Filmmaker Charles Burnett reflects on a career shaped by community, history, and a deep sense of responsibility to tell stories often left unseen. Growing up in Watts and coming of age during a pivotal moment in American history, Burnett shares how lived experience, observation, and empathy became central to his approach to filmmaking.
In this conversation, Burnett discusses why he has always viewed film as more than entertainment, emphasizing storytelling as a way to preserve memory, reflect social realities, and give voice to everyday life. He speaks about his time at UCLA, the challenges Black filmmakers faced in gaining access and recognition, and how works like Killer of Sheep emerged from a commitment to authenticity rather than spectacle.
Burnett also reflects on legacy and what it means to remain creatively engaged over time, offering insight into the responsibility artists carry to their communities and to future generations through the stories they choose to tell.
02:10 – Early Life in Watts and Learning to Observe
04:30 – Community as a Source of Story
06:45 – UCLA and a Transformative Moment in History
09:10 – Access, Barriers, and Being Seen as a Filmmaker
11:45 – Film as Reflection, Not Explanation
14:00 – Rejecting Spectacle and Hollywood Expectations
16:10 – The Making of Killer of Sheep
19:20 – Everyday Life as Cinematic Material
21:40 – International Recognition and U.S. Resistance
24:00 – Preservation, Memory, and Cultural Responsibility
26:10 – Teaching, Mentorship, and Passing Knowledge Forward
28:15 – Legacy, Responsibility, and Closing Reflections
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(00:02):
I wanted to tell stories about my neighborhood, about the
people I grew up with and parents, the single parents of
the fat family members and things that that were trying to
make a difference. Welcome to Unapologetically
Creative, a podcast from the Vermont College of Fine Arts,
(00:25):
where we celebrate bold artistry, transformative
creativity, and the audacious voices shaping the future of the
arts. I'm your host, Andrew Ram Sammy,
and in this series, we dive intohonest, inspiring conversations
with artists who are pushing boundaries and redefining what
it means to create work that resonates and endures.
(00:51):
Today's conversation is a rare one.
We're honored to speak with Charles Burnett, one of the most
influential film makers in American cinema.
Raised in Watts after being bornin Vicksburg, Ms., Charles came
of an age during a period of profound cultural and social
change that shaped his approach to storytelling.
(01:12):
From Killer of sheep to a body of work that has earned him an
Academy Honorary Award and recognition as a MacArthur
Fellow, Charles has dedicated his career to portraying
everyday life with honesty and care.
His experiences growing up, studying at UCLA and working as
a self funded filmmaker informedhis belief that film must do
(01:34):
more than just entertain. Today, we're going to explore
storytelling as a responsibility, the importance
of community voice, and how meaningful stories can reflect
and respond to a world that continues to change.
Charles, welcome to an apologetically creative thank
you. Glad to be here.
When you hear all of that, a body of work that started in
(01:58):
1977, and Charles, I'm going to tell you that I was born in
1977. Good for you.
So I am 48 years old. You have been doing this work
now for almost close to 5 decades, to go from where you've
come from to where you're at now.
(02:19):
Especially what's going on in the moment right now in America.
What do you have to say? Oh, scary.
It's really scary. I, I, I, you know, everyone I
know it is and feel the same way.
And you know, people of color and they don't know if they're
going to be here, whether buy a house or plan or buy a house
someplace on another country. So it's, it's, it's been quite
(02:43):
interesting because what I, I, Iwent to school, the GCLA and
during the civil rights movementand things like that.
So there's this promise, this idea that, you know, we want to
be a part of America. America would be different.
You know, all this, all the progressive things that were
happening in the country, you know, you know, the right to
(03:04):
vote, all that sort of thing washappening during the period I
was growing up. And when I, I never imagined the
people I've talked to were the same age contemporaries.
We never thought that we would go, we would be going backwards
after we made all this progress and, and got ourselves in the
doorway and stuff, You know, andwe don't know if this country
(03:29):
going to exist like it did in the past, you know, in, in terms
of is we're going to be a, a democratic country, you know,
where people have our rights andbe encouraged to stay here and
live and raise a family. It's, it's, it's sort of
(03:49):
shocking the way things have changed.
I mean really revolutionized in a in a in a negative way.
Typically people look to folks like you for a more positive,
uplifting, inspiring story, but you're you're being very
practical in your response. How much of that weight do you
feel having done this work for so long and now to see to to
(04:13):
what you've just described progress regressing, do you feel
like you have a moral obligationto take on that responsibility
to be positive or to do what you've just exactly did to be
honest and truthful about the moment that we're in?
Well, I. Think, you know, having grown up
doing the civil rights movement,it was this notion that you,
you, you were responsible for making a change.
(04:38):
In fact, when I was going to UCLA in the 60s and the idea
when we were in film school, we were making films with the
notion that it was in effect social change.
We wouldn't do things that that,you know, unlike Hollywood, just
for entertainment. We were trying to do something
that had relevance, you know, and not just our purpose wasn't
(05:03):
just like I said, to entertain, but we were going back in the
past and looking at the heroes and people like Frederick
Douglass had to be Wells and andand and Martin Luther King and
Malcolm X, people who are who are trying to make a difference
and future for us in this country.
And now you see it's all erodingor, but I think we have people
(05:26):
of color have to, to come together and decide that we have
to do something as a group, not individuals so much.
I want individuals as much as wecan, but but I think that the
the the force comes and the pressure comes from us acting as
in in a group to make a difference.
Being a person of color and thisspace of art and in particular
(05:50):
film is, I'm sure, has certainlybeen a challenging one for you.
Oh, it's been amazing that challenge in a way.
And I know a lot of friends of mine who you see when I got in,
when I got into film school in the 60s, we couldn't make films
and, and get them shown theatrically because it was, I
(06:10):
mean, when I, when I, like I said, when I got into film, I,
when I first started, I wanted to be a documentary film maker.
I wanted to be a cameraman person.
So I went to ECLA and it takes cinematography.
And even though I was taking this class, you know, it was, it
was understood that, you know, to be a first cameraman, you had
to wait 15 years or so to be a, a first camera person.
(06:31):
And that's if you were a white person, period.
But if you were black people, you were not given the
opportunity. And so I thought I was going to
be making films as a hobby and, and paying for them on the
weekends, on another job and andso forth.
But luckily things changed a bitand we were able to and make
(06:54):
films and, and screen them and they look very positive.
And then the Europeans looked atthe films and, and wrote very
positive things about us and, and film it.
It's like when we began to make an inroad into filmmaking and to
showing films. We had, I mean, we mean the
(07:16):
scoop of film makers, people of color who were making films at
the time. We knew that we had to do
something that would speak to people of color because if they
didn't have a voice in this industry at all, I wanted to.
I'd read a lot of black history,and there were a lot of people
(07:36):
in that really admired particularly.
I'd buy my. I'd buy the people I grew up
with, my neighbors. Yeah.
And, and, and, and I saw that they weren't represented in
film, you know, And so that's what I wanted to do when I got
into, when I got into filmmaking, I wanted to tell
stories about my neighborhood, about the people I grew up with
and parents, the single parents of the fat family members and
(08:00):
things that, that were trying tomake a difference.
And particularly to provide a sort of context for, for us as
as kids to, and, and how to, to,to, to, to grow up and be
responsible people. And because I remember, you
know, older people used to pass you by and say, boy, stay in
(08:23):
school, you know, and get a diploma.
And I realized that, you know, that was so, so important.
And they were doing the best. They're going to tell us to, to
how be productive and what you had to do to survive in this
country. And so I wanted to, to, to
express this notion that the, the images you see on television
(08:44):
are the one of the that always in the performing and just for
entertainment and stuff like that.
Although they're real people outthere, people who were really
trying to make a difference and raise a family and, and all
kinds of conditions. And and so that's what I wanted
to do is, is sort of like show who people of color where they
(09:06):
are. In The Killer of Sheep, you
crafted a amazing cinematic poemabout everyday life and Watts,
how did you find power in portraying the ordinary rather
than dramatizing it and talking about what you just talked
about, creating the buffoonery of what typically had been shown
around? Well, I mean, the people I saw
(09:28):
were people from the South. There was there was a like a
third wave of people from from the South occupying LA.
When I was coming up, it was hard to find anyone who was born
in LA after. I mean, there were a number of
people, probably black people born in LA, but it was it was a
rarity. And most of them were from there
were down many people and in my community were from the South,
(09:52):
you know, so we brought that culture with us.
They had this sort of way of, ofsitting in the porch and talking
about this Mississippi like it was this places, this this
mythological place. And so I always had this, even
though I went back in the summertime because I have an
uncle, because that's a preacherin, in Vicksburg, Ms. And so we
(10:14):
had to go back and, you know, and he was a preacher.
So we had to go to his church every day, you know, And so that
was so it kept us sort of reformed and kept us aware of
where we came from and so forth.And I remember that I don't want
(10:37):
to jump around, but let me tell you, one incident happened to me
when I went back to Vicksburg because we were going to go to
church and, and being like, because church and everything.
And we, we took a, a train from LA to New Orleans.
And then we were going to take from New Orleans to take another
(10:57):
train from New Orleans to, to Jackson, Ms. to Jackson, a bus
down to Vicksburg. And so my, my brother and I, we
got to, to New Orleans, we had amoment of change, change.
So we, we saw this, we were in, in, in the depot in, in New
Orleans. And there was this playroom, you
(11:18):
know, with his games and things.But, but so we went in there, my
brother and I, and we were like around 12/11/12 and it was all
white. And if we didn't pay any
attention, we just have a plan with the hands.
The next thing we know, we're the only ones in there, you
know, and this, this policeman and everyone came in and said
(11:38):
you don't belong in here, you know, and you saw all these five
people standing outside looking in, in the windows at us, you
know, like we're in some zoo or something, you know.
And so we had to leave. My grandmother had to come and
get us, you know, and then we took a jump crow train from New
Orleans to, to to Jackson to Jackson town, that bus down to
but you know, it took me almost 50 years to get over that
(12:01):
experience that, that being kicked out of this and cause LA,
there was this illusion she could go anywhere, right?
Or there wasn't. LA was just as just as
segregated many ways. You know, you couldn't get, you
know, you like you were on Central Ave. then you couldn't
go across Central Ave. and therewas like Avalon to Avalon.
And, you know, we were sort of far away W you know, and because
(12:25):
it was like it was a lot of sundowner towns here and so
forth. So you, you, you like in
Inglewood is virtually, you know, people of color now.
But when I was going there, you can go you, you worked there,
but you had to leave. And so you know.
And for those that don't know what a sundown town is, that is
literally by the time the sun goes down, you gotta be gone.
(12:47):
You gotta be a you as a a black person could not be there.
Yeah, there are a lot of things like that.
Inglewood, Glendale, always places like that.
You know, you can, there's many places.
And so you, it was very impressive here, you know, and
people think of course. Thinking as liberal and as
progressive as you think California or LA was.
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't.
(13:09):
Wow, so you've been a self funded filmmaker.
You You've written, you've shot,you've edited your own film.
How is mastering each one of those elements in production
influenced your own creative autonomy?
Well, one of the good things about going to UCLA at the time
was the fact that you had to, todo all those sort of things.
Unlike SC, you were, you know, you, you, you had to work in
(13:32):
everyone's film, right? You know, that's the only way
you can make a film. That was, you know, and, and,
and financing. It wasn't a question of money
because it, it wasn't one hand, but, but it was so inexpensive
to go to school here. Yeah, right.
I think if when I went to UCLA, I mean 1/4 a four quarter each
quarter, it was only $15, fifteen, $25, you know.
(13:54):
So we stayed there, you know, because it was all this
equipment there and the sound stages, editing equipment and so
forth. And it was making films.
So you had this? Really had this incredible
access. Yeah.
And, and it was, it was, it was really fun being there.
Yeah. You know, and, and they gave you
this all the freedom you want, you know, and so we worked on
everyone's film. And then when LSL Taylor, the
(14:16):
first black teacher that taught at UCI in the film department,
he had this program about ethniccommunications.
What encouraged you to do films about your, you know, your
experience, your background and people of color, you know,
right. And, and so then it became when
I first went, there was only a few black people there in the
film department or a handful. And then then suddenly over a
(14:41):
period, a short period of time, more, more people, black people
started coming into filmmaking and into the program.
And when it got to that part, everyone was making films or
trying to make films. So we had to help each other.
But but one of the good things about ECLA, they, they tell you,
you have to work on every, you know, price when we can do it.
And so it was a great experience.
(15:02):
And luckily that when we got there, when we got enough
people, a critical mass of people of color, we had this
community that were, we were always telling about what is a
black film, you know? And unfortunately we weren't,
they didn't show a lot of like Oscar Michelle films here until
(15:23):
later in, in my state, UCLA. And then we saw these films that
were made by the, in the, in thelate 20s and 30s and 40s by this
black film maker who was the first independence film maker,
white or black, you know, that made films that deal with the
black subject matter. And that was the first, first
time we saw films that what outside of third world films.
(15:47):
That's, that's it. This is what you should be
doing. These are things that you, this
is content you should have in your film.
You should be included in your film.
And so that was that was one of the best experiences we have,
understanding that they were black film makers and and actors
and artists that were there in the 20s and 30s that we didn't
(16:09):
know about. So that sounds like it informed
your thinking about the ability to then to to control your your
narrative, the narrative you wanted to create.
I think that and a number of other factors who came into
play. We had apparel Bowser who was in
who was a person who got together black films and and put
(16:31):
them on tour throughout the country, you know, pure bows and
Oliver Franklin. And and so we and we were
invited to go to these differentcities and black communities and
show our films and and have discussions and dialogue with
the communities. That was one of the best things
that happened because we got an idea what they wanted and what
(16:53):
we should be doing. And that occurs.
Other Black students come in andtry to make films because anyone
wanted to do something that was relevant, right?
You know, And it's always his give us an opportunity to have
direct contact with people of color and the people of the
community. We had to share the same
experience of logics and we didn't have a voice.
(17:15):
You had mentioned earlier about taking your films to Europe.
Were you and your films more socially accepted?
Outside the US, absolutely I seea positive because I'm glad you
brought that, you know, because we, we, we sort of had the same
sort of situation that ours black ours and and and and and
(17:36):
the states in the 20s and 30s and the Renaissance and so
forth. Well, you know, the jazz plays
with the Europe and things and found their voice and everything
and people. So, you know, said these are
real artists and they're writtenabout when we were when we did
the same thing in the 60s and 70s.
(17:58):
You know, we're invited to Germany, France and so forth.
And I got to, I was in Germany. I, I, I, I won two prizes in
Germany. There's a short Film Festival
right there and, and Oprah housing Film Festival.
And then at the Berlin Film Festival, killer, she won a, a
big, a major prize there. And all the, all the films that
(18:18):
we shown were in all the newspapers and all the magazines
and so forth. I'm like when I came back here.
Silence. So, so many of your films
weren't released until decades later, recognized decades later,
waiting for that type of recognition.
How did it shape your relationship with the work and
how did it shape your relationship with the audience?
(18:40):
And how did it shape your relationship with the industry?
Well, two things 1A Magic KillerSheep was done, was made like in
was thought of written in early and late 69 in the 6th and 6th,
early 60s. And I didn't.
The thing is, when was a studentfilm, I didn't have to worry
(19:01):
about getting rights to the music because it wasn't going to
be played theatrically. As long as it wasn't played
theatrically, I could do whatever I want with the rights.
And so I just put records and recordings on without getting
paid to them. I should have thought in the
future that I would have to probably deal with that.
I was going to get the actual distribution, but at that time
(19:22):
it wasn't. You didn't even think about.
It because it wasn't my name andso so it so when it was released
and made earlier, I had to wait till luckily Milestone came
along and wanted to distribute this film.
And so they unfortunately, unfortunately had, they had to
go and buy the, the music rightsand it took them a while to do
(19:44):
that because once the film is and the music is married to the
film, the, the publishers have you, you know, and so, but, but
Milestone really put an effort into to getting the rights and
then making it happen where theythey were able to release it in
the years, years later. Years later, yeah, when you look
(20:05):
like a if you look at a filmmaker now, like Ryan Coogler
and Sinners and his, you know, first film Fruitville Station
and obviously Black Panther and everything that's happened.
What what goes through your mindnow looking at at at black
filmmaking today? Well, people like you that and
who are really making films and showing that this they hadn't
(20:27):
made a film that's gotten almosta billion dollars, you know, So
like that's just totally unusual.
You know, it's like that, you know, if a film made and, and
and then the 50s on back, you know, $200,000, you know, at the
box office that was. That was a good day.
Yeah, of your day. Right.
You know, now, I mean, if you make a film, it doesn't do you
(20:48):
know greatly, you know that thatand financially well, it's not
considered but but he's proven in this a lot of people in that
that there is audience for blackfilms and they can make money.
And so this illusion that they don't make money is ridiculous.
You can't go. You can't come up with that
argument for and so. And a lot of.
(21:09):
People would want to discount even Tyler Perry and Tyler
Perry's influence and. Guys, billionaire now, right,
you know, and, and he's found anaudience, you know.
So, Charles, when you make a film and when you've made your
films, who have you made your films for?
Have you made them for yourself?Have you made them for a
community? Have you who?
Who's who's the film for? I would want to make films that
(21:31):
were really inspired kids, the young people and with family
members, whether it is a show that this film will inspire you
to, you know, like, like this. So many great people in our
community, like like Frederick Douglass, Evie Dubois, you know,
you can go on Mar Delaney and L and on.
And we need to to bring those people and celebrate them
(21:53):
continuously because they were in in surviving and doing things
when, you know, when they were didn't have the support, the
mass support and Martin Luther King's and and kids.
I I remember when I was going toschool in South Los Angeles, we
didn't have we, we had like one or two George Washington Carver
with anyone we we knew and aboveof you know, and that was it.
(22:17):
And so if I could and and and soI had no heroes in that sense.
And the only time it was that way after that I was able to go
go to the libraries and find thewho's people are and so forth
and Bright Spider. But but if I didn't know way
we'd advance, have been inspiredby these people, who they are
and what they went through and everything, I'd have been a
(22:38):
different person. Well, I think you turned out
just fine. Well, you know, I've been a
little faster and, you know, I didn't know better.
These are the kind of people I want to write films about, you
know, sort of discovering it as I go, you know?
If you have one lesson to offer your younger self, if you had a
ability to go back to your time at UCLA or anytime early on your
(22:58):
career, what would you tell thatyoung Charles?
To be exploring more and to really understand black people a
lot more, you know, blue color and what they have gone through.
I mean, you know, one of the things that being from the
South, you know, the whole idea of lynching was a constant
(23:19):
conversation, like with my family, you know, and my mother
said she'd never go back down South, you know, the cousins and
things like that. No, no, no.
And, you know, I didn't know what, you know, you see lynching
pictures of photographs and things like that of people and
all these people I looked at andit looked like people I knew,
you know, and young people, you know.
And then that as I grew out, I discovered what Ray Lynch was
(23:42):
about, right? You know, the horror of it, you
know, and beyond just stranglingsomeone and strangling and and
so forth. But for someone that hates
someone like the, and then the mutilator target practice and
stuff. And I, I, I, to this day, I
don't understand that, you know,and, and I, and one of the
(24:02):
things that, you know, Ida B Wells is just kind of like a
special person in my mind, because that's what she stood
for and what she did, you know, and the fact that ironically,
her great granddaughter, a lot of her family moved in Chicago
and things like that, But her, her great granddaughter lived
behind me and, and I live on in like in, in the Windsor Hills
(24:26):
area and his apartments. I was good.
And Bill Greece was a film maker, documentary film maker,
well known documentary film maker.
He was also an actor in Oscar Michelle's films, stuff like
that. And so he wanted me to help him
and because we were in Paris together and as a, you know,
that whole thing about discovering who you are and
(24:47):
having been validated in in Europe.
And so he called me and says, look, I'm I'm going to do this
film. I need you to help me on this
thing. I said sure.
You want me to do sound. So he so he I said, sure.
So he gave me the address of where I'm going to meet this
crew up and meet at this particular location where Andy
(25:08):
Will's granddaughter lived. And so I looked at the address
and so I went there and ahead oftime to sort of like lay off the
location, right. Just scout it out.
Yeah. And this I went.
There and I was surprised that it was right around the corner
from my from my partner around my house.
And it just shows you how just one step away or 1° away.
Yeah, so and and you know so shocked anyway, so I got the
(25:31):
chance to. But she was an ambulatory,
bedridden and so forth and aged but able to.
You're closer to history. Than you know you are Oh yeah,
it it it's. I think one of the good things
about this, about being a filmmaker is that it allows you
to to, you know, to, to combine the fine heroes that you want to
(25:52):
make films up and realize that they were people who had made
million sacrifices for you. And you should know who they
are, you know at. 80 what does it mean to you to be
unapologetically creative your film has to.
Be something that justifies spending money on when they
(26:12):
could be more valuable to a starving person, right?
You know, a person who needs surgery or something like that.
You know, there's this this whole thing where they have, you
know, kids have crept lips and and you know, and it asks you
for a donation to give them a free medical care, whatever it
is, right. And so you have these choices,
you know, where kind of put the money is going to do the most
(26:34):
good. And I'm not too sure.
That's the only thing that I'm not too sure of is this.
If it does well to to to put in film only when someone's comes
and say, you know, you're from changing my life, whatever it is
made me do this and that fine. So that's why I still still in
the business, you know, so to speak.
Well, Charles. I think you.
Have. Left us a legacy of your
(26:56):
filmmaking and I hope that when people hear this that they'll be
inspired by what you've created,not only for black cinema,
independent cinema, but just cinema itself.
Well, thank you. What do you hope that?
Your work will continue to do when you're long gone from from
(27:18):
this earth. I I.
Well, I hope it has encouraged people to, to look at film more
than just entertainment. You know, that it's, it's, it's
a way to people to see themselves and to transformation
and something like, you know, some sort of guidance or some
(27:40):
sort of say this is, you know, you should be thinking about
this and not, not that I I'm oneof the things that, but I did
kill a sheep. I realized that, you know, I was
in the Watts. Amanda Watts on the right,
Right. Yeah.
And. One of the things that you are
aware of is that you know this who need a little coaching or
(28:04):
whatever it is. And so he hoped his film can
provide that. And, and that you're, you're
and, and, and knowing that also that you can't be pretentious
enough to say, well, I know whatthe answer is.
And I remember when I was doing Killer Sheep, the reason I made
it the way it was made was because, you know, at the time
(28:24):
when I was coming up, you know, it's you, you thought that you
can make a difference. You know, people come to you.
What do you think the black people want?
You know, what do you think? You know, this sort of thing And
you sort of thought you had to hand over the solution to
answer, right. So I made a film like
Killership, but just made everything, everything that
that's in the film happened in certain sense.
And so if I could say, if you want to know how to to resolve
(28:48):
some of the issues or find solutions, look at the film.
And because there's a holistic kind of approach to it.
And you tell me what to stand the main character in the family
needs and you tell me, what doesthe community look at?
This is what I see in the community around there.
So you tell me what, what do youthink?
It's not just one thing. It's not just education.
It's a whole list of things thathas to be done maybe at the same
(29:10):
time. And so so I had to make a film
where it's not necessarily my opinion, right?
But it's like what what you would see and you can make a
decision yourself. What do you think it needs?
They come from this sort of a whole idea doing it from a
documentary's point of view, right, You know, and and, and so
(29:31):
that's why I got out of, you know, having to to confront
people in the community, you know, and find out there's had
just one opinion. And and and so that that's how
like that's how I came to make the film the way I did.
Charles. It has been absolutely
fascinating having this conversation with you.
(29:51):
Thank you. I wish we had more time, but
maybe next time, OK? Charles Burnett.
Shows us what's possible when film makers commit to telling
real stories with care and intention.
Throughout his career, he has shown us how storytelling can
preserve history, center community voices, and reveal
meaning in everyday moments. We're grateful for the insight
(30:15):
he shared with us and for the clarity he brings to what
purposeful storytelling can looklike.
Thanks. For listening to.
Unapologetically creative. Be sure to follow the show and
stay tuned for more insightful conversations in the episodes.
Ahead to learn more about. The Vermont College of Fine Arts
visit vcfa.edu.
I wanted to tell stories about my neighborhood, about the
people I grew up with and parents, the single parents of
the fat family members and things that that were trying to
make a difference. Welcome to Unapologetically
Creative, a podcast from the Vermont College of Fine Arts,
(00:25):
where we celebrate bold artistry, transformative
creativity, and the audacious voices shaping the future of the
arts. I'm your host, Andrew Ram Sammy,
and in this series, we dive intohonest, inspiring conversations
with artists who are pushing boundaries and redefining what
it means to create work that resonates and endures.
(00:51):
Today's conversation is a rare one.
We're honored to speak with Charles Burnett, one of the most
influential film makers in American cinema.
Raised in Watts after being bornin Vicksburg, Ms., Charles came
of an age during a period of profound cultural and social
change that shaped his approach to storytelling.
(01:12):
From Killer of sheep to a body of work that has earned him an
Academy Honorary Award and recognition as a MacArthur
Fellow, Charles has dedicated his career to portraying
everyday life with honesty and care.
His experiences growing up, studying at UCLA and working as
a self funded filmmaker informedhis belief that film must do
(01:34):
more than just entertain. Today, we're going to explore
storytelling as a responsibility, the importance
of community voice, and how meaningful stories can reflect
and respond to a world that continues to change.
Charles, welcome to an apologetically creative thank
you. Glad to be here.
When you hear all of that, a body of work that started in
(01:58):
1977, and Charles, I'm going to tell you that I was born in
1977. Good for you.
So I am 48 years old. You have been doing this work
now for almost close to 5 decades, to go from where you've
come from to where you're at now.
(02:19):
Especially what's going on in the moment right now in America.
What do you have to say? Oh, scary.
It's really scary. I, I, I, you know, everyone I
know it is and feel the same way.
And you know, people of color and they don't know if they're
going to be here, whether buy a house or plan or buy a house
someplace on another country. So it's, it's, it's been quite
(02:43):
interesting because what I, I, Iwent to school, the GCLA and
during the civil rights movementand things like that.
So there's this promise, this idea that, you know, we want to
be a part of America. America would be different.
You know, all this, all the progressive things that were
happening in the country, you know, you know, the right to
(03:04):
vote, all that sort of thing washappening during the period I
was growing up. And when I, I never imagined the
people I've talked to were the same age contemporaries.
We never thought that we would go, we would be going backwards
after we made all this progress and, and got ourselves in the
doorway and stuff, You know, andwe don't know if this country
(03:29):
going to exist like it did in the past, you know, in, in terms
of is we're going to be a, a democratic country, you know,
where people have our rights andbe encouraged to stay here and
live and raise a family. It's, it's, it's sort of
(03:49):
shocking the way things have changed.
I mean really revolutionized in a in a in a negative way.
Typically people look to folks like you for a more positive,
uplifting, inspiring story, but you're you're being very
practical in your response. How much of that weight do you
feel having done this work for so long and now to see to to
(04:13):
what you've just described progress regressing, do you feel
like you have a moral obligationto take on that responsibility
to be positive or to do what you've just exactly did to be
honest and truthful about the moment that we're in?
Well, I. Think, you know, having grown up
doing the civil rights movement,it was this notion that you,
you, you were responsible for making a change.
(04:38):
In fact, when I was going to UCLA in the 60s and the idea
when we were in film school, we were making films with the
notion that it was in effect social change.
We wouldn't do things that that,you know, unlike Hollywood, just
for entertainment. We were trying to do something
that had relevance, you know, and not just our purpose wasn't
(05:03):
just like I said, to entertain, but we were going back in the
past and looking at the heroes and people like Frederick
Douglass had to be Wells and andand and Martin Luther King and
Malcolm X, people who are who are trying to make a difference
and future for us in this country.
And now you see it's all erodingor, but I think we have people
(05:26):
of color have to, to come together and decide that we have
to do something as a group, not individuals so much.
I want individuals as much as wecan, but but I think that the
the the force comes and the pressure comes from us acting as
in in a group to make a difference.
Being a person of color and thisspace of art and in particular
(05:50):
film is, I'm sure, has certainlybeen a challenging one for you.
Oh, it's been amazing that challenge in a way.
And I know a lot of friends of mine who you see when I got in,
when I got into film school in the 60s, we couldn't make films
and, and get them shown theatrically because it was, I
(06:10):
mean, when I, when I, like I said, when I got into film, I,
when I first started, I wanted to be a documentary film maker.
I wanted to be a cameraman person.
So I went to ECLA and it takes cinematography.
And even though I was taking this class, you know, it was, it
was understood that, you know, to be a first cameraman, you had
to wait 15 years or so to be a, a first camera person.
(06:31):
And that's if you were a white person, period.
But if you were black people, you were not given the
opportunity. And so I thought I was going to
be making films as a hobby and, and paying for them on the
weekends, on another job and andso forth.
But luckily things changed a bitand we were able to and make
(06:54):
films and, and screen them and they look very positive.
And then the Europeans looked atthe films and, and wrote very
positive things about us and, and film it.
It's like when we began to make an inroad into filmmaking and to
showing films. We had, I mean, we mean the
(07:16):
scoop of film makers, people of color who were making films at
the time. We knew that we had to do
something that would speak to people of color because if they
didn't have a voice in this industry at all, I wanted to.
I'd read a lot of black history,and there were a lot of people
(07:36):
in that really admired particularly.
I'd buy my. I'd buy the people I grew up
with, my neighbors. Yeah.
And, and, and, and I saw that they weren't represented in
film, you know, And so that's what I wanted to do when I got
into, when I got into filmmaking, I wanted to tell
stories about my neighborhood, about the people I grew up with
and parents, the single parents of the fat family members and
(08:00):
things that, that were trying tomake a difference.
And particularly to provide a sort of context for, for us as
as kids to, and, and how to, to,to, to, to grow up and be
responsible people. And because I remember, you
know, older people used to pass you by and say, boy, stay in
(08:23):
school, you know, and get a diploma.
And I realized that, you know, that was so, so important.
And they were doing the best. They're going to tell us to, to
how be productive and what you had to do to survive in this
country. And so I wanted to, to, to
express this notion that the, the images you see on television
(08:44):
are the one of the that always in the performing and just for
entertainment and stuff like that.
Although they're real people outthere, people who were really
trying to make a difference and raise a family and, and all
kinds of conditions. And and so that's what I wanted
to do is, is sort of like show who people of color where they
(09:06):
are. In The Killer of Sheep, you
crafted a amazing cinematic poemabout everyday life and Watts,
how did you find power in portraying the ordinary rather
than dramatizing it and talking about what you just talked
about, creating the buffoonery of what typically had been shown
around? Well, I mean, the people I saw
(09:28):
were people from the South. There was there was a like a
third wave of people from from the South occupying LA.
When I was coming up, it was hard to find anyone who was born
in LA after. I mean, there were a number of
people, probably black people born in LA, but it was it was a
rarity. And most of them were from there
were down many people and in my community were from the South,
(09:52):
you know, so we brought that culture with us.
They had this sort of way of, ofsitting in the porch and talking
about this Mississippi like it was this places, this this
mythological place. And so I always had this, even
though I went back in the summertime because I have an
uncle, because that's a preacherin, in Vicksburg, Ms. And so we
(10:14):
had to go back and, you know, and he was a preacher.
So we had to go to his church every day, you know, And so that
was so it kept us sort of reformed and kept us aware of
where we came from and so forth.And I remember that I don't want
(10:37):
to jump around, but let me tell you, one incident happened to me
when I went back to Vicksburg because we were going to go to
church and, and being like, because church and everything.
And we, we took a, a train from LA to New Orleans.
And then we were going to take from New Orleans to take another
(10:57):
train from New Orleans to, to Jackson, Ms. to Jackson, a bus
down to Vicksburg. And so my, my brother and I, we
got to, to New Orleans, we had amoment of change, change.
So we, we saw this, we were in, in, in the depot in, in New
Orleans. And there was this playroom, you
(11:18):
know, with his games and things.But, but so we went in there, my
brother and I, and we were like around 12/11/12 and it was all
white. And if we didn't pay any
attention, we just have a plan with the hands.
The next thing we know, we're the only ones in there, you
know, and this, this policeman and everyone came in and said
(11:38):
you don't belong in here, you know, and you saw all these five
people standing outside looking in, in the windows at us, you
know, like we're in some zoo or something, you know.
And so we had to leave. My grandmother had to come and
get us, you know, and then we took a jump crow train from New
Orleans to, to to Jackson to Jackson town, that bus down to
but you know, it took me almost 50 years to get over that
(12:01):
experience that, that being kicked out of this and cause LA,
there was this illusion she could go anywhere, right?
Or there wasn't. LA was just as just as
segregated many ways. You know, you couldn't get, you
know, you like you were on Central Ave. then you couldn't
go across Central Ave. and therewas like Avalon to Avalon.
And, you know, we were sort of far away W you know, and because
(12:25):
it was like it was a lot of sundowner towns here and so
forth. So you, you, you like in
Inglewood is virtually, you know, people of color now.
But when I was going there, you can go you, you worked there,
but you had to leave. And so you know.
And for those that don't know what a sundown town is, that is
literally by the time the sun goes down, you gotta be gone.
(12:47):
You gotta be a you as a a black person could not be there.
Yeah, there are a lot of things like that.
Inglewood, Glendale, always places like that.
You know, you can, there's many places.
And so you, it was very impressive here, you know, and
people think of course. Thinking as liberal and as
progressive as you think California or LA was.
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't. It wasn't.
(13:09):
Wow, so you've been a self funded filmmaker.
You You've written, you've shot,you've edited your own film.
How is mastering each one of those elements in production
influenced your own creative autonomy?
Well, one of the good things about going to UCLA at the time
was the fact that you had to, todo all those sort of things.
Unlike SC, you were, you know, you, you, you had to work in
(13:32):
everyone's film, right? You know, that's the only way
you can make a film. That was, you know, and, and,
and financing. It wasn't a question of money
because it, it wasn't one hand, but, but it was so inexpensive
to go to school here. Yeah, right.
I think if when I went to UCLA, I mean 1/4 a four quarter each
quarter, it was only $15, fifteen, $25, you know.
(13:54):
So we stayed there, you know, because it was all this
equipment there and the sound stages, editing equipment and so
forth. And it was making films.
So you had this? Really had this incredible
access. Yeah.
And, and it was, it was, it was really fun being there.
Yeah. You know, and, and they gave you
this all the freedom you want, you know, and so we worked on
everyone's film. And then when LSL Taylor, the
(14:16):
first black teacher that taught at UCI in the film department,
he had this program about ethniccommunications.
What encouraged you to do films about your, you know, your
experience, your background and people of color, you know,
right. And, and so then it became when
I first went, there was only a few black people there in the
film department or a handful. And then then suddenly over a
(14:41):
period, a short period of time, more, more people, black people
started coming into filmmaking and into the program.
And when it got to that part, everyone was making films or
trying to make films. So we had to help each other.
But but one of the good things about ECLA, they, they tell you,
you have to work on every, you know, price when we can do it.
And so it was a great experience.
(15:02):
And luckily that when we got there, when we got enough
people, a critical mass of people of color, we had this
community that were, we were always telling about what is a
black film, you know? And unfortunately we weren't,
they didn't show a lot of like Oscar Michelle films here until
(15:23):
later in, in my state, UCLA. And then we saw these films that
were made by the, in the, in thelate 20s and 30s and 40s by this
black film maker who was the first independence film maker,
white or black, you know, that made films that deal with the
black subject matter. And that was the first, first
time we saw films that what outside of third world films.
(15:47):
That's, that's it. This is what you should be
doing. These are things that you, this
is content you should have in your film.
You should be included in your film.
And so that was that was one of the best experiences we have,
understanding that they were black film makers and and actors
and artists that were there in the 20s and 30s that we didn't
(16:09):
know about. So that sounds like it informed
your thinking about the ability to then to to control your your
narrative, the narrative you wanted to create.
I think that and a number of other factors who came into
play. We had apparel Bowser who was in
who was a person who got together black films and and put
(16:31):
them on tour throughout the country, you know, pure bows and
Oliver Franklin. And and so we and we were
invited to go to these differentcities and black communities and
show our films and and have discussions and dialogue with
the communities. That was one of the best things
that happened because we got an idea what they wanted and what
(16:53):
we should be doing. And that occurs.
Other Black students come in andtry to make films because anyone
wanted to do something that was relevant, right?
You know, And it's always his give us an opportunity to have
direct contact with people of color and the people of the
community. We had to share the same
experience of logics and we didn't have a voice.
(17:15):
You had mentioned earlier about taking your films to Europe.
Were you and your films more socially accepted?
Outside the US, absolutely I seea positive because I'm glad you
brought that, you know, because we, we, we sort of had the same
sort of situation that ours black ours and and and and and
(17:36):
the states in the 20s and 30s and the Renaissance and so
forth. Well, you know, the jazz plays
with the Europe and things and found their voice and everything
and people. So, you know, said these are
real artists and they're writtenabout when we were when we did
the same thing in the 60s and 70s.
(17:58):
You know, we're invited to Germany, France and so forth.
And I got to, I was in Germany. I, I, I, I won two prizes in
Germany. There's a short Film Festival
right there and, and Oprah housing Film Festival.
And then at the Berlin Film Festival, killer, she won a, a
big, a major prize there. And all the, all the films that
(18:18):
we shown were in all the newspapers and all the magazines
and so forth. I'm like when I came back here.
Silence. So, so many of your films
weren't released until decades later, recognized decades later,
waiting for that type of recognition.
How did it shape your relationship with the work and
how did it shape your relationship with the audience?
(18:40):
And how did it shape your relationship with the industry?
Well, two things 1A Magic KillerSheep was done, was made like in
was thought of written in early and late 69 in the 6th and 6th,
early 60s. And I didn't.
The thing is, when was a studentfilm, I didn't have to worry
(19:01):
about getting rights to the music because it wasn't going to
be played theatrically. As long as it wasn't played
theatrically, I could do whatever I want with the rights.
And so I just put records and recordings on without getting
paid to them. I should have thought in the
future that I would have to probably deal with that.
I was going to get the actual distribution, but at that time
(19:22):
it wasn't. You didn't even think about.
It because it wasn't my name andso so it so when it was released
and made earlier, I had to wait till luckily Milestone came
along and wanted to distribute this film.
And so they unfortunately, unfortunately had, they had to
go and buy the, the music rightsand it took them a while to do
(19:44):
that because once the film is and the music is married to the
film, the, the publishers have you, you know, and so, but, but
Milestone really put an effort into to getting the rights and
then making it happen where theythey were able to release it in
the years, years later. Years later, yeah, when you look
(20:05):
like a if you look at a filmmaker now, like Ryan Coogler
and Sinners and his, you know, first film Fruitville Station
and obviously Black Panther and everything that's happened.
What what goes through your mindnow looking at at at black
filmmaking today? Well, people like you that and
who are really making films and showing that this they hadn't
(20:27):
made a film that's gotten almosta billion dollars, you know, So
like that's just totally unusual.
You know, it's like that, you know, if a film made and, and
and then the 50s on back, you know, $200,000, you know, at the
box office that was. That was a good day.
Yeah, of your day. Right.
You know, now, I mean, if you make a film, it doesn't do you
(20:48):
know greatly, you know that thatand financially well, it's not
considered but but he's proven in this a lot of people in that
that there is audience for blackfilms and they can make money.
And so this illusion that they don't make money is ridiculous.
You can't go. You can't come up with that
argument for and so. And a lot of.
(21:09):
People would want to discount even Tyler Perry and Tyler
Perry's influence and. Guys, billionaire now, right,
you know, and, and he's found anaudience, you know.
So, Charles, when you make a film and when you've made your
films, who have you made your films for?
Have you made them for yourself?Have you made them for a
community? Have you who?
Who's who's the film for? I would want to make films that
(21:31):
were really inspired kids, the young people and with family
members, whether it is a show that this film will inspire you
to, you know, like, like this. So many great people in our
community, like like Frederick Douglass, Evie Dubois, you know,
you can go on Mar Delaney and L and on.
And we need to to bring those people and celebrate them
(21:53):
continuously because they were in in surviving and doing things
when, you know, when they were didn't have the support, the
mass support and Martin Luther King's and and kids.
I I remember when I was going toschool in South Los Angeles, we
didn't have we, we had like one or two George Washington Carver
with anyone we we knew and aboveof you know, and that was it.
(22:17):
And so if I could and and and soI had no heroes in that sense.
And the only time it was that way after that I was able to go
go to the libraries and find thewho's people are and so forth
and Bright Spider. But but if I didn't know way
we'd advance, have been inspiredby these people, who they are
and what they went through and everything, I'd have been a
(22:38):
different person. Well, I think you turned out
just fine. Well, you know, I've been a
little faster and, you know, I didn't know better.
These are the kind of people I want to write films about, you
know, sort of discovering it as I go, you know?
If you have one lesson to offer your younger self, if you had a
ability to go back to your time at UCLA or anytime early on your
(22:58):
career, what would you tell thatyoung Charles?
To be exploring more and to really understand black people a
lot more, you know, blue color and what they have gone through.
I mean, you know, one of the things that being from the
South, you know, the whole idea of lynching was a constant
(23:19):
conversation, like with my family, you know, and my mother
said she'd never go back down South, you know, the cousins and
things like that. No, no, no.
And, you know, I didn't know what, you know, you see lynching
pictures of photographs and things like that of people and
all these people I looked at andit looked like people I knew,
you know, and young people, you know.
And then that as I grew out, I discovered what Ray Lynch was
(23:42):
about, right? You know, the horror of it, you
know, and beyond just stranglingsomeone and strangling and and
so forth. But for someone that hates
someone like the, and then the mutilator target practice and
stuff. And I, I, I, to this day, I
don't understand that, you know,and, and I, and one of the
(24:02):
things that, you know, Ida B Wells is just kind of like a
special person in my mind, because that's what she stood
for and what she did, you know, and the fact that ironically,
her great granddaughter, a lot of her family moved in Chicago
and things like that, But her, her great granddaughter lived
behind me and, and I live on in like in, in the Windsor Hills
(24:26):
area and his apartments. I was good.
And Bill Greece was a film maker, documentary film maker,
well known documentary film maker.
He was also an actor in Oscar Michelle's films, stuff like
that. And so he wanted me to help him
and because we were in Paris together and as a, you know,
that whole thing about discovering who you are and
(24:47):
having been validated in in Europe.
And so he called me and says, look, I'm I'm going to do this
film. I need you to help me on this
thing. I said sure.
You want me to do sound. So he so he I said, sure.
So he gave me the address of where I'm going to meet this
crew up and meet at this particular location where Andy
(25:08):
Will's granddaughter lived. And so I looked at the address
and so I went there and ahead oftime to sort of like lay off the
location, right. Just scout it out.
Yeah. And this I went.
There and I was surprised that it was right around the corner
from my from my partner around my house.
And it just shows you how just one step away or 1° away.
Yeah, so and and you know so shocked anyway, so I got the
(25:31):
chance to. But she was an ambulatory,
bedridden and so forth and aged but able to.
You're closer to history. Than you know you are Oh yeah,
it it it's. I think one of the good things
about this, about being a filmmaker is that it allows you
to to, you know, to, to combine the fine heroes that you want to
(25:52):
make films up and realize that they were people who had made
million sacrifices for you. And you should know who they
are, you know at. 80 what does it mean to you to be
unapologetically creative your film has to.
Be something that justifies spending money on when they
(26:12):
could be more valuable to a starving person, right?
You know, a person who needs surgery or something like that.
You know, there's this this whole thing where they have, you
know, kids have crept lips and and you know, and it asks you
for a donation to give them a free medical care, whatever it
is, right. And so you have these choices,
you know, where kind of put the money is going to do the most
(26:34):
good. And I'm not too sure.
That's the only thing that I'm not too sure of is this.
If it does well to to to put in film only when someone's comes
and say, you know, you're from changing my life, whatever it is
made me do this and that fine. So that's why I still still in
the business, you know, so to speak.
Well, Charles. I think you.
Have. Left us a legacy of your
(26:56):
filmmaking and I hope that when people hear this that they'll be
inspired by what you've created,not only for black cinema,
independent cinema, but just cinema itself.
Well, thank you. What do you hope that?
Your work will continue to do when you're long gone from from
(27:18):
this earth. I I.
Well, I hope it has encouraged people to, to look at film more
than just entertainment. You know, that it's, it's, it's
a way to people to see themselves and to transformation
and something like, you know, some sort of guidance or some
(27:40):
sort of say this is, you know, you should be thinking about
this and not, not that I I'm oneof the things that, but I did
kill a sheep. I realized that, you know, I was
in the Watts. Amanda Watts on the right,
Right. Yeah.
And. One of the things that you are
aware of is that you know this who need a little coaching or
(28:04):
whatever it is. And so he hoped his film can
provide that. And, and that you're, you're
and, and, and knowing that also that you can't be pretentious
enough to say, well, I know whatthe answer is.
And I remember when I was doing Killer Sheep, the reason I made
it the way it was made was because, you know, at the time
(28:24):
when I was coming up, you know, it's you, you thought that you
can make a difference. You know, people come to you.
What do you think the black people want?
You know, what do you think? You know, this sort of thing And
you sort of thought you had to hand over the solution to
answer, right. So I made a film like
Killership, but just made everything, everything that
that's in the film happened in certain sense.
And so if I could say, if you want to know how to to resolve
(28:48):
some of the issues or find solutions, look at the film.
And because there's a holistic kind of approach to it.
And you tell me what to stand the main character in the family
needs and you tell me, what doesthe community look at?
This is what I see in the community around there.
So you tell me what, what do youthink?
It's not just one thing. It's not just education.
It's a whole list of things thathas to be done maybe at the same
(29:10):
time. And so so I had to make a film
where it's not necessarily my opinion, right?
But it's like what what you would see and you can make a
decision yourself. What do you think it needs?
They come from this sort of a whole idea doing it from a
documentary's point of view, right, You know, and and, and so
(29:31):
that's why I got out of, you know, having to to confront
people in the community, you know, and find out there's had
just one opinion. And and and so that that's how
like that's how I came to make the film the way I did.
Charles. It has been absolutely
fascinating having this conversation with you.
(29:51):
Thank you. I wish we had more time, but
maybe next time, OK? Charles Burnett.
Shows us what's possible when film makers commit to telling
real stories with care and intention.
Throughout his career, he has shown us how storytelling can
preserve history, center community voices, and reveal
meaning in everyday moments. We're grateful for the insight
(30:15):
he shared with us and for the clarity he brings to what
purposeful storytelling can looklike.
Thanks. For listening to.
Unapologetically creative. Be sure to follow the show and
stay tuned for more insightful conversations in the episodes.
Ahead to learn more about. The Vermont College of Fine Arts
visit vcfa.edu.
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