June 27, 2024 • 44 mins
Zack and Jason sit down with Jessica Loney, a co-founder of Pride in Construction and a director at DiversiTrade, to discuss the challenges and progress of the LGBTQ2S+ community within the construction industry. Jessica shares her personal journey, from starting in the trades in 2007 to coming out as a transgender woman in 2019, and the difficulties she faced in gaining acceptance. The conversation covers various initiatives aimed at fostering inclusivity, the development of supportive policies, and the importance of creating a safe and welcoming work environment for all. Jessica also recounts impactful moments that propelled her advocacy work, and discusses the broader implications for retention and recruitment in the trades. Tune in to learn more about the strides made and the work still needed to ensure equality and support for underrepresented communities in the construction industry.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack (00:00):
Hello everybody.
(00:00):
And welcome back to Watt's the wordan electrical industry podcast.
My name is Zack Hartle.
I'm joined as always by Jason Cox.
More importantly, we're going totalk to people from the electrical
industry to learn something new.
Thanks so much for comingback and listening.
Make sure that you subscribe wherever youlisten to podcasts and you can get more.
(00:20):
We've got lots of episodesin the works coming up soon.
Right now, June is pride monthand we're going to be talking
about pride and construction.
And I couldn't think of abetter guest to be talking with.
Let's get into it..
We're sitting today with Jessica Loney.
She is an advocate in the pridecommunity in construction.
(00:42):
she's a co founder of pride andconstruction now a director at
DiversiTrade, which interestinglyenough, we're going to have
DiversiTrade on, on our next episode.
But with it being pride month, wewanted to get Jessica on the show.
Like I mentioned, a huge advocatein the, LGBT Q2S+ Community.
She is a site supervisor andNCSO, a gold seal, a blue seal.
(01:05):
Definitely some more.
But Jessica, welcome to the show.
Welcome to Watt's the word.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Zack.
It's a pleasure to be here.
And of course, an electrician.
Jessica (01:15):
Absolutely.
Master electrician, RedSeal, safety codes officer.
Zack (01:21):
I think I got that in there somewhere, but that's okay.
Uh,
We'll, we'll find, we'll find out.
So, all right, we've got a lot to talk about today,
Jessica, um, Jason and I.
We're going to learn a lot.
, Making waves right now in theindustry, talking about pride,
talking about the challenges thatthat can have within the industry.
But first, just tell us about yourself.
Tell us, you know, Jessica inthree minutes, how did you get to
(01:44):
where you are and we'll get moreinto your story later, I'm sure,
Jessica (01:48):
Oh goodness, that's a lot of uh, interesting stuff
to squeeze into three minutes.
So I started the trades in 2007 with alocal company called Grand West Electric.
been with them for 18 years now.
I got my Red Seal in 2011.
got my NCSO in 2013, um, my MasterElectrician in 2016, Safety Codes Officer
(02:13):
Gold Seal, stuff like that in 2019,but um, one of the biggest things kind
of chronologically was I came out as atransgender woman in the construction
industry in late 2019, um, and theindustry in Southern Alberta was not.
(02:35):
As accepting as it is now, it was quitedifficult at first, but there's been a
lot of progress made a lot of progresshard fought for, but we're here and
it's working out really well for us.
Jason (02:50):
Personally, myself, I've worked with some former staff members
that, that had a real hard time.
coming out.
Um, they, they basicallyhid their lifestyle choices.
So it's an awfully bravething for you to do.
I couldn't imagine just how, howdifficult that must have been.
Jess (03:09):
Well, it's, it's something that I've struggled with since the early
90s, but back then there wasn't thevocabulary, there wasn't the, and the
medical terminology, so to speak, likethere was still something, but like the
only representation that our communityhad was like Jerry Springer Maury, right?
(03:29):
And it was something like shameful.
Jaso (03:34):
In the 90s, yeah, I took a sociology course and, um, And it covered
all sorts of different lifestyles.
And we, we, we were introducedto a whole bunch of things.
I mean, it's early, early 90s.
And, and yeah, to think about what Ilearned back then and, and where we are
(03:55):
today and even in the last few years.
It's, I mean, it's aconstant, constant change.
And, and, and we're learningmore and more every day.
Jessica (04:06):
Absolutely.
There's always that forward movement.
But like when I first came out, a lot ofthe people that were in my close circle,
they knew me prior to coming out, right?
So like there was still that conceptionof who I was versus who I am.
And lot of people foundthat difficult to deal with.
(04:27):
There wasn't a lot of support around that.
They didn't know how to.
I wouldn't say act, but how toconduct themselves around me.
Jason (04:35):
was one of the talking points that Zack and I were
talking about the other day.
It was like, unintendeddistractions, right?
Like, you don't, like, it's, there'san awkwardness to, I mean, I've
even, just talking to you today, I'mtrying my best to not offend anyone.
I mean, but we're all,all trying to learn.
And I, I think that eventually thiswill become, um, fairly normal.
(05:02):
Uh, when I, when I speak with mychildren, they grew up with, with
trans, students in their schools.
It's something that they, transand gay students, it was something
that they were comfortable with andto them that was a normal thing.
So, I, I think that thereare changes happening.
But, Kind of, but it's a little differentin the classroom when you're growing up
(05:25):
with these people and you're changing.
Uh, I, I think we've kind ofalluded that it is getting better.
We are learning more in all areas.
But like, what are some of thechallenges still today the Pride
community is facing with, employmentin the construction industry?
Zack (05:43):
and, just, maybe get my head around this too.
Is it.
Are we get is the constructionindustry as a whole?
Are we, we're probably slowerto adopt and be more accepting.
I would imagine.
Like, is that, have you noticed that aswell inside the industry versus outside
a different change of, , acceptance?
Jessic (06:02):
it's kind of interesting because I just sat in on a
roundtable with Pride at Work.
But it was for like the corporate legalindustry, that sector, so office space.
And, All I could think of was like,this is completely different than
what it's like on a construction site.
Right?
Um, this industry, the demographicthat's currently employed by this
(06:28):
industry, they're a little bit slowerto be more open minded when it comes
to concepts around gender identity andsexual orientation, because construction
inherently is this hyper masculine.
industry, right?
Like you think of a constructionworker, it's these burly dudes, you
(06:50):
know, in work, blood, sweat, and tears.
And absolutely it is, but there'salso these other demographics that
are making their way in, right?
There's women, English for secondlanguage, black indigenous people
of color, the queer community.
Like, it's not so much onedefined demographic anymore.
(07:11):
It's, it's more broadened.
So slowly we're getting there.
When it comes to acceptance,but it's definitely progress
in the right direction.
Zack (07:24):
I, I at that time that happened either in the
industry or in your personal life thatmade it so that you were able to come out?
Like, what was the switch that flippedfor you, if you don't mind sharing?
Jessica (07:40):
Well for for me coming out It's like two different things.
There's like me coming out and thenthere's me finding my voice Right.
So like when I first came out, I waspretty so to speak I was more afraid
of like my surroundings but for me toactually physically come out I had to it.
(08:01):
It wasn't a choice I led this hypermasculine facade for so long both
in my professional and my personallife that, for lack of better words,
it would have killed me, right?
And I'm here today and I'm grateful forbeing here today because I was able to
be honest with myself and I was ableto be honest with the people around me.
(08:24):
But, um, even my coming out story, like,I had the help of Virgin Radio coming out.
I came out to the entire city at once.
Live on air, uh, as well asthe owners of my company.
They flew in from Vancouverto have a staff meeting.
In Virgin Radio, they weren't evensupposed to air it until three
(08:44):
o'clock in the afternoon, butthey had it like on repeat drive
in the morning and everything.
So like, all of my co workers werecalling me like, what the hell is this?
What the hell is So, kind ofruined the surprise there, but
um, coming out saved my life.
But then there was a longrough patch after coming out.
(09:06):
Um, There was vandalism, peoplemessed with my tools, people messed
with my equipment, I had screws leftin the tires of my work truck, I
had cups of urine left on my scissorlift, bathroom was destroyed, um,
the wheel, one of the wheels on myscissor lift, someone had loosened all
(09:27):
of the bolts that held the wheel on.
And as I was doing my pre-useinspection, the wheel fell off.
If I didn't do my pre-use inspectionand I elevated on that thing with that
wheel falling off, I could have died.
Like there's all of these things thathappened that kind of got me fed up with
the industry, so to speak, just likethe, culture of the industry and like how
(09:52):
it's treated people that were different.
So that kind of started likebuilding up the frustration of it.
But the big catalyst that got me to findmy voice after coming out was the It
didn't even really have to do with me.
It was someone else on a job site.
And for those in construction,they'll know exactly the setting.
(10:15):
It was a hot summer day.
were all working a slab, right?
So form works up, the rebar's down,plumbers are laying out their cans,
electricians are pulling their coreline between boxes, Rod busters
are breaking everything on deck.
The usual.
(10:35):
And the ironworker foreman wasjust screaming at this kid, just
belittling him in front of everyone.
And um, I couldn't take it anymore.
this, this kid, he was like maybe18, 19, still wet behind the ears, so
to speak, like didn't know anything.
(10:57):
And this guy just yelled at him foreight hours a day, just constantly.
And no one said anything to him.
Um, you give the warning foroffensive language at all?
Zack (11:10):
Yeah, you're good.
can imagine, yeah, I can imaginejust, I mean, the, the one of the things
that we're kind of stepping around it,but there is, there is, there is that
Neanderthal bully attitude in the tradesthat is apparently, finding its way out.
But I, I have been that person thathas been tormented in the past, and
(11:35):
it's, yeah, it, you wouldn't see thatin, in any other industry, and I mean,
that's something I think that we're,we're trying to improve, for sure.
Jessica (11:46):
well, that's the big thing is I told this guy, you
know, take it out on me and thenwatch how fast you'll get off site.
But I did it in such a waythat everyone, like all 50 plus
people on that deck, notice.
And it, it was just this hugeshift in the culture, not only on
(12:06):
that site, but like within my ownprofessional development as well.
It let me feel that itwas okay to have a voice.
J (12:16):
So it sounds like, and one of the things I was, I was thinking about
is, obviously, you've got all of thisthat's happened to you personally,
and then in your professional life.
And then this one incident, and many ofus have been in situations where there's
someone that is just acting, acting beyondhorrible to someone and the harassment
(12:38):
and the bullying is just unspeakable.
So it sounds like this was one ofthose moments where you were actually
now propelled in and even volunteeredor were in a situation where you
then became the advocate for thatindividual and, and also for yourself.
Yeah.
Je (12:55):
Well, in that moment, it was just, I had to do something, but then
I took that moment and I ran with it.
I kind of kept that momentum going andI met up with six other queer people
in the industry who are all havinglike circumstance, um, what they're
going through on the job, right.
(13:16):
Um, with the harassment and bullyingand just the, the bullshit, right.
And that's kind of how prideand construction started.
Was when we had enough and with thatwe started to get the attention of
the media, , different podcasts like,uh, Josh Zolan, Blue is the New White.
(13:40):
We were We were on his,
yeah, he's a great, great show.
I've act, I've actuallybeen on his show as well.
And yeah, the work he'sdoing is incredible.
Just his advocacy forthe trades in general.
So,
Jessica (13:51):
absolutely.
And then, you know, CTV and like nationalpanels with Ellis Dawn and Build a
Dream and, and in that summer of 2021,we actually got pride flags to fly on
construction sites Alberta, and that waskind of like an unheard thing, right?
It was never happened before, so we knewthat there was this shift happening, and
(14:16):
we just kept, kept that momentum going.
So you've mentioned, so one ofmy, one of my just canned questions here
was, who are your biggest supporters?
Obviously you've just mentioned a wholebunch of people there or entities.
Um, where do we need moresupport moving forward?
(14:42):
There's so many different places, um,
I think lot of times people have thisconception Any good culture starts
top down and like granted, yes,when management buys in, it pours
down to the rest of the workforce.
I totally get that, but there's all ofthese companies that are making these
(15:07):
policies in the office and they'reall high fiving each other, like they
did such a great job, but it doesn'ttranslate to the workers on site.
There's no education.
There's no follow up.
If someone does, pardon me, go out oftheir way and become malicious on site.
(15:28):
There's no like reprimand for it.
There's nothing that happens.
It goes By the wayside and it's just Ifeel like the the workers on site need
to have That type of support like theeducation support the awareness support
(15:50):
And just the freedom to be themselves.
And then that could also trickle down intothe employers like Employee assistance
programs their EAPs their benefitsbetter mental health benefits Right.
Like a lot of construction workers,we have maybe 500 a year go see
a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
(16:11):
And that's like two visits.
Jason (16:13):
Right.
Jessica (16:14):
are you going to accomplish in two hours?
Right.
And it's just, there's all of thesethings are like gender affirming benefits.
That's another one.
Um, and that, that corporate worldthat I spoke of a bit earlier.
huge on that, right?
Like, my partner worked for Deloitte for awhile, and while she was with them, their
(16:37):
gender affirming benefits gave me, like,25, 000 a year to do whatever I needed
to with, up to 100, 000 in a lifetime.
Like, that's huge.
We don't see that in construction.
They had 4, 000 a year in, like, medicalbenefits, like, for mental health.
(16:59):
Yeah, that could, that definitelycould be life changing right there.
Yeah.
eight times as much as the construction industry.
Zac (17:06):
which we, I think we've all heard the stats about how construction
industry just in general has sucha poor mental health overall.
Right.
Je (17:16):
I think they're pretty close to men in the construction industry are
40 times more likely to commit suicideand like the numbers are staggering.
When we were at the, DiversiTrade was atthe program advisory committee at SAIT in
February and just some of the stats thatwe heard around mental health and suicide
rates and, um, just the numbers affectingmore, especially men in the construction
(17:41):
industry was just, it was breathtaking.
Jason (17:46):
Well, I, I mean, it was a lot of, uh, self medication
through drugs and alcohol, right?
That's, that's, that was myexperience back in, in industry.
It seemed that the bigger the stressbecame, the, the more you just self
medicated with alcohol or drugs.
Je (18:06):
But it wasn't even just self medicating, it was almost celebrated.
Right?
Like, oh, what'd you do this weekend?
Oh, I went out and I got trashed forthree days and I'm still hungover.
And everyone, again, high fiveseach other like, oh, that's awesome.
Right?
But that, that's changing.
That was like ten years ago at least.
And it hasn't been like thatto that degree for a while.
(18:30):
But that's where it was, andthat's where it was coming from.
Jason (18:34):
Yeah, those, those days are shooting far between now
for, for an old guy like me.
Yeah.
So.
Jessica (18:42):
You still get the young guns that like to party.
Jason (18:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's quite interesting, uh.
Zack (18:48):
the party, it's, that's what matters, I guess.
Jessica (18:51):
But it comes back to those supports, right?
And like another thing that would begreat for support would be the ability
for the employees to ask for help worryof reprimand, to be able to be honest with
the employer and say, I have a problemwith this, this, and this, without fear
(19:11):
of losing their job or fear of beingostracized, through their organization.
Zack (19:20):
So obviously the employer that you work for is great.
I mean, they, you, like you said,you've been with them, I think
you said 18 years was the number.
They helped you, you I'm sure have helpedwork with them to improve things there.
What kind of stuff are you tryingto get put in place at your
employer that you wish otheremployers would kind of follow suit
Jessica (19:40):
So like prior to me transitioning, I knew that it was coming.
Not only am I like a master electriciansite supervisor, but I'm also the health
and safety coordinator for the company.
I started putting policies in placelike the anti bullying and harassment
policy and the anti violence policy andthe drug and alcohol policy, like all
(20:02):
of these things that followed specificmodels to put protections in place,
not only for myself, but those thatare like me within the organization.
And I made sure to specifically callout the protected classes within
the Charter of Human Rights andFreedoms, as well as the Alberta Human
Rights Act, um, like your gender,gender identity, sexual orientation,
(20:25):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I made sure to specifically mentionthose, within those policies.
But some things that, I'd really liketo put in place would be, again, looking
at the Employee Assistance Program.
So I'm working with our employer,who's with OpenCircle currently.
Used to be Merit.
(20:47):
And we're exploring options with themaround mental health and addictions and,
just those kinds of areas, so to speak,to give each individual employee the
support that they need outside of work,as well as being able to support them
with policies inside of the workplace.
Zac (21:09):
Once we have these policies in place, which so many companies
do have something similar.
I mean, it sounds like yours areprobably a little bit more thoughtful
and, intentional with their wording,but how are we taking those policies
and implementing them on site and justtrying to build that community, uh or safe
space on the actual construction site?
(21:30):
What are the little stepsday to day you're doing?
Jessica (21:34):
So, I think one of the biggest things that a lot of
companies don't get is, they haveto work with the stakeholders that
the policies are written about.
So, a lot of these companies,first, like you said, a lot of these
companies have something in place.
For a lot of places,it's just a box to tick.
(21:55):
It's a requirement.
It's like this necessity thing.
So, if it's not, like, actually wanted.
It's just done because it has to.
So right there, if that's theculture, it's already failed.
But then on top of that, you can't justbe sitting in an office writing up this
five, 10, however long page document.
(22:18):
And again, high fiving all the projectmanagers and the ownership, right?
Saying, look at how awesome we are whenyou didn't even talk to anyone on site.
You didn't consult with them.
You didn't talk to the queerpeople inside your organization.
You didn't talk to the trans person.
You didn't talk to thegay men or the lesbian.
You didn't actually get their insightof what would be helpful for them
(22:42):
specifically to your company's needs.
Cause every company is different, right?
Culture's different.
Ownership's different.
Structure's different.
Um, the methodology is kind of thesame, but you have to engage with the
people that the policy is meant for.
You can't just write something andexpect everyone to adhere to it if
(23:05):
they've never even seen it and you'venever talked to them about it before.
It's forcing something on them thata lot of people in our industry are
already kind of hesitant to buy into.
And by having that engagement withthem by asking questions and having
their input and having them put theirtouch, their finesse on that policy,
(23:28):
it helps with the buy-in right.
Cause it's like, Hey, I helped with this.
This is a part of me.
I contributed to this.
It means something now.
And if you get everyone in on it, likeeven if you go site to site and you just
do a toolbox meeting and you speak aboutit and you have just kind of a Q and a,
and everyone gives their feedback, thenyou have that company wide buy in because
(23:54):
they were all part of that process.
Right.
I think that's one of the strongestthings that you need to do to be able
to get it from the office to the site.
is to start by working withthe site before bringing it
to the office for sign off.
Jason (24:09):
Yeah, and definitely more than just a checkbox.
And as, as we're having this conversation,I'm, like, I don't know what the
statistics are of, of how many of the, thegay, lesbian, queer community are actually
in construction, like 1%, 2%, 10%.
I don't know.
But, but one of the things from thisis that it's going to make the, if we
(24:34):
can have policies and procedures andbehaviors, like this, we're going
to lead to having a safer worksite.
Jessica (24:42):
Absolutely, like safety isn't just the physical aspect,
the psychological aspect as well.
J (24:49):
I have to look at it from the examples that I ran across and I ran
across a couple of times with likereally, really serious bullying on sites.
And I mean, obviously just yourstory, I mean, is way beyond
anything I would ever imagine.
Yeah, this, this could make,the job safer for everyone.
(25:12):
If people are able to come to work and just be themselves and they
don't have to have this facade goingon, they're not distracted, right?
Efficiency will go up, safety willgo up, productivity will go up,
buy in to the vision gets stronger.
Right in that thatcohesiveness of the team.
(25:36):
Um, teamwork makes the dream work, right?
Like everything becomes better
And like you said, like if we can.
Make everybody comfortable atwork and bring more people to
the site and have them be moreproductive and more efficient.
And word's going to spreadquickly to that construction.
You can be who you want to be.
(25:56):
You can come to work and we'regoing to add to the workforce.
We're looking at a skilled workershortage coming up in the next few years.
I mean, I think that solving or improvingpride in construction and Acceptance
on construction sites isn't going tosolve just one problem, but it's going
to help with so many other problems.
Jessica (26:19):
Absolutely.
it will make those who are alreadyin the industry want to stay.
it will increase retention rates,but on top of that, it will become
more attractive to the youngergeneration because right now the
construction industry has this image.
Right, and it's it's an image problem.
(26:43):
For lack of a better terminology, it'sstraight, it's white, it's middle aged,
it's hyper masculine, all of these things.
And the industry is so focused onthat demographic that they're missing
out on so many talented people, somany hard working, talented people
that are afraid to step into theindustry they don't fit that box.
(27:09):
And I think that if we open up ourdoors and like take those blinders
off, we can definitely help alleviatethat skilled labor shortage.
And not just with the queer community,but like I said before, what DiversiTrade
does is like women, English for secondlanguage, indigenous people of color,
and the queer community, like all ofthose underrepresented communities.
(27:32):
We try to promote and help navigate theapprenticeship process and help empower
employers, to be able to make meaningfulemployment for these demographics.
Jason (27:47):
Like I've been in the construction industry now for 30 years.
And when I got into the trade, itwas all white men knuckle draggers,
um, and it was just a macho contest.
But, , over the decadesit is slowly changing.
(28:10):
We're seeing more women in the trades now.
We're seeing,, moreethnicity in the trades now.
There is going to be approximately13 percent of the construction
industry employees are retiringin the next two to three years.
(28:30):
We need to do something toencourage people to stay, and we
need to do things to encouragepeople to enter into the trades.
And, I think with, with yoursituation, you've definitely presented
some of the problems that we needto address and improve in order to
(28:52):
actually have this industry thrive.
Jessica (28:56):
And like, I don't speak for the entire community.
I only speak for my own lived experience.
And I guarantee you there's going to bepeople in our community that probably
won't agree with what I say, and I mightnot agree with what they say, but as a
whole, I feel like progress is being made.
And that initiatives like pride andconstruction and initiatives, um, like
(29:22):
what you're doing right now, even justspeaking about it and broadcasting this
to your audience is helping normalize it.
It's helping give that visualand audible representation.
to help peel back the blinders.
Zack (29:39):
I think that's going to be one of the most important
steps is just knowledge.
Right?
We, I mean, as Jason and I talkedto you before we started recording,
like we are just, we don't know.
What we don't know.
And we don't know a lot about this topic.
So we're, thrilled to have you on.
Uh, do you happen to know anystatistics of what is the percentage
(30:01):
of, uh, queer within construction?
Do you have any stats likethat, that, you know, or not?
Yeah,
Jessica (30:15):
facts because a lot of queer people in the industry
don't disclose that they're queer.
They're too afraid to, right?
In the original Pride and Construction,we did a call out for people to
send us their, um, their life storyabout being queer in the industry.
(30:35):
And we had hundreds of peoplewrite in to us from Germany, the
UK, Australia, South Africa, SouthAmerica, all across North America.
And it was fascinating that withall of these people that wrote
in, think there was three gay men.
(30:56):
out of all of them it just it goes toshow what kind of a stigma it is to be
a gay male or male identifying person inthe trades and being open about it right
like that that really took me back when Itook a look at just that ratio of people
(31:16):
who took the time to write in but back toyour original question it's hard to have
those stats because there aren't any right
Zack (31:26):
Uh, tell us a little bit about Pride and Construction.
And, like I mentioned, we're goingto have DiversiTrade on our next
episode, the other two directors.
So maybe tell us about Prideand Construction and then, how
that led to DiversiTrade,but don't spoil the surprise.
J (31:42):
So pride in construction was 2021 a few years after i came out i
was fed up with it after calling outthis iron worker it was like enough
is enough and i put a call out onFacebook called Alberta Women in Trades.
Uh, and the founder of that, who is afriend of mine, Miriam Giordi, Uh, she
(32:07):
got me in touch with six other queerpeople who were in like circumstance.
And we all met and we just, we plannedlike this whole, I don't even know
how to say it, like this grassrootsmovement of like, how can we disrupt?
How can we kind of put thisout there and throw our
insecurities back on the industry?
(32:30):
And throughout 2021 during Prideseason, With all the media coverage
and the global people writing in, andit was just, it was something that
none of us expected us it to get to.
But after that, once that season calmeddown and product construction was winding
down a little bit, uh, through thewinter months, Miriam introduced me to
(32:53):
the other two directors of DiversiTrade.
DiversiTrade wasn't a thing yet,but we were all like-minded.
We wanted to help the underrepresentedcommunities in the trades, right.
And, obviously being through the AlbertaWomen in Trades group, they really
wanted to support women, and as do I.
And I really wanted to support the queercommunity, but it's like there's so many
(33:15):
other underrepresented communities thatwe could be helping at the same time.
And we kind of just, we tookour own blinders off, our own
preferences, and we're like, wehave to help like everyone, right?
Whoever needs the help, wehave to be there for them.
And that's kind of how DiversiTradegot started, so to speak.
(33:37):
Between the three of us, theother two are absolutely amazing.
I'm blessed to be working with them.
I won't say too much about it becauseI don't want to ruin your next episode.
Jason (33:48):
Well, not to put a, I don't know, not to, not to
be a downer, but I mean, thisis some pretty heavy stuff.
And so, where should people that arehaving a hard time dealing with the
stresses that we've been describing.
Where would you recommendthat they go to get support if
they feel like they're alone?
Je (34:10):
Oh goodness, there's so many different scenarios of isolation.
Um, if they're in the industryand they have benefits definitely
look into your employee assistanceprogram for some sort of help.
I know Open Circle, they have a reallygood mental health hotline that you can
call there's also organizations likeCalgary Pride or The Skipping Stone
(34:35):
Foundation for Gender NonconformingYouth and Young Adults, the Airdrie
Pride Society, SafeLink Alberta.
all of these different organizationsthat are there for different reasons.
including addictions and if itreally comes down to it and you feel
like you're really up against thewall, there's always the, suicide
(34:55):
hotline as well that you should reachout to because you're never alone.
Jason (35:00):
Well, thanks.
I, that was a pretty heavy questionfor me to to throw at you there,
and I think you answered itwonderfully, so I appreciate that.
Jessica (35:10):
And like for what it's worth, they can also reach
out to us at DiversiTrade.
Like if they want to speak to myself,They can always reach out to me as well.
.
Zack (35:19):
How could people learn Where's the best place?
So they can reachout to us at diversatrade.
ca.
Um, they can email us athello at diversatrade.
ca or even my personaljessica.loney@diversitrade.ca.
(35:42):
Uh, if they really needsomeone to talk to as well,
So tomorrow I'm, you know, hypothetical situation here.
I'm going to a constructionsite to work like normal.
What's something small I can do to helpother people feel more welcome if I don't
know the situation that they might be in?
Jessica (36:06):
Just be respectful.
Um, One of the biggest things is likeif you're an ally And like I know that
both of you are you have a respect forthe community you support us Obviously
by having me here speaking towards it.
You're trying to give thatrepresentation as well Um, don't just
be an ally in front of us, right?
(36:29):
take that attitude take thatlanguage take your mannerisms into
every every room, every situation.
I wouldn't say, like, pretend thatthere's someone queer in the room with
you at all times, but just stop beingan ally just because we're not there.
If someone makes the inappropriatejoke, call them out on it, right?
Zack (36:57):
I think, uh, and that's the hard thing, right?
I think we all, we all have allbeen in those situations where
you're uncomfortable to speak up,but I think that it, it can just
make the world of difference.
So good
Jason (37:09):
Yeah, it just takes a little bit of maturity.
Jessica, on June 7th, SAIT.
Held a Pride in Construction, event, canyou just talk about some of the takeaways
and the successes from that event
Jess (37:24):
Yeah, so from the original Pride in Construction just being this
grassroots initiative, it's kind ofover the years grown into something a
bit more formal through DiversiTrade.
Um, pride in construction is nowkind of like under the diverse
trade umbrella, so to speak, butwe really put it in a more like I
(37:48):
said, an official capacity this year.
So on June the 7th, we partneredup with SAIT, TC Energy, the
WIT committee at SAIT, Women inTrades and Technology, Radio.
There was a bunch of people,Elliston, PCL, Grand Construction,
Yard Egg Construction,Energy, Modern Niagara, right?
(38:11):
The Skipping Stone Foundation, SafeLink.
Like, all of these organizations cameout to SAIT, to the Aldridge Center, and
we, we showed the apprentices on site,we showed the industry in Calgary that
it's okay to be gay in construction.
And that it's okay to be yourself, andthat there are companies out there.
(38:35):
will support you andsee you for who you are.
And not only that, they willcelebrate it and their doors wide
with a great big welcome and agiant rainbow flag, so to speak.
And it was, it was fantastic.
Uh, students at first, it wasinto the hundreds and then
(38:56):
it obviously tapered off.
But, at around two o'clock we then helda live panel discussion, uh, where I
was the moderator and we had, um, JennaNakamura, who is the DEI officer for SAIT.
She was the one that kindof did some introductions.
(39:17):
We had Laura Murphy from Ryan MurphyConstruction also do some introductions.
And then we had one of SAIT'sown faculty, um, Jane Durango.
And Jane is awesome.
I know you both know Jane.
A lot
Zack (39:32):
Yeah.
Jessica (39:33):
goes out to Jane, uh, being a carpentry instructor.
She was one of the panelists.
We also had Tammy Amstutz from the CalgaryConstruction Association, uh, who deals
with workforce strategies and like,retention rates and how to do recruitment.
And just, she's the lady thatloves the data, the hard numbers.
(39:57):
And then we were going to havea DEI expert from Modern Niagara
come on, but she wasn't able to.
So we actually had Dustin Victorcome on, who's this up and coming
star from Ellis Dawn, uh, in theDEI community, fill in for, this
person and he did a fantastic job.
(40:18):
So the whole point behind it was wehad the academics represented, we had
the industry represented, and we hadthe, the company level represented.
Through that panel and then myselfrepresenting the workforce as the
moderator asking the questionsand it was I felt a lot of people
(40:39):
that were there that observedit took something home that day.
There was value add for their attendance.
And SAIT absolutely loved it.
Speaking with several of the,deans, the Dean for the School of
Construction, the Dean of Apprenticeship,they loved what we were doing.
(40:59):
The WIT committee loved what we did.
So I feel like this might be anannual thing that we do at SAIT.
Jason (41:08):
Next time we do it, I'm gonna know what DEI means.
Diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Okay, I was good on two of the three.
Okay, thank you.
Zac (41:20):
We both were in attendance.
Like we both came, it was awesome.
It was fantastic.
Like you could have told me it was your10th year and I would have believed you.
It was so well organized,so smooth, welcoming space.
And, that the panel discussion,like you said, was just incredible.
So I think that.
I walked away with lots, lotsof knowledge, lots of curiosity.
(41:40):
It's, it's kind of what led usto having you on the show today.
Is Pride in Construction doing anyother initiatives, any other, work?
Jes (41:49):
Yeah, so right now, um, for myself with Pride in Construction, being
the Pride in Construction Chairperson.
I've had Pride at Work Canada reach outand they are doing a national roundtable
in August of whicDiversiTradede and Pridein Construction are going to be a part of.
Last Thursday, Pride at Work Canadawas actually in Calgary and held a
(42:12):
roundtable with the corporate sector andthey invited me to go and sit and just
kind of observe the process of what it'slike in the corporate world for DEI.
And also next Wednesday, uh,I'm doing a speaking engagement
for Suncor Energy in conjunctionwith Skipping Stone Foundation.
(42:35):
So there's, there's lotson the go right now.
Zack (42:39):
I think it's amazing that, you know, three ish years ago,
you, you found your voice and nowyou're, shouting from the rooftops.
It's pretty, it's pretty empowering.
It's very cool stuff.
You have to keep it up.
You're, you're making a difference.
So we really appreciate that.
I think we are all wrapped up andlike, I just got to say, I mean, I
appreciate you coming on the show
Jessica (42:59):
yeah, absolutely.
It was a pleasure coming on here .., I'mglad that, uh, I didn't wind up
saying certain words that I did.
in the
Zack (43:06):
That's okay.
Jessica (43:07):
event.
Jason (43:08):
I, I think we all did exceptionally well.
Je (43:11):
absolutely and like, I don't think that there was one point where
either of you would have offendedanyone through this whole process.
You were very kind in theway that you worded things.
Jason (43:23):
Well, that was our intent, so thanks for that.
Zack (43:27):
That wraps up our episode with Jessica.
And I'm looking forward to our nextepisode where we're going to sit
down with DisversiTrade speaking withFietje and Carmen two of the other
two co-founders from diverse to trade.
As always, Jason, I couldn't be morehappy that you are here listening
to our podcast, trying to learnmore about the electrical industry.
It's one that's near and dear to us.
We are passionate about it.
(43:47):
And we're looking forward tomaking lots more episodes coming
up for the rest of the year.
If you have anything you wantto say to us, please reach out.
Get in touch Instagram, Facebook.
Send us an email go to our website.
Any of those things we're lookingfor more ideas for episodes.
Most importantly, if you like somethingthat you've heard on this show.
Tell a friend, subscribe, leave a review.
Anything to help get the word out there.
(44:09):
We do this because we like it.
And we hope that you like it too.
Thanks so much for listening.
Have a great day.
Hello everybody.
(00:00):
And welcome back to Watt's the wordan electrical industry podcast.
My name is Zack Hartle.
I'm joined as always by Jason Cox.
More importantly, we're going totalk to people from the electrical
industry to learn something new.
Thanks so much for comingback and listening.
Make sure that you subscribe wherever youlisten to podcasts and you can get more.
(00:20):
We've got lots of episodesin the works coming up soon.
Right now, June is pride monthand we're going to be talking
about pride and construction.
And I couldn't think of abetter guest to be talking with.
Let's get into it..
We're sitting today with Jessica Loney.
She is an advocate in the pridecommunity in construction.
(00:42):
she's a co founder of pride andconstruction now a director at
DiversiTrade, which interestinglyenough, we're going to have
DiversiTrade on, on our next episode.
But with it being pride month, wewanted to get Jessica on the show.
Like I mentioned, a huge advocatein the, LGBT Q2S+ Community.
She is a site supervisor andNCSO, a gold seal, a blue seal.
(01:05):
Definitely some more.
But Jessica, welcome to the show.
Welcome to Watt's the word.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Zack.
It's a pleasure to be here.
And of course, an electrician.
Jessica (01:15):
Absolutely.
Master electrician, RedSeal, safety codes officer.
Zack (01:21):
I think I got that in there somewhere, but that's okay.
Uh,
We'll, we'll find, we'll find out.
So, all right, we've got a lot to talk about today,
Jessica, um, Jason and I.
We're going to learn a lot.
, Making waves right now in theindustry, talking about pride,
talking about the challenges thatthat can have within the industry.
But first, just tell us about yourself.
Tell us, you know, Jessica inthree minutes, how did you get to
(01:44):
where you are and we'll get moreinto your story later, I'm sure,
Jessica (01:48):
Oh goodness, that's a lot of uh, interesting stuff
to squeeze into three minutes.
So I started the trades in 2007 with alocal company called Grand West Electric.
been with them for 18 years now.
I got my Red Seal in 2011.
got my NCSO in 2013, um, my MasterElectrician in 2016, Safety Codes Officer
(02:13):
Gold Seal, stuff like that in 2019,but um, one of the biggest things kind
of chronologically was I came out as atransgender woman in the construction
industry in late 2019, um, and theindustry in Southern Alberta was not.
(02:35):
As accepting as it is now, it was quitedifficult at first, but there's been a
lot of progress made a lot of progresshard fought for, but we're here and
it's working out really well for us.
Jason (02:50):
Personally, myself, I've worked with some former staff members
that, that had a real hard time.
coming out.
Um, they, they basicallyhid their lifestyle choices.
So it's an awfully bravething for you to do.
I couldn't imagine just how, howdifficult that must have been.
Jess (03:09):
Well, it's, it's something that I've struggled with since the early
90s, but back then there wasn't thevocabulary, there wasn't the, and the
medical terminology, so to speak, likethere was still something, but like the
only representation that our communityhad was like Jerry Springer Maury, right?
(03:29):
And it was something like shameful.
Jaso (03:34):
In the 90s, yeah, I took a sociology course and, um, And it covered
all sorts of different lifestyles.
And we, we, we were introducedto a whole bunch of things.
I mean, it's early, early 90s.
And, and yeah, to think about what Ilearned back then and, and where we are
(03:55):
today and even in the last few years.
It's, I mean, it's aconstant, constant change.
And, and, and we're learningmore and more every day.
Jessica (04:06):
Absolutely.
There's always that forward movement.
But like when I first came out, a lot ofthe people that were in my close circle,
they knew me prior to coming out, right?
So like there was still that conceptionof who I was versus who I am.
And lot of people foundthat difficult to deal with.
(04:27):
There wasn't a lot of support around that.
They didn't know how to.
I wouldn't say act, but how toconduct themselves around me.
Jason (04:35):
was one of the talking points that Zack and I were
talking about the other day.
It was like, unintendeddistractions, right?
Like, you don't, like, it's, there'san awkwardness to, I mean, I've
even, just talking to you today, I'mtrying my best to not offend anyone.
I mean, but we're all,all trying to learn.
And I, I think that eventually thiswill become, um, fairly normal.
(05:02):
Uh, when I, when I speak with mychildren, they grew up with, with
trans, students in their schools.
It's something that they, transand gay students, it was something
that they were comfortable with andto them that was a normal thing.
So, I, I think that thereare changes happening.
But, Kind of, but it's a little differentin the classroom when you're growing up
(05:25):
with these people and you're changing.
Uh, I, I think we've kind ofalluded that it is getting better.
We are learning more in all areas.
But like, what are some of thechallenges still today the Pride
community is facing with, employmentin the construction industry?
Zack (05:43):
and, just, maybe get my head around this too.
Is it.
Are we get is the constructionindustry as a whole?
Are we, we're probably slowerto adopt and be more accepting.
I would imagine.
Like, is that, have you noticed that aswell inside the industry versus outside
a different change of, , acceptance?
Jessic (06:02):
it's kind of interesting because I just sat in on a
roundtable with Pride at Work.
But it was for like the corporate legalindustry, that sector, so office space.
And, All I could think of was like,this is completely different than
what it's like on a construction site.
Right?
Um, this industry, the demographicthat's currently employed by this
(06:28):
industry, they're a little bit slowerto be more open minded when it comes
to concepts around gender identity andsexual orientation, because construction
inherently is this hyper masculine.
industry, right?
Like you think of a constructionworker, it's these burly dudes, you
(06:50):
know, in work, blood, sweat, and tears.
And absolutely it is, but there'salso these other demographics that
are making their way in, right?
There's women, English for secondlanguage, black indigenous people
of color, the queer community.
Like, it's not so much onedefined demographic anymore.
(07:11):
It's, it's more broadened.
So slowly we're getting there.
When it comes to acceptance,but it's definitely progress
in the right direction.
Zack (07:24):
I, I at that time that happened either in the
industry or in your personal life thatmade it so that you were able to come out?
Like, what was the switch that flippedfor you, if you don't mind sharing?
Jessica (07:40):
Well for for me coming out It's like two different things.
There's like me coming out and thenthere's me finding my voice Right.
So like when I first came out, I waspretty so to speak I was more afraid
of like my surroundings but for me toactually physically come out I had to it.
(08:01):
It wasn't a choice I led this hypermasculine facade for so long both
in my professional and my personallife that, for lack of better words,
it would have killed me, right?
And I'm here today and I'm grateful forbeing here today because I was able to
be honest with myself and I was ableto be honest with the people around me.
(08:24):
But, um, even my coming out story, like,I had the help of Virgin Radio coming out.
I came out to the entire city at once.
Live on air, uh, as well asthe owners of my company.
They flew in from Vancouverto have a staff meeting.
In Virgin Radio, they weren't evensupposed to air it until three
(08:44):
o'clock in the afternoon, butthey had it like on repeat drive
in the morning and everything.
So like, all of my co workers werecalling me like, what the hell is this?
What the hell is So, kind ofruined the surprise there, but
um, coming out saved my life.
But then there was a longrough patch after coming out.
(09:06):
Um, There was vandalism, peoplemessed with my tools, people messed
with my equipment, I had screws leftin the tires of my work truck, I
had cups of urine left on my scissorlift, bathroom was destroyed, um,
the wheel, one of the wheels on myscissor lift, someone had loosened all
(09:27):
of the bolts that held the wheel on.
And as I was doing my pre-useinspection, the wheel fell off.
If I didn't do my pre-use inspectionand I elevated on that thing with that
wheel falling off, I could have died.
Like there's all of these things thathappened that kind of got me fed up with
the industry, so to speak, just likethe, culture of the industry and like how
(09:52):
it's treated people that were different.
So that kind of started likebuilding up the frustration of it.
But the big catalyst that got me to findmy voice after coming out was the It
didn't even really have to do with me.
It was someone else on a job site.
And for those in construction,they'll know exactly the setting.
(10:15):
It was a hot summer day.
were all working a slab, right?
So form works up, the rebar's down,plumbers are laying out their cans,
electricians are pulling their coreline between boxes, Rod busters
are breaking everything on deck.
The usual.
(10:35):
And the ironworker foreman wasjust screaming at this kid, just
belittling him in front of everyone.
And um, I couldn't take it anymore.
this, this kid, he was like maybe18, 19, still wet behind the ears, so
to speak, like didn't know anything.
(10:57):
And this guy just yelled at him foreight hours a day, just constantly.
And no one said anything to him.
Um, you give the warning foroffensive language at all?
Zack (11:10):
Yeah, you're good.
can imagine, yeah, I can imaginejust, I mean, the, the one of the things
that we're kind of stepping around it,but there is, there is, there is that
Neanderthal bully attitude in the tradesthat is apparently, finding its way out.
But I, I have been that person thathas been tormented in the past, and
(11:35):
it's, yeah, it, you wouldn't see thatin, in any other industry, and I mean,
that's something I think that we're,we're trying to improve, for sure.
Jessica (11:46):
well, that's the big thing is I told this guy, you
know, take it out on me and thenwatch how fast you'll get off site.
But I did it in such a waythat everyone, like all 50 plus
people on that deck, notice.
And it, it was just this hugeshift in the culture, not only on
(12:06):
that site, but like within my ownprofessional development as well.
It let me feel that itwas okay to have a voice.
J (12:16):
So it sounds like, and one of the things I was, I was thinking about
is, obviously, you've got all of thisthat's happened to you personally,
and then in your professional life.
And then this one incident, and many ofus have been in situations where there's
someone that is just acting, acting beyondhorrible to someone and the harassment
(12:38):
and the bullying is just unspeakable.
So it sounds like this was one ofthose moments where you were actually
now propelled in and even volunteeredor were in a situation where you
then became the advocate for thatindividual and, and also for yourself.
Yeah.
Je (12:55):
Well, in that moment, it was just, I had to do something, but then
I took that moment and I ran with it.
I kind of kept that momentum going andI met up with six other queer people
in the industry who are all havinglike circumstance, um, what they're
going through on the job, right.
(13:16):
Um, with the harassment and bullyingand just the, the bullshit, right.
And that's kind of how prideand construction started.
Was when we had enough and with thatwe started to get the attention of
the media, , different podcasts like,uh, Josh Zolan, Blue is the New White.
(13:40):
We were We were on his,
yeah, he's a great, great show.
I've act, I've actuallybeen on his show as well.
And yeah, the work he'sdoing is incredible.
Just his advocacy forthe trades in general.
So,
Jessica (13:51):
absolutely.
And then, you know, CTV and like nationalpanels with Ellis Dawn and Build a
Dream and, and in that summer of 2021,we actually got pride flags to fly on
construction sites Alberta, and that waskind of like an unheard thing, right?
It was never happened before, so we knewthat there was this shift happening, and
(14:16):
we just kept, kept that momentum going.
So you've mentioned, so one ofmy, one of my just canned questions here
was, who are your biggest supporters?
Obviously you've just mentioned a wholebunch of people there or entities.
Um, where do we need moresupport moving forward?
(14:42):
There's so many different places, um,
I think lot of times people have thisconception Any good culture starts
top down and like granted, yes,when management buys in, it pours
down to the rest of the workforce.
I totally get that, but there's all ofthese companies that are making these
(15:07):
policies in the office and they'reall high fiving each other, like they
did such a great job, but it doesn'ttranslate to the workers on site.
There's no education.
There's no follow up.
If someone does, pardon me, go out oftheir way and become malicious on site.
(15:28):
There's no like reprimand for it.
There's nothing that happens.
It goes By the wayside and it's just Ifeel like the the workers on site need
to have That type of support like theeducation support the awareness support
(15:50):
And just the freedom to be themselves.
And then that could also trickle down intothe employers like Employee assistance
programs their EAPs their benefitsbetter mental health benefits Right.
Like a lot of construction workers,we have maybe 500 a year go see
a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
(16:11):
And that's like two visits.
Jason (16:13):
Right.
Jessica (16:14):
are you going to accomplish in two hours?
Right.
And it's just, there's all of thesethings are like gender affirming benefits.
That's another one.
Um, and that, that corporate worldthat I spoke of a bit earlier.
huge on that, right?
Like, my partner worked for Deloitte for awhile, and while she was with them, their
(16:37):
gender affirming benefits gave me, like,25, 000 a year to do whatever I needed
to with, up to 100, 000 in a lifetime.
Like, that's huge.
We don't see that in construction.
They had 4, 000 a year in, like, medicalbenefits, like, for mental health.
(16:59):
Yeah, that could, that definitelycould be life changing right there.
Yeah.
eight times as much as the construction industry.
Zac (17:06):
which we, I think we've all heard the stats about how construction
industry just in general has sucha poor mental health overall.
Right.
Je (17:16):
I think they're pretty close to men in the construction industry are
40 times more likely to commit suicideand like the numbers are staggering.
When we were at the, DiversiTrade was atthe program advisory committee at SAIT in
February and just some of the stats thatwe heard around mental health and suicide
rates and, um, just the numbers affectingmore, especially men in the construction
(17:41):
industry was just, it was breathtaking.
Jason (17:46):
Well, I, I mean, it was a lot of, uh, self medication
through drugs and alcohol, right?
That's, that's, that was myexperience back in, in industry.
It seemed that the bigger the stressbecame, the, the more you just self
medicated with alcohol or drugs.
Je (18:06):
But it wasn't even just self medicating, it was almost celebrated.
Right?
Like, oh, what'd you do this weekend?
Oh, I went out and I got trashed forthree days and I'm still hungover.
And everyone, again, high fiveseach other like, oh, that's awesome.
Right?
But that, that's changing.
That was like ten years ago at least.
And it hasn't been like thatto that degree for a while.
(18:30):
But that's where it was, andthat's where it was coming from.
Jason (18:34):
Yeah, those, those days are shooting far between now
for, for an old guy like me.
Yeah.
So.
Jessica (18:42):
You still get the young guns that like to party.
Jason (18:45):
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's quite interesting, uh.
Zack (18:48):
the party, it's, that's what matters, I guess.
Jessica (18:51):
But it comes back to those supports, right?
And like another thing that would begreat for support would be the ability
for the employees to ask for help worryof reprimand, to be able to be honest with
the employer and say, I have a problemwith this, this, and this, without fear
(19:11):
of losing their job or fear of beingostracized, through their organization.
Zack (19:20):
So obviously the employer that you work for is great.
I mean, they, you, like you said,you've been with them, I think
you said 18 years was the number.
They helped you, you I'm sure have helpedwork with them to improve things there.
What kind of stuff are you tryingto get put in place at your
employer that you wish otheremployers would kind of follow suit
Jessica (19:40):
So like prior to me transitioning, I knew that it was coming.
Not only am I like a master electriciansite supervisor, but I'm also the health
and safety coordinator for the company.
I started putting policies in placelike the anti bullying and harassment
policy and the anti violence policy andthe drug and alcohol policy, like all
(20:02):
of these things that followed specificmodels to put protections in place,
not only for myself, but those thatare like me within the organization.
And I made sure to specifically callout the protected classes within
the Charter of Human Rights andFreedoms, as well as the Alberta Human
Rights Act, um, like your gender,gender identity, sexual orientation,
(20:25):
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I made sure to specifically mentionthose, within those policies.
But some things that, I'd really liketo put in place would be, again, looking
at the Employee Assistance Program.
So I'm working with our employer,who's with OpenCircle currently.
Used to be Merit.
(20:47):
And we're exploring options with themaround mental health and addictions and,
just those kinds of areas, so to speak,to give each individual employee the
support that they need outside of work,as well as being able to support them
with policies inside of the workplace.
Zac (21:09):
Once we have these policies in place, which so many companies
do have something similar.
I mean, it sounds like yours areprobably a little bit more thoughtful
and, intentional with their wording,but how are we taking those policies
and implementing them on site and justtrying to build that community, uh or safe
space on the actual construction site?
(21:30):
What are the little stepsday to day you're doing?
Jessica (21:34):
So, I think one of the biggest things that a lot of
companies don't get is, they haveto work with the stakeholders that
the policies are written about.
So, a lot of these companies,first, like you said, a lot of these
companies have something in place.
For a lot of places,it's just a box to tick.
(21:55):
It's a requirement.
It's like this necessity thing.
So, if it's not, like, actually wanted.
It's just done because it has to.
So right there, if that's theculture, it's already failed.
But then on top of that, you can't justbe sitting in an office writing up this
five, 10, however long page document.
(22:18):
And again, high fiving all the projectmanagers and the ownership, right?
Saying, look at how awesome we are whenyou didn't even talk to anyone on site.
You didn't consult with them.
You didn't talk to the queerpeople inside your organization.
You didn't talk to the trans person.
You didn't talk to thegay men or the lesbian.
You didn't actually get their insightof what would be helpful for them
(22:42):
specifically to your company's needs.
Cause every company is different, right?
Culture's different.
Ownership's different.
Structure's different.
Um, the methodology is kind of thesame, but you have to engage with the
people that the policy is meant for.
You can't just write something andexpect everyone to adhere to it if
(23:05):
they've never even seen it and you'venever talked to them about it before.
It's forcing something on them thata lot of people in our industry are
already kind of hesitant to buy into.
And by having that engagement withthem by asking questions and having
their input and having them put theirtouch, their finesse on that policy,
(23:28):
it helps with the buy-in right.
Cause it's like, Hey, I helped with this.
This is a part of me.
I contributed to this.
It means something now.
And if you get everyone in on it, likeeven if you go site to site and you just
do a toolbox meeting and you speak aboutit and you have just kind of a Q and a,
and everyone gives their feedback, thenyou have that company wide buy in because
(23:54):
they were all part of that process.
Right.
I think that's one of the strongestthings that you need to do to be able
to get it from the office to the site.
is to start by working withthe site before bringing it
to the office for sign off.
Jason (24:09):
Yeah, and definitely more than just a checkbox.
And as, as we're having this conversation,I'm, like, I don't know what the
statistics are of, of how many of the, thegay, lesbian, queer community are actually
in construction, like 1%, 2%, 10%.
I don't know.
But, but one of the things from thisis that it's going to make the, if we
(24:34):
can have policies and procedures andbehaviors, like this, we're going
to lead to having a safer worksite.
Jessica (24:42):
Absolutely, like safety isn't just the physical aspect,
the psychological aspect as well.
J (24:49):
I have to look at it from the examples that I ran across and I ran
across a couple of times with likereally, really serious bullying on sites.
And I mean, obviously just yourstory, I mean, is way beyond
anything I would ever imagine.
Yeah, this, this could make,the job safer for everyone.
(25:12):
If people are able to come to work and just be themselves and they
don't have to have this facade goingon, they're not distracted, right?
Efficiency will go up, safety willgo up, productivity will go up,
buy in to the vision gets stronger.
Right in that thatcohesiveness of the team.
(25:36):
Um, teamwork makes the dream work, right?
Like everything becomes better
And like you said, like if we can.
Make everybody comfortable atwork and bring more people to
the site and have them be moreproductive and more efficient.
And word's going to spreadquickly to that construction.
You can be who you want to be.
(25:56):
You can come to work and we'regoing to add to the workforce.
We're looking at a skilled workershortage coming up in the next few years.
I mean, I think that solving or improvingpride in construction and Acceptance
on construction sites isn't going tosolve just one problem, but it's going
to help with so many other problems.
Jessica (26:19):
Absolutely.
it will make those who are alreadyin the industry want to stay.
it will increase retention rates,but on top of that, it will become
more attractive to the youngergeneration because right now the
construction industry has this image.
Right, and it's it's an image problem.
(26:43):
For lack of a better terminology, it'sstraight, it's white, it's middle aged,
it's hyper masculine, all of these things.
And the industry is so focused onthat demographic that they're missing
out on so many talented people, somany hard working, talented people
that are afraid to step into theindustry they don't fit that box.
(27:09):
And I think that if we open up ourdoors and like take those blinders
off, we can definitely help alleviatethat skilled labor shortage.
And not just with the queer community,but like I said before, what DiversiTrade
does is like women, English for secondlanguage, indigenous people of color,
and the queer community, like all ofthose underrepresented communities.
(27:32):
We try to promote and help navigate theapprenticeship process and help empower
employers, to be able to make meaningfulemployment for these demographics.
Jason (27:47):
Like I've been in the construction industry now for 30 years.
And when I got into the trade, itwas all white men knuckle draggers,
um, and it was just a macho contest.
But, , over the decadesit is slowly changing.
(28:10):
We're seeing more women in the trades now.
We're seeing,, moreethnicity in the trades now.
There is going to be approximately13 percent of the construction
industry employees are retiringin the next two to three years.
(28:30):
We need to do something toencourage people to stay, and we
need to do things to encouragepeople to enter into the trades.
And, I think with, with yoursituation, you've definitely presented
some of the problems that we needto address and improve in order to
(28:52):
actually have this industry thrive.
Jessica (28:56):
And like, I don't speak for the entire community.
I only speak for my own lived experience.
And I guarantee you there's going to bepeople in our community that probably
won't agree with what I say, and I mightnot agree with what they say, but as a
whole, I feel like progress is being made.
And that initiatives like pride andconstruction and initiatives, um, like
(29:22):
what you're doing right now, even justspeaking about it and broadcasting this
to your audience is helping normalize it.
It's helping give that visualand audible representation.
to help peel back the blinders.
Zack (29:39):
I think that's going to be one of the most important
steps is just knowledge.
Right?
We, I mean, as Jason and I talkedto you before we started recording,
like we are just, we don't know.
What we don't know.
And we don't know a lot about this topic.
So we're, thrilled to have you on.
Uh, do you happen to know anystatistics of what is the percentage
(30:01):
of, uh, queer within construction?
Do you have any stats likethat, that, you know, or not?
Yeah,
Jessica (30:15):
facts because a lot of queer people in the industry
don't disclose that they're queer.
They're too afraid to, right?
In the original Pride and Construction,we did a call out for people to
send us their, um, their life storyabout being queer in the industry.
(30:35):
And we had hundreds of peoplewrite in to us from Germany, the
UK, Australia, South Africa, SouthAmerica, all across North America.
And it was fascinating that withall of these people that wrote
in, think there was three gay men.
(30:56):
out of all of them it just it goes toshow what kind of a stigma it is to be
a gay male or male identifying person inthe trades and being open about it right
like that that really took me back when Itook a look at just that ratio of people
(31:16):
who took the time to write in but back toyour original question it's hard to have
those stats because there aren't any right
Zack (31:26):
Uh, tell us a little bit about Pride and Construction.
And, like I mentioned, we're goingto have DiversiTrade on our next
episode, the other two directors.
So maybe tell us about Prideand Construction and then, how
that led to DiversiTrade,but don't spoil the surprise.
J (31:42):
So pride in construction was 2021 a few years after i came out i
was fed up with it after calling outthis iron worker it was like enough
is enough and i put a call out onFacebook called Alberta Women in Trades.
Uh, and the founder of that, who is afriend of mine, Miriam Giordi, Uh, she
(32:07):
got me in touch with six other queerpeople who were in like circumstance.
And we all met and we just, we plannedlike this whole, I don't even know
how to say it, like this grassrootsmovement of like, how can we disrupt?
How can we kind of put thisout there and throw our
insecurities back on the industry?
(32:30):
And throughout 2021 during Prideseason, With all the media coverage
and the global people writing in, andit was just, it was something that
none of us expected us it to get to.
But after that, once that season calmeddown and product construction was winding
down a little bit, uh, through thewinter months, Miriam introduced me to
(32:53):
the other two directors of DiversiTrade.
DiversiTrade wasn't a thing yet,but we were all like-minded.
We wanted to help the underrepresentedcommunities in the trades, right.
And, obviously being through the AlbertaWomen in Trades group, they really
wanted to support women, and as do I.
And I really wanted to support the queercommunity, but it's like there's so many
(33:15):
other underrepresented communities thatwe could be helping at the same time.
And we kind of just, we tookour own blinders off, our own
preferences, and we're like, wehave to help like everyone, right?
Whoever needs the help, wehave to be there for them.
And that's kind of how DiversiTradegot started, so to speak.
(33:37):
Between the three of us, theother two are absolutely amazing.
I'm blessed to be working with them.
I won't say too much about it becauseI don't want to ruin your next episode.
Jason (33:48):
Well, not to put a, I don't know, not to, not to
be a downer, but I mean, thisis some pretty heavy stuff.
And so, where should people that arehaving a hard time dealing with the
stresses that we've been describing.
Where would you recommendthat they go to get support if
they feel like they're alone?
Je (34:10):
Oh goodness, there's so many different scenarios of isolation.
Um, if they're in the industryand they have benefits definitely
look into your employee assistanceprogram for some sort of help.
I know Open Circle, they have a reallygood mental health hotline that you can
call there's also organizations likeCalgary Pride or The Skipping Stone
(34:35):
Foundation for Gender NonconformingYouth and Young Adults, the Airdrie
Pride Society, SafeLink Alberta.
all of these different organizationsthat are there for different reasons.
including addictions and if itreally comes down to it and you feel
like you're really up against thewall, there's always the, suicide
(34:55):
hotline as well that you should reachout to because you're never alone.
Jason (35:00):
Well, thanks.
I, that was a pretty heavy questionfor me to to throw at you there,
and I think you answered itwonderfully, so I appreciate that.
Jessica (35:10):
And like for what it's worth, they can also reach
out to us at DiversiTrade.
Like if they want to speak to myself,They can always reach out to me as well.
.
Zack (35:19):
How could people learn Where's the best place?
So they can reachout to us at diversatrade.
ca.
Um, they can email us athello at diversatrade.
ca or even my personaljessica.loney@diversitrade.ca.
(35:42):
Uh, if they really needsomeone to talk to as well,
So tomorrow I'm, you know, hypothetical situation here.
I'm going to a constructionsite to work like normal.
What's something small I can do to helpother people feel more welcome if I don't
know the situation that they might be in?
Jessica (36:06):
Just be respectful.
Um, One of the biggest things is likeif you're an ally And like I know that
both of you are you have a respect forthe community you support us Obviously
by having me here speaking towards it.
You're trying to give thatrepresentation as well Um, don't just
be an ally in front of us, right?
(36:29):
take that attitude take thatlanguage take your mannerisms into
every every room, every situation.
I wouldn't say, like, pretend thatthere's someone queer in the room with
you at all times, but just stop beingan ally just because we're not there.
If someone makes the inappropriatejoke, call them out on it, right?
Zack (36:57):
I think, uh, and that's the hard thing, right?
I think we all, we all have allbeen in those situations where
you're uncomfortable to speak up,but I think that it, it can just
make the world of difference.
So good
Jason (37:09):
Yeah, it just takes a little bit of maturity.
Jessica, on June 7th, SAIT.
Held a Pride in Construction, event, canyou just talk about some of the takeaways
and the successes from that event
Jess (37:24):
Yeah, so from the original Pride in Construction just being this
grassroots initiative, it's kind ofover the years grown into something a
bit more formal through DiversiTrade.
Um, pride in construction is nowkind of like under the diverse
trade umbrella, so to speak, butwe really put it in a more like I
(37:48):
said, an official capacity this year.
So on June the 7th, we partneredup with SAIT, TC Energy, the
WIT committee at SAIT, Women inTrades and Technology, Radio.
There was a bunch of people,Elliston, PCL, Grand Construction,
Yard Egg Construction,Energy, Modern Niagara, right?
(38:11):
The Skipping Stone Foundation, SafeLink.
Like, all of these organizations cameout to SAIT, to the Aldridge Center, and
we, we showed the apprentices on site,we showed the industry in Calgary that
it's okay to be gay in construction.
And that it's okay to be yourself, andthat there are companies out there.
(38:35):
will support you andsee you for who you are.
And not only that, they willcelebrate it and their doors wide
with a great big welcome and agiant rainbow flag, so to speak.
And it was, it was fantastic.
Uh, students at first, it wasinto the hundreds and then
(38:56):
it obviously tapered off.
But, at around two o'clock we then helda live panel discussion, uh, where I
was the moderator and we had, um, JennaNakamura, who is the DEI officer for SAIT.
She was the one that kindof did some introductions.
(39:17):
We had Laura Murphy from Ryan MurphyConstruction also do some introductions.
And then we had one of SAIT'sown faculty, um, Jane Durango.
And Jane is awesome.
I know you both know Jane.
A lot
Zack (39:32):
Yeah.
Jessica (39:33):
goes out to Jane, uh, being a carpentry instructor.
She was one of the panelists.
We also had Tammy Amstutz from the CalgaryConstruction Association, uh, who deals
with workforce strategies and like,retention rates and how to do recruitment.
And just, she's the lady thatloves the data, the hard numbers.
(39:57):
And then we were going to havea DEI expert from Modern Niagara
come on, but she wasn't able to.
So we actually had Dustin Victorcome on, who's this up and coming
star from Ellis Dawn, uh, in theDEI community, fill in for, this
person and he did a fantastic job.
(40:18):
So the whole point behind it was wehad the academics represented, we had
the industry represented, and we hadthe, the company level represented.
Through that panel and then myselfrepresenting the workforce as the
moderator asking the questionsand it was I felt a lot of people
(40:39):
that were there that observedit took something home that day.
There was value add for their attendance.
And SAIT absolutely loved it.
Speaking with several of the,deans, the Dean for the School of
Construction, the Dean of Apprenticeship,they loved what we were doing.
(40:59):
The WIT committee loved what we did.
So I feel like this might be anannual thing that we do at SAIT.
Jason (41:08):
Next time we do it, I'm gonna know what DEI means.
Diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Okay, I was good on two of the three.
Okay, thank you.
Zac (41:20):
We both were in attendance.
Like we both came, it was awesome.
It was fantastic.
Like you could have told me it was your10th year and I would have believed you.
It was so well organized,so smooth, welcoming space.
And, that the panel discussion,like you said, was just incredible.
So I think that.
I walked away with lots, lotsof knowledge, lots of curiosity.
(41:40):
It's, it's kind of what led usto having you on the show today.
Is Pride in Construction doing anyother initiatives, any other, work?
Jes (41:49):
Yeah, so right now, um, for myself with Pride in Construction, being
the Pride in Construction Chairperson.
I've had Pride at Work Canada reach outand they are doing a national roundtable
in August of whicDiversiTradede and Pridein Construction are going to be a part of.
Last Thursday, Pride at Work Canadawas actually in Calgary and held a
(42:12):
roundtable with the corporate sector andthey invited me to go and sit and just
kind of observe the process of what it'slike in the corporate world for DEI.
And also next Wednesday, uh,I'm doing a speaking engagement
for Suncor Energy in conjunctionwith Skipping Stone Foundation.
(42:35):
So there's, there's lotson the go right now.
Zack (42:39):
I think it's amazing that, you know, three ish years ago,
you, you found your voice and nowyou're, shouting from the rooftops.
It's pretty, it's pretty empowering.
It's very cool stuff.
You have to keep it up.
You're, you're making a difference.
So we really appreciate that.
I think we are all wrapped up andlike, I just got to say, I mean, I
appreciate you coming on the show
Jessica (42:59):
yeah, absolutely.
It was a pleasure coming on here .., I'mglad that, uh, I didn't wind up
saying certain words that I did.
in the
Zack (43:06):
That's okay.
Jessica (43:07):
event.
Jason (43:08):
I, I think we all did exceptionally well.
Je (43:11):
absolutely and like, I don't think that there was one point where
either of you would have offendedanyone through this whole process.
You were very kind in theway that you worded things.
Jason (43:23):
Well, that was our intent, so thanks for that.
Zack (43:27):
That wraps up our episode with Jessica.
And I'm looking forward to our nextepisode where we're going to sit
down with DisversiTrade speaking withFietje and Carmen two of the other
two co-founders from diverse to trade.
As always, Jason, I couldn't be morehappy that you are here listening
to our podcast, trying to learnmore about the electrical industry.
It's one that's near and dear to us.
We are passionate about it.
(43:47):
And we're looking forward tomaking lots more episodes coming
up for the rest of the year.
If you have anything you wantto say to us, please reach out.
Get in touch Instagram, Facebook.
Send us an email go to our website.
Any of those things we're lookingfor more ideas for episodes.
Most importantly, if you like somethingthat you've heard on this show.
Tell a friend, subscribe, leave a review.
Anything to help get the word out there.
(44:09):
We do this because we like it.
And we hope that you like it too.
Thanks so much for listening.
Have a great day.
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