November 17, 2025 • 47 mins
Want a clear roadmap to the new EQE without the confusion or the myths? We sat down with the people who helped design it to unpack the why, the what, and the how, so you can plan your path with confidence.
Lee and Gwilym unpack with Chris Mercer, Julia Gwilt and Debbie Slater the new EQE structure with the leaders who shaped it, explain why the change was needed, and map the staged path from Paper F through M3 and M4. They share guidance for trainees, tutors, and firms on training registration, materials, exemptions, and transitions.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_06 (00:00):
Hey Gwillem, welcome back to the world of podcasting.
I think this is the first one inour new series.
How cool's that?
Very uh very cool.
Very cool, Lee.
So it's been a little whilesince you admit it's not that
we've not spoken to one another,but it's we've not spoken to one
another in the context of beingthe host of two IPs and a pod.
Uh what have you been up to?
Anything exciting?
SPEAKER_05 (00:16):
Yeah, it feels like it's quite a lot, but so much
that if I start listing it, I'mnot sure we're going to keep any
listeners.
However, I know you've donesomething really exciting.
What have I done?
Moved house.
Moved house.
Yes, I've moved house.
Yeah.
Up upscaled.
Obviously, we've got everyonedone the operation.
SPEAKER_06 (00:33):
So swiftly approaching my 60th birthday,
I've decided to move house andget a longer mortgage, which is
terribly scary, but possiblykeeps me at cheaper for longer.
So that may that may be a goodthing or it may be a bad thing.
Who knows?
SPEAKER_05 (00:45):
Oh no, no, we we're actually literally working to
get the interest rates to go upto keep you longer as well.
That's part of that fine.
SPEAKER_06 (00:51):
Good job.
I fixed mine then.
So that that tactic won't work.
Yeah, no, it's good.
Yeah, I mean, it's I didn't I'dI mean it's been 25 years since
I've moved out, so I'd forgottenhow terrifying, exhilarating,
and exasperating it was in equalmeasure.
SPEAKER_05 (01:03):
Oh, how is it clearer?
And did you get rid of a lot ofstuff because you brought
absolutely everything?
Yeah, but higher van.
SPEAKER_06 (01:08):
Uh also just forgotten, I didn't know that
actually, because I've neverdone it before.
How complicated it is to get ahigher van and then arrange to
go to a like municipal tip.
They they variously think thatyou are either some kind of fly
tipper or um an industrial wastedisposal man in a van and that
you're kind of pulling a fastone.
So you have to have all yourhigher papers with you and
things like that.
It's yeah, can I can I see yourpapers, please, as you go into
(01:30):
the tip?
But I made six runs to the tipover three days, and it was
quite a big van.
And you know, in 25 years, youstore a ridiculous amount of
rubbish.
SPEAKER_05 (01:38):
And what was the thing that you were most torn
about whether to keep or trash?
SPEAKER_06 (01:44):
Oh, so probably my desktop grinder in the workshop.
Is it an app?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
No, that's a thing that's athat's a physical set of
spinning wheels for the purposesof uh removing metal.
And yeah, it's my promisedmyself I'd get a new one.
And in the end, I couldn'tcouldn't bring myself to part
with it.
So it's now set on the floor ofthe new garage.
SPEAKER_05 (02:04):
You never know when the grinders always come in
useful.
SPEAKER_06 (02:06):
It's it will stay there because then we're going
to buy a new one, and I'll getmoaned at for not getting rid of
it in the first place.
Well, Lee, it's great to beback.
It is absolutely on with apodcast.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Lee David and Willem Roberts are the two IPs in the
pod, and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the ChatteredInstitute of Platinum Attorney.
SPEAKER_06 (02:36):
Well, today uh we're taking a look at the new EQE.
That's exciting stuff to betalking about.
We have Julia Grupt with us andChris Mercer, both well
established in the EPI and wellconnected in terms of the EQE
and the EQE Secretariat and allthings EPO.
Uh Julia, Chris, warm welcome toyou both.
Julia, do you want to introduceyourself first?
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Thanks, Lee.
Yeah, no, I'm partner atAquileard Lee's, but the
educational background comesfrom um setting up the PEB,
which some people may not thankme for now they're doing their
UK exams, but hopefully we'retrying to make it as fair as
possible.
And after 10 years doing thejoint examination board,
followed by the patentexamination board, I focused
(03:16):
more on the EQE side and movedacross to becoming chair of the
professional education committeefor EPI, which I appreciate is a
mouthful.
And as a consequence of that,got involved in the complete
overhaul of the EQE as we wentinto COVID.
SPEAKER_06 (03:33):
I think it would be quite right to say a big, big
thank you for all that you doaround education for formerly
for CEPA, but now uh in relationto the EQE, it's uh I know it's
a huge commitment.
So uh yeah, big thanks for that.
Chris, just in case there'sanyone out there who doesn't
know who you are, do you want tointroduce yourself?
SPEAKER_04 (03:50):
Yeah, hello.
Uh yes, I'm I'm now uh a retiredperson, sort of, but I have been
uh involved in matters educationfor a long time.
And uh what people again willmost hate me for was I pro I was
deeply involved in the draftingof the previous version of the
IPRE and the REE, so the rulesfor uh the EQE, and I've had a
(04:16):
strong interest in uh allmatters educational, and
unfortunately Lee made me be thelead name on the Mercer review.
So um I've done quite a lot oneducation all the way through.
I do an awful lot of um uhtutorials for everything you can
think of.
So I've always had a biginterest in anything to do with
(04:39):
education.
SPEAKER_06 (04:40):
Yeah, no, apologies to the Mercer Review thing.
I remember the conversationwell, and it was important that
it had an eminent name attachedto it, and I couldn't think of
any more eminent.
So uh Gwinnam, you're obviouslyyou've been through the
qualification system.
I know it was quite some timeago.
Uh, so you'll be familiar withthe the EQEs as was.
But I imagine, like me, you'requite excited to find out about
(05:03):
what the new system's gonna looklike.
SPEAKER_05 (05:05):
I am.
I thought I mean I've alwaysbeen a um well, first of all, to
echo the thanks for Julia andChris for just the astonishing
amounts for our education.
It takes people who really careto do it, and it's something
that I think the well, theEuropean profession slash UK
profession benefits from hugelyin terms of being competitive,
providing all that good service.
So getting that one downstraight away is really
(05:27):
important.
Um, and I think the exams when Itook them really quite a long
time ago, both the British andthe Euros in the mid-90s, um,
they were exacting back then.
Uh, but I'm what I'm confidentof is that you know the
standards stay high, butobviously things have changed.
And so, probably my firstquestion, if I'm only, is to
kind of what's occasionedchange?
(05:48):
Why, why, why it was workingbefore, why why are we changing
it?
Everyone will be asking that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
It's that dreaded before times and after times
occasioned by COVID, really, iswhat prompted it.
But I think it had been inpeople's minds beforehand.
So with COVID, we had to stopthe EQEs at very short notice
because you couldn't get athousand people together, even
if it was spread over all of theEuropean countries.
(06:13):
And so, you know, there weremaybe 10, 20 venues that had to
stop and move online at veryshort notice.
And our exams, which weredesigned 44 years ago, were not
really fit for purpose for theonline environment.
So that was a big catalyst, butto be honest, it had been in
people's minds for some timebefore then.
SPEAKER_04 (06:34):
Yeah, I think you know, one of the things that was
already in people's minds, andin particular because of paper
C, was just that the time thateverybody had to spend doing the
exams.
I can't remember how long paperC eventually got, but at one
stage I think it was sevenhours.
And so that sort of burden wassomething which was just getting
(06:54):
ridiculous.
So that was another a bigfactor.
SPEAKER_01 (06:58):
Yes, I sat paper C when it was six hours in person
with the last, just before itwent down to one language.
And then with it had got down tofive hours, which is still an
acceptable length for sitting inone place doing an exam.
But then the reintroductiononline meant it got split into
two three-hour exams, so back upto six hours.
And clearly this is notsustainable for an education
(07:22):
system in the future.
SPEAKER_05 (07:23):
Well, the exams aren't they're not a test of
endurance.
EQES, let's say, Oh, I've got aTV show, EQ EQE, who dares wins.
That's about that.
Apart from that though, so so doyou want to take us through the
kind of the new structure?
I mean, obviously, we've beenthrough a phase having the
preliminary EQEs and everythingelse.
So what's what's the what's thewhole story now?
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
So the idea behind the framework now is to make it
a more gradual step through theprofession.
So you have an exam that you canbe eligible for after just one
year in the profession.
That's called paper F, standsfor foundation.
And then after another year, youcan take another set of papers,
M1 and M2, which are meant to beanother layer along the journey.
(08:07):
And then finally, yeah, afterthree years of professional
training, as you had with theprevious set of exams, you can
take the final two exams.
And the the whole pathway isdesigned to start with more
foundational knowledge, movingthrough, building the skills and
building to advising theclients.
So that's the general frameworknow.
SPEAKER_05 (08:28):
Uh oh, I mean, I know that there's always been a
kind of a slight bias as thelanguage requirements have
decreased, it's got easier.
But there's always been it'salways been a bit easier if
you're a native speaker, Ithink, in one of the exam
languages.
Um has that been factored in aswell?
We've got what, 40 countrieswith candidates here?
Are we looking after the wholepan-European profession?
SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
Well, I was gonna say we we still have the
requirement that the papers areonly in English, French, and
German.
And you can use your nativelanguage in the exam.
So there is an allowance forpeople who do not have a mother
tongue of English, French, orGerman.
It's not often used.
I mean, the the most younormally get is uh a script in
(09:10):
one of the uh EPC languages withsuddenly a word in the native
language where they can't workout what the translation is.
But the you know, it there is anallowance, but it's not very
much used.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
And can I just add, yes, we do sit the exam in our
native language, but the examcertainly for the last few years
hasn't been written with muchinvolvement from native language
speakers.
And a really positive stepforward in the last year is that
we have now an English member ofthe exam board.
So that's the equivalent of likethe governance board at it at
(09:44):
Pebb, who is um based in UK.
It's Liz Elmhurst who gave herpresentation on one of the new
exams with me.
So, because sometimes actually Ithink we can overthink what's
written in the papers and we cansee more than one meaning, which
was not what was intended by thequestion writers who were
familiar with how it's beentranslated into German and
(10:06):
French as well.
So it is a massive advantage, Ithink, being a native speaker,
but it occasionally has itsquirks.
SPEAKER_05 (10:13):
And you've you've I think both apologized at some
point for being involved in theeducation system, but I think
actually obviously that's notthe correct thing, and we're
delighted that you've done it.
But who else is involved in thedecision making for all of this?
Uh, there's obviously a panel ofpeople who've looked at it, made
it, put in the foundation, putin this kind of evolution of
exams.
Who I'm guessing EPO isinvolved.
(10:33):
Maybe who else is involved?
SPEAKER_04 (10:34):
Basically, um the uh the main thing, the REE, uh the
so that's the the top-levelrules, are decided on by the
administrative council of theEPO.
So actually right at the top.
But to get to that draft of theREE, we had a joint working
(10:54):
group between the EPO and EPI,who did an absolutely tremendous
job.
They were uh you know really,really active on that.
And below that you've got theIPRE.
And although those are decidedby the examination supervisory
board, so they don't have to beseen by the administrative
(11:17):
council, they were all developedat the same time by the same
working group doing that.
Um the only way you ever getthose through all the levels,
and in particular through theadmin council, is basically if
the EPI and EPO agree andbasically say yes, we think this
is good, and then the admincouncil will vote yes.
(11:39):
So there's an awful lot of workcarried out uh by lots of people
to firstly get EPI to agree.
Um, and in particular, we had anextraordinary EPI council
meeting, and I use extraordinaryin every possible sense of the
word, where you know, I think II don't remember anywhere near
(12:00):
as many motions per square inchas there were during that.
So it there was an awful lot ofwork by lots of people, some you
know up there in lights, and alot of people uh whose names you
know are not very well known,but they did an awful lot of
work to get this whole packagetogether and eventually through
the admin council.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
And just to reinforce that, and I think a
lot of people think that the EQEcomes from the EPO, and very
definitely it couldn't happenwithout the EPO supporting it
from a computing andadministrative side, because
they do that function.
But it is definitely an EPO EPIproject with most of the
examination marking done by EPImembers, so European patent
(12:44):
attendance like you, me and andChris Gwillem.
And um, a lot of the examsetting is done also by EPI
members, although the EPO isalso involved in the exam
setting as well.
And just to mention thatextraordinary council meeting,
it was online, it ran over byseveral hours, and I had to
leave because I had to board aplane.
(13:06):
I'd sat at the airport listeningto quite a lot of it, and it and
then just had to had to um as Iwas standing there waiting for
my passport and boarding car tobe checked, I finally decided I
did actually have to drop out ofthat meeting.
But it was a very heatedmeeting.
A lot of questions asked aboutwhy we were implementing the new
EQE system and and what thebenefits to the profession were.
(13:29):
So maybe we could come up, weshould come on to the detail.
SPEAKER_05 (13:32):
I was going to actually, yeah, I was exactly
going to ask next to give us aflavor for the kind of the
content of the different levelsof exam.
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
So I think the the most important thing is that the
standard is the same at the end.
So the final three-year exam isintended to be the same level
overall as as what we've alwayshad previously.
And actually, we're not allowedto say this because the EPO
don't like it, do they, Chris?
It's really what's happened isall the skills that were tested
and have been tested for decadeshave sort of been thrown up in
(14:03):
the air and scattered back downin a slightly different place.
But they're they are all there,and and candidates are doing the
same sorts of things thatthey've been doing that you did
in the 90s, Gwillam, and I didin the 2000s.
So um hopefully that gives somecomfort.
Did you want to add anything,Chris?
SPEAKER_04 (14:21):
I think the only thing that I might add is that
they have actually modernized itin a sense, in that uh, if you
think about it, there was almostnothing about what happens if
you go to appeal, uh, apart fromin you know the legal paper.
But now there are there's apossibility that you might have
to draft a response to an appealstatement or something like
(14:43):
that.
Uh so it it does cover muchmore, you know, not much more,
but it covers more than uh theprevious uh exams, but only in a
sort of fairly technical sense.
The actual skills that you'regoing to need are exactly the
same.
Um, it's just that you mighthave to apply them in a
different place.
SPEAKER_05 (15:04):
And so those three stages, is it the case that at
each stage uh a review of yourabilities across all the
relevant skills, but more andmore difficult?
Or do they split them up betweenthe different stages?
For example, oppositions.
Did you touch on oppositionthree times, or do you just do
an opposition paper at the end,something like that?
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
So you do touch on all of the knowledge at all
stages, and the skills are builtin gradually.
And by skills we mean theability to analyze the
information and give advice, butit is across the whole range.
So even in the first paper F,there are some legal questions
which would focus on the sort offundamentals of novelty and
procedure.
(15:42):
But there are also claimanalysis questions, so looking
at some claims, maybe looking ata bit of priority, but it would
all be very short,self-contained information that
you can read and pass quickly,and then the questions are
around novelty and clarity atthat first stage.
Maybe a very basic question oninventive step, but you know,
very basic.
So yes, it's the whole range ateach stage.
(16:05):
Year two, you bring in more umskills, knowledge as well, but
it so and it's difficult becauseand we're still working out how
to best express this and bringthe documentation forwards, is
but the intention is it's thesort of material that people
could handle after two years inthe profession.
So probably more focused onamendment in terms of the
(16:27):
practical skills, but you wouldbe looking at all aspects of
normal team venture step.
And as Chris said, it could bepotentially amendment in
relation to some third-partyobservations or amendment in
relation to an opposition or inan appeal.
So not very limited to the theway it has been in the past.
SPEAKER_05 (16:46):
And in terms of kind of preparing for it, is there is
there was always kind oftraining through the EPO and of
course at the firm level andvarious courses, have there been
changes to the the trainingprogram or the resources
available, or um are we is itstill basically self-driven?
SPEAKER_04 (17:02):
There will still be lots of um resources.
I mean, EPI is already doing umcourse on uh various bits of the
EQE, um, as are lots of otherpeople preparing to do them.
Um so it's all developing uh aswe go along.
The the main problem at themoment for anybody who's trying
(17:24):
to do any preparation is thereis very little material to work
with because there are obviouslyno past papers.
There are example papers around,and there are further, well, you
know, not example, but uh thingsthat would be papers if they
could be.
(17:44):
Um so there there is preparationbeing done, and so people are
working very hard at puttingtogether uh educational
materials.
So on at that level, there's notas much as perhaps anyone would
like.
Uh, but I'm sure it will developvery quickly.
And you know, those people whoare providing courses have
(18:07):
within their organization peoplewho were involved in the whole
thing, and so they will be ableto tailor the courses they are
providing uh to deal with that.
I think the biggest problem maybe for uh people in smaller
firms, smaller where thereprobably would have been no
involvement in the developmentof this.
(18:29):
I think they will probably stillbe able to do very good
education as long as they didjust about the same thing that
they did for the EQE anyway,because as Julia said, the
content is the same, it's justgoing to appear in different
places.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
Sorry, can I just add one very important thing
that hasn't changed but came tolight again this year?
Is that there's two things tothink about for the EQEs.
One is registering yourtraining, whether that's
training with a professionalwho's already a qualified EPA,
which is probably 98% ofcandidates, or whether you're
doing that much rarer but stillused route of working directly
(19:07):
for an employer.
You have to register yourtraining.
You then enrol for exams.
We don't talk about in the EQEsystem, it's just semantics, as
we're well aware with in ourprofession.
Words that have an ordinaryEnglish meaning can then be used
in context to have a veryspecific meaning.
You register your training andyou enroll for the exams, and
(19:29):
you need to have registered yourtraining as soon as possible,
and certainly before a cutoffdate, which is a long time
before you actually need tothink about enrolling for the
exam.
SPEAKER_04 (19:41):
Yeah, everybody needs to know that as soon as
they join the profession, theyshould register for the EQE,
even if it's on the day you joinyour first employment, register
for the EQE.
SPEAKER_06 (19:53):
It's always exciting when we get a surprise guest on
the podcast.
Uh and and we've got surpriseguests now.
So Debbie Slater has joined us.
Debbie is uh TIFA council memberand chair of CEPA's education
committee.
Hey Debbie, welcome to thepodcast.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
Yes, patent attorney, understanding member
of the profession, and councilmember, and as you say, chair of
the education committee.
I've been involved with theeducation committee probably for
well over 10 years now, so areasonable length of time.
I have a passion for education,having taken time out of being a
patent attorney to train as ahigh school teacher, to follow
(20:30):
my father's footsteps.
He was a maths and a P teacherin the day.
So when I was a little girl, Iused to line up my teddies and
teach them using a blackboardand a piece of chalk.
SPEAKER_06 (20:42):
So maybe we stop there.
Let's not go too far too fast,too far into charge of memories.
So yeah, welcome to the podcast.
Just to bring up today, we'vetalked we've talked a little bit
about the history.
So what happened previously, whythe changes, we've we've not got
deep into the new structure,which I think is probably the
place to go in a moment.
But I don't know if you wantedto say something about the role
(21:03):
that Education Committee has hadin kind of watching the
development of the EQE and thestuff that you've been involved
in.
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Yeah, so I mean, as the name says, the Education
Committee is involved in a lotof things educational.
And we're going through a periodof um change, I think, in
regards to education andtraining, both with the EQEs and
with the IPREC education review.
So what we're trying to do isthe committees to be involved
(21:32):
with both of those and perhapsto bring all the strands
together because they, you know,with not unique probably, but
the profession has these twostrands of education and
training that they need to gothrough, both the Us and the UK
exam.
So I think as a as a committee,what we try to do is provide a
way to provide feedback to thevarious bodies that are involved
(21:56):
in the qualification process andto bring the specificate, to
bring the strands together andencourage people, the wider
membership, to become involvedin this, because I think it's
it's very important to be ableto ensure that people are
involved in education andtraining have the information
and the support that they needfor this, because we do need
(22:16):
support members of theprofession who are involved in
training new entrants to theprofession so that they can they
can help develop the candidatesand the trainees' understanding
of the profession and what theyneed to do to progress their
career.
So I suppose, yeah, we're we'rethere as a sort of central
point, I suppose, and hopefullyto be able to bring things
(22:38):
together and disseminateinformation and facilitate
people to have a say.
SPEAKER_06 (22:46):
We've thought a lot about how the change impact on
candidate students, but maybenot enough on how it impacts on
those that support them and andand help them through their
training.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
I think it I think it's it's a very important
aspect because I I think for alot of people who have been
around the profession and whowould like to support trainees
perhaps feel a bit worried aboutdoing that because they're not
quite sure how to do it.
They themselves will have beentrained, but they maybe want to
be able to do it differently orhave there's a different set of
(23:17):
circumstances.
So it's I think it's a reallyimportant part of this is to
support the trainer.
Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_06 (23:24):
Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
So, Chris, Julia, if I couldkind of come back to you.
If that's okay, if I continue.
Yeah.
So the thing we've not done yetis to talk too much about the
structure of the new system.
And I know that's going to bequite difficult without the
ability to put up charts uh andtalk through graphics and so on.
And I know there's been somereally good stuff, Julia,
particularly on that.
Could you give could you give usa little overview of of what the
(23:45):
new qualification looks like interms of its structure?
SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
Yes.
So in paper F, this is um uh afully automatically marked
paper.
So it has a series of questionswhich you can answer without
giving a free text um, sorry,you don't need a free text
answer.
So they're not all multiplechoices.
So I'm struggling not to use theword multiple choice, because we
all have horrors, or those of uswho've taught the pre-exam are
(24:10):
not particularly enamoured ofmultiple choice questions as
they've been implemented at somepoints during the the EQE.
So there may be just somestraightforward multiple choice
questions, there may be someother question formats, drag and
drop, other things which arehandled automatically in the
examination system, which iscalled WiseFlow.
And the the same styles ofquestions can be used both for
(24:30):
the legal questions in part oneand then, as I said, for the the
claims analysis questions.
So it's more flexible, themultiple choice, but it's all
going to be markedautomatically.
So the results are available afew weeks after the exam is
actually sapped in March.
Then we move on to the next setof papers, M1 and M2, where part
(24:51):
of the exam will probablycontinue to be automatically
marked, but the second part ofthe examination will be a free
text answer.
So for M1, which is testing theskills, that at the moment is
going to be like a mini paper Bfor those of you familiar with
B, i.e.
a mini amendment paper.
(25:12):
And by mini, what we mean isit'll just have a smaller amount
of information so that all thewords will be fewer, it'll be
simpler technology, and whatyou're actually asked to do will
also be broken down andexplained rather than just sort
of prepare a response.
You'll be given a breakdown ofwhat you're expected to do and
how many marks each section willhave.
(25:34):
Then for M2, which is the legalpaper, in 2026, so that's the
next session, that will be verysimilar to the old style D1.
In fact, it will be the oldstyle D1 paper, which is the
short legal questions and shorttext answers, where you have to
(25:54):
give the basis.
It'll be it will actually beexactly the same exam, minus one
question, and then it willevolve in 2027 and beyond.
And then finally for the thirdyear, M3 and M4.
I'll do M4 first because that'sthe easier of the two.
That will be basically like parttwo of D.
So it'll be a longer legalanalysis question with various
(26:18):
things going on.
You have to break down theinformation, work out what's
gone right, what's gone wrong,what the client's position is,
and then give adviceaccordingly.
The reason I've left M3 till theend is because this is the the
mammoth paper, which has a partA, a part B and a part C.
Although strictly speaking, Ithink we're supposed to call
them part one, two, and three,because we're not meant to refer
(26:41):
to them as the amend thedrafting paper A, i.e.
part A, the amendment paper,i.e.
part B, and the opposition paperpart C.
But effectively that's what itis.
So the first part of the paperyou'll be writing a patent
application, some claims or somepart of a patent application.
The second part you will bedefending some claims that
(27:03):
you're already written, and thensorry, and and in the third part
you will be attacking.
So something like an opposition,but as Chris mentioned, it could
be later in the oppositionstage, it could be part of an
appeal process, or maybe evendealing with some TPOs or
something that've come in.
So there's more flexibility inthe in the the three parts.
SPEAKER_06 (27:23):
Even I understood that, but I've been talking
about it for a long time now, soyou would hope that I would,
wouldn't you?
Chris, do you want to add do youwant to add anything to that
from your perspective?
SPEAKER_04 (27:30):
Well, I think the only thing that we haven't
mentioned is all eggs in onebasket approach.
In theory, this is set up, asJulian said, that you do uh a
graduated approach, you start atyear end of year one and take F,
and end of year two, you take M1and M2, and then the end of year
three, you take M3 and M4.
(27:52):
And you don't have to take themactually like that.
You can you have to take in mostcircumstances F first, but then
you take uh you can take theother ones in order or spread
them out.
But there is the all eggs in onebasket.
You can take all of M1, 2, M4 inone fell swoop and not take
(28:18):
paper F, which sounds a goodidea.
Oh, miss out on the exam.
The big drawback with that isthat if you fail any one of
those papers, you have to uh goback, resit that paper, and also
take paper F as well.
So that's uh how confident areyou feeling sort of thing.
(28:40):
So it's a nice idea, but Iwonder whether anybody will want
to uh follow that route.
I've got that right in my Julia.
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah, yes, more or less.
It's just you might you may ormay not have to resit paper F,
depending on what combination ofthe papers of M1 to M4 you pass
on the first sitting.
And please don't ask me to giveany more information than that
because I've been through it andI'll probably say it incorrectly
because yeah, it's becausethere's a mix of legal and and
practical questions in all ofthe papers, and so not all
(29:10):
combinations give you theexemption, if you like, from
taking F, but some do.
So yeah, and I think the otherthing that's worth mentioning is
well, there's two things.
One, we have finally moved awayfrom a fixed pass mark of
whether it was 70% for thepre-exam or 50%, and the pass
mark will be set between arange, there is a range, um, and
(29:34):
it depends on which paperthey're looking at, and will be
set based on the performance ofthe candidates in that paper.
And by that, I don't just mean abell curve will be looked at,
although that might be obviouslylooked at as a sanity check, but
it's more did the questionsperform how they were expected?
Because obviously the questionscan only be tested on qualified
(29:56):
people.
We can't use guinea pigs whohaven't yet sat the Exam as
before they're actually going tosit the exam three three weeks.
And so there are sometimes,inevitably, in any examination
system, some questions thatdon't quite perform how or
candidates interpret thequestion differently and and
write a different answer.
So this gives the flexibility toset the pass mark based on what
(30:17):
is a reasonable pass rather thanbeing fixed constrained by the
fixed pass mark and then havingto adjust the marking to fit the
pass mark.
So that that's an importantchange.
And then the other importantchange was with M3, where you
have the three skills draftingamendment, and let's call it
opposition, although as I say itit might be slightly broader
(30:39):
than that.
They're tested at the same time.
The three parts of the paper areshorter than the very definitely
shorter than the sum of A to C,as they currently are.
I think it's probably at leasthalf the length of time.
I can't remember exact numbers.
But that's because some of thoseskills have already been tested
in F, M1 and M2, but alsobecause the paper is constructed
(31:01):
in a way that avoids theduplication of testing of the
same skills.
So at the moment, as we know,added subject matter can be a
really important thing that youneed to analyse for amendment
and opposition.
But you don't necessarily needto be analysed on it twice or
assessed on it twice in the sameyear.
Same with novelty andeventually.
Same concepts come up time andtime again in all three papers.
(31:23):
So the idea is to be moreefficient over the three papers
and avoid unnecessaryduplication.
That's not to say that therewon't be some duplication
because some skills are reallycore, but you won't be doing the
same thing multiple times.
Like sometimes it fills withpaper C, Chris, doesn't it?
I've seen you mark those paperC's, and it's like yeah, keeping
the will to live while you'rewriting your fourth inventive
(31:44):
step attack.
Is it a challenge?
SPEAKER_05 (31:47):
So that thank you.
Thanks for that.
That's that's that's reallyclear.
I just think it's just thedifferent constituencies kind of
affected by this.
Obviously, there's these thetrainees themselves.
I think there's lots ofinformation we've stunned for
them there.
There's the firms or industrieskind of handling it.
I think again they're gonna theyhave a feel here for some of the
tips.
And we've touched a little biton the other one, but let's just
talk a bit more about that.
(32:08):
So the majority of peopleactually involved the trainers,
not trainees, probably.
Statistically, that kind ofmakes sense.
What's the biggest message?
What's the biggest changetrainers need to think about,
maybe in addition to the logintraining that you mentioned
already?
SPEAKER_04 (32:22):
Well, I would have thought the main thing to do is
say, as Juga did, we are testingthe same skills.
So if you can do any of the pastpapers and you would have passed
the pay those past papers, youwill have the right skills.
But they're not going to come upexactly as you see them now.
They could come up in manydifferent forms.
(32:43):
So just be, you know, don't besurprised by the unexpected,
because it's almost expected.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
And I think what's important as well, there are
some webinars and sessions whichare targeted purely for the
tutors.
And I think sometimes they getoverlooked or trainees attend
them rather than tutors.
And I don't think it'snecessarily a bad thing that
trainees are there, but but thetrainers could also be there.
So, for example, last a fewweeks ago, Liz and I did a a
(33:10):
session on M1 and what to expectin the first edition of M1,
which is coming up in 2026.
Um and as I mentioned, LizElmost is the UK member on the
exam board, and she actually hasresponsibility for M1.
So hearing what she thinks aboutit is really useful.
Obviously, she can't tell youwhat's going to be on the paper.
(33:32):
That would be too nice, wouldn'tit?
But um, she can give us a goodindication of the types of
topics and the level of thetopics that are going to be
examined.
So we had that and that'srecorded, and you can go back
and look at that.
But also, and I think this I I'mgonna say I didn't know that
this was a as big and importantmeeting as it was when I was
tutoring um until I got my othertitle, is there's an EQE tutors
(33:56):
meeting, which is held annually,it just was last week.
It isn't recorded,unfortunately, but I don't think
the UK tutors are as representedas they could be at that
meeting.
It's quite intense, it goes onfor two half days where all of
the exam boards present on theirpaper that happened in March and
answer questions on it.
(34:17):
Um, and this year we hadbreakout sessions and we also
had dedicated sessions on thenew papers.
And in fact, the breakout roomsfor A and B.
No one really wanted to talkabout last year's A and B
because I've only got one moreleft anyway, haven't we?
The conversation was verydefinite about what's happening
and how are these skills goingto be tested next year.
(34:38):
So I think it's I know it's toolate now to say you should have
gone to that meeting last week,but next year it will be even
more important because we'll betalking about the first year of
all of the new modules in 2027.
So I think it could be a reallyengaging meeting to go to.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
I think this is where the institute has an
important role to play in termsof disseminating information
about these sorts of things,because you know the the
informals are very wellconnected in terms of being able
to get information out to fellowcandidates.
But as I said not that long ago,you know, supporting the
trainers is also very importantto give them the skills and the
(35:20):
information so that they cansupport their candidates and
provide them with the rightinformation.
So I think that's a big rolethat the Education Committee and
the Institute can play in termsof networking into what's
available and then passing it onto them, and something that you
know we can definitely work at.
So that'll be certainly part ofmy role will be to make sure
that I can try and make surethat um we we do as the same
(35:43):
network in and give people thatinformation.
SPEAKER_06 (35:54):
Because that's one of my jobs on the podcast, is to
try and keep us to a reasonablelength of time.
I think I I'm usually quitesuccessful.
I suspect we could keep ontalking forever about
examinations.
And Debbie, keeping with youmaybe, first off, although I
know that Julia has also had abig, big role to play in this,
can we talk exemptions?
So um so so in the past,obviously people are used to the
fact that you can get exemptionsfrom aspects of the UK
(36:17):
qualifying examinations uh onceyou pass the EQE.
And I know that there's beenlots of talk of thought about
what that might look like in thefuture.
Anything we can share at thismoment in time.
SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
Julia and I have spoken a lot about this.
And in fact, we have someinformal groups of people who
are involved in in both the EQEsand the UK SAM system getting
together to talk about how wecan make this good for people.
I think I think the underlyingprinciple is that we want to
keep the exemptions if we can,and there should be no reason
(36:46):
why you can't, but there has tobe a process and that needs to
be done through formally.
And obviously, IPREG and the PEBare part of that process.
I'm hopeful that we can get anexemption, but I think you know
we do have to go through aprocess, the exams have changed,
and so we need to make sure thatwe are dotting the I's and
crossing the T's.
(37:08):
We now have some mock papersthat have been issued, so we get
a feel for particularly M3,which is the paper that's most
significant for the exemptions.
So at least we can we now havesight of at least one mock
paper, but it's definitely workin progress, but something that
(37:29):
is important.
I mean, Julia, what would youwell?
SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
I think there's I think you've got to distinguish
between two types of exemptions.
There's the exemption frompassing the EQE as a whole, and
there was a recent announcementthat that will not change.
So if a candidate passes thewhole EQE, which it for many UK
candidates is on their firstsitting, but I don't want to put
pressure on candidates, often itmight take two or three
sittings, but UK candidates aregenerally successful in passing
(37:54):
the EQE after one or a smallnumber of attempts.
If in that case, you would thencarry the exemptions, the plan
is that they're going to carryforward.
What is still up for debate andneeds further analysis is the
individual paper-by-paperexemptions that we've grown used
to over the last decade orlonger, where if you had A, you
(38:17):
didn't have to do drafting inthe UK or FD2 as it is now, and
B in Europe meant you didn'thave to do FD3 in the UK system.
Those individual mappings havenot yet been done because we
didn't have the mock M3 to lookat.
We only had very basicinformation about what M3 would
consider.
We now have the mock M3, but weliterally landed last week or
(38:41):
the week before last.
So there's a piece of work to bedone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:44):
So I think the message has to be please don't
stress about it.
There's a process to be gonethrough.
The will is there to keep thoseexemptions.
And I think that's theunderlying message that we have
at present.
But again, Julia or Chris, Idon't know if you've got any
thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
Well, and and just to be clear, 2027 is the first
time that anyone can sit M3.
So we've got time on our side.
I know that's not nice forcandidates.
They want this, they want theum, they want to know now, but
it will be done before 2027,July 2027, which is when the
first EQE candidates would becoming through with their passes
(39:22):
in M3.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
But it's certainly on the radar and it's certainly
been considered.
It's it's not something that'sbeen put on the back burder.
But as Julia said, you know, atthe moment the status quo is is
happening.
So please be assured that youknow it's something that's been
worked on and looked at.
SPEAKER_06 (39:41):
Thanks for that update.
So I'm gonna draw us to a closenow, unless there are any kind
of final remarks.
SPEAKER_01 (39:47):
Well, the only other thing that comes up time and
time again, Lee, is thetransition provisions because
you talked about the link to theUK system, but what about the
people who are halfway throughthe old system?
And there, all I can say is it'squite a generous system of
allowing you to carry throughyour passes, but only your
passes are not compensable,fail, so marks between 45 to 50
(40:08):
through to the new system and uhavoiding taking um corresponding
papers in the new system.
So the one thing I think isworth mentioning, as it was
mentioned in the EQE Tuesday'smeeting, it is quite a generous
system, but it's once you startclaiming the exemptions, it it's
five years, it doesn't lastforever.
So it's not going to be that ifyou took and passed paper C in I
(40:30):
don't know, 2020, it's stillgoing to be valid in 2025, in
35.
So, you know, you you do need tocrack on and get qualified.
SPEAKER_06 (40:40):
Yeah, understood.
I thanks all.
If you've been on the podcastbefore you've listened to the
podcast, you will know that wealways try and end with some
kind of tangential closer whereI surprise Gwillam with a
question and then we surpriseyou with it as well.
So, Gillam, I've got one.
Um I'm gonna I I wanted to stickwith the education theme and
qualifications or examinations.
So I would like you to sharewith me, us, if you will, the
(41:04):
examination or qualificationthat you are most proud of.
What gives you the greatestpride in your life?
But um, try and stay away fromthe normal kind of
run-on-the-mill academic stuffthat you can.
SPEAKER_05 (41:14):
Oh, it's got a fire safety certificate.
I had the most brilliant timeafternoon training when I was at
I didn't go on the show, butyears and years ago, to be one
of the fire wardens, and we gotto fire fire extinguishers into
big things of water covered inpetrol, and there's like flames
everywhere.
And I got my certificate forthat, and uh it's the only one I
had on the wall.
(41:36):
That's my answer.
Have you ever had a clearfunnel?
No, I mean you've got to use theright, I mean you've got to sit
there for quite longdeliberately which extinguisher
to use.
I remember that much, but Iforget the answer, just to be
careful.
Yeah.
So no, I I wouldn't, youwouldn't want you wouldn't want
me near a fire after all that.
SPEAKER_06 (41:52):
Chris, how about you?
You must have a long list ofaccomplishments.
What's your what's yourstandout?
SPEAKER_04 (41:56):
Oh my I think my my favorite one, not necessarily
standout, is uh I qualified as auh what's it called, passenger
vehicle driver, so that I cantake patients from a hospital uh
on trips.
Um so I had to do a you know arather extensive driving test on
a very big van, and I muchenjoyed that.
(42:18):
And I like the yeah, it's areally good thing to do.
The old PSP is a very goodthing.
It's not quite that's apassenger service vehicle, but
yeah, because I I'm not allowedto charge people for my
services.
SPEAKER_01 (42:31):
Well, I've still started, and it's actually
nothing that I can claim creditfor if I'm honest.
It's but it's now my childrenare going through the process of
learning to drive.
The the difference between thelicense they get and the license
I got just before the ruleschanged back in the the 90s is
quite incredible.
I can drive a 310 lorryaccording to my license.
(42:52):
Would you want me to do that?
Hell no.
And more, I think it's a lorrywith a trailer.
There's no way I could drivethat.
Not even if I needed to go tothe tip multiple times, Lee,
like you did.
And I'm not sure they'd believeyou if you turn up with a lorry
of that size that you'veactually hired it, have they?
SPEAKER_06 (43:10):
Yeah, that recognise that entirely.
Yeah, have that conversationwith my children.
SPEAKER_02 (43:14):
Well, I'll I'll continue on that theme, I think.
It took me five goes to get mydriving license.
I tried twice when I was workingat the EPO in The Hague and
failed both times.
Sorry, no, I took it three timesand failed in Hague.
Then I decided to go back to theUK and do one of these quick
courses, you know, and I failedagain and then and then passed
(43:38):
on the retail.
I was really pleased that I'dgot it because I was just about
to start a new job as anin-house patent manager for
Vickers and I had a company car.
So I needed to be able to driveto have the company car.
So the first time I'd everdriven a car on my own was when
I picked up my rover from theBritish Leyland garage in crew,
(44:00):
and I managed to crash it threedays later.
Apparently, the quickest claimon an insurer at figures at the
time between starting work.
And in fact, I hadn't evenstarted work.
I just so yeah, yeah.
Passing my driving test anywaywas quite an accomplishment for
(44:24):
me.
SPEAKER_05 (44:25):
So thank you, Debbie, and everyone.
Um now it's my turn to ask Lee.
I'm gonna can I guess firstthough, Lee?
You've got you'll have an you'veI know you always have an answer
before you put your questions inbecause that's your that's your
cheat.
But um, I'm gonna is it aboutfish?
No.
What is what is your what isyour favourite surprise
qualification, Lee?
SPEAKER_06 (44:44):
First of all, let me just make a comment, if I may,
and that's that it wasinteresting that you all talked
about things that are bothknowledge and competence based.
So that that was just aninteresting observation I'll
I'll take from that.
And mine is the same, it's thevery first qualification I got
out outside of, I don't know,maybe a certificate you might
have got at first school ormiddle school back in the day
when that's what they werecalled.
Uh so when I was 15, so beforeI'd taken any qualifications at
(45:06):
school, I qualified as afootball referee.
Totally randomly, I just thoughtit'd be an interesting thing to
do.
Went along to the upstairs of apub, which was where the the
course was held for about 10, 12weeks, did a few practical
sessions running aroundwhistling and stuff like that.
Uh, qualified as a footballreferee, did it a couple of
times, terrified me, the abusethat I got, never did it again.
SPEAKER_05 (45:25):
I've seen a local game um just in the park, and
somebody just punched thereferee, knocked him flat.
SPEAKER_06 (45:31):
It looks, yeah, that was bravely.
That was brave.
Yeah, it was I don't think I hadany idea what I was having for
it, just when I was, oh, thisseems like a good idea.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
It wasn't it's a nice little urner for teenagers
when my kids were growing up.
The um teenagers were doing it.
But I think if you're a teenagerdoing younger children, then
it's perhaps not so abusive.
Well, yeah, we try not to be.
SPEAKER_06 (45:51):
I've run, I've run I I have so many children,
particularly boys.
I spent 25 plus years runningthe line.
So I did use my skills, but in alinesman capacity, and that was
scary enough.
And even with young children,parents can be terrifying.
So I think we're gonna have todraw it to a conclusion there,
Gillem.
I I need to remember what weused to do in the old days when
(46:12):
we were doing podcastspreviously, and that's to say,
if you've listened to this andfound it as enjoyable hearing it
as we have uh recording it, thenleave us a little review
somewhere, and that'll enablepeople to find us.
Chris, Julia, Debbie, thank youso much for joining us.
And Gwillem, I will see you onthe next one.
SPEAKER_02 (46:26):
Bye bye, everybody.
Hey Gwillem, welcome back to the world of podcasting.
I think this is the first one inour new series.
How cool's that?
Very uh very cool.
Very cool, Lee.
So it's been a little whilesince you admit it's not that
we've not spoken to one another,but it's we've not spoken to one
another in the context of beingthe host of two IPs and a pod.
Uh what have you been up to?
Anything exciting?
SPEAKER_05 (00:16):
Yeah, it feels like it's quite a lot, but so much
that if I start listing it, I'mnot sure we're going to keep any
listeners.
However, I know you've donesomething really exciting.
What have I done?
Moved house.
Moved house.
Yes, I've moved house.
Yeah.
Up upscaled.
Obviously, we've got everyonedone the operation.
SPEAKER_06 (00:33):
So swiftly approaching my 60th birthday,
I've decided to move house andget a longer mortgage, which is
terribly scary, but possiblykeeps me at cheaper for longer.
So that may that may be a goodthing or it may be a bad thing.
Who knows?
SPEAKER_05 (00:45):
Oh no, no, we we're actually literally working to
get the interest rates to go upto keep you longer as well.
That's part of that fine.
SPEAKER_06 (00:51):
Good job.
I fixed mine then.
So that that tactic won't work.
Yeah, no, it's good.
Yeah, I mean, it's I didn't I'dI mean it's been 25 years since
I've moved out, so I'd forgottenhow terrifying, exhilarating,
and exasperating it was in equalmeasure.
SPEAKER_05 (01:03):
Oh, how is it clearer?
And did you get rid of a lot ofstuff because you brought
absolutely everything?
Yeah, but higher van.
SPEAKER_06 (01:08):
Uh also just forgotten, I didn't know that
actually, because I've neverdone it before.
How complicated it is to get ahigher van and then arrange to
go to a like municipal tip.
They they variously think thatyou are either some kind of fly
tipper or um an industrial wastedisposal man in a van and that
you're kind of pulling a fastone.
So you have to have all yourhigher papers with you and
things like that.
It's yeah, can I can I see yourpapers, please, as you go into
(01:30):
the tip?
But I made six runs to the tipover three days, and it was
quite a big van.
And you know, in 25 years, youstore a ridiculous amount of
rubbish.
SPEAKER_05 (01:38):
And what was the thing that you were most torn
about whether to keep or trash?
SPEAKER_06 (01:44):
Oh, so probably my desktop grinder in the workshop.
Is it an app?
No, no, no, no, no, no.
No, that's a thing that's athat's a physical set of
spinning wheels for the purposesof uh removing metal.
And yeah, it's my promisedmyself I'd get a new one.
And in the end, I couldn'tcouldn't bring myself to part
with it.
So it's now set on the floor ofthe new garage.
SPEAKER_05 (02:04):
You never know when the grinders always come in
useful.
SPEAKER_06 (02:06):
It's it will stay there because then we're going
to buy a new one, and I'll getmoaned at for not getting rid of
it in the first place.
Well, Lee, it's great to beback.
It is absolutely on with apodcast.
SPEAKER_00 (02:18):
Lee David and Willem Roberts are the two IPs in the
pod, and you are listening to apodcast on intellectual property
brought to you by the ChatteredInstitute of Platinum Attorney.
SPEAKER_06 (02:36):
Well, today uh we're taking a look at the new EQE.
That's exciting stuff to betalking about.
We have Julia Grupt with us andChris Mercer, both well
established in the EPI and wellconnected in terms of the EQE
and the EQE Secretariat and allthings EPO.
Uh Julia, Chris, warm welcome toyou both.
Julia, do you want to introduceyourself first?
SPEAKER_01 (02:56):
Thanks, Lee.
Yeah, no, I'm partner atAquileard Lee's, but the
educational background comesfrom um setting up the PEB,
which some people may not thankme for now they're doing their
UK exams, but hopefully we'retrying to make it as fair as
possible.
And after 10 years doing thejoint examination board,
followed by the patentexamination board, I focused
(03:16):
more on the EQE side and movedacross to becoming chair of the
professional education committeefor EPI, which I appreciate is a
mouthful.
And as a consequence of that,got involved in the complete
overhaul of the EQE as we wentinto COVID.
SPEAKER_06 (03:33):
I think it would be quite right to say a big, big
thank you for all that you doaround education for formerly
for CEPA, but now uh in relationto the EQE, it's uh I know it's
a huge commitment.
So uh yeah, big thanks for that.
Chris, just in case there'sanyone out there who doesn't
know who you are, do you want tointroduce yourself?
SPEAKER_04 (03:50):
Yeah, hello.
Uh yes, I'm I'm now uh a retiredperson, sort of, but I have been
uh involved in matters educationfor a long time.
And uh what people again willmost hate me for was I pro I was
deeply involved in the draftingof the previous version of the
IPRE and the REE, so the rulesfor uh the EQE, and I've had a
(04:16):
strong interest in uh allmatters educational, and
unfortunately Lee made me be thelead name on the Mercer review.
So um I've done quite a lot oneducation all the way through.
I do an awful lot of um uhtutorials for everything you can
think of.
So I've always had a biginterest in anything to do with
(04:39):
education.
SPEAKER_06 (04:40):
Yeah, no, apologies to the Mercer Review thing.
I remember the conversationwell, and it was important that
it had an eminent name attachedto it, and I couldn't think of
any more eminent.
So uh Gwinnam, you're obviouslyyou've been through the
qualification system.
I know it was quite some timeago.
Uh, so you'll be familiar withthe the EQEs as was.
But I imagine, like me, you'requite excited to find out about
(05:03):
what the new system's gonna looklike.
SPEAKER_05 (05:05):
I am.
I thought I mean I've alwaysbeen a um well, first of all, to
echo the thanks for Julia andChris for just the astonishing
amounts for our education.
It takes people who really careto do it, and it's something
that I think the well, theEuropean profession slash UK
profession benefits from hugelyin terms of being competitive,
providing all that good service.
So getting that one downstraight away is really
(05:27):
important.
Um, and I think the exams when Itook them really quite a long
time ago, both the British andthe Euros in the mid-90s, um,
they were exacting back then.
Uh, but I'm what I'm confidentof is that you know the
standards stay high, butobviously things have changed.
And so, probably my firstquestion, if I'm only, is to
kind of what's occasionedchange?
(05:48):
Why, why, why it was workingbefore, why why are we changing
it?
Everyone will be asking that.
SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
It's that dreaded before times and after times
occasioned by COVID, really, iswhat prompted it.
But I think it had been inpeople's minds beforehand.
So with COVID, we had to stopthe EQEs at very short notice
because you couldn't get athousand people together, even
if it was spread over all of theEuropean countries.
(06:13):
And so, you know, there weremaybe 10, 20 venues that had to
stop and move online at veryshort notice.
And our exams, which weredesigned 44 years ago, were not
really fit for purpose for theonline environment.
So that was a big catalyst, butto be honest, it had been in
people's minds for some timebefore then.
SPEAKER_04 (06:34):
Yeah, I think you know, one of the things that was
already in people's minds, andin particular because of paper
C, was just that the time thateverybody had to spend doing the
exams.
I can't remember how long paperC eventually got, but at one
stage I think it was sevenhours.
And so that sort of burden wassomething which was just getting
(06:54):
ridiculous.
So that was another a bigfactor.
SPEAKER_01 (06:58):
Yes, I sat paper C when it was six hours in person
with the last, just before itwent down to one language.
And then with it had got down tofive hours, which is still an
acceptable length for sitting inone place doing an exam.
But then the reintroductiononline meant it got split into
two three-hour exams, so back upto six hours.
And clearly this is notsustainable for an education
(07:22):
system in the future.
SPEAKER_05 (07:23):
Well, the exams aren't they're not a test of
endurance.
EQES, let's say, Oh, I've got aTV show, EQ EQE, who dares wins.
That's about that.
Apart from that though, so so doyou want to take us through the
kind of the new structure?
I mean, obviously, we've beenthrough a phase having the
preliminary EQEs and everythingelse.
So what's what's the what's thewhole story now?
SPEAKER_01 (07:45):
So the idea behind the framework now is to make it
a more gradual step through theprofession.
So you have an exam that you canbe eligible for after just one
year in the profession.
That's called paper F, standsfor foundation.
And then after another year, youcan take another set of papers,
M1 and M2, which are meant to beanother layer along the journey.
(08:07):
And then finally, yeah, afterthree years of professional
training, as you had with theprevious set of exams, you can
take the final two exams.
And the the whole pathway isdesigned to start with more
foundational knowledge, movingthrough, building the skills and
building to advising theclients.
So that's the general frameworknow.
SPEAKER_05 (08:28):
Uh oh, I mean, I know that there's always been a
kind of a slight bias as thelanguage requirements have
decreased, it's got easier.
But there's always been it'salways been a bit easier if
you're a native speaker, Ithink, in one of the exam
languages.
Um has that been factored in aswell?
We've got what, 40 countrieswith candidates here?
Are we looking after the wholepan-European profession?
SPEAKER_04 (08:47):
Well, I was gonna say we we still have the
requirement that the papers areonly in English, French, and
German.
And you can use your nativelanguage in the exam.
So there is an allowance forpeople who do not have a mother
tongue of English, French, orGerman.
It's not often used.
I mean, the the most younormally get is uh a script in
(09:10):
one of the uh EPC languages withsuddenly a word in the native
language where they can't workout what the translation is.
But the you know, it there is anallowance, but it's not very
much used.
SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
And can I just add, yes, we do sit the exam in our
native language, but the examcertainly for the last few years
hasn't been written with muchinvolvement from native language
speakers.
And a really positive stepforward in the last year is that
we have now an English member ofthe exam board.
So that's the equivalent of likethe governance board at it at
(09:44):
Pebb, who is um based in UK.
It's Liz Elmhurst who gave herpresentation on one of the new
exams with me.
So, because sometimes actually Ithink we can overthink what's
written in the papers and we cansee more than one meaning, which
was not what was intended by thequestion writers who were
familiar with how it's beentranslated into German and
(10:06):
French as well.
So it is a massive advantage, Ithink, being a native speaker,
but it occasionally has itsquirks.
SPEAKER_05 (10:13):
And you've you've I think both apologized at some
point for being involved in theeducation system, but I think
actually obviously that's notthe correct thing, and we're
delighted that you've done it.
But who else is involved in thedecision making for all of this?
Uh, there's obviously a panel ofpeople who've looked at it, made
it, put in the foundation, putin this kind of evolution of
exams.
Who I'm guessing EPO isinvolved.
(10:33):
Maybe who else is involved?
SPEAKER_04 (10:34):
Basically, um the uh the main thing, the REE, uh the
so that's the the top-levelrules, are decided on by the
administrative council of theEPO.
So actually right at the top.
But to get to that draft of theREE, we had a joint working
(10:54):
group between the EPO and EPI,who did an absolutely tremendous
job.
They were uh you know really,really active on that.
And below that you've got theIPRE.
And although those are decidedby the examination supervisory
board, so they don't have to beseen by the administrative
(11:17):
council, they were all developedat the same time by the same
working group doing that.
Um the only way you ever getthose through all the levels,
and in particular through theadmin council, is basically if
the EPI and EPO agree andbasically say yes, we think this
is good, and then the admincouncil will vote yes.
(11:39):
So there's an awful lot of workcarried out uh by lots of people
to firstly get EPI to agree.
Um, and in particular, we had anextraordinary EPI council
meeting, and I use extraordinaryin every possible sense of the
word, where you know, I think II don't remember anywhere near
(12:00):
as many motions per square inchas there were during that.
So it there was an awful lot ofwork by lots of people, some you
know up there in lights, and alot of people uh whose names you
know are not very well known,but they did an awful lot of
work to get this whole packagetogether and eventually through
the admin council.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
And just to reinforce that, and I think a
lot of people think that the EQEcomes from the EPO, and very
definitely it couldn't happenwithout the EPO supporting it
from a computing andadministrative side, because
they do that function.
But it is definitely an EPO EPIproject with most of the
examination marking done by EPImembers, so European patent
(12:44):
attendance like you, me and andChris Gwillem.
And um, a lot of the examsetting is done also by EPI
members, although the EPO isalso involved in the exam
setting as well.
And just to mention thatextraordinary council meeting,
it was online, it ran over byseveral hours, and I had to
leave because I had to board aplane.
(13:06):
I'd sat at the airport listeningto quite a lot of it, and it and
then just had to had to um as Iwas standing there waiting for
my passport and boarding car tobe checked, I finally decided I
did actually have to drop out ofthat meeting.
But it was a very heatedmeeting.
A lot of questions asked aboutwhy we were implementing the new
EQE system and and what thebenefits to the profession were.
(13:29):
So maybe we could come up, weshould come on to the detail.
SPEAKER_05 (13:32):
I was going to actually, yeah, I was exactly
going to ask next to give us aflavor for the kind of the
content of the different levelsof exam.
SPEAKER_01 (13:39):
So I think the the most important thing is that the
standard is the same at the end.
So the final three-year exam isintended to be the same level
overall as as what we've alwayshad previously.
And actually, we're not allowedto say this because the EPO
don't like it, do they, Chris?
It's really what's happened isall the skills that were tested
and have been tested for decadeshave sort of been thrown up in
(14:03):
the air and scattered back downin a slightly different place.
But they're they are all there,and and candidates are doing the
same sorts of things thatthey've been doing that you did
in the 90s, Gwillam, and I didin the 2000s.
So um hopefully that gives somecomfort.
Did you want to add anything,Chris?
SPEAKER_04 (14:21):
I think the only thing that I might add is that
they have actually modernized itin a sense, in that uh, if you
think about it, there was almostnothing about what happens if
you go to appeal, uh, apart fromin you know the legal paper.
But now there are there's apossibility that you might have
to draft a response to an appealstatement or something like
(14:43):
that.
Uh so it it does cover muchmore, you know, not much more,
but it covers more than uh theprevious uh exams, but only in a
sort of fairly technical sense.
The actual skills that you'regoing to need are exactly the
same.
Um, it's just that you mighthave to apply them in a
different place.
SPEAKER_05 (15:04):
And so those three stages, is it the case that at
each stage uh a review of yourabilities across all the
relevant skills, but more andmore difficult?
Or do they split them up betweenthe different stages?
For example, oppositions.
Did you touch on oppositionthree times, or do you just do
an opposition paper at the end,something like that?
SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
So you do touch on all of the knowledge at all
stages, and the skills are builtin gradually.
And by skills we mean theability to analyze the
information and give advice, butit is across the whole range.
So even in the first paper F,there are some legal questions
which would focus on the sort offundamentals of novelty and
procedure.
(15:42):
But there are also claimanalysis questions, so looking
at some claims, maybe looking ata bit of priority, but it would
all be very short,self-contained information that
you can read and pass quickly,and then the questions are
around novelty and clarity atthat first stage.
Maybe a very basic question oninventive step, but you know,
very basic.
So yes, it's the whole range ateach stage.
(16:05):
Year two, you bring in more umskills, knowledge as well, but
it so and it's difficult becauseand we're still working out how
to best express this and bringthe documentation forwards, is
but the intention is it's thesort of material that people
could handle after two years inthe profession.
So probably more focused onamendment in terms of the
(16:27):
practical skills, but you wouldbe looking at all aspects of
normal team venture step.
And as Chris said, it could bepotentially amendment in
relation to some third-partyobservations or amendment in
relation to an opposition or inan appeal.
So not very limited to the theway it has been in the past.
SPEAKER_05 (16:46):
And in terms of kind of preparing for it, is there is
there was always kind oftraining through the EPO and of
course at the firm level andvarious courses, have there been
changes to the the trainingprogram or the resources
available, or um are we is itstill basically self-driven?
SPEAKER_04 (17:02):
There will still be lots of um resources.
I mean, EPI is already doing umcourse on uh various bits of the
EQE, um, as are lots of otherpeople preparing to do them.
Um so it's all developing uh aswe go along.
The the main problem at themoment for anybody who's trying
(17:24):
to do any preparation is thereis very little material to work
with because there are obviouslyno past papers.
There are example papers around,and there are further, well, you
know, not example, but uh thingsthat would be papers if they
could be.
(17:44):
Um so there there is preparationbeing done, and so people are
working very hard at puttingtogether uh educational
materials.
So on at that level, there's notas much as perhaps anyone would
like.
Uh, but I'm sure it will developvery quickly.
And you know, those people whoare providing courses have
(18:07):
within their organization peoplewho were involved in the whole
thing, and so they will be ableto tailor the courses they are
providing uh to deal with that.
I think the biggest problem maybe for uh people in smaller
firms, smaller where thereprobably would have been no
involvement in the developmentof this.
(18:29):
I think they will probably stillbe able to do very good
education as long as they didjust about the same thing that
they did for the EQE anyway,because as Julia said, the
content is the same, it's justgoing to appear in different
places.
SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
Sorry, can I just add one very important thing
that hasn't changed but came tolight again this year?
Is that there's two things tothink about for the EQEs.
One is registering yourtraining, whether that's
training with a professionalwho's already a qualified EPA,
which is probably 98% ofcandidates, or whether you're
doing that much rarer but stillused route of working directly
(19:07):
for an employer.
You have to register yourtraining.
You then enrol for exams.
We don't talk about in the EQEsystem, it's just semantics, as
we're well aware with in ourprofession.
Words that have an ordinaryEnglish meaning can then be used
in context to have a veryspecific meaning.
You register your training andyou enroll for the exams, and
(19:29):
you need to have registered yourtraining as soon as possible,
and certainly before a cutoffdate, which is a long time
before you actually need tothink about enrolling for the
exam.
SPEAKER_04 (19:41):
Yeah, everybody needs to know that as soon as
they join the profession, theyshould register for the EQE,
even if it's on the day you joinyour first employment, register
for the EQE.
SPEAKER_06 (19:53):
It's always exciting when we get a surprise guest on
the podcast.
Uh and and we've got surpriseguests now.
So Debbie Slater has joined us.
Debbie is uh TIFA council memberand chair of CEPA's education
committee.
Hey Debbie, welcome to thepodcast.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
Yes, patent attorney, understanding member
of the profession, and councilmember, and as you say, chair of
the education committee.
I've been involved with theeducation committee probably for
well over 10 years now, so areasonable length of time.
I have a passion for education,having taken time out of being a
patent attorney to train as ahigh school teacher, to follow
(20:30):
my father's footsteps.
He was a maths and a P teacherin the day.
So when I was a little girl, Iused to line up my teddies and
teach them using a blackboardand a piece of chalk.
SPEAKER_06 (20:42):
So maybe we stop there.
Let's not go too far too fast,too far into charge of memories.
So yeah, welcome to the podcast.
Just to bring up today, we'vetalked we've talked a little bit
about the history.
So what happened previously, whythe changes, we've we've not got
deep into the new structure,which I think is probably the
place to go in a moment.
But I don't know if you wantedto say something about the role
(21:03):
that Education Committee has hadin kind of watching the
development of the EQE and thestuff that you've been involved
in.
SPEAKER_02 (21:10):
Yeah, so I mean, as the name says, the Education
Committee is involved in a lotof things educational.
And we're going through a periodof um change, I think, in
regards to education andtraining, both with the EQEs and
with the IPREC education review.
So what we're trying to do isthe committees to be involved
(21:32):
with both of those and perhapsto bring all the strands
together because they, you know,with not unique probably, but
the profession has these twostrands of education and
training that they need to gothrough, both the Us and the UK
exam.
So I think as a as a committee,what we try to do is provide a
way to provide feedback to thevarious bodies that are involved
(21:56):
in the qualification process andto bring the specificate, to
bring the strands together andencourage people, the wider
membership, to become involvedin this, because I think it's
it's very important to be ableto ensure that people are
involved in education andtraining have the information
and the support that they needfor this, because we do need
(22:16):
support members of theprofession who are involved in
training new entrants to theprofession so that they can they
can help develop the candidatesand the trainees' understanding
of the profession and what theyneed to do to progress their
career.
So I suppose, yeah, we're we'rethere as a sort of central
point, I suppose, and hopefullyto be able to bring things
(22:38):
together and disseminateinformation and facilitate
people to have a say.
SPEAKER_06 (22:46):
We've thought a lot about how the change impact on
candidate students, but maybenot enough on how it impacts on
those that support them and andand help them through their
training.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
I think it I think it's it's a very important
aspect because I I think for alot of people who have been
around the profession and whowould like to support trainees
perhaps feel a bit worried aboutdoing that because they're not
quite sure how to do it.
They themselves will have beentrained, but they maybe want to
be able to do it differently orhave there's a different set of
(23:17):
circumstances.
So it's I think it's a reallyimportant part of this is to
support the trainer.
Yes, definitely.
SPEAKER_06 (23:24):
Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
So, Chris, Julia, if I couldkind of come back to you.
If that's okay, if I continue.
Yeah.
So the thing we've not done yetis to talk too much about the
structure of the new system.
And I know that's going to bequite difficult without the
ability to put up charts uh andtalk through graphics and so on.
And I know there's been somereally good stuff, Julia,
particularly on that.
Could you give could you give usa little overview of of what the
(23:45):
new qualification looks like interms of its structure?
SPEAKER_01 (23:48):
Yes.
So in paper F, this is um uh afully automatically marked
paper.
So it has a series of questionswhich you can answer without
giving a free text um, sorry,you don't need a free text
answer.
So they're not all multiplechoices.
So I'm struggling not to use theword multiple choice, because we
all have horrors, or those of uswho've taught the pre-exam are
(24:10):
not particularly enamoured ofmultiple choice questions as
they've been implemented at somepoints during the the EQE.
So there may be just somestraightforward multiple choice
questions, there may be someother question formats, drag and
drop, other things which arehandled automatically in the
examination system, which iscalled WiseFlow.
And the the same styles ofquestions can be used both for
(24:30):
the legal questions in part oneand then, as I said, for the the
claims analysis questions.
So it's more flexible, themultiple choice, but it's all
going to be markedautomatically.
So the results are available afew weeks after the exam is
actually sapped in March.
Then we move on to the next setof papers, M1 and M2, where part
(24:51):
of the exam will probablycontinue to be automatically
marked, but the second part ofthe examination will be a free
text answer.
So for M1, which is testing theskills, that at the moment is
going to be like a mini paper Bfor those of you familiar with
B, i.e.
a mini amendment paper.
(25:12):
And by mini, what we mean isit'll just have a smaller amount
of information so that all thewords will be fewer, it'll be
simpler technology, and whatyou're actually asked to do will
also be broken down andexplained rather than just sort
of prepare a response.
You'll be given a breakdown ofwhat you're expected to do and
how many marks each section willhave.
(25:34):
Then for M2, which is the legalpaper, in 2026, so that's the
next session, that will be verysimilar to the old style D1.
In fact, it will be the oldstyle D1 paper, which is the
short legal questions and shorttext answers, where you have to
(25:54):
give the basis.
It'll be it will actually beexactly the same exam, minus one
question, and then it willevolve in 2027 and beyond.
And then finally for the thirdyear, M3 and M4.
I'll do M4 first because that'sthe easier of the two.
That will be basically like parttwo of D.
So it'll be a longer legalanalysis question with various
(26:18):
things going on.
You have to break down theinformation, work out what's
gone right, what's gone wrong,what the client's position is,
and then give adviceaccordingly.
The reason I've left M3 till theend is because this is the the
mammoth paper, which has a partA, a part B and a part C.
Although strictly speaking, Ithink we're supposed to call
them part one, two, and three,because we're not meant to refer
(26:41):
to them as the amend thedrafting paper A, i.e.
part A, the amendment paper,i.e.
part B, and the opposition paperpart C.
But effectively that's what itis.
So the first part of the paperyou'll be writing a patent
application, some claims or somepart of a patent application.
The second part you will bedefending some claims that
(27:03):
you're already written, and thensorry, and and in the third part
you will be attacking.
So something like an opposition,but as Chris mentioned, it could
be later in the oppositionstage, it could be part of an
appeal process, or maybe evendealing with some TPOs or
something that've come in.
So there's more flexibility inthe in the the three parts.
SPEAKER_06 (27:23):
Even I understood that, but I've been talking
about it for a long time now, soyou would hope that I would,
wouldn't you?
Chris, do you want to add do youwant to add anything to that
from your perspective?
SPEAKER_04 (27:30):
Well, I think the only thing that we haven't
mentioned is all eggs in onebasket approach.
In theory, this is set up, asJulian said, that you do uh a
graduated approach, you start atyear end of year one and take F,
and end of year two, you take M1and M2, and then the end of year
three, you take M3 and M4.
(27:52):
And you don't have to take themactually like that.
You can you have to take in mostcircumstances F first, but then
you take uh you can take theother ones in order or spread
them out.
But there is the all eggs in onebasket.
You can take all of M1, 2, M4 inone fell swoop and not take
(28:18):
paper F, which sounds a goodidea.
Oh, miss out on the exam.
The big drawback with that isthat if you fail any one of
those papers, you have to uh goback, resit that paper, and also
take paper F as well.
So that's uh how confident areyou feeling sort of thing.
(28:40):
So it's a nice idea, but Iwonder whether anybody will want
to uh follow that route.
I've got that right in my Julia.
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah, yes, more or less.
It's just you might you may ormay not have to resit paper F,
depending on what combination ofthe papers of M1 to M4 you pass
on the first sitting.
And please don't ask me to giveany more information than that
because I've been through it andI'll probably say it incorrectly
because yeah, it's becausethere's a mix of legal and and
practical questions in all ofthe papers, and so not all
(29:10):
combinations give you theexemption, if you like, from
taking F, but some do.
So yeah, and I think the otherthing that's worth mentioning is
well, there's two things.
One, we have finally moved awayfrom a fixed pass mark of
whether it was 70% for thepre-exam or 50%, and the pass
mark will be set between arange, there is a range, um, and
(29:34):
it depends on which paperthey're looking at, and will be
set based on the performance ofthe candidates in that paper.
And by that, I don't just mean abell curve will be looked at,
although that might be obviouslylooked at as a sanity check, but
it's more did the questionsperform how they were expected?
Because obviously the questionscan only be tested on qualified
(29:56):
people.
We can't use guinea pigs whohaven't yet sat the Exam as
before they're actually going tosit the exam three three weeks.
And so there are sometimes,inevitably, in any examination
system, some questions thatdon't quite perform how or
candidates interpret thequestion differently and and
write a different answer.
So this gives the flexibility toset the pass mark based on what
(30:17):
is a reasonable pass rather thanbeing fixed constrained by the
fixed pass mark and then havingto adjust the marking to fit the
pass mark.
So that that's an importantchange.
And then the other importantchange was with M3, where you
have the three skills draftingamendment, and let's call it
opposition, although as I say itit might be slightly broader
(30:39):
than that.
They're tested at the same time.
The three parts of the paper areshorter than the very definitely
shorter than the sum of A to C,as they currently are.
I think it's probably at leasthalf the length of time.
I can't remember exact numbers.
But that's because some of thoseskills have already been tested
in F, M1 and M2, but alsobecause the paper is constructed
(31:01):
in a way that avoids theduplication of testing of the
same skills.
So at the moment, as we know,added subject matter can be a
really important thing that youneed to analyse for amendment
and opposition.
But you don't necessarily needto be analysed on it twice or
assessed on it twice in the sameyear.
Same with novelty andeventually.
Same concepts come up time andtime again in all three papers.
(31:23):
So the idea is to be moreefficient over the three papers
and avoid unnecessaryduplication.
That's not to say that therewon't be some duplication
because some skills are reallycore, but you won't be doing the
same thing multiple times.
Like sometimes it fills withpaper C, Chris, doesn't it?
I've seen you mark those paperC's, and it's like yeah, keeping
the will to live while you'rewriting your fourth inventive
(31:44):
step attack.
Is it a challenge?
SPEAKER_05 (31:47):
So that thank you.
Thanks for that.
That's that's that's reallyclear.
I just think it's just thedifferent constituencies kind of
affected by this.
Obviously, there's these thetrainees themselves.
I think there's lots ofinformation we've stunned for
them there.
There's the firms or industrieskind of handling it.
I think again they're gonna theyhave a feel here for some of the
tips.
And we've touched a little biton the other one, but let's just
talk a bit more about that.
(32:08):
So the majority of peopleactually involved the trainers,
not trainees, probably.
Statistically, that kind ofmakes sense.
What's the biggest message?
What's the biggest changetrainers need to think about,
maybe in addition to the logintraining that you mentioned
already?
SPEAKER_04 (32:22):
Well, I would have thought the main thing to do is
say, as Juga did, we are testingthe same skills.
So if you can do any of the pastpapers and you would have passed
the pay those past papers, youwill have the right skills.
But they're not going to come upexactly as you see them now.
They could come up in manydifferent forms.
(32:43):
So just be, you know, don't besurprised by the unexpected,
because it's almost expected.
SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
And I think what's important as well, there are
some webinars and sessions whichare targeted purely for the
tutors.
And I think sometimes they getoverlooked or trainees attend
them rather than tutors.
And I don't think it'snecessarily a bad thing that
trainees are there, but but thetrainers could also be there.
So, for example, last a fewweeks ago, Liz and I did a a
(33:10):
session on M1 and what to expectin the first edition of M1,
which is coming up in 2026.
Um and as I mentioned, LizElmost is the UK member on the
exam board, and she actually hasresponsibility for M1.
So hearing what she thinks aboutit is really useful.
Obviously, she can't tell youwhat's going to be on the paper.
(33:32):
That would be too nice, wouldn'tit?
But um, she can give us a goodindication of the types of
topics and the level of thetopics that are going to be
examined.
So we had that and that'srecorded, and you can go back
and look at that.
But also, and I think this I I'mgonna say I didn't know that
this was a as big and importantmeeting as it was when I was
tutoring um until I got my othertitle, is there's an EQE tutors
(33:56):
meeting, which is held annually,it just was last week.
It isn't recorded,unfortunately, but I don't think
the UK tutors are as representedas they could be at that
meeting.
It's quite intense, it goes onfor two half days where all of
the exam boards present on theirpaper that happened in March and
answer questions on it.
(34:17):
Um, and this year we hadbreakout sessions and we also
had dedicated sessions on thenew papers.
And in fact, the breakout roomsfor A and B.
No one really wanted to talkabout last year's A and B
because I've only got one moreleft anyway, haven't we?
The conversation was verydefinite about what's happening
and how are these skills goingto be tested next year.
(34:38):
So I think it's I know it's toolate now to say you should have
gone to that meeting last week,but next year it will be even
more important because we'll betalking about the first year of
all of the new modules in 2027.
So I think it could be a reallyengaging meeting to go to.
SPEAKER_02 (34:56):
I think this is where the institute has an
important role to play in termsof disseminating information
about these sorts of things,because you know the the
informals are very wellconnected in terms of being able
to get information out to fellowcandidates.
But as I said not that long ago,you know, supporting the
trainers is also very importantto give them the skills and the
(35:20):
information so that they cansupport their candidates and
provide them with the rightinformation.
So I think that's a big rolethat the Education Committee and
the Institute can play in termsof networking into what's
available and then passing it onto them, and something that you
know we can definitely work at.
So that'll be certainly part ofmy role will be to make sure
that I can try and make surethat um we we do as the same
(35:43):
network in and give people thatinformation.
SPEAKER_06 (35:54):
Because that's one of my jobs on the podcast, is to
try and keep us to a reasonablelength of time.
I think I I'm usually quitesuccessful.
I suspect we could keep ontalking forever about
examinations.
And Debbie, keeping with youmaybe, first off, although I
know that Julia has also had abig, big role to play in this,
can we talk exemptions?
So um so so in the past,obviously people are used to the
fact that you can get exemptionsfrom aspects of the UK
(36:17):
qualifying examinations uh onceyou pass the EQE.
And I know that there's beenlots of talk of thought about
what that might look like in thefuture.
Anything we can share at thismoment in time.
SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
Julia and I have spoken a lot about this.
And in fact, we have someinformal groups of people who
are involved in in both the EQEsand the UK SAM system getting
together to talk about how wecan make this good for people.
I think I think the underlyingprinciple is that we want to
keep the exemptions if we can,and there should be no reason
(36:46):
why you can't, but there has tobe a process and that needs to
be done through formally.
And obviously, IPREG and the PEBare part of that process.
I'm hopeful that we can get anexemption, but I think you know
we do have to go through aprocess, the exams have changed,
and so we need to make sure thatwe are dotting the I's and
crossing the T's.
(37:08):
We now have some mock papersthat have been issued, so we get
a feel for particularly M3,which is the paper that's most
significant for the exemptions.
So at least we can we now havesight of at least one mock
paper, but it's definitely workin progress, but something that
(37:29):
is important.
I mean, Julia, what would youwell?
SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
I think there's I think you've got to distinguish
between two types of exemptions.
There's the exemption frompassing the EQE as a whole, and
there was a recent announcementthat that will not change.
So if a candidate passes thewhole EQE, which it for many UK
candidates is on their firstsitting, but I don't want to put
pressure on candidates, often itmight take two or three
sittings, but UK candidates aregenerally successful in passing
(37:54):
the EQE after one or a smallnumber of attempts.
If in that case, you would thencarry the exemptions, the plan
is that they're going to carryforward.
What is still up for debate andneeds further analysis is the
individual paper-by-paperexemptions that we've grown used
to over the last decade orlonger, where if you had A, you
(38:17):
didn't have to do drafting inthe UK or FD2 as it is now, and
B in Europe meant you didn'thave to do FD3 in the UK system.
Those individual mappings havenot yet been done because we
didn't have the mock M3 to lookat.
We only had very basicinformation about what M3 would
consider.
We now have the mock M3, but weliterally landed last week or
(38:41):
the week before last.
So there's a piece of work to bedone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:44):
So I think the message has to be please don't
stress about it.
There's a process to be gonethrough.
The will is there to keep thoseexemptions.
And I think that's theunderlying message that we have
at present.
But again, Julia or Chris, Idon't know if you've got any
thoughts on that.
SPEAKER_01 (39:00):
Well, and and just to be clear, 2027 is the first
time that anyone can sit M3.
So we've got time on our side.
I know that's not nice forcandidates.
They want this, they want theum, they want to know now, but
it will be done before 2027,July 2027, which is when the
first EQE candidates would becoming through with their passes
(39:22):
in M3.
SPEAKER_02 (39:24):
But it's certainly on the radar and it's certainly
been considered.
It's it's not something that'sbeen put on the back burder.
But as Julia said, you know, atthe moment the status quo is is
happening.
So please be assured that youknow it's something that's been
worked on and looked at.
SPEAKER_06 (39:41):
Thanks for that update.
So I'm gonna draw us to a closenow, unless there are any kind
of final remarks.
SPEAKER_01 (39:47):
Well, the only other thing that comes up time and
time again, Lee, is thetransition provisions because
you talked about the link to theUK system, but what about the
people who are halfway throughthe old system?
And there, all I can say is it'squite a generous system of
allowing you to carry throughyour passes, but only your
passes are not compensable,fail, so marks between 45 to 50
(40:08):
through to the new system and uhavoiding taking um corresponding
papers in the new system.
So the one thing I think isworth mentioning, as it was
mentioned in the EQE Tuesday'smeeting, it is quite a generous
system, but it's once you startclaiming the exemptions, it it's
five years, it doesn't lastforever.
So it's not going to be that ifyou took and passed paper C in I
(40:30):
don't know, 2020, it's stillgoing to be valid in 2025, in
35.
So, you know, you you do need tocrack on and get qualified.
SPEAKER_06 (40:40):
Yeah, understood.
I thanks all.
If you've been on the podcastbefore you've listened to the
podcast, you will know that wealways try and end with some
kind of tangential closer whereI surprise Gwillam with a
question and then we surpriseyou with it as well.
So, Gillam, I've got one.
Um I'm gonna I I wanted to stickwith the education theme and
qualifications or examinations.
So I would like you to sharewith me, us, if you will, the
(41:04):
examination or qualificationthat you are most proud of.
What gives you the greatestpride in your life?
But um, try and stay away fromthe normal kind of
run-on-the-mill academic stuffthat you can.
SPEAKER_05 (41:14):
Oh, it's got a fire safety certificate.
I had the most brilliant timeafternoon training when I was at
I didn't go on the show, butyears and years ago, to be one
of the fire wardens, and we gotto fire fire extinguishers into
big things of water covered inpetrol, and there's like flames
everywhere.
And I got my certificate forthat, and uh it's the only one I
had on the wall.
(41:36):
That's my answer.
Have you ever had a clearfunnel?
No, I mean you've got to use theright, I mean you've got to sit
there for quite longdeliberately which extinguisher
to use.
I remember that much, but Iforget the answer, just to be
careful.
Yeah.
So no, I I wouldn't, youwouldn't want you wouldn't want
me near a fire after all that.
SPEAKER_06 (41:52):
Chris, how about you?
You must have a long list ofaccomplishments.
What's your what's yourstandout?
SPEAKER_04 (41:56):
Oh my I think my my favorite one, not necessarily
standout, is uh I qualified as auh what's it called, passenger
vehicle driver, so that I cantake patients from a hospital uh
on trips.
Um so I had to do a you know arather extensive driving test on
a very big van, and I muchenjoyed that.
(42:18):
And I like the yeah, it's areally good thing to do.
The old PSP is a very goodthing.
It's not quite that's apassenger service vehicle, but
yeah, because I I'm not allowedto charge people for my
services.
SPEAKER_01 (42:31):
Well, I've still started, and it's actually
nothing that I can claim creditfor if I'm honest.
It's but it's now my childrenare going through the process of
learning to drive.
The the difference between thelicense they get and the license
I got just before the ruleschanged back in the the 90s is
quite incredible.
I can drive a 310 lorryaccording to my license.
(42:52):
Would you want me to do that?
Hell no.
And more, I think it's a lorrywith a trailer.
There's no way I could drivethat.
Not even if I needed to go tothe tip multiple times, Lee,
like you did.
And I'm not sure they'd believeyou if you turn up with a lorry
of that size that you'veactually hired it, have they?
SPEAKER_06 (43:10):
Yeah, that recognise that entirely.
Yeah, have that conversationwith my children.
SPEAKER_02 (43:14):
Well, I'll I'll continue on that theme, I think.
It took me five goes to get mydriving license.
I tried twice when I was workingat the EPO in The Hague and
failed both times.
Sorry, no, I took it three timesand failed in Hague.
Then I decided to go back to theUK and do one of these quick
courses, you know, and I failedagain and then and then passed
(43:38):
on the retail.
I was really pleased that I'dgot it because I was just about
to start a new job as anin-house patent manager for
Vickers and I had a company car.
So I needed to be able to driveto have the company car.
So the first time I'd everdriven a car on my own was when
I picked up my rover from theBritish Leyland garage in crew,
(44:00):
and I managed to crash it threedays later.
Apparently, the quickest claimon an insurer at figures at the
time between starting work.
And in fact, I hadn't evenstarted work.
I just so yeah, yeah.
Passing my driving test anywaywas quite an accomplishment for
(44:24):
me.
SPEAKER_05 (44:25):
So thank you, Debbie, and everyone.
Um now it's my turn to ask Lee.
I'm gonna can I guess firstthough, Lee?
You've got you'll have an you'veI know you always have an answer
before you put your questions inbecause that's your that's your
cheat.
But um, I'm gonna is it aboutfish?
No.
What is what is your what isyour favourite surprise
qualification, Lee?
SPEAKER_06 (44:44):
First of all, let me just make a comment, if I may,
and that's that it wasinteresting that you all talked
about things that are bothknowledge and competence based.
So that that was just aninteresting observation I'll
I'll take from that.
And mine is the same, it's thevery first qualification I got
out outside of, I don't know,maybe a certificate you might
have got at first school ormiddle school back in the day
when that's what they werecalled.
Uh so when I was 15, so beforeI'd taken any qualifications at
(45:06):
school, I qualified as afootball referee.
Totally randomly, I just thoughtit'd be an interesting thing to
do.
Went along to the upstairs of apub, which was where the the
course was held for about 10, 12weeks, did a few practical
sessions running aroundwhistling and stuff like that.
Uh, qualified as a footballreferee, did it a couple of
times, terrified me, the abusethat I got, never did it again.
SPEAKER_05 (45:25):
I've seen a local game um just in the park, and
somebody just punched thereferee, knocked him flat.
SPEAKER_06 (45:31):
It looks, yeah, that was bravely.
That was brave.
Yeah, it was I don't think I hadany idea what I was having for
it, just when I was, oh, thisseems like a good idea.
SPEAKER_01 (45:38):
It wasn't it's a nice little urner for teenagers
when my kids were growing up.
The um teenagers were doing it.
But I think if you're a teenagerdoing younger children, then
it's perhaps not so abusive.
Well, yeah, we try not to be.
SPEAKER_06 (45:51):
I've run, I've run I I have so many children,
particularly boys.
I spent 25 plus years runningthe line.
So I did use my skills, but in alinesman capacity, and that was
scary enough.
And even with young children,parents can be terrifying.
So I think we're gonna have todraw it to a conclusion there,
Gillem.
I I need to remember what weused to do in the old days when
(46:12):
we were doing podcastspreviously, and that's to say,
if you've listened to this andfound it as enjoyable hearing it
as we have uh recording it, thenleave us a little review
somewhere, and that'll enablepeople to find us.
Chris, Julia, Debbie, thank youso much for joining us.
And Gwillem, I will see you onthe next one.
SPEAKER_02 (46:26):
Bye bye, everybody.
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