S 3 E: 3 The Invisible Struggles: Being Irrelevant

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Facing the harsh reality of feeling invisible in the healthcare system can be overwhelming, especially when battling chronic conditions. Donna returns to share her courageous journey through the maze of medical gaslighting, where her invisible illnesses were often dismissed. We unravel the staggering fact that obtaining a proper diagnosis for issues like autoimmune diseases can take nearly a decade. Learn how to empower yourself with essential strategies for advocating in medical settings, from tracking symptoms in a notepad to bringing a trusted ally to appointments. We also challenge the irony of doctors relying on Google and stress the power of self-advocacy in demanding more than just textbook answers.

The challenge of communication within the healthcare system isn’t just a personal struggle; it's a systemic issue affecting countless individuals. We reflect on the pressures medical professionals face to prioritize the number of patients over the quality of care, leading to ethical dilemmas and a sense of irrelevance among older patients. From navigating a cancer diagnosis during a pandemic to the hurdles posed by staff shortages, our conversation underscores the urgency of being a proactive health advocate. Tune in for heartfelt stories and practical tips, like refusing unnecessary procedures, to help you navigate these choppy waters with confidence.

Feelings of irrelevance extend far beyond the doctor's office. We explore how societal pressures can strain personal relationships, with unbalanced friendships and forgotten birthdays serving as poignant reminders. By sharing personal anecdotes, we emphasize the importance of genuine connections, empathy, and meaningful interaction in an age dominated by superficial social media exchanges. Through stories of disappointment and the power of kindness, we invite you to reflect on how small gestures can bridge the gap of irrelevance, fostering deeper connections in both our personal and communal lives.

Loneliness in the United States: A 2018 National Panel Survey of Demographic, Structural, Cognitive, and Behavioral Characteristics - Liana DesHarnais Bruce, Joshua S. Wu, Stuart L. Lustig, Daniel W. Russell, Douglas A. Nemecek, 2019

America has a loneliness epidemic. Here are 6 steps to address it : NPR

Marie Kondo Your Life: How To End Toxic Friendships, Bad Habits

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
This podcast is not intended to serve as therapeutic
advice or to replace anyprofessional treatment.
These opinions belong to us anddo not reflect any company or
agency.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode
of the United States of PTSD.
Today I have a returningco-host, my friend Donna.
She was episodes.
No, I forgot the episode it was, but it was season two.
You did Life as an Empath, yes,and it was just such a great
episode.
Thank you so much for doingthat.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
Oh, I enjoyed it anytime.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
So you are back today and we are doing a topic that
we both have talked aboutindependently, and that is the
fear of being irrelevant, and Ithink what's going to be great
about this episode is that youand I are actually going to be
kind of live, processing it andlike what it's like for us and
this may resonate with a lot ofpeople out there who are
experiencing the same thing.

(01:09):
And, based on some research thatpreliminary research I did,
there are quite a few studiesthat one was even out before
COVID.
It came out in 2018.
Sage has an article on it thattalks about how I think it was
43% of people over the age of 45feel lonely, and that was
pre-COVID and after COVID, Ithink the numbers are even

(01:29):
higher.
There was a study that NPR didthat talked about how, even
though we have more options ofconnection, people are feeling
more isolated than ever, and Ido think this ties nicely into
the fear of being irrelevant,which is, ironically, the topic
we're doing right beforeThanksgiving, which is all about
giving thanks and beingthankful and grateful for

(01:49):
everything.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
And everything has a negative and positive.
If you think of beingirrelevant, we look at that as a
negative, but sometimes we canhave the opportunity to change
that into a positive Sure, andmaybe that's a way to look at
what we're feeling right now.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
So, donna, once you had talked about when we were
throwing around ideas about thefeeling of being irrelevant in
the medical community, and Ithink that is such a huge thing.
I've experienced it, not nearlyas much as you have.
I've experienced it with thatterrible doctor I did an episode
on in season one.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat, what that's been like?

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Sure, back in 2017, I got very sick and since then
I've been battling many, manydifferent chronic health issues,
pain issues, and you go to thedoctor and the first thing they
do is, like a CBC, they checkthe basic line things and if you
look okay, well, there'snothing wrong, so they send you
on your way.
But it really impacts youemotionally, physically,

(02:46):
psychologically.
It's difficult enough to go andput yourself out there to talk
to a doctor and say, okay, I'vegot this going on.
But when you feel like you'remedically gaslighted into
feeling well, there's nothingwrong, we've done this test,
we've done that test.
I don't know what else you wantme to do.
I want you to find out what'swrong with me, because some

(03:08):
people are not textbook and mydoctor had told me you're not
textbook and so when you haveinvisible illnesses, invisible
illnesses, conditions likeautoimmune disease, mental
health issues, chronic healthissues we're talking lupus, ms
there's thousands of differentautoimmune diseases that
somebody could look at you andnot think that you're sick

(03:29):
because you look quote unquotenormal.
It takes a lot of work,mentally and physically to look
and act normal and it's notalways easy and it's tiring and
it's exhausting.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
And that brings up the whole conversation of what
is actually normal, which is.
You know, normal is an illusionin general.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
It is.
It's a setting on a washingmachine.
That's what normal is.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Which, by the way, never works anyway.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
Right, I am far from normal and I embrace that, but
you can end up gettingmisdiagnosis.
I read an article that saidthat most people will be
misdiagnosed and it takes eightto ten years to get an actual
diagnosis of what is wrong withthem eight to ten years yeah,
and I'm on my eighth year.
That's so disturbing,frustrating.

(04:13):
It's frustrating.
I know people who werediagnosed with fibromyalgia
originally and come to fanna itwas ms and people I want you to
understand.
You know your own body.
You have to just keepadvocating for yourself because
if you don't, you're just anumber.
When you go to the doctor'soffice, they're so quick to move
you on because they have to seeso many patients, and I get

(04:34):
that, but they over rely ondiagnostic testing instead of
just listening to the patient.
Like I said before, listen insilent, have the same letters.
You know.
Just listen to the patient.
Like I said before, listen andsilent, have the same letters.
You know, just listen to yourpatient.
And you know, and it has animpact on the patient because
you feel dismissed and then youcan.
It can lead to avoidance ofmedical care and it affects your

(04:55):
mental health anxiety, trauma,depression and it can.
It can even say you know, Idon't want to go back to the
doctors anymore, when youactually do have something.
Really, really it's awful, thatneeds to be addressed and I
found that.
What helped me when I went tothe doctors?
Before I went, I have an iPhoneand there's a notepad in there

(05:15):
and I would write down all myquestions, questions, any
symptoms.
So when I got there I didn'twaste time thinking what did I
need to ask him, and he wasquite happy that I did that,
because he said let me see yourlist.
Let's go off of them one at atime, because sometimes the time
is so managed that they don'thave a lot of time just to talk
in conversation about what youhave going on.

(05:35):
But if you have a list, ithelps keep you focused and it
helps them stay focused.
The funniest thing I found waswhen the doctor just uses Google
to find out what's wrong withyou.
You know it's just, and he saysI'm using Google to see you
know what could come up.
It's a little scary.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
That's very scary.
Did you think about justautoimmune disorders in general?
I mean, how long was it beforefibromyalgia was actually even
considered a thing, wherepreviously that they were just
telling people it was all intheir head?
It is, yeah, same thing withdepression.
I mean, at one point in timethey thought depression was
demonic possession or you knowthere was all these like reasons
why, exactly you know, I thinkwhat you would talk about.

(06:12):
Writing notes is really great,because it certainly helps keep
us focused.
I think the the other problemwith that there was it takes the
onus off the medicalprofessional as well to to do
their job, and it does.
And I get what you're sayingabout as a somebody who works in
the medical field myself.
I mean, it is about schedulingand I've worked in settings
where it's about census, right.

(06:32):
It's not about quality of care,it's about, like, how many
people can you get exactly anhour?
And you know, as practitionersor people who are in the field,
if you're doing that, you'repart of the system.
That's broken.
And we all have to acceptaccountability for that.
One of the reasons why I leftan agency was because they were
doing that and I couldn't it.

(06:53):
Just it didn't fit with mymoral compass Like I can't do
that.

Speaker 1 (06:56):
No, I agree.
And you think of an elderlypatient, for example.
They grew up in a culture andan era where what the doctor
says was what the doctor says.
He's right and I have.
No, I have no reason todistrust them.
I should not even ask questions.
I should just tell them.
If they tell me I need thispill, I'm going to take it.
Where the generation that we'rein now, people in their maybe
40s, 50s, 60s are realizing youcan ask questions.

(07:19):
You can tell the doctor no,this is not right, I don't want
to do this, and you have to justadvocate for yourself.
The older generation, they'lllook at it.
Well, you know, you're justaging and I'm finding this out
now.
When I turned 60 last year, Ifell into that category.
I noticed that I startedgetting questionnaires before my
visit of do you fall?

(07:40):
Do you feel safe?
Is somebody hurting you?
Do you need help?
Do you feel saved?
Is somebody hurting you?
Do you need help?
It was all these questionsrelated to balance and all of
that, and I understand they'rebeing proactive, but it was just
like when you hit that 60 mark,you're in a different category.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
Which, by the way, also goes to the topic of being
irrelevant too.
Exactly, there are certainparticularly for women right,
there's a certain age wherewomen hit and then society sees
them as being irrelevant.
Usually it's after thechildbearing age.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
Childbearing age, I should say.
And with gay men it's the samething.
There's this kind of joke likeonce you hit 30, you're dead in
the gay community, right, likeyou're completely irrelevant
ever again.
It's true, I'm starting to seemore and more of that in
different aspects of our society, where it just seems like human
relationships are just becominga throwaway.
There's a lack of regard forthe person that's sitting in

(08:34):
front of you and what feelingsthey may be experiencing.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
And when you get used to that feeling of irrelevance,
especially when you go to thedoctors, you're afraid to even
bring anything up.
In 2020, during the height ofpandemic, I was diagnosed with
cancer, with endometrial cancer.
I was terrified because I knewone, were in the height of COVID
and everything was basicallyshut down and I was scared that
I would be dismissed, becausethat's what I was used to and

(09:02):
fortunately, because of COVID, Iwas able to get one of the best
oncology surgeons in Boston andit was very quick action.
You know, from diagnosis tosurgery was a month, that's it,
whereas in today it's taken mefour to six months to get an
appointment with a neurologistand then when you get off the
phone, you feel irrelevant.

(09:22):
You're like don't they realizeI have issues?
Don't they realize that peoplehave problems?
And when I asked my doctor this, he says a lot of medical
medical professionals,professionals, left the medical
field during covid because itwas just so overwhelming and so
they don't have the staff thatthey need to be able to see
patients timely anymore.
And that's sad because that'smaking people feel more

(09:43):
irrelevant and when that happensit's a snowball effect.
They don't take care of theirhealth, they just don't do
anything.
You know, and one of the thingsthat you notice when you go to
the doctor is the first thing.
They of course you get to doyour weight when you go in and I
say no, not today, because I'msad enough, I don't need to be
more sad, so I'm not going totake my weight.
But they always he looks at meand I'm like don't even go there

(10:10):
, don't even go there.
You know, I've gained and lost10 pounds in the last five years
, so don't even go there.
But the first thing they alwaysfocus on is your weight.
They think because you haveweight issues, you eat all the
time.
Yep, you don't look at therelevance of the medication you
take, the health conditions youhave there are.
There are definitely certainmedications that there's a lot
and you can gain 10 pounds inlike a month, I mean I've seen,

(10:31):
especially like there's certainmental health medications that
oh yeah, antipsychotics arenotorious for this.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
You put somebody on it.
Within like three monthsthey've gained 30 40 pounds,
yeah and they don't look at that.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
You're a number, you're a statistic, and so I, to
be your own health advocate,don't take what they say at face

(11:06):
value.
You have the opportunity to geta second opinion.
Bring someone with you to anappointment because you may not
always remember, my husband goesto the doctors I can't go with
him anymore because of mymobility issues but when he's
there that he asked the doctorcan I conference in my wife and
I do, and because he doesn't'tremember what the doctor says or
the questions to ask, so I do,and so the doctor appreciates

(11:28):
that, because you're actuallyhaving somebody there who can
ask the questions for you.
But you don't want to be put inthe box of being irrelevant
because you're there and youdon't remember what you want to
say, because then they justbrush you off.
So use that time wisely.
Yes, their time is precious andso is yours, but make the most
of it so that you don't getblocked off as being irrelevant.

(11:49):
You know you've got to keepasking the questions.
If there's a patient portal andinstead of going to the doctor
to ask a question, send itthrough the patient portal.
You know you want to asksomething.
Send it through the patientportal.
You have to remain relevant intoday's society, especially when
so many people are strugglingmedically.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
Talk about irrelevant , right?
I had actually just recently,so I've had the same dentist for
I don't know 30 years.
Actually, really, I like mydentist.
Obviously I've been going for30 years, right, but I had to
cancel cleaning I think that wasthree weeks ago and left a
message to reschedule.
I still haven't received aphone call back.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
That's sad.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
And my doctor's office and I I like my doctor
too.
It took me really long to findher.
I called something was wrongwith their phone system, so I
called for literally 14 days ina row.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
It just would ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, and then
it would transfer the operatorand then it would hang up and
there's like no answeringmachine.
I had to drive down there anhour away just to find out when
my appointment was, because Icouldn't get a hold of them.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Oh my goodness, they would know something was wrong.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
So then they they said oh, we're aware of that,
we're kind of working on it,call this number instead,
because that number doesn't work.
And then I get home and I theyhad called me to cancel my
appointment because my doctorwent on a maternity leave.
And when I called the secondnumber, they gave me the exact
same thing happened.
It just kept ringing, ringing,ringing, busy signal hang up, no
voicemail.
And I was like and of coursethere's no website, you can't go

(13:12):
to the website.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
And contact them either.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
So I'm like what is going on?

Speaker 1 (13:19):
Right.
All my doctors are inMassachusetts and they all have
websites and they all havepatient portals and, believe me,
I utilize them because it makesit easy to communicate, because
for me to sit on the phone foran hour, I don't have the energy
Between taking care of myhealth problems and health
issues, and my husband's as well.
I could literally be on thephone all day long.
If I can send a message to thepatient portal and they get back

(13:43):
to me when they can, I'm okaywith that.
A message to the patient portaland they get back to me when
they can, I'm okay with that.
But it's just efficiency, Ithink, is a problem in a lot of
areas and it makes the patientfeel irrelevant because they're
not getting a call back, they'renot getting a message back.
Why don't they care?
Don't they realize that so manypeople are hurting and it's a
vicious circle?
It's a vicious circle.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
I see it in my field too.
I've heard from multiple peoplethat I've worked with about
previous therapists they've hadwhere they felt like they were
just a number to them, and Idon't treat my clients that way.
I mean, I'm very invested inall of my clients and the work
that I do and I hope that theywould all agree with that.
You, you know I certainly theircare is very important to me.

(14:25):
I try to never minimize it andI'm there as much as I can to
hear what they're talking about.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Of course, as it should be.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
It takes a while to find the right therapist too.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
Of course, if you find the right therapist, you
don't want to let them go.
You want to make because youpoured everything into them and
I have been lucky that thetherapists I've had have been
very good.
And I think that when you treatyour body, you have to also
treat your mind.
The mind-body connection isreal, it's powerful and you

(14:56):
can't do one without the other.
I'm a big advocate for therapyand I will wait on a wait list
for a therapist if I want to seeone.
I changed therapist this yearbecause she was no longer taking
my insurance.
But to tell you how good shewas, she was willing to just
have me pay what my copay wouldbe and that would be okay, and I
was like wow, that's exactlywhat I do too.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
I've had clients the same thing where they have
either take, they've switched toinsurance.
I don't take and I'll just freeservice them, because one it's
not often right.
So it's not like I'm freeservicing like every single
person on my caseload becauseobviously I couldn't survive
that way.
But when you have, you know,when you have a connection with
somebody, you don't just severit because they suddenly can't

(15:34):
pay you anymore.
I mean, I think that personally,in my opinion, I think that
that's abandonment of care,which is in our code of ethics.
You don't Exactly, I believeit's in the code of ethics of
all medical professionals, butunfortunately we live in a
capitalist society.
Yes, we do, and it's all aboutlike okay, you can't pay, get
out.
I saw this when I worked inmethadone.
We would have clients who wouldwant to taper off methadone and

(15:57):
that's a whole other topic Icould spend an entire podcast on
.
But that was all about likeprofit and keeping people on it
and you know, they would want totaper off of it and there'd be
some reason why they weren'tstable, so they weren't allowed
to taper off of it.
So what they would do is theywould just stop paying, because
they knew if they stopped payingthey'd be tapered off of it in
10 days.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Oh wow, that's drastic.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
But that's what it is .
It's all about of people couldconnect to.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
I think a lot of people would people that I have
connected with.
I know my experience with it,and it's sad because you leave
the doctor's office morefrustrated than when you got
there, because they made youfeel like crap, they minimized
you, they looked at all thenegative about you instead of
the positive, pushing thingsthat they know you won't do and

(16:51):
it's just.
No, that's not something that Iwant to do.
I don't have an eating issue, Ihave a metabolic issue.
It's just that instead oflooking at the whole person,
they're just quick to judge.
I one time went to see a newdoctor, an orthopedic doctor,
never met him before he walkedin the room and the first thing
he says to me when he looks atme so what diabetic medication

(17:13):
are you on?
I'm not diabetic.
Well, you have to be diabetic.
No, I'm not diabetic.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
I'm not diabetic.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
And he's not the first one.
I saw a new neurologist acouple of weeks ago and I
thought that he would be able tohelp me because I didn't know
what was going on.
He made me feel so irrelevantin that room.
My husband was with me.
He actually put up his hand tohave me stop talking and he
turned to my husband and said sowhat's going on with her?

Speaker 2 (17:43):
Well, that's just also misogynistic, I mean.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
I did not want to give him the satisfaction of
seeing me cry, because when youlet someone see you crying, when
they're in that power dynamic,they'll use it to their
advantage.
I was so mortified and myhusband looked at me and he
shook his head and he said well,you need to talk to her.
She's the one that's got theproblem.
I know what's going on, but youneed to speak with her.
And so he went to bat for me,like he always does.
But at the same time, in thisday and age, when he was an

(18:16):
older doctor, he just he put uphis hand, stopped me from
talking and made me feel soirrelevant and made me feel like
I was wasting his time.
He goes well, we can do thistest and that test, and it's
going to cost money, but youknow everybody's going to pay
for it anyway.
So what's the difference?
And he was just so misogynistic.

(18:36):
I left there and I did notreschedule the appointment, I
didn't follow up and I'm likeyou know, I can't.
I cried all the way home.
I held it until I got in thecar and I cried all the way home
because it was just anotherreason why I have this awful
medical PTSD because of whatthese doctors do and will I stop
seeing them?
No, because I want answers, butat the same time, when they

(19:00):
make you feel so irrelevant andso diminished and significant,
it sucks yeah it really does,and you have to just find a way
to get past them and not realize.
You will find that doctor thatis going to listen to you, that
is going to look outside the boxright, but you don't give up.

(19:21):
Patients don't give up, peopledon't give up.
Keep advocating.
There's no reason that you needto feel irrelevant, especially
when it comes to your medicalcare, your mental health care.
Don't give up and just keep ongoing.

Speaker 2 (19:34):
Yeah, no, you're 100% right.
That made me think of anotherscenario too, again related to
that dentist, and I know this isgoing to make the dentist sound
bad, but I do have to say in 30years there's only been two
things, but terrible.
One of them was a couple ofyears ago.
I had an infection, like it wasan abscess, and I went there.

(19:54):
They looked at it.
They said, okay, take thisantibiotic.
They were going to do rootcanal.
So I took the antibiotic and itjust got worse, like the pain,
and particularly when pain'sinvolved, right, like nobody
wants to hear it when you're inpain, right.
Which is funny because if yougo back 10 years ago, the only
thing people cared about waspain, because big pharma was
pushing Oxycontin and code and aPercocet like it was candy
going out of style, right.

(20:14):
So now it's like nobody, nobodycan get it.
So the pain was just gettingworse and worse, and worse and
worse.
And I remember I called and thedental assistant had said well,
just, you know, double up onthe penicillin, because
obviously it's just not working.
And I said oh, my goodness.
So you're supposed to do that?
And she's like, yeah, yeah,double up on it.
So I did, cause that's whatthey told me to do.

(20:34):
And it got worse and worse andworse.
And then it got to the pointwhere there was one night it was
so bad, so bad.
I was taking Tylenol, umibuprofen.
I had Vicodin left over forsomething, so I took a Vicodin
and I took a shot of whiskey andI swear to God I'm not even
kidding If I had a gun I wouldhave shot myself.
That's how much pain I was inthat night, like it would not go

(20:56):
away.
And I remember calling andsaying that and she was like, oh
, just, you know, alternateibuprofen with Tylenol, because
you know that's, that's just asgood as an opiate.
I'm like, clearly you've neverbeen in dental pain it so the
interesting thing was.
So then I got a referral to aparent dentist and I went there.
She took one look in my mouthand she goes okay, number one,
you have thrush because of allthe antibiotics that you were

(21:19):
taking.
And she said and it's clearlynot working.
And she's like this is soinfected that you're lucky it's
not septic.
So then they put me on thecorrect antibiotic and then, of
course, within like a day, I wasfine right, cause I was on the
correct antibiotic.
And then, of course, withinlike a day, I was fine right,
because I was on the correctantibiotic.
But that whole thing happenedbecause I was just being
dismissed.
And the other thing thathappened was I remember it was

(21:39):
really late in the morning Ishould say it was really early
in the morning, it was like oneor two o'clock in the morning
and there was a moment where Iwent from being in tons of pain
to no pain and it was the firsttime I was in no pain in days
and I thought what is going on?
And then also my face startedgoing numb.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
So now I think I'm having a stroke.
So I called 911 and I explainedit to them on the phone.
I said listen, I don't knowwhat's going on.
I you know I was in all thispain.
Now I'm not in pain, my face isnumb.
I'm concerned.
I'm having told you.
And they said so you're justlooking for pain meds.
And I looked at her and I saidwhat part of the reason why I'm

(22:18):
calling you is because I'm notin pain.
Did you not hear?
Like I'm not in pain, that'sthe problem.
And my face is numb.
And she was just like well,what do you want us to do about
it?
She was like there's no dentalclinic in the state of rhode
island.
She's like we can take you tofatima, but they're just going
to charge you a lot of money andprobably send you home.
And I'm like great thanks forwasting my time, peace out.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
But you know, talk about just being like irrelevant
we have run into that with emtsas well, yep it's just going to
the hospital it's just, it'sterrible it is a couple of weeks
ago when I had we were talkingabout off the recording I had a
kidney stone attack and I endedup at a hospital in

(22:58):
Massachusetts and if anyone hasever had a kidney stone it is
one of the worst pains of yourlife.
And when I got there, finallythey got me into a room and I
had told them that I had takensomething for pain before I had
left, but it didn't even work.
And so, through the process,like an hour or two later, they

(23:18):
said do you want something forpain?
I said I do, but I can't takefentanyl, I can't take morphine,
but dilaudid is okay, but Idon't need much of it for it to
work.
Very low dose.
Okay, we'll get that order in.
They asked me eight times coming, eight separate times, eight

(23:39):
different people would you likesomething for pain?
I said yes, every time myhusband's sitting on the side of
me.
I was there for six hours.
I never received anything forpain.
So talk about feelingirrelevant.
I was just at that point, Ijust wanted to go home.
I was just at that point, Ijust wanted to go home.
And the next day I read thereport of the ER report.
On it.
It says we administered 0.5milligrams of Dilaudid to a

(24:02):
patient and she felt better.
I was like, excuse me.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
But they actually never gave you any.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Never gave it to me.
I asked my husband, I said didI receive the medication?
And I don't remember.
He said nope, they put an IVline in and that's all they did.
They didn't put a bag ofnothing.
And so I called the hospitaland I said you know, this is
wrong.
This is a falsifying medicalrecord.
Well, I don't see it on here.
Well, I'm looking at it.
Are you sure it's your record?
Yeah, so again being made tofeel irrelevant because they

(24:32):
weren't believing me.
And I was just mortified and Ibrought it up to my doctor and
he said wow, that's all he couldsay was wow, because I pointed
it out to him.
He goes.
That's not the first time I'veseen that.
Sadly, I'm like it's not that Iwas seeking drugs, but I was
having a kidney stone attack.
It's painful.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Donna, I have to ask was it landmark?

Speaker 1 (24:53):
No, no, I probably should have gone there because
all of my kidney issues are atMilford Hospital, so because I
have a complicated history withkidney problems, my husband
drove me there, but halfwaythere up to Menden I couldn't, I

(25:13):
was going to pass out.
We pulled into the policestation and I said you have to
get them to call the rescuebecause I can't, I couldn't, I
was going to pass out.
We pulled into the policestation and I said you have to
get them to call the rescuebecause I can't, I can't, I'm
going to pass out.
So they called the rescue.
They were very nice, got me tothe hospital but there was no
sense of urgency.
When I got there, I am likewrithing in pain and they put me
in a stretcher in front of thenurse's station and then asked
me all the admission questions.
I'm like I just want this thingHelp me.
You know I'm in a lot of painand I didn't want to be mean, I

(25:36):
wasn't rude, I stayed calm, Icried quietly but I was in so
much pain and they just went ontheir merry time and it wasn't
busy, they just did their ownthing and I was just like wow,
feeling insignificant, feelinglike I didn't matter, feeling
irrelevant, and it made me soangry that I just I just wanted

(25:57):
to get out of there.
Six hours later I was able andI passed the stone.
I was there, but six hourslater, with no pain meds, of
just feeling irrelevant, and Isaid, you know what?
I should have gone to the localhospital.
I probably would have beenbetter off.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
So, uh, note to self, don't go up to milford anymore,
I don't have to so for those ofyou that are not local, um, the
reason why I asked aboutlandmark is because it's close
to where donna lives andlandmark has a terrible
reputation.
They almost, they almost havelike a um, I don't even know
it's they're almost famous forhaving a terrible reputation,

(26:36):
right, and that hasn't changedover like decades.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
So, no, no, that's interesting and I would go there
in a pinch.
And they did save my husband'slife, so I have to give him
credit for that twice but, atthe same time.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
It's just well, you know what they say a broken
clock is always right twice aday.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
That's true and again , even there I've had
experiences and I'm like what iswrong with people?
You know, people matter, youknow, and it's like that's.
If they're busy, I get it, Iunderstand, but when it's not
busy, the waiting room is emptyand you have empty rooms,
obviously it's not a stressfulsituation.
Just give me something for pain.

(27:15):
I don't care if it's Tylenolgive me something.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Well, to switch gears a little bit, because again,
it's still about it beingirrelevant.
And I think when it comes tobeing irrelevant in the medical
community, like I said, we'reall.
I think everybody can relate toit and even though it's really
frustrating, there's notnecessarily an emotional
attachment to it.
But when we talk about beingirrelevant in personal
relationships and irrelevant tothose around us, that's where it

(27:38):
becomes, I think, a harderconversation.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
It is.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
So, for example, I you know I kind of joke about
this, but I actually thinkthere's a reality to this.
I often, living alone in themiddle of nowhere, I often say
to myself and I've said this toother people I think if I took a
week at a work, at a week, ohmy God, I can't talk.
If I took a week out of workand just told you know, all my
clients, right, I'm going awayfor a vacation or whatever, and

(28:03):
then I died the next day, Idon't think anybody would even
know I was dead for probably twoweeks, because that's how
infrequently my friends andfamily call me and it just, you
know, it's really like when youthink about that that's, it's
very like strong feeling ofirrelevance, like it don't
matter that much, they can'teven jack on me.

(28:23):
And I do truly believe thatthat would happen if I died.

Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I get it.
I get it, it's, it's.
I think it's because sometimesI'm not to give excuses to
people, but we get so busymaking a living that we forget
to make a life and we forgetabout the people that are
important in our lives.
And whether you feel it throughfriends, family relationships,
or you just got that sinkingfeeling that you just don't

(28:48):
matter, that, like you said, youcould die, nobody would know.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
So I think the only thing I'm gonna say about that
is I think the whole being busything is is BS, and I'm going to
give you a reason why I think.
Well, first of all, I think wemake.
We make time for what'simportant to us.
We do One of my friends recentlysaid to me, in August, that I
had forgotten his birthday overthe past two years.
The reason why I forget hisbirthday is because it's very

(29:11):
close to mine, and last year wasmy 50th birthday.
So I was really, you know,planning my own birthday, I
might add, for obvious reasonsand so I was really kind of
consumed with that.
And when he told me that I washorrified, I'm like, oh my God,
I'm so sorry.
Like I didn't realize I didthat.
So I told my Alexa Alexa,remind me X date that it's his

(29:33):
birthday, so that that'll neverhappen again.
That took all of 10 seconds todo.
That's not.
Do you know what I mean?
And then I compare that to mybest friend, who I've been
friends with for 30 years andhave started to become more and
more aware that it's just a veryone-sided relationship, which
I'm seeing more and more of justin general.

(29:54):
And I had asked her to downloadthe podcast a long time ago,
obviously to get like more, moreviews and all that stuff.
And she did when I asked her toand then didn't again.
And then when I asked her againshe was like you know, I'm just
so busy.
And she's like, can you just,can you just remind me to do it?
And I'm like, no, I don't,should not have to remind you,
right, to do something for me.
You don't have to remind me todo things for you and I.
I think it's such a bs responsebecause if it's important,

(30:18):
you'll do it, and I just thinkthere's this.
There is this um again, thislack of human regard I was just
talking to this morning about.
Usually I do a friendsgivingevery every um year the day
after thanksgiving.
It's not always the same people.
I kind of alternate who I'mbringing or who's invited.
There are some people who goevery year and this year when I
tell you nobody would give me adefinitive response.

(30:41):
And you've made dinners before,I mean especially Thanksgiving
dinner.
It's a unique days to like,plan things in advance and just
no matter how many times I ask Idon't know, I don't know, let
me.
Let me get back to you.
I'm kind of busy and it's likejust say you don't want to go
Right, like stop wasting myfrickin time and stop being like
so self-centered.
And I even caught people inlies.

(31:01):
I had one person say to me thatshe, you know she couldn't take
the day out of work because shedesperately needed the money.
And then a week, zembroff and Iwas like just say you don't
want to go, like why do youthink people do that?

Speaker 1 (31:14):
for why do you think they have to just?

Speaker 2 (31:19):
skirt around the issue instead of just giving a
definitive answer.
I because I really I'd like tomake excuses for them.
I really would.
But if I examine my ownbehavior, if there's something
that I'm doing that with, it'sbecause I don't care.
And instead of just instead ofjust owning it and saying like
you know what I don't care, andinstead of just instead of just
owning it and saying like youknow what I don't care, like or
that's not something I want todo, people just kind of make
excuses, but when I catch you ina lie, I have no like forget it

(31:40):
, that's it.

Speaker 1 (31:41):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
And I'm just I'm seeing that happen more and more
and more, with people wherethey're just lying, and that is
I mean.
I'm at the point where I'm justquestioning, literally like all
of my friends, like everysingle one of them.

Speaker 1 (31:56):
I'm like you have to do that sometimes and you know,
now and then I'll clean up myfriends list.
I don't go out, I'm not asocial person, but on social
media I do have friends that I,you know, communicate with, but
there are some that you neverhear from.
So, you know, once a year I goand clean my friends list.
I'm like, well, if you see this, you're still my friend, thank
you, it's just.
I am not one, I'm a homebody bynature.

(32:17):
But at the same time you haveto keep those connections going,
whether you're doing it orsomeone else.
And I find the hardestconnections, believe it or not,
is with family, because I agreewith that, when you're raised a
certain way and you, when mykids were younger, they went to
their grandmothers, theirgrandparents every weekend my
mom's, my mom's house and myin-laws house we made sure they

(32:40):
saw the grandkids.
And now everybody's just sobusy that we don't see the
grandkids, we don't see anybodyand you feel irrelevant.
Because it's like we want tohave a relationship with our
grandchildren but if we don'tsee them and we can't drive out
to where they live, because it'sfar for my husband to drive and
with our health conditions, soit makes it challenging.

(33:00):
So you do feel irrelevant andyou feel really bad.
But sometimes you have to justsay I'm here, I'm not going
anywhere, you invite and youinvite and you invite and keep
the channels open and hope thateventually you know somebody
will reach out and say, hey,we're going to come over and
visit.
But at the same time, I thinkyou get to a point where you

(33:22):
have to stop beating yourself upand say, if they don't want to
be part of my life or be in mylife, I can't beat myself up for
that.
That's on them.
I can't beat myself up for that.
That's on them.
Right, you know they have toown that.
And I can't make someone cometo see me, can't make someone
come to a dinner party or to anevent if they don't want to.
You know, and the old me wouldjust be taking that.

(33:45):
So personal, sure, but you haveto just say you know what
that's on them.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
And if you don't want to be here, then let's so be it
I think that the difficulty isand this is something that you
can relate to so in buddhistthought, the expectations is
where suffering comes from.
Right, if you have andconnections, basically right.
That's where all sufferingcomes from.
So if you can detach and justlook at things objectively and

(34:10):
not have an expectation eitherway or just come from a really
neutral place, you won't suffer.
But the problem is, you're anempath and I am an empath, and
in order to be empathic you haveto have connections, so you
can't sever those.
It just it fundamentallywouldn't work.
I wouldn't be good at what Idid if I was just cutting out

(34:31):
relationships left and right andlike saying I'm going to look
at things through a completelydetached lens.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
Right, I've this this .
Beginning this year I was sovery frustrated with that
situation of people not wantingto be in our lives, or because
it was so busy or they were justoverscheduled or whatever it
was.
And I had I seen this term.
It was called detached withlove and it resonated with me
because it's not that you'recutting them out of your life,
but you have to stop beingresponsible for their behavior.

(35:00):
So what detached with love means?
Separating yourself emotionallyfrom someone else's problems or
behaviors in a compassionateway, without anger, without
judgment or trying to controltheir actions.
And when you can do that, Ithink you can get to a level
place for yourself of just beingokay with what it is.

(35:21):
You know that, saying it iswhat it is, you know it's a
cliche, but when you can say youknow what, you don't want to be
a part of this or you don'twant to come to my friendsgiving
, I'm going to detach with loveBecause this is not about me,
this is about you, and I thinkwhen you can look at it that way
, it gives it a little bit moreperspective and put things not
in a neat little box, but you'restill part of their lives, but

(35:44):
you're not responsible for thechoices that they make.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
In theory that makes sense and I would probably tell
the exact same thing to a client.
So I mean, in theory that makessense and I would probably tell
the exact same thing to aclient.
So I mean, in theory it reallydoes make sense.
The other issue is that there'sa difference between somebody
just being honest and sayinglike hey, like I don't want to
do that or I'm busy, then lyingand you know doing things that

(36:11):
are hurtful, whether it'sintentional or not, and
certainly you can detach withlove, like you said.
Then the question is, if I haveto detach because that person
isn't meeting their fundamentalrole as, like somebody who's
supposed to be a friend, why amI bothering in the first place?

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Right.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Right, like what's the point?
And I think we all get trappedin this cycle of like

(36:52):
no-transcript can get throughthat and you know, again, the
problem is, I think it's oursociety.
Our society is really creatingthis, this level of detachment.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
When you think about it.
Look at social media.
We live in a culture thatthrives on visibility, whether
it's likes on a post oraccolades at work.
It's easy to tie our worth tohow much we feel seen, respected
and valued, whether it's bysomeone we don't know or by
family and friends.
So we tie a lot of value intohow people see us and how they
treat us.
So if we're feeling diminishedor feeling irrelevant, that

(37:24):
really hits us.
It hits us emotionally,physically.
And feeling irrelevant doesn'tmean that you're invisible.
It just means that you're human.
It's okay to feel that way.
Sometimes it's a reminder tostep back, reframe and reconnect
with what truly matters,whether it's with that person,
and say have that honestconversation of like you know
how you made me feel, how I feelyou don't use the word you.

(37:47):
I feel that this is what'shappening and I would like to
change things.
So what can we do going forward?
So having that honestconversation, I think, really
opens the door to truecommunication and you have value
beyond what's being seen orcelebrated.
You have to embrace that aswell.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Great advice.
It only works, though, if theother person has any sort of
investment, so you can have thatconversation with somebody, but
if it's clear that they'vealready checked out and that
that they just do not have thatsame level of respect, it's a
waste of time to have thatconversation then if you have
that situation, then it may betime to say you know what detach

(38:24):
with love and I send you thebest.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
And I've had to do that with friendships in my life
uh, well-meaning friendshipsbut when you put so much more
into that friendship than whatthat person does and it takes a
while for someone else to seethat and point it out to you
I've had friends who did that tome, who I didn't see it because
I was too close.
But when you have that happen,you have to reevaluate that

(38:48):
friendship or that relationshipand say this is not for me.
This is making me feel a waythat doesn't feel good and I
think it's time that we justpart ways, and sometimes that
has to be the outcome.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Sure, yeah, no, I absolutely agree with that.
Yeah, again, I think this is a,I think this is something that
a lot of people can relate to.
I mean, I don't think we're,you know, like vacuums on this.
I think there are so many peoplewho are probably sitting there
going right saying right nowyeah, I get that, I have people
like that in my life too.
It's true.
Typical immediate response tothat is fine, I'm never going to

(39:20):
do anything nice for anybody,ever again.
Right, that's, that's wherethat.
That's where that goes, ben,they've done that, and people
like you and me that's we canconvince ourselves till we're
blue in the face that we arenever going to help somebody
ever again, but that we're goingto probably go out that same
day and help somebody.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
And I also think that we put.
I think sometimes, as empathicpeople, we put more emphasis on
things that are important to us,we think are important to other
people, and when it's not,we're like we feel slighted
because we are that givingpeople, we are that empathic
people, and when that otherperson doesn't resonate with
what we feel, we feel irrelevant.

(39:58):
And I found that this year too,because of how I am with
everybody.
And then when you don't, it'snot that you're looking to be
reciprocated but remember mybirthday, that would be nice,
you know, because you are mygrandchild Exactly.
You know a happy birthday wouldbe nice, you know, because you
want my grandchild, you know.
You know a happy birthday wouldbe nice.

(40:19):
You don't need to buy me apresent, but just a greeting of
a happy birthday means so muchto me, you know.
So those little things that youput so much stock in.
And when someone else doesn'tdo that, you have to look at the
type of relationship or dynamicit is.
And because people who areempathic feel everything so
deeply, we get quote unquote,butthurt more easily because of
how we are.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
I hate that term because it just minimizes.
I think it just minimizes, likethe reality that people I know
people are shitty sometimes theyare and that they do hurt
people.
You know you bring up.
You bring up another greatexample.
So, for example, when my catpassed away recently the one
that I had for 17 years, as Italked about in a previous
episode I had one person who wasbasically like shoot the cat
and bury in your backyard.
And then I do you want to knowhow many of my friends reached

(41:03):
out to me and see if I was okay,zero.
So I mean it's, it's that stuffthat it's like, but you know I
would be the first person thatif that happened sending a card,
sending flowers, like askingthem how they're doing, like you
know, all of that stuff and Ithink what's more realistic I've
come to the conclusion what'smore realistic than actually?

(41:26):
That's not sure.
One of my friends, patty, didreach out to me.
I forgot about that.
She's actually been very stable.
She's probably one of the onlystable people that I know I can
rely on these days.
What I've come to theconclusion of is that I think
it's so.
Instead of saying like, oh, I'mnever going to do anything nice
for anybody again, because Iknow that that's not realistic,
I'm just going to do more nicethings for strangers.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
You know what?

Speaker 2 (41:49):
That's a really good mentality to have you know I
think I've mentioned this on theother podcast I was donating a
lot of money to Palestinianfamilies and you know people who
are suffering from genocidebecause I know that that's going

(42:09):
to a good place and I don'thave any attachment to whether
or not there's there's.
I don't expect it to bereciprocal, or like I don't
expect that they're going tosend me thank you cards or do
any of that stuff, because I'mdoing it just to be a nice
person and you know I mean, andall those in those other
scenarios, I'm doing it to be anice person too, but there
there's an implied reciprocityto being a friend, right, and if

(42:30):
you can't do that like theother thing, I don't know if
this happens to you.
This is like a chronic thing Ideal with in relationships in
general, where I can spend anentire hour talking to somebody
and I'm not talking about aclient, because obviously that's
why they're there.
I'm talking about like friends,like or family members or
whatever where they don't ask meone question about how I'm

(42:52):
doing and if I try to evenchange the subject to something
about me, it gets redirected asfast as lightning back to them
why do you think that?
is.
I don't know, like I don't knowif it's, I don't know, like I
don't know if it's, um, I don'tknow.
I mean I've it could be,because I think we're just
naturally empathic.
But even when I try to likepoint it out and be like okay,
like you know what, like nowit's time to talk about me, yeah

(43:15):
, it still happens.
It still goes right back tothem, um, the I mean there's a
few people who don't do that.
Obviously in my life my momactually isn't really great.
She never does that.
Like I can probably vent to mymom for like an hour and she'll,
she'll like listen to the wholething, so that's.
I mean, obviously there arepeople out there that do that.
But the amount of few and farbetween yeah.

(43:37):
Where it just seems like it'svery one-sided.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
And I just I'm starting to become more and more
aware of it.
So what do you think?
What do you think it comes from?

Speaker 1 (43:48):
I think it comes from .
Maybe they don't know how torespond to what you're saying or
what you're feeling.
Maybe they feel like they needto fix you or they need to give
the best advice, or maybe theyfeel that in the field of work
that you're in, that you wouldknow more than they would and
maybe they would feel judged bywhat they would tell you.
Maybe, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
I mean even on like a basic level.
So, for example, some you knowsomebody was asking me about my
trip to Italy and but theydidn't actually care about my
trip to Italy, they just wanted.
They just wanted to talk abouttheir own vacation.
So when I started to like evensay like, oh, we went here, it
turned into, hey, I did this,that the other thing and that's
all I heard for the next hourwas about their trip to where

(44:29):
they went.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Do you think it's because that we're so used to
people, people just so used tobeing on on social media that
they it's mostly one sided, mostof the time they don't have to
engage a whole lot, and I thinkin real life they forgot that is
a two way conversation.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
That's entirely possible.
I mean, we are, I think, betterat having conversations in
general and listening to people.
I do think it's still somewhatof an excuse, though I think
people have a fundamentalresponsibility to people they
care about to show some interest.
Exactly, I mean, you can blameat the end of the day, you can
blame anything you want.
You can say it's social media,you can say it's politics, you
can say it's the weather, youcan say it's aliens from Mars.

(45:07):
I don't care what you say, itis.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
You'd probably have a better conversation with aliens
from Mars.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Maybe, but at the end of the day it's like if
somebody is really important toyou, then show that they're
important, because at some pointthey're not going to be there.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
I get that.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
And I can't tell you how many people that I've seen
lose people that they care about, and there's never this regret
of spending too much time withthem, but there's always this oh
, you know, I wish I would havespent more time with them and
like if I were to die tomorrow.
Do not come to my funeral andtalk about like how awesome I
was when you couldn't evenfreaking give me the time of day
, don't even do that.
I don't want you there.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
No, no, I agree with you.
I check in with certain familymembers and check in once or
twice a week see how they'redoing.
Either I call or I send amessage, depending.
You know how they're feeling.
And I have this one friend.
I have many friends that I talkwith on social media, but one
that I talked to on a phone andshe was a colleague when I was

(46:05):
teaching and she just wants tobe your friend and she will do
anything and everything for you.
But sometimes it's overwhelming.
But I love her dearly and shehad left me a message the other
day but I was not feeling welland so I sent her just a quick
email.
I got your message, but I'm notfeeling up to talking right now
.
I'll call you on Saturday, andI did.

(46:26):
We did speak yesterday and Imean, I think all of us have the
ability to be that quoteunquote bad friend sometimes of
not being there for them.
If you have a reason, thenexplain that reason to them.
Like I did, I'm feeling kind ofcrappy today.
I can't talk on the phone, butI will call you on Saturday.
It doesn't take long to send anemail or a text.
She doesn't usually text, so Isent her an email, but it's just

(46:49):
you have to be there.
People are going to be therefor you.
Try to be there for them, andit's not always about being in
their face, about being there,but, just like you said, simple
little things.
How are you today?
How are you doing?
Is there anything I can do foryou?
And it's true.
Is there anything that I can doto make your day better?
Is there anything?

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Which takes zero effort and time.
So that's why, when people arelike oh, I was too busy, really,
you were too busy to text, justto say something, and sometimes
just saying I'll hold space foryou, I'll hold space for you,
we don't need to talk.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
We don't need to talk , we don't need to say anything,
but I will sit here with youwhile you're going through what
you're going through, and I'mjust here to listen.
You know, when someone can justsit there and listen without
giving back feedback, sometimesthat's the best thing, sometimes
that's what we need.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
I think we're a rare breed, Donna, because that
doesn't happen very often itdoesn't at all.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
No, I know it doesn't at all.
No, I know um.
You know, I found out a longtime ago that if you expect
things, you don't expectanything.
You won't be disappointed whichis really true it's very true,
sad, but true.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
But again, it's think of it in terms of a marriage
right like when you, when youmarried your husband yeah, you,
you did not.
You cannot marry somebodywithout expectations no right.
I mean, there's a whole thingbehind you know, like vows it's
implied, and with friends it'sthe same thing there is
expectations, there should beexpectations, because that's
what the role is.
Otherwise you would just be astranger on the street and the

(48:17):
relationship wouldn't be anydifferent.
So I do think, although, likewe said with Buddhism, it's
fundamentally important to saylike okay, like let's not have
expectations, but then you don'treally have a relationship
either, and that's so.
It's either one or the other,and because we're wired for
connection?

Speaker 1 (48:32):
of course we are.
We're wide.
When you, when you have anempathic personality, empathic
nature, we're wired forconnection.
Whether that connection is oneon one, whether it's in person,
whether it's in an email, a textor Zoom video or even on social
media, we're wired forconnection.
And when you don't, when youpost something give an example
you post something on Facebookor social media and no one says

(48:56):
anything, or they don't respondor they just don't even.
And it's not about likes, it'sjust about I'm going through
something right now and, yeah, Imight be going through
something a lot more often thanwhat I should, but just you know
, say hi, I'm thinking of you,or do you need anything?
Or it goes both ways, whetherit's in person or through social
media.
You know I've had people sendme private messages and it

(49:17):
brightens my day knowing thatyou know.
Somebody just said you know I'mhere if you need anything, but
just knowing that you're notalone in what you're going
through is really helpful.
Yeah, so people can be betterpeople.
We all can be better.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
I'm guilty of that myself.
Yeah, I think I'm guilty.
So again, I think we all I amtoo, I mean I think we all have
moments of that where we havelike, where we do get like
overwhelmed by something orthere's like life events going
on.
When it becomes a pattern,though and again I'm talking
more about the lying behaviorsor, yeah, and I think the thing
that I have a hard time with andI would imagine, I mean because
we have we're different typesof empaths, right, so like I

(49:54):
don't know if the same thinghappens with you, but don't lie
to me, because I can smell it amile away, like, yeah, I, you
know, any one of my glides willtell you that it's very rare
they can get anything by me,because I pay attention to
everything.
I pay attention to body language.
I mean, I remember what peoplesaid to me, you know six, seven
months ago, just because I havea really great conversational

(50:17):
memory, not because I'm liketrying to use you know like
store things, but just because Idon't know where my wallet is
half the time.
But I remember the names ofpeople's kids.
I remember the names ofpeople's kids.
I remember the names ofpeople's pets.
I remember the names ofpeople's spouses like people
that are important.
So I remember all of thosedetails and I remember things
very well.
So when people say inconsistentthings to me, it's glaringly

(50:38):
obvious.
For example, if somebody says,well, I'm just really bad at
making plans, but then tells meabout all the plans they just
made in the last two weeks atmaking plans but then tells me
about all the plans they justmade in the last two weeks.
Yes, I'm like, you're a liar,exactly.
And once somebody lies to me,like I said, my level of respect
for them just like tanks, andthen I have to ask myself, okay,
like why are you in my life Ifyou're not like, if you have

(51:00):
that little respect for me?

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Yeah, and I'm guilty of being that quote unquote bad
friend of just for me.
Yeah, and I'm guilty of beingthat quote unquote bad friend of
just.
I'll always answer a text.
I'll always answer the phone ifI can, but I'm not always great
about reaching out and I thinkthat goes with not to make an
excuse, but when you deal withchronic pain and chronic health
issues, there are days that youcan't even talk on the phone.
There are days you can't evenput one foot in front of the

(51:22):
other.
So on the days that I do dowell, I make sure I make those
connections.
You know, I have students whostill reach out to me and I
appreciate that more thananything, because when you, when
you teach and you teach as welland so when you can make an
impact on a student and theyremember what you said and what
you did and they'll reach out toyou years later, it means a lot

(51:44):
, because when we teach, wedon't know, Are we being
relevant?
or will we be relevant in fouryears when you're doing your own
thing and when I have studentsstill reach out to me as a text
or say, how are you doing?
Or, you know, can I do anythingfor you?
Especially, I have one student,Megan.
She's absolutely a peach andshe will just reach out you know
, she sees my post on onFacebook.

(52:05):
Reach out on a text, you know,and we'll check, we'll text for
a while and it's, it's just.
It means so much to me, youknow, and it's those little
connections, little microconnections, that mean so much
and you have to, I think, theconnections that you do have.
You have to really embracethose and really appreciate

(52:26):
those and let them know how muchyou appreciate it.
You know, because not everybodyis going to do that.
You know the ones that don'thave the time.
Then you may need to reevaluatethose friendships yeah, those
what you talked about withstudents.
Those are the best surprisesever when you get when you get
like a letter or you get anemail like five years later and
it's like oh my God, you changedmy whole life.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Those things are so, so, so important, and I love
when people do that, and theyare incredibly meaningful.
They really are.
They're great reminders.
I think the other thing is,though, is that they're
infrequent, right so, andalthough we do care about them,
obviously, when I see them I'mlike super excited, they they're
.
They're not the people at themoment who are the ones that I'm

(53:08):
like okay, this is what I needfrom you right they're just
they're not delivering it right,and that it's tough.
It's tough.
And again, I know I'm not alonein this.
I I guarantee you, everybodylistening to this is probably
like, yeah, no, I get it, I gothrough that too and yeah, so
what do we do to fix that?
I think we have to be.
Sometimes it's okay to be likeyou know what.
Bye.

Speaker 1 (53:29):
Right, sometimes you have to, and just for your own
mental health and for your ownwellbeing, I think you need to
cut those cords of just say youknow what this is.
This is not.
Maybe you know we think aboutrelationships.
We have them for a season or areason.
People come into our lives fora reason or a season.
Some people are not meant to bein our lives forever and some

(53:50):
are the ones that are not meantto be.
They will know when their exitis ready to.
You know, exit, laugh, stay dry.
You know they'll know, andsometimes, sometimes they do
need a little push.
I've had to do that withfriendships over the years
because it was just they.
They were so needy that Ipossibly could not meet their

(54:10):
expectations because I had somuch going on and I had to end
those friendships because it wasonly what could I do for them.
It was always what could you dofor me?
What can you do for me?
What can you give me?
What can you do for me?

Speaker 2 (54:22):
And those are not healthy?
No, they're not.
But again, I feel like morepeople are becoming like that.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
Yes, it's way more than it was before, I think your
radar goes up and it's like Iknow this behavior.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Yeah, I know where it's going.
I talked about that in theepisode we did on narcissism.
I don't think that the rate ofnarcissistic personality
disorder is going up, but Ithink the rate of people who are
just being narcissistic aregoing up.
I mean, you talked about socialmedia and it's all about like,
what do I get?
What do I get me, me, me, me,me.
It's true, and there's just thisfundamental lack of any sort of

(54:54):
regard for people, like whatthey're feeling or how your
actions and I don't mean youdon't, I mean like you guys,
like the population how youractions are going to impact
people.
There there was a study Iforgot where this was and this,
I think, is very powerful wherethey had two groups of people
looking at a product andbasically they told the first

(55:16):
group of people that thefeedback that they gave about
the product was going to beshared with the person who has
created the product and thatthey had to explain it to them.
They told the other group ofpeople that they were not going
to have any interaction with theinventor of that product at all
.
They could give whateverfeedback they wanted to give.
So, of course, when theythought that they weren't going

(55:37):
to have any sort of interactionwith the person, their feedback
was malicious oh wow, it waslike really awful.
And then they basically toldthem at the end of it well, oh

(56:00):
wow, feelings.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, and you can be honest with that person and how
you feel.
But the thing is you need totake that action.
If you just keep it all toyourself and, like you said,
just write it down and knowingI'm not going to give it to them
, doesn't solve anything,because the other person is
still waiting for you to be thatfriend or be where you can meet
them at.
And if you're not going to, youneed to.
You need to let that personknow If they're again, if

(56:22):
they're receptive.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Know right, if they're again, if they're
receptive, because if they'renot receptive, sometimes all you
have to do is just write itdown and like, maybe do
something symbolic, like burn itor bury it or whatever.
I've done that before justknowing that that person, that
person doesn't care because youdon't.
You know we don't have value tothat person anymore no for
whatever reason, no, and that'shard to not personalize it is it
truly is to be like okay, well,I guess I didn't mean as much

(56:44):
to that person as I thought Idid yeah and it's a testament, I
think, to just like whereeverything is going and why it's
important.
So, instead of shutting downand saying that's it, I'm never
gonna like be nice to anybodyanymore, redirecting and saying
like, okay, I'm gonna be nice toother people, yeah, and that's
that and when you could be kindwithout expecting anything back

(57:07):
in return.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
Those are the best things.
On Halloween, when the kidswere trick-or-treating in the
neighborhood, there was thislittle boy that came up and he
asked my husband, do you have awife?
And he said, well, she's lyingdown because she's not feeling.
Well, well, can you give herthis?
And my husband gave it to me.
It was a little card and it hada pen for a little pink ribbon,

(57:28):
pen for breast cancer awareness.
And it said and so she believesshe could.
So she did.
And when I got that I criedlike a baby because it meant so
much.
I didn't know this person but,that day I was going through so
much and just somebody who wasjust being kind, yeah, giving
you something out of thegenerosity of their heart, and

(57:50):
they were giving it out to thewomen in the neighborhood and I
wanted to acknowledge thatbecause and then we I belong to
a local um group for ourneighborhood and I posted a
picture on there and I saidthank you.
You have no idea how much Ineeded to see this today to
validate how I was feeling,because I had a lot of couple

(58:11):
crappy days and seeing this,knowing that somebody reached
out, being kind, who doesn'teven know me, meant so much to
me and what you want to do isyou want to pay that forward.
It gives you the impetus to bethat person for someone else,
and that's what I'm choosing todo with my life is trying to
give back, not because ofrecognition, not because you get

(58:34):
something back, but you mightmake someone smile that day.
So I think if we focus on thosetypes of friendships,
relationships or even peoplethat we meet, I think it'll make
us feel so much better, becauseone we're not expecting
anything out of it and it boostsour serotonin level.
It boosts that feel goodchemicals on our brain because

(58:58):
we know that we were doing itjust of the goodness of our
heart.
And, yes, and you needfriendships in your life that
are lasting.
But just doing things out ofrandom acts of kindness, it will
make you feel so much better ofjust doing that.
You know, just having a niceword for someone or just being
kind when someone's having a badday, you know, I'll even do it

(59:18):
to my kitty.
She's having a bad day, she'sin a crappy mood.
I just tell her I love her more.
You know people places pets andthings have problems too you
know you just have to thinkoutside the box and reach out to
people and just meet them wherethey're at and and do those
random acts of kindness, becauseyou will not know how much you

(59:39):
impact somebody.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Yeah it's very true.
It's very true, so it's verytrue.
So I thank you for sharing thatand I'm curious because this
was such a processing thing forboth of us.
I think, right, like to just bevulnerable and like talk about
the stuff that we're goingthrough.
So I really appreciate it.
I'm hoping that we'll get somefeedback from the people who are

(01:00:01):
listening.
I did get some tumblers made sothat have the logo of the
podcast on them, so if you wouldlike a tumbler, I have
absolutely.
I have a limited supply, notmany for the, for the listeners,
though, so if you want to sendme feedback, you can either do
it on the fan page and on thefeedback on any of the down,

(01:00:24):
like Spotify or like Buzzsprout,there's an option where it says
email.
So you can or send fan mail andit just comes directly to
Buzzsprout, but you can alsoemail me.
So if you email me feedbackabout what you think or if
there's any episodes that youwant to hear about the first
five people who do that, I willsend you a tumblr in the mail,

(01:00:49):
um, with the with the uh logo onit, and then don.
I can certainly send you one ifyou want save them, for the
viewers, for the listeners.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
It's implied I do have extra for guests too.

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
So I can certainly, I can certainly give you one, um.
So yeah, it'd be great.
It would be great to get somefeedback on topics that you want
to hear about.
We do have some guest speakerscoming up in the next month or
so.
We have, I think, two or threelined up.
And, donna, do you want to,because I know you had mentioned
you're going to be startingyour own podcast.
Do you want to plug that?

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
I'm so excited.
I've been wanting to do thisfor a long time and I get so
stuck in the analysis, paralysispart of it, and I'm hoping to
launch it on my birthday, whichis December 5.
And I'm hoping to launch to atleast two episodes and they're
not going to be long.
But I have you know, even ifjust one person listens, I'll be
happy.
But it's something that I feelpassionate about doing.

(01:01:37):
I love writing, I love helpingpeople.
I used to have a privatepractice where I saw clients for
different things and I stillhave so much to give.
I can't work with clients theway that I used to because of my
medical conditions and in the,my medical restrictions that I
have, but I still have a brainand I can still think and I can
still talk and I can still helppeople.
So there's going to be a lot ofyou know little surprises along

(01:02:00):
the way, things that I want totry, including, you know little,
things that I used to do in mypractice.
So we'll see.
But I'm hoping that at leastone person listens and if
someone day can be betterbecause of it, then I know I've
done my job.
So that's what I'm going to bedoing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:14):
Do you have a name for it yet?

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
Yes, it's called Healing Our Kindred Spirits.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
When you release it, let me know and I will put a
link on the page for thispodcast as well.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
I will Thank you.
I'm look, I've been strugglingwith this for a year and I just
have to get out of my own wayand just do it.
I've 134 topic ideas.
It's just I'm stuck on themusic, so I just need to get out
of my own way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Well, now that you something, now that you've put
it out there, maybe that'll belike more motivation to yes, now
that I put it out, there's likea tick, tock, tick, tock your
clock is ticking.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
Just get it done, woman, and I will.
I will get it done and it's.
I want it to be engaging, Iwant it to be fun.
I have a facebook group pagealready, um, that people have
already joined, so that we there, we can put interactive things
on there and for ideas and, ifyou want to, feedback.
So it's really helpful.
But just, you know, I wanted Ihave to do this.

(01:03:11):
It's not doing it for anyreason, except that I feel
passionate about it.
I'm a giving person, as Mattcan tell you, I love to give.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Yes, you do.
We have that in common.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
I just, I just want to help people.
And if I can help peoplethrough what I say, my words, my
actions, then I know that I'mhere for a reason and that's
going to be the last decade orso of my life and I wanted to
have meaning.
So it's all about meaning.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
That's thank you.
That's that's thank you forthat.
I think that's really important.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
It is important.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Thank you, and you certainly have had a meeting in
my life.

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
Same here, same here.

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
We can always make each other laugh and I do want
to get each other, but hey, youknow, and I do want to just
sincerely thank all the peoplewho are listening, because I do.
I have a lot of gratitude andgratefulness for the people who
are consistently listening A lotof you, I don't know.
There are some people whofollow it that I do know.
Thank you sincerely.
It's an honor and a privilegeto know that there are people

(01:04:13):
that are listening, and I doreally want to hear back from
people, so please send me someinformation, because your voices
are important too.
I hope this episode resonatedwith you.
It was again interesting to dothis processing live.
I think it was vulnerable forboth of us.
I think it's the first timeI've done that on this, this
podcast.
Who knows, maybe we'll pickanother topic later on, and I'm

(01:04:35):
sure we will, but I guess,walking away from it.
What I would want people to hear, or what would I think maybe
even I need to hear myself too,is that you know we are, you get
what you settle for right.
So like, if you, if you putyour value at a certain point,
um, and then you accept behaviorfrom people that are
unacceptable, then that thatkind of brings you down.

(01:04:58):
Now the.
Of course the problem with thatis, like I said earlier, the.
The numbers on loneliness showthat loneliness is linked to
lots of health conditions too,right.
So lower life expectancy, heartproblems, all that stuff is to
maybe reevaluate thoserelationships that are not
bringing us joy, like MarieKondo would say, and go out and

(01:05:18):
find which is not always easyfind the relationships and or
new relationships that willbring you that joy.
But again, I know that's easiersaid than done yeah, and can I
add something?

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
of course, of course you can, okay?
Um, if you're listening to thispodcast, I'm not engaging in
activities that require yourcomplete attention.
It's a little exercise as Iwill, a little exercise for you
to think about.
I want you to close your eyesand think of a person whose life
you've touched even in a smallway.
Picture their face, their smileor the gratitude they expressed
.
Hold on to that feeling.

(01:05:53):
It's proof that you matter, andif you have been the one who
perhaps caused someone to feelirrelevant, take a few moments
and send them a message.
Let them know they're on yourmind.
Small connections have a bigimpact, and relevance fades, but
connection endures.
So just remember that Relevancefades, but connection endures.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Thank you, donna, I appreciate that, and everybody.
I hope you have a greatThanksgiving.
If you celebrate Thanksgivingor Friendsgiving or whatever, I
hope you really enjoy it andyou'll be here in Kermis again,
probably in about two weeks.
I'm going to hopefully try toget the show back to a weekly

(01:06:39):
podcast, but that might be alittle bit in the works.
So thank you everybody andDonna, thank you so much for
being back.
Hopefully we'll have you backagain.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Hello everybody and thank you again for listening.
This is just a reminder that nopart of this podcast can be
duplicated or copied withoutwritten consent from either
myself or Wendy.
Thank you again.