April 28, 2026 • 29 mins
Sue William Silverman, award-winning author and co-chair of the MFA in Writing program at the Vermont College of Fine Arts, joins Unapologetically Creative to explore the craft and courage behind creative nonfiction.
From uncovering deeper meaning through metaphor and revision to writing through vulnerability and emotional risk, Silverman shares how storytelling becomes a path to self-discovery. She discusses the balance between lived experience and reflection, the role of persistence in the creative process, and why writers must learn to claim their stories without apology.
1:51 What Is Creative Nonfiction
4:17 The Unaware and Aware Narrator
6:10 Finding Meaning in Small Moments
9:55 Can Creative Nonfiction Be Taught
11:02 Writing Vulnerability and Personal Truths
14:30 Is Writing Therapeutic
15:41 Core Practices for Writers
17:09 The Power of Metaphor in Storytelling
19:51 Writing in the Present and Emotional Risk
22:58 Teaching Students to Share Difficult Stories
25:00 Advice to Younger Writers
26:41 What It Means to Be Unapologetically Creative
28:49 Final Takeaways on Creativity and Persistence
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Don't be embarrassed by your stories.
Claim yourself. We all have narratives.
We all have more than one narrative.
Claim it and don't apologize. Welcome to Unapologetically
Created, a podcast from the Vermont College of Fine Arts,
(00:25):
where we celebrate bold artistry, transformative
creativity, and the audacious voices shaping the future of the
arts. I'm your host, Andrew Ram Sammy,
and in this series we dive into honest, inspiring conversations
with artists who are pushing boundaries and redefining what
it means to create work that resonates and endures.
(00:50):
Sue William Silverman is an award-winning author of memoirs,
essays, and poetry, and she's Cochair of the MFA in Writing
program right here at the Vermont College of Fine Arts.
In this episode, she explores the craft and courage behind
creative non fiction, breaking down how writers move beyond
(01:12):
simply recounting what happened to uncover deeper meaning
through reflection, metaphor, and revision, and how even the
smallest moments can hold profound insight.
Through her work. And teaching writing becomes a
process of discovery where understanding only fully emerges
(01:33):
once the story is on the page. Sue, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Andrew. So you've built your career
around creative non fiction, Yes?
How do you define the genre and why is it different than, say,
poetry or fiction? So creative non fiction is
(01:54):
really about self exploration and it's uncovering the
metaphors and a deeper meaning of the self.
You know, we all sort of live our lives and kind of bumble
through and, you know, hope for the best.
And but then at the end of the day, what does it all mean?
And for me and for other creative non fiction writers, it
(02:18):
really is a need to know the self.
But it's not just like a navel gazing thing.
It's really how does the self intersect in a larger way with
the universe? And you know, like I think that
all stories were all sort of political.
You know, if I write about myself, there's also a social
(02:41):
context to it, a political context to it.
So that part is interesting too.But it's just I wanted to really
know who I was before I died. But yeah, it's, it's it's been a
fascinating journey because you know, you think you sort of
(03:01):
understand what's happened to you.
But until you write it, you you really don't, you know, the
surface story. Like I can say this happened to
me and then that happened to me,but you're right, created not
fiction to understand that deeper meaning behind the what
happens. Like what are the metaphors for
my life? So this happened to me, but what
(03:23):
does it mean? How did it affect other things?
So it really is that about self exploration and discovering
metaphor. Does it manifest itself into a
memoir? Like, what are the different
ways that creative nonfiction can go?
So there creative nonfiction is kind of the big umbrella term.
(03:43):
And within creative nonfiction there is memoir, there's
personal essay, there's the lyric essay, there's a
meditative essay, there's speculative nonfiction.
So there's a whole host of things that fall under the wider
umbrella of what of creative nonfiction.
So in the low residency MFA program here that we have a
(04:06):
VCFA, how do you convey the craft of all of that?
And then you combine it into this thing called the unaware
narrator. What is that?
Right. So, well, the unaware narrator
has has to be joined with the aware narrator.
(04:26):
So it's a, it's a package and the unaware narrator really does
represent the what happened during whatever event you're
writing about, right? It's a time something is
happening to you. You're not really, you know,
aware of what's going on, what it means, you're just sort of
living the experience. So then when you come to write a
(04:50):
bit about it, the author narrator, that's the aware voice
tries to make sense of it through reflection and metaphor,
but you also need that what happened.
So creative nonfiction is a constant sort of twinning
together of this unaware narrator with the aware narrator
(05:11):
in order to get a complete picture of what you know, the
episode or the scene, whatever it is you're writing.
And how does 1 establish that? What?
How does one go about doing that?
A lot of practice. That's why you come to VCFA,
because I can teach you. No, it's really, you know,
you'll start out in a scene and you do sort of begin like, well,
(05:36):
this happens and then it's through the revision, lots of
revision that you could dig deeper and deeper and try to
make sense of an experience. And that's where the reflection
comes in. Like this happened to me.
And then the question is, well, why?
And what does it mean? And that's where that aware
voice comes in and it's you're not going to get it on the first
(05:59):
draft. I mean, that is what revision is
for. So by the 10th, 12th, 20th draft
left, you're really digging downdeep and you are making sense of
an experience. So in selected misdemeanors,
it's been described as word grenades that turn fleeting
moments into emotional tsunamis.Wow, that's heavy.
(06:21):
What drew you to this format of what's considered to be flash
and and micro essays? And what is Flash and what are
micro essays? And what do you hope readers
feel in those compressed spaces?So I think what brought me to
flash. So I've written 2 full length
memoirs and then I've written two books that are essay
(06:41):
collections, but the essays are relatively long.
And then I suddenly started seeing my sort of smaller
moments of life. I mean, think about your life
like, these big things will happen.
You know, you'll get married or you get divorced or you get sick
or somebody dies. Those are these big moments in
(07:02):
life. But think about it, your whole
life, all that space in between,there's a lot of time.
Oh, yeah. And how do you make sense of
that time? Because that's the most of what
1's life is. And that's really what brought
me to Flash, is to try to understand these sort of smaller
(07:23):
moments that do in fact, time wise can be small, but they can
also be revelatory, right? And universal.
You know, I think of it sort of as sort of shimmering
epiphanies. And I really wanted to
understand what those quiet, seemingly quieter moments meant.
(07:45):
And I can give you an example. One of the essays is called
Scratching the Surface. And when I was a kid, maybe in
kindergarten, I was roller skating, and I fell and I cut my
knee and, you know, I was bleeding.
And at the time, you know, again, that would be the unaware
of a narrator is that, well, youknow, I hurt my knee and it's
(08:09):
bleeding. But yet that moment never left
me. I felt like something profound
had happened. And then decades later, I'm
writing these slash essays and it's I realized that sort of for
the first time with this cut in my skin, I realized, oh, there's
(08:31):
something deeper here. You know, when you're a kid, you
just sort of there's, you're very surfacey.
You know, here I am, my body. This is just who I am.
And then when I cut myself, I realized there's a whole
interior universe inside of me. And then that led to the and of
course, this is just, these are just realizations that come
(08:52):
through the writing. This is nothing that ever would
have happened if I hadn't written it.
And then I came to the deeper revelation.
Not only was there this whole sort of organic, you know,
blood, bones, organs inside of me, but there's also like a
soul, emotions, urgencies, obsessions, and all of this is
(09:17):
just from kind of just that. One cut, yes.
Right. And most of these flash essays
are do evolve around like an image.
Like this image sort of comes first, and then it's a matter of
sort of deconstructing that image and seeing, well, what
does that image mean? All of these things that you
(09:39):
describe and the way that you'redescribing them, can that be
taught to understand those things, or is it, Does one have
to have such a social emotional awareness to be able to write
that way? It can absolutely be taught and
that is what what I work on withmy students here at VCFA, It's
(10:03):
how to sort of acts. I mean, I think when a lot of
students come in, they're very familiar with that unaware voice
of what happened. And so I would say a large part
of my job as a mentor is to teach them to access, you know,
sort of get in touch with those sensory images and how you can
(10:23):
slant these images so that they become metaphors.
And it's not so hard to understand how to do that
intellectually. But actually doing it on the
page can take time. But that's what the students are
here is to learn how to do that.So yes, it absolutely can be
taught. So the subtitle Essays at the
(10:43):
Mercy of the Reader suggests A risky intimacy between the
reader in what you're writing. How do you balance vulnerability
and craft in writing such personal things, especially when
they include misdemeanors? So I want we, I want this essay
(11:05):
is the mercy of the reader. I do want the reader to have
mercy and forgive my misdemeanors.
You want them to have mercy? And give you mercy.
Give me mercy. Give you mercy.
Yes, yes. To not judge me too harshly for
my misdemeanors. And mind you, I never went to
jail. I never really.
(11:26):
Well, I probably broke some laws, Yeah, but nothing, you
know, Sure. I think we do.
We always say we all. Speed our cars, right?
Yeah, I did a little shopliftingof.
Sue so. Yes, when I was young I did, but
it's a shoplifting is a cry for help.
I mean, it's not. I mean, they're you.
(11:46):
Lose a cry for help then, or youbelieve in then.
No, I mean I did not. Know you didn't know that right
now, you know, right. But.
And was that part of the processof writing that revealed that to
you in that in that writing, yeah.
Absolutely. I mean, I just, I don't know how
to really just think. I don't know how to think until
I write. I mean, that's really how I
(12:07):
learn who I am. And in selected misdemeanors, I
mean, there are are a lot of transgressions that I write
about a lot of adultery. I'm sorry, I feel embarrassed.
Don't but. Thank you for revealing.
Yes. I mean, it was, it's always like
sort of the theme of the book isthis desire sort of for home and
(12:31):
family, which is in conflict with my actual behaviors.
Because so growing up, my fathersexually molested me.
And so I grew up with this sex addiction because I didn't
understand the difference between sex and love because how
(12:52):
would I? Because that's how he showed me
his love. And so I would have affairs with
men who are old enough to be my father because I was clearly
looking for a father. And more than anything, I wanted
like this man I was having an affair with who wouldn't be
married. I wanted them like to adopt me.
I didn't really even want to have the affair, but I didn't
(13:15):
know how to get what I wanted, which was this home.
And so a lot of it is just this kind of offenses, yeah, the
misdemeanors offenses that I kind of brought on myself,
right? You know, I heard.
Because you were pursuing that, pursuing something, but in order
(13:35):
to get that, you would have to do something.
A misdemeanor, Yeah. And I think of it kind of more
like emotional misdemeanors. But so a lot of the tension in
the book is between this kind ofyearning for this home and my
miscalculation as to how to get it.
(13:56):
But I would say that, you know, a lot of the book is sort of
emotionally subversive because it was also about kind of
rebelling against the patriarchyand initially not doing a good
job of it because I didn't understand what I was rebelling
against. But that's part of the
narrator's journey is to understand how to go about
(14:18):
rebelling. Rebelling with A cause, as
opposed to rebelling without a cause.
Is writing for you meant to be therapeutic?
I don't see it as therapeutic. Actually.
I've been in therapy for years. I'm not now, but it's very
different. Therapy is messy and it's all
(14:43):
over the place and it's blood, sweat and tears.
When you're creating art, you have to have more control over
your material. You can't be like bleeding on
the page or weeping it. Yeah, we you don't want to sell
a book that has teardrops on it.So which isn't to say that.
(15:03):
So it's not therapeutic in the the way you would think of that,
that word, but yet. But getting insight into the
self is certainly enlightening and makes me a more whole
person. But I see them as different ways
(15:24):
of sort of obtaining selfhood ina way.
In your crap book, A Settling Tort Songs, it emphasizes
practice over theory. What are the three foundational
practices that you teach emerging nonfiction writers?
So the main things and practices1 is what we're talking about
(15:48):
before about that unaware voice and the aware voice.
That's like really key. Because otherwise I would say
like, say, celebrity memoirs arejust as unaware voices.
Like this happened to me. I know I won this award and you
know, or I got divorced, but it's very surfacey.
That's not but ordinary people like me who are not celebrities,
(16:12):
we write memoir and you need that sort of that dual voice,
that unaware voice overlaid withthe aware voice.
It's going to deepen the work. So that's one.
One thing that's really important in conjunction with
that is metaphor is to, because that's what makes your work
(16:33):
universal. You know, if you write in
generalities like I feel sad, you can't feel my sadness.
It's like a blah word. So what you do is you take a
sensory imagery, sensory, you know, any kind of sensory
imagery that's just, you know, in your current environment and
(16:54):
you craft it in such a way, you slant it in such a way so that
it becomes metaphoric. And a metaphor is universal.
And I could give you an example if you would.
Like please do OK? I feel like I'm in class.
Cool. So in my memoir, Lovesick One
Woman's Journey Through Sexual Addiction, what this one section
(17:18):
is about, I'm a freshman in college and I'm having an affair
with this man who is old enough to be my father.
And he wears this maroon cashmere scarf.
And, you know, so we go on. I can't call it Dave's, but we
go out and have sex. And at one point I really want
(17:39):
this scarf. And so he kind of gives it to
me. I sort of take it.
Anyway, so I'd go back to my dorm and he goes back to his
wife and I had this ruined cashmere scarf.
And for the first, maybe 10 dress of the memoir, it was just
some ruined cashmere scarf. But draft after draft, I felt a
(18:01):
lot of energy around this scarf.I thought, OK, this means
something. So what it came to mean, and the
way I had to describe it was that the scarf is a metaphor for
the fact that I couldn't have the man because for obvious
reasons, all I could have of himwas the scarf.
(18:23):
And so it becomes a metaphor forloss, but also sort of for
comfort again, because I can't have the man, but this very soft
marine cashmere scarf, I can sort of hold it.
And so it becomes like this universal metaphor both for
(18:45):
wanting love and loss and all that.
So by describing this maroon scarf, even though you yourself
have probably never had an affair with a married man old
enough to be your father, let alone who had him ruined scarf,
you can't identify with that. But you can identify with that
feeling of loss or longing for love, because that's a universal
(19:09):
feeling, right? So that's the power of metaphor.
And that's when a major thing that I work with with students
is teaching them how to take these sensory images and
crafting them in such a way so that they become metaphoric so
that your reader can relate to your experience.
(19:30):
Was the scarf from Lovesick? Yes, and that was the book that
was turned into a Lifetime film.That's correct.
Well, I was going to ask you like because a lot of your work
is very reflective on the past. How do you write about something
that it's happening in the now while still remaining reflective
and trying to remain true to thethe craft?
(19:50):
Well, actually love sick. I did write not long after
therapy, not long after the 28th.
Well, maybe a year or so, but itwasn't like the real distant
past. And OK, this is an exclusive.
You've up. You're you're hearing hearing it
(20:11):
here first. When I was writing Love Sick, I
had a relapse. And I mean, it wasn't pretty.
It was really painful and horrible, but I had a relapse.
And so I was still kind of in the addiction, but trying to get
(20:33):
out of it. And in some ways, I think it
helped the writing because it brought me back to the pain of
it, like, oh, my God, I'm here again.
No, I can't be here again. How do I get out of this?
And it was really painful because, like, now I knew
better. I knew this is not going to end
(20:54):
well for anybody, right? But there I was having a
relapse. So I think you don't have to
wait, you know, like years or decades or something for
something to sort of settle downbefore you write about it.
And some of the essays in Selectedness Demeanors, some are
from the distant past, but others are rather current
(21:17):
episodes. So it's really your courage and
your willingness to face something and go deep into it,
even if it's still sort of an open wound.
I have a high tolerance for pain, emotional pain, and I like
(21:40):
that I do. I know most people flee
emotional pain because like, whydon't most people want to be
happy? I'm very leery of just being
happy. That scares me.
It's false to me. Ed Sure, I like to feel happy at
times, sure. And more.
I like to feel comfort, but I'm,I don't shy away from emotional
(22:04):
pain because I think that we canlearn a lot from it.
And I want to just feel whateverit is in the moment.
That would be an appropriate feeling.
And I think that comes from years of being an addict where I
was completely numbed out, right?
And I was just acting out with these dangerous men.
So I didn't have to deal with mylife, the fact that my father
(22:26):
had molested me. So I spent years not feeling,
just being numbed out. You know, when you think of
addiction, so most people think of alcohol or drugs, but it's
really your drug of choice. And for me, sex was or dangerous
men or my drug of choice. And so I spent years not feeling
anything that was remotely appropriate.
(22:48):
So yes, so I think that I'm making up for less time.
I'm feeling all the time. I've got all the feelings.
How do you deal with such deeplyemotional and personal issues as
the ones that you've you've talked about, and then apply
that to students when students have to come in and bring that
(23:11):
into a classroom? Yeah.
So that's a really good question.
I mean, I it's a matter of I have to let them know that they
are in a very safe space, that they're not being judged and
that by holding on to sort of their secrets isn't helping.
(23:34):
I mean, because the secrets are there and they're really
weighing you down. You can pretend they're not
there, but they are. It's sort of like this
heavyweight on you, and by writing them, it sort of
releases you. So for example, when I finished
my first book, which was about growing up in this incestuous
family, so for years all of those emotions were just inside
(23:59):
of me. Then I write them and sort of
like they go out on these piecesof paper and then it becomes a
book and the book goes out into the world.
It's freeing. I mean, it's like now the
experience is out there. It's not like on a bookshelf and
it's not inside me anymore. It's really a freeing thing.
And so with my students, you know, I tell them stories like
(24:21):
that, like how my process was and really convince them that
they can do it, that they'll that it's a positive thing.
And I also let them know that I'm with them and they're not
alone, that I'm always going to be with them.
If they're struggling with something, call me, talk to me,
(24:41):
and we'll get through it together.
I mean, that's how I see sort ofthe role of a mentor.
If you could share one piece of advice to younger Sue, perhaps
at your days back at Boston University or even your early
days of VCFA, what, what would you say?
What would you tell her? To not give up, just to believe
(25:03):
in yourself as much as possible.That sort of trait.
It's not really believe that I don't know if I ever believe in
myself. It's just really to not give up
to, even if you don't believe inyourself, just to keep writing,
to be really tenacious and take,if you when you were as writers,
(25:24):
as artists were always going to get rejected.
So to take the rejection and kind of turn it around and say
to yourself, OK, I was rejected,but I know I can do it and I'm
going to show them and I'm goingto show myself.
So it's really about learning the word tenacity and all the
(25:46):
rich ramifications because it's when you say I'm tenacious, it's
been tenacious about your work. It's been tenacious about
yourself that you have to, if you have a relax, OK, you're
going to get over it and you're going to go on.
It's not the end of the world and it's not the rest of your
life. It's a relapse.
(26:06):
You've done it once, you've gotten better, you can do it
again. And so it's just that accessing
your power. And I would so I would tell my
younger self see your power, find your power, claim your
power, show your power, write your power and and then bring
(26:30):
your power to VCFA. What does unapologetically
creative mean to you and your art, your teaching, and in your
life? It's claim, it is claiming your
power, claiming your creativity and don't make excuses.
I mean, I can show myself as this sex addict who, you know,
(26:55):
in our culture, which is a very,you know, misogynistic culture,
I'd be called a slut, homewrecker, whore, all of those
things. Call me that.
I don't that that's on you. I know who I am and I'm
unapologetically claiming this experience as, yes, I struggle
(27:15):
with sex addiction. I wasn't born that way.
I became that way because my father molested me.
I'm going to write about it. And Lovesick was the first
memoir written by a woman on sexaddiction.
And I got so many hundreds of emails and letters from other
women who thanked me for tellingtheir story.
(27:35):
Too right? That's being, by being
unapologetically, you know, created them and claiming that
story, it helped other people. So just like, don't be
embarrassed by your stories. Just really claim yourself.
We all have narratives. We all have more than one
(27:56):
narrative. Claim it and don't apologize.
Put your art out in the world because what lasts in the whole
history of the universe, art lasts.
And you know, we're all, we all struggle with the same things.
This, this narrative might be different, but we all struggle.
(28:17):
We all want to find a home belonging, you know, love.
I have found that here at VCFA. This is my home.
It's my creative home. But it's deeper than that.
It's it is a kind of family I never had because I'm accepted
here. People hear my voice here.
(28:38):
My family never heard my voice. As soon as I came to VCFA, my
voice was heard. And I mean, it's beautiful.
At its core, this episode is about claiming your story and
the power that comes with it. Sue William Silverman reframes
writing as an act of persistence, honesty, and
(29:01):
emotional risk, rather than something that requires
certainty or perfection. The take away is simple but
demanding. Keep going, even without full
clarity, even through discomfort, even in the face of
rejection. Over time, meaning takes shape.
(29:21):
The voice becomes stronger. Being Unapologetically Creative
is not about having it all figured out.
It's about showing up, staying tenacious, and trusting the
process enough to let your truthcome through.
Thanks for listening to Unapologetically Creative.
Be sure to follow the show and stay tuned for more insightful
(29:41):
conversations in the episodes ahead.
To learn more about the Vermont College of Fine Arts, visit
vcfa.edu.
Don't be embarrassed by your stories.
Claim yourself. We all have narratives.
We all have more than one narrative.
Claim it and don't apologize. Welcome to Unapologetically
Created, a podcast from the Vermont College of Fine Arts,
(00:25):
where we celebrate bold artistry, transformative
creativity, and the audacious voices shaping the future of the
arts. I'm your host, Andrew Ram Sammy,
and in this series we dive into honest, inspiring conversations
with artists who are pushing boundaries and redefining what
it means to create work that resonates and endures.
(00:50):
Sue William Silverman is an award-winning author of memoirs,
essays, and poetry, and she's Cochair of the MFA in Writing
program right here at the Vermont College of Fine Arts.
In this episode, she explores the craft and courage behind
creative non fiction, breaking down how writers move beyond
(01:12):
simply recounting what happened to uncover deeper meaning
through reflection, metaphor, and revision, and how even the
smallest moments can hold profound insight.
Through her work. And teaching writing becomes a
process of discovery where understanding only fully emerges
(01:33):
once the story is on the page. Sue, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Andrew. So you've built your career
around creative non fiction, Yes?
How do you define the genre and why is it different than, say,
poetry or fiction? So creative non fiction is
(01:54):
really about self exploration and it's uncovering the
metaphors and a deeper meaning of the self.
You know, we all sort of live our lives and kind of bumble
through and, you know, hope for the best.
And but then at the end of the day, what does it all mean?
And for me and for other creative non fiction writers, it
(02:18):
really is a need to know the self.
But it's not just like a navel gazing thing.
It's really how does the self intersect in a larger way with
the universe? And you know, like I think that
all stories were all sort of political.
You know, if I write about myself, there's also a social
(02:41):
context to it, a political context to it.
So that part is interesting too.But it's just I wanted to really
know who I was before I died. But yeah, it's, it's it's been a
fascinating journey because you know, you think you sort of
(03:01):
understand what's happened to you.
But until you write it, you you really don't, you know, the
surface story. Like I can say this happened to
me and then that happened to me,but you're right, created not
fiction to understand that deeper meaning behind the what
happens. Like what are the metaphors for
my life? So this happened to me, but what
(03:23):
does it mean? How did it affect other things?
So it really is that about self exploration and discovering
metaphor. Does it manifest itself into a
memoir? Like, what are the different
ways that creative nonfiction can go?
So there creative nonfiction is kind of the big umbrella term.
(03:43):
And within creative nonfiction there is memoir, there's
personal essay, there's the lyric essay, there's a
meditative essay, there's speculative nonfiction.
So there's a whole host of things that fall under the wider
umbrella of what of creative nonfiction.
So in the low residency MFA program here that we have a
(04:06):
VCFA, how do you convey the craft of all of that?
And then you combine it into this thing called the unaware
narrator. What is that?
Right. So, well, the unaware narrator
has has to be joined with the aware narrator.
(04:26):
So it's a, it's a package and the unaware narrator really does
represent the what happened during whatever event you're
writing about, right? It's a time something is
happening to you. You're not really, you know,
aware of what's going on, what it means, you're just sort of
living the experience. So then when you come to write a
(04:50):
bit about it, the author narrator, that's the aware voice
tries to make sense of it through reflection and metaphor,
but you also need that what happened.
So creative nonfiction is a constant sort of twinning
together of this unaware narrator with the aware narrator
(05:11):
in order to get a complete picture of what you know, the
episode or the scene, whatever it is you're writing.
And how does 1 establish that? What?
How does one go about doing that?
A lot of practice. That's why you come to VCFA,
because I can teach you. No, it's really, you know,
you'll start out in a scene and you do sort of begin like, well,
(05:36):
this happens and then it's through the revision, lots of
revision that you could dig deeper and deeper and try to
make sense of an experience. And that's where the reflection
comes in. Like this happened to me.
And then the question is, well, why?
And what does it mean? And that's where that aware
voice comes in and it's you're not going to get it on the first
(05:59):
draft. I mean, that is what revision is
for. So by the 10th, 12th, 20th draft
left, you're really digging downdeep and you are making sense of
an experience. So in selected misdemeanors,
it's been described as word grenades that turn fleeting
moments into emotional tsunamis.Wow, that's heavy.
(06:21):
What drew you to this format of what's considered to be flash
and and micro essays? And what is Flash and what are
micro essays? And what do you hope readers
feel in those compressed spaces?So I think what brought me to
flash. So I've written 2 full length
memoirs and then I've written two books that are essay
(06:41):
collections, but the essays are relatively long.
And then I suddenly started seeing my sort of smaller
moments of life. I mean, think about your life
like, these big things will happen.
You know, you'll get married or you get divorced or you get sick
or somebody dies. Those are these big moments in
(07:02):
life. But think about it, your whole
life, all that space in between,there's a lot of time.
Oh, yeah. And how do you make sense of
that time? Because that's the most of what
1's life is. And that's really what brought
me to Flash, is to try to understand these sort of smaller
(07:23):
moments that do in fact, time wise can be small, but they can
also be revelatory, right? And universal.
You know, I think of it sort of as sort of shimmering
epiphanies. And I really wanted to
understand what those quiet, seemingly quieter moments meant.
(07:45):
And I can give you an example. One of the essays is called
Scratching the Surface. And when I was a kid, maybe in
kindergarten, I was roller skating, and I fell and I cut my
knee and, you know, I was bleeding.
And at the time, you know, again, that would be the unaware
of a narrator is that, well, youknow, I hurt my knee and it's
(08:09):
bleeding. But yet that moment never left
me. I felt like something profound
had happened. And then decades later, I'm
writing these slash essays and it's I realized that sort of for
the first time with this cut in my skin, I realized, oh, there's
(08:31):
something deeper here. You know, when you're a kid, you
just sort of there's, you're very surfacey.
You know, here I am, my body. This is just who I am.
And then when I cut myself, I realized there's a whole
interior universe inside of me. And then that led to the and of
course, this is just, these are just realizations that come
(08:52):
through the writing. This is nothing that ever would
have happened if I hadn't written it.
And then I came to the deeper revelation.
Not only was there this whole sort of organic, you know,
blood, bones, organs inside of me, but there's also like a
soul, emotions, urgencies, obsessions, and all of this is
(09:17):
just from kind of just that. One cut, yes.
Right. And most of these flash essays
are do evolve around like an image.
Like this image sort of comes first, and then it's a matter of
sort of deconstructing that image and seeing, well, what
does that image mean? All of these things that you
(09:39):
describe and the way that you'redescribing them, can that be
taught to understand those things, or is it, Does one have
to have such a social emotional awareness to be able to write
that way? It can absolutely be taught and
that is what what I work on withmy students here at VCFA, It's
(10:03):
how to sort of acts. I mean, I think when a lot of
students come in, they're very familiar with that unaware voice
of what happened. And so I would say a large part
of my job as a mentor is to teach them to access, you know,
sort of get in touch with those sensory images and how you can
(10:23):
slant these images so that they become metaphors.
And it's not so hard to understand how to do that
intellectually. But actually doing it on the
page can take time. But that's what the students are
here is to learn how to do that.So yes, it absolutely can be
taught. So the subtitle Essays at the
(10:43):
Mercy of the Reader suggests A risky intimacy between the
reader in what you're writing. How do you balance vulnerability
and craft in writing such personal things, especially when
they include misdemeanors? So I want we, I want this essay
(11:05):
is the mercy of the reader. I do want the reader to have
mercy and forgive my misdemeanors.
You want them to have mercy? And give you mercy.
Give me mercy. Give you mercy.
Yes, yes. To not judge me too harshly for
my misdemeanors. And mind you, I never went to
jail. I never really.
(11:26):
Well, I probably broke some laws, Yeah, but nothing, you
know, Sure. I think we do.
We always say we all. Speed our cars, right?
Yeah, I did a little shopliftingof.
Sue so. Yes, when I was young I did, but
it's a shoplifting is a cry for help.
I mean, it's not. I mean, they're you.
(11:46):
Lose a cry for help then, or youbelieve in then.
No, I mean I did not. Know you didn't know that right
now, you know, right. But.
And was that part of the processof writing that revealed that to
you in that in that writing, yeah.
Absolutely. I mean, I just, I don't know how
to really just think. I don't know how to think until
I write. I mean, that's really how I
(12:07):
learn who I am. And in selected misdemeanors, I
mean, there are are a lot of transgressions that I write
about a lot of adultery. I'm sorry, I feel embarrassed.
Don't but. Thank you for revealing.
Yes. I mean, it was, it's always like
sort of the theme of the book isthis desire sort of for home and
(12:31):
family, which is in conflict with my actual behaviors.
Because so growing up, my fathersexually molested me.
And so I grew up with this sex addiction because I didn't
understand the difference between sex and love because how
(12:52):
would I? Because that's how he showed me
his love. And so I would have affairs with
men who are old enough to be my father because I was clearly
looking for a father. And more than anything, I wanted
like this man I was having an affair with who wouldn't be
married. I wanted them like to adopt me.
I didn't really even want to have the affair, but I didn't
(13:15):
know how to get what I wanted, which was this home.
And so a lot of it is just this kind of offenses, yeah, the
misdemeanors offenses that I kind of brought on myself,
right? You know, I heard.
Because you were pursuing that, pursuing something, but in order
(13:35):
to get that, you would have to do something.
A misdemeanor, Yeah. And I think of it kind of more
like emotional misdemeanors. But so a lot of the tension in
the book is between this kind ofyearning for this home and my
miscalculation as to how to get it.
(13:56):
But I would say that, you know, a lot of the book is sort of
emotionally subversive because it was also about kind of
rebelling against the patriarchyand initially not doing a good
job of it because I didn't understand what I was rebelling
against. But that's part of the
narrator's journey is to understand how to go about
(14:18):
rebelling. Rebelling with A cause, as
opposed to rebelling without a cause.
Is writing for you meant to be therapeutic?
I don't see it as therapeutic. Actually.
I've been in therapy for years. I'm not now, but it's very
different. Therapy is messy and it's all
(14:43):
over the place and it's blood, sweat and tears.
When you're creating art, you have to have more control over
your material. You can't be like bleeding on
the page or weeping it. Yeah, we you don't want to sell
a book that has teardrops on it.So which isn't to say that.
(15:03):
So it's not therapeutic in the the way you would think of that,
that word, but yet. But getting insight into the
self is certainly enlightening and makes me a more whole
person. But I see them as different ways
(15:24):
of sort of obtaining selfhood ina way.
In your crap book, A Settling Tort Songs, it emphasizes
practice over theory. What are the three foundational
practices that you teach emerging nonfiction writers?
So the main things and practices1 is what we're talking about
(15:48):
before about that unaware voice and the aware voice.
That's like really key. Because otherwise I would say
like, say, celebrity memoirs arejust as unaware voices.
Like this happened to me. I know I won this award and you
know, or I got divorced, but it's very surfacey.
That's not but ordinary people like me who are not celebrities,
(16:12):
we write memoir and you need that sort of that dual voice,
that unaware voice overlaid withthe aware voice.
It's going to deepen the work. So that's one.
One thing that's really important in conjunction with
that is metaphor is to, because that's what makes your work
(16:33):
universal. You know, if you write in
generalities like I feel sad, you can't feel my sadness.
It's like a blah word. So what you do is you take a
sensory imagery, sensory, you know, any kind of sensory
imagery that's just, you know, in your current environment and
(16:54):
you craft it in such a way, you slant it in such a way so that
it becomes metaphoric. And a metaphor is universal.
And I could give you an example if you would.
Like please do OK? I feel like I'm in class.
Cool. So in my memoir, Lovesick One
Woman's Journey Through Sexual Addiction, what this one section
(17:18):
is about, I'm a freshman in college and I'm having an affair
with this man who is old enough to be my father.
And he wears this maroon cashmere scarf.
And, you know, so we go on. I can't call it Dave's, but we
go out and have sex. And at one point I really want
(17:39):
this scarf. And so he kind of gives it to
me. I sort of take it.
Anyway, so I'd go back to my dorm and he goes back to his
wife and I had this ruined cashmere scarf.
And for the first, maybe 10 dress of the memoir, it was just
some ruined cashmere scarf. But draft after draft, I felt a
(18:01):
lot of energy around this scarf.I thought, OK, this means
something. So what it came to mean, and the
way I had to describe it was that the scarf is a metaphor for
the fact that I couldn't have the man because for obvious
reasons, all I could have of himwas the scarf.
(18:23):
And so it becomes a metaphor forloss, but also sort of for
comfort again, because I can't have the man, but this very soft
marine cashmere scarf, I can sort of hold it.
And so it becomes like this universal metaphor both for
(18:45):
wanting love and loss and all that.
So by describing this maroon scarf, even though you yourself
have probably never had an affair with a married man old
enough to be your father, let alone who had him ruined scarf,
you can't identify with that. But you can identify with that
feeling of loss or longing for love, because that's a universal
(19:09):
feeling, right? So that's the power of metaphor.
And that's when a major thing that I work with with students
is teaching them how to take these sensory images and
crafting them in such a way so that they become metaphoric so
that your reader can relate to your experience.
(19:30):
Was the scarf from Lovesick? Yes, and that was the book that
was turned into a Lifetime film.That's correct.
Well, I was going to ask you like because a lot of your work
is very reflective on the past. How do you write about something
that it's happening in the now while still remaining reflective
and trying to remain true to thethe craft?
(19:50):
Well, actually love sick. I did write not long after
therapy, not long after the 28th.
Well, maybe a year or so, but itwasn't like the real distant
past. And OK, this is an exclusive.
You've up. You're you're hearing hearing it
(20:11):
here first. When I was writing Love Sick, I
had a relapse. And I mean, it wasn't pretty.
It was really painful and horrible, but I had a relapse.
And so I was still kind of in the addiction, but trying to get
(20:33):
out of it. And in some ways, I think it
helped the writing because it brought me back to the pain of
it, like, oh, my God, I'm here again.
No, I can't be here again. How do I get out of this?
And it was really painful because, like, now I knew
better. I knew this is not going to end
(20:54):
well for anybody, right? But there I was having a
relapse. So I think you don't have to
wait, you know, like years or decades or something for
something to sort of settle downbefore you write about it.
And some of the essays in Selectedness Demeanors, some are
from the distant past, but others are rather current
(21:17):
episodes. So it's really your courage and
your willingness to face something and go deep into it,
even if it's still sort of an open wound.
I have a high tolerance for pain, emotional pain, and I like
(21:40):
that I do. I know most people flee
emotional pain because like, whydon't most people want to be
happy? I'm very leery of just being
happy. That scares me.
It's false to me. Ed Sure, I like to feel happy at
times, sure. And more.
I like to feel comfort, but I'm,I don't shy away from emotional
(22:04):
pain because I think that we canlearn a lot from it.
And I want to just feel whateverit is in the moment.
That would be an appropriate feeling.
And I think that comes from years of being an addict where I
was completely numbed out, right?
And I was just acting out with these dangerous men.
So I didn't have to deal with mylife, the fact that my father
(22:26):
had molested me. So I spent years not feeling,
just being numbed out. You know, when you think of
addiction, so most people think of alcohol or drugs, but it's
really your drug of choice. And for me, sex was or dangerous
men or my drug of choice. And so I spent years not feeling
anything that was remotely appropriate.
(22:48):
So yes, so I think that I'm making up for less time.
I'm feeling all the time. I've got all the feelings.
How do you deal with such deeplyemotional and personal issues as
the ones that you've you've talked about, and then apply
that to students when students have to come in and bring that
(23:11):
into a classroom? Yeah.
So that's a really good question.
I mean, I it's a matter of I have to let them know that they
are in a very safe space, that they're not being judged and
that by holding on to sort of their secrets isn't helping.
(23:34):
I mean, because the secrets are there and they're really
weighing you down. You can pretend they're not
there, but they are. It's sort of like this
heavyweight on you, and by writing them, it sort of
releases you. So for example, when I finished
my first book, which was about growing up in this incestuous
family, so for years all of those emotions were just inside
(23:59):
of me. Then I write them and sort of
like they go out on these piecesof paper and then it becomes a
book and the book goes out into the world.
It's freeing. I mean, it's like now the
experience is out there. It's not like on a bookshelf and
it's not inside me anymore. It's really a freeing thing.
And so with my students, you know, I tell them stories like
(24:21):
that, like how my process was and really convince them that
they can do it, that they'll that it's a positive thing.
And I also let them know that I'm with them and they're not
alone, that I'm always going to be with them.
If they're struggling with something, call me, talk to me,
(24:41):
and we'll get through it together.
I mean, that's how I see sort ofthe role of a mentor.
If you could share one piece of advice to younger Sue, perhaps
at your days back at Boston University or even your early
days of VCFA, what, what would you say?
What would you tell her? To not give up, just to believe
(25:03):
in yourself as much as possible.That sort of trait.
It's not really believe that I don't know if I ever believe in
myself. It's just really to not give up
to, even if you don't believe inyourself, just to keep writing,
to be really tenacious and take,if you when you were as writers,
(25:24):
as artists were always going to get rejected.
So to take the rejection and kind of turn it around and say
to yourself, OK, I was rejected,but I know I can do it and I'm
going to show them and I'm goingto show myself.
So it's really about learning the word tenacity and all the
(25:46):
rich ramifications because it's when you say I'm tenacious, it's
been tenacious about your work. It's been tenacious about
yourself that you have to, if you have a relax, OK, you're
going to get over it and you're going to go on.
It's not the end of the world and it's not the rest of your
life. It's a relapse.
(26:06):
You've done it once, you've gotten better, you can do it
again. And so it's just that accessing
your power. And I would so I would tell my
younger self see your power, find your power, claim your
power, show your power, write your power and and then bring
(26:30):
your power to VCFA. What does unapologetically
creative mean to you and your art, your teaching, and in your
life? It's claim, it is claiming your
power, claiming your creativity and don't make excuses.
I mean, I can show myself as this sex addict who, you know,
(26:55):
in our culture, which is a very,you know, misogynistic culture,
I'd be called a slut, homewrecker, whore, all of those
things. Call me that.
I don't that that's on you. I know who I am and I'm
unapologetically claiming this experience as, yes, I struggle
(27:15):
with sex addiction. I wasn't born that way.
I became that way because my father molested me.
I'm going to write about it. And Lovesick was the first
memoir written by a woman on sexaddiction.
And I got so many hundreds of emails and letters from other
women who thanked me for tellingtheir story.
(27:35):
Too right? That's being, by being
unapologetically, you know, created them and claiming that
story, it helped other people. So just like, don't be
embarrassed by your stories. Just really claim yourself.
We all have narratives. We all have more than one
(27:56):
narrative. Claim it and don't apologize.
Put your art out in the world because what lasts in the whole
history of the universe, art lasts.
And you know, we're all, we all struggle with the same things.
This, this narrative might be different, but we all struggle.
(28:17):
We all want to find a home belonging, you know, love.
I have found that here at VCFA. This is my home.
It's my creative home. But it's deeper than that.
It's it is a kind of family I never had because I'm accepted
here. People hear my voice here.
(28:38):
My family never heard my voice. As soon as I came to VCFA, my
voice was heard. And I mean, it's beautiful.
At its core, this episode is about claiming your story and
the power that comes with it. Sue William Silverman reframes
writing as an act of persistence, honesty, and
(29:01):
emotional risk, rather than something that requires
certainty or perfection. The take away is simple but
demanding. Keep going, even without full
clarity, even through discomfort, even in the face of
rejection. Over time, meaning takes shape.
(29:21):
The voice becomes stronger. Being Unapologetically Creative
is not about having it all figured out.
It's about showing up, staying tenacious, and trusting the
process enough to let your truthcome through.
Thanks for listening to Unapologetically Creative.
Be sure to follow the show and stay tuned for more insightful
(29:41):
conversations in the episodes ahead.
To learn more about the Vermont College of Fine Arts, visit
vcfa.edu.
Popular Podcasts
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com