Adam McOmber, co chair of the VCFA MFA in Writing program, joins Erin LaRosa, author and romance workshop leader, and Spiro Skentzos, screenwriter and producer, to discuss the next chapter of the VCFA Writers’ Conference as it moves to CalArts in Los Angeles. The conversation explores creative community, the evolution of romance and screenwriting, storytelling in the age of AI, artistic risk taking, and why human connection remains at the center of the creative process.
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Time Stamps:
2:14 Building Creative Community
4:02 Why the Conference Moved to Los Angeles
6:08 Bringing Genre Fiction Into Literary Spaces
8:22 Romance Writing and Story Structure
11:14 Why Romance Is Often Misunderstood
14:23 The Rise of Sports Romance
17:02 Vulnerability and Emotional Truth in Romance
20:02 Representation and Inclusivity in Publishing
22:41 Writing to Market vs Writing Your Passion
25:10 Building Authentic Characters in Romance
27:08 Why Romance Writers Should Be Unapologetically Creative
29:23 The First 15 Pages of a Screenplay
32:11 Inside the TV Writers’ Room
34:37 Streaming, AI, and Modern Storytelling
38:12 Writing From Lived Experience
41:05 Thinking Visually for the Screen
43:14 Creativity, Collaboration, and Ownership
46:10 Why Intellectual Property Matters
48:02 Pushing Storytelling Forward
49:03 A New Chapter for VCFA Writers’ Conference
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
What makes the conference uniqueis the same thing that makes
VCFASMFAS unique, which is again, I'm going to say this
again, but community meeting people, not having that kind of
cutthroat environment, you know,where people are trying to one
up one another, but in fact where people are coming together
(00:22):
in creative friendship and supporting each other.
Welcome to Unapologetically Created, a podcast from the
Vermont College of Fine Arts where we celebrate bold
artistry, transformative creativity, and the audacious
(00:45):
voices shaping the future of thearts.
I'm your host, Andrew Ram Sammy,and in this series, we dive into
honest, inspiring conversations with artists who are pushing
boundaries and redefining what it means to create work that
resonates and endures. Normally, all of our
(01:06):
conversations are recorded during our residencies, those
moments where we gather our community, our creatives, and
all of our lives intersecting together in one place.
But today's episode is going to be a little bit different.
This is actually going to be something really special because
today we're not just reflecting on creativity, we're announcing
(01:26):
a new major chapter. For over 30 years, VCFA has
always held the Post Grad Writers Conference.
But now we're ready to turn a new page.
For the first time in its history, the Vermont College of
Fine Arts Writers Conference is moving West and coming home to
our new residency at Cal Arts. It's going to be a new place.
(01:48):
It's going to be a new space, it's going to have new energy,
and it's going to be a new chapter.
And with that transition also comes new leadership.
For over 3 decades, an extraordinary visionary and
steward has LED our program. And that has been Ellen Lesser,
who helped build this conferenceinto what it is today and to
whom we celebrated at our 30th anniversary last year.
(02:12):
But now we're also welcoming a new voice, a new perspective,
and a new era. Adam Mccomber is a writer, a
teacher, and Co chair of our VCF, AM, FA and Writing program,
and he's stepping in as the new conference director.
So today we'll talk with Adam about what will remain at the
heart of the conference and whatnew possibilities are emerging.
(02:35):
And later in the show, we'll be joined by Aaron Larosa and Spiro
Skensos, who will be leading workshops in romance writing and
screen writing respectively, 2 forms that are rapidly evolving
in today's creative landscape. So with that, let's begin.
Adam, welcome to Unapologetically Creative.
Thanks, Andrew. It's great to be here.
(02:57):
So Adam, the the VCFA Writers Conference, which we're which is
now the new name, but it used tobe known as the Post Grad
Writers Conference, has lived inVermont for over 30 years.
What does it mean to you now, leading it into this next
chapter at Calarts? So I think it's, it's very
exciting to me that we are moving now to Calarts and to Los
(03:21):
Angeles. We are opening the Writers
Conference up in a variety of ways, bringing new energy.
I mean, it's always, it's been agreat thing, right?
A great creator of community of literary friendships.
But now I think, you know, we'reconnecting it to, to industry
and thinking about, you know, LApublishing, LA screen writing,
(03:45):
all kinds of things. So we're we're infusing it with,
with new life, moving it to the West Coast.
And I'm moving in it to the WestCoast.
Adam, how are you going to hold space and legacy for what Ellen
built, but also making space forwhat you hope will become your
own vision for the conference? Yeah, I think holding space, I
mean, I think of a lot about community when I think about
(04:08):
writers conferences. These are people coming from all
over. They might not know any writers
in their own community, so they are making literary friendships.
I always think about the conceptof literary friendship and how
important that is to to writers just in terms of their creative
life, right. So this is a place where people
(04:30):
are going to come together, they're going to meet, they're
going to get to talk about craftissues, they're going to get to
learn about industry. But it's, you know, it's
continuing that legacy of writers coming together, writers
meeting each other, writers supporting each other and really
feeding each other creatively too.
(04:50):
So it creates this, this energy.We're very excited to carry that
over. So what are going to be some of
the core elements of the conference that you feel must
remain unchanged no matter whereit takes place, whether it was
going to be in Vermont or now it's going to be in California?
Yeah. So the workshop is central.
Each day of the conference thereis a 2 hour workshop.
(05:12):
There's small workshops, six person workshops with MFA level
faculty. So you're getting an MFA level
education in this space and and you know, people are looking at
your writing and talking about your writing.
You also, this is something carried over from the post grad.
(05:33):
You'll also get an hour long meeting with your faculty member
to talk about your work and where your work is going.
And, and you know, again, thinking about industry,
thinking about publishing with that, with that faculty member
who has a great deal of experience.
So I think that kind of one-on-one and also small group,
small group workshop is significant and something that I
(05:55):
want to maintain as well as all the lively panels that have
always taken place where again, you're learning about craft,
you're learning about the publishing industry, those kinds
of things. All of that will remain the
same. So for someone who's never
attended a conference, what makes the VCFA Writers
(06:16):
Conference unique compared to other conferences that might be
out there? O What I would say is what makes
the conference unique is the same thing that makes VCFAS MFA
unique, which is again, I'm going to say this again, but
community meeting people, not having that kind of cutthroat
(06:36):
environment, you know, where people are trying to one up one
another, but in fact where people are coming together in
creative friendship and supporting each other.
So I am super invested in creating a joyful creative
environment that really feels like a celebration of the art
that we are making as well as, you know, a way of furthering,
(06:59):
you know, your craft and that sort of thing.
But yeah, the celebration, the joy, the, the, the artistic
friendship coming together. So we've dropped the official
title of the conference being the Post Grad Writers Conference
and you've mentioned VCF as MFA writing program which you are Co
chair of. What are the differences now
(07:21):
between going to VCFA and and doing the MFA versus doing this
week long writers conference? And why did you drop the post
grad title from the conference and now just calling it the VCFA
Writers Conference? So in terms of the difference
between the MFA and the post, the writers conference, it's
(07:43):
going to be a similar feeling. There's going to be it's, it's
going to be a rigorous experience where you get lots of
good feedback on your writing, where you think again about
publishing. So it there's a lot of
similarity between the two in terms of dropping the post grad,
(08:04):
the post grad kind of presumed acertain level of writer perhaps.
But to be honest, I think all ofus are learning all the time as
writers. Every time I start a new novel
project, I feel like I'm relearning the whole thing all
over again. And I like talking to writers of
(08:24):
all different, you know, levels.Maybe somebody has kind of been
writing on their own but hasn't really gotten to be in a formal
workshop yet. Or maybe somebody's been doing
workshops for a while and enjoysthat environment.
I think everybody can come together and that creates a
certain energy and electricity. You know, I've run over the
(08:44):
years lots of private workshops where that has happened and
everybody, all, everybody lifts each other up in a way, right?
So the conversation is is complex and engaging and we can
have all levels of writers in the rooms and it could be a lot
of fun. In an oversimplified way, the
way that I've described the the Post Grad Writers Conference and
(09:05):
now the Writers Conference compared to our, our MFA program
is that the writers conference is, this is a similar
experience, but it's without thehigh stakes, right?
Because obviously you're walkingaway with a, with a degree at
the end of two years. So is the Is the Writers
Conference a good entry point tocome into VCFA if someone's not
(09:26):
ready to fully commit to going into an MFA?
Definitely, if you would like toknow what kind of things take
place in an MFA workshop or talkto some MFA faculty, which you
know, a number of our of the people who are teaching for the
Writers Conference are also MFA faculty.
It's a great place, right? So it is a great place to start
(09:48):
to learn about what that feels like, how it professionalizes
your writing, how it polishes your writing to be in that kind
of room, not only with the faculty, but with peers who who
are again, interested in discussing, you know, your your
writing, which many of us, you know, we don't have a lot of
like literary friends beyond these kinds of spaces.
(10:09):
So the MFA provides that, as does the Writers Conference.
So with the move to Cal Arts andto Los Angeles, what new
opportunities do you hope that this is going to open up for
writers, for faculty and for programming and, and how do you
think that's going to actually deepen now being in in LA?
Yeah. So for me, I'm again thinking
(10:31):
about industry and our connection to agents, to
publishers, to screen writing, you know, to to the Los Angeles
film community. We are working to bring all of
that into the conference so thatyou are, you know, talking to
people that are actively workingin the in the industry.
(10:53):
So I think that the Los Angeles arts community, it's vibrant,
it's interesting, you know, it's, it's on the pulse of
everything. So opening the doors and
bringing that conversation into the writers conference is super
important to me. And and that, you know, it's
very different than being in Vermont, you know, which is also
a beautiful place, but this is going to be a different and, and
(11:17):
again, more kind of industry focused space.
And I know that one of your visions for the conference is
actually expanding new voices, new genres, adding
interdisciplinary elements to tothis conference.
What are you excited about bringing to the conference that
we haven't been able to do before?
Yeah. So traditionally the conference
(11:38):
has been, you know, the three primary genres, fiction,
creative nonfiction and poetry. We are opening that up.
We are very excited about our romance novel workshop, thinking
about things like the popularityof heated rivalry.
And, you know, I just think it'sgoing to be so much fun to bring
(11:58):
that energy in. And, and we have great faculty
for that as well. We're also thinking in terms of
upmarket fiction, so popular fiction as well as literary
fiction. And then also, you know,
obviously this is Los Angeles. We're thinking about writing for
the screen, both for television and for film, but bringing all
of those elements into the mix and just talking about
(12:21):
interdisciplinary. I know so many writers who are,
you know, excited about, oh, maybe my project could one day
become a screenplay, or maybe I'd like to try writing a
screenplay, or maybe I'd like towrite something kind of like
heated rivalry. You know, we can have that kind
of like energy moving back and forth in these spaces because,
(12:41):
you know, not only will we have workshops and panels, but we'll
have gathering, evening gatherings where where people
can can talk and meet and perhaps.
Collaborate. So, Adam, we're in a time where
the writing landscape is is shifting and it's shifting
pretty dramatically, right, WithAI disruptions and publishing,
(13:01):
changing of, of readers habits. The stuff that's happening when
the stuff does crossover into like TV and and film.
How do you see the conference responding to this moment?
Yeah, I, I mean, I think for us writers, because certainly AI is
looming large, but for me craft is still at the center.
(13:25):
So being in a workshop, learninghow to write a scene, how to put
concrete details in, so we get like a three-dimensional vision
of that world, how to create characters that are powerful
that the reader or viewer will care about.
That is not something that AI can do, at least at this point,
(13:50):
Andrew. But it, it, it is, it is
something that we as humans withhearts, with souls can learn how
to do better, right? And that is to me, what the
conference is about. So it's a very, very human
thing. Here we are humans making, you
know, our passionate art, our projects.
(14:12):
And and that is what I'm invested in making come to life.
So AI exists, yes, but it's not,you know, the conference is, is
a living breathing human space of makers.
What does it mean to be able to createspace for writers not just
(14:32):
to improve their craft, but alsoto sustain themselves creatively
given everything that's going onin the world right now, Right.
And, and we're doing this in a world in a, in a time, in a
period of significant kind of craziness.
Yeah. How do writers do that?
How do they createspace for themselves?
And is the conference and and these workshops one of those
(14:55):
ways to Createspace for yourself?
Yeah, I think, I mean, what cameto mind when you asked that
question was the diversity in the space, bringing a wide range
of experiences, a wide range of voices together and allowing
those people to mix and talk andthink together and understand
(15:18):
each other's perspectives. I think that's so helpful in
times like these. And that is I'm very much
invested both from the faculty side and from the participant
side in bringing those diverse voices in.
I also just think giving oneselfspace to create time to create.
(15:40):
We are going to have sessions where, you know, you'll be able
to just sit, meditate, think about what it is that you're,
you know, you've learned in the morning panel and and bring that
to your writing and just not have your phone beside you, you
know, not be doom scrolling these kinds of things.
So creating that I think will give people this kind of breath
(16:01):
of fresh air that they hope, I hope they can then carry with
them back into their own home writing spaces.
And Adam, you're a writer yourself.
Some of your work is kind of crazy in of itself.
You know, vampires. I mean, a lot of things that
don't necessarily show up in kind of traditional spaces.
(16:23):
How does your own creative practice shape how you approach
actually directing this conference with that diverse
background? Absolutely.
So I think that's where that kind of interest in upmarket
fiction, in romance, in science fiction, in horror and fantasy
comes in. I know that when I did my MFA
(16:43):
back in the day, it was all kitchen sink realism, right?
It was about divorces, the deathof a parent, that kind of thing.
That would, that was what the fiction was, right?
So there was no element of the fantastic, of the romantic,
those kinds of things. Those were, you know, the
popular genres were kind of shunned, right?
(17:04):
But my instinct has always been that we all started as readers
because we were reading things like science fiction, like, you
know, horror, like fantasy, and that made us fall in love with
fiction, right? So those things should not be
separated out from either the MFA or a writing conference.
(17:25):
They should be invited in and and built right.
Again, I think all of the same rules apply in terms of craft.
They apply to to this kind of popular writing as well.
So that's that's my full MO is bringing the popular, you know,
to to the literary spaces and saying these things are not
(17:47):
different. So if someone were to receive
the invitation, what do you actually hope that they walk
away with then? Not just as writers, but as as
as human beings. Oh, gosh, I, I mean, I hope that
someone who attends the conference again feels that
sense of joy that we are bringing to it.
(18:10):
And as artists, we have to feel energized.
We have to believe in our self, believe in our projects that
we're working on, have people totalk about those projects with
who are also artists and are, you know, kind of embedded in
their own projects. So that's what I hope people
carry away from the conference is energy that will push them
(18:32):
forward. Maybe they'll want to come back
again because they got that great energy.
You know that those kinds of things, like every time we go to
residency for the NFA, for instance, I feel re energized
and reactivated and is that samesense that I want, that's why I
want people to carry away from our writers conference.
Not only will you be energized, you also be drained in a way
(18:55):
that I think I, I don't know. We've, we've never done it in
this, in this form, in this fashion before.
So I'm really interested in seeing what people walk away
with, but certainly that, that energy, but also that those
moments of catharsis, right where you just go.
This is the reason why that I'm doing this.
This is, this is the sacrifice, right?
(19:15):
In terms of time or resources orwhatever it might be to come to
a place in a space to be able to, to do that.
And Adam, with that, our podcastis called Unapologetically
Creative. What does that phrase mean to
you personally, especially in the context of writing today?
Yeah, I love that. Unapologetically creative.
(19:38):
It means many things to me. But I was thinking about this
recently where sometimes as an artist, you just feel you can
start to feel bad. You can start to feel
downtrodden, like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe I shouldn't.
This is not the right field for me.
Or maybe I'm writing the wrong thing.
(19:58):
Or maybe, you know, I should. I should.
I don't know, reach in some other way, but I, I feel like
again, that energy, you have to get that energy back and that
belief in yourself and being unapologetically creative,
telling the story that you want to tell, that you need to tell
and believing, you know that there is the audience that will
(20:20):
find it out there. That's what unapologetically
creative means to me. So I'm not going to apologize to
anyone. I'm not going to apologize to
myself or or allow myself to kind of feel pushed over by
various, you know, systems of publishing.
Yeah. So just putting the energy out
there doing the thing you want to do.
And again, I hope the conferenceis is a place that will help
(20:43):
people do that. And if someone's on the fence
about attending or applying, what would you say to them?
I would say write to us. I would be happy to talk to you.
I think again, I am planning a conference that I would want to
attend and I'm filling it with faculty members who I just feel
(21:06):
like have a great vibe and will again, uplift you.
And we're filling it with participants that are the same.
So yeah, feel free to reach out to us if you want to talk.
Adam, thank you and and welcome to this new and exciting chapter
with you as Program Director of the VCFA Writers Conference.
Thanks, Andrew. And now we're joined by Aaron
Larosa, author, editor, and one of the most exciting voices
(21:29):
working in romance today. Aaron lives at the intersection
of storytelling, culture, and emotional truth, hoping to shape
a genre that's not only exploding in popularity, but
also evolving in very powerful and necessary ways.
And Aaron's going to be a workshop leader at the VCFA
Writers Conference, where she's going to bring a deep
understanding of what makes romance resonate on the page
(21:51):
with readers, while pushing writers to think about going
beyond just the conventions and into something even more
authentic, inclusive, and bold. Aaron, welcome to
Unapologetically Creative. Thank you so much.
That was such a wonderful introduction and now I want to
sign up for my own workshop, so thank you.
Speaking of, let's let's start with the workshop and then we'll
get into your your work and whatyou do already.
(22:13):
But what can attendees expect from your session on romance
writing and what are they going to walk into and what are they
going to walk out with? Yeah, I'm really excited to host
this. You know, I actually used to
teach writing at USC, where I got my masters.
And so being able to teach specifically about romance shows
(22:34):
how far I've come since graduating.
You know, when I was in college,the idea of even writing romance
was so taboo. And it was really about fiction
with a capital F. So I'm very excited to just talk
about a genre that I love and have been embraced by.
(22:55):
But for this workshop in particular, and I think because
of my teaching background and also because I am a Capricorn in
type, AI really want students toleave feeling like they are
leaving with pages, you know, leaving with work that they can
continue to grow and improve on.And actually get to that stage
(23:17):
of potentially publishing their work.
So we will go over, you know, romance structure because there
are certain things that happen in romance novels similar to
what might happen in a mystery novel or a crime novel, where
there are certain elements to a romance novel that you have to
hit. And structurally going over what
(23:37):
those pillars are will be part of the class so that you not
only leave with a template to follow, but you leave really
with the instructions of how to finish your book and how to
start it. For example, all romance novels
have a good meet cute. Do you know what that is,
Andrew? No.
What is that? A meet cute is when our leads
(23:58):
meet for the first time. And so it can be something, you
know, as simple as they bump into each other at a coffee shop
and someone spills coffee on theother one.
But for me, I like to kind of have myself and writers who I
talk to push the envelope on what those meetings mean and how
(24:18):
they shape the characters for the rest of their journey.
So we'll talk about things like the meet cute.
We'll talk about the second act where, you know, their love is
super heightened, but there has to be something that takes them
down a peg. We'll talk about that guaranteed
happily ever after. That's something that happens in
all romance novels. But yeah, so we'll be giving
(24:39):
students the structure they needto write these, but also writing
pages during class, workshoppingthose pages out loud and really
talking three things like voice.You know, what kind of topics
are off limits or not off limitsin romance.
I think one of the great things that has happened over the years
is that the genre has changed significantly.
(25:01):
So these are not just stories that I think have previously
been thought of as fluff or sortof like, not a lot of substance
to them. The romance novels I write and
the romance novels I love to read are full of complicated
characters and issues and topicsand so really opening up
(25:22):
students minds to what this genre can bring and what it can
mean for their writing. Well, my meat cute.
I already have it in my head where it would happen and it
would happen at a barbecue jointwhere, you know, I mean, the
cutting a brisket, you can't getany more sexy than that.
(25:42):
And maybe something something happens there.
Well let me tell you something, I just was lucky enough to read
an advance copy of Tia Williams new book and there is actually a
sexy grill master who has like aBBQ truck.
So I think that book might be for you, Andrew.
Oh I'm ready, getting recommendations of what I should
be reading. That's right.
(26:03):
Well, I mean, you kind of mentioned it before.
Romance seems to be misunderstood despite the fact
that literally the publishing industry exists on romance,
right? So what do people continually
get wrong about romance? Yeah, You know, I'm glad you
brought that up. I actually started something
(26:23):
here in Burbank, where I live, called the Burbank Book
Festival. And last year we had a whole
panel around, you know, why romance is misunderstood and how
it's not just a phase. Because I think right now,
especially with the uptick in genres like romanticy or sports
romance, there are a lot of kindof think piece articles or hit
(26:46):
articles coming out saying like,wow, romance, it's really a
genre we should all be reading it.
Like, isn't this cool? And you know, romance has been
around for, like you said, decades and decades and decades.
And so this is a genre that not only people love, but has
supported the publishing industry because women buy books
(27:07):
in bulk in a way that men don't.And the thing about romance that
I think gets misunderstood is like, really, these are stories
that more often than not center women.
And they center women's desires,women's passions, you know,
their dreams, their goals. And so these are really women's
(27:29):
stories. And I think the thing that I
love about them is that they're extremely empowering.
They do not have to come at the cost of, of women suffering to
be to be clear about it. I think the nice thing about
romance is that you know that nomatter what your lead is put
(27:50):
through in the end, everything is going to turn out OK for
them, which I think is what we all want.
But really, I think the reason that romance is often dismissed
is because of the patriarchy. I'm sorry, Andrew, no offense,
but you know. These are none, none taken.
OK, great. These are, you know, really
(28:10):
stories that center women and center women who have dreams and
goals and desires. And I think that is so important
and so meaningful. And that's that's really what
the genre is about. And you mentioned it earlier,
but sports romance and sports romance meets, you know, gay
lovers and heated rivalry. Yeah.
(28:31):
It's pushed the genre into a newterritory.
And it's based on a book that came out of.
Rachel Reed series. Yeah.
Yeah, out of Canada. What's happening right now?
Why? Why is there such an explosion
in the romance space between books, adaptations, and then a
fandom that's come as a result of it?
Yeah, You know, I actually, I have a sub stack and I wrote
(28:52):
about, you know, what sports romance is doing to our brains
right now and why we're so drawnto it.
And I do think there are ways toanalyze, you know, why we are so
drawn to sports romance in particular.
And I think one of them is that,you know, this is a story that
takes place in a in a contained environment, right?
(29:14):
In the example of heated rivalry.
You know, this is a lot of timestaking place within a hockey
team, on a rink, in a locker room.
Like, you know, the world, you know what you're getting into.
And because of that, the stakes actually get a bit heightened
because you do know that world, you know that these two men,
it's almost like a Romeo and Juliet situation where it's like
(29:36):
they cannot be together because of the complications that exist
in the sports world around sexuality.
And, you know, needing to present as straight and
masculine and really challengingthose ideals of masculinity is
something that is not super embraced.
(29:57):
And so I think with sports romance, part of the explosion
is that you get to enter into this really contained world and
universe and be part of that. But also the emotions are so
heightened. You know, careers could end,
lives could end, That kind of sort of it.
(30:18):
It takes it beyond simply like, oh, will they be together or
will they not be together? It really adds to the plot and
all of those takes. And I think the take away we can
use as writers is like, OK, if this is really scratching an
itch for people, but I don't. I don't care about sports
personally, and no offense to those who do.
(30:39):
My husband loves basketball. I don't judge him.
He loves it and so. But what can we take away?
Like me, for example, I'm not going to write a sports romance,
but maybe I need to think about other scenarios where there are
contained worlds where the emotions are really heightened
and the stakes are high in a waythat is not, you know, people
are not going to die in this world, but their lives could be
(31:03):
ruined. Their careers could be at stake.
And so I think we're craving some of that kind of soft core
drama that comes from a thing like heated rivalry.
But also heated rivalry is, I mean, I think I've watched the
show. I I would have to say over 10
times. I just keep it on in the
background. And so there's something so
(31:24):
lovely about these people reallyrisking everything for their
love of each other. And that's, that's part of what
romance is too, is really, you know, tapping into this again,
heightened kind of sense of love.
How has that show been able to empower audiences to think about
(31:44):
intimacy and emotional truth in a way that, say, other genres
really can't? Well, you know, I know that in
speaking to my gay male friends,for example, like this has been
really amazing for them to see come to life.
You know, the way that I found out about the series was from my
friend Tom, who said, hey, this book, like, I love it.
(32:07):
It's so good. You have to read it.
And I was like, I'm not a sportsball person.
I'm not reading this like hockeyromance.
No, thank you. But then when I saw the trailer
come out, I was like, oh, this has very attractive people.
And actually it looks more like a romance that I know and love.
So maybe I'm going to watch this, but I know like for for my
gay male friends, like this has been opening a door in terms of
(32:31):
what the romance genre can be and can offer.
And I know for my female friends, like it's been
extremely empowering to watch a show where men can be vulnerable
and men can open up about their feelings.
And that's not something you always see on TV or in movies.
And so I think part of the appeal of this show is that
(32:54):
ability to be vulnerable as a man.
And I do hope that that's one ofthe key takeaways, you know, in
the types of content that we're consuming is that it's actually
very attractive when men can reveal their feelings and
emotions. And that's part of what the
fantasy of a book boyfriend is in romance too, is like a
(33:15):
version of a guy who is actuallytapped into their feelings and
willing to talk about them. So I think that's part of the
itch that's being scratched. And Speaking of that, the image
has always been around romance of Fabio on a horse, but now the
genre is being pushed right in terms of representation and
(33:35):
identity and who gets to be at the center of love stories.
What is exciting you most about the genre right now?
You know, I think publishing as a whole has so much work to do
in terms of representation of all kinds.
The nice thing about romance is that I feel like I see that
(33:57):
shifting slightly faster than other parts of the publishing
industry. And I say slightly faster
because there's still so much work that needs to be done
around representation and inclusivity in books and the
authors who are choosing to publish.
But, you know, romance and the romance community, I think,
actively seeks out just stories about people that maybe they
(34:21):
haven't read about before. Like, I remember, you know,
really in a meaningful way. Helen Wong's series.
And she has written a series of books that feature leads who are
autistic. And that was one of the first
times where he really saw autismcentered in a really meaningful
way that showed that, you know, autism could be part of your
(34:44):
life but doesn't define your entire life.
And I think that kind of representation is meaningful.
You know, when we see that, it changes and shifts how we might
think about someone who's different from us.
And so, you know, that's been a lovely thing to see as an author
and as a reader. Just the ability to walk into a
store and and be able to see allthese different kinds of stories
(35:06):
being told I think is wonderful.So now with things like heated
rivalry, there's a a real big push to go commercial and
mainstream. Is there anything that's going
to be risked in trying to push those things to be commercial
and mainstream or there is therestill the opportunity for more
kind of individualized, bespoke romance work that writers can
(35:30):
really focus on? Yeah.
I mean, I think as a writer, youknow, there is this balance of
like, am I writing to market? Am I writing my passion project?
And so there has to be a balance.
I think if you want to be traditionally published, right,
you do have to look at the market and say what's selling,
what are people interested in? What are readers wanting to see
(35:51):
right now? So for example, I'm seeing a
real trend around cozy romance and sort of like romance that is
not super dark. People have kind of shifted, I
think, because of the times we're currently living.
And we all just need a break. And I think that's part of why
romanticity took off, too. It's like, yeah, take me away
from this world and send me to adifferent 1.
(36:14):
And so in terms of the risk, youknow, I think there's always
going to be room within publishing for things that are
breakouts or feel really different and new.
I just read this great book called Die for Me, and the cover
is so gorgeous. It almost looks like, kind of
like I thought it was actually about a vampire, but it turns
(36:38):
out to be about a male succubus.And it was one of the most
unique, interesting books I've read maybe ever in terms of the
writing style, in terms of the subject.
And you could really feel that this author was just like, you
know what, I am going to write what I want to see, and they
wrote it. And you can feel that in the
(36:59):
pages. So I think the real risk is like
you almost write too much to market and you lose your voice
and your edginess. Because I do think what often
happens is people respond to an author's voice.
And so if you are not excited tobe writing those pages, they're
going to feel that in the writing.
And so, you know, I would just encourage people who are
(37:21):
thinking about that. It's like, yes, you should look
around at the market, but also you have to love what you're
writing because you know, as youknow, writing a book is really
hard. It will take years in terms of
when you draft it to sending it to an agent, to doing edits, to
seeing it in a bookstore. So you really have to love what
(37:42):
you're writing. And so I think that's bottom
line where you have to start from.
So in your workshop, how are yougoing to help writers balance
craft with emotional authenticity, especially in a
genre where readers have become so deeply invested?
Yeah. You know, I think one of the
easy fun ways to do that is through character brainstorming,
which I think is really important upfront.
(38:04):
So what we'll do is actually do like, you know, worksheets
around, OK, let's talk about your characters.
Like what are their hobbies? What is their star sign?
Like what what are the do they have siblings?
How old are they? But then getting really deep
into things like the characters want versus need.
(38:25):
And I don't know how familiar you are with that concept, but
it's this thing of like, you know, maybe I think I want,
let's say a grilled cheese today.
But actually what I need is something cozy and comforting
because it's like a little cold outside.
So figuring out the deeper question of like throughout this
book, what does this character want versus what do they need
(38:47):
and how how do they help each other find that?
And so in terms of balancing that idea of, you know, the
craft of writing, you know, everything comes down to
character in my opinion, especially with romance novels,
it all has to tie back into thatwant and need that a character
has, but also what makes that character unique and why this
(39:08):
story at this time. So kind of helping writers
answer that question upfront will then help in the pages they
draft. So the name of this podcast is
Unapologetically Creative. Why do you believe that this is
a moment for romance writers to be unapologetically creative?
I mean, I think art and especially writing as a form of
(39:31):
art is so powerful and luckily we're having this beautiful
renaissance with books. I think where you're seeing a
lot of new bookstores pop up, especially romance only
bookstores, you know, I think people are trying to find joy
and trying to find the good in their lives.
And so I think this is the moment where so many writers can
(39:54):
really tap into writing that joyand writing the thing that
brings them pleasure. And doing that through romance
is so powerful because the community wants them to do well.
It's a beautiful community that you know when you find your
readers, they. Really will latch on to you and
(40:15):
let you know how much they want more books from you.
And so I think it's the perfect time to tap into the ideas that
you have and really lean in to what makes you happy because
oftentimes that is what's going to make a romance reader happy
as well, is to to hear your creativity.
(40:35):
Well Aaron, I'm going to bring my BBQ romance novel to your
workshop please, where we will literally stoke the fires of
these BBQ pit masters. I don't know if the book that
you were talking about has BBQ pit masters, but I see these.
I see. No, that that is going to be the
thing that gives you an edge. That's going to give me the
edge. Food truck so yours yours is
(40:56):
going to have the uniqueness there.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Well, I can't wait to figure outif I'm going to pick brisket or
ribs or chicken or Turkey or jalapeno sausage.
I mean, there's just so many innuendos that we can just go
down the list. Well, we're getting into
summertime, so this is a good time for this.
It is a good time for it. Aaron, thank you so much for
joining me on the podcast. Thank you so much, this is
(41:17):
great. And now we turn to a storyteller
working at the intersection of craft, industry, and constant
change. We're joined by Spiro Skensos, A
screenwriter, producer, and educator whose work spans
television and film, and whose career has unfolded alongside
some of the most dramatic shiftsin the industry that's going on
(41:38):
right now. Spiro brings a deep
understanding of story, not justhow it's written, but how it's
made, shaped, and ultimately brought to audiences in a
landscape that's been transformed by streaming, global
distribution, and now the looming questions of around AI
and authorship. As a workshop leader at the VCFA
Writers Conference, Spiro's going to be guiding writers
(41:59):
through the unique demands of screen writing where the story
must live not only on the page, but also on the screen and in
collaboration, under pressure, and often within an evolving
economic reality that challengeswhat it means to sustain a
creative career in the industry.Spiro, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me, appreciateit.
(42:20):
So a little bit of, of, of disclosure here, not only is is
Spiro going to be leading our workshop at at VCFA, but also
Spiro, you're also a student at VCFA currently right now too.
So you're living like in both these worlds?
I do. I love it.
I'm like, well, I'll be getting my MFA in fiction in January 27
(42:41):
and I've been working as a screenwriter for over 20 years,
so I'm excited to be in have a leg in each world and see how
they relate to each other. We'll talk about the conference
in in a second. But I I found your story so
interesting as someone who has come from Hollywood, who has
worked in the industry, has donethis for 20 years.
(43:01):
And one of the things that I think you realize and you shared
with me was that while it was great being a, you know, a
Hollywood showrunner, you yourself didn't have your own
kind of intellectual property that you could call your own.
You were kind of borrowing and using other people's IP.
So and coming to VCFA and doing our MFA program, that was one of
your goals, right? Yeah, I mean, one of my goal, I
(43:24):
am a story writer, you know, a storyteller, and I will tell
stories in any medium, you know,that I want or that I think it's
interesting. And one of the things with
television is that while it's great and collaborative, one of
the things it isn't is it doesn't give you ownership even
if you are the creator of the show that copyrights owned by
the studios. So there's some ideas that I've
(43:45):
just been trying to like write, trying to sell, and there are
ideas that I think would make a great book.
And by writing a book, I have myown intellectual property that I
can get published. I don't need, you know,
cameraman and craftspeople and actors to do it.
I can do all that on the page. And hopefully that's also
something that in the long term can be would be of interest to
(44:07):
Hollywood to make into a featureor series.
So Fast forward, let's zoom intothe workshop that you're going
to be doing at the Writers Conference.
What will writers be working on and learning in your workshop in
session? Yeah.
Well, my workshop is about the 1st 15 pages of your script.
And I just want to take a step back for a second from that and
talk about everyone in the industry talks about how
(44:29):
important the 1st 10 pages are traditionally.
But I've interviewed showrunnerswho say they only read the first
5 pages, which is talk about stressful, you know, when when
they consider a writer. So some of them take it page by
page. They read until they get bored.
So I wanted to dig into more than just the first 5 or 10
pages. My workshop focuses on the 1st
(44:50):
15 pages. That's where we're going to
like, either get your attention or lose your attention.
And then we want to focus on keeping that attention for the
reader. We're going to look closely at
how we use character and tone and world and conflict and how
those are established immediately on, you know, I want
to push writers to think about how they're engaging a reader
(45:12):
from page one. Like, who is the protagonist and
why do we care about them? What's the engine of the story,
especially if this is ATV pilot,and what's the promise?
Like, why should we keep reading?
And those first 15 pages really need to propel the reader.
And Spiro, is that because the attention span of the audience
has changed that if within the 1st 5 minutes of a show or even
(45:32):
the first minute of a show, thatif that they're not hooked,
they're not going to watch. So that studio executive or
anyone who's making that this decision to green light a
project is breeding it in the same way too.
Like if you don't capture me in that first 15 pages or even 5
pages, it's game over. It's game over.
I mean, keep them reading is themantra.
(45:53):
You know, like from the smallestof pedantic things like no typos
to the biggest things like character, you know, unique
characters with a perspective worldview and like, you just
want to capture them in those pages and keep them reading.
So you've lived inside of a of awriter's room.
How will the workshop emulate that or give a little bit of a
(46:15):
sense of what it's like to be inside of a of a writer's room?
Or is is that not the experiencethat you're trying to go for?
What's that experience going to be like?
I, when I teach screen rating, Ido like to keep it as a workshop
in the vein of ATV Writers Room.I think that learning through
collaboration, learning through doing, learning through
rewriting is the way to go. And you know, in ATV room you
(46:37):
learn quickly, like what idea works, what idea doesn't?
It's not about you personally, it's about whether or not the
idea works. And we want to use those, use
that setting to engage the workshop attendees to think that
way and to push forward. And is that writers room time
bound where you say, hey, at theend of the 8 hours today we've
(46:58):
got to walk away with X because if we don't have X, everyone is
waiting on set for the next pages and there's nothing to
film. So we got to keep moving.
Like what's the what's the thingthat's driving?
That Yeah, yeah, I that's exactly, I mean, time is money,
that old trope, right? You only have so much time.
You only have so many people. You and you need to get scripts
(47:19):
written. So when you're working on ATV
show, especially when it's a bignetwork show with 22 episodes,
which is getting rarer and rarer, it's like a train bearing
down on you all the time. So you need to generate pages
and pages and pages. So that's, you know, speaking
about how I'm enrolled at an MFAprogram, like I generate pages
(47:39):
quickly because I've been trained to what to write
quickly. And that's something that one
needs to be able to get that skill up to speed in order to be
in a writer's room. And the only way to do that is
to keep writing, and keep writing so you can it become
second nature to you. They say that in order to master
a craft or master something, yougot to spend 10,000 hours doing
it. So does that pressure cooker of
(48:02):
being in the writers room accelerate that 10,000 hours?
Yeah, I. Think it, that was only like
5000 hours. You know, it's a, it's a very
steep learning curve when you'rein the writers room.
So, you know, I want to use thatsame technique in the workshop,
only not so stressful because there's nothing being made, but
I want people to be able to learn how to, you know, engage
(48:22):
in a group like that. How much of what's happening in
the real world right now comes into your workshop and the work
that you're doing now? Taking in consideration what's
happening in terms of streaming,what's going around in terms of
conversations around AI? Is that something that's
cognizant in the room with you that you want to make sure that
everyone else is also on the same page with you?
(48:44):
Or do you try to keep those things outside the room so that
you can just really focus on thecraft in the storytelling?
No. I mean, you want to focus on the
craft and the storytelling, but these things exist in the real
world. And, you know, take the AI, for
instance. Like it's created a lot of noise
and a lot of chaos, but it's also clarified something that I
think is really important. What truly matters in writing is
(49:04):
specificity, voice, that lived experience, that lived
perspective. Because AI seems to be able to
replicate structure and imitate patterns, but it struggles with
genuine emotional insight, genuine originality, right?
So if you're someone who is goodat structured patterns but are
not original in your thinking oryour voice, you're going to have
a problem. But writing about a specific
(49:25):
human experience that's also universal, like AI can't give
you that. That's people, you know?
That's what we do. I think on the streaming front,
what's really changed is that and look, I could be very like
PC and say streaming has reshaped structure and pasting,
but Spiro is not the PC. Person that I know that I see on
social media so. I could more straightforwardly,
(49:48):
like streaming has ruined attention spans and storytelling
in many ways. Like look, there's more
flexibility. Episodes don't have to all look
the same or feel the same. But there's also more pressure
to hook an audience like we werejust talking about immediately
because everything is competing for attention of the algorithm.
That's all they care about on these platforms.
(50:09):
So I want to teach students thatwriters is like stories begin
with the beginning, middle and end.
And if it's ATV show, well, thenthat pilot needs a beginning,
middle and end and also needs tohave an engine to keep it going
forward. And I always teach that in my
classes where I teach at university.
But, and then I'll have studentscome in and they like, we just
watched a streaming show and nothing happens for the first 3
(50:30):
episodes. And but, but, but, but, so I try
to tell them like, look, we're teaching you the craft is how
you should know it and how you things are usually done.
And then you need to know all those things before you go out.
And you write a series where thefirst 3 episodes are just
cliffhangers with no perceivablestory yet.
But you want to be able to deliver in in TV and film.
You want to be able to deliver astory with three acts that has a
(50:53):
beginning, middle and end. When you're teaching writers to
go to that lived experience, do they need to have that personal
knowledge of that lived experience when they're writing?
Like where does where did where do those or where do those
creative ideas for TV or film oranything that you're writing,
where does that come from? Does it have to be lived?
(51:13):
Well, I mean, I think emotionally it should.
It's a good place to start. Look like I've never been in
outer space and I've never been a vampire and I've no never
lived in the Roman times. But those are all stories that
I've written about. Because at the heart of those
stories, if you know, we're talking about metaphor.
And like we learn metaphor at a very young age, even if we don't
(51:33):
realize it. We humans use metaphors a lot
when when we speak and to understand the world.
So the genre element of your story like that should be a
metaphor that you can just take off like a veneer and you still
have your basic story underneathit.
And I think the genre just adds the emotional element to it.
So if you want to talk about feeling ostracized or a fish out
(51:56):
of water, like you're writing the story about an alien who
comes to Earth and is ostracized, you know, and that's
you don't have to be that alien in order to feel that way.
But if you feel that way, you can write about a bunch of
different things. This is why I think often times
people from underrepresented groups and people from the edges
of society have have traditionally been the most
(52:16):
important artists of our time. Whether it's painting or
writing, it's a point of view that's not been seen or it's an
experience that's been seen differently for the first time.
How do you help writers coming from traditional writing
backgrounds or even outside of of a writing background?
How do you help them think visually and structurally for
the screen? That's a big adjustment because
(52:37):
it was even an adjustment for meto go from the screen to prose.
But I think the biggest adjustment is learning to
externalize everything. If if you're coming from prose,
especially like in prose, you can live inside a character's
thoughts and screen writing, youhave to express that through
behavior, actions, and dialogue.So everything has to be visual
(52:57):
on the screen. So you can only write what's
visual on the page. And it's in a screenplay TV, you
know, play. You can't write.
She walked into the room and shewas really mad about the
conversation she had with her dad.
Like, you can't do that. Like, we can't see that on the
screen. Like, we could see her slam a
door, throw a phone, throw a family photo if she's mad at her
family. So I think everything has to be
(53:20):
visual. And I often tell prose writers
to think less about what a character feels and more about
what they do in response to thatfeeling.
So despite all this disruption, what makes you most excited
about screen writing right now? I mean, like there is a lot of
disruption and there are lots ofdark clouds for sure, but what
(53:40):
excites me is seeing that character in a moment where they
start making choices that drive everything forward and change
their world. You need to screen writing in
such a dynamic form, right? Because it's built on action and
consequence, and when it works, it feels immediate.
And I love that immediacy. That's to me what's really
exciting about TV and film. I also love the collaboration.
(54:01):
How something starts on the pagecan evolve through actors,
directors, craftspeople, production into something larger
than what you initially imagined.
And sometimes they bring ideas and moments that you're, when
you wrote the script origin, you're like, oh, that's a really
great idea. I hadn't envisioned it that way.
I hadn't seen it that way. And that's what the
collaboration thing is really exciting.
(54:22):
So we talked about this little alittle bit earlier, but part of
the reasons why you came to VCFAand to write your NFA was to
create ownership of your ideas, your own intellectual property.
And, and that seems to be more important than ever, especially
with shifts in publishing and streaming and AI.
How do you think, how do you think and see or feel about
(54:43):
creating and protecting your ownIP?
And why does that matter now more than ever?
I think unfortunately, it matters more now than ever
because capitalism, because of unfettered, rampant capitalism,
where all of these corporations are just going to keep eating
each other. So if you're working for one of
them, you're going to be doing the stories they want in the way
(55:03):
that they want because they're the ones who hold the purse
strings. When you're writing something
that is a comic book or a play or a prose and poem, those are
all things that I'm assuming people are writing because
they're passionate about, because that's why I'm writing.
And those are things that you can write on your own without
control of some corporate overlord.
Now, whether it gets, you know, book publishing, of course, is,
(55:26):
you know, having issues right now as has been as well, but
there's lots of opportunities for self-publishing.
And these are all ways to get your idea out because it's your
voice and you want people to seethe world the way you do,
experience emotions or a set of,you know, events that you want
to share with people. So you get to own it and it's
(55:48):
yours. And then you can keep working,
playing in that world in pros, or you can potentially sell it
and it becomes something else. It becomes a series that gets
even wider appealed in that format.
What are you hoping that students walk away with?
And thinking about how they can push the craft forward.
Honestly, I can only show you the craft of like, make sure
(56:11):
your character is built this way, make sure you have the
structural beats to keep people engaged.
But ultimately it's the point ofview and it's your unique
worldview. And like, that's what I'm
excited to to see and to hear Like that's I just want people
to come and like share their stories and like, let's talk
about your short stories. Let's talk about how to make
them better. Let's, you know, talk about
making this like really creative, unapologetically
(56:35):
creative since we're on this podcast.
Spiro, I'm excited for the students that are going to be a
part of your workshop and I lookforward to seeing what comes out
of the workshop and also celebrating you when when it's
time for you to graduate with your MFA.
Now I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm excited too.
I'm excited for all that. Thank you.
The VCFA Writers Conference is more than just a conference.
(56:58):
It's a gathering of voices, a space for risk, a place where
writing is taken seriously and, as Adam said joyfully, a place
where you can show up as you areand leave with something more.
This is going to be a new chapter for VCFA, but at its
heart, it remains what it is always been, a home for writers.
(57:22):
To learn more about the conference, visit vcfa.edu or
VCFA Writers conference.com.
What makes the conference uniqueis the same thing that makes
VCFASMFAS unique, which is again, I'm going to say this
again, but community meeting people, not having that kind of
cutthroat environment, you know,where people are trying to one
up one another, but in fact where people are coming together
(00:22):
in creative friendship and supporting each other.
Welcome to Unapologetically Created, a podcast from the
Vermont College of Fine Arts where we celebrate bold
artistry, transformative creativity, and the audacious
(00:45):
voices shaping the future of thearts.
I'm your host, Andrew Ram Sammy,and in this series, we dive into
honest, inspiring conversations with artists who are pushing
boundaries and redefining what it means to create work that
resonates and endures. Normally, all of our
(01:06):
conversations are recorded during our residencies, those
moments where we gather our community, our creatives, and
all of our lives intersecting together in one place.
But today's episode is going to be a little bit different.
This is actually going to be something really special because
today we're not just reflecting on creativity, we're announcing
(01:26):
a new major chapter. For over 30 years, VCFA has
always held the Post Grad Writers Conference.
But now we're ready to turn a new page.
For the first time in its history, the Vermont College of
Fine Arts Writers Conference is moving West and coming home to
our new residency at Cal Arts. It's going to be a new place.
(01:48):
It's going to be a new space, it's going to have new energy,
and it's going to be a new chapter.
And with that transition also comes new leadership.
For over 3 decades, an extraordinary visionary and
steward has LED our program. And that has been Ellen Lesser,
who helped build this conferenceinto what it is today and to
whom we celebrated at our 30th anniversary last year.
(02:12):
But now we're also welcoming a new voice, a new perspective,
and a new era. Adam Mccomber is a writer, a
teacher, and Co chair of our VCF, AM, FA and Writing program,
and he's stepping in as the new conference director.
So today we'll talk with Adam about what will remain at the
heart of the conference and whatnew possibilities are emerging.
(02:35):
And later in the show, we'll be joined by Aaron Larosa and Spiro
Skensos, who will be leading workshops in romance writing and
screen writing respectively, 2 forms that are rapidly evolving
in today's creative landscape. So with that, let's begin.
Adam, welcome to Unapologetically Creative.
Thanks, Andrew. It's great to be here.
(02:57):
So Adam, the the VCFA Writers Conference, which we're which is
now the new name, but it used tobe known as the Post Grad
Writers Conference, has lived inVermont for over 30 years.
What does it mean to you now, leading it into this next
chapter at Calarts? So I think it's, it's very
exciting to me that we are moving now to Calarts and to Los
(03:21):
Angeles. We are opening the Writers
Conference up in a variety of ways, bringing new energy.
I mean, it's always, it's been agreat thing, right?
A great creator of community of literary friendships.
But now I think, you know, we'reconnecting it to, to industry
and thinking about, you know, LApublishing, LA screen writing,
(03:45):
all kinds of things. So we're we're infusing it with,
with new life, moving it to the West Coast.
And I'm moving in it to the WestCoast.
Adam, how are you going to hold space and legacy for what Ellen
built, but also making space forwhat you hope will become your
own vision for the conference? Yeah, I think holding space, I
mean, I think of a lot about community when I think about
(04:08):
writers conferences. These are people coming from all
over. They might not know any writers
in their own community, so they are making literary friendships.
I always think about the conceptof literary friendship and how
important that is to to writers just in terms of their creative
life, right. So this is a place where people
(04:30):
are going to come together, they're going to meet, they're
going to get to talk about craftissues, they're going to get to
learn about industry. But it's, you know, it's
continuing that legacy of writers coming together, writers
meeting each other, writers supporting each other and really
feeding each other creatively too.
(04:50):
So it creates this, this energy.We're very excited to carry that
over. So what are going to be some of
the core elements of the conference that you feel must
remain unchanged no matter whereit takes place, whether it was
going to be in Vermont or now it's going to be in California?
Yeah. So the workshop is central.
Each day of the conference thereis a 2 hour workshop.
(05:12):
There's small workshops, six person workshops with MFA level
faculty. So you're getting an MFA level
education in this space and and you know, people are looking at
your writing and talking about your writing.
You also, this is something carried over from the post grad.
(05:33):
You'll also get an hour long meeting with your faculty member
to talk about your work and where your work is going.
And, and you know, again, thinking about industry,
thinking about publishing with that, with that faculty member
who has a great deal of experience.
So I think that kind of one-on-one and also small group,
small group workshop is significant and something that I
(05:55):
want to maintain as well as all the lively panels that have
always taken place where again, you're learning about craft,
you're learning about the publishing industry, those kinds
of things. All of that will remain the
same. So for someone who's never
attended a conference, what makes the VCFA Writers
(06:16):
Conference unique compared to other conferences that might be
out there? O What I would say is what makes
the conference unique is the same thing that makes VCFAS MFA
unique, which is again, I'm going to say this again, but
community meeting people, not having that kind of cutthroat
(06:36):
environment, you know, where people are trying to one up one
another, but in fact where people are coming together in
creative friendship and supporting each other.
So I am super invested in creating a joyful creative
environment that really feels like a celebration of the art
that we are making as well as, you know, a way of furthering,
(06:59):
you know, your craft and that sort of thing.
But yeah, the celebration, the joy, the, the, the artistic
friendship coming together. So we've dropped the official
title of the conference being the Post Grad Writers Conference
and you've mentioned VCF as MFA writing program which you are Co
chair of. What are the differences now
(07:21):
between going to VCFA and and doing the MFA versus doing this
week long writers conference? And why did you drop the post
grad title from the conference and now just calling it the VCFA
Writers Conference? So in terms of the difference
between the MFA and the post, the writers conference, it's
(07:43):
going to be a similar feeling. There's going to be it's, it's
going to be a rigorous experience where you get lots of
good feedback on your writing, where you think again about
publishing. So it there's a lot of
similarity between the two in terms of dropping the post grad,
(08:04):
the post grad kind of presumed acertain level of writer perhaps.
But to be honest, I think all ofus are learning all the time as
writers. Every time I start a new novel
project, I feel like I'm relearning the whole thing all
over again. And I like talking to writers of
(08:24):
all different, you know, levels.Maybe somebody has kind of been
writing on their own but hasn't really gotten to be in a formal
workshop yet. Or maybe somebody's been doing
workshops for a while and enjoysthat environment.
I think everybody can come together and that creates a
certain energy and electricity. You know, I've run over the
(08:44):
years lots of private workshops where that has happened and
everybody, all, everybody lifts each other up in a way, right?
So the conversation is is complex and engaging and we can
have all levels of writers in the rooms and it could be a lot
of fun. In an oversimplified way, the
way that I've described the the Post Grad Writers Conference and
(09:05):
now the Writers Conference compared to our, our MFA program
is that the writers conference is, this is a similar
experience, but it's without thehigh stakes, right?
Because obviously you're walkingaway with a, with a degree at
the end of two years. So is the Is the Writers
Conference a good entry point tocome into VCFA if someone's not
(09:26):
ready to fully commit to going into an MFA?
Definitely, if you would like toknow what kind of things take
place in an MFA workshop or talkto some MFA faculty, which you
know, a number of our of the people who are teaching for the
Writers Conference are also MFA faculty.
It's a great place, right? So it is a great place to start
(09:48):
to learn about what that feels like, how it professionalizes
your writing, how it polishes your writing to be in that kind
of room, not only with the faculty, but with peers who who
are again, interested in discussing, you know, your your
writing, which many of us, you know, we don't have a lot of
like literary friends beyond these kinds of spaces.
(10:09):
So the MFA provides that, as does the Writers Conference.
So with the move to Cal Arts andto Los Angeles, what new
opportunities do you hope that this is going to open up for
writers, for faculty and for programming and, and how do you
think that's going to actually deepen now being in in LA?
Yeah. So for me, I'm again thinking
(10:31):
about industry and our connection to agents, to
publishers, to screen writing, you know, to to the Los Angeles
film community. We are working to bring all of
that into the conference so thatyou are, you know, talking to
people that are actively workingin the in the industry.
(10:53):
So I think that the Los Angeles arts community, it's vibrant,
it's interesting, you know, it's, it's on the pulse of
everything. So opening the doors and
bringing that conversation into the writers conference is super
important to me. And and that, you know, it's
very different than being in Vermont, you know, which is also
a beautiful place, but this is going to be a different and, and
(11:17):
again, more kind of industry focused space.
And I know that one of your visions for the conference is
actually expanding new voices, new genres, adding
interdisciplinary elements to tothis conference.
What are you excited about bringing to the conference that
we haven't been able to do before?
Yeah. So traditionally the conference
(11:38):
has been, you know, the three primary genres, fiction,
creative nonfiction and poetry. We are opening that up.
We are very excited about our romance novel workshop, thinking
about things like the popularityof heated rivalry.
And, you know, I just think it'sgoing to be so much fun to bring
(11:58):
that energy in. And, and we have great faculty
for that as well. We're also thinking in terms of
upmarket fiction, so popular fiction as well as literary
fiction. And then also, you know,
obviously this is Los Angeles. We're thinking about writing for
the screen, both for television and for film, but bringing all
of those elements into the mix and just talking about
(12:21):
interdisciplinary. I know so many writers who are,
you know, excited about, oh, maybe my project could one day
become a screenplay, or maybe I'd like to try writing a
screenplay, or maybe I'd like towrite something kind of like
heated rivalry. You know, we can have that kind
of like energy moving back and forth in these spaces because,
(12:41):
you know, not only will we have workshops and panels, but we'll
have gathering, evening gatherings where where people
can can talk and meet and perhaps.
Collaborate. So, Adam, we're in a time where
the writing landscape is is shifting and it's shifting
pretty dramatically, right, WithAI disruptions and publishing,
(13:01):
changing of, of readers habits. The stuff that's happening when
the stuff does crossover into like TV and and film.
How do you see the conference responding to this moment?
Yeah, I, I mean, I think for us writers, because certainly AI is
looming large, but for me craft is still at the center.
(13:25):
So being in a workshop, learninghow to write a scene, how to put
concrete details in, so we get like a three-dimensional vision
of that world, how to create characters that are powerful
that the reader or viewer will care about.
That is not something that AI can do, at least at this point,
(13:50):
Andrew. But it, it, it is, it is
something that we as humans withhearts, with souls can learn how
to do better, right? And that is to me, what the
conference is about. So it's a very, very human
thing. Here we are humans making, you
know, our passionate art, our projects.
(14:12):
And and that is what I'm invested in making come to life.
So AI exists, yes, but it's not,you know, the conference is, is
a living breathing human space of makers.
What does it mean to be able to createspace for writers not just
(14:32):
to improve their craft, but alsoto sustain themselves creatively
given everything that's going onin the world right now, Right.
And, and we're doing this in a world in a, in a time, in a
period of significant kind of craziness.
Yeah. How do writers do that?
How do they createspace for themselves?
And is the conference and and these workshops one of those
(14:55):
ways to Createspace for yourself?
Yeah, I think, I mean, what cameto mind when you asked that
question was the diversity in the space, bringing a wide range
of experiences, a wide range of voices together and allowing
those people to mix and talk andthink together and understand
(15:18):
each other's perspectives. I think that's so helpful in
times like these. And that is I'm very much
invested both from the faculty side and from the participant
side in bringing those diverse voices in.
I also just think giving oneselfspace to create time to create.
(15:40):
We are going to have sessions where, you know, you'll be able
to just sit, meditate, think about what it is that you're,
you know, you've learned in the morning panel and and bring that
to your writing and just not have your phone beside you, you
know, not be doom scrolling these kinds of things.
So creating that I think will give people this kind of breath
(16:01):
of fresh air that they hope, I hope they can then carry with
them back into their own home writing spaces.
And Adam, you're a writer yourself.
Some of your work is kind of crazy in of itself.
You know, vampires. I mean, a lot of things that
don't necessarily show up in kind of traditional spaces.
(16:23):
How does your own creative practice shape how you approach
actually directing this conference with that diverse
background? Absolutely.
So I think that's where that kind of interest in upmarket
fiction, in romance, in science fiction, in horror and fantasy
comes in. I know that when I did my MFA
(16:43):
back in the day, it was all kitchen sink realism, right?
It was about divorces, the deathof a parent, that kind of thing.
That would, that was what the fiction was, right?
So there was no element of the fantastic, of the romantic,
those kinds of things. Those were, you know, the
popular genres were kind of shunned, right?
(17:04):
But my instinct has always been that we all started as readers
because we were reading things like science fiction, like, you
know, horror, like fantasy, and that made us fall in love with
fiction, right? So those things should not be
separated out from either the MFA or a writing conference.
(17:25):
They should be invited in and and built right.
Again, I think all of the same rules apply in terms of craft.
They apply to to this kind of popular writing as well.
So that's that's my full MO is bringing the popular, you know,
to to the literary spaces and saying these things are not
(17:47):
different. So if someone were to receive
the invitation, what do you actually hope that they walk
away with then? Not just as writers, but as as
as human beings. Oh, gosh, I, I mean, I hope that
someone who attends the conference again feels that
sense of joy that we are bringing to it.
(18:10):
And as artists, we have to feel energized.
We have to believe in our self, believe in our projects that
we're working on, have people totalk about those projects with
who are also artists and are, you know, kind of embedded in
their own projects. So that's what I hope people
carry away from the conference is energy that will push them
(18:32):
forward. Maybe they'll want to come back
again because they got that great energy.
You know that those kinds of things, like every time we go to
residency for the NFA, for instance, I feel re energized
and reactivated and is that samesense that I want, that's why I
want people to carry away from our writers conference.
Not only will you be energized, you also be drained in a way
(18:55):
that I think I, I don't know. We've, we've never done it in
this, in this form, in this fashion before.
So I'm really interested in seeing what people walk away
with, but certainly that, that energy, but also that those
moments of catharsis, right where you just go.
This is the reason why that I'm doing this.
This is, this is the sacrifice, right?
(19:15):
In terms of time or resources orwhatever it might be to come to
a place in a space to be able to, to do that.
And Adam, with that, our podcastis called Unapologetically
Creative. What does that phrase mean to
you personally, especially in the context of writing today?
Yeah, I love that. Unapologetically creative.
(19:38):
It means many things to me. But I was thinking about this
recently where sometimes as an artist, you just feel you can
start to feel bad. You can start to feel
downtrodden, like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe I shouldn't.
This is not the right field for me.
Or maybe I'm writing the wrong thing.
(19:58):
Or maybe, you know, I should. I should.
I don't know, reach in some other way, but I, I feel like
again, that energy, you have to get that energy back and that
belief in yourself and being unapologetically creative,
telling the story that you want to tell, that you need to tell
and believing, you know that there is the audience that will
(20:20):
find it out there. That's what unapologetically
creative means to me. So I'm not going to apologize to
anyone. I'm not going to apologize to
myself or or allow myself to kind of feel pushed over by
various, you know, systems of publishing.
Yeah. So just putting the energy out
there doing the thing you want to do.
And again, I hope the conferenceis is a place that will help
(20:43):
people do that. And if someone's on the fence
about attending or applying, what would you say to them?
I would say write to us. I would be happy to talk to you.
I think again, I am planning a conference that I would want to
attend and I'm filling it with faculty members who I just feel
(21:06):
like have a great vibe and will again, uplift you.
And we're filling it with participants that are the same.
So yeah, feel free to reach out to us if you want to talk.
Adam, thank you and and welcome to this new and exciting chapter
with you as Program Director of the VCFA Writers Conference.
Thanks, Andrew. And now we're joined by Aaron
Larosa, author, editor, and one of the most exciting voices
(21:29):
working in romance today. Aaron lives at the intersection
of storytelling, culture, and emotional truth, hoping to shape
a genre that's not only exploding in popularity, but
also evolving in very powerful and necessary ways.
And Aaron's going to be a workshop leader at the VCFA
Writers Conference, where she's going to bring a deep
understanding of what makes romance resonate on the page
(21:51):
with readers, while pushing writers to think about going
beyond just the conventions and into something even more
authentic, inclusive, and bold. Aaron, welcome to
Unapologetically Creative. Thank you so much.
That was such a wonderful introduction and now I want to
sign up for my own workshop, so thank you.
Speaking of, let's let's start with the workshop and then we'll
get into your your work and whatyou do already.
(22:13):
But what can attendees expect from your session on romance
writing and what are they going to walk into and what are they
going to walk out with? Yeah, I'm really excited to host
this. You know, I actually used to
teach writing at USC, where I got my masters.
And so being able to teach specifically about romance shows
(22:34):
how far I've come since graduating.
You know, when I was in college,the idea of even writing romance
was so taboo. And it was really about fiction
with a capital F. So I'm very excited to just talk
about a genre that I love and have been embraced by.
(22:55):
But for this workshop in particular, and I think because
of my teaching background and also because I am a Capricorn in
type, AI really want students toleave feeling like they are
leaving with pages, you know, leaving with work that they can
continue to grow and improve on.And actually get to that stage
(23:17):
of potentially publishing their work.
So we will go over, you know, romance structure because there
are certain things that happen in romance novels similar to
what might happen in a mystery novel or a crime novel, where
there are certain elements to a romance novel that you have to
hit. And structurally going over what
(23:37):
those pillars are will be part of the class so that you not
only leave with a template to follow, but you leave really
with the instructions of how to finish your book and how to
start it. For example, all romance novels
have a good meet cute. Do you know what that is,
Andrew? No.
What is that? A meet cute is when our leads
(23:58):
meet for the first time. And so it can be something, you
know, as simple as they bump into each other at a coffee shop
and someone spills coffee on theother one.
But for me, I like to kind of have myself and writers who I
talk to push the envelope on what those meetings mean and how
(24:18):
they shape the characters for the rest of their journey.
So we'll talk about things like the meet cute.
We'll talk about the second act where, you know, their love is
super heightened, but there has to be something that takes them
down a peg. We'll talk about that guaranteed
happily ever after. That's something that happens in
all romance novels. But yeah, so we'll be giving
(24:39):
students the structure they needto write these, but also writing
pages during class, workshoppingthose pages out loud and really
talking three things like voice.You know, what kind of topics
are off limits or not off limitsin romance.
I think one of the great things that has happened over the years
is that the genre has changed significantly.
(25:01):
So these are not just stories that I think have previously
been thought of as fluff or sortof like, not a lot of substance
to them. The romance novels I write and
the romance novels I love to read are full of complicated
characters and issues and topicsand so really opening up
(25:22):
students minds to what this genre can bring and what it can
mean for their writing. Well, my meat cute.
I already have it in my head where it would happen and it
would happen at a barbecue jointwhere, you know, I mean, the
cutting a brisket, you can't getany more sexy than that.
(25:42):
And maybe something something happens there.
Well let me tell you something, I just was lucky enough to read
an advance copy of Tia Williams new book and there is actually a
sexy grill master who has like aBBQ truck.
So I think that book might be for you, Andrew.
Oh I'm ready, getting recommendations of what I should
be reading. That's right.
(26:03):
Well, I mean, you kind of mentioned it before.
Romance seems to be misunderstood despite the fact
that literally the publishing industry exists on romance,
right? So what do people continually
get wrong about romance? Yeah, You know, I'm glad you
brought that up. I actually started something
(26:23):
here in Burbank, where I live, called the Burbank Book
Festival. And last year we had a whole
panel around, you know, why romance is misunderstood and how
it's not just a phase. Because I think right now,
especially with the uptick in genres like romanticy or sports
romance, there are a lot of kindof think piece articles or hit
(26:46):
articles coming out saying like,wow, romance, it's really a
genre we should all be reading it.
Like, isn't this cool? And you know, romance has been
around for, like you said, decades and decades and decades.
And so this is a genre that not only people love, but has
supported the publishing industry because women buy books
(27:07):
in bulk in a way that men don't.And the thing about romance that
I think gets misunderstood is like, really, these are stories
that more often than not center women.
And they center women's desires,women's passions, you know,
their dreams, their goals. And so these are really women's
(27:29):
stories. And I think the thing that I
love about them is that they're extremely empowering.
They do not have to come at the cost of, of women suffering to
be to be clear about it. I think the nice thing about
romance is that you know that nomatter what your lead is put
(27:50):
through in the end, everything is going to turn out OK for
them, which I think is what we all want.
But really, I think the reason that romance is often dismissed
is because of the patriarchy. I'm sorry, Andrew, no offense,
but you know. These are none, none taken.
OK, great. These are, you know, really
(28:10):
stories that center women and center women who have dreams and
goals and desires. And I think that is so important
and so meaningful. And that's that's really what
the genre is about. And you mentioned it earlier,
but sports romance and sports romance meets, you know, gay
lovers and heated rivalry. Yeah.
(28:31):
It's pushed the genre into a newterritory.
And it's based on a book that came out of.
Rachel Reed series. Yeah.
Yeah, out of Canada. What's happening right now?
Why? Why is there such an explosion
in the romance space between books, adaptations, and then a
fandom that's come as a result of it?
Yeah, You know, I actually, I have a sub stack and I wrote
(28:52):
about, you know, what sports romance is doing to our brains
right now and why we're so drawnto it.
And I do think there are ways toanalyze, you know, why we are so
drawn to sports romance in particular.
And I think one of them is that,you know, this is a story that
takes place in a in a contained environment, right?
(29:14):
In the example of heated rivalry.
You know, this is a lot of timestaking place within a hockey
team, on a rink, in a locker room.
Like, you know, the world, you know what you're getting into.
And because of that, the stakes actually get a bit heightened
because you do know that world, you know that these two men,
it's almost like a Romeo and Juliet situation where it's like
(29:36):
they cannot be together because of the complications that exist
in the sports world around sexuality.
And, you know, needing to present as straight and
masculine and really challengingthose ideals of masculinity is
something that is not super embraced.
(29:57):
And so I think with sports romance, part of the explosion
is that you get to enter into this really contained world and
universe and be part of that. But also the emotions are so
heightened. You know, careers could end,
lives could end, That kind of sort of it.
(30:18):
It takes it beyond simply like, oh, will they be together or
will they not be together? It really adds to the plot and
all of those takes. And I think the take away we can
use as writers is like, OK, if this is really scratching an
itch for people, but I don't. I don't care about sports
personally, and no offense to those who do.
(30:39):
My husband loves basketball. I don't judge him.
He loves it and so. But what can we take away?
Like me, for example, I'm not going to write a sports romance,
but maybe I need to think about other scenarios where there are
contained worlds where the emotions are really heightened
and the stakes are high in a waythat is not, you know, people
are not going to die in this world, but their lives could be
(31:03):
ruined. Their careers could be at stake.
And so I think we're craving some of that kind of soft core
drama that comes from a thing like heated rivalry.
But also heated rivalry is, I mean, I think I've watched the
show. I I would have to say over 10
times. I just keep it on in the
background. And so there's something so
(31:24):
lovely about these people reallyrisking everything for their
love of each other. And that's, that's part of what
romance is too, is really, you know, tapping into this again,
heightened kind of sense of love.
How has that show been able to empower audiences to think about
(31:44):
intimacy and emotional truth in a way that, say, other genres
really can't? Well, you know, I know that in
speaking to my gay male friends,for example, like this has been
really amazing for them to see come to life.
You know, the way that I found out about the series was from my
friend Tom, who said, hey, this book, like, I love it.
(32:07):
It's so good. You have to read it.
And I was like, I'm not a sportsball person.
I'm not reading this like hockeyromance.
No, thank you. But then when I saw the trailer
come out, I was like, oh, this has very attractive people.
And actually it looks more like a romance that I know and love.
So maybe I'm going to watch this, but I know like for for my
gay male friends, like this has been opening a door in terms of
(32:31):
what the romance genre can be and can offer.
And I know for my female friends, like it's been
extremely empowering to watch a show where men can be vulnerable
and men can open up about their feelings.
And that's not something you always see on TV or in movies.
And so I think part of the appeal of this show is that
(32:54):
ability to be vulnerable as a man.
And I do hope that that's one ofthe key takeaways, you know, in
the types of content that we're consuming is that it's actually
very attractive when men can reveal their feelings and
emotions. And that's part of what the
fantasy of a book boyfriend is in romance too, is like a
(33:15):
version of a guy who is actuallytapped into their feelings and
willing to talk about them. So I think that's part of the
itch that's being scratched. And Speaking of that, the image
has always been around romance of Fabio on a horse, but now the
genre is being pushed right in terms of representation and
(33:35):
identity and who gets to be at the center of love stories.
What is exciting you most about the genre right now?
You know, I think publishing as a whole has so much work to do
in terms of representation of all kinds.
The nice thing about romance is that I feel like I see that
(33:57):
shifting slightly faster than other parts of the publishing
industry. And I say slightly faster
because there's still so much work that needs to be done
around representation and inclusivity in books and the
authors who are choosing to publish.
But, you know, romance and the romance community, I think,
actively seeks out just stories about people that maybe they
(34:21):
haven't read about before. Like, I remember, you know,
really in a meaningful way. Helen Wong's series.
And she has written a series of books that feature leads who are
autistic. And that was one of the first
times where he really saw autismcentered in a really meaningful
way that showed that, you know, autism could be part of your
(34:44):
life but doesn't define your entire life.
And I think that kind of representation is meaningful.
You know, when we see that, it changes and shifts how we might
think about someone who's different from us.
And so, you know, that's been a lovely thing to see as an author
and as a reader. Just the ability to walk into a
store and and be able to see allthese different kinds of stories
(35:06):
being told I think is wonderful.So now with things like heated
rivalry, there's a a real big push to go commercial and
mainstream. Is there anything that's going
to be risked in trying to push those things to be commercial
and mainstream or there is therestill the opportunity for more
kind of individualized, bespoke romance work that writers can
(35:30):
really focus on? Yeah.
I mean, I think as a writer, youknow, there is this balance of
like, am I writing to market? Am I writing my passion project?
And so there has to be a balance.
I think if you want to be traditionally published, right,
you do have to look at the market and say what's selling,
what are people interested in? What are readers wanting to see
(35:51):
right now? So for example, I'm seeing a
real trend around cozy romance and sort of like romance that is
not super dark. People have kind of shifted, I
think, because of the times we're currently living.
And we all just need a break. And I think that's part of why
romanticity took off, too. It's like, yeah, take me away
from this world and send me to adifferent 1.
(36:14):
And so in terms of the risk, youknow, I think there's always
going to be room within publishing for things that are
breakouts or feel really different and new.
I just read this great book called Die for Me, and the cover
is so gorgeous. It almost looks like, kind of
like I thought it was actually about a vampire, but it turns
(36:38):
out to be about a male succubus.And it was one of the most
unique, interesting books I've read maybe ever in terms of the
writing style, in terms of the subject.
And you could really feel that this author was just like, you
know what, I am going to write what I want to see, and they
wrote it. And you can feel that in the
(36:59):
pages. So I think the real risk is like
you almost write too much to market and you lose your voice
and your edginess. Because I do think what often
happens is people respond to an author's voice.
And so if you are not excited tobe writing those pages, they're
going to feel that in the writing.
And so, you know, I would just encourage people who are
(37:21):
thinking about that. It's like, yes, you should look
around at the market, but also you have to love what you're
writing because you know, as youknow, writing a book is really
hard. It will take years in terms of
when you draft it to sending it to an agent, to doing edits, to
seeing it in a bookstore. So you really have to love what
(37:42):
you're writing. And so I think that's bottom
line where you have to start from.
So in your workshop, how are yougoing to help writers balance
craft with emotional authenticity, especially in a
genre where readers have become so deeply invested?
Yeah. You know, I think one of the
easy fun ways to do that is through character brainstorming,
which I think is really important upfront.
(38:04):
So what we'll do is actually do like, you know, worksheets
around, OK, let's talk about your characters.
Like what are their hobbies? What is their star sign?
Like what what are the do they have siblings?
How old are they? But then getting really deep
into things like the characters want versus need.
(38:25):
And I don't know how familiar you are with that concept, but
it's this thing of like, you know, maybe I think I want,
let's say a grilled cheese today.
But actually what I need is something cozy and comforting
because it's like a little cold outside.
So figuring out the deeper question of like throughout this
book, what does this character want versus what do they need
(38:47):
and how how do they help each other find that?
And so in terms of balancing that idea of, you know, the
craft of writing, you know, everything comes down to
character in my opinion, especially with romance novels,
it all has to tie back into thatwant and need that a character
has, but also what makes that character unique and why this
(39:08):
story at this time. So kind of helping writers
answer that question upfront will then help in the pages they
draft. So the name of this podcast is
Unapologetically Creative. Why do you believe that this is
a moment for romance writers to be unapologetically creative?
I mean, I think art and especially writing as a form of
(39:31):
art is so powerful and luckily we're having this beautiful
renaissance with books. I think where you're seeing a
lot of new bookstores pop up, especially romance only
bookstores, you know, I think people are trying to find joy
and trying to find the good in their lives.
And so I think this is the moment where so many writers can
(39:54):
really tap into writing that joyand writing the thing that
brings them pleasure. And doing that through romance
is so powerful because the community wants them to do well.
It's a beautiful community that you know when you find your
readers, they. Really will latch on to you and
(40:15):
let you know how much they want more books from you.
And so I think it's the perfect time to tap into the ideas that
you have and really lean in to what makes you happy because
oftentimes that is what's going to make a romance reader happy
as well, is to to hear your creativity.
(40:35):
Well Aaron, I'm going to bring my BBQ romance novel to your
workshop please, where we will literally stoke the fires of
these BBQ pit masters. I don't know if the book that
you were talking about has BBQ pit masters, but I see these.
I see. No, that that is going to be the
thing that gives you an edge. That's going to give me the
edge. Food truck so yours yours is
(40:56):
going to have the uniqueness there.
Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Well, I can't wait to figure outif I'm going to pick brisket or
ribs or chicken or Turkey or jalapeno sausage.
I mean, there's just so many innuendos that we can just go
down the list. Well, we're getting into
summertime, so this is a good time for this.
It is a good time for it. Aaron, thank you so much for
joining me on the podcast. Thank you so much, this is
(41:17):
great. And now we turn to a storyteller
working at the intersection of craft, industry, and constant
change. We're joined by Spiro Skensos, A
screenwriter, producer, and educator whose work spans
television and film, and whose career has unfolded alongside
some of the most dramatic shiftsin the industry that's going on
(41:38):
right now. Spiro brings a deep
understanding of story, not justhow it's written, but how it's
made, shaped, and ultimately brought to audiences in a
landscape that's been transformed by streaming, global
distribution, and now the looming questions of around AI
and authorship. As a workshop leader at the VCFA
Writers Conference, Spiro's going to be guiding writers
(41:59):
through the unique demands of screen writing where the story
must live not only on the page, but also on the screen and in
collaboration, under pressure, and often within an evolving
economic reality that challengeswhat it means to sustain a
creative career in the industry.Spiro, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me, appreciateit.
(42:20):
So a little bit of, of, of disclosure here, not only is is
Spiro going to be leading our workshop at at VCFA, but also
Spiro, you're also a student at VCFA currently right now too.
So you're living like in both these worlds?
I do. I love it.
I'm like, well, I'll be getting my MFA in fiction in January 27
(42:41):
and I've been working as a screenwriter for over 20 years,
so I'm excited to be in have a leg in each world and see how
they relate to each other. We'll talk about the conference
in in a second. But I I found your story so
interesting as someone who has come from Hollywood, who has
worked in the industry, has donethis for 20 years.
(43:01):
And one of the things that I think you realize and you shared
with me was that while it was great being a, you know, a
Hollywood showrunner, you yourself didn't have your own
kind of intellectual property that you could call your own.
You were kind of borrowing and using other people's IP.
So and coming to VCFA and doing our MFA program, that was one of
your goals, right? Yeah, I mean, one of my goal, I
(43:24):
am a story writer, you know, a storyteller, and I will tell
stories in any medium, you know,that I want or that I think it's
interesting. And one of the things with
television is that while it's great and collaborative, one of
the things it isn't is it doesn't give you ownership even
if you are the creator of the show that copyrights owned by
the studios. So there's some ideas that I've
(43:45):
just been trying to like write, trying to sell, and there are
ideas that I think would make a great book.
And by writing a book, I have myown intellectual property that I
can get published. I don't need, you know,
cameraman and craftspeople and actors to do it.
I can do all that on the page. And hopefully that's also
something that in the long term can be would be of interest to
(44:07):
Hollywood to make into a featureor series.
So Fast forward, let's zoom intothe workshop that you're going
to be doing at the Writers Conference.
What will writers be working on and learning in your workshop in
session? Yeah.
Well, my workshop is about the 1st 15 pages of your script.
And I just want to take a step back for a second from that and
talk about everyone in the industry talks about how
(44:29):
important the 1st 10 pages are traditionally.
But I've interviewed showrunnerswho say they only read the first
5 pages, which is talk about stressful, you know, when when
they consider a writer. So some of them take it page by
page. They read until they get bored.
So I wanted to dig into more than just the first 5 or 10
pages. My workshop focuses on the 1st
(44:50):
15 pages. That's where we're going to
like, either get your attention or lose your attention.
And then we want to focus on keeping that attention for the
reader. We're going to look closely at
how we use character and tone and world and conflict and how
those are established immediately on, you know, I want
to push writers to think about how they're engaging a reader
(45:12):
from page one. Like, who is the protagonist and
why do we care about them? What's the engine of the story,
especially if this is ATV pilot,and what's the promise?
Like, why should we keep reading?
And those first 15 pages really need to propel the reader.
And Spiro, is that because the attention span of the audience
has changed that if within the 1st 5 minutes of a show or even
(45:32):
the first minute of a show, thatif that they're not hooked,
they're not going to watch. So that studio executive or
anyone who's making that this decision to green light a
project is breeding it in the same way too.
Like if you don't capture me in that first 15 pages or even 5
pages, it's game over. It's game over.
I mean, keep them reading is themantra.
(45:53):
You know, like from the smallestof pedantic things like no typos
to the biggest things like character, you know, unique
characters with a perspective worldview and like, you just
want to capture them in those pages and keep them reading.
So you've lived inside of a of awriter's room.
How will the workshop emulate that or give a little bit of a
(46:15):
sense of what it's like to be inside of a of a writer's room?
Or is is that not the experiencethat you're trying to go for?
What's that experience going to be like?
I, when I teach screen rating, Ido like to keep it as a workshop
in the vein of ATV Writers Room.I think that learning through
collaboration, learning through doing, learning through
rewriting is the way to go. And you know, in ATV room you
(46:37):
learn quickly, like what idea works, what idea doesn't?
It's not about you personally, it's about whether or not the
idea works. And we want to use those, use
that setting to engage the workshop attendees to think that
way and to push forward. And is that writers room time
bound where you say, hey, at theend of the 8 hours today we've
(46:58):
got to walk away with X because if we don't have X, everyone is
waiting on set for the next pages and there's nothing to
film. So we got to keep moving.
Like what's the what's the thingthat's driving?
That Yeah, yeah, I that's exactly, I mean, time is money,
that old trope, right? You only have so much time.
You only have so many people. You and you need to get scripts
(47:19):
written. So when you're working on ATV
show, especially when it's a bignetwork show with 22 episodes,
which is getting rarer and rarer, it's like a train bearing
down on you all the time. So you need to generate pages
and pages and pages. So that's, you know, speaking
about how I'm enrolled at an MFAprogram, like I generate pages
(47:39):
quickly because I've been trained to what to write
quickly. And that's something that one
needs to be able to get that skill up to speed in order to be
in a writer's room. And the only way to do that is
to keep writing, and keep writing so you can it become
second nature to you. They say that in order to master
a craft or master something, yougot to spend 10,000 hours doing
it. So does that pressure cooker of
(48:02):
being in the writers room accelerate that 10,000 hours?
Yeah, I. Think it, that was only like
5000 hours. You know, it's a, it's a very
steep learning curve when you'rein the writers room.
So, you know, I want to use thatsame technique in the workshop,
only not so stressful because there's nothing being made, but
I want people to be able to learn how to, you know, engage
(48:22):
in a group like that. How much of what's happening in
the real world right now comes into your workshop and the work
that you're doing now? Taking in consideration what's
happening in terms of streaming,what's going around in terms of
conversations around AI? Is that something that's
cognizant in the room with you that you want to make sure that
everyone else is also on the same page with you?
(48:44):
Or do you try to keep those things outside the room so that
you can just really focus on thecraft in the storytelling?
No. I mean, you want to focus on the
craft and the storytelling, but these things exist in the real
world. And, you know, take the AI, for
instance. Like it's created a lot of noise
and a lot of chaos, but it's also clarified something that I
think is really important. What truly matters in writing is
(49:04):
specificity, voice, that lived experience, that lived
perspective. Because AI seems to be able to
replicate structure and imitate patterns, but it struggles with
genuine emotional insight, genuine originality, right?
So if you're someone who is goodat structured patterns but are
not original in your thinking oryour voice, you're going to have
a problem. But writing about a specific
(49:25):
human experience that's also universal, like AI can't give
you that. That's people, you know?
That's what we do. I think on the streaming front,
what's really changed is that and look, I could be very like
PC and say streaming has reshaped structure and pasting,
but Spiro is not the PC. Person that I know that I see on
social media so. I could more straightforwardly,
(49:48):
like streaming has ruined attention spans and storytelling
in many ways. Like look, there's more
flexibility. Episodes don't have to all look
the same or feel the same. But there's also more pressure
to hook an audience like we werejust talking about immediately
because everything is competing for attention of the algorithm.
That's all they care about on these platforms.
(50:09):
So I want to teach students thatwriters is like stories begin
with the beginning, middle and end.
And if it's ATV show, well, thenthat pilot needs a beginning,
middle and end and also needs tohave an engine to keep it going
forward. And I always teach that in my
classes where I teach at university.
But, and then I'll have studentscome in and they like, we just
watched a streaming show and nothing happens for the first 3
(50:30):
episodes. And but, but, but, but, so I try
to tell them like, look, we're teaching you the craft is how
you should know it and how you things are usually done.
And then you need to know all those things before you go out.
And you write a series where thefirst 3 episodes are just
cliffhangers with no perceivablestory yet.
But you want to be able to deliver in in TV and film.
You want to be able to deliver astory with three acts that has a
(50:53):
beginning, middle and end. When you're teaching writers to
go to that lived experience, do they need to have that personal
knowledge of that lived experience when they're writing?
Like where does where did where do those or where do those
creative ideas for TV or film oranything that you're writing,
where does that come from? Does it have to be lived?
(51:13):
Well, I mean, I think emotionally it should.
It's a good place to start. Look like I've never been in
outer space and I've never been a vampire and I've no never
lived in the Roman times. But those are all stories that
I've written about. Because at the heart of those
stories, if you know, we're talking about metaphor.
And like we learn metaphor at a very young age, even if we don't
(51:33):
realize it. We humans use metaphors a lot
when when we speak and to understand the world.
So the genre element of your story like that should be a
metaphor that you can just take off like a veneer and you still
have your basic story underneathit.
And I think the genre just adds the emotional element to it.
So if you want to talk about feeling ostracized or a fish out
(51:56):
of water, like you're writing the story about an alien who
comes to Earth and is ostracized, you know, and that's
you don't have to be that alien in order to feel that way.
But if you feel that way, you can write about a bunch of
different things. This is why I think often times
people from underrepresented groups and people from the edges
of society have have traditionally been the most
(52:16):
important artists of our time. Whether it's painting or
writing, it's a point of view that's not been seen or it's an
experience that's been seen differently for the first time.
How do you help writers coming from traditional writing
backgrounds or even outside of of a writing background?
How do you help them think visually and structurally for
the screen? That's a big adjustment because
(52:37):
it was even an adjustment for meto go from the screen to prose.
But I think the biggest adjustment is learning to
externalize everything. If if you're coming from prose,
especially like in prose, you can live inside a character's
thoughts and screen writing, youhave to express that through
behavior, actions, and dialogue.So everything has to be visual
(52:57):
on the screen. So you can only write what's
visual on the page. And it's in a screenplay TV, you
know, play. You can't write.
She walked into the room and shewas really mad about the
conversation she had with her dad.
Like, you can't do that. Like, we can't see that on the
screen. Like, we could see her slam a
door, throw a phone, throw a family photo if she's mad at her
family. So I think everything has to be
(53:20):
visual. And I often tell prose writers
to think less about what a character feels and more about
what they do in response to thatfeeling.
So despite all this disruption, what makes you most excited
about screen writing right now? I mean, like there is a lot of
disruption and there are lots ofdark clouds for sure, but what
(53:40):
excites me is seeing that character in a moment where they
start making choices that drive everything forward and change
their world. You need to screen writing in
such a dynamic form, right? Because it's built on action and
consequence, and when it works, it feels immediate.
And I love that immediacy. That's to me what's really
exciting about TV and film. I also love the collaboration.
(54:01):
How something starts on the pagecan evolve through actors,
directors, craftspeople, production into something larger
than what you initially imagined.
And sometimes they bring ideas and moments that you're, when
you wrote the script origin, you're like, oh, that's a really
great idea. I hadn't envisioned it that way.
I hadn't seen it that way. And that's what the
collaboration thing is really exciting.
(54:22):
So we talked about this little alittle bit earlier, but part of
the reasons why you came to VCFAand to write your NFA was to
create ownership of your ideas, your own intellectual property.
And, and that seems to be more important than ever, especially
with shifts in publishing and streaming and AI.
How do you think, how do you think and see or feel about
(54:43):
creating and protecting your ownIP?
And why does that matter now more than ever?
I think unfortunately, it matters more now than ever
because capitalism, because of unfettered, rampant capitalism,
where all of these corporations are just going to keep eating
each other. So if you're working for one of
them, you're going to be doing the stories they want in the way
(55:03):
that they want because they're the ones who hold the purse
strings. When you're writing something
that is a comic book or a play or a prose and poem, those are
all things that I'm assuming people are writing because
they're passionate about, because that's why I'm writing.
And those are things that you can write on your own without
control of some corporate overlord.
Now, whether it gets, you know, book publishing, of course, is,
(55:26):
you know, having issues right now as has been as well, but
there's lots of opportunities for self-publishing.
And these are all ways to get your idea out because it's your
voice and you want people to seethe world the way you do,
experience emotions or a set of,you know, events that you want
to share with people. So you get to own it and it's
(55:48):
yours. And then you can keep working,
playing in that world in pros, or you can potentially sell it
and it becomes something else. It becomes a series that gets
even wider appealed in that format.
What are you hoping that students walk away with?
And thinking about how they can push the craft forward.
Honestly, I can only show you the craft of like, make sure
(56:11):
your character is built this way, make sure you have the
structural beats to keep people engaged.
But ultimately it's the point ofview and it's your unique
worldview. And like, that's what I'm
excited to to see and to hear Like that's I just want people
to come and like share their stories and like, let's talk
about your short stories. Let's talk about how to make
them better. Let's, you know, talk about
making this like really creative, unapologetically
(56:35):
creative since we're on this podcast.
Spiro, I'm excited for the students that are going to be a
part of your workshop and I lookforward to seeing what comes out
of the workshop and also celebrating you when when it's
time for you to graduate with your MFA.
Now I appreciate that. Yeah, I'm excited too.
I'm excited for all that. Thank you.
The VCFA Writers Conference is more than just a conference.
(56:58):
It's a gathering of voices, a space for risk, a place where
writing is taken seriously and, as Adam said joyfully, a place
where you can show up as you areand leave with something more.
This is going to be a new chapter for VCFA, but at its
heart, it remains what it is always been, a home for writers.
(57:22):
To learn more about the conference, visit vcfa.edu or
VCFA Writers conference.com.
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