April 15, 2026 • 39 mins
Some stories don’t tie themselves into a neat bow. They pull you backward through memory, family, and the moments you’d rather skip, until you finally see what shaped you. That’s why I wanted to sit down with Annie Dike, author of “Clovis”, a character-driven coming-of-age novel that’s raw, funny in places, and unflinching where it counts.
We talk about what’s rooted in Annie’s real life and what becomes fiction, why the book opens with Callie in a hospital bed, and how childhood instability can echo into adult choices. Annie shares why she writes from multiple points of view and how stepping into a parent’s mind can change everything, especially when you’re trying to untangle trauma, identity, grief, and forgiveness. If you love literary fiction that feels emotionally true, this conversation digs into the craft behind that honesty.
We also go beyond the page. Annie explains how she built a law career that supports writing and travel, why she moved away from defending corporations, and what it’s like to work behind the scenes as an attorney. Then we get into sailing, cruising life, and the surprising truth that the ocean isn’t always the scariest part, sometimes it’s being alone with your own thoughts.
If this hit home, subscribe to Virago 24/7, share the episode with a friend who loves powerful women’s stories, and leave a five-star review so more listeners can find us. What line from a book has ever made you stop and rethink your life?
Go to my website http://www.virago247.net for all things Virago 24/7
You can email me at virago247podcast@gmail.com
Instagram: virago24_7
Facebook: Virago 24/7
Thanks for listening and don't forget to share, share, share!
Everyday growth, everyday healing with everyday warriors!
Music by Deli Rowe: "Space to Move"
Logo by Kaylin Talley
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Some stories don't just unfold, they unravel layer
by layer, truth by truth, untilyou're left staring at the parts
of yourself that you've tried tooutrun.
Today's guest is someone whounderstands that kind of
reckoning intimately.
I'm joined by Annie Dyke, theauthor, attorney, sailor, and
(00:21):
storyteller whose novel Clovisis as raw as it is unflinching.
Through her work, she exploresthe messy intersections of
trauma, identity, and what itreally means to come of age when
life doesn't give you cleanlines or easy answers.
In this conversation, we'rediving into the emotional
(00:42):
undercurrents of her writing,the personal truth is behind
Clovis, and what it takes toface your past without losing
yourself in it.
Let's get into it.
Hi, I am your host, LeonetteTalley, and you are listening to
Virago 24-7.
(01:02):
Virago is Latin for femalewarrior, and 24-7 is for all
day, every day.
Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcastthat brings diverse women
together to talk about life andour experiences in this world.
We share our views on self-love,mental health, marriage,
children, friendships, andreally anything that needs to be
talked about.
(01:23):
Here you will find everydaygrowth, everyday healing with
everyday warriors.
(01:46):
You look great.
So it's good to meet you, Annie.
You too.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm so happy to have you.
Um, so we have Annie Dyke onwith us on Virago 24-7.
And you're on here.
You have a lot of titles, butyou're on here mainly because I
read your book.
Um it's called Clovis.
(02:06):
Yes.
And for the past month I've beenreading that book, and I really
like it.
Yeah, what do you think?
I really like it.
I'm the kind of person that Ilike I like to read things about
relationships and just everydaylife.
And I'm not a sci-fi person oryou know, big like random, just
(02:27):
fake worlds.
Like these are real people withreal feelings and emotions and
why they do what they do.
And so I did, I loved it.
I really, really did.
It's it's my genre, it's thekind of stuff that I like.
So I am so thrilled to hear thatbecause mine is definitely
character driven.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
I am um it gets plot heavy towards the end, but in
the beginning, you just reallyneed to care about these
characters, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
Like you lay the foundation.
So I I was trying to figure outwhere we should start because
you're also a lawyer, yeah.
And you're also a sailor.
I saw I saw that you sailed.
Um, but let's start.
We'll get to all of that, but Ido want to start because we are
talking about the book, and itis your first fiction book,
(03:10):
correct?
It's my first literary fiction.
Okay, literary fiction.
I've written one other fictionbook.
Okay.
And so let's let's uh let thelisteners know like what it's
about and like lay thefoundation for that because I do
have a lot of questions aboutwhat's fiction and what is like
based on your life.
Because I know you're that's mymain question.
Yeah.
So many people ask me that one,don't worry.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
So yeah, so Clovis is um, it's a great coming of
age, and it's uh a good bit mystory.
It's not like autobiographicalor memoir, but a lot of truth
there for sure.
Um, you're gonna follow Callie,who is um not so quietly me.
That's the central character,um, from about age six to age
30.
And you're gonna go through herrelationships with her parents,
(03:56):
how they evolve, break up, comeback together.
Her sibling relationship ishuge.
And you're just gonna see anemotional journey from the
viewpoint of someone that I hopea lot of people relate to, a
woman who is, you know,initially a girl, a young woman
who, you know, struggles so hardand tries for everybody in her
family to the point of breaking,you know, which we often all do,
(04:18):
and watch this woman evolve andfirst run away from her roots
and then realize how importantthey are and embrace them
towards the end.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Nice.
So you are from there.
And the the book, you know,there's a lot of different
characters and relationships.
And um what is it from yourbackground that want like made
you want to write this book?
Like what what were yourexperiences in Clovis?
SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
Yeah, and definitely the the reason for starting this
book was childhood stories, andI've told everyone that it's
just I my childhood was um, youknow, a little bit strained and
tortured, you'll see, with a lotof things that went on, but it
was also so rich in that Iexperienced so much, probably
because my parents were divorcedand I was sort of pulled all
over the nation dealing withfamily issues, but it also, you
(05:10):
know, expanded my world.
It blew it up threefold.
And that was really cool.
I've always wanted to sharethat.
And also I think the resourcesmy parents had were very minimal
compared to what you know, a lotof kids have these days, and the
fun and creativity and things wewere able to capture and create
just with less money andresources.
I've always wanted to share thatbecause I think I think kids
(05:33):
these days, I wish they had moreof an eclectic upbringing,
outside adventure, skinningtheir knees, dirt under their
fingernails, you know, and so Ialways want to share stories
like that.
And the um the maxi pad story,Lena, if you remember that one.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Thank you.
Always use that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
That's a fun one.
So that's just a prototypicalexample of that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
So that really that really happened.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Yeah.
Oh, that's 100% true.
100% true.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
I love that.
That's hilarious.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:00):
So that's see, that's not a rumor.
I could share that one briefly.
But I was trying to show,showcase, I really wanted to
highlight my parents.
Um, I mean, a lot of my familymembers, my brother,
essentially, he's the main maincharacter.
But I wanted to put a flashlighton both of them, my parents, my
mother and father, good and bad,you know, their flaws, their
(06:21):
depth, their um the joy theybrought me, but then also the
pain, the lessons, you know.
And to do that, I felt likethese stories would really help
because the MaxiPad story is agreat example of it's silly,
it's funny, it's something mydad did in an odd moment where
he's dealing with a little babygirl.
I mean, a cowboy doesn't reallyknow what to do with that and
which way to hold it upside downor right side up.
(06:43):
You know, he was always like,What do you want, babes?
Am I supposed to touch that?
And I'm like, get in there, dad.
But uh, he was great and that hetried, you know, and he was
resourceful.
And um, so there's dark elementsto that story in that we're
divorced, and my brother and Iwere with my dad, and things are
looking a little like I don'tknow if our teeth are gonna get
brushed and we're gonna go tobed on time, but we're gonna
have an adventure and we'regonna have an amazing,
(07:05):
irreparable, you know, momentthat just can't be recreated.
And I wanted to capture thosethings and that kind of
childhood, the honesty of thatkind of childhood.
unknown (07:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And then there was um your your mom, and that's a
complicated relationship aswell.
And I love how you, you know,Callie is the main character,
and and a lot of the story is inher voice, but then there are
chapters where you use the othervoices, and it's fascinating to
me how, you know, we aschildren, because I come from
(07:38):
similar background where it'sjust kind of not stable and
young parents and they don'tknow what they're doing.
And now that I'm old, yeah, nowthat I'm older, I'm like, okay,
you you forgive and you and yougive grace and all of that.
So I love that you get in themind of the characters, like you
see Callie's point of view, butthen you see the parents' point
of view and what they arethinking.
(08:00):
And you know, it may not alwaysmake sense.
It's like, well, you didn't haveto handle it that way, but for
them, it made sense.
Like it's their I did, Iappreciated um getting into the
minds of the other charactersand what their thoughts were.
Um I'm glad you really lovethat.
That's a that was a really coolelement.
Um, also, like a lot of thethemes that stood out to me were
(08:21):
just like perseverance andresilience and and um
forgiveness and and loss andgrief.
And so what have you learnedfrom like living this life in
Clovis?
Like what made you because Ifeel I I was like, I hope she's
Cali.
I hope she's Cali because Ireally love it.
(08:42):
I love I love how like strong, Ilove strong women.
What what is it inside of youthat just keeps going and keeps
persevering?
SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Great.
And those are both kind of twoquestions, so many things are
running through my head.
I think a lot of it is it's mymom and my dad.
My dad, you'll see in the book,he was always joy in the face of
to me as a kid, even kind ofinsurmountable grief and sorrow.
You know, he was just he wouldsing, he had songs, he was the
dancing cowboy is what it kindof felt like.
(09:13):
And he always taught me thatthat you can choose how you
respond to a situation.
And um, you asked me to, so Iwill, which is great.
My dad, there's a passage in thebook that I thought that'd be
really fun to share.
Um, and this is um, you talkedabout the other voices too, so
this plays in really well totalk about that briefly.
I did I wrote the whole bookfirst in first person.
So it was Callie, which is me,and it was totally her, and it
(09:35):
was just stream of consciousnessand flew out of me, Lynette.
This book was like three timeslonger when I started.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
It was um, I don't know if youwrite much or kind of in that
world, it was uh 255,000 words,which about 70,000 is one book.
unknown (09:52):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
Well, you had a lot to say, and I'm sure a lot of
experiences, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
A lot to say.
But what a cool, a cool thingwhen I did the big editing
project, which was amazing andfun for me, it was uh it was an
awesome, awesome experience.
My editor, um, I just had a fewvoices, not very many.
It was like mom, dad, and maybeJude, just a couple times at the
very end.
And he was like, for whateverreason, you have a knack for
this.
Like you sounded like acompletely different person,
(10:18):
which totally threw me away.
But that was really cool.
So I did a couple chapters therein different voices, like you
said.
So you get to hear from theother characters in the book
from their point of view.
Because to me, one of the hugethings of the book, um, the
other passage I have is it isabout point of view.
As a child, I'm gonna see my momin a very immature and you know,
(10:38):
adolescent way.
I'm gonna see her through eyesthat are righteous, and I think
I'm so right and I knoweverything.
And I'm gonna judge her for herdecisions and what I think is
poor decisions, you know?
And so, point of view is superimportant.
So, like you said, I want you toget in the mind of the parent
and see what they were dealingwith and what they had going on.
Maybe it didn't make sense toyou as the kid on the other
(11:00):
side, but if you get in theirhead, maybe you'll understand,
right?
So, one passage here, this isfrom my dad, and he's talking to
me, Callie, in a letter.
And my dad has always taught methis from the beginning.
I this is from when we werechildren.
It's about aging.
And so he's telling me, Callie,it's actually a peaceful feeling
growing older, I have found.
It calms you, gives you footing,and makes you see outcomes
(11:20):
developing early on.
Bad decisions and bad peoplebecome easier to spot.
Age also makes you aware thatthings are always constantly
changing, and that's okay.
Necessary even.
It's a strange but humbling andcomforting feeling that you're
not nearly as in control as youwould like to be, babes, and
that's okay.
That's just straight up what wecall it, cowboy wisdom from my
(11:42):
dad.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
So it's so I love that.
It's so funny because you know,I read the book and there there
were two things that stood out.
The one that I want to readlater, and then literally that
one.
Like, no lie.
Oh, really?
No lie, no lie.
I picked it, um, I wasn't, I Iactually screenshotted it too.
I screenshot it two paragraphs,another one, and then that one.
(12:05):
So it's funny that you readthat.
SPEAKER_02 (12:06):
Wow, that needs to be on my tombstone because other
people have picked that one too.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
So really, it's just um, I I love lessons.
I love like I love words ofencouragement, life lessons.
And so that's what that meant tome when I read it.
Um, so Callie, you know, we wesee her at the beginning at a
young age and like all thestruggles, and then she becomes
(12:31):
a career woman and becomes alawyer, which is where lawyer
comes in.
So, what was it that made youwant to be a lawyer?
And are you still practicing?
SPEAKER_02 (12:43):
I I so I am I am practicing.
I don't represent clients,particularly me.
So I usually work for otherlawyers.
Kind of lawyers tap me to dotheir briefwriting and motion
practice and all that stuff.
Um, so I'm kind of a little, I'mactive, but a little behind the
scenes, which I like.
So I'm not front row and in thejury trials, like front and
center.
I do a lot of the support workbehind the scenes, which is
(13:04):
great, Lynette.
And the reason I structured itthat way is so that I could
travel.
You know, I could work remotelyand use this law degree to make
money to write and travel.
That would be the end goal ofall of this.
But um, I would say being alawyer is you'll see in the
book, it's very true to form,especially my childhood years.
My brother, my brother's actualname is John.
(13:24):
Um, but same thing.
We're three years apart.
He was always teaching me, um,educating me.
And we both knew that that wasour ticket out of Clovis.
We both felt that way.
And just as kids do, we werelike, I'm gonna be a doctor, I'm
gonna be a lawyer, you know,anything that had the big
salary.
I mean, I hate to say it, butthat's what we're like, yeah,
whatever gets us out of here.
We're like shooting harpoonguns, you know, just hoping
(13:46):
it'll stick.
And um, we're good with words.
My brother and I, you know, wewrote a lot growing up.
I even have I was writing backthen, little um, I used to do
newsletters, like Sweet ValleyHigh kind of newsletters.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
Oh, I read all those books.
SPEAKER_02 (14:00):
I love those books, love those books.
So I would do that as a kid.
I was always into words andwriting.
I was like on the journal teamand the high school yearbook and
all that stuff, you know.
And so um, lawyer just was agood fit.
I knew words were a skill forme.
So, you know, reading, writing,I just went with lawyer, but I I
will say when I startedpracticing, you know, you go
(14:21):
through law school and the barexam and all that.
When I started, I was on thedefense side, um, just like
Callie is in the book, uminsurance defense.
And I did not love thatpractice.
When you get deep into that andfeel what defending corporations
feels like and can be like, andI'm proud of myself for stepping
away from that.
That was not the law that Iwanted to practice for the rest
(14:43):
of my life.
And now I work on the plaintiffside, helping, you know, sort of
small firms go after the bigdogs, and that feels so much
better.
I love that stuff.
So I do love it.
I still love doing that, andyou'll find it's kind of cool,
it's coming out later.
But in the sequel to Clovis,which I'm working on now, is a
huge legal plot.
So Callie's like taking down thebad guys and stuff.
(15:04):
So that's happening.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Oh, good for you.
Oh, okay.
I can't wait to read that one.
Good for you.
Yeah.
Um, I I love that.
And so, where does sailing comefrom?
Because I I've read that youhave written books about
sailing.
Is that true?
Okay, so where does that comeinto your life?
SPEAKER_02 (15:22):
It crashed into my world about like you're saying
it.
Like I did not see sailingcoming.
What happened was, as I shouldput it, is I met I met a boy.
You know how these thingshappen.
I was working in um Mobile,Alabama, which is pretty far
south of Alabama, so it's prettyclose to Pensacola, Florida,
which is where I'm at now.
(15:42):
And um just started hanging outwith some friends who are in
Pensacola.
And one night, this is aterrible story, but I'm gonna
tell it.
A good friend of mine's like,hey girl, come to this bar.
I got a really cute guy I wantyou to meet.
I'm like, okay, all right.
And so I come to Pensacola, andshe points him out, and it's
Philip, my partner now, who I'mwith and have been with now,
don't tell the world, but like15 years.
(16:03):
So I mean, we're we're set.
Um, but I met him that night,and I'm telling you, Lynette, he
was talking about I'm gonna geton a boat and cruise around the
world.
And I was like, Holy crap, thatsounds amazing.
I'm coming.
And I kind of told him thatjokingly, and it's been a
hundred percent true.
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
So that was all Philip was was he was that's
funny.
My husband's name is Philip.
Oh was he sailing before that,or he's just like, I'm gonna
sail and we're gonna go.
SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
So an amazing, it's a really cool story.
And the reason, a lot of thereason that I am the way I am
now, very um people see me aslike adventurous and willing to
just try all these differentcareers and go travel the world.
And a lot of that is because ofPhilip, and I will tell you
because he just came to me as acompletely fresh human.
I was so used to men, and I hateto say, but they were just
(16:55):
hunting, golf fish, and that'sjust what they were devoted to.
It's what they love, which isgreat, awesome.
I'm not, and I just wanted more,I wanted to do more and see
more.
And so Philip presented withthat.
Like, I'm gonna get on a boatand sail around the world.
His actual background is um,he's a Marine, he was in the
Marines, and um, very cool storythere, and that he wanted to do
(17:15):
that as a very young age, atlike age six, and wrote the
Marines.
Like, I'd love to be a part, andthey're like, We want you to get
your education first, so go tohigh school.
And his mom still has theletter, it's a whole thing.
That is so he's a very yeah,it's a neat story.
He's a very driven person too,and um, so he is in the Marines,
and then he went to law schooland he um had sailed some with
(17:36):
his uncle um just aroundPensacola Bay.
Not the sailing we're talkingabout is like live on your boat,
like you know, you're on theboat and you go, you know,
across oceans and long passages.
That's the kind of sailing hewas talking about, which he had
not done.
Um, because you kind of have tofind the right person to do that
with, you know.
Um, but when he met me, hisuncle, who was very dear to him,
who got him into sailing, was inthe middle of like prostate
(18:00):
cancer and passing away.
And so Philip was very much inthe mindset of the clock is
ticking.
I am serious to this sailingdream.
I'm committed.
And so kind of meeting me inthat moment, and I was fresh off
divorce.
I wanted fun, change,excitement.
We just kind of collided at theright moment.
And so he was serious, I wasserious.
We started cruising about a yearor two after that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
How awesome! So tell me, I love to travel, but yeah,
and I love the ocean, but beingin it, like I like to look at
it, but being in the oceanterrifies me.
How how like where have yougone?
Like what adventures have youbeen on?
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
Oh my god, we've had such a great time.
I'm so glad you're asking aboutthis.
So we started, of course, inPennsylvania, Florida, you know,
and um uh across the Gulf ofMexico is that can be an arduous
passage.
Like, don't let the ocean, youknow, fool you that it's the
only thing out there that cankick your butt.
Yeah, the Gulf of Mexico ishuge.
Um, so it's big.
Uh so we would do that a coupletimes to just kind of start.
(18:59):
And then we um in 2016 we didCuba, which was the coolest
thing we've ever done.
Hands down, Philip and I willnever regret having done that.
It just opened.
So we did that, which wasamazing, and then we've done the
Bahamas a lot several times, andwe've crossed um on other boats,
not our boat, but we've crossedover the Atlantic to France and
then from France back to the tothe BBIs and USBIs.
(19:22):
So we've done the AtlanticCircle, which is cool.
Um, you're asking though aboutbeing out there.
I will say, and I've told a lotof people this, I'm more scared,
Lynette, on the interstate in avehicle going 80 miles an hour
than in a boat.
And I can assure you, I've I'venever feared for my life out
there as much as I do every dayin just regular traffic because
everything goes so slow.
(19:43):
I mean, the fastest you're gonnago on a sailboat, our boat,
which is an even a prettyhigh-end boat, is like six miles
an hour.
unknown (19:50):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Okay.
You're going, I mean, maybeeight or nine if you're lucky
and the wind's great and you'rejust really cooking, you're
cooking at eight miles an hour.
You're flying with that.
I mean, whoa, big deal.
So you're going really slow.
I mean, in the ocean.
That speed is scary in a marinabecause you're gonna hit
everything coming in, but youknow, in the ocean, mainly the
things that are gonna get youout there is um it's
(20:12):
psychological.
Like you're gonna start thinkingabout the things in your life
you've wanted to change,regrets, people you've wanted to
say things to that.
You haven't, that's what willstart eating at you.
You're really in a battle withyourself.
Oh wow, it's the biggest thing Ican say, which sometimes is the
worst battle.
Some people really struggle outthere, they do not like being
alone.
Yeah, I do.
I like that that's so true.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
I like being alone.
I can be by myself.
Me too.
Yeah, I don't I haveconversations with people about
that a lot.
Like people that have to staybusy, busy, busy, busy and do
this and do that.
It's like, hmm, there'ssomething going on that you just
can't sit still and be byyourself.
Yeah, yeah.
They start to buzz out out thereand they they kind of lose it.
I want to read, um, since we'retalking about thinking, the the
(20:57):
one passage that I wanted toread because you know, I've I've
experienced death and and lossand and that.
And these this little paragraphhere, I was like, okay, it's
something that I just mostpeople should be thinking about
these things.
So it says, um, this is it.
I have to wonder if I did enoughwith my time here.
(21:18):
Did I touch people?
Did I make them feel loved?
Should I have broken my promiseto Rachel and reached out?
Should I have tried to be afather to that little girl?
And did I not because I wasscared or because I thought it
was the right thing to do?
Did I show Levi enough love?
Um, the amount he deserved.
Did I make Hallie strong enough?
(21:39):
Did I teach her enough?
I'll never know.
And I don't want to keep readingbecause it might give some
things away.
And and I I love those questionsbecause since I've been doing
this podcast, that's the kind ofstuff that like comes up with
with a lot of conversations.
It's like, what are we doing?
What's our purpose?
Like what why are we here?
(22:00):
here, what am I leaving?
And I I really, really, reallyliked that.
So I wanted to share um thatwhat from the book with all the
care first of all, before wewhat are the what characters are
are all they are all of themreal or some of them made up?
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
Very few made up.
But um I get so Levi is my firstcompletely fictional character,
which I was very proud of him.
I love him.
But he was my creation.
Mariah's real Jay's real Jude,mom, dad, all the all of it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
And all the stories are real.
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
I would say I would say for the most part when I get
to college when Callie getsabout in college level, that's
when things start to turn tofiction.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Um with with that with that um is that something
with what I just read is thatsomething that happened I'm
trying not I'm trying not to Iknow I know you're doing you're
doing great.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
I think the best way to answer is um is no thankfully
but my goal in all this and inany book I write for me to
showcase love I feel like youhave to lose it.
You know you have it has to betaken away at some point.
You know the person leaves yourlife or they move to a different
place or they pass away or youknow you have to lose that love
(23:20):
in order to understand what youhad you know and I was I was
nervous to do that in thebeginning I'll tell you Lynette
because I was like oh man whatI'm gonna take these people
showcase their love to you andthen I'm gonna you know make
things happen in their liveswhere it shows how deep that
love is and uh a lot of tearswere shed in this book a lot of
(23:40):
crying a lot of pacing aroundright here in this very living
room and I would wring my handsand be like and get up from my
keys and have to you know air upmy armpits.
I'm sorry but when you writeexcitedly like that you just you
know your body's feeling it andum I felt like that was the best
way to showcase what whatactually existed is by showing a
loss of it.
(24:01):
Um so I thought that waspowerful right when you started
reading Lynette's funny becausewhen you start reading I have no
idea what you're about to sayvery exciting and right when you
said this is it like I knew whoit was like my whole body just
went I know I know and my brainand my heart goes there and I
feel that scene and that was alot of it was fun to write
though.
(24:21):
I mean it's a challenge that'sreally cool to sit down and do.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
I was gonna ask you that so I was going to ask you
all the emotions that you wentthrough um how long did it take
you to write it was it easywriting about yourself actually
that part I would say is easy.
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
I get vulnerable pretty easy a lot of people ask
me that just how do you get sovulnerable and um I'll tell you
Lynette it's come with age andthe reason I pick that age quote
often is and people kind ofdon't believe me they think I'm
blowing smoke.
I am so happy getting older Ihave enjoyed aging it's been a
privilege I mean it's just I'vegotten wiser and more
comfortable with myself and Ithink a lot of women everyone I
(24:58):
talk to does this you know I getthis every time and I'm like and
I feel like we just were nottalking to each other in our 20s
and 30s.
We thought we couldn't share wethought we had to be strong
thought we had to go to work andleave all our crap at the house
you know that's just how you didit and that's how you function
that's how you succeeded.
And that's how we grew up and Ijust I feel like now I'm
learning that so many women feltexactly like I did.
(25:21):
No and had we just shared Iwouldn't have felt so alone you
know um so that's a wonderfulthing I always want to open up
and share about the aging and umGod what was your question?
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Come on I forgot I'm just listening to you because I
love this conversation because Iagree I completely agree I know
it's it's just about gettingolder.
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
I think it was like the characters and who I was
writing about but I think thereason that I want to share
about the aging is the more Italk to other women it's mostly
women um I think the women it'sit's easier to oh you asked how
it was easy to write that'sright it's easier to age and I
will say that the writing forthis reason because I feel like
we're coming into our own andwe're stepping into power that
(25:59):
we've we've just now realizedand we've had the whole time.
And and I'm not saying we'regetting mean and and you know
not taking care of our men andthose things.
I don't want to be all like I'mfeminist I'm not here to be a
team player but I'm here tovocalize how I really feel which
I haven't done for years andyears and I I should have but
that's my fault but I feel likeI can say these things now and
(26:21):
being vulnerable to me helps mewith those things.
When I release them and sharethem and people go yeah me too
and much worse I feel so muchbetter.
And I will tell you half thebook and the reason this is half
fiction because the beginningwas all me.
It's so easy to pour outLynette's just my life my
thought my words but what I didwith the second half of the book
and this is really cool aboutcruising this is what we call um
(26:43):
when you live on your sailboatand actually like you know go
around place to place you're acruiser and so there's a lot of
women cruisers out there thatare cool awesome women you can
imagine the kind of women thatget on a boat and decide to go
sailing are pretty ruggedamazing women and a lot of them
have been through life stuff Ican't even fathom.
I I don't even know how they getout of bed with smiles on their
(27:04):
faces the kinds of loss thatthey have suffered.
So I talk to them like in thelaundry room walking to the
grocery store and they tell methese things and I'm like oh my
gosh I have a a pretty storiedlife but it doesn't even
compare.
Which makes me feel so welcome,so humble and so half the other
half of the fiction book is fromother women cruisers that's
(27:24):
their story.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
Oh how cool so like let's I want to talk about like
yes the book but it's it's youhow how did you learn to forgive
and give grace because in thebook it's there is a lot of
forgiveness and a lot of uhKelly realizes oh you know my
dad wasn't always perfect my momwasn't always perfect but we're
(27:46):
gonna forgive and we're gonnalet go how how have you done
that in your life like mostpeople just want to hold on to
grudges and you hurt me andthere's no going back.
So what do you say to that?
SPEAKER_02 (28:00):
And I the the benefit for me and I think if
you have which I've held on togrudges for years and years and
years.
You know what I mean and Calliewas alone at all those college
years I hope you guys notice asyou read the book the reason
she's struggling and and is youknow hurting so badly is because
she's alone and she's holding agrudge like that's the biggest
thing she's holding on to alonein her house you know so I hope
(28:21):
you see that because I've donethat I've done that many many
times I have the benefit of mybrother and I will say that he
when we he and I talk about thepast and our childhood and stuff
he has such a better perspectivebecause he was a little bit
older you know just three yearsolder and you'll see in the book
several times that Jude actuallyeducates Callie of like no
that's not exactly how it wentdown you know I didn't I wasn't
(28:43):
actually ex whatever the thingis you know there was more to it
it was more complicated and Ithink if you can dive into those
situations it's a lot of what wetalked about about parents doing
things that upset you becausethose are grudges against your
parents are the ones you'regonna hold probably the biggest
and longest.
So if you can get in their headjust a little bit a little bit
of empathy to see what they weregoing through it just helps it
(29:06):
helps you forgive it helps yousay you know what I'm gonna make
some bad decisions too and whatI think is great about Callie is
when I don't think this givesanything away when she's in the
hospital bed towards the endbecause she starts in a hospital
bed so that's nothing but she'sthere and she sees her mom and
she was so judgmental of her momall of her younger years like oh
my God you made all these baddecisions blah blah blah she's
(29:28):
in a hospital bed broken downyou know about to face legal
charges you know and so she'sthe queen of bad decisions.
So you when you start screwingstuff up you have a lot of um
empathy you know for the theother decisions you judge so
poorly so that's too gettingolder you start making more
mistakes you realize hey thisain't so easy so that helps too
with forgiveness age helps a lotwith that for me it's
(29:50):
perspective and and time I guessis the way it works for me.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Have you had to do any type of therapy or is this
just kind of been something thatyou've been doing on your own
and and figuring out on your ownI would say Clovis was my
therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (30:05):
I poured into that book and um and I I have a lot
of friends who are psychologistsand and friends that have gone
to therapy and I I love it.
I think it's a wonderful thing.
I think anybody should talk totherapists at any time and it's
wonderful now that it's um liketelehealth you know you can do
it remotely which is great.
I haven't just yet but I'm notopposed at all and would love to
talk to anybody if I feel likeI'm struggling with something
(30:26):
and can't be vulnerable andshare like this.
But for me Clovis um a shortshare and it doesn't have to be
the center of anything but um inthe middle of writing at Lynette
my mom passed away and I didn'texpect it to happen and we were
kind of in the place in the bookwhere you see not in the best
place, you know, that I wish wecould have been somewhere
better.
(30:46):
But when you ask about therapy,you know what happens at the end
of the book how that that shiftof perspective and how Callie
sees her mom and what she thinksabout her mom.
Those are things that I wouldhave loved to have told my mom
in real life but I did get tosay them in the book.
So that's a very cool thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
I feel you I um yeah I haven't done therapy either I
was just asking because um Ifeel like when we're open books
and we're able just to talkopenly to me that's therapy.
And it is and when you talkopenly then people share and
then I get from everyone likeokay I'm not gonna do that but I
could take a little bit fromhere and um and similar my you
(31:27):
know my my dad passed away 13years ago and there was like you
know like how you describe kindof just me not understanding his
choices or you know the way hewas and yeah when they pass it's
too late.
It's too late.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
So yeah it's too late now you know and so it's
all the more reason today to belike you know what what is that
grudge really doing for me whatmental energy am I devoting to
that that I could just put downyeah yeah no that's true that's
true.
So what are you doing like nowyou've written Clovis you
shifted you know when did youshift like the um your practice
(32:06):
like when you became a uh wasthe defense lawyer working
versus yeah so um kind of coolstrokes and this will tell you
all the books so um I startedpracticing in 07 that's when I
graduated and did all that stuffand I met Philip in 11.
So in about 2011 I was like allright I'm getting out of this I
was kind of looking for a youknow light on the horizon.
(32:28):
And um so I decided to startworking remotely I left my firm
which was pretty surprising theyum they really didn't believe
that I was gonna leave and thereason I started working
remotely I'll tell you this is100% true is I kept telling them
like here's the day I'm gonnaleave it was August 13th I'll
still remember it 2013.
And I was like this is it I'mleaving I'm leaving they're like
okay oh sure and they keptgiving me cases and give me work
(32:50):
and I was like I kept doing itbut I thought okay my day's
coming and about a week beforeit they were like oh my gosh
you're really leaving I was likeyes so they were like well
you're gonna have to workremotely because we just gave
you all these cases and stuffand I was like that I can work
on a sailboat I think so Istarted working remotely and so
that's that's what started meworking remotely as a lawyer
(33:11):
which was I'm glad that happenedyou know that was a tough
transition.
It was scary it was painful butgosh now I have the platform to
work remotely as a lawyer and Idid not have that before that's
a huge asset.
So started traveling with Philipand um the writing side I just
started writing for fun um toPhilip actually I would write
him emails in the morning.
This is silly and he was likeyou're so great you should start
(33:32):
a blog so I started the blog sohave one will travel is the blog
it's been going now for goshlike 13 years.
And there I started writingarticles and then I cobbled
those into my sailing books.
So that there's like threesailing books which are wildly
funny.
That's just mainly mypersonality out there dealing
with everything that's happeningand I'm like holy crap what is
(33:54):
this rope and where does it go?
And I'm just trying to figuremyself out.
I love it and it's it's veryentertaining.
So those are just fun and veryeasy reads.
And then I wrote um there's awomen's fiction so it's called a
civil affair and that's sort ofa legal romance kind of thing
which is a very fun book.
And um so now I'm at Cloviswhich is the literary fiction
and first one I wrote and it'sdone very very well I'm excited.
(34:17):
It's got some awards and a niceKirkus review and um so I
started on the sequel and Austinis the name of the sequel and
it's about I would say like 90%done.
It's kind of exciting.
Yeah so when do you think we canread the book I know right I
think the fall of this yearbecause I have a lot of editing
you know you want to spend somegood time on editing and um and
(34:38):
I'll just be honest Philip and Iare going to uh Africa this
summer I was gonna ask I wasgonna ask on other travels okay
some travels so during thatmonth I will happily say I am
not doing anything with my bookI'm gonna be pet and elephant so
sorry y'all are gonna have towait.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
Wow so for a whole month wait are you sailing
there?
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
No I was gonna say oh my gosh so you're Africa for
a month how exciting we'reexcited about that I mean it's
like 21 days but I'm gonna callit a month going for it right so
excited any other like sailingsailing adventures that you guys
have so we have actually I'll behonest so our sailboat right now
(35:15):
is for sale so we're on a uminternational travel chapter so
we're um we want to do a lot ofskiing and Africa is a big one
and so we'll probably get amotorboat I think in the next
two or three years because wejust love being on the water
it's just so it's so amazing.
So we're we got the boat forsale because we want to do
Africa and I think Croatia isreally high on the list Alaska
(35:35):
things that we haven't been ableto do when you have the boat
it's very consuming.
It's kind of like your onlyhobby so now we have time to
kind of do different stuff whichis really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (35:43):
So that's so exciting.
I love to travel and now that mykids are getting older we're
traveling more and it's justfun.
I love it.
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
It's so good for kids and I will tell you travel
and my dad told me this all thetime it's the best educator.
Like you just see differentcultures you see the way people
live differently and I thinkchildren especially can see
cultures different than Americanculture you know that just
aren't so consumerism driven andyou get a lot more experience
and I just think that'swonderful.
So that's a great thing.
Keep going.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah um is there anything else I want can you
please send me the link or likesend me like hey hey the book is
out there to to buy because I dowant to read the sequel.
Yeah don't forget don't forgetthat please and because I really
I I really honestly I'm notblowing smoke up your ass or
anything it was a good it was itwas I enjoyed all the characters
(36:34):
I enjoyed the journey I was likewhere's the in the beginning
it's like okay where's thisgoing?
Because like you said it startsin a hospital bed and then it
goes back in time and I was likewow I couldn't I was just
constantly like okay what'sgonna happen now what's gonna
happen with Cal I'm so glad yousaid that because it's so
nerve-wracking for me I have totrust you so much as the reader
to both entertain you but notbeat you over the head you know
(36:55):
that's such a fine game to playwith it was good I recommend
everybody go buy Clovis and heywho say that again just go by
Clovis yeah go buy Clovis andand read this was my pleasure
thank you so much for talkingtoday I appreciate I appreciate
you coming on and can you comeon when the sequel comes out and
we can talk about that oh goshabsolutely 100% absolutely okay
(37:18):
I'll email you directly and belike all right it's time okay no
for real let's do it for realyou kidding I'll need all the
promotion I can get I hopeyou're for real I am for real I
am for real I love talking topeople that are just doing big
things and that's what it soundslike you're doing we're trying
we're it's fun it's all aboutjust putting the stories out
there I I believe in storiesyeah and I believe in connecting
(37:40):
people this is a good one it'sabout I mean it's even about
identity and like figuring outwho you are as a person.
So it's about so much so manythings loyalty oh man yeah a lot
of everything aging yeah agingit's great it's great so thank
you good luck with this next onethis one is fabulous and I hope
(38:01):
you get lots of readers hope andlots of your mouth the readers'
ears yeah thank you it was mypleasure Annie and we'll talk
soon I'll leave you all withthis life is a paradox in order
to heal you must hurt in orderto love you must break open in
order to have peace you mustface chaos never regret any
(38:26):
experience in your life becauseit is always meant to bring you
balance the light always followsthank you so much for listening
to Virago247.
If you haven't done so alreadygo ahead and hit that subscribe
button and please give us fivestar ratings.
(38:46):
Also don't forget to follow uson Instagram at Virago24
underscore seven and on Facebookat Virago24 slash seven and just
connect with us and share yourstory we'd love to hear from
you.
Some stories don't just unfold, they unravel layer
by layer, truth by truth, untilyou're left staring at the parts
of yourself that you've tried tooutrun.
Today's guest is someone whounderstands that kind of
reckoning intimately.
I'm joined by Annie Dyke, theauthor, attorney, sailor, and
(00:21):
storyteller whose novel Clovisis as raw as it is unflinching.
Through her work, she exploresthe messy intersections of
trauma, identity, and what itreally means to come of age when
life doesn't give you cleanlines or easy answers.
In this conversation, we'rediving into the emotional
(00:42):
undercurrents of her writing,the personal truth is behind
Clovis, and what it takes toface your past without losing
yourself in it.
Let's get into it.
Hi, I am your host, LeonetteTalley, and you are listening to
Virago 24-7.
(01:02):
Virago is Latin for femalewarrior, and 24-7 is for all
day, every day.
Virago 24-7 is a weekly podcastthat brings diverse women
together to talk about life andour experiences in this world.
We share our views on self-love,mental health, marriage,
children, friendships, andreally anything that needs to be
talked about.
(01:23):
Here you will find everydaygrowth, everyday healing with
everyday warriors.
(01:46):
You look great.
So it's good to meet you, Annie.
You too.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, I'm so happy to have you.
Um, so we have Annie Dyke onwith us on Virago 24-7.
And you're on here.
You have a lot of titles, butyou're on here mainly because I
read your book.
Um it's called Clovis.
(02:06):
Yes.
And for the past month I've beenreading that book, and I really
like it.
Yeah, what do you think?
I really like it.
I'm the kind of person that Ilike I like to read things about
relationships and just everydaylife.
And I'm not a sci-fi person oryou know, big like random, just
(02:27):
fake worlds.
Like these are real people withreal feelings and emotions and
why they do what they do.
And so I did, I loved it.
I really, really did.
It's it's my genre, it's thekind of stuff that I like.
So I am so thrilled to hear thatbecause mine is definitely
character driven.
SPEAKER_02 (02:43):
I am um it gets plot heavy towards the end, but in
the beginning, you just reallyneed to care about these
characters, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (02:50):
Like you lay the foundation.
So I I was trying to figure outwhere we should start because
you're also a lawyer, yeah.
And you're also a sailor.
I saw I saw that you sailed.
Um, but let's start.
We'll get to all of that, but Ido want to start because we are
talking about the book, and itis your first fiction book,
(03:10):
correct?
It's my first literary fiction.
Okay, literary fiction.
I've written one other fictionbook.
Okay.
And so let's let's uh let thelisteners know like what it's
about and like lay thefoundation for that because I do
have a lot of questions aboutwhat's fiction and what is like
based on your life.
Because I know you're that's mymain question.
Yeah.
So many people ask me that one,don't worry.
SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (03:33):
So yeah, so Clovis is um, it's a great coming of
age, and it's uh a good bit mystory.
It's not like autobiographicalor memoir, but a lot of truth
there for sure.
Um, you're gonna follow Callie,who is um not so quietly me.
That's the central character,um, from about age six to age
30.
And you're gonna go through herrelationships with her parents,
(03:56):
how they evolve, break up, comeback together.
Her sibling relationship ishuge.
And you're just gonna see anemotional journey from the
viewpoint of someone that I hopea lot of people relate to, a
woman who is, you know,initially a girl, a young woman
who, you know, struggles so hardand tries for everybody in her
family to the point of breaking,you know, which we often all do,
(04:18):
and watch this woman evolve andfirst run away from her roots
and then realize how importantthey are and embrace them
towards the end.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Nice.
So you are from there.
And the the book, you know,there's a lot of different
characters and relationships.
And um what is it from yourbackground that want like made
you want to write this book?
Like what what were yourexperiences in Clovis?
SPEAKER_02 (04:47):
Yeah, and definitely the the reason for starting this
book was childhood stories, andI've told everyone that it's
just I my childhood was um, youknow, a little bit strained and
tortured, you'll see, with a lotof things that went on, but it
was also so rich in that Iexperienced so much, probably
because my parents were divorcedand I was sort of pulled all
over the nation dealing withfamily issues, but it also, you
(05:10):
know, expanded my world.
It blew it up threefold.
And that was really cool.
I've always wanted to sharethat.
And also I think the resourcesmy parents had were very minimal
compared to what you know, a lotof kids have these days, and the
fun and creativity and things wewere able to capture and create
just with less money andresources.
I've always wanted to share thatbecause I think I think kids
(05:33):
these days, I wish they had moreof an eclectic upbringing,
outside adventure, skinningtheir knees, dirt under their
fingernails, you know, and so Ialways want to share stories
like that.
And the um the maxi pad story,Lena, if you remember that one.
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Thank you.
Always use that.
SPEAKER_02 (05:48):
That's a fun one.
So that's just a prototypicalexample of that.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
So that really that really happened.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (05:54):
Yeah.
Oh, that's 100% true.
100% true.
SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
I love that.
That's hilarious.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (06:00):
So that's see, that's not a rumor.
I could share that one briefly.
But I was trying to show,showcase, I really wanted to
highlight my parents.
Um, I mean, a lot of my familymembers, my brother,
essentially, he's the main maincharacter.
But I wanted to put a flashlighton both of them, my parents, my
mother and father, good and bad,you know, their flaws, their
(06:21):
depth, their um the joy theybrought me, but then also the
pain, the lessons, you know.
And to do that, I felt likethese stories would really help
because the MaxiPad story is agreat example of it's silly,
it's funny, it's something mydad did in an odd moment where
he's dealing with a little babygirl.
I mean, a cowboy doesn't reallyknow what to do with that and
which way to hold it upside downor right side up.
(06:43):
You know, he was always like,What do you want, babes?
Am I supposed to touch that?
And I'm like, get in there, dad.
But uh, he was great and that hetried, you know, and he was
resourceful.
And um, so there's dark elementsto that story in that we're
divorced, and my brother and Iwere with my dad, and things are
looking a little like I don'tknow if our teeth are gonna get
brushed and we're gonna go tobed on time, but we're gonna
have an adventure and we'regonna have an amazing,
(07:05):
irreparable, you know, momentthat just can't be recreated.
And I wanted to capture thosethings and that kind of
childhood, the honesty of thatkind of childhood.
unknown (07:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:14):
And then there was um your your mom, and that's a
complicated relationship aswell.
And I love how you, you know,Callie is the main character,
and and a lot of the story is inher voice, but then there are
chapters where you use the othervoices, and it's fascinating to
me how, you know, we aschildren, because I come from
(07:38):
similar background where it'sjust kind of not stable and
young parents and they don'tknow what they're doing.
And now that I'm old, yeah, nowthat I'm older, I'm like, okay,
you you forgive and you and yougive grace and all of that.
So I love that you get in themind of the characters, like you
see Callie's point of view, butthen you see the parents' point
of view and what they arethinking.
(08:00):
And you know, it may not alwaysmake sense.
It's like, well, you didn't haveto handle it that way, but for
them, it made sense.
Like it's their I did, Iappreciated um getting into the
minds of the other charactersand what their thoughts were.
Um I'm glad you really lovethat.
That's a that was a really coolelement.
Um, also, like a lot of thethemes that stood out to me were
(08:21):
just like perseverance andresilience and and um
forgiveness and and loss andgrief.
And so what have you learnedfrom like living this life in
Clovis?
Like what made you because Ifeel I I was like, I hope she's
Cali.
I hope she's Cali because Ireally love it.
(08:42):
I love I love how like strong, Ilove strong women.
What what is it inside of youthat just keeps going and keeps
persevering?
SPEAKER_02 (08:53):
Great.
And those are both kind of twoquestions, so many things are
running through my head.
I think a lot of it is it's mymom and my dad.
My dad, you'll see in the book,he was always joy in the face of
to me as a kid, even kind ofinsurmountable grief and sorrow.
You know, he was just he wouldsing, he had songs, he was the
dancing cowboy is what it kindof felt like.
(09:13):
And he always taught me thatthat you can choose how you
respond to a situation.
And um, you asked me to, so Iwill, which is great.
My dad, there's a passage in thebook that I thought that'd be
really fun to share.
Um, and this is um, you talkedabout the other voices too, so
this plays in really well totalk about that briefly.
I did I wrote the whole bookfirst in first person.
So it was Callie, which is me,and it was totally her, and it
(09:35):
was just stream of consciousnessand flew out of me, Lynette.
This book was like three timeslonger when I started.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
It was um, I don't know if youwrite much or kind of in that
world, it was uh 255,000 words,which about 70,000 is one book.
unknown (09:52):
Wow.
SPEAKER_00 (09:53):
Well, you had a lot to say, and I'm sure a lot of
experiences, yes.
SPEAKER_02 (09:57):
A lot to say.
But what a cool, a cool thingwhen I did the big editing
project, which was amazing andfun for me, it was uh it was an
awesome, awesome experience.
My editor, um, I just had a fewvoices, not very many.
It was like mom, dad, and maybeJude, just a couple times at the
very end.
And he was like, for whateverreason, you have a knack for
this.
Like you sounded like acompletely different person,
(10:18):
which totally threw me away.
But that was really cool.
So I did a couple chapters therein different voices, like you
said.
So you get to hear from theother characters in the book
from their point of view.
Because to me, one of the hugethings of the book, um, the
other passage I have is it isabout point of view.
As a child, I'm gonna see my momin a very immature and you know,
(10:38):
adolescent way.
I'm gonna see her through eyesthat are righteous, and I think
I'm so right and I knoweverything.
And I'm gonna judge her for herdecisions and what I think is
poor decisions, you know?
And so, point of view is superimportant.
So, like you said, I want you toget in the mind of the parent
and see what they were dealingwith and what they had going on.
Maybe it didn't make sense toyou as the kid on the other
(11:00):
side, but if you get in theirhead, maybe you'll understand,
right?
So, one passage here, this isfrom my dad, and he's talking to
me, Callie, in a letter.
And my dad has always taught methis from the beginning.
I this is from when we werechildren.
It's about aging.
And so he's telling me, Callie,it's actually a peaceful feeling
growing older, I have found.
It calms you, gives you footing,and makes you see outcomes
(11:20):
developing early on.
Bad decisions and bad peoplebecome easier to spot.
Age also makes you aware thatthings are always constantly
changing, and that's okay.
Necessary even.
It's a strange but humbling andcomforting feeling that you're
not nearly as in control as youwould like to be, babes, and
that's okay.
That's just straight up what wecall it, cowboy wisdom from my
(11:42):
dad.
SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
So it's so I love that.
It's so funny because you know,I read the book and there there
were two things that stood out.
The one that I want to readlater, and then literally that
one.
Like, no lie.
Oh, really?
No lie, no lie.
I picked it, um, I wasn't, I Iactually screenshotted it too.
I screenshot it two paragraphs,another one, and then that one.
(12:05):
So it's funny that you readthat.
SPEAKER_02 (12:06):
Wow, that needs to be on my tombstone because other
people have picked that one too.
SPEAKER_00 (12:10):
So really, it's just um, I I love lessons.
I love like I love words ofencouragement, life lessons.
And so that's what that meant tome when I read it.
Um, so Callie, you know, we wesee her at the beginning at a
young age and like all thestruggles, and then she becomes
(12:31):
a career woman and becomes alawyer, which is where lawyer
comes in.
So, what was it that made youwant to be a lawyer?
And are you still practicing?
SPEAKER_02 (12:43):
I I so I am I am practicing.
I don't represent clients,particularly me.
So I usually work for otherlawyers.
Kind of lawyers tap me to dotheir briefwriting and motion
practice and all that stuff.
Um, so I'm kind of a little, I'mactive, but a little behind the
scenes, which I like.
So I'm not front row and in thejury trials, like front and
center.
I do a lot of the support workbehind the scenes, which is
(13:04):
great, Lynette.
And the reason I structured itthat way is so that I could
travel.
You know, I could work remotelyand use this law degree to make
money to write and travel.
That would be the end goal ofall of this.
But um, I would say being alawyer is you'll see in the
book, it's very true to form,especially my childhood years.
My brother, my brother's actualname is John.
(13:24):
Um, but same thing.
We're three years apart.
He was always teaching me, um,educating me.
And we both knew that that wasour ticket out of Clovis.
We both felt that way.
And just as kids do, we werelike, I'm gonna be a doctor, I'm
gonna be a lawyer, you know,anything that had the big
salary.
I mean, I hate to say it, butthat's what we're like, yeah,
whatever gets us out of here.
We're like shooting harpoonguns, you know, just hoping
(13:46):
it'll stick.
And um, we're good with words.
My brother and I, you know, wewrote a lot growing up.
I even have I was writing backthen, little um, I used to do
newsletters, like Sweet ValleyHigh kind of newsletters.
SPEAKER_00 (13:57):
Oh, I read all those books.
SPEAKER_02 (14:00):
I love those books, love those books.
So I would do that as a kid.
I was always into words andwriting.
I was like on the journal teamand the high school yearbook and
all that stuff, you know.
And so um, lawyer just was agood fit.
I knew words were a skill forme.
So, you know, reading, writing,I just went with lawyer, but I I
will say when I startedpracticing, you know, you go
(14:21):
through law school and the barexam and all that.
When I started, I was on thedefense side, um, just like
Callie is in the book, uminsurance defense.
And I did not love thatpractice.
When you get deep into that andfeel what defending corporations
feels like and can be like, andI'm proud of myself for stepping
away from that.
That was not the law that Iwanted to practice for the rest
(14:43):
of my life.
And now I work on the plaintiffside, helping, you know, sort of
small firms go after the bigdogs, and that feels so much
better.
I love that stuff.
So I do love it.
I still love doing that, andyou'll find it's kind of cool,
it's coming out later.
But in the sequel to Clovis,which I'm working on now, is a
huge legal plot.
So Callie's like taking down thebad guys and stuff.
(15:04):
So that's happening.
SPEAKER_00 (15:05):
Oh, good for you.
Oh, okay.
I can't wait to read that one.
Good for you.
Yeah.
Um, I I love that.
And so, where does sailing comefrom?
Because I I've read that youhave written books about
sailing.
Is that true?
Okay, so where does that comeinto your life?
SPEAKER_02 (15:22):
It crashed into my world about like you're saying
it.
Like I did not see sailingcoming.
What happened was, as I shouldput it, is I met I met a boy.
You know how these thingshappen.
I was working in um Mobile,Alabama, which is pretty far
south of Alabama, so it's prettyclose to Pensacola, Florida,
which is where I'm at now.
(15:42):
And um just started hanging outwith some friends who are in
Pensacola.
And one night, this is aterrible story, but I'm gonna
tell it.
A good friend of mine's like,hey girl, come to this bar.
I got a really cute guy I wantyou to meet.
I'm like, okay, all right.
And so I come to Pensacola, andshe points him out, and it's
Philip, my partner now, who I'mwith and have been with now,
don't tell the world, but like15 years.
(16:03):
So I mean, we're we're set.
Um, but I met him that night,and I'm telling you, Lynette, he
was talking about I'm gonna geton a boat and cruise around the
world.
And I was like, Holy crap, thatsounds amazing.
I'm coming.
And I kind of told him thatjokingly, and it's been a
hundred percent true.
SPEAKER_00 (16:19):
So that was all Philip was was he was that's
funny.
My husband's name is Philip.
Oh was he sailing before that,or he's just like, I'm gonna
sail and we're gonna go.
SPEAKER_02 (16:32):
So an amazing, it's a really cool story.
And the reason, a lot of thereason that I am the way I am
now, very um people see me aslike adventurous and willing to
just try all these differentcareers and go travel the world.
And a lot of that is because ofPhilip, and I will tell you
because he just came to me as acompletely fresh human.
I was so used to men, and I hateto say, but they were just
(16:55):
hunting, golf fish, and that'sjust what they were devoted to.
It's what they love, which isgreat, awesome.
I'm not, and I just wanted more,I wanted to do more and see
more.
And so Philip presented withthat.
Like, I'm gonna get on a boatand sail around the world.
His actual background is um,he's a Marine, he was in the
Marines, and um, very cool storythere, and that he wanted to do
(17:15):
that as a very young age, atlike age six, and wrote the
Marines.
Like, I'd love to be a part, andthey're like, We want you to get
your education first, so go tohigh school.
And his mom still has theletter, it's a whole thing.
That is so he's a very yeah,it's a neat story.
He's a very driven person too,and um, so he is in the Marines,
and then he went to law schooland he um had sailed some with
(17:36):
his uncle um just aroundPensacola Bay.
Not the sailing we're talkingabout is like live on your boat,
like you know, you're on theboat and you go, you know,
across oceans and long passages.
That's the kind of sailing hewas talking about, which he had
not done.
Um, because you kind of have tofind the right person to do that
with, you know.
Um, but when he met me, hisuncle, who was very dear to him,
who got him into sailing, was inthe middle of like prostate
(18:00):
cancer and passing away.
And so Philip was very much inthe mindset of the clock is
ticking.
I am serious to this sailingdream.
I'm committed.
And so kind of meeting me inthat moment, and I was fresh off
divorce.
I wanted fun, change,excitement.
We just kind of collided at theright moment.
And so he was serious, I wasserious.
We started cruising about a yearor two after that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
How awesome! So tell me, I love to travel, but yeah,
and I love the ocean, but beingin it, like I like to look at
it, but being in the oceanterrifies me.
How how like where have yougone?
Like what adventures have youbeen on?
SPEAKER_02 (18:37):
Oh my god, we've had such a great time.
I'm so glad you're asking aboutthis.
So we started, of course, inPennsylvania, Florida, you know,
and um uh across the Gulf ofMexico is that can be an arduous
passage.
Like, don't let the ocean, youknow, fool you that it's the
only thing out there that cankick your butt.
Yeah, the Gulf of Mexico ishuge.
Um, so it's big.
Uh so we would do that a coupletimes to just kind of start.
(18:59):
And then we um in 2016 we didCuba, which was the coolest
thing we've ever done.
Hands down, Philip and I willnever regret having done that.
It just opened.
So we did that, which wasamazing, and then we've done the
Bahamas a lot several times, andwe've crossed um on other boats,
not our boat, but we've crossedover the Atlantic to France and
then from France back to the tothe BBIs and USBIs.
(19:22):
So we've done the AtlanticCircle, which is cool.
Um, you're asking though aboutbeing out there.
I will say, and I've told a lotof people this, I'm more scared,
Lynette, on the interstate in avehicle going 80 miles an hour
than in a boat.
And I can assure you, I've I'venever feared for my life out
there as much as I do every dayin just regular traffic because
everything goes so slow.
(19:43):
I mean, the fastest you're gonnago on a sailboat, our boat,
which is an even a prettyhigh-end boat, is like six miles
an hour.
unknown (19:50):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_02 (19:51):
Okay.
You're going, I mean, maybeeight or nine if you're lucky
and the wind's great and you'rejust really cooking, you're
cooking at eight miles an hour.
You're flying with that.
I mean, whoa, big deal.
So you're going really slow.
I mean, in the ocean.
That speed is scary in a marinabecause you're gonna hit
everything coming in, but youknow, in the ocean, mainly the
things that are gonna get youout there is um it's
(20:12):
psychological.
Like you're gonna start thinkingabout the things in your life
you've wanted to change,regrets, people you've wanted to
say things to that.
You haven't, that's what willstart eating at you.
You're really in a battle withyourself.
Oh wow, it's the biggest thing Ican say, which sometimes is the
worst battle.
Some people really struggle outthere, they do not like being
alone.
Yeah, I do.
I like that that's so true.
SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
I like being alone.
I can be by myself.
Me too.
Yeah, I don't I haveconversations with people about
that a lot.
Like people that have to staybusy, busy, busy, busy and do
this and do that.
It's like, hmm, there'ssomething going on that you just
can't sit still and be byyourself.
Yeah, yeah.
They start to buzz out out thereand they they kind of lose it.
I want to read, um, since we'retalking about thinking, the the
(20:57):
one passage that I wanted toread because you know, I've I've
experienced death and and lossand and that.
And these this little paragraphhere, I was like, okay, it's
something that I just mostpeople should be thinking about
these things.
So it says, um, this is it.
I have to wonder if I did enoughwith my time here.
(21:18):
Did I touch people?
Did I make them feel loved?
Should I have broken my promiseto Rachel and reached out?
Should I have tried to be afather to that little girl?
And did I not because I wasscared or because I thought it
was the right thing to do?
Did I show Levi enough love?
Um, the amount he deserved.
Did I make Hallie strong enough?
(21:39):
Did I teach her enough?
I'll never know.
And I don't want to keep readingbecause it might give some
things away.
And and I I love those questionsbecause since I've been doing
this podcast, that's the kind ofstuff that like comes up with
with a lot of conversations.
It's like, what are we doing?
What's our purpose?
Like what why are we here?
(22:00):
here, what am I leaving?
And I I really, really, reallyliked that.
So I wanted to share um thatwhat from the book with all the
care first of all, before wewhat are the what characters are
are all they are all of themreal or some of them made up?
SPEAKER_02 (22:21):
Very few made up.
But um I get so Levi is my firstcompletely fictional character,
which I was very proud of him.
I love him.
But he was my creation.
Mariah's real Jay's real Jude,mom, dad, all the all of it.
SPEAKER_00 (22:34):
And all the stories are real.
SPEAKER_02 (22:36):
I would say I would say for the most part when I get
to college when Callie getsabout in college level, that's
when things start to turn tofiction.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Um with with that with that um is that something
with what I just read is thatsomething that happened I'm
trying not I'm trying not to Iknow I know you're doing you're
doing great.
SPEAKER_02 (22:59):
I think the best way to answer is um is no thankfully
but my goal in all this and inany book I write for me to
showcase love I feel like youhave to lose it.
You know you have it has to betaken away at some point.
You know the person leaves yourlife or they move to a different
place or they pass away or youknow you have to lose that love
(23:20):
in order to understand what youhad you know and I was I was
nervous to do that in thebeginning I'll tell you Lynette
because I was like oh man whatI'm gonna take these people
showcase their love to you andthen I'm gonna you know make
things happen in their liveswhere it shows how deep that
love is and uh a lot of tearswere shed in this book a lot of
(23:40):
crying a lot of pacing aroundright here in this very living
room and I would wring my handsand be like and get up from my
keys and have to you know air upmy armpits.
I'm sorry but when you writeexcitedly like that you just you
know your body's feeling it andum I felt like that was the best
way to showcase what whatactually existed is by showing a
loss of it.
(24:01):
Um so I thought that waspowerful right when you started
reading Lynette's funny becausewhen you start reading I have no
idea what you're about to sayvery exciting and right when you
said this is it like I knew whoit was like my whole body just
went I know I know and my brainand my heart goes there and I
feel that scene and that was alot of it was fun to write
though.
(24:21):
I mean it's a challenge that'sreally cool to sit down and do.
SPEAKER_00 (24:24):
I was gonna ask you that so I was going to ask you
all the emotions that you wentthrough um how long did it take
you to write it was it easywriting about yourself actually
that part I would say is easy.
SPEAKER_02 (24:36):
I get vulnerable pretty easy a lot of people ask
me that just how do you get sovulnerable and um I'll tell you
Lynette it's come with age andthe reason I pick that age quote
often is and people kind ofdon't believe me they think I'm
blowing smoke.
I am so happy getting older Ihave enjoyed aging it's been a
privilege I mean it's just I'vegotten wiser and more
comfortable with myself and Ithink a lot of women everyone I
(24:58):
talk to does this you know I getthis every time and I'm like and
I feel like we just were nottalking to each other in our 20s
and 30s.
We thought we couldn't share wethought we had to be strong
thought we had to go to work andleave all our crap at the house
you know that's just how you didit and that's how you function
that's how you succeeded.
And that's how we grew up and Ijust I feel like now I'm
learning that so many women feltexactly like I did.
(25:21):
No and had we just shared Iwouldn't have felt so alone you
know um so that's a wonderfulthing I always want to open up
and share about the aging and umGod what was your question?
SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Come on I forgot I'm just listening to you because I
love this conversation because Iagree I completely agree I know
it's it's just about gettingolder.
SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
I think it was like the characters and who I was
writing about but I think thereason that I want to share
about the aging is the more Italk to other women it's mostly
women um I think the women it'sit's easier to oh you asked how
it was easy to write that'sright it's easier to age and I
will say that the writing forthis reason because I feel like
we're coming into our own andwe're stepping into power that
(25:59):
we've we've just now realizedand we've had the whole time.
And and I'm not saying we'regetting mean and and you know
not taking care of our men andthose things.
I don't want to be all like I'mfeminist I'm not here to be a
team player but I'm here tovocalize how I really feel which
I haven't done for years andyears and I I should have but
that's my fault but I feel likeI can say these things now and
(26:21):
being vulnerable to me helps mewith those things.
When I release them and sharethem and people go yeah me too
and much worse I feel so muchbetter.
And I will tell you half thebook and the reason this is half
fiction because the beginningwas all me.
It's so easy to pour outLynette's just my life my
thought my words but what I didwith the second half of the book
and this is really cool aboutcruising this is what we call um
(26:43):
when you live on your sailboatand actually like you know go
around place to place you're acruiser and so there's a lot of
women cruisers out there thatare cool awesome women you can
imagine the kind of women thatget on a boat and decide to go
sailing are pretty ruggedamazing women and a lot of them
have been through life stuff Ican't even fathom.
I I don't even know how they getout of bed with smiles on their
(27:04):
faces the kinds of loss thatthey have suffered.
So I talk to them like in thelaundry room walking to the
grocery store and they tell methese things and I'm like oh my
gosh I have a a pretty storiedlife but it doesn't even
compare.
Which makes me feel so welcome,so humble and so half the other
half of the fiction book is fromother women cruisers that's
(27:24):
their story.
SPEAKER_00 (27:25):
Oh how cool so like let's I want to talk about like
yes the book but it's it's youhow how did you learn to forgive
and give grace because in thebook it's there is a lot of
forgiveness and a lot of uhKelly realizes oh you know my
dad wasn't always perfect my momwasn't always perfect but we're
(27:46):
gonna forgive and we're gonnalet go how how have you done
that in your life like mostpeople just want to hold on to
grudges and you hurt me andthere's no going back.
So what do you say to that?
SPEAKER_02 (28:00):
And I the the benefit for me and I think if
you have which I've held on togrudges for years and years and
years.
You know what I mean and Calliewas alone at all those college
years I hope you guys notice asyou read the book the reason
she's struggling and and is youknow hurting so badly is because
she's alone and she's holding agrudge like that's the biggest
thing she's holding on to alonein her house you know so I hope
(28:21):
you see that because I've donethat I've done that many many
times I have the benefit of mybrother and I will say that he
when we he and I talk about thepast and our childhood and stuff
he has such a better perspectivebecause he was a little bit
older you know just three yearsolder and you'll see in the book
several times that Jude actuallyeducates Callie of like no
that's not exactly how it wentdown you know I didn't I wasn't
(28:43):
actually ex whatever the thingis you know there was more to it
it was more complicated and Ithink if you can dive into those
situations it's a lot of what wetalked about about parents doing
things that upset you becausethose are grudges against your
parents are the ones you'regonna hold probably the biggest
and longest.
So if you can get in their headjust a little bit a little bit
of empathy to see what they weregoing through it just helps it
(29:06):
helps you forgive it helps yousay you know what I'm gonna make
some bad decisions too and whatI think is great about Callie is
when I don't think this givesanything away when she's in the
hospital bed towards the endbecause she starts in a hospital
bed so that's nothing but she'sthere and she sees her mom and
she was so judgmental of her momall of her younger years like oh
my God you made all these baddecisions blah blah blah she's
(29:28):
in a hospital bed broken downyou know about to face legal
charges you know and so she'sthe queen of bad decisions.
So you when you start screwingstuff up you have a lot of um
empathy you know for the theother decisions you judge so
poorly so that's too gettingolder you start making more
mistakes you realize hey thisain't so easy so that helps too
with forgiveness age helps a lotwith that for me it's
(29:50):
perspective and and time I guessis the way it works for me.
SPEAKER_00 (29:54):
Have you had to do any type of therapy or is this
just kind of been something thatyou've been doing on your own
and and figuring out on your ownI would say Clovis was my
therapy.
SPEAKER_02 (30:05):
I poured into that book and um and I I have a lot
of friends who are psychologistsand and friends that have gone
to therapy and I I love it.
I think it's a wonderful thing.
I think anybody should talk totherapists at any time and it's
wonderful now that it's um liketelehealth you know you can do
it remotely which is great.
I haven't just yet but I'm notopposed at all and would love to
talk to anybody if I feel likeI'm struggling with something
(30:26):
and can't be vulnerable andshare like this.
But for me Clovis um a shortshare and it doesn't have to be
the center of anything but um inthe middle of writing at Lynette
my mom passed away and I didn'texpect it to happen and we were
kind of in the place in the bookwhere you see not in the best
place, you know, that I wish wecould have been somewhere
better.
(30:46):
But when you ask about therapy,you know what happens at the end
of the book how that that shiftof perspective and how Callie
sees her mom and what she thinksabout her mom.
Those are things that I wouldhave loved to have told my mom
in real life but I did get tosay them in the book.
So that's a very cool thing.
SPEAKER_00 (31:03):
I feel you I um yeah I haven't done therapy either I
was just asking because um Ifeel like when we're open books
and we're able just to talkopenly to me that's therapy.
And it is and when you talkopenly then people share and
then I get from everyone likeokay I'm not gonna do that but I
could take a little bit fromhere and um and similar my you
(31:27):
know my my dad passed away 13years ago and there was like you
know like how you describe kindof just me not understanding his
choices or you know the way hewas and yeah when they pass it's
too late.
It's too late.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
So yeah it's too late now you know and so it's
all the more reason today to belike you know what what is that
grudge really doing for me whatmental energy am I devoting to
that that I could just put downyeah yeah no that's true that's
true.
So what are you doing like nowyou've written Clovis you
shifted you know when did youshift like the um your practice
(32:06):
like when you became a uh wasthe defense lawyer working
versus yeah so um kind of coolstrokes and this will tell you
all the books so um I startedpracticing in 07 that's when I
graduated and did all that stuffand I met Philip in 11.
So in about 2011 I was like allright I'm getting out of this I
was kind of looking for a youknow light on the horizon.
(32:28):
And um so I decided to startworking remotely I left my firm
which was pretty surprising theyum they really didn't believe
that I was gonna leave and thereason I started working
remotely I'll tell you this is100% true is I kept telling them
like here's the day I'm gonnaleave it was August 13th I'll
still remember it 2013.
And I was like this is it I'mleaving I'm leaving they're like
okay oh sure and they keptgiving me cases and give me work
(32:50):
and I was like I kept doing itbut I thought okay my day's
coming and about a week beforeit they were like oh my gosh
you're really leaving I was likeyes so they were like well
you're gonna have to workremotely because we just gave
you all these cases and stuffand I was like that I can work
on a sailboat I think so Istarted working remotely and so
that's that's what started meworking remotely as a lawyer
(33:11):
which was I'm glad that happenedyou know that was a tough
transition.
It was scary it was painful butgosh now I have the platform to
work remotely as a lawyer and Idid not have that before that's
a huge asset.
So started traveling with Philipand um the writing side I just
started writing for fun um toPhilip actually I would write
him emails in the morning.
This is silly and he was likeyou're so great you should start
(33:32):
a blog so I started the blog sohave one will travel is the blog
it's been going now for goshlike 13 years.
And there I started writingarticles and then I cobbled
those into my sailing books.
So that there's like threesailing books which are wildly
funny.
That's just mainly mypersonality out there dealing
with everything that's happeningand I'm like holy crap what is
(33:54):
this rope and where does it go?
And I'm just trying to figuremyself out.
I love it and it's it's veryentertaining.
So those are just fun and veryeasy reads.
And then I wrote um there's awomen's fiction so it's called a
civil affair and that's sort ofa legal romance kind of thing
which is a very fun book.
And um so now I'm at Cloviswhich is the literary fiction
and first one I wrote and it'sdone very very well I'm excited.
(34:17):
It's got some awards and a niceKirkus review and um so I
started on the sequel and Austinis the name of the sequel and
it's about I would say like 90%done.
It's kind of exciting.
Yeah so when do you think we canread the book I know right I
think the fall of this yearbecause I have a lot of editing
you know you want to spend somegood time on editing and um and
(34:38):
I'll just be honest Philip and Iare going to uh Africa this
summer I was gonna ask I wasgonna ask on other travels okay
some travels so during thatmonth I will happily say I am
not doing anything with my bookI'm gonna be pet and elephant so
sorry y'all are gonna have towait.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
Wow so for a whole month wait are you sailing
there?
SPEAKER_02 (34:55):
No I was gonna say oh my gosh so you're Africa for
a month how exciting we'reexcited about that I mean it's
like 21 days but I'm gonna callit a month going for it right so
excited any other like sailingsailing adventures that you guys
have so we have actually I'll behonest so our sailboat right now
(35:15):
is for sale so we're on a uminternational travel chapter so
we're um we want to do a lot ofskiing and Africa is a big one
and so we'll probably get amotorboat I think in the next
two or three years because wejust love being on the water
it's just so it's so amazing.
So we're we got the boat forsale because we want to do
Africa and I think Croatia isreally high on the list Alaska
(35:35):
things that we haven't been ableto do when you have the boat
it's very consuming.
It's kind of like your onlyhobby so now we have time to
kind of do different stuff whichis really cool.
SPEAKER_00 (35:43):
So that's so exciting.
I love to travel and now that mykids are getting older we're
traveling more and it's justfun.
I love it.
I love it.
SPEAKER_02 (35:52):
It's so good for kids and I will tell you travel
and my dad told me this all thetime it's the best educator.
Like you just see differentcultures you see the way people
live differently and I thinkchildren especially can see
cultures different than Americanculture you know that just
aren't so consumerism driven andyou get a lot more experience
and I just think that'swonderful.
So that's a great thing.
Keep going.
SPEAKER_00 (36:12):
Yeah um is there anything else I want can you
please send me the link or likesend me like hey hey the book is
out there to to buy because I dowant to read the sequel.
Yeah don't forget don't forgetthat please and because I really
I I really honestly I'm notblowing smoke up your ass or
anything it was a good it was itwas I enjoyed all the characters
(36:34):
I enjoyed the journey I was likewhere's the in the beginning
it's like okay where's thisgoing?
Because like you said it startsin a hospital bed and then it
goes back in time and I was likewow I couldn't I was just
constantly like okay what'sgonna happen now what's gonna
happen with Cal I'm so glad yousaid that because it's so
nerve-wracking for me I have totrust you so much as the reader
to both entertain you but notbeat you over the head you know
(36:55):
that's such a fine game to playwith it was good I recommend
everybody go buy Clovis and heywho say that again just go by
Clovis yeah go buy Clovis andand read this was my pleasure
thank you so much for talkingtoday I appreciate I appreciate
you coming on and can you comeon when the sequel comes out and
we can talk about that oh goshabsolutely 100% absolutely okay
(37:18):
I'll email you directly and belike all right it's time okay no
for real let's do it for realyou kidding I'll need all the
promotion I can get I hopeyou're for real I am for real I
am for real I love talking topeople that are just doing big
things and that's what it soundslike you're doing we're trying
we're it's fun it's all aboutjust putting the stories out
there I I believe in storiesyeah and I believe in connecting
(37:40):
people this is a good one it'sabout I mean it's even about
identity and like figuring outwho you are as a person.
So it's about so much so manythings loyalty oh man yeah a lot
of everything aging yeah agingit's great it's great so thank
you good luck with this next onethis one is fabulous and I hope
(38:01):
you get lots of readers hope andlots of your mouth the readers'
ears yeah thank you it was mypleasure Annie and we'll talk
soon I'll leave you all withthis life is a paradox in order
to heal you must hurt in orderto love you must break open in
order to have peace you mustface chaos never regret any
(38:26):
experience in your life becauseit is always meant to bring you
balance the light always followsthank you so much for listening
to Virago247.
If you haven't done so alreadygo ahead and hit that subscribe
button and please give us fivestar ratings.
(38:46):
Also don't forget to follow uson Instagram at Virago24
underscore seven and on Facebookat Virago24 slash seven and just
connect with us and share yourstory we'd love to hear from
you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.