January 15, 2026 • 51 mins
When love is on the line, panic makes smart people do reckless things. We brought in Dr. Becky Whetstone, a nationally recognized marriage crisis manager, to show how to stop the spiral, make clear choices, and protect your family whether you reconcile or part.
We walk through the moments that matter most: how to tell if change is possible, the difference between treatable issues and entrenched personality patterns, and when to pivot from repair to amicable divorce. Becky shares an approach most therapists never teach—directive, research-backed, and designed for high-stakes decisions.
We also get honest about dating after divorce and the landmines of blended families. Expect practical guidance on trauma triggers, coupling errors that turn every red flag into a false alarm, and why slow, wide-sample dating leads to better partners and better selves. On stepfamilies, Becky offers hard-won insight: start as an ally, let the biological parent lead discipline, and accept that belonging takes years, not weeks. If you’re staring down infidelity, emotional shutdown, or the crossroads between repair and divorce, this conversation gives you a plan.
If this helped, tap follow, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a quick review so more people can find the show. Your support helps us bring more grounded, compassionate guidance to those who need it most.
https://www.marriagecrisismanager.com
Book: "I (Think) I Want Out: What to do When One of You Wants to End Your Marriage"
Go to my website http://www.virago247.net for all things Virago 24/7
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Everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors!
Music by Deli Rowe: "Space to Move"
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Today's conversation is not about sugarcoating
relationships.
It's about saving them wheneverything is on the line.
I'm joined by Dr.
Becky Whetstone, a nationallyrecognized marriage crisis
manager who works with couplesin the most high-stakes moments
in their relationships.
Infidelity, betrayal, emotionalshutdown, and the crossroads
(00:24):
between divorce and repair.
Dr.
Becky is known for her direct,compassionate, and no nonsense
approach to helping couplesrebuild trust and make clear
decisions when emotions arerunning high.
If your relationship feelsfragile, confusing, or on the
brink, this conversationmatters.
(00:45):
Let's get into it.
Hi, I am your host, LeonetteAlley, and you are listening to
Virago24-7.
Virago is Latin for femalewarriors, and 24-7 is for all
day, every day.
Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcastthat brings diverse women
together to talk about life andour experiences in this world,
(01:08):
which are based on self-love,mental health, marriage,
children, friendships, andreally anything that needs to be
talked about.
Here you will find everydaygrowth, everyday feelings, with
everyday warriors.
(01:37):
It's nice to see you again.
Full disclosure.
SPEAKER_04 (01:40):
Thank you for having me on your show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Oh my gosh.
I'm I'm gonna just be open tothe people that are listening.
I have recorded with uh Dr.
Becky before.
We recorded last week, and thereis no evidence of these
recordings because I don't knowwhat I did.
We had a 50-minute conversationthat doesn't exist.
(02:02):
So I appreciate you coming backon.
So, Dr.
Becky Whetstone, you are alicensed marriage and family
therapist.
Uh you call yourself themarriage crisis manager.
You are from Little Rock.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
I am.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
And we established that my husband is also from
Little Rock.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
He asked.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
He wanted me to ask you uh what high school you went
to.
Did you go to high school?
SPEAKER_04 (02:24):
Parkview, Parkview High School.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Parkview, okay, I'll let him know.
Because he went to Hall.
SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
Yeah, and his mom was an English teacher and she
taught at Central.
SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Well, those are the big three.
I mean, other people in LittleRock might argue with me, but
Parkview, Central, and Hall arethe big three.
That's where most of my friendswent.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Okay, wonderful.
Wonderful.
All right.
So she gave us permission tocall her Becky.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So tell us about yourself, howyou got started.
Let's start from the beginning.
SPEAKER_04 (03:00):
Oh, wow.
You know, well, I grew up inArkansas.
You're, you know, in El Dorado,Arkansas, um, which is in South
Arkansas near Louisiana, andit's oil country down there.
And so we I I grew up in a townwhere very early on you realize
there's sort of a caste system,you know, like uh uh there were
(03:21):
the billionaires from the MurphyOil Company, and the Murphy kids
were my age and older.
And so most of me and mysiblings were in school with
them, and they and they went tothe public schools in El Dorado.
So, but everybody always knew,like, you know, if you were a
billionaire Murphy or a or aMurphy cousin or whatever, and
(03:45):
that their kids would bedelivered every day to school in
a limousine, but to theirparents' credit, it was just a
regular station wagon.
Their limousine.
But you're aware of this wealththing, right?
And then there's the um middleclass kids, and then there were
the redneck kids, and then therewere the colored people, the
(04:08):
segregated, the black people inEl Dorado had their own schools
and their own area of town, youknow, it was very bizarre.
And when my parents and I woulddrive out to their area of town,
it would be like going to athird world country.
I remember that.
There were like uh not pavedroads, the houses weren't
(04:32):
painted, they looked like shacksand chanties, and and so I, you
know, I just think that I wasvery sensitive to that as a kid,
you know, and I think that itthat in my DNA was sort of born
this compassion for people thatwere, you know, living lesser
(04:55):
than lives in poverty, or umlike how the black people were
treated in my town, you know,and and um and as luck would
have it, um my school they begana little testing of integration,
and the first black child in myelementary school, we got one
(05:18):
black child, and he was put inmy class.
And his name was Gregory Dykes.
He was such a fun, uh, sweetboy, and I felt very protective
of him at the time.
But it's interesting becauseI've wanted to talk to Gregory
Dykes all these years about whatthat experience was like because
I just can't even imagine.
And because some boys were notvery nice to him.
(05:41):
And um, I looked and looked andlooked for him about every six
months for the last 20 years,and just literally last month I
found him on the internet in anobituary.
It was so sad.
And it, you know, it saidGregory, he lived in Illinois,
but he didn't, he never married,he didn't have kids.
He really was um he lived forhis parents, and um, and it had
(06:06):
a picture of him as a grown-upand everything.
And and but if he'd have been alittle more present on the
internet, you know, than he was,I could have found him and and
talked to him about thatexperience.
But I just think that stuff likethat, you know, formed my
compassion and um kind ofwanting to help people who were
(06:30):
um not pro had no little or noprivilege whatsoever, you know.
Um, and so um, and when Igraduated from high school and
started going to college andstuff, and uh I I started
noticing that my biologicalfamily, you know, that we were
bumping heads and having issues.
(06:51):
And so I started asking myselfthis question am I crazy?
Are they crazy crazy, or are weall crazy?
And so I decided to go totherapy and start figuring this
out.
And that and that and never Ididn't really know anything
about therapy at the time, butthe insights I got there, you
(07:11):
know, were just so mind-blowingto me and and really helped me
improve mentally and emotionallyvery quickly.
And so I suddenly became veryinterested in the counseling
profession and what was possiblethere.
And then a few years later, Imarried my kid's dad, um, having
(07:33):
put my dream of being an advicecolumnist on the back burner for
a variety of reasons.
But I just I think you know,lack of belief that anyone would
ever hire me was a primaryreason.
Um, because I'm a I've alwaysbeen a writer, I've always loved
writing, and I've always lovedreal the idea of relationships
and used to devour advicecolumns.
(07:54):
But here I am being a housewifewith my kids dead.
And when we first met, he wasvery, very loving, like the most
loving, and he's so attractive.
Oh my God.
And and you know, he was justadored me and doted on me, and I
just thought I'm the luckiestperson in the world.
And we got married, and we wentto Australia and New Zealand for
(08:15):
a year or two because of hisjob.
And sometime during the firstsix months of our marriage, he
became emotionally cold anddistant, sort of slamming a door
in my face.
And I started having depressionand panic attacks because I was
(08:35):
like, what the hell?
You know, and you know, this wasum unbelievable that, you know,
I don't know.
I spent the next five yearstrying to get him to come back
and connect with me, but Ifailed.
And that I got to a point whereI just couldn't take it anymore.
He was kind of mean, he wouldsay mean things.
(08:56):
He would always tell me I waswasting my life, and and that
just looking at how I lived mydays made him sick, you know,
because I guess he could seethat there was something in me
that was meant for more.
But at that time, I wanted to dosomething more, but I didn't
know what it was.
But anyway, we went through amarriage crisis.
(09:17):
I got fed up with him.
He came home from work one day.
I said, I think I want toseparate.
Um, and I don't think I don'tknow if I want a divorce or not,
but I I I can't take thisanymore.
And so we entered this thingcalled marriage crisis.
And um, we went to our marriagetherapist, asked uh him what to
(09:39):
do, and he said, Look, if you'renot interested in working on the
marriage, I can't help you.
So he sent us away, and mysoon-to-be ex-husband and I
handled it ourselves, and it wasan absolute disaster for all of
us and our friends and ourfamily, and then we had two
little kids, aged three and sixat the time, who you know paid a
(10:01):
price and still pay a price forall our stupid decisions.
So that didn't sit well with methat the therapist could not
help us with that.
But after, you know, duringthose days, I started going to
all these self-help workshopsand seminars and stuff, kind of
like Tony Robbins stuff, wherethey hit you over the head and
you come out of there going, Ican do anything.
(10:24):
You know?
Yeah.
So I I they they really pumpedme up with confidence and stuff.
So I just made it my business toforce the San Antonio newspaper
to hire me as a feature writer.
And then my goal was to become aa columnist of talking about
relationships.
It took me two years to get thecolumn, and then when I wrote
(10:47):
the column, it was wildlypopular in San Antonio.
People loved it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
So um how did you end up in San Antonio?
SPEAKER_04 (10:57):
Well, um I had been in Little Rock and I was
lamenting, and that's where I'mfrom, that I'd been lamenting
the uh quality of men that I wasmeeting there.
And my sister lived in in SanAntonio, and she said, Look, my
husband works with all thesegood-looking young single men.
(11:19):
Why don't you come down here andhave a fantasy weekend and every
night you'll go out with adifferent man?
And then on the line, we'llleave one night, we'll leave one
night, three at the end, and youcan go on a second date with one
of them if you want to.
So that's what we did.
And so one of the guys she fixedme up with was my kid's dad, who
happened to be her next doorneighbor.
(11:41):
And so she kind of knew himthrough the yard, but he would
come over to their house anddrink wine and stuff, and they
really loved him.
So yeah, so she she fixed us up,and so I moved down there to be
with him.
So, um, so after so I'm I afterI was working with the
newspaper, I was single for fiveyears now, a single mom, and I
(12:06):
remarried a guy uh that had beenone of my dear friends, and we
turned into a romance, and um,and I knew he was a little uh
probably not someone I shouldmarry, but I did marry him um
when he told me that he wasgoing to run for US Congress in
(12:29):
San Antonio, and I knew he wasgonna win.
So, you know, I I had this backthen I had this part of my ego
that loved wild experiences, youknow, like power, prominence,
you know, I just it wasirresistible to me.
So in many ways, I married a manI knew I shouldn't marry to have
(12:52):
that experience up there inWashington, D.C.
And oh, I had the experience,all right.
You know, we were uh marriedfive years, but our divorce took
two years.
Oh wow.
So I went through another dangmarriage crisis, um, and I wrote
a book about that wholeexperience, the five years with
the congressman.
(13:13):
It is an unbelievable story.
And that particular story isavailable on Substack um at the
Congressman's Wife.
And I'm just I I'm right now inthe process of releasing it.
I wrote it 20 years ago, but I'mrewriting it and updating it
with insights from a therapist'spoint of view.
(13:34):
And um, yeah, so it's onSubstack at the Congressman's
Wife.
So um when we got divorced, Ihad just started graduate school
in marriage and family therapy.
And that was that saved mebecause I was extremely
depressed and down over ourdivorce, and I lost my I had to
(13:55):
quit my job.
Uh yeah, I was gonna ask youthat because of being married to
a politician.
And then since I had beenmarried to a politician, he had
a lot of power in the community,so no one wanted to take a
chance on hiring me in a job.
Oh, how you know, they we don'twant to anger the congressman,
you know.
(14:15):
So I started hitting all thesewalls where I couldn't make
anything happen for myself.
And but, you know, like I said,thank God I was in graduate
school and I went to graduateschool for five years and got my
doctorate in marriage and familytherapy.
And when I was there, you know,I was made a point to do a lot
of research on what can be donewhen a couple is in a marriage
(14:38):
crisis.
And I found a bunch of greatresearch, you know.
I was like, why didn't anybodyknow about this?
Why aren't they teaching usabout this in graduate school?
Because in the marriage andfamily therapy classes, they
never even mentioned marriagecrisis or what to do.
It was not a somethingdiscussed.
Now, they each professor wouldalways assign us five or seven
(15:01):
gigantic books to buy, you know,and for their class each
semester.
And a lot of that informationwas tucked in those books, but
no one had time to read allthose books every semester.
So most of us ended up puttingthose books on our shelves as
reference material, you know.
And but years later, like when Iwas doing my research, I'd pull
(15:23):
some of those books down and I'dgo to the library and pull up uh
studies and whatnot.
And there was just so much, somuch research and information on
how are the best ways to havehandle couples in that situation
and how to diagnose yourmarriage to know if you're about
to have a marriage crisis.
(15:45):
So I was kind of like, wow, youknow, um, this is amazing.
I wrote I wrote my dissertationon it, which basically means I
had to read every study and readevery book on that subject that
ever was done.
And I came out of it soknowledgeable about it, and then
I thought, well, I'm kind of anexpert in this now, and I'm
(16:09):
gonna have since no one else ishelping couples in crisis, I'm
gonna have to do it.
So, and I was gonna write a bookabout it to help people, but I
couldn't get anyone to buy mybook back then.
And so I just started trying toattract couples in crisis to my
practice through advertising,and um, they started coming and
(16:31):
I used all the research stuffthat I knew to help them, and I
started tweaking and refiningit.
And so now I've been helpingcouples in crisis for over 25
years, and then finally I wasable to get my book published
last February called I Think IWant Out What to Do When One of
You Wants to End Your Marriage.
(16:52):
So that's what I'm doing now,and I've expanded marriage
crisis management to helping uhwalk people through an amicable
divorce process or a positiveco-parenting uh process.
So I really feel that marriagetherapy has done people wrong by
(17:12):
letting them leave when they saythey want a divorce because
divorce is one of the moststressful experiences a person
can ever go through.
And why would they not stay witha family therapist like us who
can really help smooth the waterand help them not make mistakes
(17:32):
and do the things that willdamage their family the least?
You know, so I'm trying to likecreate something, you know, and
my goal is to put family lawyersout of business.
Um and you know, I've my methodof amicable divorce does not
involve hiring family lawyersand using therapists for most of
(17:55):
it, and then there's other kindsof lawyers you can hire that are
not bloodthirsty, that are morepeaceful oriented.
And so I tell couples how to doit, and um, I just want to start
having a less awful way ofparting ways when you're a
family.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
So you're saying like most therapists only work
with couples when they want tosave their marriage, otherwise
you're just kind of left to yourown devices to the other.
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (18:25):
And now that now, you know, they do tell you in um
graduate school that you can askyour clients if they would like
to transition to divorcetherapy.
But I don't know anyone thatdoes that.
And the and part of the reason Ithink is they don't teach us how
(18:46):
to do divorce therapy.
They just say you can do you cando the divorce therapy, um, but
but that would be something thatyou would have to take a special
interest in and go study in yourown time, you know.
So a lot of my classmates, youknow, aren't even marriage
therapists, even though they'remarriage and family therapists.
It's so interesting that um thatyou know, one of my colleagues
(19:11):
specializes in autism andanother specializes in uh
caretaking of Alzheimer's andParkinson's uh patients.
So just because you're amarriage and family therapy
doesn't really therapist doesn'tnecessarily mean that you know
how to handle couples families,you know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
So what kind of in your in your um practice, um,
what kind of couples do younormally see?
Do you normally deal with peopleboth both sides are rational and
they get it?
Or do you find that one is moredifficult?
And how do you handle those kindof people?
SPEAKER_04 (19:50):
Oh girl.
You know, I had a rough dayyesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
Did you?
SPEAKER_04 (19:57):
Did you yeah, you know, I came up Stairs and yet,
like every my husband laughsbecause sometimes I go, It's
time to retire.
Time to retire.
Um be I I I am ashamed to saythat I'm expensive.
You know, my my my fees areexpensive, but it also has cost
(20:21):
me a fortune to get my PhD inmarriage and family therapy and
to get all the training thatI've had to be able to help
people.
I estimate I've spent$200,000beyond graduate school going to
workshops, studying with some ofthe most uh respected experts in
(20:44):
the world in trauma and healingand um divorce and whatnot, you
know?
And so, and I want to keep doingthat.
I want to keep my training goingand learning more and more and
more and more.
So I'm expensive, and because ofthat, um I attract
(21:09):
high-functioning people.
Okay.
So most of my clients areusually college educated in some
sort of professional type jobs.
Um, and I would say of thatgroup, 90% of them are pretty
stable and reasonable.
And to do what I dosuccessfully, you have to be
(21:31):
stable and reasonable.
And if, you know, most peopleenter the process like a bucking
horse, you know, and I and Irealize there's going to be a
little resistance uh in the end,because I coach people to do
counterintuitive things.
You know, marriage crisismanagement is a completely
(21:52):
different animal than marriagetherapy.
I am in marriage therapy, somemarriage therapists would never
be directive and say, you needto do this, you need to do that.
But marriage crisis managementis all about me coaching them
and being directive and stuff.
So I have to sometimes wrestle afew bears, if you will.
(22:15):
And um I tell you what ends upwearing me out sometimes, and
what what ended up wearing meout yesterday is the people who
I spent, let's say I've spentthree or four sessions with them
already outlining everythingthey need to do, and I send them
emails about it and I send theminstructions, and they're well
(22:37):
informed.
They read my book, they're wellinformed of what they should do,
and they totally disregardeverything I say.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Brianna, that sounds like something your ex would do.
It does, does regard everythingthat the professional absolutely
knows better?
SPEAKER_05 (22:52):
He wouldn't have made it to the third session.
SPEAKER_04 (22:54):
So it's like, you know, if it it's the leaning in
partners, you know, are the onesthat struggle the most.
They're the ones that want tosave the marriage, and then
their spouse, the decider, isleaning out and trying to get
away from them.
And they have to stop pursuitand love bombing and begging and
being pathetic and all thosethings.
(23:14):
Um, and we have to get them bothstabilized and everyone calmed
down before we can do anythingelse.
And the more the leaning inpartner chases love bombs,
bitches, screams, uh, cries,shows, you know, just a basket
case behaviors, it turns thedecider off so badly and and
(23:40):
almost ensures a divorcedecision.
So, but there's just some peoplethat won't stop it.
They just won't stop it.
And and, you know, and sometimesif somebody cannot, will not
change their behavior, you know,uh a therapist is going to start
(24:00):
thinking that they have apersonality disorder because
those people cannot change, theycannot control themselves, they
will not, and they're verycertain of their perspective and
that they know what's best, youknow.
So what I say is not especiallymeaningful to them because you
(24:21):
know they think by doing thisthing over here is gonna get the
person back, even though I toldthem if you do that, they're
probably gonna divorce you.
Yeah.
So so wrestling with thosepeople when they're in sessions
with me and screaming andcarrying on um with a decider in
the room, I just I usually justturn my video off when they do
(24:44):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
You seem like no nonsense.
Like you're like, you eitherwant to be helped or you don't.
SPEAKER_04 (24:52):
Sometimes I turn my video off and run into the other
room and get my referee blackand white striped t-shirt and
put it on and come back on thescreen.
SPEAKER_05 (25:03):
Have there are there ever times where you're like
coaching couples and then you'relike there's there's no way.
Obviously, their end goal is tomake their marriage work and not
proceed with the divorce.
But is there ever times in theback of your mind where like
there's no way this can work?
This is this is headed fordivorce a thousand percent.
Yes, yes, no matter what I do.
SPEAKER_04 (25:22):
Yes, yes.
I mean, I tell people afterwe've given it a good go, uh,
and the leaning in partners, youknow, because the when you're in
that marriage crisis, thedecision the decider has already
made is they won't go back tomarriage part one the way it
(25:44):
was.
And so if the other person isn'tworking on themselves and isn't
evolving and showing that in theinteractions that they have with
the decider, then the deciderslose hope and and the only thing
they can do is divorce, youknow.
(26:06):
So there's plenty of leaning inpartners that like they are
teachers' pets, and I tell themlike you're my teacher's pet.
You do everything that I tellyou to do, and you might just be
a hero and save your marriageand your family.
But um, some are just soimmature, and you know, and I
can't get them to grow up.
I I do everything I but youknow, there's just some people
(26:29):
that are resistant and won'tgrow and change.
And if I get an extant interviewfrom this life with some God or
some divine source, you know,one of the things I'm gonna ask
him is why did were theirpersonality disorders?
SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:44):
Because they there's that's about 10% or more of the
population.
So we've all got them in ourfamilies, and we all know people
who are so difficult.
And I want to know why we had tohave that, those people.
unknown (26:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:00):
Let me know why they existed.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Um, so last time we last last recording that doesn't
exist, Shiny was on, um, andthen today Brianna's on.
But one of the things that wegot into that I really um would
love for you to share is, youknow, once you get divorced, um,
we talked about dating afterdivorce, um, you know, with the
(27:24):
kids, especially if there's kidsinvolved.
Let's talk about that becauseyou know, Shiny's divorced,
Brianna's divorced.
They're both, you know, tryingto figure out how that looks in
the next chapter.
Um, do you have any questions onthat, Brian?
Because I know you're dating,and she had really, really good
insight on what not to do.
SPEAKER_05 (27:44):
Um no, it's funny because I don't, I don't feel
like I truly know or I trulyknew the effect that my marriage
had on me or the divorce had onme until I started dating.
And especially dating, having ahealthy relationship or going
into a healthy relationship.
(28:04):
I'm like, there are certainmoments where I'm like, damn,
that that I expect thingsbecause that's what I'm used to,
knowing that the things that Iam expecting are not right and I
shouldn't be expecting them, butit's just natural instinct going
through.
My ex-husband was um was uh aninteresting human being.
(28:25):
It was a it was a very toxicabusive marriage.
And um, so I feel like there'ssome some trauma there.
And so I I it catches up to meday-to-day.
So just navigate.
SPEAKER_04 (28:38):
What you're telling me between the lines is you have
baggage.
SPEAKER_05 (28:42):
I do.
A shit ton.
SPEAKER_04 (28:44):
And not just from her ex either.
And not just from her wounds.
Oh yeah.
War wounds and um and I I'm surethat your nervous system is on
guard.
It is for you know, any signthat you know that could be
happening again.
Which is which is trauma, that'strauma.
(29:04):
I mean, you're traumatized bythe situation.
It's frustrating.
Yeah, but you know, one of thethings to, you know, and to get
healthy in getting healthy is tokeep in mind that your brain is
coupling two things togetherthat should not be together.
You know, like if a man does X,he's like your husband.
(29:28):
You know, it's like two thingsthat are like let every man
stand on his own without yourpreconceived ideas based on what
your husband did.
SPEAKER_05 (29:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (29:41):
You know, because that that's you know, it's not
fair.
You wouldn't want that.
You know, but a lot, yeah, a lotof things couple, like you know,
like you can just coupling, likea man is an asshole.
You know, like people couplethings together that should not
be coupled, and then just okay,so there's a man, not all men
are assholes, you know.
(30:03):
And and sometimes, you know, andI've talked to many people who
are very, very happily married,who stumbled in the beginning,
but it was all resolved througheffective communication and
understanding one another.
So, you know, some people arereal skittish and quick to run.
(30:25):
And I just, you know, want tosay to everybody is unless
they're doing really awfulthings, you know, talk of, you
know, you can work things, youcan work out things and have a
mutual understanding sometimesinstead of running and throwing
the man in the dumpster.
(30:47):
The other thing is, is I thinkthat one of my pet peeves about
our culture is how few peopledate before they remarry or get
married.
Like, is it realistic to thinkafter you get a divorce that the
second or third person or fifthor sixth person you date is is
(31:08):
the best match that you can findfor yourself?
I find I call this uh the lazydating syndrome.
I think people hate dating, it'san awful experience, and you
just want it to end.
So if somebody seems prettygood, you'll just dive right
(31:28):
into it and freaking getmarried.
Like, and first of all, youdon't have to get married,
everybody.
Like, you don't have to.
Like, why do you like you couldjust date forever?
You know, that's an option.
I don't know why everybody is solike, well, you gotta get
married.
So, so um, I would like to seepeople be patient and have a
(31:51):
larger sample size of men,because the more men you date,
the more you get to knowyourself and what you need and
what you want and what you won'ttolerate.
SPEAKER_05 (32:03):
I feel like I struggle with the opposite, like
first sign of something I don'tlike.
I'm like, I'm never speaking toyou again.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
She literally has just depends.
SPEAKER_04 (32:12):
Like, give me an example.
Give me an example of somethinga man did that got him thrown in
the dumpster.
SPEAKER_05 (32:18):
It's just it's it's more so like energy and
personality.
Like if I if I if it's notsitting well with my soul and I
feel any sort of negativefeeling, I don't take time to
explore that.
I don't take time to understandwhy I'm feeling that negative
feeling.
I'm just like, it's it's over.
I I'm I feel like I'm always onon guard, I think, and men scare
(32:40):
the shit out of me, to behonest.
So um why not uh why not take abreak for a long time?
I did for a long time.
I've been divorced almost twoyears.
Um, so and before I met myex-husband, I was a single mom
for seven years.
So majority of my adult life hasactually been single versus in
(33:00):
really I'm not a relationshiptype of girl.
I don't do well withrelationships.
I'm very independent.
I like my space.
I like um I like I I prefer tobe single majority of the time.
SPEAKER_04 (33:13):
So I took a if I had it to do over again, I'm not
even sure I would marry at all.
Of course, when I was very youngand you had a baby out of
wedlock, you were shamed andshunned, and you know, but but
I'm so thankful that times havechanged.
It's not nearly the stigmathing.
(33:34):
I I still work with clients, youknow, and I live in the state of
Arkansas that's you know, uhBible built.
And some of my clients who are50 now had a baby when they were
15 or 16 and when they were inhigh school, and they they they
have been embarrassed and fullof shame for 20, 30, 40 years,
(33:54):
you know, because of that storyin their life, you know, and uh
thankfully um there most youknow most of them can see the
learn you know learn to retellthat story in a more positive
way.
Um, but the culture is helpedtoo by not shunning women who
(34:14):
have babies out of wedlockanymore.
Thank God.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
The other um conversation piece that I loved
talking about last time was whenyou mentioned um blending
families um when you do findsomeone, and you mentioned the
author, Patricia, was it Pappernow?
Yes, yeah, I love that because Icome from a blended family, so I
just love that conversation.
And and you know, Brianna, notto get into details, but she is
(34:40):
dating someone now, and andthere are children on both
sides, and like what does thatlook like?
Because I I loved your input onthat.
SPEAKER_04 (34:48):
Well, if it was me, I wouldn't do it.
I just wouldn't do it becausethere's too many um obstacles
and complications um andpersonalities, you know, and so
somebody's gonna get screwed inthe deal, in my opinion.
Um, but you know, I thinkPatricia Papernow would be nicer
(35:11):
about it than I am.
I'm not sure she works withfamilies like I do in that
regard.
But I mean, she's just she is uman extreme researcher on the
subject.
So she but but you have to be somature and so well informed of
the dynamics that work and don'twork in a step family, and zero
(35:34):
percent of people educatethemselves about these things,
just put everybody together, andthen the next thing you know,
the family has serious problems.
And you know, one of the mostcommon dynamics is at any given
moment, depending on what'sgoing on, someone in the family
(35:55):
feels like an outsider.
They don't feel like theybelong, they don't feel
comfortable in this new place orwith these new people, or they
feel that everybody else ismelding, but they're not.
And that could be the stepmom,that could be the stepdad, that
could be one of the kids, itcould be several of the kids.
(36:17):
And um, and and then the youknow, the other thing is is one
spouse is easy-going andflexible, and the other one is
strict, and you bring a strictparent into an easy kids that
are used to an easy-goingparenting style, and there will
(36:38):
be hell.
There will be hell to pay.
The kid will not cooperate, theywill hate you, they will resent
you.
So it's very dicey when a stepparent comes in and tries to
parent their stepkids.
So it's usually best to not letthat the biological parent do
(36:58):
the parenting and you stand byas a supportive coach and
friend, you know, like awonderful big sister or a
wonderful big brother, you know,who's kind and sort of
Jesus-like, you know.
But if you come in there, youknow, screaming at your
stepkids, it's not gonna gowell.
(37:20):
I'm just and and a lot of my Ican I've interviewed dozens of
people who are children ofdivorce, they're grown now, and
their stories hurt my heart.
They hurt my heart.
So the truth is children wantalone time with their mom or
(37:40):
with their dad.
They mostly do not want to havestrangers put into their life
that they're forced to call afamily.
It's weird.
It research shows it can takefive years for a child to feel
comfortable in a blended familyhousehold if they ever do.
(38:07):
So this is something that adultsinflict on children that
children usually do not want.
Now, I have to say that some ofmy clients, their step parent
was an angel in their life, andthey came to love that step
parent more than they lovedtheir own biological parent.
(38:28):
So I do want to give a shout outto those people who do it right
and made it impossible, took animpossible job, and just loved
the kids, you know.
Um, but that's not the norm.
The norm is uh like I I spenttwo years talking to a stepmom,
(38:55):
you know, about her blendedfamily and how much she hated
her husband's kids, you know,and and she was gonna divorce
him over this.
SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (39:09):
Yeah, and people leave people that they love
because they can't stand theblended family dynamic.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
Well, I have some stories on that, but yeah, you
do.
I do.
I do.
I I'm the top of the.
Well, doesn't it sound justeasier not to do it?
So are you saying not to getmarried, not to blunt?
Like, what do you mean when yousay don't do it?
SPEAKER_04 (39:31):
Just don't put two families in one hour under one
roof.
Just don't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (39:37):
Like, how about that?
You know, and why can't you justdate forever?
Why do you need to get married?
This is what I'm like.
I wish I think marriage shouldhappen less often.
I think people should stay freeand nimble, you know, so if
things don't go well, you canwalk out without going through a
divorce.
(39:57):
You know, like I don't like ifyou get Married, I want to know
why.
Why do you want to go into alegal arrangement business,
family business with this otherperson?
What is the point?
Like, what are you doing?
(40:18):
I just think that it's likepeople just go, okay, we're in
love, we get married.
I don't just don't think they'rethinking.
You know?
And like and I've been marriedfour times, you know, three
divorces.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
And so you're speaking from experience.
SPEAKER_04 (40:40):
If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't marry
anyone.
Really?
Yeah, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't.
Now some people really lovemarriage, but uh y'all, only 12%
of the population are content intheir marriage.
12%?
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
Yeah.
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (41:02):
That's so why would you want to sign up with
something that has like an 88%chance of you struggling and not
being happy, and yet you know ifyou want to end it, it's gonna
be a friggin' ordeal.
SPEAKER_00 (41:15):
Do you think that um people are not vetting the
people that they're marrying?
Um, are there signs in the Ialways feel like there's signs
in the beginning and that peoplejust ignore and they still go
through with it?
There's no doubt.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:32):
You know, when I interviewed people about why
they how they decided to divorcefrom my dissertation, every one
of them knew that they probablywere making a mistake.
They had the red flags and theyjust swept them aside for stupid
reasons.
SPEAKER_05 (41:48):
I did.
SPEAKER_04 (41:50):
Yeah, so I've done it too.
I've done it too.
And it's the worst form ofself-sabotage.
So, you know, um, most adultsare immature, most have never
been to therapy, they don't knowhow to be a healthy adult, and
they in all their um childhoodtrauma disabilities show up in
(42:15):
their romantic relationships.
They'll tell you, I don't actlike this at work, I don't act
like this with my friends, butput them in with their romantic
partner and all thosedisabilities, emotional immature
disabilities show up, like beingcontrolling, being uh needy,
(42:37):
being dependent, having terribleself-esteem, um, being
boundaryless or being walled offemotionally, those are a control
freak or not having anyself-control, those are all
emotional disabilities fromchildhood trauma.
And and if people have neverworked on it in therapy, then
(43:01):
they've got them.
Whichever ones they have.
And I can tell by talking to acouple for 30 minutes most of
the disabilities that each oneof them have and have always
had.
And we're going to start workingon those first.
SPEAKER_00 (43:18):
So once you get past all of that, what are the
couples that you see that uhhave divorced that are amicable?
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_04 (43:29):
You know, I've only started doing the post-divorce
work um in the last maybe 18months.
So I don't have a huge samplesize right now.
unknown (43:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (43:43):
Um, it's just that I was telling people what to do to
have an amicable divorce or agood co-parenting relationship.
But I don't think they follow mywise instructions.
So now I think that I've learnedthat I need to oversee it with
(44:04):
them, to walk them through it,holding their hand each step of
the way.
So I think this marriage crisismanagement, that's me overseeing
their marriage crisis to makesure they're not blowing up
their family.
I'm now overseeing their divorceprocess to make sure they don't
(44:24):
blow up their family.
And now I'm overseeing theirco-parenting process to make
sure that they're doing right bytheir kids.
And we get it going, and I'mwatching it for some period of
time, and then when they'redoing good for a period of time,
I cut them loose, and then theythey come back in every three to
six months to make sure thatwe're staying the course because
(44:48):
they need that accountability.
You know.
SPEAKER_03 (44:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:52):
Everyone reports they're always nicer a few days
before they know they're meetingwith me.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
So let's let's talk about your book that you said
just came out this pastFebruary, February of this year,
correct?
Yeah.
So, what are some good um, youknow, like a summary of what's
in the book?
SPEAKER_04 (45:20):
Yeah, well, the first book, the first part of
the book, I tell you, you know,I tell the person, okay, you're
you're got this book becauseyour spouse just told you they
want a divorce or you'rethinking about getting a
divorce.
And so this is what's going onwith you.
So, you know, most people thatread that that are in marriage
crisis go, holy God, she'sdescribing how I feel exactly,
(45:44):
you know.
So many people are relieved tofind out that what all this
crazy feelings and emotions arenormal for a marriage crisis.
It's they're not going crazy,they're not the only person in
the world, they're going througha process.
And so after I explain what amarriage crisis is, then I tell
(46:08):
them here's how you got in thissituation.
This is where you screwed up,and now you're in a marriage
crisis.
So I I talk about, you know,healthy marriages, talk about
how marriages go bad, thatbecause there's you know, humans
are a lot alike and they do alot of the same things.
(46:30):
So there's patterns, you know,that people go through.
And so, you know, I bet you ifyou read my book, you'll find
one or two of your patterns inthere, you know.
And then I say, and then it'ssort of like, okay, so now you
know what a marriage crisis isand what you need to do right
now, and now you know how yougot yourself in this situation,
(46:54):
and now you want to know what todo.
So we talk about, I have a wholechapter on mental disorders
because I think people need toknow whether they're married to
someone that has the possibilityof change.
So I give a little primer andoverview of things to watch for
(47:15):
to see if your spouse has got apersonality disorder or if
they've just got something likedepression or anxiety or bipolar
that are treatable.
You know, and uh, and then umI'm like, the next part of the
book is like, should youseparate?
Here's the stuff that youconsider in that, like about
(47:36):
separation.
Here's how it's gonna go down.
If you do decide to separate,here's the criteria for
separation.
If you do decide a separation,here's exactly how you do it.
And I have a document in therecalled the Managed Separation
Agreement that they can use as aguideline.
And then the next chapter issort of like if you want a
divorce and you want it to beamicable, this is what you do
(47:59):
right here.
And then, of course, I have awhole back section on um
post-divorce issues and the andthe children, and then tons and
tons and tons of resources inthe back.
I'm telling you, if you don'tget yourself healthy right now,
then you're just gonna repeatthis mess with somebody else.
(48:21):
You know, and this is gonna taketime, like going to school, and
you're either gonna do it oryou're not, and most people
don't do it.
So, but anyway, I put a bunch ofgreat resources in the back of
the book that that are placesthat I would go and things I
would do, and some of them Ihave done.
Um, if I was in your situation,the best books to read, the
(48:44):
things you need to know, thekind of mental health stuff you
need to be doing, you know,because I don't want this this
business to keep repeatingitself.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, especially when there'skids involved, because yeah, the
divorce is not what damages thekids, it's how the adults handle
it in this situation.
So absolutely.
So you're doing great work,Becky.
SPEAKER_04 (49:11):
I'm trying, but I feel like I am trying to herd
monkeys, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (49:17):
That's funny.
Bree, do you have any questionsfor her before we part?
Or Becky, do you have anyanything additional that you
would like to add?
SPEAKER_00 (49:26):
I don't.
You ask great questions.
Thank you.
I can talk to you forever.
I have so many questions, but Iknow we have to kind of keep it
tight.
So thank you for sharing yourexperience and what you do.
SPEAKER_05 (49:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (49:40):
You know, you know, one of my dreams is to have a
talking about relationshipmarathon to raise money for
charity.
And we will set an amount ofmoney that we want to raise and
people donate to get us to shutup.
That's hilarious.
I love that spin.
(50:01):
So so maybe one day we could doone of those marathons.
And and uh when people have hadenough, maybe they'll give us 20
or 50 bucks to shut up.
That's hilarious.
Charity.
SPEAKER_00 (50:13):
I love it.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I want to thank you.
Um, like I said, I have I cantalk about the blended thing, I
could talk about divorce all daylong.
Like I love anything aboutrelationships, so I really
appreciate you, appreciate youcoming on.
SPEAKER_04 (50:28):
You know, it's hard.
It's really hard.
Um, everything I'm asking ofpeople is really, really hard.
Yeah.
But we can, it's it's possible.
And so I'm asking people to makethe effort to be better.
SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (50:45):
You're welcome.
And I really, really thank youfor you know coming back on and
and understanding that.
Happy to be here.
All right, you take care.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (50:55):
Bye.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
I will leave you all with this.
Your soul already knows theanswer.
You just have to be quiet enoughto hear it and brave enough to
listen.
Thank you so much for listeningto Virago247.
If you haven't done so already,go ahead and hit that subscribe
(51:20):
button and please give us afive-star rating.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Instagram at Virago24
underscore seven and on Facebookat Virago247.
And just connect with us andshare your story.
We'd love to hear from you.
Today's conversation is not about sugarcoating
relationships.
It's about saving them wheneverything is on the line.
I'm joined by Dr.
Becky Whetstone, a nationallyrecognized marriage crisis
manager who works with couplesin the most high-stakes moments
in their relationships.
Infidelity, betrayal, emotionalshutdown, and the crossroads
(00:24):
between divorce and repair.
Dr.
Becky is known for her direct,compassionate, and no nonsense
approach to helping couplesrebuild trust and make clear
decisions when emotions arerunning high.
If your relationship feelsfragile, confusing, or on the
brink, this conversationmatters.
(00:45):
Let's get into it.
Hi, I am your host, LeonetteAlley, and you are listening to
Virago24-7.
Virago is Latin for femalewarriors, and 24-7 is for all
day, every day.
Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcastthat brings diverse women
together to talk about life andour experiences in this world,
(01:08):
which are based on self-love,mental health, marriage,
children, friendships, andreally anything that needs to be
talked about.
Here you will find everydaygrowth, everyday feelings, with
everyday warriors.
(01:37):
It's nice to see you again.
Full disclosure.
SPEAKER_04 (01:40):
Thank you for having me on your show.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Oh my gosh.
I'm I'm gonna just be open tothe people that are listening.
I have recorded with uh Dr.
Becky before.
We recorded last week, and thereis no evidence of these
recordings because I don't knowwhat I did.
We had a 50-minute conversationthat doesn't exist.
(02:02):
So I appreciate you coming backon.
So, Dr.
Becky Whetstone, you are alicensed marriage and family
therapist.
Uh you call yourself themarriage crisis manager.
You are from Little Rock.
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
I am.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
And we established that my husband is also from
Little Rock.
SPEAKER_01 (02:19):
He asked.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
He wanted me to ask you uh what high school you went
to.
Did you go to high school?
SPEAKER_04 (02:24):
Parkview, Parkview High School.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Parkview, okay, I'll let him know.
Because he went to Hall.
SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:29):
Yeah, and his mom was an English teacher and she
taught at Central.
SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Well, those are the big three.
I mean, other people in LittleRock might argue with me, but
Parkview, Central, and Hall arethe big three.
That's where most of my friendswent.
SPEAKER_00 (02:45):
Okay, wonderful.
Wonderful.
All right.
So she gave us permission tocall her Becky.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So tell us about yourself, howyou got started.
Let's start from the beginning.
SPEAKER_04 (03:00):
Oh, wow.
You know, well, I grew up inArkansas.
You're, you know, in El Dorado,Arkansas, um, which is in South
Arkansas near Louisiana, andit's oil country down there.
And so we I I grew up in a townwhere very early on you realize
there's sort of a caste system,you know, like uh uh there were
(03:21):
the billionaires from the MurphyOil Company, and the Murphy kids
were my age and older.
And so most of me and mysiblings were in school with
them, and they and they went tothe public schools in El Dorado.
So, but everybody always knew,like, you know, if you were a
billionaire Murphy or a or aMurphy cousin or whatever, and
(03:45):
that their kids would bedelivered every day to school in
a limousine, but to theirparents' credit, it was just a
regular station wagon.
Their limousine.
But you're aware of this wealththing, right?
And then there's the um middleclass kids, and then there were
the redneck kids, and then therewere the colored people, the
(04:08):
segregated, the black people inEl Dorado had their own schools
and their own area of town, youknow, it was very bizarre.
And when my parents and I woulddrive out to their area of town,
it would be like going to athird world country.
I remember that.
There were like uh not pavedroads, the houses weren't
(04:32):
painted, they looked like shacksand chanties, and and so I, you
know, I just think that I wasvery sensitive to that as a kid,
you know, and I think that itthat in my DNA was sort of born
this compassion for people thatwere, you know, living lesser
(04:55):
than lives in poverty, or umlike how the black people were
treated in my town, you know,and and um and as luck would
have it, um my school they begana little testing of integration,
and the first black child in myelementary school, we got one
(05:18):
black child, and he was put inmy class.
And his name was Gregory Dykes.
He was such a fun, uh, sweetboy, and I felt very protective
of him at the time.
But it's interesting becauseI've wanted to talk to Gregory
Dykes all these years about whatthat experience was like because
I just can't even imagine.
And because some boys were notvery nice to him.
(05:41):
And um, I looked and looked andlooked for him about every six
months for the last 20 years,and just literally last month I
found him on the internet in anobituary.
It was so sad.
And it, you know, it saidGregory, he lived in Illinois,
but he didn't, he never married,he didn't have kids.
He really was um he lived forhis parents, and um, and it had
(06:06):
a picture of him as a grown-upand everything.
And and but if he'd have been alittle more present on the
internet, you know, than he was,I could have found him and and
talked to him about thatexperience.
But I just think that stuff likethat, you know, formed my
compassion and um kind ofwanting to help people who were
(06:30):
um not pro had no little or noprivilege whatsoever, you know.
Um, and so um, and when Igraduated from high school and
started going to college andstuff, and uh I I started
noticing that my biologicalfamily, you know, that we were
bumping heads and having issues.
(06:51):
And so I started asking myselfthis question am I crazy?
Are they crazy crazy, or are weall crazy?
And so I decided to go totherapy and start figuring this
out.
And that and that and never Ididn't really know anything
about therapy at the time, butthe insights I got there, you
(07:11):
know, were just so mind-blowingto me and and really helped me
improve mentally and emotionallyvery quickly.
And so I suddenly became veryinterested in the counseling
profession and what was possiblethere.
And then a few years later, Imarried my kid's dad, um, having
(07:33):
put my dream of being an advicecolumnist on the back burner for
a variety of reasons.
But I just I think you know,lack of belief that anyone would
ever hire me was a primaryreason.
Um, because I'm a I've alwaysbeen a writer, I've always loved
writing, and I've always lovedreal the idea of relationships
and used to devour advicecolumns.
(07:54):
But here I am being a housewifewith my kids dead.
And when we first met, he wasvery, very loving, like the most
loving, and he's so attractive.
Oh my God.
And and you know, he was justadored me and doted on me, and I
just thought I'm the luckiestperson in the world.
And we got married, and we wentto Australia and New Zealand for
(08:15):
a year or two because of hisjob.
And sometime during the firstsix months of our marriage, he
became emotionally cold anddistant, sort of slamming a door
in my face.
And I started having depressionand panic attacks because I was
(08:35):
like, what the hell?
You know, and you know, this wasum unbelievable that, you know,
I don't know.
I spent the next five yearstrying to get him to come back
and connect with me, but Ifailed.
And that I got to a point whereI just couldn't take it anymore.
He was kind of mean, he wouldsay mean things.
(08:56):
He would always tell me I waswasting my life, and and that
just looking at how I lived mydays made him sick, you know,
because I guess he could seethat there was something in me
that was meant for more.
But at that time, I wanted to dosomething more, but I didn't
know what it was.
But anyway, we went through amarriage crisis.
(09:17):
I got fed up with him.
He came home from work one day.
I said, I think I want toseparate.
Um, and I don't think I don'tknow if I want a divorce or not,
but I I I can't take thisanymore.
And so we entered this thingcalled marriage crisis.
And um, we went to our marriagetherapist, asked uh him what to
(09:39):
do, and he said, Look, if you'renot interested in working on the
marriage, I can't help you.
So he sent us away, and mysoon-to-be ex-husband and I
handled it ourselves, and it wasan absolute disaster for all of
us and our friends and ourfamily, and then we had two
little kids, aged three and sixat the time, who you know paid a
(10:01):
price and still pay a price forall our stupid decisions.
So that didn't sit well with methat the therapist could not
help us with that.
But after, you know, duringthose days, I started going to
all these self-help workshopsand seminars and stuff, kind of
like Tony Robbins stuff, wherethey hit you over the head and
you come out of there going, Ican do anything.
(10:24):
You know?
Yeah.
So I I they they really pumpedme up with confidence and stuff.
So I just made it my business toforce the San Antonio newspaper
to hire me as a feature writer.
And then my goal was to become aa columnist of talking about
relationships.
It took me two years to get thecolumn, and then when I wrote
(10:47):
the column, it was wildlypopular in San Antonio.
People loved it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:53):
So um how did you end up in San Antonio?
SPEAKER_04 (10:57):
Well, um I had been in Little Rock and I was
lamenting, and that's where I'mfrom, that I'd been lamenting
the uh quality of men that I wasmeeting there.
And my sister lived in in SanAntonio, and she said, Look, my
husband works with all thesegood-looking young single men.
(11:19):
Why don't you come down here andhave a fantasy weekend and every
night you'll go out with adifferent man?
And then on the line, we'llleave one night, we'll leave one
night, three at the end, and youcan go on a second date with one
of them if you want to.
So that's what we did.
And so one of the guys she fixedme up with was my kid's dad, who
happened to be her next doorneighbor.
(11:41):
And so she kind of knew himthrough the yard, but he would
come over to their house anddrink wine and stuff, and they
really loved him.
So yeah, so she she fixed us up,and so I moved down there to be
with him.
So, um, so after so I'm I afterI was working with the
newspaper, I was single for fiveyears now, a single mom, and I
(12:06):
remarried a guy uh that had beenone of my dear friends, and we
turned into a romance, and um,and I knew he was a little uh
probably not someone I shouldmarry, but I did marry him um
when he told me that he wasgoing to run for US Congress in
(12:29):
San Antonio, and I knew he wasgonna win.
So, you know, I I had this backthen I had this part of my ego
that loved wild experiences, youknow, like power, prominence,
you know, I just it wasirresistible to me.
So in many ways, I married a manI knew I shouldn't marry to have
(12:52):
that experience up there inWashington, D.C.
And oh, I had the experience,all right.
You know, we were uh marriedfive years, but our divorce took
two years.
Oh wow.
So I went through another dangmarriage crisis, um, and I wrote
a book about that wholeexperience, the five years with
the congressman.
(13:13):
It is an unbelievable story.
And that particular story isavailable on Substack um at the
Congressman's Wife.
And I'm just I I'm right now inthe process of releasing it.
I wrote it 20 years ago, but I'mrewriting it and updating it
with insights from a therapist'spoint of view.
(13:34):
And um, yeah, so it's onSubstack at the Congressman's
Wife.
So um when we got divorced, Ihad just started graduate school
in marriage and family therapy.
And that was that saved mebecause I was extremely
depressed and down over ourdivorce, and I lost my I had to
(13:55):
quit my job.
Uh yeah, I was gonna ask youthat because of being married to
a politician.
And then since I had beenmarried to a politician, he had
a lot of power in the community,so no one wanted to take a
chance on hiring me in a job.
Oh, how you know, they we don'twant to anger the congressman,
you know.
(14:15):
So I started hitting all thesewalls where I couldn't make
anything happen for myself.
And but, you know, like I said,thank God I was in graduate
school and I went to graduateschool for five years and got my
doctorate in marriage and familytherapy.
And when I was there, you know,I was made a point to do a lot
of research on what can be donewhen a couple is in a marriage
(14:38):
crisis.
And I found a bunch of greatresearch, you know.
I was like, why didn't anybodyknow about this?
Why aren't they teaching usabout this in graduate school?
Because in the marriage andfamily therapy classes, they
never even mentioned marriagecrisis or what to do.
It was not a somethingdiscussed.
Now, they each professor wouldalways assign us five or seven
(15:01):
gigantic books to buy, you know,and for their class each
semester.
And a lot of that informationwas tucked in those books, but
no one had time to read allthose books every semester.
So most of us ended up puttingthose books on our shelves as
reference material, you know.
And but years later, like when Iwas doing my research, I'd pull
(15:23):
some of those books down and I'dgo to the library and pull up uh
studies and whatnot.
And there was just so much, somuch research and information on
how are the best ways to havehandle couples in that situation
and how to diagnose yourmarriage to know if you're about
to have a marriage crisis.
(15:45):
So I was kind of like, wow, youknow, um, this is amazing.
I wrote I wrote my dissertationon it, which basically means I
had to read every study and readevery book on that subject that
ever was done.
And I came out of it soknowledgeable about it, and then
I thought, well, I'm kind of anexpert in this now, and I'm
(16:09):
gonna have since no one else ishelping couples in crisis, I'm
gonna have to do it.
So, and I was gonna write a bookabout it to help people, but I
couldn't get anyone to buy mybook back then.
And so I just started trying toattract couples in crisis to my
practice through advertising,and um, they started coming and
(16:31):
I used all the research stuffthat I knew to help them, and I
started tweaking and refiningit.
And so now I've been helpingcouples in crisis for over 25
years, and then finally I wasable to get my book published
last February called I Think IWant Out What to Do When One of
You Wants to End Your Marriage.
(16:52):
So that's what I'm doing now,and I've expanded marriage
crisis management to helping uhwalk people through an amicable
divorce process or a positiveco-parenting uh process.
So I really feel that marriagetherapy has done people wrong by
(17:12):
letting them leave when they saythey want a divorce because
divorce is one of the moststressful experiences a person
can ever go through.
And why would they not stay witha family therapist like us who
can really help smooth the waterand help them not make mistakes
(17:32):
and do the things that willdamage their family the least?
You know, so I'm trying to likecreate something, you know, and
my goal is to put family lawyersout of business.
Um and you know, I've my methodof amicable divorce does not
involve hiring family lawyersand using therapists for most of
(17:55):
it, and then there's other kindsof lawyers you can hire that are
not bloodthirsty, that are morepeaceful oriented.
And so I tell couples how to doit, and um, I just want to start
having a less awful way ofparting ways when you're a
family.
SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
So you're saying like most therapists only work
with couples when they want tosave their marriage, otherwise
you're just kind of left to yourown devices to the other.
That's right.
SPEAKER_04 (18:25):
And now that now, you know, they do tell you in um
graduate school that you can askyour clients if they would like
to transition to divorcetherapy.
But I don't know anyone thatdoes that.
And the and part of the reason Ithink is they don't teach us how
(18:46):
to do divorce therapy.
They just say you can do you cando the divorce therapy, um, but
but that would be something thatyou would have to take a special
interest in and go study in yourown time, you know.
So a lot of my classmates, youknow, aren't even marriage
therapists, even though they'remarriage and family therapists.
It's so interesting that um thatyou know, one of my colleagues
(19:11):
specializes in autism andanother specializes in uh
caretaking of Alzheimer's andParkinson's uh patients.
So just because you're amarriage and family therapy
doesn't really therapist doesn'tnecessarily mean that you know
how to handle couples families,you know.
SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
So what kind of in your in your um practice, um,
what kind of couples do younormally see?
Do you normally deal with peopleboth both sides are rational and
they get it?
Or do you find that one is moredifficult?
And how do you handle those kindof people?
SPEAKER_04 (19:50):
Oh girl.
You know, I had a rough dayyesterday.
SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
Did you?
SPEAKER_04 (19:57):
Did you yeah, you know, I came up Stairs and yet,
like every my husband laughsbecause sometimes I go, It's
time to retire.
Time to retire.
Um be I I I am ashamed to saythat I'm expensive.
You know, my my my fees areexpensive, but it also has cost
(20:21):
me a fortune to get my PhD inmarriage and family therapy and
to get all the training thatI've had to be able to help
people.
I estimate I've spent$200,000beyond graduate school going to
workshops, studying with some ofthe most uh respected experts in
(20:44):
the world in trauma and healingand um divorce and whatnot, you
know?
And so, and I want to keep doingthat.
I want to keep my training goingand learning more and more and
more and more.
So I'm expensive, and because ofthat, um I attract
(21:09):
high-functioning people.
Okay.
So most of my clients areusually college educated in some
sort of professional type jobs.
Um, and I would say of thatgroup, 90% of them are pretty
stable and reasonable.
And to do what I dosuccessfully, you have to be
(21:31):
stable and reasonable.
And if, you know, most peopleenter the process like a bucking
horse, you know, and I and Irealize there's going to be a
little resistance uh in the end,because I coach people to do
counterintuitive things.
You know, marriage crisismanagement is a completely
(21:52):
different animal than marriagetherapy.
I am in marriage therapy, somemarriage therapists would never
be directive and say, you needto do this, you need to do that.
But marriage crisis managementis all about me coaching them
and being directive and stuff.
So I have to sometimes wrestle afew bears, if you will.
(22:15):
And um I tell you what ends upwearing me out sometimes, and
what what ended up wearing meout yesterday is the people who
I spent, let's say I've spentthree or four sessions with them
already outlining everythingthey need to do, and I send them
emails about it and I send theminstructions, and they're well
(22:37):
informed.
They read my book, they're wellinformed of what they should do,
and they totally disregardeverything I say.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Brianna, that sounds like something your ex would do.
It does, does regard everythingthat the professional absolutely
knows better?
SPEAKER_05 (22:52):
He wouldn't have made it to the third session.
SPEAKER_04 (22:54):
So it's like, you know, if it it's the leaning in
partners, you know, are the onesthat struggle the most.
They're the ones that want tosave the marriage, and then
their spouse, the decider, isleaning out and trying to get
away from them.
And they have to stop pursuitand love bombing and begging and
being pathetic and all thosethings.
(23:14):
Um, and we have to get them bothstabilized and everyone calmed
down before we can do anythingelse.
And the more the leaning inpartner chases love bombs,
bitches, screams, uh, cries,shows, you know, just a basket
case behaviors, it turns thedecider off so badly and and
(23:40):
almost ensures a divorcedecision.
So, but there's just some peoplethat won't stop it.
They just won't stop it.
And and, you know, and sometimesif somebody cannot, will not
change their behavior, you know,uh a therapist is going to start
(24:00):
thinking that they have apersonality disorder because
those people cannot change, theycannot control themselves, they
will not, and they're verycertain of their perspective and
that they know what's best, youknow.
So what I say is not especiallymeaningful to them because you
(24:21):
know they think by doing thisthing over here is gonna get the
person back, even though I toldthem if you do that, they're
probably gonna divorce you.
Yeah.
So so wrestling with thosepeople when they're in sessions
with me and screaming andcarrying on um with a decider in
the room, I just I usually justturn my video off when they do
(24:44):
that.
SPEAKER_00 (24:45):
You seem like no nonsense.
Like you're like, you eitherwant to be helped or you don't.
SPEAKER_04 (24:52):
Sometimes I turn my video off and run into the other
room and get my referee blackand white striped t-shirt and
put it on and come back on thescreen.
SPEAKER_05 (25:03):
Have there are there ever times where you're like
coaching couples and then you'relike there's there's no way.
Obviously, their end goal is tomake their marriage work and not
proceed with the divorce.
But is there ever times in theback of your mind where like
there's no way this can work?
This is this is headed fordivorce a thousand percent.
Yes, yes, no matter what I do.
SPEAKER_04 (25:22):
Yes, yes.
I mean, I tell people afterwe've given it a good go, uh,
and the leaning in partners, youknow, because the when you're in
that marriage crisis, thedecision the decider has already
made is they won't go back tomarriage part one the way it
(25:44):
was.
And so if the other person isn'tworking on themselves and isn't
evolving and showing that in theinteractions that they have with
the decider, then the deciderslose hope and and the only thing
they can do is divorce, youknow.
(26:06):
So there's plenty of leaning inpartners that like they are
teachers' pets, and I tell themlike you're my teacher's pet.
You do everything that I tellyou to do, and you might just be
a hero and save your marriageand your family.
But um, some are just soimmature, and you know, and I
can't get them to grow up.
I I do everything I but youknow, there's just some people
(26:29):
that are resistant and won'tgrow and change.
And if I get an extant interviewfrom this life with some God or
some divine source, you know,one of the things I'm gonna ask
him is why did were theirpersonality disorders?
SPEAKER_03 (26:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (26:44):
Because they there's that's about 10% or more of the
population.
So we've all got them in ourfamilies, and we all know people
who are so difficult.
And I want to know why we had tohave that, those people.
unknown (26:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (27:00):
Let me know why they existed.
SPEAKER_00 (27:04):
Um, so last time we last last recording that doesn't
exist, Shiny was on, um, andthen today Brianna's on.
But one of the things that wegot into that I really um would
love for you to share is, youknow, once you get divorced, um,
we talked about dating afterdivorce, um, you know, with the
(27:24):
kids, especially if there's kidsinvolved.
Let's talk about that becauseyou know, Shiny's divorced,
Brianna's divorced.
They're both, you know, tryingto figure out how that looks in
the next chapter.
Um, do you have any questions onthat, Brian?
Because I know you're dating,and she had really, really good
insight on what not to do.
SPEAKER_05 (27:44):
Um no, it's funny because I don't, I don't feel
like I truly know or I trulyknew the effect that my marriage
had on me or the divorce had onme until I started dating.
And especially dating, having ahealthy relationship or going
into a healthy relationship.
(28:04):
I'm like, there are certainmoments where I'm like, damn,
that that I expect thingsbecause that's what I'm used to,
knowing that the things that Iam expecting are not right and I
shouldn't be expecting them, butit's just natural instinct going
through.
My ex-husband was um was uh aninteresting human being.
(28:25):
It was a it was a very toxicabusive marriage.
And um, so I feel like there'ssome some trauma there.
And so I I it catches up to meday-to-day.
So just navigate.
SPEAKER_04 (28:38):
What you're telling me between the lines is you have
baggage.
SPEAKER_05 (28:42):
I do.
A shit ton.
SPEAKER_04 (28:44):
And not just from her ex either.
And not just from her wounds.
Oh yeah.
War wounds and um and I I'm surethat your nervous system is on
guard.
It is for you know, any signthat you know that could be
happening again.
Which is which is trauma, that'strauma.
(29:04):
I mean, you're traumatized bythe situation.
It's frustrating.
Yeah, but you know, one of thethings to, you know, and to get
healthy in getting healthy is tokeep in mind that your brain is
coupling two things togetherthat should not be together.
You know, like if a man does X,he's like your husband.
(29:28):
You know, it's like two thingsthat are like let every man
stand on his own without yourpreconceived ideas based on what
your husband did.
SPEAKER_05 (29:40):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (29:41):
You know, because that that's you know, it's not
fair.
You wouldn't want that.
You know, but a lot, yeah, a lotof things couple, like you know,
like you can just coupling, likea man is an asshole.
You know, like people couplethings together that should not
be coupled, and then just okay,so there's a man, not all men
are assholes, you know.
(30:03):
And and sometimes, you know, andI've talked to many people who
are very, very happily married,who stumbled in the beginning,
but it was all resolved througheffective communication and
understanding one another.
So, you know, some people arereal skittish and quick to run.
(30:25):
And I just, you know, want tosay to everybody is unless
they're doing really awfulthings, you know, talk of, you
know, you can work things, youcan work out things and have a
mutual understanding sometimesinstead of running and throwing
the man in the dumpster.
(30:47):
The other thing is, is I thinkthat one of my pet peeves about
our culture is how few peopledate before they remarry or get
married.
Like, is it realistic to thinkafter you get a divorce that the
second or third person or fifthor sixth person you date is is
(31:08):
the best match that you can findfor yourself?
I find I call this uh the lazydating syndrome.
I think people hate dating, it'san awful experience, and you
just want it to end.
So if somebody seems prettygood, you'll just dive right
(31:28):
into it and freaking getmarried.
Like, and first of all, youdon't have to get married,
everybody.
Like, you don't have to.
Like, why do you like you couldjust date forever?
You know, that's an option.
I don't know why everybody is solike, well, you gotta get
married.
So, so um, I would like to seepeople be patient and have a
(31:51):
larger sample size of men,because the more men you date,
the more you get to knowyourself and what you need and
what you want and what you won'ttolerate.
SPEAKER_05 (32:03):
I feel like I struggle with the opposite, like
first sign of something I don'tlike.
I'm like, I'm never speaking toyou again.
SPEAKER_00 (32:10):
She literally has just depends.
SPEAKER_04 (32:12):
Like, give me an example.
Give me an example of somethinga man did that got him thrown in
the dumpster.
SPEAKER_05 (32:18):
It's just it's it's more so like energy and
personality.
Like if I if I if it's notsitting well with my soul and I
feel any sort of negativefeeling, I don't take time to
explore that.
I don't take time to understandwhy I'm feeling that negative
feeling.
I'm just like, it's it's over.
I I'm I feel like I'm always onon guard, I think, and men scare
(32:40):
the shit out of me, to behonest.
So um why not uh why not take abreak for a long time?
I did for a long time.
I've been divorced almost twoyears.
Um, so and before I met myex-husband, I was a single mom
for seven years.
So majority of my adult life hasactually been single versus in
(33:00):
really I'm not a relationshiptype of girl.
I don't do well withrelationships.
I'm very independent.
I like my space.
I like um I like I I prefer tobe single majority of the time.
SPEAKER_04 (33:13):
So I took a if I had it to do over again, I'm not
even sure I would marry at all.
Of course, when I was very youngand you had a baby out of
wedlock, you were shamed andshunned, and you know, but but
I'm so thankful that times havechanged.
It's not nearly the stigmathing.
(33:34):
I I still work with clients, youknow, and I live in the state of
Arkansas that's you know, uhBible built.
And some of my clients who are50 now had a baby when they were
15 or 16 and when they were inhigh school, and they they they
have been embarrassed and fullof shame for 20, 30, 40 years,
(33:54):
you know, because of that storyin their life, you know, and uh
thankfully um there most youknow most of them can see the
learn you know learn to retellthat story in a more positive
way.
Um, but the culture is helpedtoo by not shunning women who
(34:14):
have babies out of wedlockanymore.
Thank God.
SPEAKER_00 (34:18):
The other um conversation piece that I loved
talking about last time was whenyou mentioned um blending
families um when you do findsomeone, and you mentioned the
author, Patricia, was it Pappernow?
Yes, yeah, I love that because Icome from a blended family, so I
just love that conversation.
And and you know, Brianna, notto get into details, but she is
(34:40):
dating someone now, and andthere are children on both
sides, and like what does thatlook like?
Because I I loved your input onthat.
SPEAKER_04 (34:48):
Well, if it was me, I wouldn't do it.
I just wouldn't do it becausethere's too many um obstacles
and complications um andpersonalities, you know, and so
somebody's gonna get screwed inthe deal, in my opinion.
Um, but you know, I thinkPatricia Papernow would be nicer
(35:11):
about it than I am.
I'm not sure she works withfamilies like I do in that
regard.
But I mean, she's just she is uman extreme researcher on the
subject.
So she but but you have to be somature and so well informed of
the dynamics that work and don'twork in a step family, and zero
(35:34):
percent of people educatethemselves about these things,
just put everybody together, andthen the next thing you know,
the family has serious problems.
And you know, one of the mostcommon dynamics is at any given
moment, depending on what'sgoing on, someone in the family
(35:55):
feels like an outsider.
They don't feel like theybelong, they don't feel
comfortable in this new place orwith these new people, or they
feel that everybody else ismelding, but they're not.
And that could be the stepmom,that could be the stepdad, that
could be one of the kids, itcould be several of the kids.
(36:17):
And um, and and then the youknow, the other thing is is one
spouse is easy-going andflexible, and the other one is
strict, and you bring a strictparent into an easy kids that
are used to an easy-goingparenting style, and there will
(36:38):
be hell.
There will be hell to pay.
The kid will not cooperate, theywill hate you, they will resent
you.
So it's very dicey when a stepparent comes in and tries to
parent their stepkids.
So it's usually best to not letthat the biological parent do
(36:58):
the parenting and you stand byas a supportive coach and
friend, you know, like awonderful big sister or a
wonderful big brother, you know,who's kind and sort of
Jesus-like, you know.
But if you come in there, youknow, screaming at your
stepkids, it's not gonna gowell.
(37:20):
I'm just and and a lot of my Ican I've interviewed dozens of
people who are children ofdivorce, they're grown now, and
their stories hurt my heart.
They hurt my heart.
So the truth is children wantalone time with their mom or
(37:40):
with their dad.
They mostly do not want to havestrangers put into their life
that they're forced to call afamily.
It's weird.
It research shows it can takefive years for a child to feel
comfortable in a blended familyhousehold if they ever do.
(38:07):
So this is something that adultsinflict on children that
children usually do not want.
Now, I have to say that some ofmy clients, their step parent
was an angel in their life, andthey came to love that step
parent more than they lovedtheir own biological parent.
(38:28):
So I do want to give a shout outto those people who do it right
and made it impossible, took animpossible job, and just loved
the kids, you know.
Um, but that's not the norm.
The norm is uh like I I spenttwo years talking to a stepmom,
(38:55):
you know, about her blendedfamily and how much she hated
her husband's kids, you know,and and she was gonna divorce
him over this.
SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (39:09):
Yeah, and people leave people that they love
because they can't stand theblended family dynamic.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
Well, I have some stories on that, but yeah, you
do.
I do.
I do.
I I'm the top of the.
Well, doesn't it sound justeasier not to do it?
So are you saying not to getmarried, not to blunt?
Like, what do you mean when yousay don't do it?
SPEAKER_04 (39:31):
Just don't put two families in one hour under one
roof.
Just don't do it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (39:37):
Like, how about that?
You know, and why can't you justdate forever?
Why do you need to get married?
This is what I'm like.
I wish I think marriage shouldhappen less often.
I think people should stay freeand nimble, you know, so if
things don't go well, you canwalk out without going through a
divorce.
(39:57):
You know, like I don't like ifyou get Married, I want to know
why.
Why do you want to go into alegal arrangement business,
family business with this otherperson?
What is the point?
Like, what are you doing?
(40:18):
I just think that it's likepeople just go, okay, we're in
love, we get married.
I don't just don't think they'rethinking.
You know?
And like and I've been marriedfour times, you know, three
divorces.
SPEAKER_00 (40:36):
And so you're speaking from experience.
SPEAKER_04 (40:40):
If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't marry
anyone.
Really?
Yeah, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't.
Now some people really lovemarriage, but uh y'all, only 12%
of the population are content intheir marriage.
12%?
SPEAKER_00 (41:00):
Yeah.
Wow.
SPEAKER_04 (41:02):
That's so why would you want to sign up with
something that has like an 88%chance of you struggling and not
being happy, and yet you know ifyou want to end it, it's gonna
be a friggin' ordeal.
SPEAKER_00 (41:15):
Do you think that um people are not vetting the
people that they're marrying?
Um, are there signs in the Ialways feel like there's signs
in the beginning and that peoplejust ignore and they still go
through with it?
There's no doubt.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (41:32):
You know, when I interviewed people about why
they how they decided to divorcefrom my dissertation, every one
of them knew that they probablywere making a mistake.
They had the red flags and theyjust swept them aside for stupid
reasons.
SPEAKER_05 (41:48):
I did.
SPEAKER_04 (41:50):
Yeah, so I've done it too.
I've done it too.
And it's the worst form ofself-sabotage.
So, you know, um, most adultsare immature, most have never
been to therapy, they don't knowhow to be a healthy adult, and
they in all their um childhoodtrauma disabilities show up in
(42:15):
their romantic relationships.
They'll tell you, I don't actlike this at work, I don't act
like this with my friends, butput them in with their romantic
partner and all thosedisabilities, emotional immature
disabilities show up, like beingcontrolling, being uh needy,
(42:37):
being dependent, having terribleself-esteem, um, being
boundaryless or being walled offemotionally, those are a control
freak or not having anyself-control, those are all
emotional disabilities fromchildhood trauma.
And and if people have neverworked on it in therapy, then
(43:01):
they've got them.
Whichever ones they have.
And I can tell by talking to acouple for 30 minutes most of
the disabilities that each oneof them have and have always
had.
And we're going to start workingon those first.
SPEAKER_00 (43:18):
So once you get past all of that, what are the
couples that you see that uhhave divorced that are amicable?
What does that look like?
SPEAKER_04 (43:29):
You know, I've only started doing the post-divorce
work um in the last maybe 18months.
So I don't have a huge samplesize right now.
unknown (43:42):
Okay.
SPEAKER_04 (43:43):
Um, it's just that I was telling people what to do to
have an amicable divorce or agood co-parenting relationship.
But I don't think they follow mywise instructions.
So now I think that I've learnedthat I need to oversee it with
(44:04):
them, to walk them through it,holding their hand each step of
the way.
So I think this marriage crisismanagement, that's me overseeing
their marriage crisis to makesure they're not blowing up
their family.
I'm now overseeing their divorceprocess to make sure they don't
(44:24):
blow up their family.
And now I'm overseeing theirco-parenting process to make
sure that they're doing right bytheir kids.
And we get it going, and I'mwatching it for some period of
time, and then when they'redoing good for a period of time,
I cut them loose, and then theythey come back in every three to
six months to make sure thatwe're staying the course because
(44:48):
they need that accountability.
You know.
SPEAKER_03 (44:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (44:52):
Everyone reports they're always nicer a few days
before they know they're meetingwith me.
That's funny.
SPEAKER_00 (45:02):
So let's let's talk about your book that you said
just came out this pastFebruary, February of this year,
correct?
Yeah.
So, what are some good um, youknow, like a summary of what's
in the book?
SPEAKER_04 (45:20):
Yeah, well, the first book, the first part of
the book, I tell you, you know,I tell the person, okay, you're
you're got this book becauseyour spouse just told you they
want a divorce or you'rethinking about getting a
divorce.
And so this is what's going onwith you.
So, you know, most people thatread that that are in marriage
crisis go, holy God, she'sdescribing how I feel exactly,
(45:44):
you know.
So many people are relieved tofind out that what all this
crazy feelings and emotions arenormal for a marriage crisis.
It's they're not going crazy,they're not the only person in
the world, they're going througha process.
And so after I explain what amarriage crisis is, then I tell
(46:08):
them here's how you got in thissituation.
This is where you screwed up,and now you're in a marriage
crisis.
So I I talk about, you know,healthy marriages, talk about
how marriages go bad, thatbecause there's you know, humans
are a lot alike and they do alot of the same things.
(46:30):
So there's patterns, you know,that people go through.
And so, you know, I bet you ifyou read my book, you'll find
one or two of your patterns inthere, you know.
And then I say, and then it'ssort of like, okay, so now you
know what a marriage crisis isand what you need to do right
now, and now you know how yougot yourself in this situation,
(46:54):
and now you want to know what todo.
So we talk about, I have a wholechapter on mental disorders
because I think people need toknow whether they're married to
someone that has the possibilityof change.
So I give a little primer andoverview of things to watch for
(47:15):
to see if your spouse has got apersonality disorder or if
they've just got something likedepression or anxiety or bipolar
that are treatable.
You know, and uh, and then umI'm like, the next part of the
book is like, should youseparate?
Here's the stuff that youconsider in that, like about
(47:36):
separation.
Here's how it's gonna go down.
If you do decide to separate,here's the criteria for
separation.
If you do decide a separation,here's exactly how you do it.
And I have a document in therecalled the Managed Separation
Agreement that they can use as aguideline.
And then the next chapter issort of like if you want a
divorce and you want it to beamicable, this is what you do
(47:59):
right here.
And then, of course, I have awhole back section on um
post-divorce issues and the andthe children, and then tons and
tons and tons of resources inthe back.
I'm telling you, if you don'tget yourself healthy right now,
then you're just gonna repeatthis mess with somebody else.
(48:21):
You know, and this is gonna taketime, like going to school, and
you're either gonna do it oryou're not, and most people
don't do it.
So, but anyway, I put a bunch ofgreat resources in the back of
the book that that are placesthat I would go and things I
would do, and some of them Ihave done.
Um, if I was in your situation,the best books to read, the
(48:44):
things you need to know, thekind of mental health stuff you
need to be doing, you know,because I don't want this this
business to keep repeatingitself.
SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, especially when there'skids involved, because yeah, the
divorce is not what damages thekids, it's how the adults handle
it in this situation.
So absolutely.
So you're doing great work,Becky.
SPEAKER_04 (49:11):
I'm trying, but I feel like I am trying to herd
monkeys, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (49:17):
That's funny.
Bree, do you have any questionsfor her before we part?
Or Becky, do you have anyanything additional that you
would like to add?
SPEAKER_00 (49:26):
I don't.
You ask great questions.
Thank you.
I can talk to you forever.
I have so many questions, but Iknow we have to kind of keep it
tight.
So thank you for sharing yourexperience and what you do.
SPEAKER_05 (49:40):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (49:40):
You know, you know, one of my dreams is to have a
talking about relationshipmarathon to raise money for
charity.
And we will set an amount ofmoney that we want to raise and
people donate to get us to shutup.
That's hilarious.
I love that spin.
(50:01):
So so maybe one day we could doone of those marathons.
And and uh when people have hadenough, maybe they'll give us 20
or 50 bucks to shut up.
That's hilarious.
Charity.
SPEAKER_00 (50:13):
I love it.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I want to thank you.
Um, like I said, I have I cantalk about the blended thing, I
could talk about divorce all daylong.
Like I love anything aboutrelationships, so I really
appreciate you, appreciate youcoming on.
SPEAKER_04 (50:28):
You know, it's hard.
It's really hard.
Um, everything I'm asking ofpeople is really, really hard.
Yeah.
But we can, it's it's possible.
And so I'm asking people to makethe effort to be better.
SPEAKER_00 (50:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:44):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_00 (50:45):
You're welcome.
And I really, really thank youfor you know coming back on and
and understanding that.
Happy to be here.
All right, you take care.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_02 (50:55):
Bye.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
I will leave you all with this.
Your soul already knows theanswer.
You just have to be quiet enoughto hear it and brave enough to
listen.
Thank you so much for listeningto Virago247.
If you haven't done so already,go ahead and hit that subscribe
(51:20):
button and please give us afive-star rating.
Also, don't forget to follow uson Instagram at Virago24
underscore seven and on Facebookat Virago247.
And just connect with us andshare your story.
We'd love to hear from you.
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