Episode Transcript
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Kate (00:10):
I'm going to talk about my
feelings now, please don't
misconstrue my feelings as thespokesperson for my race, right.
And so I think a lot of whitepeople are reluctant to talk
about our feelings of race,because we literally do not want
to offend in any way. And yet wedon't know how not to.
DB Crema (00:35):
This is United States
of Race, personal stories of how
our earliest memories determinea lifetime of relationships.
Each episode features one guestsharing their experiences with
race, listen, without prejudiceto their real, uninhibited
stories, because by sharing whenwe first learned we are all
different, we find the commonthread that shows us how much we
(00:58):
are all the same. I'm your hostDB Crema.
After growing up in the Midwest,Kathryn purposefully sought out
new experiences with race inother countries, only to find
that humans share the samehopes, dreams and fears all
around the world.
(01:19):
What was your first experiencewith race?
Kate (01:22):
Yeah,
I would like to talk about the
first time I ever saw a blackperson.
DB Crema (01:28):
Hmm, um,
Kate (01:30):
Because I grew up in a
very small town in the Midwest
that had, as far as I know, thisblack gentleman was the only
black person in our town formany years. And he drove the bus
for our school. So the veryfirst time I ever saw a black
(01:51):
person in real life was the veryfirst day of school in first
grade, when I got on the bus.
And this very kind man greetedme. And he was a beloved member
of our community, he was alwayssmiling, always full of life,
(02:11):
always kind. Um, and as a child,I remember seeing his light,
like more than seeing his color.
I understand the whole, like,you know, I don't see color, I
do see other people's colors.
But I have always seen people'slights too. So rather than their
color. But yeah, he was justalways so kind and generous and
(02:36):
loving to all the children. Andhe truly did love children. And
I remember as I got older,realizing, you know, because
when you first meet somebody,and even as a young person, your
interaction with the person issort of that one on one
interaction, right? But then asyou expand your knowledge of
(02:58):
social constructs, you start tobegin to notice how other people
treat that person as well.
Right. So as I aged, I began tonotice that not everyone thought
of this man as the shining lightthat I did. And people would
tease him a lot. And we calledhim black Bob, that is what we
(03:24):
called him. His name was Bob,but we called him black Bob to
his face. To his face,
DB Crema (03:30):
As if you needed to
distinguish him from the other
black people.
Kate (03:37):
Right, I guess yeah. And
so, now as an adult, like,
knowing what that must have feltlike in his heart to be referred
to that way, it hurts me that Idid it to him, you know. And
it's, and it's something thatI've had to resolve guilt
around. Because I loved thisman. I thought he was amazing.
(03:59):
And I never did anythingpersonally to the man. I just
feel responsible for my society,you know. And I have carried
guilt around it for years. Soyeah.
DB Crema (04:12):
That's pretty heavy.
Kate (04:14):
Yeah.
DB Crema (04:17):
So how do you think it
is that black Bob ended up in
your small Midwest town as theonly black person?
Kate (04:25):
I don't
know. Actually, to this day,
I have no idea why.
And to my knowledge, you know, Iam seeing him from a child's
brain. So I don't, to myknowledge, he wasn't married. He
was a single man who worked forthe school system. He drove the
(04:45):
bus. He also helped at meals,you know, in the cafeterias. And
he, you know, was an essentialpart of our school. But I think
of him as nothing but that. Youknow how like when your kids
say, does the teacher sleep atschool mom? You know, like, that
(05:06):
is my... I have no knowledge ofthe man as an adult, so...
DB Crema (05:09):
He's a living
breathing human being outside of
school
Kate (05:14):
He magically appeared in
my town to drive my bus and
teach me about the very firstblack person that I ever knew.
DB Crema (05:24):
You talked about how
you started to notice the
behavior of other people and howthey treated Bob,. Did that
change, did that color your viewof him? How do you recall that
affecting your view of thingsand your behavior?
Kate (05:41):
Well, two things. I think
it, you know, you said, did it
color my view of him? Which isan interesting question, but it,
what I immediately thought ofwas how it colored my view of
them, of my friends, of peoplewho I considered to be, you
know, wonderful, amazing humans,treating another human in a way
(06:05):
that I felt was completelywrong. But also, it created this
vulnerability in my eyes of him.
You know, like, I all the suddenrealized, oh, this man has to
deal with these people and theenduring kindness that he had.
(06:26):
I mean, I did not know hissituation. But it seems to me
that if he had wanted to choosean easier path, he could have
easily moved to a differenttown, you know, where he was
more accepted, I guess you couldsay. But it wasn't as if people
didn't accept him. They justalways treated him as the other.
DB Crema (06:48):
Mm hmm. How is it that
as a child, as a young child,
you, seeing people's behavior,made you question them rather
than the person that theywere... Like, you didn't just
kind of join on the bandwagon?
Like, where? Where's that comefrom?
Kate (07:05):
Um,
I think it comes from my soul,
honestly. My soul is very old.
And I just, instinctively in myheart, I knew that that wasn't
the way that we're supposed totreat each other. It's just not,
you know, so.
DB Crema (07:26):
Did you, in your
family, did you guys ever talk
about or have conversationsabout race, as part of your
upbringing or in the household?
Kate (07:33):
Yeah, my father was very
racist. Actually, openly and
overtly racist. And, as a child,he had experienced... My
grandfather, my dad's father,ran a gas station slash car
dealership, right outside of avery large Native American
(07:57):
reservation. And the NativeAmericans would come off of the
reservation, and siphon gas inthe middle of the night, out of
the pumps. So, this is likebefore they had the lock pumps,
right. And so they, in order todo that, you have to suck on the
gasoline. So they would suck outgasoline. And just hearing that
(08:24):
makes me so terribly sad. But tohim, it was... he didn't see it
that way. He only saw it as theywere stealing from his father.
DB Crema (08:34):
Hmm.
Kate (08:36):
And then he was also in
the army during the Korean War.
My father was. There was a verybig separation between white
soldiers and black soldiers. Andthey did not associate with each
other. My father hated blacksoldiers, hated the men that he
served with. And it just blew mymind. Again, and again, every
(09:01):
time he would talk about it, Ijust felt like it was so wrong.
Somehow that was not the way itshould be.
DB Crema (09:11):
That's fascinating.
Especially, because I imaginedwhat you're talking about is
inclusive of when you were veryyoung, and that, you know, most
most people were a product oftheir upbringing. But you felt
and you could see that that waswrong. And you...
Kate (09:22):
Yes! Yeah, I don't recall
a time ever in my life. And he
was my father. I mean, like, youjust assume that, that I may
have at one point, blindlybelieved my father's beliefs,
but I never felt that way. Ever.
So, you know, we're not allproducts, I guess of society.
Thank goodness. Some of us liveon the outskirts, right. And so
(09:48):
what I find interesting now, Ithink of the times that I have
placed myself in Bob's positionin order to experience what it
must have felt like to be him.
Because, I put myself in Panama,I put myself in the Caribbean,
(10:10):
surrounded by people who werenot my color, in places where I
have, at times, been the onlywhite person.
DB Crema (10:20):
So you're talking
about later in life and you
intentionally put yourself insituations where you are the
outsider, you are the other andyou are the only white person.
Like, that's curious.
Kate (10:29):
Yeah, I, you know, I did
intententionally. I mean, when I
signed up for the Peace Corps,and... Peace Corps is probably
my next, you know, real,sustained encounter with black
people. And so joining the PeaceCorps, I knew I would be the
outsider.
DB Crema (10:49):
Hmmhmm.
Kate (10:49):
And I was really looking
forward to it. I really wanted
to experience what it felt liketo enter another person's
culture, and explore what theirworld was like, right? I have
always wanted to explore otherpeople's worlds, I want a varied
(11:13):
perspective of life. I havealways sought that. And then of
course, you know, the reality isthat, you know, they don't
accept you at first. They don'tjust welcome you with open arms.
And then you learn that too,right? And you learn why, you
know, why you don't getaccepted?
DB Crema (11:32):
My first thought is,
isn't that a bit privileged to
say like, Oh, I want tounderstand you and your life by
showing up in Peace Corps andliving in the same village?
Kate (11:42):
100% 100%. Of course, it
was. Yeah, it was total
privilege. I was a naive, littlegirl. You know, who had grown up
with so much privilege. And,yeah, it was very altruistic of
me to imagine that I, you know,would just magically... and I
(12:03):
never had any qualms of like,Oh, I'm going to go in and fix
their problems. You know, Ithink some people who join Peace
Corps are like, well, I will fixthem, I will help them. But I
had no notion of doing that. Ijust wanted the experience. And,
you know, I ended up, I hope,helping them do a couple of
(12:23):
technical things, because we dosome technical things.
DB Crema (12:29):
So you went for with
experience, what did you find?
Kate (12:31):
Um, I found that fear
lives everywhere. You know, I
just, I had an ideal lifescenario in my head, right?
Like, when I joined. And then itwas this whole overcoming the
notion that these people havethis idyllic life, you know.
(12:53):
Like, how wonderful that youlive every day in nature, you
know. Just like the notion that,like, their life was somehow,
like more idyllic than the ratrace of the United States and
all of the baloney that we putourselves through. And they
(13:14):
don't have that, but at the sametime, they don't feel like they
have an ideal life. And that waswhat really struck me. I was
like, wow, you know, they wantedmy life, my terrible debt
ridden, you know, rat race thatI was trying to escape from,
(13:35):
they wanted that. And it was,yeah, that was eye opening for
me. Yeah.
DB Crema (13:42):
And even though you
came from a rural farming part
of America, you must have knownfirsthand the slog that it is to
be in farming, and that it's notsome idyllic, you know, vision
of you know, Instagraminfluencer with flowers in the
hair, frolicking through thefields and a white flowy dress
(14:02):
and like milking the pygmygoats, and, you know, whatever.
Kate (14:07):
Right.
DB Crema (14:07):
You know
that, but yet, you expected
these other communities to havethat and to live that?
Kate (14:14):
I did. Yeah. Which is so
strange. Now that I think about
it. Yeah. Because I should haverealized that you know, all of
life can be seen as a struggleor a gift, right? We are all
different. And we all experienceeverything on a different level.
Because we have this avatarsuit. You know, I picked short,
(14:39):
white, you know, person with acrazy, significant last name, to
grow up in a rural setting. Andsomebody else chose something
else. I will never feel the waythat they do. And the solution
is to be understood, for who youare, and celebrated for who you
(15:00):
are, right?
DB Crema (15:02):
So you mentioned your
significant last name.
Kate (15:05):
Yes.
DB Crema (15:08):
Tell us about that.
Kate (15:09):
So my last name is
Lincoln. I am a descendant of
Abraham Lincoln. You know, hewasn't my grandfather, but he
is, in my very near branches ofmy family tree. My father and my
brother, because they are male,have been named in books about
(15:32):
Lincoln's ancestors. You know,we have books that contain our
family history. Yeah, down totheir names. We are not
included, because I'm a female.
So there's another... there'sanother topic
that we could tackle.
But yes, I am a descendant ofAbraham Lincoln. And it carries
(15:56):
all of the weight of thatspecific name with me. Yeah, but
being a Lincoln, in our societyhas afforded me privileges
beyond just being a whiteperson, I believe. And there's a
certain forgiveness, you know,automatic. If my name is
(16:20):
Lincoln, then I somehow embodythe idyllic scenario of what he
stood for, right? Like, I almostcannot be a racist. I almost
cannot be, you know, ignorantabout things. You know, I'm seen
as being super intelligent, andsuper, you know, fair and well
(16:46):
spoken, etc. So then I...
DB Crema (16:48):
Standing up for
what is right.
Kate (16:50):
Yeah. And I've tried to
live my life that way. And I
think it's, you know, it hashelped me in some ways to try to
live up to my name in that way.
But then, in other ways it'salmost like, it's an expectation
that I obviously didn't ask for,but was given. And then it's an
expectation as well, that I didnot see my father, nor, you
(17:15):
know, other family members ofmine, living up to.
DB Crema (17:21):
Hmm.
Kate (17:22):
So.
DB Crema (17:23):
Hmm. So have you ever
used it kind of as your, this is
probably the worst way to putit, as your get out of jail card
or your trump card?
Kate (17:32):
Oh, I was going to say.
Did you say that word?
DB Crema (17:37):
Right. Right. But,
it's like I can't be... No one
can question my ethics and myworldview, because I'm a
descendant of Lincoln. Have youever felt that or use that, you
know, as your...
Kate (17:50):
Um,
I have felt other people's
assumptions about that.
DB Crema (17:56):
Hmm. Basically, your
last name makes you immune from
offending people.
Kate (18:01):
I don't know if it makes
me immune, because it has also
gone the other way where I'vebeen challenged. So you know,
oh, well, you know, I amexpected to know a lot more
about racism and black history,because my name is Lincoln. I
have been put in to, you know,scenarios where as soon as
(18:23):
someone finds out, my name isLincoln, they start, you know,
challenging my core beliefs, oreven just like asking me
historical things that I'm justlike, I don't know, guy. Like,
so I actually felt like I wasobligated to know so many things
about Abraham Lincoln in orderto answer these questions when I
(18:45):
was challenged, which I thoughtwas unfair, at times.
DB Crema (18:49):
You're not prepared to
speak on behalf of Abraham
Lincoln and the entire Lincolnfamily tree.
Kate (18:54):
Oh, what?!
DB Crema (18:57):
Hogwash. But I mean,
in that sense, speaking on
behalf of the entire Lincolnfamily tree, I mean, there's a
lot of criticism of AbrahamLincoln as well. And not
overlooking the work that he didin abolition, but questioning
the hypocrisy of kind ofcontributing to the very thing
that he was working to abolish.
Kate (19:19):
Or even just doing it as
political positioning, right,
rather than for a trulyaltruistic... Was he truly
altruistic? I mean, are we evergoing to answer that question? I
mean, there's so many sides ofboth sides of that that can be
argued until you know, the day Idie for sure. So, um, you know,
(19:44):
why did circumstances around hisindividual being happen the way
that they happened? I don'tknow. But his soul must have at
some level agreed that it wouldplay this contribution. And I
(20:05):
think whatever you feel aboutLincoln is the way that... is
your truth about him, right?
Like either you think he didthese things as a political, you
know, tactician or you think hedid them for truly altruistic
reasons. And I think they'reboth right, honestly.
DB Crema (20:24):
Mm hmm. That's the
complexity of human beings. How
does it make you feel to be aLincoln?
Kate (20:32):
I feel very proud to be a
Lincoln, actually. I have always
felt very proud to be a Lincolneven though he was an anomaly of
our family. But I have alwaysfelt, yeah, very proud to be his
ancestor.
DB Crema (20:58):
Thanks for listening
to United States of Race. This
podcast was produced by me, DBCrema. Our artwork is designed
by Aly Creative, and ourrecordings are done via
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(21:19):
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(21:41):
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