July 11, 2024 • 52 mins
In this episode, Dr. Shawn Healy of iCivics joins Ellen and Joe for a conversation about what the Founders intent was with Congress and why they designed the legislative process to be deliberately slow. Next, long-time Capitol Hill staffer Mike Johnson joins us to discuss his new book Fixing Congress: Restoring Power to the People where he details out what the current challenges between the political parties and how everyday Americans can demand a better, more effective system. Lastly, for veterans who are interested in starting careers on Capitol Hill, Navy veteran Justin Brown joins us to talk about the mission of Hill Vets.
For more, check us out at www.wetheveterans.us and at https://linktr.ee/vettedconversations
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
There's one problem with that.
(00:02):
You can't get to where you wantto be unless you legislate.
It doesn't happen automatically.
And in order to legislate, youneed two things.
You need collaboration betweenthe two sides, and you need
public trust.
Without public trust, therecan't be governance.
(00:25):
And without governance, there ischaos.
And what does uh lack ofgovernance produce?
Anger.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Welcome back to the Vetted Conversations Podcast,
where we delve into thefoundations, workings, and
current challenges to theAmerican way of self-governance.
SPEAKER_05 (00:41):
In today's confusing world, it's more important than
ever to understand how ourgovernment works and how we, as
citizens, can activelyparticipate in the discussion,
to safeguard our liberties, andcontinue freedom.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Our mission is to ensure you, our listeners, have
the knowledge and insightsneeded to become more informed
and engaged citizens and activemembers of your community.
So let's get into it.
SPEAKER_05 (01:07):
Hello, everybody.
Part of our mission here is tohelp increase our collective
understanding of civics, namelyour rights and perhaps more
importantly, ourresponsibilities to each other
as citizens in a free society.
Based on your feedback fromseason one, we are adding a
short civics discussion to eachepisode in season two to help
better explain how ourgovernment is organized and how
it is designed to work so thatwe can all more effectively
(01:30):
engage with our elected andappointed officials and help
create a more perfect union.
Joining us today is Dr.
Sean Healy, the Civics expertand the senior director for
policy and advocacy at iCivics.
iCivics is our nation's leadingnonprofit civic education
organization whose mission is toensure the practice of democracy
is learned by each newgeneration.
(01:50):
Sean, it's so good to have youback to educate us today.
Here's our question for today'sepisode.
Why did the foundersintentionally make laws hard to
pass and the business ofCongress intentionally slow?
SPEAKER_04 (02:05):
So I I think it it goes back to once again concerns
about the excesses of democracyand that the process of
lawmaking uh should bedeliberate.
I will say that uh the framers Ithink it's fair to say they
didn't account for the rise ofnational parties.
Um they were grappling with thatuh as as the the first Congress
(02:28):
was was constituted.
Uh but but yeah, didn't uhpolitical parties in their uh
modern form uh didn't exist andcertainly didn't account for the
extent to which we're we're sopolarized ideologically, and
that of course has a geographicuh component to it too.
We've been polarized at otherpoints in our history, uh, but
(02:50):
those two phenomena uh make itvery make it even more difficult
uh to achieve compromise uh andand to pass uh legislation.
Uh they also of course didn'tcreate the filibuster, so the
filibuster is a a modern uh oruh more modern than the the uh
uh framers uh suggested.
(03:10):
So it emerged in the 1800s.
Uh the Senate adopted this, anduh it's another obstacle to
legislative productivity.
Um and then specifically uharound amending the
Constitution, uh they they madethat very difficult, of course,
too.
We've only done it 27 times.
(03:31):
Uh 10 of those amendments wereadopted uh basically at the
outset.
So uh constitution is drafted inuh 1787 by 1791.
We have the first 10 amendmentswe call the Bill of Rights.
It's only 17 cents.
Actually, one the last amendmentwe adopted, the 27th, was part
of the original uh proposed Billof Rights and was basically uh
(03:53):
basically one that was kind ofuh many states have considered,
but not enough to formallyratify.
Um so that's kind of anaberration.
Uh we've had no new amendmentsother than that relic since
1971, uh, when 18-year-olds gotthe right to vote.
So it made that process reallydifficult, right?
So two-thirds of both bodieshave to to uh ratify an
(04:13):
amendment and then ultimatelyhas to go to states, uh
three-quarters of states, sothat's 38 states uh would have
to vote to ratify.
So made that process veryarduous.
Uh and in this current context,with relatively strong national
parties, and then uh us beingideologically polarized,
particularly in relationship tothose parties, and once again
(04:35):
tied to the geography of thecountry, makes it very
difficult.
Uh one, almost impossible uh toadopt a constitutional
amendment, but even uh difficultto pass a budget, right, in the
current Congress.
SPEAKER_05 (04:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I and I've I've youknow seen this tension that you
talk about between uh partiesand polarization, all the way
back to like watching themusical Hamilton, where you've
got you know, Hamilton who wantsa strong federal government in a
centralized form, and Jeffersonwho wants a federalized system
where the states hold most ofthe power.
(05:08):
Um and it seemed like there wasa big tension between kind of
like the cities as economicunits, and then you know,
Jefferson who wanted us to be uha land of farmers, right?
You know, so you had this rural,urban kind of divide back then
too.
But um I think your point aboutuh you know what's the right
balance?
Because you know, if we have umif it's too hard to pass laws,
(05:31):
you know, for because the rightincentives aren't in place and
the business of governmentdoesn't get done, if it's too
easy to pass laws, then wereally kind of become subject to
the whims of mob rule.
So you know what what's theright balance and how do we find
it?
SPEAKER_04 (05:46):
Yeah, well I think it's I think it's a a perpetual
debate, right?
And it is uh you you mentionedsome of the issues that uh our
our founders debated about.
I think I think we're we'rehaving many of those same
debates in the in the moderncontext.
What's the right role for thenational government versus
states uh in and localities,right?
(06:07):
Um what are the interests of uhbig cities uh versus uh suburbs
now, and which which wasn'treally probably a thing at the
uh the time of our founding anduh rural areas, we've of course
seen this tremendous shift inpopulation and you know
continued growth of metropolitanareas and uh declining
(06:27):
population in rural areas.
And I think many of ourcontemporary debates uh are tied
to that.
Um so uh I don't I don't knowthere's a right answer per se.
I do feel like uh as we talkabout Congress, it could
certainly function better.
It hasn't passed a Congresshasn't passed a budget through
regular order in a few decades.
Um and uh as we're recordingthis, Congress uh six months
(06:51):
into a fiscal year uh justadopted uh its budget for the
balance of the year.
So I I would suggest that that'suh quite dysfunctional, right?
But part of it is a product ofsuch an aggregate, a very evenly
divided electorate, right?
Where Republicans have this verynarrow majority in the House,
and the Democrats, of course,control the Senate.
(07:13):
So it's divided government um inthese parties that are behaving
more like European parties, sothey're behaving more like
parliamentary government.
Of course, we don't have aparliamentary system, we have a
uh a presidential system.
So uh there are things we couldprobably do to make uh Congress
more functional, and I thinkthat's an important debate to
have because it I would suggestit's been pretty dysfunctional
(07:35):
for the past few decades.
SPEAKER_05 (07:37):
Awesome.
Yeah, and I think a lot ofthat's like how do we
systemically put the rightincentives in place that
promotes things like consensusand compromise and working
towards uh the efficient pass aswell legislation, I guess.
But yeah, no, thank you so muchfor your your thoughtful answer
on that.
Among our three branches ofgovernment, the U.S.
(07:58):
Congress has been increasinglyacrimonious and even
dysfunctional lately.
With exceedingly low publicopinion poll numbers, many
believe that Congress can andshould work better.
Joining us today to discuss thisis Mike Johnson, the co-author
of Fixing Congress, RestoringPower to the People.
Mike, welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
SPEAKER_05 (08:18):
Can you tell us a little bit before we get into
the subject of the book?
Um, how did you come to thiswork?
You've had a long anddistinguished career in
politics.
Can you just kind of tell us alittle bit about um your
background?
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Yeah, well, um uh I came to Washington uh uh back in
the uh early 19, well, actuallylate 1970s, had been an editor
of a newspaper in uh Illinois,and um went to work uh uh with
in the Ford White House, andfrom there went to Congress uh
uh as uh first press secretaryand then chief of staff to uh
(08:54):
House Republican leader BobMichael, um, who um uh he
retired from Congress in 1994,so I'm kind of the ghost of
Congress past, you know.
Uh uh most people don't uhremember Bob.
But at any rate, um I was uhinvolved in a uh and still am
(09:15):
really to a certain degree in anorganization called the
Congressional Institute, whichconducted forums and conferences
for members of Congress andstaff, and our whole mission was
to uh help members of Congressand staff do their jobs better
and to educate uh uh theirconstituents.
In that process, uh uh JerryKlymer uh and I uh co-wrote a
(09:42):
book called Surviving Congress,which is was intended as a
primary uh guide for members ofCongress and staff.
And it it's now in its sixthedition, I believe.
There are something like uh200,000 copies in circulation or
something.
Um maybe that was just 20,000.
(10:05):
I can't remember.
But at any rate, um so uh I Iwas uh when I was still working,
I was in a cab on my way back tomy office, and I love to talk to
cab drivers, and I had talkedabout uh surviving Congress and
and what we did at theInstitute, and he said, excuse
the language, but why in thehell don't you write something
(10:27):
like that for us?
Uh so we know what's going on upthere.
And and I talked to Jerry aboutthat, and we had had a number of
conversations about it, and sowe we set about writing writing
the book, and here we are.
(10:49):
Uh well, I get that question alot, and uh the answer is uh,
you know, uh when people ask youthat question, they expect you
to have a specific view of whoyour audience is and where they
live and how much they make, andand we don't.
Um the fact is that our book isintended for people who are
(11:11):
frustrated with uh uhdysfunctional government and um
and angry with their politiciansand and want to do something
about it.
You know, they're tired of beingshut out, and so that's our
audience, and you really can'tdefine it.
It's young people, particularly,who um are not being educated in
(11:35):
civics in our schools today, um,and older Americans who um just
want something done here.
SPEAKER_05 (11:44):
What are some of the top misconceptions people have
about Congress?
You you busted a couple of book.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
They have a lot of them.
Um we have been watching uhinternet uh social media traffic
for a very long time, and yourun across all of these uh some
idiotic uh perceptions of ofCongress and and members of
Congress that they so manypercent have been in jail and
(12:11):
and um uh uh members can't go tojail, they get they don't have
to pay Social Security, they getextraordinary health care
benefits, they get free housing,they um uh just all kinds of
stuff like that.
And um, you know, we mentionedsome of those in the book, and
(12:32):
they're all wrong.
They're they're just simply uhnot true.
Others are so badly exaggeratedthey um uh they really border on
on uh falsehood.
So it's it's it's pretty uhpervasive and it's not healthy
for the for the Congress.
SPEAKER_05 (12:51):
Absolutely.
Or the or the Republic, I'd I'dadd.
Um there's a lot ofmisinformation out on the
internet, um, especially insocial media.
Uh so media literacy, likeunderstanding like where to go
for good information is is avery important thing.
And going, you know, where to gofor good information about our
(13:12):
our three branches ofgovernment, I think, is
especially important, especiallynow at this point in our
history.
But speaking of history, maybewe ought to go back to the
start.
Like, what was the founder'svision?
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
Excuse me.
Yeah, they um uh uh they werebrilliant men, uh many of them,
and unfortunately they were men,but men ran ran things back
then, um uh missing out on agreat resource.
But they uh understood from theywere most of them were very avid
(13:47):
readers and uh students ofhistory, particularly European
history and and how uhgovernments were created and
what caused them to fail.
Several of them were involved inthe creation of the governments
of the of the colonies at thetime.
And so they were able to applythat knowledge and what they saw
(14:10):
wrong and what they saw right.
And um, when they um closed thewindows and shut the doors in
Philadelphia and wrote theConstitution, they kept that in
mind.
More importantly, theyunderstood that the country was
going to grow, they could seeout west and envision larger
populations and more states andeverything.
(14:32):
So they constructed aconstitution that was very
flexible and pliable and couldbe changed to accommodate modern
times and interpreted to keep upwith modern times.
So um they created aconstitution that could be
amended, and there have been 27amendments um uh to the
(14:55):
constitution, but to show youwhat a marvelous document it is,
there have been 11,000amendments proposed to the
Constitution and only 27adopted.
So uh it has proved to be uh adocument for the ages and a
structure of law for the countryuh for the ages.
SPEAKER_05 (15:18):
But you know, when you think about like when our
country was founded, um the thefounders had a very specific
vision for how you know theywanted to to govern themselves
and what they didn't want.
And you know, I see uh you knowin the declaration, also in the
constitution, uh a rejection ofessentially strongman rule,
(15:40):
which was you know, we we callthem kings, but um, you know,
that was pretty much the youknow, ever since we stopped
living as hunter-gatherers andestablished civilization, I mean
that's pretty much the waythings were run.
So I think you know, maybe umyou know, not enough Americans
understand like how this trulywas an experiment democracy.
And I was wondering if you couldkind of talk about that a little
(16:02):
bit.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
It really is an experiment and it continues to
be an experiment, uh, but it isalso the longest functional
constitution among all of thedemocratic nations.
And the republic, which uh we wecreated uh as an experiment,
it's a representative democracy,but it is a republic in its
(16:27):
structure, is something that hasendured over a very long time.
The founders were smart enoughuh and angry enough at the
British to understand that thepeople really had to have a say
in their governance, which thecolonies were uh denied so much.
(16:49):
So that was kind of the core oftheir thinking.
Let's be free people, let's letpeople do what they want, but
also give them a governmentalumbrella that can make their
lives secure and ensure theirfreedom and uh their pursuit of
happiness, and uh get away fromthis uh conglomeration of
(17:14):
individual states that hadcaused so much confusion in the
areas of trade and finance andtaxes.
And so they they wanted uh astronger federal government.
Well, qualify that.
Some of them wanted uh a strongfederal government, and
(17:35):
fortunately they prevailed.
Patrick Henry and George Masonand others had some real doubts,
particularly Patrick Henry, uh,who didn't even want to
participate in the process.
And so um he was responsible, bythe way, for gerrymandering, but
that's uh that's another story.
Um uh so they uh they had theright formula and they had the
(18:02):
the right attitude.
Unfortunately, of course, whenthey were talking about the
people ruling, they were onlytalking about certain people.
Yeah.
But we have uh that again is thebrilliance of our system.
We have evolved over time andand uh uh accepted uh uh uh and
(18:23):
encouraged a lot of diversityand more people being involved
in uh in the governmentalprocess.
Unfortunately, and this is thecore of the book, civics
education, so many Americanstoday don't have uh the
knowledge and the informationand the access to engage in in
(18:47):
self-rule.
Like you said, uh, you know,about the three branches, only
40% of the American people,according to Annenberg, can name
the three branches ofgovernment, and 17% can't name
one.
So um uh that's an example of ofyou know where our educational
system has come from.
(19:08):
Almost 50% of the Americanpeople couldn't pass the
citizenship test today,according to the surveys.
SPEAKER_05 (19:14):
You you do a great job in your book of talking
about like the the designcharacter of the two different
houses, right, uh, within theCongress.
So the House of Representativeskind of be more the voice of the
people, and then the Senatebeing a much more deliberative
body.
Can you go into that a littlebit more and kind of kind of
tease that out for us and and uhmake us a little bit smarter
about the the original intent ofthe Senate and the House?
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Yeah.
Well, the um, yeah, there was auh the a lot of the founders
believed strongly in uh inpreserving the voice of the
states in um in the conduct ofgovernment.
And there was also this fight inthe constitutional uh convention
(19:58):
about how you balance.
out large states with largepopulations and smaller states,
how do you give them equalrepresentation in this kind of
system?
Because the people of Virginiafelt like they should have more
control because there was moreof them.
And so the smaller states said,look, you're gonna freeze us out
(20:19):
of the process.
You know, it's kind of likethey're trying to do today with
big cities versus rural areas.
SPEAKER_02 (20:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:25):
So the they created uh they ended up with a uh a a
great compromise with the Senategiving the smaller states equal
representation every state getstwo senators and the house then
would be decided the size of thehouse would be decided by the
(20:46):
population of of the state sothis kind of uh uh equalized
what they were doing and it'sit's interesting they founders
considered the house and senateequal branches uh uh uh uh uh of
the congress but um it came tobe and and the media has always
(21:08):
had something to do with thisthe Senate because members were
uh there for six years areseemed to elevated to this this
grandeur uh that House uh uhrepresentatives members don't
enjoy the and they call theSenate the upper body and the
House the lower body the onlyreason for that is that in
(21:30):
Federal Hall when they first metas a Congress the Senate was on
the second floor and the Housewas on the first floor.
And uh but that has created amystique about the two bodies
that um was never reallyintended.
And the uh early on the foundersalso created a system whereby
(21:52):
senators would be appointed bythe state legislatures right not
elected and that was to give thestates more of a uh an exposure
and more authority and uh in theuh influence of of federal
decisions.
SPEAKER_05 (22:10):
Your book's all about fixing Congress um we know
that Congress has got um veryvery low public opinion ratings
um and it seems like people maybe more happy with their elected
officials than they are withCongress as a whole um but I
think 8% was the last publicopinion rating that I saw um you
(22:31):
know military favorable ratingyeah by contrast like the the
military and veteran communityis usually around 78 or 74 78%.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Small business also ranks pretty high um right and
uh and the medical professionalso ranks pretty high typically
um but when we think about likefixing Congress can you tell us
like from your perspectivewhat's wrong well there is
regrettably there's an awful lotwrong uh the uh committee
(23:01):
structure is no longer dependentupon to to create laws and send
them to the floor for the fullCongress consideration that's a
mess jurisdictions are screwedup um the changes that have come
about in the last 50 years in inthis country have just simply
(23:22):
overpowered Congress and made itum uh very very difficult to
pass laws so that's why you getall of these appropriation bills
that are lumped into one the 12appropriation bills haven't been
adopted singularly since uh 1997I believe um when our my good
(23:45):
friend Bob Livingston waschairman of the appropriations
committee he um uh he was thelast to really really get that
done and but beyond that uhcivility has just been ripped
apart and torn to shreds in ouruh public dialogue but more
(24:07):
importantly among politicians uhno better example than uh than
the kind of language that uhthat uh trump uses today too
many members of congress are ateach other's throats don't trust
each other and are unwilling towork together the Republicans uh
(24:31):
in the House um uh in in my timesometimes had a difficult time
dealing with democrats but theydid and democrats were reluctant
to work with Republicans butthey did and now you have a
situation where um Republicansand Democrats a good many of
(24:52):
them will absolutely refuse towork with the opposite party in
getting something done that'sone of the reasons why McCarthy
is uh is not uh speaker anymorenow it's even gone further now
we have a situation whereRepublicans refuse to talk to
(25:12):
Republicans and some Democratsrefuse to talk to Democrats how
can you possibly govern in thatkind of environment where people
are such children that they theyrefuse to talk to their siblings
it is just unconscionable and umbeyond that there is a uh
(25:33):
rigidity in the various caucuseswithin the caucuses in the in
the House and uh Senate and inDemocrats and Republicans.
So you have these extremismsthat uh commit members of
Congress to positions that can'tpossibly become law.
(25:56):
And they know that there is adivision now between those who
come to Congress to govern andto legislate and those who come
to Congress to to preach andalienate.
So that has has created anenvironment as as well that's
(26:16):
just impossible to deal with onevery important thing has changed
that politics the conduct ofpolitics it's basically a
decision making process wasconducted on a professional
level on a business like leveltoday it is conducted on a
(26:36):
personal level and um whenpeople don't like each other the
politics gets personal and theengaging in that in those kinds
of personalities and that kindof behavior just simply does not
work.
One one other point when youlook at the extremes on on both
(27:00):
sides you think you know wellthey're standing up for for what
they believe in and what theythink the country ought to be
there's one problem with thatyou can't get to where you want
to be unless you legislate itdoesn't happen automatically and
in order to legislate you needtwo things you need
(27:24):
collaboration between the twosides and you need public trust.
Without public trust there can'tbe government governance and
without governance there ischaos and what does uh lack of
governance produce anger whatwhat do you think might be
incentivizing this bad behavior?
(27:46):
Yep it's it's all of the aboveum uh you can you can trace it
back to the back to Bob's timethe 1970s and 1980s there was uh
the Tea Party movement which thepress and everybody just
dismissed as a bunch of wackosum turned out to be a very valid
(28:12):
uh uh structured movement um uhthat uh that uh demonstrated the
frustration of so many peoplethat were right of center that
didn't feel like um uh thegovernment was going in the
right direction and so uh uharound the time that that Newt
(28:33):
Gingrich was running for officeuh for Congress from Georgia he
he lost three times actuallybefore he won um that
frustration was was growing andum House Speaker Jim Wright was
responsible for a lot of thattoo he was a uh dictatorial type
(28:55):
of speaker who didn't want tocooperate with the Republican
side and that really frustratedpeople so much more that when
Newt came along he knew exactlyhow to capitalize on on those
feelings um and he broughtmembers to a uh a boiling point
(29:18):
where they decided thatsomething more drastic had to be
done to take the majority awayfrom the Democrats and so they
became uh developed harsher uhpolitical strategies and and
they uh intensified uh anddramatized the language and and
(29:41):
how Republicans presentedthemselves so that was really
the start of the movement it wascorrosiveness on on both sides
of the aisle but someone uh andNewt Gingrich was and and
remains really brilliant in alot of ways and he knew he knew
(30:02):
what was needed and he had theuh communicative ability to to
make it happen so over a periodof uh almost two decades he
worked it very hard and itfrustrated the legislative
process because Michael andO'Neill and Reagan and Howard
(30:24):
Baker in the Senate they wereall trying to get legislation
passed.
Newt was trying to uh uh uh disyou know uh destruct the uh the
system to to to make a point soum now uh newt is uh kind of a
(30:45):
you know uh uh a daisy comparedto what they're doing now what
uh uh what the real right wingand the left wing are doing to
to foment uh dissidents andalong the way they forgot what
the hell they were there foryeah um you know it it's it's
(31:06):
become a a situation where thestrategy and the goal is to
upset the the system and theyoffer nothing in return.
When you think about Congresswhat needs to change in order to
do exactly what your book saysof restoring power to the people
well there are the the book isreally about four core uh
(31:33):
changes that that that need tobe made or uh reforms have to be
uh uh uh brought uh brought tofruition one is the civics we
talked about two iscongressional reform which we
talked about the uh uh thebudget process and the
(31:53):
appropriations process justcan't function under the the
system that we have now thethird is outside influences it's
not just the press it's uhlobbying it's uh the political
parties it's not for profitinstitutions that um are were
(32:16):
created and designed toinfluence Congress and promote a
specific uh uh ideology uh andand and finally it's um the the
campaign process the partisanprocess of campaigns the amount
of money uh being spent incampaigns all of those outside
(32:41):
influences take away from theaccess and influence of the
citizens and what we have got todo is correlate uh around
empowering citizens to be ableto exercise their beliefs and
get through to Congress a lotbetter without all of this other
(33:03):
smoke and and noise uh aroundand finally uh the the fourth
pillar is civility we cannotmove forward in Congress unless
these folks communicate witheach other and um realize that
(33:23):
as Hamilton uh AlexanderHamilton said in the in the
Federalist papers that differentpoints of view uh can be
different and still have meritand the open mind of of members
of Congress can bring differentpoints of view together and
(33:47):
create public policy and law andbut you first have to recognize
that that your opponent hasvalid views and that your
opponent is well motivated andit doesn't take too long for a
politician to figure out whethersomeone is rightly motivated or
not.
(34:08):
I mean um that's that's part ofthe job.
So those four things are reallyabsolutely critical in fixing
Congress and it's a it's a bigjob but um if you empower
citizens and change your wholemindset toward what the Congress
is supposed to do and how it uhto do it then you can start
(34:31):
achieving these goals citizenshave to start putting pressure
on the media and on theirrepresentatives to to take a
different approach and andoutlook and just end the uh the
the anger and the hatred and therigidity.
SPEAKER_05 (34:52):
Let me let me give you one last question before you
wrap up because I want to berespectful of your time here.
If if you had a magic wand and Iyou know you could change
anything today relative toCongress what's the most
important thing that would havethe biggest impact what would
you do?
SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
Civility.
Yeah I can't think of anythingmore fundamental and something
that uh reaches the very core ofwho we are and and what the
founders intended the system tobe than the the ability we have
(35:26):
the capability we just don'thave the ability to come
together and reach the center.
The center of our politicalsystem is where the decisions
are made and where the laws aremade.
They are not made on theextremes and like we said
earlier you simply can't getanything done regardless of you
(35:48):
want a big government you want alittle government you want an
oppressive government you want alimited government you have to
legislate to get there and youcan't legislate without talking
and you can't legislate withouttrust and uh and uh
collaboration so I I I thinkthat's at the core and you know
(36:11):
maybe number two would would becivics educating and activating
and engaging the citizenry.
SPEAKER_05 (36:19):
Absolutely no and that's certainly something we're
we're trying to do here andremind people that you can
disagree without beingdisagreeable.
Exactly that no matter whatyou're being told the the
American on the other side ofthe political issue from you who
you vehemently disagree with isnot the enemy.
Our nation's enemies existoutside our borders and that is
(36:39):
still your fellow American and Ithink you know thinking through
how we even talk about otherpeople are we talking about them
in in language that humanizesthem that you know or you know
dehumanizing them which leads toreally bad bad outcomes as we've
seen throughout history so Ithink you know just making a
call to remind you know ourfellow Americans like you know
(37:02):
fellow American like you knowtreat them with respect because
like you never persuade otherpeople from the vantage of your
own values you've got to figureout what they care about and
hook into that and find thecommon ground right so um Mike
this is uh this has a been agreat conversation I've really
enjoyed it the your book is iswell written covers a lot of
(37:22):
congressional history verydigestible you know I think I've
read through it in three days umit got a lot out of it you know
a lot of interesting facts aboutCongress so I I really hope you
sell a bajillion copies of thisthing um you know I think your
aim is noble in like educatingpeople about here's here's what
the intent of Congress is thisis how it's evolved over time
(37:43):
and this is what you Americancitizen needs to do to make it
more responsive to you right anduh uh ultimately return the
power you know the the ultimatecheck on power in this country
is the people right so I thinkuh thank you very much for that
Joe I really appreciate it anduh fixing Congress goes on sale
today so just keep your fingerscrossed awesome well well I wish
(38:06):
I wish you and uh Jerome Clymeryour co-author the very best
thank you thank you very muchJoe it's very good to be with
you and good luck as part ofseason two we want to provide
veterans a way of getting moreinvolved in their communities to
advocate for the issues thatthey care about.
To do this we're featuringveteran organizations that we
(38:27):
think you might be interestedin.
Today's spotlight is on Hillvetsand representing them today is
Justin Brown.
Justin's a U.S.
Navy veteran and founder ofHillvets which is a nonprofit
organization that empowersveterans to serve their country
again this time in governmentJustin's also served as a
subcommittee staff director inthe U.S.
House of representatives he ranfor office himself in the
(38:47):
Virginia's 44th district andalso served as a congressional
liaison officer for theDepartment of Veterans Affairs.
He also leads his own governmentaffairs shop called the Nemitz
Group.
So Justin welcome and where areyou in the country and how are
you doing today?
SPEAKER_03 (39:00):
Hey thanks Joe it's great to be with you good to be
with an old friend and uh I amuh an eight minute walk from the
United States Capitol right nowin my my office just right here
uh haunting the shadow of theCapitol I suppose awesome well
can you share for our audiencelike what is Hillvet?
You know what's the mission yeahso uh the way I see the Hillvets
(39:25):
Foundation is we're really thecommunity for uh veterans,
service members, uh spouses andsurvivors uh in and around
Capitol Hill Washington DC andkind of the the policy space
that you know this city isobviously so focused on uh
awesome and and how do you howdo you help veterans so if say
(39:49):
I'm transit you know off ofactive duty or maybe I'm a
surviving spouse and I want tomake a difference in Washington
how do you help I I would saywe've kind of focused on these
three components Um maybe,maybe, you know, well, three I'd
say.
So, you know, kind of this ideaof networking and community.
Um, and then Hilvet's housebeing um an opportunity for for
(40:13):
you know the men and women weserve outside of this community
to get into this community ifthey wanted to.
Um and then uh I think the thirdcomponent was ended up being our
second program, which wasHilvet's lead, which was focused
on leadership.
And really what that was focusedon was um you know men and women
(40:34):
who who had already made theirway to Washington, DC, and maybe
in most cases were alreadyfairly successful, not fairly,
just maybe you know,mid-mid-level career success,
um, and and helping them A, youknow, build an awesome cohort of
peers, um, but then also alsowith that peer group that
(40:59):
they're building incrediblerelationships with, you know, to
their left and right, um,provide them with um, you know,
an awesome group of alumni whomaybe are ahead of them.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and obviously ifyou were in class one, you
didn't have an alumni, you werethe pioneers, if you will.
But we're now we're now on ourninth cohort.
Um so you know, they theythere's a rich um you know
(41:21):
alumni group there, but thenalso layering in some very
senior leadership for uh youknow our leadership uh
participants to to learn fromand and to start thinking and
articulating about what what'snext.
Um I I believe in um ourmilitary veteran community um uh
(41:45):
incredibly.
You know, I mean I think we'resome of um you know I think we
have you know both um anincredible skill set.
Um I think we um have a rareidentity that puts you know our
nation um before uh partypolitics uh for the most part,
(42:06):
you know, and I would I wouldencourage that, you know, be a
be a former service member orcurrent service member or a
veteran or a spouse or survivorbefore you're a Democrat or
Republican, in my opinion.
Like I think that's that'shealthy.
Um and our country needs thatnow more than ever.
And and um, you know, with withall of that, you know, there, I
(42:30):
I you know what we've reallytried to build here is you know,
how do we help you know men andwomen think about you know
continued service to theirnation and you know to their
their cohort.
And and then we're we're alimited number now.
You know, it's not likepost-World War II where uh you
know we were whatever it is, 40,50 percent of you know the male
(42:52):
population, you know, over thecourse of like 15 years or
something.
Right, right.
We're we're a much smallerpopulation.
So I think we have to thinksmartly about um what it means
to you know uh have both thegift of military service.
I mean, um, you know, I thinkyou know, I hear people you know
(43:16):
insinuate I'm a victim, and youknow, I I don't think so.
I feel very lucky, fortunate.
I you know, as a child, I I youknow dreamt of military service.
Yeah um and you know I I I got Iwas able to do that.
And you know, was it was iteasy?
Like, no.
Um was my service the hardest,you know, that I've seen, like
(43:38):
not even close, you know.
So I mean you can you can gaugethose statements however you
want, but um at the end of theday, I I do believe in continued
service, and I've tried to uhwith the help of so many others
and so many supporters, try tobuild something that you know
our our our our fellow servicemembers can be proud of, as well
(43:59):
as you know, I help our fellowcitizens as well.
SPEAKER_05 (44:02):
For sure.
What I love uh about yourapproach is not only are you
helping network, right?
Because I mean veterans willhelp each other out if they know
who the other veterans are,which is a little bit harder
once you're in civilian clothesthan in uniform, of course.
Uh, but beyond that, you know,by having like multiple cohorts,
you know, you're providing a uha pathfinding function of sorts
(44:25):
where if I am completely new toWashington, I want to serve, but
I don't know how, or I don'treally know how this thing
works, um, I could come toHillbetts and get connected with
people who've got someexperience up there who are
going to kind of help show methe ropes and give me things to
think about and introduce me topeople.
Because, like, if I'm trying towork in a member's office,
typically, as I understand it,and I haven't done this, but you
(44:48):
know, I know that you eitherworked on the campaign typically
that got them to office, ormaybe you are a family member of
a wealthy donor.
Um, but that initial break in towork in a member's office can be
kind of a challenge, especiallyif you're coming from the
military and you haven't haven'thad any past political
experience.
So can you talk to me about thata little bit?
SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
Yeah, uh, and 100 100% you're you're correct.
And um and then also just kindof how and where you come in as
well.
Uh I mean I think the thestandard um you know the
standard pathway to a paidposition on Capitol Hill is um
you know you you generally wentto a uh you know impressive
(45:33):
school, you got good grades, uh,you've been to Europe and you
tried to save whales at leastonce.
Yep.
And um that part's a joke.
But you know, like you know, theif you're on the resume
collecting side of things, Imean it looks it looks pretty
homogeneous.
Uh you know, I've now read ledtwo committees up there, so
(45:54):
yeah, I feel safe in saying thatthe school Fulbright scholar,
blah blah blah, right?
SPEAKER_05 (45:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:59):
Well, and then parents that can float you know
their their their young child umyou know with a place to live
and food.
And uh you know, things havegotten a little better.
Um some laws have passed to youknow give interns you know some
more funding um to um you knowpay their staff at a at a better
(46:21):
level.
So you know, I think those arepositive uh changes, but
nonetheless, there's a very um Ithink one of the things that you
know veterans have struggledwith in trying to make a
transition to the Hill is umunderstanding that Capitol Hill
is a weird place and that theyreally don't value um to the to
(46:45):
the extent that they maybeshould um experience that is not
specifically Capitol Hillexperience.
Right.
And so, you know, it has a verylinear hiring process, which is
you know, first you do anon-paid internship, and then
you're a staff assistant, youknow, making when I got my staff
(47:07):
assistant gig, it was a solid$28,000 a year, which was
peanuts.
It's pretty off.
Yeah, especially in DC, youknow, with the kid.
And and so, you know, and thenyou're a legislative
correspondent, and then you're alegislative assistant, then
you're an LD, then you're achief of staff.
SPEAKER_02 (47:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (47:23):
Um, I mean, that is kind of the common pathway.
And and so what we've tried todo over the years is um not only
break into opportunities, um,the best we could find and help
with, but also um educate uhCapitol Hill in terms of you
know what is the value of hiringveterans, especially on your you
(47:45):
know, VA, DOD, foreign affairstype issue areas, although we
have vets that come up who wantto work in agriculture, which is
fine too.
Um but really you know, I thinkeducate members of Congress,
especially, you know, as to thevalue that veterans bring to the
table.
And we've tried to cut out someof the layers in terms of um,
(48:07):
you know, instead of coming inas an intern, they're coming in
in this fellow, um, you know,and and as a fellow, you know,
they're they're working onpolicy issues uh generally all
you know, generally immediatelyunder the supervision of you
know somebody who knows whatthey're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (48:26):
And then and then you know, ideally we try to get
most of our veterans if theydecide they want to stay on the
hill and they all don't, andthat's okay.
Some decide they'd rather workin the federal government or you
know, for a nonprofit, veteranadvocacy, whatever.
Um, but if they do stay on thehill, that you know, ideally we
get them in at kind of thatlegislative assistant level,
(48:46):
which um you know pretty muchputs them into working on on
policy almost immediately.
SPEAKER_05 (48:52):
Well, um, this has been a great conversation.
I've I've I've definitelylearned a lot um more about like
how the hill operates and how uhhow veterans can get involved.
So like if if I'm out herelistening and I've got an
inclination to um to go work onCapitol Hill or in the federal
government in DC in somecapacity, how can I get more
information on Hillvets?
(49:13):
Like where do I go and who do Italk to?
SPEAKER_03 (49:15):
Yeah, thanks, Joe.
Um well definitely check outhillvets.org.
Um our website has you knowinformation on both um Hillvets
House, which is our fellowshipprogram, as well as Hillvet's
Lead, which is our leadershipprogram that we discussed.
Um we also have um you know ouremail sign-up there.
Um we do a ton of events uhevery year, Joe.
(49:37):
That's that's how you learnabout Hillvets.
And I'd say beyond that, youknow, there are other programs
out there focused on you know,if folks are looking to you know
get involved in congressionalcampaigns, there are their
programs if you're looking tobreak into the federal
government.
Um, you know, there are a lot ofdifferent routes you can take to
(49:58):
continued service.
Um what I like about Hilvetts isis that um you know I do think
congressional experience is ispretty you know second second to
none in terms of if you want towork in the policy or federal
space.
Um and and ideally, you know,you can always come back to it,
(50:19):
but it you know, me beinghonest, it's it's a harder route
to come back to because you knowit doesn't tend to pay as much
as you know the private sector,even even the federal government
usually.
Um and so you know, especiallyif you're on kind of the start
of this you know pathway, ifyou're you know transitioning
out of service or you'refinishing up school or um you
(50:41):
know those or or even retiring.
You know, we have a lot of DODretirees that come into the
program, um, and they do great.
Um and so, you know, and that'snot that's not to you know
pigeonhole anybody that'sthinking about it anyways, it's
just um it tends to work well atthose times for people.
SPEAKER_05 (50:58):
Awesome.
No, I mean I I I know anytimeit's just human psychology, in
order for me to join a newgroup, I gotta see a little bit
of myself there.
And I think it's exactly whaty'all provide, right?
You know, you are an outpost onCapitol Hill and a resource for
veterans uh who want to getinvolved and do the business of
Congress.
And you know, none of thisdemocracy thing happens without
(51:21):
good people working on CapitolHill, especially veterans.
So, Justin, thank you so muchfor speaking with us today.
Uh, if you're interested inmore, go to hillbetts.org and
look up Justin and his team.
And if you're interested,they'll point you in the right
direction.
SPEAKER_00 (51:38):
Thank you so much for listening.
If you found this podcastepisode interesting or useful,
please share it with the peopleyou know.
This episode was co-hosted byJoe Plensler and Ellen
Gustavson.
The audio and video were editedby King's Collab Studios.
This podcast is a production ofWe the Veterans and Military
Families, the 501c3not-for-profit, nonpartisan,
(51:58):
veteran and military spouse-ledorganization focused on
promoting positive and patrioticcivic engagement to strengthen
American freedom and liberty.
Find out more about us at we theveterans.us and follow us on
social media.
SPEAKER_05 (52:12):
Next week, on vetted conversations, Ellen and I speak
to Dr.
Michael Hanlin of the BrookingsInstitution about why it's
important to have civiliancontrol of the military.
We also have an in-depthconversation with the Honorable
Joel Spainberger, a Navy veteranwho leads the selective service,
about why young Americanscontinue to have to register for
a potential draft and whetherwomen should have to do the
(52:32):
same.
And lastly, we talked to MaryBeth Bruggeman, a Marine Corps
veteran who runs the MissionContinues about how veterans can
get involved in theircommunities after military
service.
So stay tuned for more greatconversations.
There's one problem with that.
(00:02):
You can't get to where you wantto be unless you legislate.
It doesn't happen automatically.
And in order to legislate, youneed two things.
You need collaboration betweenthe two sides, and you need
public trust.
Without public trust, therecan't be governance.
(00:25):
And without governance, there ischaos.
And what does uh lack ofgovernance produce?
Anger.
SPEAKER_00 (00:32):
Welcome back to the Vetted Conversations Podcast,
where we delve into thefoundations, workings, and
current challenges to theAmerican way of self-governance.
SPEAKER_05 (00:41):
In today's confusing world, it's more important than
ever to understand how ourgovernment works and how we, as
citizens, can activelyparticipate in the discussion,
to safeguard our liberties, andcontinue freedom.
SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
Our mission is to ensure you, our listeners, have
the knowledge and insightsneeded to become more informed
and engaged citizens and activemembers of your community.
So let's get into it.
SPEAKER_05 (01:07):
Hello, everybody.
Part of our mission here is tohelp increase our collective
understanding of civics, namelyour rights and perhaps more
importantly, ourresponsibilities to each other
as citizens in a free society.
Based on your feedback fromseason one, we are adding a
short civics discussion to eachepisode in season two to help
better explain how ourgovernment is organized and how
it is designed to work so thatwe can all more effectively
(01:30):
engage with our elected andappointed officials and help
create a more perfect union.
Joining us today is Dr.
Sean Healy, the Civics expertand the senior director for
policy and advocacy at iCivics.
iCivics is our nation's leadingnonprofit civic education
organization whose mission is toensure the practice of democracy
is learned by each newgeneration.
(01:50):
Sean, it's so good to have youback to educate us today.
Here's our question for today'sepisode.
Why did the foundersintentionally make laws hard to
pass and the business ofCongress intentionally slow?
SPEAKER_04 (02:05):
So I I think it it goes back to once again concerns
about the excesses of democracyand that the process of
lawmaking uh should bedeliberate.
I will say that uh the framers Ithink it's fair to say they
didn't account for the rise ofnational parties.
Um they were grappling with thatuh as as the the first Congress
(02:28):
was was constituted.
Uh but but yeah, didn't uhpolitical parties in their uh
modern form uh didn't exist andcertainly didn't account for the
extent to which we're we're sopolarized ideologically, and
that of course has a geographicuh component to it too.
We've been polarized at otherpoints in our history, uh, but
(02:50):
those two phenomena uh make itvery make it even more difficult
uh to achieve compromise uh andand to pass uh legislation.
Uh they also of course didn'tcreate the filibuster, so the
filibuster is a a modern uh oruh more modern than the the uh
uh framers uh suggested.
(03:10):
So it emerged in the 1800s.
Uh the Senate adopted this, anduh it's another obstacle to
legislative productivity.
Um and then specifically uharound amending the
Constitution, uh they they madethat very difficult, of course,
too.
We've only done it 27 times.
(03:31):
Uh 10 of those amendments wereadopted uh basically at the
outset.
So uh constitution is drafted inuh 1787 by 1791.
We have the first 10 amendmentswe call the Bill of Rights.
It's only 17 cents.
Actually, one the last amendmentwe adopted, the 27th, was part
of the original uh proposed Billof Rights and was basically uh
(03:53):
basically one that was kind ofuh many states have considered,
but not enough to formallyratify.
Um so that's kind of anaberration.
Uh we've had no new amendmentsother than that relic since
1971, uh, when 18-year-olds gotthe right to vote.
So it made that process reallydifficult, right?
So two-thirds of both bodieshave to to uh ratify an
(04:13):
amendment and then ultimatelyhas to go to states, uh
three-quarters of states, sothat's 38 states uh would have
to vote to ratify.
So made that process veryarduous.
Uh and in this current context,with relatively strong national
parties, and then uh us beingideologically polarized,
particularly in relationship tothose parties, and once again
(04:35):
tied to the geography of thecountry, makes it very
difficult.
Uh one, almost impossible uh toadopt a constitutional
amendment, but even uh difficultto pass a budget, right, in the
current Congress.
SPEAKER_05 (04:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I and I've I've youknow seen this tension that you
talk about between uh partiesand polarization, all the way
back to like watching themusical Hamilton, where you've
got you know, Hamilton who wantsa strong federal government in a
centralized form, and Jeffersonwho wants a federalized system
where the states hold most ofthe power.
(05:08):
Um and it seemed like there wasa big tension between kind of
like the cities as economicunits, and then you know,
Jefferson who wanted us to be uha land of farmers, right?
You know, so you had this rural,urban kind of divide back then
too.
But um I think your point aboutuh you know what's the right
balance?
Because you know, if we have umif it's too hard to pass laws,
(05:31):
you know, for because the rightincentives aren't in place and
the business of governmentdoesn't get done, if it's too
easy to pass laws, then wereally kind of become subject to
the whims of mob rule.
So you know what what's theright balance and how do we find
it?
SPEAKER_04 (05:46):
Yeah, well I think it's I think it's a a perpetual
debate, right?
And it is uh you you mentionedsome of the issues that uh our
our founders debated about.
I think I think we're we'rehaving many of those same
debates in the in the moderncontext.
What's the right role for thenational government versus
states uh in and localities,right?
(06:07):
Um what are the interests of uhbig cities uh versus uh suburbs
now, and which which wasn'treally probably a thing at the
uh the time of our founding anduh rural areas, we've of course
seen this tremendous shift inpopulation and you know
continued growth of metropolitanareas and uh declining
(06:27):
population in rural areas.
And I think many of ourcontemporary debates uh are tied
to that.
Um so uh I don't I don't knowthere's a right answer per se.
I do feel like uh as we talkabout Congress, it could
certainly function better.
It hasn't passed a Congresshasn't passed a budget through
regular order in a few decades.
Um and uh as we're recordingthis, Congress uh six months
(06:51):
into a fiscal year uh justadopted uh its budget for the
balance of the year.
So I I would suggest that that'suh quite dysfunctional, right?
But part of it is a product ofsuch an aggregate, a very evenly
divided electorate, right?
Where Republicans have this verynarrow majority in the House,
and the Democrats, of course,control the Senate.
(07:13):
So it's divided government um inthese parties that are behaving
more like European parties, sothey're behaving more like
parliamentary government.
Of course, we don't have aparliamentary system, we have a
uh a presidential system.
So uh there are things we couldprobably do to make uh Congress
more functional, and I thinkthat's an important debate to
have because it I would suggestit's been pretty dysfunctional
(07:35):
for the past few decades.
SPEAKER_05 (07:37):
Awesome.
Yeah, and I think a lot ofthat's like how do we
systemically put the rightincentives in place that
promotes things like consensusand compromise and working
towards uh the efficient pass aswell legislation, I guess.
But yeah, no, thank you so muchfor your your thoughtful answer
on that.
Among our three branches ofgovernment, the U.S.
(07:58):
Congress has been increasinglyacrimonious and even
dysfunctional lately.
With exceedingly low publicopinion poll numbers, many
believe that Congress can andshould work better.
Joining us today to discuss thisis Mike Johnson, the co-author
of Fixing Congress, RestoringPower to the People.
Mike, welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (08:16):
Thank you.
It's good to be here.
SPEAKER_05 (08:18):
Can you tell us a little bit before we get into
the subject of the book?
Um, how did you come to thiswork?
You've had a long anddistinguished career in
politics.
Can you just kind of tell us alittle bit about um your
background?
SPEAKER_01 (08:30):
Yeah, well, um uh I came to Washington uh uh back in
the uh early 19, well, actuallylate 1970s, had been an editor
of a newspaper in uh Illinois,and um went to work uh uh with
in the Ford White House, andfrom there went to Congress uh
uh as uh first press secretaryand then chief of staff to uh
(08:54):
House Republican leader BobMichael, um, who um uh he
retired from Congress in 1994,so I'm kind of the ghost of
Congress past, you know.
Uh uh most people don't uhremember Bob.
But at any rate, um I was uhinvolved in a uh and still am
(09:15):
really to a certain degree in anorganization called the
Congressional Institute, whichconducted forums and conferences
for members of Congress andstaff, and our whole mission was
to uh help members of Congressand staff do their jobs better
and to educate uh uh theirconstituents.
In that process, uh uh JerryKlymer uh and I uh co-wrote a
(09:42):
book called Surviving Congress,which is was intended as a
primary uh guide for members ofCongress and staff.
And it it's now in its sixthedition, I believe.
There are something like uh200,000 copies in circulation or
something.
Um maybe that was just 20,000.
(10:05):
I can't remember.
But at any rate, um so uh I Iwas uh when I was still working,
I was in a cab on my way back tomy office, and I love to talk to
cab drivers, and I had talkedabout uh surviving Congress and
and what we did at theInstitute, and he said, excuse
the language, but why in thehell don't you write something
(10:27):
like that for us?
Uh so we know what's going on upthere.
And and I talked to Jerry aboutthat, and we had had a number of
conversations about it, and sowe we set about writing writing
the book, and here we are.
(10:49):
Uh well, I get that question alot, and uh the answer is uh,
you know, uh when people ask youthat question, they expect you
to have a specific view of whoyour audience is and where they
live and how much they make, andand we don't.
Um the fact is that our book isintended for people who are
(11:11):
frustrated with uh uhdysfunctional government and um
and angry with their politiciansand and want to do something
about it.
You know, they're tired of beingshut out, and so that's our
audience, and you really can'tdefine it.
It's young people, particularly,who um are not being educated in
(11:35):
civics in our schools today, um,and older Americans who um just
want something done here.
SPEAKER_05 (11:44):
What are some of the top misconceptions people have
about Congress?
You you busted a couple of book.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
They have a lot of them.
Um we have been watching uhinternet uh social media traffic
for a very long time, and yourun across all of these uh some
idiotic uh perceptions of ofCongress and and members of
Congress that they so manypercent have been in jail and
(12:11):
and um uh uh members can't go tojail, they get they don't have
to pay Social Security, they getextraordinary health care
benefits, they get free housing,they um uh just all kinds of
stuff like that.
And um, you know, we mentionedsome of those in the book, and
(12:32):
they're all wrong.
They're they're just simply uhnot true.
Others are so badly exaggeratedthey um uh they really border on
on uh falsehood.
So it's it's it's pretty uhpervasive and it's not healthy
for the for the Congress.
SPEAKER_05 (12:51):
Absolutely.
Or the or the Republic, I'd I'dadd.
Um there's a lot ofmisinformation out on the
internet, um, especially insocial media.
Uh so media literacy, likeunderstanding like where to go
for good information is is avery important thing.
And going, you know, where to gofor good information about our
(13:12):
our three branches ofgovernment, I think, is
especially important, especiallynow at this point in our
history.
But speaking of history, maybewe ought to go back to the
start.
Like, what was the founder'svision?
SPEAKER_01 (13:24):
Excuse me.
Yeah, they um uh uh they werebrilliant men, uh many of them,
and unfortunately they were men,but men ran ran things back
then, um uh missing out on agreat resource.
But they uh understood from theywere most of them were very avid
(13:47):
readers and uh students ofhistory, particularly European
history and and how uhgovernments were created and
what caused them to fail.
Several of them were involved inthe creation of the governments
of the of the colonies at thetime.
And so they were able to applythat knowledge and what they saw
(14:10):
wrong and what they saw right.
And um, when they um closed thewindows and shut the doors in
Philadelphia and wrote theConstitution, they kept that in
mind.
More importantly, theyunderstood that the country was
going to grow, they could seeout west and envision larger
populations and more states andeverything.
(14:32):
So they constructed aconstitution that was very
flexible and pliable and couldbe changed to accommodate modern
times and interpreted to keep upwith modern times.
So um they created aconstitution that could be
amended, and there have been 27amendments um uh to the
(14:55):
constitution, but to show youwhat a marvelous document it is,
there have been 11,000amendments proposed to the
Constitution and only 27adopted.
So uh it has proved to be uh adocument for the ages and a
structure of law for the countryuh for the ages.
SPEAKER_05 (15:18):
But you know, when you think about like when our
country was founded, um the thefounders had a very specific
vision for how you know theywanted to to govern themselves
and what they didn't want.
And you know, I see uh you knowin the declaration, also in the
constitution, uh a rejection ofessentially strongman rule,
(15:40):
which was you know, we we callthem kings, but um, you know,
that was pretty much the youknow, ever since we stopped
living as hunter-gatherers andestablished civilization, I mean
that's pretty much the waythings were run.
So I think you know, maybe umyou know, not enough Americans
understand like how this trulywas an experiment democracy.
And I was wondering if you couldkind of talk about that a little
(16:02):
bit.
SPEAKER_01 (16:04):
It really is an experiment and it continues to
be an experiment, uh, but it isalso the longest functional
constitution among all of thedemocratic nations.
And the republic, which uh we wecreated uh as an experiment,
it's a representative democracy,but it is a republic in its
(16:27):
structure, is something that hasendured over a very long time.
The founders were smart enoughuh and angry enough at the
British to understand that thepeople really had to have a say
in their governance, which thecolonies were uh denied so much.
(16:49):
So that was kind of the core oftheir thinking.
Let's be free people, let's letpeople do what they want, but
also give them a governmentalumbrella that can make their
lives secure and ensure theirfreedom and uh their pursuit of
happiness, and uh get away fromthis uh conglomeration of
(17:14):
individual states that hadcaused so much confusion in the
areas of trade and finance andtaxes.
And so they they wanted uh astronger federal government.
Well, qualify that.
Some of them wanted uh a strongfederal government, and
(17:35):
fortunately they prevailed.
Patrick Henry and George Masonand others had some real doubts,
particularly Patrick Henry, uh,who didn't even want to
participate in the process.
And so um he was responsible, bythe way, for gerrymandering, but
that's uh that's another story.
Um uh so they uh they had theright formula and they had the
(18:02):
the right attitude.
Unfortunately, of course, whenthey were talking about the
people ruling, they were onlytalking about certain people.
Yeah.
But we have uh that again is thebrilliance of our system.
We have evolved over time andand uh uh accepted uh uh uh and
(18:23):
encouraged a lot of diversityand more people being involved
in uh in the governmentalprocess.
Unfortunately, and this is thecore of the book, civics
education, so many Americanstoday don't have uh the
knowledge and the informationand the access to engage in in
(18:47):
self-rule.
Like you said, uh, you know,about the three branches, only
40% of the American people,according to Annenberg, can name
the three branches ofgovernment, and 17% can't name
one.
So um uh that's an example of ofyou know where our educational
system has come from.
(19:08):
Almost 50% of the Americanpeople couldn't pass the
citizenship test today,according to the surveys.
SPEAKER_05 (19:14):
You you do a great job in your book of talking
about like the the designcharacter of the two different
houses, right, uh, within theCongress.
So the House of Representativeskind of be more the voice of the
people, and then the Senatebeing a much more deliberative
body.
Can you go into that a littlebit more and kind of kind of
tease that out for us and and uhmake us a little bit smarter
about the the original intent ofthe Senate and the House?
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Yeah.
Well, the um, yeah, there was auh the a lot of the founders
believed strongly in uh inpreserving the voice of the
states in um in the conduct ofgovernment.
And there was also this fight inthe constitutional uh convention
(19:58):
about how you balance.
out large states with largepopulations and smaller states,
how do you give them equalrepresentation in this kind of
system?
Because the people of Virginiafelt like they should have more
control because there was moreof them.
And so the smaller states said,look, you're gonna freeze us out
(20:19):
of the process.
You know, it's kind of likethey're trying to do today with
big cities versus rural areas.
SPEAKER_02 (20:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (20:25):
So the they created uh they ended up with a uh a a
great compromise with the Senategiving the smaller states equal
representation every state getstwo senators and the house then
would be decided the size of thehouse would be decided by the
(20:46):
population of of the state sothis kind of uh uh equalized
what they were doing and it'sit's interesting they founders
considered the house and senateequal branches uh uh uh uh uh of
the congress but um it came tobe and and the media has always
(21:08):
had something to do with thisthe Senate because members were
uh there for six years areseemed to elevated to this this
grandeur uh that House uh uhrepresentatives members don't
enjoy the and they call theSenate the upper body and the
House the lower body the onlyreason for that is that in
(21:30):
Federal Hall when they first metas a Congress the Senate was on
the second floor and the Housewas on the first floor.
And uh but that has created amystique about the two bodies
that um was never reallyintended.
And the uh early on the foundersalso created a system whereby
(21:52):
senators would be appointed bythe state legislatures right not
elected and that was to give thestates more of a uh an exposure
and more authority and uh in theuh influence of of federal
decisions.
SPEAKER_05 (22:10):
Your book's all about fixing Congress um we know
that Congress has got um veryvery low public opinion ratings
um and it seems like people maybe more happy with their elected
officials than they are withCongress as a whole um but I
think 8% was the last publicopinion rating that I saw um you
(22:31):
know military favorable ratingyeah by contrast like the the
military and veteran communityis usually around 78 or 74 78%.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Small business also ranks pretty high um right and
uh and the medical professionalso ranks pretty high typically
um but when we think about likefixing Congress can you tell us
like from your perspectivewhat's wrong well there is
regrettably there's an awful lotwrong uh the uh committee
(23:01):
structure is no longer dependentupon to to create laws and send
them to the floor for the fullCongress consideration that's a
mess jurisdictions are screwedup um the changes that have come
about in the last 50 years in inthis country have just simply
(23:22):
overpowered Congress and made itum uh very very difficult to
pass laws so that's why you getall of these appropriation bills
that are lumped into one the 12appropriation bills haven't been
adopted singularly since uh 1997I believe um when our my good
(23:45):
friend Bob Livingston waschairman of the appropriations
committee he um uh he was thelast to really really get that
done and but beyond that uhcivility has just been ripped
apart and torn to shreds in ouruh public dialogue but more
(24:07):
importantly among politicians uhno better example than uh than
the kind of language that uhthat uh trump uses today too
many members of congress are ateach other's throats don't trust
each other and are unwilling towork together the Republicans uh
(24:31):
in the House um uh in in my timesometimes had a difficult time
dealing with democrats but theydid and democrats were reluctant
to work with Republicans butthey did and now you have a
situation where um Republicansand Democrats a good many of
(24:52):
them will absolutely refuse towork with the opposite party in
getting something done that'sone of the reasons why McCarthy
is uh is not uh speaker anymorenow it's even gone further now
we have a situation whereRepublicans refuse to talk to
(25:12):
Republicans and some Democratsrefuse to talk to Democrats how
can you possibly govern in thatkind of environment where people
are such children that they theyrefuse to talk to their siblings
it is just unconscionable and umbeyond that there is a uh
(25:33):
rigidity in the various caucuseswithin the caucuses in the in
the House and uh Senate and inDemocrats and Republicans.
So you have these extremismsthat uh commit members of
Congress to positions that can'tpossibly become law.
(25:56):
And they know that there is adivision now between those who
come to Congress to govern andto legislate and those who come
to Congress to to preach andalienate.
So that has has created anenvironment as as well that's
(26:16):
just impossible to deal with onevery important thing has changed
that politics the conduct ofpolitics it's basically a
decision making process wasconducted on a professional
level on a business like leveltoday it is conducted on a
(26:36):
personal level and um whenpeople don't like each other the
politics gets personal and theengaging in that in those kinds
of personalities and that kindof behavior just simply does not
work.
One one other point when youlook at the extremes on on both
(27:00):
sides you think you know wellthey're standing up for for what
they believe in and what theythink the country ought to be
there's one problem with thatyou can't get to where you want
to be unless you legislate itdoesn't happen automatically and
in order to legislate you needtwo things you need
(27:24):
collaboration between the twosides and you need public trust.
Without public trust there can'tbe government governance and
without governance there ischaos and what does uh lack of
governance produce anger whatwhat do you think might be
incentivizing this bad behavior?
(27:46):
Yep it's it's all of the aboveum uh you can you can trace it
back to the back to Bob's timethe 1970s and 1980s there was uh
the Tea Party movement which thepress and everybody just
dismissed as a bunch of wackosum turned out to be a very valid
(28:12):
uh uh structured movement um uhthat uh that uh demonstrated the
frustration of so many peoplethat were right of center that
didn't feel like um uh thegovernment was going in the
right direction and so uh uharound the time that that Newt
(28:33):
Gingrich was running for officeuh for Congress from Georgia he
he lost three times actuallybefore he won um that
frustration was was growing andum House Speaker Jim Wright was
responsible for a lot of thattoo he was a uh dictatorial type
(28:55):
of speaker who didn't want tocooperate with the Republican
side and that really frustratedpeople so much more that when
Newt came along he knew exactlyhow to capitalize on on those
feelings um and he broughtmembers to a uh a boiling point
(29:18):
where they decided thatsomething more drastic had to be
done to take the majority awayfrom the Democrats and so they
became uh developed harsher uhpolitical strategies and and
they uh intensified uh anddramatized the language and and
(29:41):
how Republicans presentedthemselves so that was really
the start of the movement it wascorrosiveness on on both sides
of the aisle but someone uh andNewt Gingrich was and and
remains really brilliant in alot of ways and he knew he knew
(30:02):
what was needed and he had theuh communicative ability to to
make it happen so over a periodof uh almost two decades he
worked it very hard and itfrustrated the legislative
process because Michael andO'Neill and Reagan and Howard
(30:24):
Baker in the Senate they wereall trying to get legislation
passed.
Newt was trying to uh uh uh disyou know uh destruct the uh the
system to to to make a point soum now uh newt is uh kind of a
(30:45):
you know uh uh a daisy comparedto what they're doing now what
uh uh what the real right wingand the left wing are doing to
to foment uh dissidents andalong the way they forgot what
the hell they were there foryeah um you know it it's it's
(31:06):
become a a situation where thestrategy and the goal is to
upset the the system and theyoffer nothing in return.
When you think about Congresswhat needs to change in order to
do exactly what your book saysof restoring power to the people
well there are the the book isreally about four core uh
(31:33):
changes that that that need tobe made or uh reforms have to be
uh uh uh brought uh brought tofruition one is the civics we
talked about two iscongressional reform which we
talked about the uh uh thebudget process and the
(31:53):
appropriations process justcan't function under the the
system that we have now thethird is outside influences it's
not just the press it's uhlobbying it's uh the political
parties it's not for profitinstitutions that um are were
(32:16):
created and designed toinfluence Congress and promote a
specific uh uh ideology uh andand and finally it's um the the
campaign process the partisanprocess of campaigns the amount
of money uh being spent incampaigns all of those outside
(32:41):
influences take away from theaccess and influence of the
citizens and what we have got todo is correlate uh around
empowering citizens to be ableto exercise their beliefs and
get through to Congress a lotbetter without all of this other
(33:03):
smoke and and noise uh aroundand finally uh the the fourth
pillar is civility we cannotmove forward in Congress unless
these folks communicate witheach other and um realize that
(33:23):
as Hamilton uh AlexanderHamilton said in the in the
Federalist papers that differentpoints of view uh can be
different and still have meritand the open mind of of members
of Congress can bring differentpoints of view together and
(33:47):
create public policy and law andbut you first have to recognize
that that your opponent hasvalid views and that your
opponent is well motivated andit doesn't take too long for a
politician to figure out whethersomeone is rightly motivated or
not.
(34:08):
I mean um that's that's part ofthe job.
So those four things are reallyabsolutely critical in fixing
Congress and it's a it's a bigjob but um if you empower
citizens and change your wholemindset toward what the Congress
is supposed to do and how it uhto do it then you can start
(34:31):
achieving these goals citizenshave to start putting pressure
on the media and on theirrepresentatives to to take a
different approach and andoutlook and just end the uh the
the anger and the hatred and therigidity.
SPEAKER_05 (34:52):
Let me let me give you one last question before you
wrap up because I want to berespectful of your time here.
If if you had a magic wand and Iyou know you could change
anything today relative toCongress what's the most
important thing that would havethe biggest impact what would
you do?
SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
Civility.
Yeah I can't think of anythingmore fundamental and something
that uh reaches the very core ofwho we are and and what the
founders intended the system tobe than the the ability we have
(35:26):
the capability we just don'thave the ability to come
together and reach the center.
The center of our politicalsystem is where the decisions
are made and where the laws aremade.
They are not made on theextremes and like we said
earlier you simply can't getanything done regardless of you
(35:48):
want a big government you want alittle government you want an
oppressive government you want alimited government you have to
legislate to get there and youcan't legislate without talking
and you can't legislate withouttrust and uh and uh
collaboration so I I I thinkthat's at the core and you know
(36:11):
maybe number two would would becivics educating and activating
and engaging the citizenry.
SPEAKER_05 (36:19):
Absolutely no and that's certainly something we're
we're trying to do here andremind people that you can
disagree without beingdisagreeable.
Exactly that no matter whatyou're being told the the
American on the other side ofthe political issue from you who
you vehemently disagree with isnot the enemy.
Our nation's enemies existoutside our borders and that is
(36:39):
still your fellow American and Ithink you know thinking through
how we even talk about otherpeople are we talking about them
in in language that humanizesthem that you know or you know
dehumanizing them which leads toreally bad bad outcomes as we've
seen throughout history so Ithink you know just making a
call to remind you know ourfellow Americans like you know
(37:02):
fellow American like you knowtreat them with respect because
like you never persuade otherpeople from the vantage of your
own values you've got to figureout what they care about and
hook into that and find thecommon ground right so um Mike
this is uh this has a been agreat conversation I've really
enjoyed it the your book is iswell written covers a lot of
(37:22):
congressional history verydigestible you know I think I've
read through it in three days umit got a lot out of it you know
a lot of interesting facts aboutCongress so I I really hope you
sell a bajillion copies of thisthing um you know I think your
aim is noble in like educatingpeople about here's here's what
the intent of Congress is thisis how it's evolved over time
(37:43):
and this is what you Americancitizen needs to do to make it
more responsive to you right anduh uh ultimately return the
power you know the the ultimatecheck on power in this country
is the people right so I thinkuh thank you very much for that
Joe I really appreciate it anduh fixing Congress goes on sale
today so just keep your fingerscrossed awesome well well I wish
(38:06):
I wish you and uh Jerome Clymeryour co-author the very best
thank you thank you very muchJoe it's very good to be with
you and good luck as part ofseason two we want to provide
veterans a way of getting moreinvolved in their communities to
advocate for the issues thatthey care about.
To do this we're featuringveteran organizations that we
(38:27):
think you might be interestedin.
Today's spotlight is on Hillvetsand representing them today is
Justin Brown.
Justin's a U.S.
Navy veteran and founder ofHillvets which is a nonprofit
organization that empowersveterans to serve their country
again this time in governmentJustin's also served as a
subcommittee staff director inthe U.S.
House of representatives he ranfor office himself in the
(38:47):
Virginia's 44th district andalso served as a congressional
liaison officer for theDepartment of Veterans Affairs.
He also leads his own governmentaffairs shop called the Nemitz
Group.
So Justin welcome and where areyou in the country and how are
you doing today?
SPEAKER_03 (39:00):
Hey thanks Joe it's great to be with you good to be
with an old friend and uh I amuh an eight minute walk from the
United States Capitol right nowin my my office just right here
uh haunting the shadow of theCapitol I suppose awesome well
can you share for our audiencelike what is Hillvet?
You know what's the mission yeahso uh the way I see the Hillvets
(39:25):
Foundation is we're really thecommunity for uh veterans,
service members, uh spouses andsurvivors uh in and around
Capitol Hill Washington DC andkind of the the policy space
that you know this city isobviously so focused on uh
awesome and and how do you howdo you help veterans so if say
(39:49):
I'm transit you know off ofactive duty or maybe I'm a
surviving spouse and I want tomake a difference in Washington
how do you help I I would saywe've kind of focused on these
three components Um maybe,maybe, you know, well, three I'd
say.
So, you know, kind of this ideaof networking and community.
Um, and then Hilvet's housebeing um an opportunity for for
(40:13):
you know the men and women weserve outside of this community
to get into this community ifthey wanted to.
Um and then uh I think the thirdcomponent was ended up being our
second program, which wasHilvet's lead, which was focused
on leadership.
And really what that was focusedon was um you know men and women
(40:34):
who who had already made theirway to Washington, DC, and maybe
in most cases were alreadyfairly successful, not fairly,
just maybe you know,mid-mid-level career success,
um, and and helping them A, youknow, build an awesome cohort of
peers, um, but then also alsowith that peer group that
(40:59):
they're building incrediblerelationships with, you know, to
their left and right, um,provide them with um, you know,
an awesome group of alumni whomaybe are ahead of them.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and obviously ifyou were in class one, you
didn't have an alumni, you werethe pioneers, if you will.
But we're now we're now on ourninth cohort.
Um so you know, they theythere's a rich um you know
(41:21):
alumni group there, but thenalso layering in some very
senior leadership for uh youknow our leadership uh
participants to to learn fromand and to start thinking and
articulating about what what'snext.
Um I I believe in um ourmilitary veteran community um uh
(41:45):
incredibly.
You know, I mean I think we'resome of um you know I think we
have you know both um anincredible skill set.
Um I think we um have a rareidentity that puts you know our
nation um before uh partypolitics uh for the most part,
(42:06):
you know, and I would I wouldencourage that, you know, be a
be a former service member orcurrent service member or a
veteran or a spouse or survivorbefore you're a Democrat or
Republican, in my opinion.
Like I think that's that'shealthy.
Um and our country needs thatnow more than ever.
And and um, you know, with withall of that, you know, there, I
(42:30):
I you know what we've reallytried to build here is you know,
how do we help you know men andwomen think about you know
continued service to theirnation and you know to their
their cohort.
And and then we're we're alimited number now.
You know, it's not likepost-World War II where uh you
know we were whatever it is, 40,50 percent of you know the male
(42:52):
population, you know, over thecourse of like 15 years or
something.
Right, right.
We're we're a much smallerpopulation.
So I think we have to thinksmartly about um what it means
to you know uh have both thegift of military service.
I mean, um, you know, I thinkyou know, I hear people you know
(43:16):
insinuate I'm a victim, and youknow, I I don't think so.
I feel very lucky, fortunate.
I you know, as a child, I I youknow dreamt of military service.
Yeah um and you know I I I got Iwas able to do that.
And you know, was it was iteasy?
Like, no.
Um was my service the hardest,you know, that I've seen, like
(43:38):
not even close, you know.
So I mean you can you can gaugethose statements however you
want, but um at the end of theday, I I do believe in continued
service, and I've tried to uhwith the help of so many others
and so many supporters, try tobuild something that you know
our our our our fellow servicemembers can be proud of, as well
(43:59):
as you know, I help our fellowcitizens as well.
SPEAKER_05 (44:02):
For sure.
What I love uh about yourapproach is not only are you
helping network, right?
Because I mean veterans willhelp each other out if they know
who the other veterans are,which is a little bit harder
once you're in civilian clothesthan in uniform, of course.
Uh, but beyond that, you know,by having like multiple cohorts,
you know, you're providing a uha pathfinding function of sorts
(44:25):
where if I am completely new toWashington, I want to serve, but
I don't know how, or I don'treally know how this thing
works, um, I could come toHillbetts and get connected with
people who've got someexperience up there who are
going to kind of help show methe ropes and give me things to
think about and introduce me topeople.
Because, like, if I'm trying towork in a member's office,
typically, as I understand it,and I haven't done this, but you
(44:48):
know, I know that you eitherworked on the campaign typically
that got them to office, ormaybe you are a family member of
a wealthy donor.
Um, but that initial break in towork in a member's office can be
kind of a challenge, especiallyif you're coming from the
military and you haven't haven'thad any past political
experience.
So can you talk to me about thata little bit?
SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
Yeah, uh, and 100 100% you're you're correct.
And um and then also just kindof how and where you come in as
well.
Uh I mean I think the thestandard um you know the
standard pathway to a paidposition on Capitol Hill is um
you know you you generally wentto a uh you know impressive
(45:33):
school, you got good grades, uh,you've been to Europe and you
tried to save whales at leastonce.
Yep.
And um that part's a joke.
But you know, like you know, theif you're on the resume
collecting side of things, Imean it looks it looks pretty
homogeneous.
Uh you know, I've now read ledtwo committees up there, so
(45:54):
yeah, I feel safe in saying thatthe school Fulbright scholar,
blah blah blah, right?
SPEAKER_05 (45:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (45:59):
Well, and then parents that can float you know
their their their young child umyou know with a place to live
and food.
And uh you know, things havegotten a little better.
Um some laws have passed to youknow give interns you know some
more funding um to um you knowpay their staff at a at a better
(46:21):
level.
So you know, I think those arepositive uh changes, but
nonetheless, there's a very um Ithink one of the things that you
know veterans have struggledwith in trying to make a
transition to the Hill is umunderstanding that Capitol Hill
is a weird place and that theyreally don't value um to the to
(46:45):
the extent that they maybeshould um experience that is not
specifically Capitol Hillexperience.
Right.
And so, you know, it has a verylinear hiring process, which is
you know, first you do anon-paid internship, and then
you're a staff assistant, youknow, making when I got my staff
(47:07):
assistant gig, it was a solid$28,000 a year, which was
peanuts.
It's pretty off.
Yeah, especially in DC, youknow, with the kid.
And and so, you know, and thenyou're a legislative
correspondent, and then you're alegislative assistant, then
you're an LD, then you're achief of staff.
SPEAKER_02 (47:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (47:23):
Um, I mean, that is kind of the common pathway.
And and so what we've tried todo over the years is um not only
break into opportunities, um,the best we could find and help
with, but also um educate uhCapitol Hill in terms of you
know what is the value of hiringveterans, especially on your you
(47:45):
know, VA, DOD, foreign affairstype issue areas, although we
have vets that come up who wantto work in agriculture, which is
fine too.
Um but really you know, I thinkeducate members of Congress,
especially, you know, as to thevalue that veterans bring to the
table.
And we've tried to cut out someof the layers in terms of um,
(48:07):
you know, instead of coming inas an intern, they're coming in
in this fellow, um, you know,and and as a fellow, you know,
they're they're working onpolicy issues uh generally all
you know, generally immediatelyunder the supervision of you
know somebody who knows whatthey're doing.
SPEAKER_02 (48:25):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (48:26):
And then and then you know, ideally we try to get
most of our veterans if theydecide they want to stay on the
hill and they all don't, andthat's okay.
Some decide they'd rather workin the federal government or you
know, for a nonprofit, veteranadvocacy, whatever.
Um, but if they do stay on thehill, that you know, ideally we
get them in at kind of thatlegislative assistant level,
(48:46):
which um you know pretty muchputs them into working on on
policy almost immediately.
SPEAKER_05 (48:52):
Well, um, this has been a great conversation.
I've I've I've definitelylearned a lot um more about like
how the hill operates and how uhhow veterans can get involved.
So like if if I'm out herelistening and I've got an
inclination to um to go work onCapitol Hill or in the federal
government in DC in somecapacity, how can I get more
information on Hillvets?
(49:13):
Like where do I go and who do Italk to?
SPEAKER_03 (49:15):
Yeah, thanks, Joe.
Um well definitely check outhillvets.org.
Um our website has you knowinformation on both um Hillvets
House, which is our fellowshipprogram, as well as Hillvet's
Lead, which is our leadershipprogram that we discussed.
Um we also have um you know ouremail sign-up there.
Um we do a ton of events uhevery year, Joe.
(49:37):
That's that's how you learnabout Hillvets.
And I'd say beyond that, youknow, there are other programs
out there focused on you know,if folks are looking to you know
get involved in congressionalcampaigns, there are their
programs if you're looking tobreak into the federal
government.
Um, you know, there are a lot ofdifferent routes you can take to
(49:58):
continued service.
Um what I like about Hilvetts isis that um you know I do think
congressional experience is ispretty you know second second to
none in terms of if you want towork in the policy or federal
space.
Um and and ideally, you know,you can always come back to it,
(50:19):
but it you know, me beinghonest, it's it's a harder route
to come back to because you knowit doesn't tend to pay as much
as you know the private sector,even even the federal government
usually.
Um and so you know, especiallyif you're on kind of the start
of this you know pathway, ifyou're you know transitioning
out of service or you'refinishing up school or um you
(50:41):
know those or or even retiring.
You know, we have a lot of DODretirees that come into the
program, um, and they do great.
Um and so, you know, and that'snot that's not to you know
pigeonhole anybody that'sthinking about it anyways, it's
just um it tends to work well atthose times for people.
SPEAKER_05 (50:58):
Awesome.
No, I mean I I I know anytimeit's just human psychology, in
order for me to join a newgroup, I gotta see a little bit
of myself there.
And I think it's exactly whaty'all provide, right?
You know, you are an outpost onCapitol Hill and a resource for
veterans uh who want to getinvolved and do the business of
Congress.
And you know, none of thisdemocracy thing happens without
(51:21):
good people working on CapitolHill, especially veterans.
So, Justin, thank you so muchfor speaking with us today.
Uh, if you're interested inmore, go to hillbetts.org and
look up Justin and his team.
And if you're interested,they'll point you in the right
direction.
SPEAKER_00 (51:38):
Thank you so much for listening.
If you found this podcastepisode interesting or useful,
please share it with the peopleyou know.
This episode was co-hosted byJoe Plensler and Ellen
Gustavson.
The audio and video were editedby King's Collab Studios.
This podcast is a production ofWe the Veterans and Military
Families, the 501c3not-for-profit, nonpartisan,
(51:58):
veteran and military spouse-ledorganization focused on
promoting positive and patrioticcivic engagement to strengthen
American freedom and liberty.
Find out more about us at we theveterans.us and follow us on
social media.
SPEAKER_05 (52:12):
Next week, on vetted conversations, Ellen and I speak
to Dr.
Michael Hanlin of the BrookingsInstitution about why it's
important to have civiliancontrol of the military.
We also have an in-depthconversation with the Honorable
Joel Spainberger, a Navy veteranwho leads the selective service,
about why young Americanscontinue to have to register for
a potential draft and whetherwomen should have to do the
(52:32):
same.
And lastly, we talked to MaryBeth Bruggeman, a Marine Corps
veteran who runs the MissionContinues about how veterans can
get involved in theircommunities after military
service.
So stay tuned for more greatconversations.
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