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October 29, 2024 34 mins

We’re slithering into the fascinating world of Virginia’s snakes, equipping you with practical tips to enjoy the great outdoors while respecting these often-misunderstood creatures. 

 

In Part 2 of this two-part episode, Caroline Seitz of the Virginia Herpetological Society, helps us dispel common myths and misconceptions while broadening our understanding and appreciation of our native species.

 

Caroline tackles listener questions about safety measures and snake behavior, offering practical advice for snake encounters, so you can hit the trails with confidence. Let’s Go!


Don’t miss part 1 of this two-part episode. Last week, Caroline covered how many species of snakes are native to Virginia and which are venomous, our most common species throughout the state, the difference between venomous and poisonous, and whether hikers should be concerned about encountering a snake on the trail. 

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Mentioned in this Episode:

Virginia Herpetological Society

Book: Guide to Snakes and Lizards of Virginia


Fan Mail - Send Jessica a Text Message

Contact show host, Jessica Bowser:

jessica@virginiaoutdooradventures.com

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Bowser (00:01):
From the Blue Ridge Mountains to the
Chesapeake Bay.
Virginia is a mecca for outdoortravel and adventure.
Virginia Outdoor Adventurespodcast is your local guide for
hiking, camping, kayaking,travel and so much more.
Get the information and theinspiration to plan your own
adventure right here in Virginia.

(00:21):
I'm your host, jessica Bowser.
We're slithering into thefascinating world of Virginia
snakes, equipping you withpractical tips to enjoy the
great outdoors while respectingthese often misunderstood
creatures.
In part two of this two-partepisode, caroline Seitz of the
Virginia Herpetological Societyhelps us dispel common myths and

(00:45):
misconceptions, whilebroadening our understanding and
appreciation of our nativespecies.
Caroline tackles listenerquestions about safety measures
and snake behavior, offeringpractical advice for snake
encounters so you can hit thetrails with confidence.
Let's go.
Hit the trails with confidence,let's go.

(01:08):
The last question that I pickedfrom Kelly is what is most
misunderstood?

Caroline Seitz (01:10):
about snakes.
I'm just going to go with thatsnakes are something to be
afraid of, that snakes aresomehow dangerous to humans.
Okay again, copperheads,rattlesnakes, cottonmouths if
you get bitten by them.
Dangerous, no question about it.
But it's so easy.
It's so easy to not be bitten.
You just leave them alone.

(01:31):
And all the other snakes, theother 29 species of snakes found
in Virginia.
They can't even hurt you at all, like there's nothing that they
could do that would harm you.
Also, they're not like thinkingabout hurting you either.
Snakes have a mind.
They have feelings.
They feel fear, they can feelpain, they can feel hungry, but

(01:52):
snakes, they don't have anyinterest in being around people.
They're afraid of people.
Also, people think why do theywant to come in my house?
Like, are they coming into myhouse just to bother me?
No, If you have snakes in yourhouse, it's because they were
able to get inside.
There was some way, there wassome opening.

(02:12):
It could be as small as a holethe size of a pencil and they're
just nosing around and they canstick their little head in and
they can come in.
They're not doing it becausethey want to live with you.
They just go inside of housesbecause they can actually get
inside of them, and especiallythis time of year in the fall,
when it's getting cold outside,they're looking for warm places
and your house is nice and cozy.

(02:33):
So the way to keep them out ofyour house is just to make sure
that there's no access points.

Jessica Bowser (02:38):
I imagine that's probably tricky.
You know, I live in a townhouseand the attic is relatively
inaccessible except through thissmall crawl space in the
ceiling and so I never go upthere in the 14 years that I
think I've owned my house.
But I did have to go up once.
I was checking on something andI had to get out a ladder and I
climbed through the hole andI'm like walking up in the
rafters with the flashlight andI found this at least four foot

(03:02):
long snakeskin, you know, justlike in the rafters, and I
thought it was the coolest thing.
And I remembered that severalyears before we had had mice,
mice had somehow gotten in andso I felt really grateful in
that moment that that snake hadfound its way in and was helping
me with the rodent problem thatI potentially was having at the

(03:23):
time.
And I came down with thepicture and was so excited.
My husband was not the leastbit excited.
He was like what's up there?
I mean he was ready to burn thehouse down, but I was like you
know, this is really cool thatthis animal can come in and
actually help me with apotential issue that I had that
I would otherwise have to pay anexterminator for.

Caroline Seitz (03:42):
Yeah, and the rodents actually could hurt you.
The snake couldn't have hurtyou, but the rodents, they can
actually carry some diseasesthat are zoonotic, that can
spread to humans.
Also, rodents can chew throughelectrical wiring, and, speaking
of burning the house down, theycould have done that for you.
So rodents are a real, actualproblem to have in your house.
Whereas a snake is not going tocause a fire and is very

(04:05):
unlikely to give you anydiseases, snakes potentially can
carry salmonella.
Very unlikely that you're goingto get salmonella from a snake
that's in your house, though,whereas other diseases from
rodents are.
Oh, and getting back to commonmyths about snakes, there's two
that I thought of jumped in myhead.
One is that cottonmouth watermoccasins are found throughout

(04:25):
Virginia.
That's a common common myth.
I'll be walking along thePotomac River in Fairfax County,
or I'll be, you know one of thecounty parks here, and people
see a water snake, or you knowany snake near the water, and
they say, oh, that's a watermoccasin.
No, no, no, no, no.
We don't have those in thispart of Virginia.
The other common myth that Ihear is that copperheads mate

(04:48):
with black rat snakes or easternrat snakes to produce venomous
babies, and that is completelywrong, completely impossible.
For one thing, rat snakes layeggs, and copperheads give birth
to live babies.
Also, I won't get too technicalhere, but the parts they have
internal fertilization betweenmale and female snakes, and the

(05:08):
hemipenes of the male snake arelike a lock and key with its own
species, so they in fact won'tfit with a species that's not
their own.
The reason, though, that Ithink that that myth was created
is that young Eastern ratsnakes and young Northern black
racers are not black.
They are born with that diamondpattern of gray or brown over a

(05:29):
creamy white background, andwhen they're frightened they
flatten their head in a triangle, they raise in an S shape and
they rattle their tail, eventhough they don't have a rattle.
So they resemble rattlesnakeswhen they're young, when they're
juveniles, and then they, asthey grow, slowly fade to black,
although sometimes they canretain a little bit of their
juvenile pattern.

(05:50):
So again, cottonmouth watermoccasins only live in a small
part of southeastern Virginia,nowhere else, and venomous
snakes cannot interbreed withnon-venomous snakes.
Wow.

Jessica Bowser (06:03):
All really interesting and maybe I'm wrong
about this, but just from my ownexperience as somebody who
hikes a lot and hikes around allparts of the state a lot, I
very rarely ever come across oneof the three venomous snakes.
I even spent eight daysprimitive camping at Falls Cape
State Park a few years ago andcottonmouths are pretty common

(06:23):
there.
I never saw one, even when,like the ranger came to pick me
up at the end of my trip.
I hopped into the truck andwe're driving out and I said you
know, I never saw a cottonmouththe whole time I was here.
She goes what?
There was one right next to thetruck when we were loading your
stuff.
If I had known I would havepointed it out.
So I to this day still have notseen one.

(06:44):
But I have seen like maybe tworattlesnakes and I just saw my
first copperhead literally thispast summer, the day before my
birthday.
It was like the best birthdaypresent ever.
But otherwise I really I justdon't run into them and I don't
know, is that normal?

Caroline Seitz (06:58):
That is so normal.
So, listen, I'm 52 years oldand I've been looking for snakes
since I was three.
So that's like 49 years oflooking for snakes actively and
I can count two, two timberrattlesnakes.
I'm just going to count forVirginia, but really for the
rest of my life, travelingeverywhere else too.
I usually don't see venomoussnakes, but here in Virginia I

(07:20):
think I've seen two timberrattlesnakes.
Never seen a cottonmouth tried.
I went down to First LandingState Park a couple of times.
I went to the National WildlifeRefuge that's next to Falls.
Cape Back Bay was told, oh,you're definitely going to see
them.
Didn't, didn't see, looked andlooked and I know what I'm
looking for and I was therespecifically at the right time
of year.

(07:40):
Didn't see them.
They're there, they're therefor sure.
I just didn't get to see them.
And then I probably have seenmaybe 10 copperheads.
And again, I am actively outthere looking.

Jessica Bowser (07:51):
Yeah, so I guess your chances of really running
into one are probably if you'relucky, right, if you're lucky if
you're super duper lucky,you'll get to see one.
Yeah, I think I've seen more asroadkill, sadly, than alive
ones.

Caroline Seitz (08:07):
And a lot of people, when they see snakes,
assume that they're a copperheador a cottonmouth or a
rattlesnake.
When they're not Like a lot ofpeople will see a garter snake
or a decays brown snake or ayoung racer or rat snake and
label it.
They'll tell everybody oh,that's a copperhead, I saw a
copperhead and I think thereason for that is it's more
exciting for people to say theysaw a venomous snake than a

(08:30):
non-venomous snake.
It sounds better when you gohome and say I was on a hike and
I saw a copperhead than I wason a hike and I saw a decays
brown snake.

Jessica Bowser (08:40):
Yeah, they live to tell the story.
In other words, yeah, exactly.

Caroline Seitz (08:43):
And so it's just more exciting.
And so a lot of people hearthat people are seeing these
snakes and they think, wow,there's a lot of copperheads.
When no.
But hey, if you ever do want tofind out for sure, if you're
not a snake nerd yourself andyou need somebody to ID it from
a safe distance, if you get apicture of whatever snake that
you're seeing safe distance, wecan zoom in, you can email it to

(09:07):
the Virginia HerpetologicalSociety and we can give you a
definitive ID.
We have the top experts onVirginia herpetology working on
the Virginia Herp ID email.
We literally have people whoare in fact writing the book on
salamanders in Virginia who arepart of the Virginia
Herpetological Society.

Jessica Bowser (09:26):
Yeah, I'll just jump in to say that I have
emailed photos to them, or evensent them via Messenger on
Facebook many, many times overthe years, because there are a
lot of species that look verysimilar, like smooth green snake
and rough green snake right.
Yes.

Caroline Seitz (09:40):
And one of the things that's helpful when you
send us that picture is tell uswhere you are, like, not like.
Are you in your you knowbackyard?
No, no, no.
We need to know, like whatcounty or what town you're in,
because, for instance, in thecase of a smooth versus rough
green snake, in addition tolooking at the scalation, if you
tell us what county you're in,that can automatically rule out

(10:00):
the smooth green snake, becausethe smooth green snake is only
found in certain counties.

Jessica Bowser (10:05):
Yeah, and that's a beautiful snake too, both of
them.

Caroline Seitz (10:08):
Never seen the smooth green, seen rough greens,
but never a smooth.

Jessica Bowser (10:11):
Yeah, I saw a Northern rough green snake.
I was riding my bike downHighbridge Trail one September
and they were out sunningthemselves on the trail and I
didn't realize it and I ran oneover with my bike and I
literally cried Caroline, I wasso upset because they're so
adorable and they're notaggressive in any way and it was

(10:34):
just out there being its littlecute snake self.
Yeah, they're beautiful.

Caroline Seitz (10:39):
They eat insects .
They're just such a fantasticsnake.

Jessica Bowser (10:43):
I was with a friend who was trying to calm me
down and he's like, oh, but itslithered away, it's perfectly
fine.
I'm like, no, it's probablysuffering over in the bushes,
over there A lot of people don'trealize snakes have bones, just
they're a vertebrate animal.

Caroline Seitz (10:54):
They literally have backbone and ribs and a
skull.
They have stomach, lungs, lung.
Most snakes just have one lung.
Some snakes do have two, butthey have liver, they have
pancreas, they have all the sameinternal organs that you have.
Basically, snakes are just likeyou.
They just don't have arms andlegs.

Jessica Bowser (11:16):
And this one's really cute because its face
reminds me of Kermit the Frog ohyeah, I don't know how else to
describe it Like if you reallydon't like snakes and you can't
get over the long you know bodyor whatever.
Just look at its face.

Caroline Seitz (11:30):
Yeah.

Jessica Bowser (11:30):
I mean they look like other reptiles that we
think are cute, things likefrogs and turtles.
Like their faces are prettymuch the same and they're just
really adorable.

Caroline Seitz (11:39):
Yeah, yeah, oh.
And here's another myth.
A lot of people think snakesare slimy In.
I'm sure you've all heard thatword before keratin right, they
put it in really expensive hairproducts because your
fingernails and your hair isalso made of keratin.
So if you wanna know whatpetting a snake feels like, pet

(12:00):
your fingernails, because snakescales are just basically
fingernails that are small andlaid down all across the snake's
body.
But I also don't recommendpetting snakes because they
don't like it when humans touchthem.

Jessica Bowser (12:15):
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Just kidding, virginia OutdoorAdventures is always free for my
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(12:36):
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(12:57):
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(13:20):
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(13:42):
So Thomas sent in a question hewould like to know is there any
type of tree snakes in Virginia?

Caroline Seitz (13:48):
Oh yeah, definitely so.
The rough green snake, thesmooth green snake, the eastern
rat snake, oh man, rat snakes.
If the rough green snake, thesmooth green snake, the eastern
rat snake, oh man, rat snakes,if you see a snake somewhere and
you think how did that snakeget up there, it's almost
certainly a rat snake.

Jessica Bowser (14:01):
I have seen rough green snakes in trees
before too.

Caroline Seitz (14:05):
They're, definitely they are arboreal.
This time of year is really thetime that we see them, because
they're completely camouflagedwhen they're up in trees and
bushes, but they leave the treesand bushes right now because
they're searching for places tohibernate.
Snakes don't exactly hibernate,for those of you who are in the
know, but you know what I mean.
They're finding places thatthey can hunker down for the
winter, so we can actually seetheir beautiful emerald green

(14:27):
bodies as they're cruisingacross trails and paths, whereas
normally they're up in thegreen trees and bushes.

Jessica Bowser (14:34):
Glenn sent in this question, which I think is
really interesting.
He says Florida is having a lotof issues with pythons.
How far north could they spread?

Caroline Seitz (14:44):
It's a really good question that I don't know
the exact answer to.
Pythons are tropical species,but obviously Florida is not
exactly in the tropics andthey've been able to survive
there, but they're not going tocome here.
We're not going to have pythonsliving in Virginia, so we don't
have to worry about that.
But I will say this that poorpythons, they are an invasive

(15:04):
species.
It's not healthy to have themin the Everglades.
But, come on, there's like somany invasive species that are
so much more devastatinglynoxious than Burmese pythons.
Let's just talk about porcelainberry.
Let's talk about kudzu, let'stalk about the spotted
lanternfly.
Let's talk about the invasivearmorated stink bug.

(15:26):
There are so many species thatare just not as exciting.
They're not as sexy as theBurmese python that we can all
talk about and vilify.
Are Burmese pythons good tohave in Florida?
Definitely not.
Are they the worst thing that'shappening in Florida?
No, they're not.
There's plenty of other things.
And no, you don't need to worryabout Burmese pythons being in

(15:47):
Virginia.

Jessica Bowser (15:48):
I won't get on my soapbox about spotted
lanternflies, but those seem tobe getting out of control right
now.
So yeah, you're right, there'sa lot of other things to be
concerned about.

Caroline Seitz (15:56):
Much, much more devastating than Burmese pythons
.

Jessica Bowser (15:59):
All right.
So the next question is fromElise and I just love this
question because, honestly, I'vewondered this myself and she
asks is anything still alivewhen it gets into that snake
belly?

Caroline Seitz (16:12):
And I have a great story for you.
So when I was a little girl, Iwould spend my days out of
school in the woods.
Behind my back there's a bigswamp and I once brought home a
giant northern water snake and Idon't recommend that you guys
go out and catch snakes andbring them home, but I was you

(16:32):
know, I was 10, and I wasbringing home snakes and putting
them in my room for a couple ofdays and then letting them go
because I love snakes.
And I brought home this giantnorthern water snake and for
those of you who are wondering,did it bite me and did it poop
all over me?
The answer is yes and yes.
And while it was biting andpooping, it's because it was
terrified, because I was holdingit and it was scared of me.
It threw up a huge spottedsalamander, probably eight

(16:57):
inches long.
It was enormous.
And it threw up the spottedsalamander and I washed it off
and it was fine and thesalamander walked around.
So the answer horrifyingly, asin Return of the Jedi, with the
Sarlacc pit where you'd beslowly digested for millions of
years the answer, unfortunately,is yes, with snakes that are
grab and swallow eaters, likewater snakes and garter snakes

(17:20):
and decay brown snakes.
They just grab their prey andthey just eat it and swallow it.
Yep, swallowed alive.

Jessica Bowser (17:26):
I wonder how long it would actually take, or
would have taken, thatsalamander to pass away and then
be digested.
Oh my gosh.
So interesting.
What a great story, caroline.
Two in one on that day.
Two in one, oh my gosh.
Okay, so Steve sent in the nextquestion.
He would like to know if pantslike, I guess, long pants would

(17:50):
help protect against snake bites.

Caroline Seitz (17:57):
Yeah, yeah, I mean you know they're not going
to be 100% protective, butabsolutely, when you're out
hiking, I tuck my pants intotall rubber boots and it has
nothing to do with snakes, ithas everything to do with
chiggers and ticks, because whenI tuck my pants in and tuck
them into the rubber boots, itseems to protect me from getting
these terrible chigger problemsand it really really cuts back
on ticks.
It will also definitely dosomething, you know, like if a

(18:21):
snake were to try and bite thefangs of a rattlesnake or a
copperhead or a cottonmouth.
You know they're not teeny tiny, but they would have a lot more
trouble getting throughsomething like denim.
That being said, have I goneout and gone herping in shorts
and flip-flops?
Yes, yes, I have, and, in fact,a lot of the people in the
Virginia Herpetological Society.

(18:42):
When they go out, they alsojust wear tennis shoes and
shorts.
Your chances of A finding avenomous snake are very, very
low and your chances of findingone and getting it's just not
really something you need toworry about.
Let's just say that it'ssomething you can.
Just take a breath, it's gonnabe okay.

Jessica Bowser (19:01):
I always wear long pants, even in the summer,
because of what you just saidticks, chiggers, poison, ivy but
I'm definitely not hiking inrubber boots and I'm not hiking
in anything that doesn't breathewell, so it's all very
lightweight.

Caroline Seitz (19:13):
I don't hike generally in rubber boots, but
the reason that I wear them whenwe're doing the herb surveys is
because we're tromping throughbrushy brush with chiggers and
ticks and poison ivy, and I amso allergic to chigger bites and
to poison ivy and so I wearthose rubber boots to protect me
from those things.

Jessica Bowser (19:31):
Oh, that's right .

Caroline Seitz (19:32):
Yeah, I remember you telling me when we were
together how allergic you wereto poison ivy, that's got to be
tough, and on that day I wasn'twearing rubber boots, so I was
staying right in the center ofthat trail.

Jessica Bowser (19:42):
John sent.
In the next question he saysshould we carry snake anti-venom
while hiking or backpacking?

Caroline Seitz (19:50):
That's an impossibility.
Snake antivenin is onlyavailable to doctors and
hospitals, and it requiresrefrigeration.
It's not something that you'regonna be able to just go out and
buy, and if you could, you'dhave to keep it refrigerated.

Jessica Bowser (20:03):
I do have one of those.
I forget what it's called.
It's supposed to be like asnake bite kit.

Caroline Seitz (20:08):
Throw it away, unless it's a pair of car keys.
Put it right in the trash can.

Jessica Bowser (20:13):
That was going to be my question.
It's got this like little pumpin it.
You're supposed to put it overthe bite, don't do it.

Caroline Seitz (20:18):
That will make it worse.
The snake bite kit will makesnake bite worse.
Literally, put it in the trash.
Your best snake bite kitincludes a cell phone or one of
those things that you can clickfor.
Emergency help kit includes acell phone or one of those
things that you can click foremergency help.

Jessica Bowser (20:35):
you know, and a set of car keys and a friend.
Okay, gosh, I'm really glad Iasked that and thank you, john,
for submitting that question,because it triggered my brain to
ask.
I'm carrying this thing aroundin my pack every time I go out.
I know, like I know I'm nevergoing to use this thing, but
there's this little thing in theback of my head going what if?
And so I'm wasting all thespace and the weight of this
thing and I'm not a physician.

Caroline Seitz (20:55):
I'm not a doctor , so if you would like to,
before throwing it away, youcould ask a physician.
There's actually a Facebookgroup called National Snake Bite
Support Group.
If you join, you can ask them,and they are run by professional
medical doctors who specializein snake envenomation.
If you wanted to get thedefinitive answer, they would be

(21:17):
the best source.

Jessica Bowser (21:19):
Well, that kind of leads really well into the
next question, which wassubmitted by Michelle.
She wants to know what to do ifyou're in a remote area and you
get bit by a snake.

Caroline Seitz (21:29):
So, once again, I am not a medical doctor, so I
hesitate giving actual medicaladvice.
But if I was bitten by a snakein a remote area, the first
thing I would try to do is tocall 911.
You know, if there was any waythat I could get 911, and then I
would I would listen towhatever directions they gave me
.
That's number one.

(21:49):
If somebody could carry me outso that I didn't have to do too
much, I would try to do that.
But again, 911 first.
I mean, really there's not alot that I know of that you can
do if you're in remote, otherthan get out of remote
backcountry to a hospital.
If you're bitten by a venomoussnake, if you're bitten by a

(22:10):
non-venomous snake, just washthe bite with some soap and
water.

Jessica Bowser (22:13):
Yeah, that was going to be my next question.
I feel like probably morepeople are bit by non-venomous
snakes and really, what is theextent of damage that can be
done if you're bit by a snakethat's non-venomous, I mean?

Caroline Seitz (22:24):
really it's just a scratch.
So in the sense that a scratchcould become infected, like if
you fell down and scraped yourknee on a rock, it could become
infected If you didn't, you know, keep it clean.
Same thing with a snake, butsnake mouths are.
They don't have any specialgerms that are going to be
especially dangerous or anythinglike that.
It's just a little teeny, tinyscratch.

Jessica Bowser (22:46):
Caroline.
Last question comes fromChrissy.
She says her cat caught a smallsnake in their basement.
She would like to know how didit get in.
Did he sneak in or was he bornthere?
And should she be on thelookout for a bunch of little
baby snakes?

Caroline Seitz (23:00):
Love this question.
First, I hope the snake wastaken to a wildlife
rehabilitator or a wildlifeveterinary hospital, because cat
bites can be very dangerous.
Cats actually do have specialgerms in their saliva that can
be particularly aggressivelyinfectious.
Cat bites to snakes can befatal.
But how did the snake get inthe basement?

(23:21):
So in my old job long time ago,when I used to do snake
inspections of properties inbasements, I would find snakes
coming in through the slidingglass door.
There's like a little areathere where snakes could
sometimes get in if it doesn'thave the right weather stripping
.
So you want to make sure if youcan stick a pencil from the
outside to the inside.
That's one place.

(23:41):
Another place is the dryer vent.
So I have a dryer vent thatwhen it's not on it falls flat
and no animal, including birdsor mice, can crawl up into my
dryer vent.
Also, the areas around whereyour plumbing comes into your
home.
Your electric service comesinto your home.
You want to make sure all ofthat is completely sealed up and

(24:02):
if you have crawl space vents,you want to use a fine mesh
hardware cloth that not a pencilcan get through and that will
keep them from getting into yourbasement.
Do you have more than one snakein your basement?
No way to tell it's possible.
But snakes they don't like nestin the sense of like a female

(24:25):
either she gives birth or shelays eggs and then she goes away
.
She doesn't protect the baby,she doesn't stay with the eggs
and usually the babies willdisperse.
So it's not something to be tootoo concerned about.
And if you have, you know, anyspecific questions.
If people have questions orthey want advice, they are
welcome to email VirginiaHerpetological Society.

(24:45):
I am always happy to answerquestions about reptiles and
amphibians.

Jessica Bowser (24:50):
So then I will put your contact information in
the show notes for anybody whohas additional questions and
didn't get an opportunity to askthem for the purpose of this
recording.
But let's close out with aquestion that I think is really
important, because I know a lotof people experience fear of
snakes, and I was once one ofthose people myself.

(25:10):
So the question is do you haveany tips for people who want to
get over their fear of snakes?

Caroline Seitz (25:15):
For people who have a true phobia, there is a
clinical term for that would beophidiophobia the fear of snakes
.
I would actually recommendgoing to a therapist, because
there are, in fact, therapiesthat can help people is the
clinical term for that would beophidiophobia, the fear of
snakes.
I would actually recommendgoing to a therapist, because
there are, in fact, therapiesthat can help people get over
phobias.
If it's a real phobia, that'sreally what you're going to have
to do.
But if it's just a general fearof snakes because we're in a
culture that vilifies snakes andpeople have told you bad things

(25:38):
about snakes and you just havea lot of misinformation about
snakes, I would suggest justlearning.
I always find that when there'ssomething that scares me, that
when I find out more about it,then the fear tends to lift.
You know, human beings have anatural tendency to be afraid of
things that we don't know aboutor that are strange or that we

(25:59):
don't understand.
It's a safety thing.
I mean, if you're living amillion years ago and you came
upon something that you didn'tknow and you messed with it, you
know you weren't going to beable to call 911.
So our natural instincts are toavoid things that we don't know
a lot about.
But I recommend getting to knowsnakes, perhaps reading some

(26:20):
books about snakes, maybejoining the Virginia
Herpetological Society.
Oh okay, so one of my veryfavorite herpetological surveys
happened.
I think it was three years ago.
I was on a survey and I was ona team with a woman who said she
was terrified of snakes.
And I said, and you're on aherpetological survey?

(26:41):
And she said, yep, because Ifeel like I don't want to be
scared anymore.
And so the whole day she washanging out with us.
But she also told us, honestly,I'm hoping we don't find a
snake.
But we did.
And she was so nervous I mean,it was real, it was a little
decays brown snake.
It was about maybe six incheslong and she looked at it.

(27:02):
She came real close and lookedat it and we suggested maybe
that she touch it.
Again, we generally recommendpeople not touch snakes, because
snakes don't like human beingstouching them.
But for these kinds of purposes, this is something that we do
and she didn't want to touchthat one.
So we put it back where wefound it, after photographing it
and marking it in our data, andthen we found another brown

(27:24):
snake, and this one she actuallygently reached out one finger
and gently, gently touched it.
And then the third brown snakeshe actually put it in her hand.
I couldn't believe it.
She was shaking, she wasnervous, but she was exactly
like the kind of person that Ilove meeting Somebody who was
genuinely afraid but genuinelyopen to learning more.

(27:48):
I love her story.

Jessica Bowser (27:49):
Can snakes sense when you're afraid of them?
I have no idea.

Caroline Seitz (27:54):
My instinct is no, just because they're not
attuned to human beings.
But certainly when we'reholding snakes in general, the
snake is terrified.
Brown snakes are completelyharmless and I find that when
you pick them up they don't biteever, and so that was kind of a
good snake for her to start outwith.
And if you hold snakes gently,like when I do handle wild

(28:16):
snakes for scientific purposes,I know how to handle them gently
in ways that doesn't scare themas much.
I'm not like grabbing them andyou know, grabbing them by the
head and wrestling them andstuff.
I'm gently, gently lifting themup and supporting them gently,
and so the snake is calm.

Jessica Bowser (28:35):
I'm calm, we're all calm.
I'm glad to hear you say thateducation is key to that,
because that was a lot of whathelped me get over the fear.
I was never terrified of them,but, like I remember, in college
I worked at Petco and one nightafter the store was closing I
was checking on the aquariumsand the big water tanks that
they have under the aquariums.
And I opened one up and therewas a snake that was drinking

(28:58):
out of the tank in the bottom.
It was a store, you know, a petthat was for sale.
They had gotten loose and foundits way to the water.
And I remember just likejumping back like oh my gosh,
what do I do now?
And somebody else had to comeget it.
And I remember watchingsomebody else just gently pick
it up and carry it over and Iremember thinking I would like
to be able to not have that fear.

(29:18):
You know, I would like to beable to be the person who can
say okay, come on, sweetie,let's put you back where you
belong.

Caroline Seitz (29:25):
Look where you are now.
You're my hero.

Jessica Bowser (29:28):
It's two parts.
One was to learn to appreciatethem.
But then the second part wasalso to have a sense of empathy,
because when we're fearful ofthem, we're more concerned about
our own feelings than aboutthat animals.
And even now I stumble across asnake when I'm hiking or
whenever I'm outside.
If I'm not expecting it, Istill jump back and I do that

(29:49):
with any animal, not just snakesIf there's something moving and
I'm not expecting it.
But then I usually find myselflike with my hand over my heart
saying oh friend, I'm sorry, youscared me, but also not as much
as I probably scared you, I canflip the script and realize

(30:10):
that I'm the big scary thing inthis situation and not the snake
.
That is exactly where it'ssupposed to be doing exactly
what it's supposed to be doing.

Caroline Seitz (30:14):
Jessica, you are so, so right about that Empathy
flipping the script.
That's what it's all about.
Snakes are people too.
They have their own littlesnake lives, their own little
snake thoughts.

Jessica Bowser (30:28):
They have their own big snake fears, and they
just want to live their own lifeaway from people, and that
appreciation has led me to justreally loving them and getting
excited when I find one in thewild and being able to
appreciate it in that moment,because you really don't see
them that often and so it reallymakes me stop and appreciate

(30:49):
and enjoy what I'm experiencing,and then that just brings me a
little bit closer to natureevery single time, absolutely.

Caroline Seitz (30:56):
I love that.

Jessica Bowser (30:58):
Well, Caroline, I appreciate your energy and
your enthusiasm and your lovefor our reptiles here in
Virginia and I want to thank youfor sharing all of that with us
today.

Caroline Seitz (31:11):
And Jessica, I appreciate you having this
podcast celebrating Virginiaoutdoor adventures.
I love that you're celebratingsnakes today.
Could we?

Jessica Bowser (31:19):
please get together and go out again,
because you and I had such agood time the last time we did
it and I felt like you were thesnake magnet, because I don't
see reptiles as much as I didwhen I was with you.
Every time we turned a corner,there's another one, there's
another one, and it was somagical.

Caroline Seitz (31:36):
Let's definitely do that.
This is a great time of yearright now to go out and find
baby snakes, and in April andMay is like primo time for
snakes too.
Why April and May?
You can actually find snakes 12months out of the year in
Virginia, but they do tend to gopretty dormant in the colder
times of year November, december, january, february, march

(31:56):
they're chilling out, they'resnuggling in their little dens
down in the ground.
On warm days they might pop out, but once April and May comes
and the warm season is back,they are full on, they're coming
out, they're looking for mates,they're looking for food, and
so April and May is just a greattime to find snakes.
But right now, like Septemberand October also, they're on the

(32:19):
move, looking for their placesto snuggle in for the winter,
and the babies are all eitherbeing born or are hatching, and
so we find a lot more snakesthis time of year too.

Jessica Bowser (32:28):
I will be keeping my eyes open, as I
always do on my next hike.
All right, caroline, thank youagain for being a guest on
Virginia Outdoor Adventures andI hope to see you outdoors
looking for reptiles again soon,I hope to see everybody
outdoors looking for reptilessoon.

Caroline Seitz (32:43):
Thanks so much for having me, Jessica.

Jessica Bowser (32:45):
Adventure on.
Don't miss part one of thistwo-part episode.
Last week, Caroline covered howmany species of snakes are
native to Virginia and which arevenomous, our most common
species throughout the states,the difference between venomous
and poisonous, and whetherhikers should be concerned about
encountering a snake on thetrail.

(33:05):
Virginia Outdoor Adventures isinspired by and supported by
listeners like you, which is whyyour messages and feedback
means so much to me.
You can text me directly byclicking on send me a text
message in your show notes.
I answer questions, respond tocomments and share your feedback
on the show.
Never miss an update.

(33:26):
Get even more information andinspiration by signing up for my
newsletter.
Click on newsletter, sign up inyour show notes or visit
Virginia outdooradventurescom.
Thanks for listening.
Until next time.
Adventure on.
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