November 19, 2025 • 32 mins
Daniel Nayeri explores how specific details in a story can reveal something universal. He reflects on his fascination with “welcome,” from inviting strangers into his home for dinner to the moment characters meet around a fire, and discusses the role of food in his life and how being a pastry chef shaped his sense of pleasure, honesty, and craft. Daniel also shares what readers have taught him about vulnerability, why trusting his own palate matters, and how children and adults bring different emotional tools to stories, showing how specificity and truth help readers see pieces of their own lives in someone else’s story.
0:41 Introduction of Daniel Nayeri and Everything Sad Is Untrue.
1:14 The idea of “welcome” and storytelling through food.
2:27 Shoes on or off? Cultural norms and politeness as storytelling entry points.
3:47 Hosting strangers: the publisher’s reaction and surprising outcomes.
4:38 Unexpected connections — photographers, dinners, and shared creative space.
5:05 Daniel’s philosophy: everyone begins with welcome, but it can be lost.
5:54 Campfire metaphor: the moment two strangers negotiate trust.
7:33 Visualization and metaphor: crafting scenes with all five senses.
10:02 Life as a pastry chef: honest reactions in an open kitchen.
11:40 Applying the pastry chef mindset to writing.
13:52 Entertainment vs. art: palate cleansers and deeper meaning.
14:48 Why art isn’t just “chocolate and cocaine.”
15:34 Cooking and fighting: Daniel’s primary metaphors for truth.
16:35 Mike Tyson’s “everyone has a plan until they get punched.”
18:18 “Trust your palate”: the chef’s lesson on honesty.
19:04 Why trusting your own palate matters creatively.
20:08 Writing for children: appropriateness and development.
21:26 Children’s emotional depth and articulation.
26:07 Emails from readers and the weight of their stories.
29:03 Seeing ourselves everywhere; anthropomorphizing the world.
29:35 Art’s purpose: inviting others in without dehumanizing them.
30:30 Being unapologetically creative as a primal human act.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
The more specific you go, the more people will sympathize with
it. I That's a really odd paradox
though, isn't it? Like the the more, the more I
express the most niche parts of my experience and thoughts, the
more people might look at it andgo I I have a thing like that.
(00:26):
Welcome to Unapologetically Creative, a podcast from the
Vermont College of Fine Arts, where we celebrate bold
artistry, transformative creativity, and the audacious
voices shaping the future of thearts.
I'm your host Andrew Ram Sammy, and in this series we dive into
honest, inspiring conversations with artists who are pushing
(00:50):
boundaries and redefining what it means to create work that
resonates and endures. Daniel Neary is the author of
the award-winning memoir Everything Sad Is Untrue.
A true. Story the book.
Won a Michael L Prince Award andwas named one of the best books
(01:10):
of the year by The New York Times and NPR.
In this episode, Daniel talks about the idea of welcome, how
food becomes both a metaphor anda gathering place, and how
stories balance pleasure, truth,and vulnerability.
He also shares lessons from his time as a pastry chef and
explains why trusting your creative.
(01:31):
Palette. Can make stories feel more
universal. Daniel, welcome to
Unapologetically Creative. Thank you for having me.
I feel like everybody says thankyou for having me at the
beginning of podcast. Should we?
What if I just said like, keep it, keep it snappy, bud?
Then that's yeah. Oh, yeah, You you snappy?
I wasn't. Yeah.
(01:53):
I got, I got, I got 37 minutes and then I got to catch a plane.
And in your case, it's not a plane, it's a motorcycle.
Yeah. Oh, OK.
No, that's not how I would begin.
Thank you for having me. I just, I just wanted to maybe
zig a little, you know, sometimes that well, that didn't
work. Let me go with just grateful.
Thank you for having me. It is truly an honor to have you
here. It's awesome.
(02:14):
Thanks. I mean, what are you supposed to
say? I'm so it's.
Impossible to come up with anything better.
Like you really just have to saythanks.
Thanks. Like when you walk into
someone's house, I mean, you can't just start appraising the
foyer like, oh, you know, it waslacquer.
Floor unless I were to say in myhouse or in certain houses as
many of us come from other cultures.
I'm sorry, but can you take? Your shoes off.
(02:36):
Oh, I'm a big take your shoes off.
There was recently I saw some, maybe it was someone spouting
off on the Internet, but they were talking about how they felt
as if it was rude to ask people to take their shoes off.
And I was like, Oh no, I can never get on board with this
take. Like it's rude not to take your
shoes off. You need to take.
Just assume you're going to takeyour shoes off.
I mean, now we're just talking about politeness and this.
(02:57):
Is what I write about this is what I think about welcome
constantly. I think about this if you were
to talk about big themes and things I and you know why it's
really important is because people as you know, like when
you like I used to have this forone of my books.
You know, the publicity kind of like promo for it was called
welcome Everybody that was hashtag welcome everybody.
(03:19):
And the whole notion was like I was on my socials on Monday.
I would just post the hashtag with a date and then the first
six people who DM me could just would get an invite to my house.
And this is when I live in New York.
And the four Saturday evening dinner, like family dinner.
And so 6 random people would show up and I would do like a
(03:40):
full 3 course, right? We had like the charcuterie
platter and all that stuff. Everybody is kind of getting to
know each other and then the entree comes out and then a
dessert course and it's and people.
And I remember when I first pitched this to the publisher,
they were like, are you nuts? People will come and like kill
you. Like I was like, I'm first of
all, I write for children on theInternet.
Like, like the people who followme are not, are pretty self
(04:03):
selecting group of very nice people.
But second of all, like I, I just, I didn't feel the same.
I don't know, I guess fear around it.
I felt as if it would work and Iwas really pleased that it did.
Like everybody showed up. Everybody was more or less
respectful. There were definitely some, you
know, combinations that didn't work as well over and then it's
like, fine, you just had like a dinner with some people and that
(04:25):
didn't mesh as well. But most of the time the combo
was amazing. Like my favorite time to
describe is one time four of thesix people were photographers in
New York, but completely different types of photography.
Like one person was runaway, onewas did like head shots for
people. One was for one of those
companies that like sends you food like that blue ribbon kind
(04:46):
of thing. And they just like did food
photography in the studio all day and they just all started
talking shop for the next three hours.
And they were super into their all came like network friends of
each other. And I just sat there and I only
understood about 40% of what they were talking about.
But it worked. And I love that.
But as a result, sometimes people think, well, Daniel sort
(05:08):
of just thinks he's just completely open on this concept
of welcome everybody. And the answer is yes, at the
outset, a host job, or at least my position in life, my, my like
posture is you start with a welcome, but there are
absolutely things you can do that that, you know, sort of
(05:31):
remove that welcome. And there's a whole procedure
for that as well, right? Like, but it doesn't.
But everybody starts with one, and I think of that as my
generally like as a theme. I think about my characters
think that way often. I was like, how how do we engage
with a stranger? You know, how does 1 You know,
even in like in a western, you know how you know you're you're
(05:52):
by yourself. It's dark, everything is
dangerous. Things will kill you.
You're you've just started a fire.
You have one can of beans that you are in a lawless place.
And then all of a sudden you hear a rustle and someone steps
out of a of. The brush.
And you look at each other and you're like, well, this person
(06:13):
might have just followed the light into toward me, right of
my fire, or they might be hungry, or they might be here to
kill me. And frankly, they'd get the
whole can of beans if they did kill me.
And I might only be worth a can of beans to this human being.
And and you're so there's a sudden assessment, this
question. No one's here to help you.
There's just the two of you and you're negotiating a welcome
(06:35):
around a fire and a question of who and what to share in this,
you know, environment. And you might, you might offer
half your beans and they might offer as a result, like what a
delight if they are they, you know, offered half of whatever
they have. And, and you share the fire and
then you exchange stories. And now all of a sudden there's
(06:56):
two of you and you're far more protected.
But there is a moment, there's amoment where they step out of
the brush where it's completely lawless.
And what we're negotiating here is each other's lives.
And I think that I think about that all the time.
And like in in other civilized contexts, I think about it is
that fundamental to almost all our negotiations is like
(07:19):
backstopped by in every negotiation is an act of
violence. And and we just constantly have
to take that off the table and welcome each other.
And so. Yeah, that is, yeah, that I
write about that. I feel like we were on task.
I feel like we were. That entire time I've been
(07:41):
looking at you and you've been looking up into the left, what
are you seeing? I'm well, I'm imagining what I'm
describing, right? So I'm like a lot of times when
I am like I think in terms of when I'm thinking in terms of a
metaphor, I am trying to craft it with all 5 senses.
(08:02):
And so I in that moment, what I was seeing was, was the
underbrush. Did you smell the the fire?
I was trying to, yeah, I was trying to, yeah, like, And then
which of these details matter inwhat is essentially like, And
also, you know, and if I pick the wrong ones, then I'm just
bloviating and boring you. No, but you're very selective.
You were. I mean, I was there with you.
(08:22):
I was like, where's this going? And I'm hungry.
Can of beans what a stereotypical thing to have.
But the welcome itself. That that that setup of of
either the character or the characters or the scene.
Where does that come? From where does that starting
point for you in terms of the welcome come from?
(08:42):
Well, I mean, that metaphor extends itself to we could have
had that exact same metaphor, except it's two kids in a
cafeteria and one of them's holding its tray of food and the
other one's sitting at an empty table, right?
And it's the same negotiation. And it's not life or death, but
it's social life. So this is now the like second
or third time we've talked aboutfood.
Food. First time when you're talking
(09:04):
about the setting of bringing people in.
Second time we've talking about the setting, you know, the
campfire and the and the the canof beans.
Third time cafeteria What's going on with food now?
Oh, I mean food. Food is how the center of almost
all my social interactions. Like, I, I mean, and this is how
tiresome is it for someone to belike, let me tell you about my
culture. We like food.
(09:26):
I really want to meet the personwho's like, we don't like food
and we don't like family. And nobody sits around the table
talking like, OK, cool. Yeah.
Let me tell you about my Mama. She likes to feed people.
Yeah. Which is true.
But yeah. So.
Yeah, I think. Are these things that are
natural, natural, well they justcome naturally to you?
Or is it from a place that was built in DNA wise, embedded in
(09:51):
family or embedded in culture? Where are these things coming
from? That, you know, that's a
challenge. I mean, which came first, right?
Early on, I realized I could cook pretty well.
And then you get encouraged in that.
And I went and became a chef fora while, a pastry chef and man,
the best feeling in the world. You want, you want to know if
you're in an I was in an open kitchen and in an open kitchen,
(10:11):
the chefs will they, they keep it cool.
But one of the things that's always happening is they're
always going like you send, you send out like a, let's say a row
of desserts and the, you know, the waiters taking it around,
you know, and it's, it's landingat the table and you might not
notice them, but they are absolutely watching.
And what they're watching for isthis thing where when someone
(10:34):
put something into their mouth that they like, they involuntary
involuntarily start to like nod their head.
It's just, there's like a yes happening.
And it feels so good when you'rea chef and you're watching
everybody just put it in their mouth and nod.
If they don't like it, there's like an actual, there's like a
freeze moment because there's like a fight or flight thing
kicks in and they're like, should I like swallow this like
(10:58):
a meet? There's an immediate reaction.
And so you get your review then.So I think in general, you know,
as a chef, you become, I wouldn't say a Dick, but you
definitely become like very honed in on that feedback loop
of, oh, they liked it, they liked it.
It's my job to make something that pleases.
(11:19):
The word pleasant is really important.
You know, like I think there aresome chefs who are out there as
artists who want to like challenge your palate or want to
push. That's not most pastry chefs I
know are the exact opposite. Like pastries in particular.
They're like, no, I want you to put in your mouth and be like,
this is the best dessert I've ever had.
Like I want you happy. I want you joyful.
Like Wonka makes sense. Like I want you to enjoy the
(11:44):
thing that I've made and are. You doing the same thing with
your writing. Yeah, I would.
I yes, although I mean writing encapsulates more than just
putting something in your mouth and so, but across the course of
the entire project, Yeah, absolutely.
I want you to be, Yeah, I want you to be pleased, I and I, and
(12:06):
now, but I also want to, in the course of a book, start to
negotiate with that, with your pleasure to say like, now I know
you'll be pleased if I just giveyou the funniest ha ha.
And like just saccharine a storyever.
I know that would actually please you.
And there's a lot of channels for that.
And you can get, would it also please you if we took a little
(12:30):
bit of a journey to your childhood and you were in such a
state of, I don't know, simpatico with this story.
The specificity of the story haduniversalized itself in your
heart. And you were able to take it in
as almost a reminder of something of your own.
(12:51):
And we took you through the hardparts and we took you through
the the painful parts. But we got to a better place and
we got to a, a satisfaction thatis greater than sugar.
Would that also please you? Would you be pleased if we
discovered something about you that you hadn't yet seen?
Would would that be a, an insight or a, a piece that that
(13:18):
is on offer that goes through some bitterness and goes
through, you know, if we could do that, would you, would you
have a greater appreciation? Right.
And then now we have, we're starting to get some depth of
flavor and we're starting to getsome depth of thought.
And, and so, and that's a negotiation because if you start
in a book, I think a lot of people do this, you start
(13:41):
without having won them over andyou're like, let me just told
you about like the, you know, some dark stuff.
And so then I, it's very possible that a reader just
doesn't stick with you, right. I do think we're negotiating the
reader's pleasure, which is another way of saying, you know,
I think this is the this is another thought in the question
(14:01):
of like entertainment versus art.
Entertainment is nothing but pleasure and art is this depth
of understanding. And I, and I think fundamentally
that that neither of these two camps are addressing what's
happening, which is we're negotiating in the same way of
like, does this, does this please, like in a top ass
restaurant or in a chef's menu? Like we're watching, we're
(14:23):
trying, you know, there's, we'repushing and pulling.
And because like, why otherwise,why wouldn't every chef's menu
be chocolate and cocaine? Now here you go.
Your system will take these two things and you'll be whooping
and hollering. And which one comes first, the
cocaine or the? Chocolate, it's just the
chocolate cocaine on chocolate. No, I just mean like those
(14:44):
things like I don't I don't do cocaine, just to be clear in
case of my listeners. I mean, like that would be these
like just utter chemicals that pump into your body that I'm
told create like, you know, likestimulus and it's like those are
that's sugar, by the way, does that.
There's like dopamine rushes andit's like, why isn't that what
(15:06):
like the poppiest of entertainment is on, you know,
as a analog to food. They don't do we don't do that
right. We don't we take them through a
like AI mean a good chef's menu is taking you through one is the
word cycles right. You're there are such things as
palate cleansers and and but sudden like bursts of flavour,
(15:28):
but also now we pull back. And I just like saying Amus.
Bouche, I just Amus. Yeah, there you go.
First we dig in. Amus.
Bouche Yeah. So I mean, I, I, maybe I, I sort
of too grandly answered that question, but I think, I think
that is what we're saying when we're describing, when I'm, when
I'm describing like food as a metaphor for art.
(15:51):
Yeah. Are there other metaphors that
you use or is that is is that a a reliable one for you to
connect with? The I think the two, yeah, the
two most common metaphors I use in life are cooking and
fighting. Those metaphors just come up a
lot, I think. I think, you know, I'll tell you
(16:13):
why. Because of the word true.
There's there's two things aboutthose metaphors that are really,
they're really important to me because they're constantly, they
ground you in reality. Here's I'll be specific.
In both of them, I have a phrasethat is pops into my head all
the time and they speak to reality versus delusion.
(16:35):
And the first in fighting is, ofcourse, the quote from the great
Mike Tyson, which is everybody'sgot a plan until they get
punched in the face. What a great and short and pithy
thought that's effectively everybody believes they can
manifest their own desires untilthe reality of the world strikes
them in the face. That is just a longer and less
(16:58):
articulate version of Tyson's. Everybody's got a plan till they
get punched in the face. And on the food side, there's a,
the quote is less famous becauseit's from my, a chef that I used
to work for. And it was, it only happened in
the context of when we would make dishes.
So we would try to set a menu and those executive chef would
sit and she would eat the food that we were sort of like
(17:21):
pitching to enter the new season's menu.
And I was a dessert person. So, you know, I would put
something up and she would, you know, put it in her mouth.
And she was a very, very, she had a very discerning taste.
And I love like a floral things like I love Annis and lavender
and orange blossom. I love rose water.
I come from it to it honestly. So I had made like a flight of
(17:44):
ice creams that were like florals and they were served on
edible flowers. I was like, this is going to be
huge. So I had like a, what was it?
It was a Annis ice cream with dark chocolate chunks and
orange. It was, I thought it was the
best flavor I've ever had. And she put it in her mouth and
she just, her face screws up andshe just goes.
(18:07):
And she was British. And the worst criticism she
could ever say was it's not verynice, is it?
And that meant like, go, you arefired, you're disgusting person.
But she said it's not very nice.Is it?
And there wasn't a question markat the end of that sent.
No, no, definitely wasn't. And I remember my, the boss who
I worked for every day, not the executive chef who was like over
(18:29):
everything. My boss kind of just goes like
she like breathes in like Oh no.And anyway, I was kind of like
bummed out at the end of that. My my flight of ice creams did
not make it and I was bummed out.
And she just goes, look, all youever have is your palate.
Like don't blame her. Like don't blame her because
it's like she, it's not that shedoesn't get it, it's that all
you ever have as a chef is your palate.
(18:51):
And she goes, look, if I put something in my mouth and it's
salty and you start trying to argue with me, like, well, I
didn't put that much salt in there.
It doesn't matter. You can't come into my mouth and
argue with my tongue. My tongue told me it was salty.
It's forever salty. That's all that can ever be.
But you must trust your palate because the second you look to
her and she says this flavor isn't good, but your tongue
(19:14):
loves it and but, and you say, well, it must not be very good,
you are adrift because you're not even trusting your own
tongue anymore. Like as a chef, you only have
your palate. She disagrees with you.
She's your boss. Take it off the menu, but keep
it. It's good.
It's good to you. And you'll someday you'll find
if you were the chef, you could serve it to 100 people and I
(19:36):
don't know, God willing, like 90of them would love it.
Maybe 60, maybe 20, who knows? But you only ever have your
palate. And that's again, it's this
calibration of don't, don't losesight of these things.
Don't let other people's voices like start to take away from the
intrinsic stuff. That doesn't mean don't listen
to advice there, but there are intrinsic stuff, in this case
(19:59):
your tongue. And if you start distrusting
that you are as an artist, as a chef.
You are adrift like you're. I don't even know what you'll be
cooking. So the palette of an adult is
very different than the palette of a child.
How do you approach both those palettes in terms of writing?
That's a great question. Well, I mean, if, if a work is
(20:25):
specifically going to be targeted to a child, there are
like, I think they're important heuristics and observances you
have to have, right? Like several, I mean
observances, there are some thatare bedrock, right?
Like, you know, like appropriateness, right, That I
just generally sort of fit into what I would call just an
(20:47):
objective. Like these are the rules for
interacting with someone who's young, whom you can harm in ways
that you just shouldn't. And so that's a whole separate
category, but over here in the subjective category would be
little would be sort of I, I would call sort of child
development concepts that are helpful for a, a artist targeted
(21:14):
toward children to study and think about.
So I used to have a boss who wasa legend in children's books.
And she used to say a phrase that's always stuck with me.
She said children are no less intelligent than adults.
They're far less informed. And what she was trying to
express was this idea that children do not have emotional
(21:35):
lives that are any less complicated than ours.
Like they have the like it wherever they are, they have the
same feelings that we do. The feelings of like nervousness
walking into a daycare or, you know, fear of, you know, being
either unaccepted or left behind.
All of these like things that weas adults have sort of
(21:57):
sublimated into such complex anddeep thoughts that only, you
know, the literary masters can teach us about.
These children have they just don't have the words to identify
them the way we do, right? They do not.
They, they have a far less granular emotion recognition
machine and part of your task asa artist toward these kids is to
(22:20):
help them develop that, right? That's, that's what on some
level coming of age, that's whatcoming of age is, is starting to
be able to articulate the complexities of the adult world
to yourself and to be able to mature in these ways.
So I, I think in general, like the palette of a child, I take
on the posture of far less the posture of like, let me
(22:44):
challenge you, let me be adversarial, let me be I, I, I'm
that's just far less that it's far more nurturing.
It's far more the task of, you know, I think gentle mentorship
or education like these are, these are the tools that, you
know, we're like, we're trying to, we want art to offer to
(23:06):
children. It isn't it why we say art is
good for it's like literally thereason we say kids should read,
kids should see art. It's like, why?
It's like, well, for this emotional development, like
social development, these are the ideas, right?
But some might approach that if we continue with the food
analogy and just say, well, kidsonly like macaroni and cheese
and pizza and hot dogs and hamburgers.
(23:27):
And I think you're doing more than just offering that up.
Well, we know for a fact or we know that if somebody is going
to only eat the things you just mentioned, they're going to have
an unhealthy and poorly rounded and perhaps even short life,
right? So we know that that isn't the
entirety of what they should experience in life.
So yes, to follow that metaphor,the challenge is to maybe begin
(23:51):
there, but also start to again in the negotiation of 1's
pleasure, right? OK, I can do Mac and cheese.
I can definitely do a Mac and cheese that you'll like.
That also has some of the thingsthat I want you to taste.
I'll just let's start with Gruyere.
Let's start with funkier cheesesthan you're used to.
Fontina is awesome. And Mac and cheese.
I mean, I'm going to start building your palette into some
(24:13):
of the Frenchest cheeses you've ever had.
And then and the same with any of you know, at least, I mean,
if you know the meta does not, you know, sort of wear the
metaphor out. But, but I do think yes, then
your task to a kid who has a very limited food palette would
be to take them into adulthood. By the time you take them into
(24:35):
adulthood, build them up, build,you know, build and help them be
broad. So let's talk about everything
Sad is untrue. There's oral tradition in that.
There's a lot of personal experience that you've put into
that that's turned into a universal story.
People have, I mean, it's, it's,it's, it's had tremendous impact
(24:58):
earning awards and and reaching readers worldwide.
What has the response of of thatbook taught you in terms about
the power of storytelling? Well, so, you know, it's funny.
I didn't expect that. And as a result, I might have
been less forthcoming with the more embarrassing stories about
myself. Up until that book, they hadn't,
(25:20):
you know, I hadn't, I hadn't hadthat kind of attention.
And so I think maybe I was lulled into a false sense of
privacy. I was like.
You're like, no. One's reading this, nobody's
going to read this. So that's a lesson I definitely
learned. No, but, but also I, I think, I
think, yeah, broadly speaking, Imean it, it has, it's been, it's
(25:41):
been an incredible ride. I, I think it has definitely, as
a writer, it has absolutely taught me that readers, and
we've been talking about this like readers will reward a
truthful and maybe a vulnerable and very specific experience by
(26:04):
coming to it and opening themselves up.
Like I, another way to say it isI, I about 3 * a week, I get an,
I get emails from people who they'll write nice things, you
know, like often they'll write nice things and they, you know,
they say thank you and all the, all the pleasantries and then
(26:24):
they write like paragraphs and paragraphs of their own lives.
And some of these, sometimes it's quite heavy something, but
it's, I mean, it is their like almost reply to my book and it's
their life story. And it's, it's, it's all over
the place. You know, I've, I've gotten
emails from, I mean, you, you name it, the sort of the range
(26:47):
of people's experiences and lives.
And, and so, so on Fridays I sitdown and try to respond to them.
So Fridays are kind of a heavy day for me because first I take
in all these stories, right? And it's like some of them, some
of them involve a lot of grief and a lot of, you know, pain
and, and things like that. And then and then they try to
respond by saying, like, isn't this incredible?
(27:08):
Like, isn't this an incredible and grateful thing that we are
we can share, right? Is that this idea that you read,
you read the story of just some obnoxious little Persian boy who
comes to Oklahoma and is remainsobnoxious and doesn't isn't
doesn't fit in probably because of his fault and isn't what the
program and then like tells a bunch of stories and those
(27:31):
stories are extremely specific and some of them are funny and
some of them are tragic and but they you could absolutely look
at that and be like, that has nothing to do with me.
I think the generosity of, you know, a reader, you know, it's
kind of often not as celebrated,right.
But I, I get the opportunity to celebrate it every week where I
(27:54):
respond to these people and go thank you for looking at my
work. Thank you for coming at it with
an open enough heart to see yourself in it, even though we
could not be more different. So that lesson has been has
been, you know, it's a, it's a common adage in writing that the
specific becomes universal. And the more specific you go,
the more people will sympathize with it.
(28:18):
I that's a really odd paradox, though, isn't it?
Like the, the more the more I express the most niche parts of
my experience and thoughts, the more people might look at it and
go, I have a thing like that. I have a.
And so that, yeah, that's been the major lesson of this book.
So that's specificity, that fingerprint, that nuance that.
(28:42):
And you say niche, but it's not necessarily niche.
Well, so it turns out, right? Yeah.
We all have pain. We all have.
We all have these feelings. None of them are unique to me,
right? Yeah, you're right.
But the more you 0 in on that, the more you find people who
then respond to that in a in a in a universal way, but from
their own perspective. Yeah, they personalize it.
(29:03):
We're so, we're so good at doingthat.
I, I'm, I love that phenomenon that human beings can see faces
and everything, you know, like there's like photographers out
there who will just take pictures of like the front of
cars and like the two bed lightson a grill always just look like
a happy face to us and like, we're like.
Anthropomorphizing, you know. There's like we like slice an
onion like in half and the middle just looks like a little
(29:25):
happy baby. Like it's just to us.
We see ourselves. We see ourselves.
That's humanity, right? The innate nature of wanting to
see. And I love that.
I, I think actually that can be harnessed.
And part part of art's purpose is to, you know, as as opposed
to the opposite of just like dehumanizing other human, you
(29:45):
know, like this is this is the work that a novel does as you
go. This is the most specific
version of me. And you are welcome to see
yourself if you like. And that's kind of that's an
amazing. Awesome.
What does it mean to be unapologetically creative?
It is to understand that to create is the third primal
(30:09):
action of the human life outsideof survival and reproduction is
the function of worship, which is the function of creating,
right? We create out of an abundance of
fascination or love for something.
(30:31):
And this we do in the same like instinctive way 'cause we were
created to do it as we do our survival instinct and our
reproductive instinct, everything.
And at my and my belief is that we, every human does it.
So you know, I think the unapologetic part is because
(30:55):
it's beyond the reproach of being correct or incorrect.
It simply is we create. Now what do we create?
Do we create nothing but chaos in a family we are actively, you
know, working to destroy or do we create peace and beauty and,
(31:17):
you know, joy? These are, you know, but we
create. We create in the same way that
we, we metabolize, right? Like we just, we just do, we go
around creating. Now the question is, should you
apologize for what you created? Daniel's reflections reveal how
(31:38):
stories can turn the smallest, most powerful details into
something that resonates far beyond the self.
From inviting strangers to dinner, to writing about
children's memories to navigating the line between
entertainment and art, his perspective highlights the ways
that creativity can open doors and spark recognition across
(31:59):
differences. And Speaking of welcome, if you
do get that invitation, don't forget to take off your shoes.
Thanks for listening to Unapologetically Created.
Be sure to follow the show. And stay tuned.
For more insightful conversations in the episodes
ahead to learn more about the Vermont College of Fine Arts,
(32:20):
visit vcfa.edu.
The more specific you go, the more people will sympathize with
it. I That's a really odd paradox
though, isn't it? Like the the more, the more I
express the most niche parts of my experience and thoughts, the
more people might look at it andgo I I have a thing like that.
(00:26):
Welcome to Unapologetically Creative, a podcast from the
Vermont College of Fine Arts, where we celebrate bold
artistry, transformative creativity, and the audacious
voices shaping the future of thearts.
I'm your host Andrew Ram Sammy, and in this series we dive into
honest, inspiring conversations with artists who are pushing
(00:50):
boundaries and redefining what it means to create work that
resonates and endures. Daniel Neary is the author of
the award-winning memoir Everything Sad Is Untrue.
A true. Story the book.
Won a Michael L Prince Award andwas named one of the best books
(01:10):
of the year by The New York Times and NPR.
In this episode, Daniel talks about the idea of welcome, how
food becomes both a metaphor anda gathering place, and how
stories balance pleasure, truth,and vulnerability.
He also shares lessons from his time as a pastry chef and
explains why trusting your creative.
(01:31):
Palette. Can make stories feel more
universal. Daniel, welcome to
Unapologetically Creative. Thank you for having me.
I feel like everybody says thankyou for having me at the
beginning of podcast. Should we?
What if I just said like, keep it, keep it snappy, bud?
Then that's yeah. Oh, yeah, You you snappy?
I wasn't. Yeah.
(01:53):
I got, I got, I got 37 minutes and then I got to catch a plane.
And in your case, it's not a plane, it's a motorcycle.
Yeah. Oh, OK.
No, that's not how I would begin.
Thank you for having me. I just, I just wanted to maybe
zig a little, you know, sometimes that well, that didn't
work. Let me go with just grateful.
Thank you for having me. It is truly an honor to have you
here. It's awesome.
(02:14):
Thanks. I mean, what are you supposed to
say? I'm so it's.
Impossible to come up with anything better.
Like you really just have to saythanks.
Thanks. Like when you walk into
someone's house, I mean, you can't just start appraising the
foyer like, oh, you know, it waslacquer.
Floor unless I were to say in myhouse or in certain houses as
many of us come from other cultures.
I'm sorry, but can you take? Your shoes off.
(02:36):
Oh, I'm a big take your shoes off.
There was recently I saw some, maybe it was someone spouting
off on the Internet, but they were talking about how they felt
as if it was rude to ask people to take their shoes off.
And I was like, Oh no, I can never get on board with this
take. Like it's rude not to take your
shoes off. You need to take.
Just assume you're going to takeyour shoes off.
I mean, now we're just talking about politeness and this.
(02:57):
Is what I write about this is what I think about welcome
constantly. I think about this if you were
to talk about big themes and things I and you know why it's
really important is because people as you know, like when
you like I used to have this forone of my books.
You know, the publicity kind of like promo for it was called
welcome Everybody that was hashtag welcome everybody.
(03:19):
And the whole notion was like I was on my socials on Monday.
I would just post the hashtag with a date and then the first
six people who DM me could just would get an invite to my house.
And this is when I live in New York.
And the four Saturday evening dinner, like family dinner.
And so 6 random people would show up and I would do like a
(03:40):
full 3 course, right? We had like the charcuterie
platter and all that stuff. Everybody is kind of getting to
know each other and then the entree comes out and then a
dessert course and it's and people.
And I remember when I first pitched this to the publisher,
they were like, are you nuts? People will come and like kill
you. Like I was like, I'm first of
all, I write for children on theInternet.
Like, like the people who followme are not, are pretty self
(04:03):
selecting group of very nice people.
But second of all, like I, I just, I didn't feel the same.
I don't know, I guess fear around it.
I felt as if it would work and Iwas really pleased that it did.
Like everybody showed up. Everybody was more or less
respectful. There were definitely some, you
know, combinations that didn't work as well over and then it's
like, fine, you just had like a dinner with some people and that
(04:25):
didn't mesh as well. But most of the time the combo
was amazing. Like my favorite time to
describe is one time four of thesix people were photographers in
New York, but completely different types of photography.
Like one person was runaway, onewas did like head shots for
people. One was for one of those
companies that like sends you food like that blue ribbon kind
(04:46):
of thing. And they just like did food
photography in the studio all day and they just all started
talking shop for the next three hours.
And they were super into their all came like network friends of
each other. And I just sat there and I only
understood about 40% of what they were talking about.
But it worked. And I love that.
But as a result, sometimes people think, well, Daniel sort
(05:08):
of just thinks he's just completely open on this concept
of welcome everybody. And the answer is yes, at the
outset, a host job, or at least my position in life, my, my like
posture is you start with a welcome, but there are
absolutely things you can do that that, you know, sort of
(05:31):
remove that welcome. And there's a whole procedure
for that as well, right? Like, but it doesn't.
But everybody starts with one, and I think of that as my
generally like as a theme. I think about my characters
think that way often. I was like, how how do we engage
with a stranger? You know, how does 1 You know,
even in like in a western, you know how you know you're you're
(05:52):
by yourself. It's dark, everything is
dangerous. Things will kill you.
You're you've just started a fire.
You have one can of beans that you are in a lawless place.
And then all of a sudden you hear a rustle and someone steps
out of a of. The brush.
And you look at each other and you're like, well, this person
(06:13):
might have just followed the light into toward me, right of
my fire, or they might be hungry, or they might be here to
kill me. And frankly, they'd get the
whole can of beans if they did kill me.
And I might only be worth a can of beans to this human being.
And and you're so there's a sudden assessment, this
question. No one's here to help you.
There's just the two of you and you're negotiating a welcome
(06:35):
around a fire and a question of who and what to share in this,
you know, environment. And you might, you might offer
half your beans and they might offer as a result, like what a
delight if they are they, you know, offered half of whatever
they have. And, and you share the fire and
then you exchange stories. And now all of a sudden there's
(06:56):
two of you and you're far more protected.
But there is a moment, there's amoment where they step out of
the brush where it's completely lawless.
And what we're negotiating here is each other's lives.
And I think that I think about that all the time.
And like in in other civilized contexts, I think about it is
that fundamental to almost all our negotiations is like
(07:19):
backstopped by in every negotiation is an act of
violence. And and we just constantly have
to take that off the table and welcome each other.
And so. Yeah, that is, yeah, that I
write about that. I feel like we were on task.
I feel like we were. That entire time I've been
(07:41):
looking at you and you've been looking up into the left, what
are you seeing? I'm well, I'm imagining what I'm
describing, right? So I'm like a lot of times when
I am like I think in terms of when I'm thinking in terms of a
metaphor, I am trying to craft it with all 5 senses.
(08:02):
And so I in that moment, what I was seeing was, was the
underbrush. Did you smell the the fire?
I was trying to, yeah, I was trying to, yeah, like, And then
which of these details matter inwhat is essentially like, And
also, you know, and if I pick the wrong ones, then I'm just
bloviating and boring you. No, but you're very selective.
You were. I mean, I was there with you.
(08:22):
I was like, where's this going? And I'm hungry.
Can of beans what a stereotypical thing to have.
But the welcome itself. That that that setup of of
either the character or the characters or the scene.
Where does that come? From where does that starting
point for you in terms of the welcome come from?
(08:42):
Well, I mean, that metaphor extends itself to we could have
had that exact same metaphor, except it's two kids in a
cafeteria and one of them's holding its tray of food and the
other one's sitting at an empty table, right?
And it's the same negotiation. And it's not life or death, but
it's social life. So this is now the like second
or third time we've talked aboutfood.
Food. First time when you're talking
(09:04):
about the setting of bringing people in.
Second time we've talking about the setting, you know, the
campfire and the and the the canof beans.
Third time cafeteria What's going on with food now?
Oh, I mean food. Food is how the center of almost
all my social interactions. Like, I, I mean, and this is how
tiresome is it for someone to belike, let me tell you about my
culture. We like food.
(09:26):
I really want to meet the personwho's like, we don't like food
and we don't like family. And nobody sits around the table
talking like, OK, cool. Yeah.
Let me tell you about my Mama. She likes to feed people.
Yeah. Which is true.
But yeah. So.
Yeah, I think. Are these things that are
natural, natural, well they justcome naturally to you?
Or is it from a place that was built in DNA wise, embedded in
(09:51):
family or embedded in culture? Where are these things coming
from? That, you know, that's a
challenge. I mean, which came first, right?
Early on, I realized I could cook pretty well.
And then you get encouraged in that.
And I went and became a chef fora while, a pastry chef and man,
the best feeling in the world. You want, you want to know if
you're in an I was in an open kitchen and in an open kitchen,
(10:11):
the chefs will they, they keep it cool.
But one of the things that's always happening is they're
always going like you send, you send out like a, let's say a row
of desserts and the, you know, the waiters taking it around,
you know, and it's, it's landingat the table and you might not
notice them, but they are absolutely watching.
And what they're watching for isthis thing where when someone
(10:34):
put something into their mouth that they like, they involuntary
involuntarily start to like nod their head.
It's just, there's like a yes happening.
And it feels so good when you'rea chef and you're watching
everybody just put it in their mouth and nod.
If they don't like it, there's like an actual, there's like a
freeze moment because there's like a fight or flight thing
kicks in and they're like, should I like swallow this like
(10:58):
a meet? There's an immediate reaction.
And so you get your review then.So I think in general, you know,
as a chef, you become, I wouldn't say a Dick, but you
definitely become like very honed in on that feedback loop
of, oh, they liked it, they liked it.
It's my job to make something that pleases.
(11:19):
The word pleasant is really important.
You know, like I think there aresome chefs who are out there as
artists who want to like challenge your palate or want to
push. That's not most pastry chefs I
know are the exact opposite. Like pastries in particular.
They're like, no, I want you to put in your mouth and be like,
this is the best dessert I've ever had.
Like I want you happy. I want you joyful.
Like Wonka makes sense. Like I want you to enjoy the
(11:44):
thing that I've made and are. You doing the same thing with
your writing. Yeah, I would.
I yes, although I mean writing encapsulates more than just
putting something in your mouth and so, but across the course of
the entire project, Yeah, absolutely.
I want you to be, Yeah, I want you to be pleased, I and I, and
(12:06):
now, but I also want to, in the course of a book, start to
negotiate with that, with your pleasure to say like, now I know
you'll be pleased if I just giveyou the funniest ha ha.
And like just saccharine a storyever.
I know that would actually please you.
And there's a lot of channels for that.
And you can get, would it also please you if we took a little
(12:30):
bit of a journey to your childhood and you were in such a
state of, I don't know, simpatico with this story.
The specificity of the story haduniversalized itself in your
heart. And you were able to take it in
as almost a reminder of something of your own.
(12:51):
And we took you through the hardparts and we took you through
the the painful parts. But we got to a better place and
we got to a, a satisfaction thatis greater than sugar.
Would that also please you? Would you be pleased if we
discovered something about you that you hadn't yet seen?
Would would that be a, an insight or a, a piece that that
(13:18):
is on offer that goes through some bitterness and goes
through, you know, if we could do that, would you, would you
have a greater appreciation? Right.
And then now we have, we're starting to get some depth of
flavor and we're starting to getsome depth of thought.
And, and so, and that's a negotiation because if you start
in a book, I think a lot of people do this, you start
(13:41):
without having won them over andyou're like, let me just told
you about like the, you know, some dark stuff.
And so then I, it's very possible that a reader just
doesn't stick with you, right. I do think we're negotiating the
reader's pleasure, which is another way of saying, you know,
I think this is the this is another thought in the question
(14:01):
of like entertainment versus art.
Entertainment is nothing but pleasure and art is this depth
of understanding. And I, and I think fundamentally
that that neither of these two camps are addressing what's
happening, which is we're negotiating in the same way of
like, does this, does this please, like in a top ass
restaurant or in a chef's menu? Like we're watching, we're
(14:23):
trying, you know, there's, we'repushing and pulling.
And because like, why otherwise,why wouldn't every chef's menu
be chocolate and cocaine? Now here you go.
Your system will take these two things and you'll be whooping
and hollering. And which one comes first, the
cocaine or the? Chocolate, it's just the
chocolate cocaine on chocolate. No, I just mean like those
(14:44):
things like I don't I don't do cocaine, just to be clear in
case of my listeners. I mean, like that would be these
like just utter chemicals that pump into your body that I'm
told create like, you know, likestimulus and it's like those are
that's sugar, by the way, does that.
There's like dopamine rushes andit's like, why isn't that what
(15:06):
like the poppiest of entertainment is on, you know,
as a analog to food. They don't do we don't do that
right. We don't we take them through a
like AI mean a good chef's menu is taking you through one is the
word cycles right. You're there are such things as
palate cleansers and and but sudden like bursts of flavour,
(15:28):
but also now we pull back. And I just like saying Amus.
Bouche, I just Amus. Yeah, there you go.
First we dig in. Amus.
Bouche Yeah. So I mean, I, I, maybe I, I sort
of too grandly answered that question, but I think, I think
that is what we're saying when we're describing, when I'm, when
I'm describing like food as a metaphor for art.
(15:51):
Yeah. Are there other metaphors that
you use or is that is is that a a reliable one for you to
connect with? The I think the two, yeah, the
two most common metaphors I use in life are cooking and
fighting. Those metaphors just come up a
lot, I think. I think, you know, I'll tell you
(16:13):
why. Because of the word true.
There's there's two things aboutthose metaphors that are really,
they're really important to me because they're constantly, they
ground you in reality. Here's I'll be specific.
In both of them, I have a phrasethat is pops into my head all
the time and they speak to reality versus delusion.
(16:35):
And the first in fighting is, ofcourse, the quote from the great
Mike Tyson, which is everybody'sgot a plan until they get
punched in the face. What a great and short and pithy
thought that's effectively everybody believes they can
manifest their own desires untilthe reality of the world strikes
them in the face. That is just a longer and less
(16:58):
articulate version of Tyson's. Everybody's got a plan till they
get punched in the face. And on the food side, there's a,
the quote is less famous becauseit's from my, a chef that I used
to work for. And it was, it only happened in
the context of when we would make dishes.
So we would try to set a menu and those executive chef would
sit and she would eat the food that we were sort of like
(17:21):
pitching to enter the new season's menu.
And I was a dessert person. So, you know, I would put
something up and she would, you know, put it in her mouth.
And she was a very, very, she had a very discerning taste.
And I love like a floral things like I love Annis and lavender
and orange blossom. I love rose water.
I come from it to it honestly. So I had made like a flight of
(17:44):
ice creams that were like florals and they were served on
edible flowers. I was like, this is going to be
huge. So I had like a, what was it?
It was a Annis ice cream with dark chocolate chunks and
orange. It was, I thought it was the
best flavor I've ever had. And she put it in her mouth and
she just, her face screws up andshe just goes.
(18:07):
And she was British. And the worst criticism she
could ever say was it's not verynice, is it?
And that meant like, go, you arefired, you're disgusting person.
But she said it's not very nice.Is it?
And there wasn't a question markat the end of that sent.
No, no, definitely wasn't. And I remember my, the boss who
I worked for every day, not the executive chef who was like over
(18:29):
everything. My boss kind of just goes like
she like breathes in like Oh no.And anyway, I was kind of like
bummed out at the end of that. My my flight of ice creams did
not make it and I was bummed out.
And she just goes, look, all youever have is your palate.
Like don't blame her. Like don't blame her because
it's like she, it's not that shedoesn't get it, it's that all
you ever have as a chef is your palate.
(18:51):
And she goes, look, if I put something in my mouth and it's
salty and you start trying to argue with me, like, well, I
didn't put that much salt in there.
It doesn't matter. You can't come into my mouth and
argue with my tongue. My tongue told me it was salty.
It's forever salty. That's all that can ever be.
But you must trust your palate because the second you look to
her and she says this flavor isn't good, but your tongue
(19:14):
loves it and but, and you say, well, it must not be very good,
you are adrift because you're not even trusting your own
tongue anymore. Like as a chef, you only have
your palate. She disagrees with you.
She's your boss. Take it off the menu, but keep
it. It's good.
It's good to you. And you'll someday you'll find
if you were the chef, you could serve it to 100 people and I
(19:36):
don't know, God willing, like 90of them would love it.
Maybe 60, maybe 20, who knows? But you only ever have your
palate. And that's again, it's this
calibration of don't, don't losesight of these things.
Don't let other people's voices like start to take away from the
intrinsic stuff. That doesn't mean don't listen
to advice there, but there are intrinsic stuff, in this case
(19:59):
your tongue. And if you start distrusting
that you are as an artist, as a chef.
You are adrift like you're. I don't even know what you'll be
cooking. So the palette of an adult is
very different than the palette of a child.
How do you approach both those palettes in terms of writing?
That's a great question. Well, I mean, if, if a work is
(20:25):
specifically going to be targeted to a child, there are
like, I think they're important heuristics and observances you
have to have, right? Like several, I mean
observances, there are some thatare bedrock, right?
Like, you know, like appropriateness, right, That I
just generally sort of fit into what I would call just an
(20:47):
objective. Like these are the rules for
interacting with someone who's young, whom you can harm in ways
that you just shouldn't. And so that's a whole separate
category, but over here in the subjective category would be
little would be sort of I, I would call sort of child
development concepts that are helpful for a, a artist targeted
(21:14):
toward children to study and think about.
So I used to have a boss who wasa legend in children's books.
And she used to say a phrase that's always stuck with me.
She said children are no less intelligent than adults.
They're far less informed. And what she was trying to
express was this idea that children do not have emotional
(21:35):
lives that are any less complicated than ours.
Like they have the like it wherever they are, they have the
same feelings that we do. The feelings of like nervousness
walking into a daycare or, you know, fear of, you know, being
either unaccepted or left behind.
All of these like things that weas adults have sort of
(21:57):
sublimated into such complex anddeep thoughts that only, you
know, the literary masters can teach us about.
These children have they just don't have the words to identify
them the way we do, right? They do not.
They, they have a far less granular emotion recognition
machine and part of your task asa artist toward these kids is to
(22:20):
help them develop that, right? That's, that's what on some
level coming of age, that's whatcoming of age is, is starting to
be able to articulate the complexities of the adult world
to yourself and to be able to mature in these ways.
So I, I think in general, like the palette of a child, I take
on the posture of far less the posture of like, let me
(22:44):
challenge you, let me be adversarial, let me be I, I, I'm
that's just far less that it's far more nurturing.
It's far more the task of, you know, I think gentle mentorship
or education like these are, these are the tools that, you
know, we're like, we're trying to, we want art to offer to
(23:06):
children. It isn't it why we say art is
good for it's like literally thereason we say kids should read,
kids should see art. It's like, why?
It's like, well, for this emotional development, like
social development, these are the ideas, right?
But some might approach that if we continue with the food
analogy and just say, well, kidsonly like macaroni and cheese
and pizza and hot dogs and hamburgers.
(23:27):
And I think you're doing more than just offering that up.
Well, we know for a fact or we know that if somebody is going
to only eat the things you just mentioned, they're going to have
an unhealthy and poorly rounded and perhaps even short life,
right? So we know that that isn't the
entirety of what they should experience in life.
So yes, to follow that metaphor,the challenge is to maybe begin
(23:51):
there, but also start to again in the negotiation of 1's
pleasure, right? OK, I can do Mac and cheese.
I can definitely do a Mac and cheese that you'll like.
That also has some of the thingsthat I want you to taste.
I'll just let's start with Gruyere.
Let's start with funkier cheesesthan you're used to.
Fontina is awesome. And Mac and cheese.
I mean, I'm going to start building your palette into some
(24:13):
of the Frenchest cheeses you've ever had.
And then and the same with any of you know, at least, I mean,
if you know the meta does not, you know, sort of wear the
metaphor out. But, but I do think yes, then
your task to a kid who has a very limited food palette would
be to take them into adulthood. By the time you take them into
(24:35):
adulthood, build them up, build,you know, build and help them be
broad. So let's talk about everything
Sad is untrue. There's oral tradition in that.
There's a lot of personal experience that you've put into
that that's turned into a universal story.
People have, I mean, it's, it's,it's, it's had tremendous impact
(24:58):
earning awards and and reaching readers worldwide.
What has the response of of thatbook taught you in terms about
the power of storytelling? Well, so, you know, it's funny.
I didn't expect that. And as a result, I might have
been less forthcoming with the more embarrassing stories about
myself. Up until that book, they hadn't,
(25:20):
you know, I hadn't, I hadn't hadthat kind of attention.
And so I think maybe I was lulled into a false sense of
privacy. I was like.
You're like, no. One's reading this, nobody's
going to read this. So that's a lesson I definitely
learned. No, but, but also I, I think, I
think, yeah, broadly speaking, Imean it, it has, it's been, it's
(25:41):
been an incredible ride. I, I think it has definitely, as
a writer, it has absolutely taught me that readers, and
we've been talking about this like readers will reward a
truthful and maybe a vulnerable and very specific experience by
(26:04):
coming to it and opening themselves up.
Like I, another way to say it isI, I about 3 * a week, I get an,
I get emails from people who they'll write nice things, you
know, like often they'll write nice things and they, you know,
they say thank you and all the, all the pleasantries and then
(26:24):
they write like paragraphs and paragraphs of their own lives.
And some of these, sometimes it's quite heavy something, but
it's, I mean, it is their like almost reply to my book and it's
their life story. And it's, it's, it's all over
the place. You know, I've, I've gotten
emails from, I mean, you, you name it, the sort of the range
(26:47):
of people's experiences and lives.
And, and so, so on Fridays I sitdown and try to respond to them.
So Fridays are kind of a heavy day for me because first I take
in all these stories, right? And it's like some of them, some
of them involve a lot of grief and a lot of, you know, pain
and, and things like that. And then and then they try to
respond by saying, like, isn't this incredible?
(27:08):
Like, isn't this an incredible and grateful thing that we are
we can share, right? Is that this idea that you read,
you read the story of just some obnoxious little Persian boy who
comes to Oklahoma and is remainsobnoxious and doesn't isn't
doesn't fit in probably because of his fault and isn't what the
program and then like tells a bunch of stories and those
(27:31):
stories are extremely specific and some of them are funny and
some of them are tragic and but they you could absolutely look
at that and be like, that has nothing to do with me.
I think the generosity of, you know, a reader, you know, it's
kind of often not as celebrated,right.
But I, I get the opportunity to celebrate it every week where I
(27:54):
respond to these people and go thank you for looking at my
work. Thank you for coming at it with
an open enough heart to see yourself in it, even though we
could not be more different. So that lesson has been has
been, you know, it's a, it's a common adage in writing that the
specific becomes universal. And the more specific you go,
the more people will sympathize with it.
(28:18):
I that's a really odd paradox, though, isn't it?
Like the, the more the more I express the most niche parts of
my experience and thoughts, the more people might look at it and
go, I have a thing like that. I have a.
And so that, yeah, that's been the major lesson of this book.
So that's specificity, that fingerprint, that nuance that.
(28:42):
And you say niche, but it's not necessarily niche.
Well, so it turns out, right? Yeah.
We all have pain. We all have.
We all have these feelings. None of them are unique to me,
right? Yeah, you're right.
But the more you 0 in on that, the more you find people who
then respond to that in a in a in a universal way, but from
their own perspective. Yeah, they personalize it.
(29:03):
We're so, we're so good at doingthat.
I, I'm, I love that phenomenon that human beings can see faces
and everything, you know, like there's like photographers out
there who will just take pictures of like the front of
cars and like the two bed lightson a grill always just look like
a happy face to us and like, we're like.
Anthropomorphizing, you know. There's like we like slice an
onion like in half and the middle just looks like a little
(29:25):
happy baby. Like it's just to us.
We see ourselves. We see ourselves.
That's humanity, right? The innate nature of wanting to
see. And I love that.
I, I think actually that can be harnessed.
And part part of art's purpose is to, you know, as as opposed
to the opposite of just like dehumanizing other human, you
(29:45):
know, like this is this is the work that a novel does as you
go. This is the most specific
version of me. And you are welcome to see
yourself if you like. And that's kind of that's an
amazing. Awesome.
What does it mean to be unapologetically creative?
It is to understand that to create is the third primal
(30:09):
action of the human life outsideof survival and reproduction is
the function of worship, which is the function of creating,
right? We create out of an abundance of
fascination or love for something.
(30:31):
And this we do in the same like instinctive way 'cause we were
created to do it as we do our survival instinct and our
reproductive instinct, everything.
And at my and my belief is that we, every human does it.
So you know, I think the unapologetic part is because
(30:55):
it's beyond the reproach of being correct or incorrect.
It simply is we create. Now what do we create?
Do we create nothing but chaos in a family we are actively, you
know, working to destroy or do we create peace and beauty and,
(31:17):
you know, joy? These are, you know, but we
create. We create in the same way that
we, we metabolize, right? Like we just, we just do, we go
around creating. Now the question is, should you
apologize for what you created? Daniel's reflections reveal how
(31:38):
stories can turn the smallest, most powerful details into
something that resonates far beyond the self.
From inviting strangers to dinner, to writing about
children's memories to navigating the line between
entertainment and art, his perspective highlights the ways
that creativity can open doors and spark recognition across
(31:59):
differences. And Speaking of welcome, if you
do get that invitation, don't forget to take off your shoes.
Thanks for listening to Unapologetically Created.
Be sure to follow the show. And stay tuned.
For more insightful conversations in the episodes
ahead to learn more about the Vermont College of Fine Arts,
(32:20):
visit vcfa.edu.
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