mop.
You were
Because I ate all the ice cream
your your impulse control wasnot not not doing very well back
then.
Well, you know, the thing aboutabout Mike is that he was
loyal, loyal, loyal to actuallives.
But always about a week beforethe show, he would want to quit.
(34:49):
He would get upset withsomebody or he would you know
and I
Sandy Massey.
It was well, there was that, but there was also
just he would just get upset andit was nerves.
It was always nerves, you know.
And then we would uh we wouldconvince him that he that he was
uh important to the show.
Adam Griebel (35:07):
Worthy
Celia Hughes (35:08):
and he would show up Mike Burns Mop Boy Life is a
real roller coaster.
Some days I'm an artist andperformer, other days I'm the
mop boy.
As a young man, I had a seriouscar accident.
I was in a coma for a month anda half.
Upon awakening, I could donothing.
(35:30):
Thirty years later, I walk, Italk, I paint, I mop.
I graduated from UT with a BAin psychology.
I worked there for 17 years andhad to retire because of brain
complications.
I took up painting andperforming.
June of 2004, I went with theactual lives to Washington, DC
(35:52):
to perform at the VSA ArtsInternational Festival.
We really rocked that crowd.
When I got back home, I wentback to my job as a mop boy.
In July of 2004, I went withImagine Arts to New Orleans for
an art show.
I sold three of my paintingsright off the bat.
We had a great time on BourbonStreet, dancing to the music and
(36:14):
the gumbo.
When I got back home, I resumedthe mild mannered mop boy.
On february ninth, two thousandfive, my birthday, I was
performing in front of eighthundred people, cooking on all
cylinders.
A fifty-four year old man braininjured, wearing these same
clothes, dancing to stripteasemusic, just bringing down the
(36:38):
house.
The next day, I'm cleaningbathrooms, emptying trash, and
of course, mopping.
Back at the shack, a self-helpadvocacy center.
In October of 2005, the city ofAustin chose one of my
paintings to publish in atourism book.
Now there's 10,000 copies of myman with a pipe.
(37:00):
I'm kind of famous, but I'mstill a mop boy.
Life's a real roller coaster.
And I'm on it.
And God says, hang on.
So that was that was Mike, youknow?
Adam Griebel (37:14):
I remember I remember that that that panting.
Celia Hughes (37:17):
Yeah.
Can you describe the painting?
Do you remember what it lookslike?
Adam Griebel (37:21):
There's orange.
Orange pants, orange shirt.
I don't recall that.
Celia Hughes (37:25):
Okay.
Well, I remember blue.
I remember it being a bluesailor with a with a pipe, a
white pipe.
Adam Griebel (37:32):
He did a couple of different pantings, I remember.
Celia Hughes (37:36):
Yeah, he did a yeah.
Well, I I have two of them athome.
One he gave me, one I got forhim in his classic black and
white check pants and yellowHawaiian shirt, riding on an old
broken down mule, and the signsays retirement this way.
So I've got that.
(38:00):
And then I've got one of himsitting a self-portrait of him
sitting outside this trailer uhin his classic clothes, uh,
surrounded by uh potted plants,flowers.
And I I that's a nice picture Iremember of him.
He was he was a good additionto the to the company.
Yeah.
So yeah, so we've been talking this episode about
(38:22):
both Meg Barnett and Mike Burnsand their important addition to
the era, the epic decade ofactual lives.
Yeah, and how how I'm not sosure.
I mean, I think we could do anactual lives again, um, but it
would it would be different.
Adam Griebel (38:44):
I'm not talking about I I'm just talking about
the script.
And yeah, disabled actors wouldwould be uh especially with
this organization, would beintegral.
Celia Hughes (38:56):
Right.
Well, you I mean everyone onthe stage had a disability for
actual lives.
And if they didn't, they were acaregiver.
I mean, I when I was goingthrough reading the scripts,
trying to find the stories wewanted to highlight, I actually
found a couple of scripts that Iwas in.
Because I remember our rule isyou couldn't be in the room.
(39:17):
If you were in the room, youhad to participate.
Nobody was an observer.
And and I like that rule, and Itry to keep that rule uh going
when there are other thingsbecause people with disabilities
are always being observed.
There was always somebodybehind the mirror watching what
they were doing, or on the otherside of the glass watching what
(39:37):
they were doing, or observinghow you were walking, or
observing how you're talking.
And and that was part of thethe the ethos of actual lives is
you want to look at us?
Okay, here we are.
We're on stage, look at us allyou want.
But you all have yes, you haveto hear what we have to say
about it too.
Adam Griebel (39:56):
We're gonna say it loudly.
Celia Hughes (39:58):
Yep, absolutely.
Well, thanks, Adam.
Thanks for uh talking with meabout Meg and and Mike.
Adam Griebel (40:05):
Thank you for allowing me to.
John Beer (40:10):
We here at the True Tales podcast suffered a massive
blow when we lost MsBoye Nagelafter a sudden illness at the
end of 2024.
As our den mother, cheerleader,taskmaster, coraller of cats,
Buddha, mentor, and most of all,friend, she somehow shepherded
us through Art Spark Texas'Speaking Advocates program,
(40:31):
teaching us to write and tellour stories in the most
effective, forceful way, andguided us again through the
creation of this podcast so thatwe could amplify our stories
even more in this blossomingmedium.
On her own, she was a powerful,prolific poet with a strong and
awful, playful voice, and aproud longtime advocate for
LGBTQ+ rights, a woman ofconviction.
(40:55):
In other words, she wasqualified all day long to teach
speaking advocacy and wear themany hats she did to bring this
podcast into being.
She was our executive producer,but was involved in all
aspects.
Episode producer, writer,talent, editor, and promoter.
MsB oye was also an actress andwould insist the show must go
(41:17):
on.
And after a hiatus, we're doingjust that.
Ever since we've started in,most of our efforts have been
spent figuring out what MsBoyedid and how to recreate it.
Above all, we want to continueher level of passion for the
podcast, for getting thesestories out there to you.
This is how we'll open mindsand produce the change that we
(41:39):
want.
When we'd meet for speakingadvocates early afternoons on
Saturdays to help us clear ourminds before each session,
MsBoye would ring a bell.
I'm a quadriplegic, andsometimes my morning routines
run long, so that I didn't get achance to eat.
And to my ear, her bell soundedjust like the one from the Taco
(42:00):
Bell commercials.
While everyone else began deepbreathing, I'd have visions of
burritos dancing in my head.
Of course, now when I hear thatbell on my TV, I think of those
early afternoons I got to spendwith my friend, whom I missed
so much.
And how she made us feel.
We had stories worth tellingand shouting out loud.
(42:22):
And a Largel Fresco beanburrito with Diablo Sauz.
We got you, Ms Boye.
MsBoye (42:32):
Thank you for listening to the third season of True
Tales by Disability AdvocatesPodcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,oh, please share it with your
friends and talk about us onsocial media.
If you're feeling particularlyadventurous, consider leaving us
a review on Facebook or even onyour favorite podcast platform.
And of course, don't forget tofollow us on Facebook,
(42:53):
Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Goodbye, everybody, and have awonderful day.
Kamand Alaghehband (42:59):
All episodes of the True Tales by Disability
Advocates podcasts are free onApple Podcasts, Spotify, and
anywhere you get your podcasts
(43:28):
Program is funded in part by a grant from the Texas State Independent Living Council, The Administration for Community Living, and individuals like you.
To learn more about the speaking advocates program sign up for our newsletter at artsparktx.org That'sA R T S P A R K T X dot O R G.
Welcome to True Tales by Disability Advocates
Podcast.
Authentic voices of peoplethriving with disabilities,
where individuals use the art ofstorytelling to change the
world.
John Beer (00:22):
The True Tales by Disability Advocates Podcast is
produced by Art Spark Texas'Speaking Advocates Program.
The free virtual training isopen to people of all
disabilities, no matter whereyou live.
Kamand Alaghehband (00:35):
Keep listening to hear how life's
challenges can spark a desire tospeak out and advocate for
yourself and others.
MsBoye (00:50):
Hello, you're listening to the True Tales by Disability
Advocates Podcast.
Changing the world one story ata time.
This is the show whereadvocates harness the power of
storytelling to build communitywith their peers and develop
empathy in others.
Hello everyone.
I'm MsBoye.
Jennifer McKinney (01:09):
I'm Jennifer McKinney.
Adam Griebel (01:11):
I'm Adam Griebel.
MsBoye (01:12):
And we are your hosts for season three.
Jennifer McKinney (01:22):
Hi, my name is Jennifer McKinney and I'm a
co-host of Season 3.
While all jobs are important ina podcast team, it takes a
unique and extremely hardworkingperson to keep the team going
and on the right track.
Last year, we lost that vitalpodcast member.
(01:43):
Her name was MsBoye.
She was more than a self-taughtpodcaster and editor.
MsBoye wore many hats atArt Spark Texas and in the
Austin community.
She was a thespian, poet, had agreat British sense of humor,
and was an advocate for all.
(02:04):
In 2024, she asked me to jointhe podcast production team as
co-host.
I feel fortunate to have beenable to work with her on the
True Tales by DisabilityAdvocates podcast.
In summary, MsBoye is gone, butnot forgotten.
In her honor, we are going tocontinue the podcast episodes
(02:28):
with the same spirit anddevotion as Ms Boye might say.
The show must go on.
Celia Hughes (02:35):
So Adam.
So Meg Barnett was one of shewasn't the original in the
original company, but she cameon pretty early on.
This story was
Adam Griebel (02:43):
I remember her actually in the original show.
Celia Hughes (02:45):
I don't think she was in the very first show, but
because this the Elvis Lives wasin uh 2002, and our first show
was in in 2000.
So
Adam Griebel (02:55):
Didn't we start didn't we start in '98?
Celia Hughes (02:59):
No, we started in 2000.
So talk to talk to us aboutyour memories of Meg.
Adam Griebel (03:04):
I remember her.
I don't know if this is becauseshe was positioned this way, or
if this is just a role shespent into.
She put herself in a leadershiprole in the actual lives cast,
I felt.
Celia Hughes (03:17):
And what did that look like when you say she's in
a leadership role?
Adam Griebel (03:20):
Well, when when we did Crip Ward Tango, that was
her piece.
Celia Hughes (03:24):
Right.
And she wrote a couple of otherpieces, didn't she?
Do the Happy Haven when peoplewere welcomed to the nursing
home?
Adam Griebel (03:32):
Yeah, I believe so.
Celia Hughes (03:33):
Okay.
Adam Griebel (03:34):
She didn't like 'cause she was involved in
the poetry slams and all thatgreat stuff back then.
Yeah.
So she had the skills.
Celia Hughes (03:44):
Yeah, she was uh can you describe Meg a little
bit, her personality?
Adam Griebel (03:48):
Well, I don't know that being lesbian can
necessarily augment yourpersonality, but maybe it gave
her a persona.
She was she was funky to saythe least.
Celia Hughes (04:00):
Yeah, and she was she was a rather large woman.
Adam Griebel (04:02):
Okay, she was huge.
Celia Hughes (04:04):
But she she carried that off really, really
well.
I don't remember, I think fromthe moment she started working
with us though, she was notwalking very well.
Adam Griebel (04:13):
No.
And I remember she eventuallygot that little Volkswagen.
It was a a scooter and she usedbasically a Volkswagen, for
lack of a better word.
Celia Hughes (04:28):
Yeah, she was she was uh she was quite a quite a
character.
So do you remember this ElvisLives piece?
Adam Griebel (04:35):
Not so much.
Celia Hughes (04:36):
Um do you remember any pieces of hers?
Adam Griebel (04:39):
I remember Crip Ward Tango.
Celia Hughes (04:41):
Yeah, and what was it about Crip Ward Tango?
Adam Griebel (04:44):
It was patterned after um Chicago.
Celia Hughes (04:48):
Yeah, it was the the cell block tango.
Adam Griebel (04:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can't watch that film these days without
immediately remembering back toI'm trying to remember my piece.
But I had a piece in there.
Celia Hughes (05:02):
Yeah, you were, you know, when you're when you
can't think, no, if when youcan't talk, people think well,
we're gonna do it.
We're gonna do it the piece.
Well, what do you rememberabout Crip Ward Tango?
Where did we perform it?
Adam Griebel (05:16):
In the Kennedy Center.
Celia Hughes (05:17):
Was it at the Kennedy Center?
Adam Griebel (05:19):
Uh eventually.
We had done it a couple oftimes.
Celia Hughes (05:22):
Yeah, but we didn't do it at the Kennedy
Center.
We did it at uh Avenue.
Adam Griebel (05:26):
K Street Theater.
Celia Hughes (05:27):
Yeah, K or H, one of the
Adam Griebel (05:29):
It was K Street Theater.
Celia Hughes (05:30):
One of the alphabets.
And uh yeah, and so TerryGalloway rehearsed you for that.
Adam Griebel (05:36):
Yes.
Celia Hughes (05:36):
Can you talk about that rehearsal?
Adam Griebel (05:38):
Wow.
Celia Hughes (05:41):
Well, that's all you can say is wow?
Adam Griebel (05:44):
Well, I got to work in direct association with
Terry Galloway.
Celia Hughes (05:50):
And what did she do?
How did she direct you?
Do you remember anything aboutthat?
You guys always look likeyou've come out of the war zone.
Adam Griebel (05:57):
Did she smoke?
No, she never smoked that Iknow of.
Maybe she smoked during thisrehearsal.
I have no idea.
Because working with her waslike working with Jerry Lewis.
Celia Hughes (06:08):
Well, yeah, well, I don't know if she'd appreciate
hearing that.
Adam Griebel (06:12):
Hopefully we won't play it for her.
Celia Hughes (06:14):
So why why Jerry why do you say that?
Adam Griebel (06:18):
Because I remember she would stick her hair with
that deputy do.
Celia Hughes (06:27):
And then she would but the the the she ran that
rehearsal like a drill sergeant,didn't she?
Adam Griebel (06:32):
Yeah, she was no screwing around.
Celia Hughes (06:34):
Yeah, she was she was if you were gonna perform at
the you know for as part of theit was the VSA International
Festival, you were gonna, youall were gonna be fabulous.
There was no doubt about that.
All right, well, we're gonnaread the Crip Ward Tango.
Crip Ward Tango, written by MegBarnett, uh Maggie Joe Child,
(06:55):
to the tune of Cell Block Tango.
So this piece had four uhensemble players.
We had Meg, Adam, TerrySteller, and Jeff Marsh.
They enter, Meg says, What'sup?
Frankenstein
(07:16):
Terry Steller, past life, Jeff Amnio.
What's up?
Adam Griebel (07:21):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:23):
Past life, amnio.
What's up?
Adam Griebel (07:28):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:30):
Past life, amnio, what's up?
Adam Griebel (07:32):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:34):
Past life, amnio, what's up?
Adam Griebel (07:36):
Frankenstein
Celia Hughes (07:37):
Past life, amnio.
Meg, you know how people alwaysask you, how are you?
How's it going?
What's up?
Sometimes it's just automatic.
But most people do care to someextent.
They keep track of yourmilestones.
And the unspoken expectation isthat if you are sick or
(08:00):
hurting, or god forbid,disabled, you're going to get
better soon.
They turn off if you aren'tbetter yet.
They make suggestions fortreatment, something somebody
can do.
So the next time they see you,your answer will be, I'm doing
better.
But what if that's never gonnabe true?
(08:23):
Are any of you ready to hearthat reply?
The chorus.
Adam Griebel (08:30):
I won't get better, I won't get better.
This is the best I'll ever be.
And when I'm older, yeah, whenI'm older, then it may be even
worse for me.
People assume that if you can'ttalk, then you can't think.
And that if you can't rememberthings fast, you must be stupid.
(08:55):
They talk to you like you'retwo years old.
And if you get frustrated, forGod's sake, don't show it.
Nothing scares people more thana dummy on the rampage.
Can you say, Frankenstein?
Celia Hughes (09:16):
chorus.
Adam Griebel (09:18):
I'm not the R-word.
I'm not the R-word, but that'san okay way to be.
Why don't you listen?
Shut up and listen, and findout what is the truth for me.
Celia Hughes (09:32):
Terry's Faith Healers.
Now there's a freak show.
We Cryps are supposed to beclose to God, or at least to
remind others of how God movesin mysterious ways.
In the new agers, they think ifyou can just identify and clear
out the blockages fromchildhood issues, or maybe it's
(09:54):
a past life thing, the cancerwill disintegrate.
Your vision will return.
They know somebody in Saucelitowho regrew a crooked spine.
Chorus.
Adam Griebel (10:07):
Mind over matter. Mind over matter.
The only problem's in yourhead.
Have you tried Jesus?
Think of his suffering.
Stop being hopeless.
Get out of bed.
Celia Hughes (10:20):
Jeff, but the biggest tragedy of all, the
worst thing that can happen to afamily is when a child is born
crippled, right?
Was it bad genes?
Was it bad choices?
Is it a lesson sent from God?
Why oh why would God let thishappen to
an innocent child?
What kind of life can he expectto have?
(10:41):
No wife, no children, that'sfor sure.
Some of their friends willwhisper, if they'd had
amniocentesis, maybe they couldhave stopped the pregnancy in
time.
What do you say to things likethat?
Adam Griebel (10:58):
I am not dead yet.
I am not dead yet.
My only obstacles are you.
I have a body.
I have a sex life.
It's time to alter your pointof view.
Celia Hughes (11:11):
What if I never heal?
Adam Griebel (11:13):
If you can't talk, you can't think.
Celia Hughes (11:16):
Have you tried Jesus?
What kind of life?
Adam Griebel (11:24):
It's time to alter your point of view.
Celia Hughes (11:31):
So these these pieces, Crip Ward Tango and
Elvis Lives, but moreimportantly, I think Crip Ward
Tango were written twenty-oneyears ago, twenty-two years ago,
quite a while ago.
How has language in thedisability community changed
over those since that time?
Adam Griebel (11:51):
You know, I know that people are still using a
bhorent language.
I mean, people that aren'tdirectly associated with the
disability movement, aren'tdisabled, don't have family
members that's disabled.
I see those people as beingoblivious to person-first
language for lack of a betterword.
Celia Hughes (12:14):
So you and I went through and when we were
recording the Crip Ward Tango,we um purposefully re replaced a
word in the song with that wereplaced it with, you know, I'm
not the R word.
Adam Griebel (12:29):
Sure.
Celia Hughes (12:29):
And so that's one thing that's happened in the
past two decades is an awarenessthat's been really brought to
the forefront by folks withintellectual disabilities about
the use of the R word and how itis such a slur.
Do you remember any kind ofconversation that we had back
(12:50):
when we were preparing Crip WardTango for performance?
Did we have any conversation atthat time?
Again, we're look we're goingback to two, you know, 2003
about the use of, you know, wewe use the word the R word, we
use the word Crip, we use theword cripple, we used all of
that.
What was the do you do youremember what the intention was
(13:11):
behind that of our using thosewords?
Adam Griebel (13:14):
I felt like we used it because we felt like we
were that pocket nation and wethen gave us license to use that
language.
Now I don't know if if whenputting it on we put a little
byline, okay, uh you can hearthis, but you can't say this.
Celia Hughes (13:32):
I don't think we did because back then, you know,
we're we're talking uh a fewdecades ago.
We were putting things on thestage that nobody put on the
stage.
Adam Griebel (13:42):
I love that.
Celia Hughes (13:43):
And we were trying to get people to we were trying
to shake people up a littlebit.
Adam Griebel (13:46):
Wake up, wake the fuck up.
Celia Hughes (13:49):
Remember what what's going on here.
Yeah, so I think you're exactlyright when you say that we
were, you know, at the forefrontof the movement, which is now
the folks with the in themovement there who have
reclaimed the fact that they'redisabled.
So you talk about person firstlanguage, and now in the 21st
(14:11):
century, we're talking aboutidentity first language.
Adam Griebel (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, and then
I didn't even think about that.
Celia Hughes (14:18):
And so what does identity first language mean to
you, Adam?
Adam Griebel (14:22):
That we as as individuals have the right to
identify ourselves whichever wwhichever way we see fit.
Celia Hughes (14:32):
And we can reclaim words that have been over the
generations come to be slurs andcome to be really negative
words, we can reclaim thosewords.
I use we, even though I'mspeaking about the larger
disability community, can claimthose words uh as their own and
(14:54):
try to repurpose and remove thethe stigma that has been
associated with those words.
But back in 2003, we werehaving those conversations about
what these words meant.
Adam Griebel (15:08):
It's time for people to get comfortable.
Celia Hughes (15:11):
I remember that we had a we had a long
conversation about that chorus.
I don't remember what weactually said, but I remember
there being discussion aboutthat one chorus.
Uh, you know, I'm not I'm notthe R word, but that's an okay
way to be.
Adam Griebel (15:26):
But we didn't we we we we didn't stammer, we just
said
Celia Hughes (15:30):
Yeah, we we were we were out there well we also
had the good cripple's oath, ifyou remember that, which we
opened every show with, which Iloved, for the same reason.
Because it was just in yourface.
It w you know?
Adam Griebel (15:45):
You know, I think that that were were we ever to
do this show again, I don'tknow.
Celia Hughes (15:52):
I don't think it would have the same impact if we
did it now, because people aremuch more uh aware of language.
Adam Griebel (15:59):
Mhmm especially in our circles.
Celia Hughes (16:02):
Yeah, yeah.
And but also young people oftoday they don't have a whole
lot of tolerance for languagethat can be construed as uh
demeaning or insulting or orhurtful.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think I think actual liveswas certainly certain.
Adam Griebel (16:23):
We We wanted to hurt people.
Celia Hughes (16:24):
Well, I don't think we wanted to hurt people.
Adam Griebel (16:26):
But we we didn't we we we we minced no words.
Celia Hughes (16:30):
Well, we minced we minced no words, but I we
didn't want people we didn'twant to hurt people, but if
people were hurt by their ownreactions to things, then we
didn't take responsibility forthat.
We wanted people to to actuallysee disability on the stage and
to to confront their ownmisconceptions and their own
(16:54):
biases and their own prejudicein a way that was safe for them
because they were in an audienceand they could laugh and they
could be shocked, but we weren'tpointing the finger at them and
saying,
Adam Griebel (17:09):
You're this.
Celia Hughes (17:10):
You're this.
Yeah.
We were like, here's us, andthis is what we think.
And if you can relate to thisin some way, maybe you should go
home and think about it.
Adam Griebel (17:19):
You can identify however you want to.
Celia Hughes (17:21):
Exactly.
Exactly, exactly.
And I think that's what whatmade the the Crip Ward Tango we
when we performed it as part ofthe VSA International Festival.
I remember people, there weresome people in the audience,
there were a lot of people withdisabilities in the audience,
and they just roared when w yousang the the lines, I am not
(17:43):
dead yet.
Because that was what that wasreally beginning, though that
was the rallying cry at thattime of people living in nursing
homes was I am not dead yet,and they just roared when we
started singing that.
I remember that brought me totears.
Elvis Lives by Meg Barnett,Maggie Joe Child.
(18:08):
Last year I flew on a plane forthe first time since my knee
replacement surgery.
It was just a few months after9-11, and I flew into a cold,
gray, paranoid Logan Airport,the airport that launched United
Flight 175 and American Flight11.
My flight also happened to beon the same day that a lunatic
tried to set off explosives inhis tennis shoes, and the plane
(18:31):
made an emergency landing atLogan.
I would have to be in awheelchair because I can't walk
that far, which meant likeBlanche Dubois, relying on the
kindness of strangers.
Strangers wearing dark blueAmerican Airlines blazers and
stony faces.
I kept telling everybody that Ineeded an extra wide
(18:51):
wheelchair.
Apparently Logan couldn't findsuch a thing.
So I was crammed into what Ithink of as the California
Surfer Girl model.
My luck turned when a tallyoung man with a full beard
stepped forward from the clutterof the blazers to be my
official escort.
Enter Ahmad.
(19:13):
Ahmad was from Saudi Arabia,from a city that was home to two
of the hijackers.
His looks, his accent, hisabsolute being made all of the
passengers in the airport freezeup around him.
He was sick of it.
And there I was, a hugecrippled dike.
If we were dumped out of a carinto the town square of an
(19:36):
average small white bird, Idon't know which one of us would
get stoned to death first.
We bonded instantly.
Turns out in his off hours,Ahmed entertains as an Elvis
impersonator.
I don't know how he gets aroundthe obstacle of his beard, but
he really has the dialogue down.
My little brother Bill was alsoan Elvis impersonator, so Ahmed
(19:59):
finds In me the perfect foil.
I feed him a line like MeleKalikimaka and he starts singing
I'll be a boo Christmas withoutyou.
I ask him which part of Bostonhe lives in and he breaks into
Since my baby left me I found anew place to dwell.
(20:22):
It's down at the end of LonelyStreet in Heartbreak Hotel.
Ahmed as Elvis is charming andclearly disconcerting to his
fellow American Airlinesemployees.
He doesn't seem to give a rat'sass.
He keeps trying to find waysfor me to get through the long
lines and bottlenecks faster.
(20:42):
Even though the wheelchair I'min is clearly their property, I
have to get up and walk throughthe checkpoints while they
remove this chair and replace itwith another.
Looking around at the humorlessmen in camouflage holding
assault rifles, I tried toimagine what I could pull off in
a wheelchair that would makeanything as deadly as those
(21:03):
automatic weapons.
I'm not a Crip MacGyver.
They stopped people randomlyand asked them to remove their
shoes for inspection.
I didn't know about the sneakerbomber yet, so this strikes me
and Ahmad as especiallyhilarious.
I can get my shoes off bymyself, but not back on.
If they pick me, I figure Ahmadcan use the occasion to kneel
(21:27):
before me and do the proposalscene from Viva Las Vegas.
My Latino friend Danny, whouses a wheelchair and had to fly
somewhere this holiday season.
When they searched his shoes,he said he felt honored that he
could still be perceived as apossible terrorist, even though
he was an obvious cripple.
(21:48):
Then he added it was probablythe spic factor that pushed him
over the edge from pity intomenace.
I tell the guys running themetal detector that my left knee
is titanium and that itabsolutely will set off the
alarm.
Even so, when I emerge on theother side, every blue blazer in
the vicinity is standing aroundme.
(22:09):
Ahmed waves at me over theshoulder of one official.
I empty all of my pockets, butI'm still setting off red
rockets of alarms.
Logan is running short on thelittle wands they use to wave
over people's bodies.
I have to be patted down by asecurity expert.
Now here's the thing.
I'm a lesbian Chandler Bing.
I make jokes when I am nervous.
(22:31):
So I had some tension to letoff.
I managed to keep it togetheruntil the skinny, white,
straight girl security expertreaches a certain region that my
mother refers to asMunchkinland.
As in Did you wash good inMunchkinland?
Which made watching the Wizardof Oz a truly bizarre experience
(22:52):
as a child.
But I digress.
When her pale, well manicuredhands began searching
Munchkinland for box cutters orplastic explosives, I could not
help myself.
I said with complete tupelocharm, thank you.
Thank you very much.
(23:16):
My name is Adam. Adam Griebel. Iam an actor with Art Spark
Texas.
And regretfully we lost Ms BoyeNagle earlier this year.
I recall my association withher whenever I would come to the
office here in Art Spark.
(23:37):
She was here oftentimes on theon the patios having a
cigarette.
And we did a play calledWaiting for the Bus by Mike Mike
Burns.
James Burnside.
Adam Griebel (23:53):
James Burnside, pardon me.
Burns Burnside similar.
And we worked together on thata good deal.
She was very in integral ingetting the actors together.
And what was she's productionmanager?
Celia Hughes (24:14):
She was basically what you would call the company
manager.
She took care of all of theactors' needs and accessibility.
Adam Griebel (24:22):
And I had I had a part in the play.
A little one.
Okay, I was Dana the lead.
Very exciting, very excitingindeed.
I haven't had an experiencelike the one I was allowed to
participate in ever.
And it was exciting.
(24:42):
Ms Boye.
She was DortheaDix. One of the members of the script.
And I worked with her.
And I loved it.
I loved every minute of it thatshe was there as well.
Was bonus.
But just me being in the playwas great.
(25:05):
And working with MsBoye was anadded bonus.
Celia Hughes (25:11):
So the next person that we want to talk about, uh
who we that that I miss a lot,uh is Mike Burns.
Adam Griebel (25:19):
Toast!
Celia Hughes (25:22):
So what do you remember about Mike Burns?
Adam Griebel (25:25):
I remember he drove and I was I I was pretty
envious of that.
Celia Hughes (25:30):
Did you not drive?
Adam Griebel (25:32):
I I I I I did, but I think I drove and I didn't
drive and I drove and I didn'tdrive.
I shouldn't have been driving.
Celia Hughes (25:41):
You're not driving now, we'll say to the great the
Well, you know, you had anumber of accidents.
Uh Mike never I don't thinkMike never had an accident after
his terrific accident that hehad that gave him his uh his
traumatic brain injury.
Yeah.
So what do you remember aboutToast?
Adam Griebel (26:00):
I remember he was on airflight, an airplane, and I
don't know if it was becausehis speech was hard to
understand, but he couldn't gethis order across to the
stewardess for lack of a betterword.
And finally they were trying tofigure out what he wanted, and
(26:21):
he all ran into them toast.
He wanted toast.
Celia Hughes (26:26):
Yeah, someone from the back of the plane shouted
out, toast, he wants toast.
Because he was trying to saytoast.
Yeah, that was at right afterhis traumatic brain injury when
he was finally released from thehospital and he was flying to
be with his father, I think, whowas uh alive at the time.
But yeah, Mike, you you talkedabout Mike driving.
(26:48):
He had a truck.
And you know, and so the thethe worst thing about being a
person that owns a truck is thatall of your friends who don't
own trucks always ask you forfavors.
And I my favor I had twofavorite uh Mike Burns stories.
(27:08):
One was I I wanted to get acouch, so I went to this place
called Four Hands Home, which Ithink is still around, but it it
got used furniture and it got alot of furniture from uh
developers who were buyingfurniture for demonstration
homes and things like that inoffices.
And so it would get newfurniture and it would get not
(27:30):
not so new furniture.
So there was a couch and itonly had it was part of a
sectional, so it only had an armon one side of the couch and
not on the other side of thecouch.
So I decided that that was thecouch I was gonna have.
So I could it was the onlycouch I could afford.
And um, so I called up Mike andI asked him if he'd come come
(27:51):
and help me bring the couch tomy house.
So ever, ever the gentleman,and always, you know, he was de
he was the mild-mannered mopboy.
Adam Griebel (28:02):
Yeah.
Celia Hughes (28:02):
And um he shows up and we load this couch into his
truck and and
Adam Griebel (28:08):
Wasn't a big truck.
Celia Hughes (28:09):
It wasn't a big truck, it was just a little
Ford, I think, and it was but alittle one.
So all the way home I kepttelling him that the cushions
were gonna fly out of the backof the truck.
I don't understand how truckswork.
I don't understand how peoplejust throw things into the back
of their truck and they don'tfly out.
I don't understand that.
But so all the way home I waslike, the cushions are gonna fly
(28:30):
out.
And he's like, the cushions arenot gonna fly out.
So we get to the house and weget the couch in, and I look at
it, and I'm like, Mike, one ofthe arms is missing, and he's
looking at it, and I'm like, ohmy god, Mike, it must have flown
out of the bed.
(28:51):
And for a moment there's amoment there, he was aghast
because he thought that the armhad flown off the back.
Oh, I loved him so much.
He was so and then he then hewouldn't forgive me for a long
time after that.
(29:11):
But uh yeah, Mike was a he wasa great guy.
He was a really, really greatguy.
We we don't know where Mike is.
Mike, if you're out therelistening to us, please get in
touch with us.
We would love to hear from youagain.
Uh, we lost touch with himduring COVID.
So we're sending out goodthoughts for you, Mike.
But yeah, he was uh he was inone of the with you guys, he was
(29:35):
one of the uh folks in thecompany that had uh traumatic
brain injury.
And what I learned abouttraumatic brain injury is that
there no two people withtraumatic brain injury are the
same.
Adam Griebel (29:47):
So similar similar to individuals without.
Celia Hughes (29:51):
Right.
Adam Griebel (29:51):
Nobody's the same.
Celia Hughes (29:52):
Nobody's the same, yeah.
And it depends on what part ofthe
Adam Griebel (29:55):
I mean there are characteristics that are
similar.
Celia Hughes (29:58):
Well, yeah, there are characteristics.
Uh like sometimes speech.
Adam Griebel (30:02):
Impulse.
Celia Hughes (30:02):
Yeah, impulse control.
Yeah, exactly.
Different things.
Adam Griebel (30:06):
Taking all your clothes off and around naked in
in the back.
Celia Hughes (30:09):
Well, you haven't done that in a while, okay?
But yeah, so did you and Mikeum develop some any kind of a of
a bond?
Adam Griebel (30:20):
I don't recall.
I was busy bonding with Laura.
Celia Hughes (30:24):
I know, because you were our first uh you were
our first uh marriage.
We had several marriages.
Yeah, but you guys knew eachother before, but you didn't
date or anything, right?
Yeah.
Adam Griebel (30:36):
No, I uh I mean we were in high school together
and I don't know if I
Celia Hughes (30:42):
probably didn't even pay attention to her.
Adam Griebel (30:43):
Little short arms.
I don't know if I can hang withthat back then.
Celia Hughes (30:48):
Yeah, you were you were a you were a young stud,
right?
You were
Adam Griebel (30:51):
I was a young stoner.
Celia Hughes (30:53):
You were a b yeah, yeah, you were Mr.
Bongmaster.
Yeah, well we have yeah, andthat you're yours and uh Laura's
episode is gonna be coming up,so so stay tuned for for Laura
and Adam's.
Adam Griebel (31:05):
Now if you can get her.
Celia Hughes (31:08):
Oh, you we you recorded with with Kurt.
Adam Griebel (31:11):
Oh, so it's been done.
Yeah.
Celia Hughes (31:14):
Yeah, see, this is the thing of brain injury.
Adam doesn't remember that herecorded.
Adam Griebel (31:21):
I resemble that remark.
Celia Hughes (31:23):
He doesn't remember how he got here an hour
ago.
Adam Griebel (31:26):
Is it like some idea?
Celia Hughes (31:31):
He uh well, what do you remember about the way
Mike dressed?
Adam Griebel (31:34):
I don't.
Was it like Mr.
Green jeans?
Celia Hughes (31:38):
No, he had he always wore uh black and white
check pajama pants.
Adam Griebel (31:42):
Oh yeah, I remember that exactly.
Celia Hughes (31:44):
And uh and a bright yellow Hawaiian shirt.
And he wore those until theyfell off.
They literally fell apart.
He would wash it every now and then.
I would hope.
I would hope he washed them.
Yes, I'm sure he did.
I'm sure he did.
And he lived in his littletrailer and he um
Adam Griebel (32:03):
Where was his trailer?
Celia Hughes (32:04):
He was out in a in a uh uh one of the parks out
near the airport.
It uh has uh sadly closed andbecome some sort of a
development.
Adam Griebel (32:14):
Yeah.
My dad lived ou t right acrossfrom the airport.
Celia Hughes (32:17):
Yeah.
I think the favorite thing thatMike ever did was when we
decided that we were gonnachange the entrance to his
mild-mannered mop boy, and wehad him come out like he was
doing a strip tease.
Do you remember that?
Adam Griebel (32:36):
No, no.
He would take off his
No, he would come out and hewould, I think he he would just
come out and do uh well he hadhe would have his pants on, but
he wouldn't have his shirt on.
Yeah, I remember.
And then he would wiggle hiships and dance around the stage,
and uh, and then he would uhand then he would begin, I'm
just a mild mannered mop boy.
(32:57):
And it you know, his backgrounduh to that, he uh he worked for
a couple of differentorganizations uh as a janitor.
And he actually, when he wehired him and he started working
for us years ago, and he wouldcome in and vacuum.
So he was he uh then waselevated to vacuum man.
(33:18):
So and that's what that was hisidentity, and uh he was proud
of it, and he really maintainedhis vacuum very well.
I I did some janitorial work and I wonder if
that is stereotypical of braininjured people.
Celia Hughes (33:35):
Well, it could be, it could be.
Adam Griebel (33:37):
I sucked.
Celia Hughes (33:38):
Well, you you couldn't keep the plants alive
if I recall.
Adam Griebel (33:42):
Nah, I I remember I was uh I was a janitor from Ru
Maya when they were down onForth and Colorado.
Celia Hughes (33:50):
Okay.
Adam Griebel (33:50):
And we w we had a freezer in the back and we would
make these.
Oh, we had a big tub of ofAmy's chocolate chip cookie
dough ice cream or somethingwith a little specs of cookies
or whatever it was.
And um it was back there.
And I would would go back andtake a little bite, take an and
(34:15):
before I knew it the whole thingwas gone.
Celia Hughes (34:18):
Oh dear.
Adam Griebel (34:19):
And then my boss got got got mad.
Celia Hughes (34:24):
Well you so you didn't lose your job because you
weren't good at the mop.
You were
Because I ate all the ice cream
your your impulse control wasnot not not doing very well back
then.
Well, you know, the thing aboutabout Mike is that he was
loyal, loyal, loyal to actuallives.
But always about a week beforethe show, he would want to quit.
(34:49):
He would get upset withsomebody or he would you know
and I
Sandy Massey.
It was well, there was that, but there was also
just he would just get upset andit was nerves.
It was always nerves, you know.
And then we would uh we wouldconvince him that he that he was
uh important to the show.
Adam Griebel (35:07):
Worthy
Celia Hughes (35:08):
and he would show up Mike Burns Mop Boy Life is a
real roller coaster.
Some days I'm an artist andperformer, other days I'm the
mop boy.
As a young man, I had a seriouscar accident.
I was in a coma for a month anda half.
Upon awakening, I could donothing.
(35:30):
Thirty years later, I walk, Italk, I paint, I mop.
I graduated from UT with a BAin psychology.
I worked there for 17 years andhad to retire because of brain
complications.
I took up painting andperforming.
June of 2004, I went with theactual lives to Washington, DC
(35:52):
to perform at the VSA ArtsInternational Festival.
We really rocked that crowd.
When I got back home, I wentback to my job as a mop boy.
In July of 2004, I went withImagine Arts to New Orleans for
an art show.
I sold three of my paintingsright off the bat.
We had a great time on BourbonStreet, dancing to the music and
(36:14):
the gumbo.
When I got back home, I resumedthe mild mannered mop boy.
On february ninth, two thousandfive, my birthday, I was
performing in front of eighthundred people, cooking on all
cylinders.
A fifty-four year old man braininjured, wearing these same
clothes, dancing to stripteasemusic, just bringing down the
(36:38):
house.
The next day, I'm cleaningbathrooms, emptying trash, and
of course, mopping.
Back at the shack, a self-helpadvocacy center.
In October of 2005, the city ofAustin chose one of my
paintings to publish in atourism book.
Now there's 10,000 copies of myman with a pipe.
(37:00):
I'm kind of famous, but I'mstill a mop boy.
Life's a real roller coaster.
And I'm on it.
And God says, hang on.
So that was that was Mike, youknow?
Adam Griebel (37:14):
I remember I remember that that that panting.
Celia Hughes (37:17):
Yeah.
Can you describe the painting?
Do you remember what it lookslike?
Adam Griebel (37:21):
There's orange.
Orange pants, orange shirt.
I don't recall that.
Celia Hughes (37:25):
Okay.
Well, I remember blue.
I remember it being a bluesailor with a with a pipe, a
white pipe.
Adam Griebel (37:32):
He did a couple of different pantings, I remember.
Celia Hughes (37:36):
Yeah, he did a yeah.
Well, I I have two of them athome.
One he gave me, one I got forhim in his classic black and
white check pants and yellowHawaiian shirt, riding on an old
broken down mule, and the signsays retirement this way.
So I've got that.
(38:00):
And then I've got one of himsitting a self-portrait of him
sitting outside this trailer uhin his classic clothes, uh,
surrounded by uh potted plants,flowers.
And I I that's a nice picture Iremember of him.
He was he was a good additionto the to the company.
Yeah.
So yeah, so we've been talking this episode about
(38:22):
both Meg Barnett and Mike Burnsand their important addition to
the era, the epic decade ofactual lives.
Yeah, and how how I'm not sosure.
I mean, I think we could do anactual lives again, um, but it
would it would be different.
Adam Griebel (38:44):
I'm not talking about I I'm just talking about
the script.
And yeah, disabled actors wouldwould be uh especially with
this organization, would beintegral.
Celia Hughes (38:56):
Right.
Well, you I mean everyone onthe stage had a disability for
actual lives.
And if they didn't, they were acaregiver.
I mean, I when I was goingthrough reading the scripts,
trying to find the stories wewanted to highlight, I actually
found a couple of scripts that Iwas in.
Because I remember our rule isyou couldn't be in the room.
(39:17):
If you were in the room, youhad to participate.
Nobody was an observer.
And and I like that rule, and Itry to keep that rule uh going
when there are other thingsbecause people with disabilities
are always being observed.
There was always somebodybehind the mirror watching what
they were doing, or on the otherside of the glass watching what
(39:37):
they were doing, or observinghow you were walking, or
observing how you're talking.
And and that was part of thethe the ethos of actual lives is
you want to look at us?
Okay, here we are.
We're on stage, look at us allyou want.
But you all have yes, you haveto hear what we have to say
about it too.
Adam Griebel (39:56):
We're gonna say it loudly.
Celia Hughes (39:58):
Yep, absolutely.
Well, thanks, Adam.
Thanks for uh talking with meabout Meg and and Mike.
Adam Griebel (40:05):
Thank you for allowing me to.
John Beer (40:10):
We here at the True Tales podcast suffered a massive
blow when we lost MsBoye Nagelafter a sudden illness at the
end of 2024.
As our den mother, cheerleader,taskmaster, coraller of cats,
Buddha, mentor, and most of all,friend, she somehow shepherded
us through Art Spark Texas'Speaking Advocates program,
(40:31):
teaching us to write and tellour stories in the most
effective, forceful way, andguided us again through the
creation of this podcast so thatwe could amplify our stories
even more in this blossomingmedium.
On her own, she was a powerful,prolific poet with a strong and
awful, playful voice, and aproud longtime advocate for
LGBTQ+ rights, a woman ofconviction.
(40:55):
In other words, she wasqualified all day long to teach
speaking advocacy and wear themany hats she did to bring this
podcast into being.
She was our executive producer,but was involved in all
aspects.
Episode producer, writer,talent, editor, and promoter.
MsB oye was also an actress andwould insist the show must go
(41:17):
on.
And after a hiatus, we're doingjust that.
Ever since we've started in,most of our efforts have been
spent figuring out what MsBoyedid and how to recreate it.
Above all, we want to continueher level of passion for the
podcast, for getting thesestories out there to you.
This is how we'll open mindsand produce the change that we
(41:39):
want.
When we'd meet for speakingadvocates early afternoons on
Saturdays to help us clear ourminds before each session,
MsBoye would ring a bell.
I'm a quadriplegic, andsometimes my morning routines
run long, so that I didn't get achance to eat.
And to my ear, her bell soundedjust like the one from the Taco
(42:00):
Bell commercials.
While everyone else began deepbreathing, I'd have visions of
burritos dancing in my head.
Of course, now when I hear thatbell on my TV, I think of those
early afternoons I got to spendwith my friend, whom I missed
so much.
And how she made us feel.
We had stories worth tellingand shouting out loud.
(42:22):
And a Largel Fresco beanburrito with Diablo Sauz.
We got you, Ms Boye.
MsBoye (42:32):
Thank you for listening to the third season of True
Tales by Disability AdvocatesPodcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,oh, please share it with your
friends and talk about us onsocial media.
If you're feeling particularlyadventurous, consider leaving us
a review on Facebook or even onyour favorite podcast platform.
And of course, don't forget tofollow us on Facebook,
(42:53):
Instagram, and LinkedIn.
Goodbye, everybody, and have awonderful day.
Kamand Alaghehband (42:59):
All episodes of the True Tales by Disability
Advocates podcasts are free onApple Podcasts, Spotify, and
anywhere you get your podcasts
(43:28):
Program is funded in part by a grant from the Texas State Independent Living Council, The Administration for Community Living, and individuals like you.
To learn more about the speaking advocates program sign up for our newsletter at artsparktx.org That'sA R T S P A R K T X dot O R G.
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