October 15, 2024 • 34 mins
What if understanding Jesus' emotions could transform your spiritual life? Join us as we welcome Becky Castle Miller, who shares her remarkable journey of navigating emotional health struggles and how they led her to explore the intersection of emotions and discipleship in Christianity. Becky's profound insights, particularly through the Gospel of Luke, reveal how studying the emotions of Christ has been spiritually transformative for her, offering a new lens of Christ-like compassion and reaffirming faith during times of personal trauma.
Discover a biblical perspective on anxiety as we unpack the story of Martha in the New Testament. We delve into the translation nuances of "merimnao," traditionally understood as anxiety, and discuss its implications in light of modern mental health challenges. This conversation invites a shift from fear to confidence, focusing on faith and past provisions. Becky's dissertation work sheds light on the emotional constructs within the scriptures, with female disciples like Martha offering profound theological insights that continue to resonate today.
Finally, we tackle the misconceptions surrounding mental illness, highlighting the necessity of a holistic approach to healing that integrates the mind, body, and spirit. Becky emphasizes the importance of trauma-informed church communities and shares valuable resources to create nurturing spaces for healing and personal growth. Through an engaging discussion on emotional coaching, Becky offers her methods and philosophies, providing listeners with tools to foster environments of compassion and understanding. Don't miss this chance to gain valuable insights from Becky and enrich your understanding of emotions and discipleship.
Follow Becky online @wholeemotion or subscribe to her substack!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica LM Jenkins (00:00):
Welcome back to the we who Thirst podcast.
Today I have with me BeckyCastle-Miller.
Her work focuses on new ways tounderstand and embrace our
God-given emotions as disciples,while viewing Jesus as our
model for living an emotionallyvibrant life.
Becky did her master's atNorthern Seminary and is
(00:21):
currently working on her PhD atWheaton.
Her dissertation is aboutemotions and discipleship in the
Gospel of Luke, which I findabsolutely fascinating.
So welcome Becky, it is so goodto have you here.
I am really curious what madeyou interested in emotions and
(00:41):
the Bible as a topic?
Becky Castle Miller (00:45):
You know a lot of people say that our
research questions so often comeout of our own personal
questions.
You know some people will picka dissertation based on just
what needs to be studied anddon't really care.
But a lot of researchers arereally driven by their own
personal questions, and that'scertainly the case for me, I
(01:06):
have.
I grew up as a Christian, youknow, trying to be a disciple of
Jesus, but also learned somereally unhealthy lessons about
emotions in the Christiansubcultures that I was in, and
so as I became a young adult, Ijust really struggled with my
emotions and kept trying to shutthem down and thought there
wasn't room for trusting emotionin the Christian life, or any
(01:30):
emotions other than joy.
And so when I was in my midtwenties, I had a real emotional
breakdown, started therapy andreally started digging into
mental health, emotional health,abuse, trauma, all those things
.
And then what does the Bible sayabout these topics?
Awesome, that's fantastic.
(01:50):
When I was in my late twenties,early thirties, my family lived
in the Netherlands for eightyears and we were at an
international church there, andreally one thing I loved about
the church was the focus onstudying Jesus as our example.
Looking at what does.
What example does Jesus set forour emotions in the gospels?
I started trying to write abook about that and realized I
(02:12):
did not have the research skillsto do that.
Jessica LM Jenkins (02:15):
Yes.
Becky Castle Miller (02:16):
And I was also feeling drawn to more
discipleship and pastoralministry.
So I decided to go to seminarypastor's thesis on emotions in
the gospels, particularlyJesus's emotions.
Got to the end of seminary andrealized I actually really like
the academic study of the Bibleand feel drawn in that direction
and I still have questions.
So I started at Wheaton Collegetwo years ago with Issa
(02:38):
Macaulay and continuing thislook at emotions in the gospels.
But a dissertation has to be avery narrow focus.
So I'm focusing on the Gospelof Luke and focusing on how
Jesus shapes the emotions of hisfollowers, not just how he
expresses emotion himself.
So really it was my own lack ofemotional health looking at
(03:00):
what does the Bible say and thenbeginning to research that on
an academic level that drove meinto the work that I'm doing now
.
Jessica LM Jenkins (03:06):
I love that.
And what payoff have you seenin your own life and ministry
from that work?
Wow?
Becky Castle Miller (03:13):
You know, I don't think that there are a
lot of PhD programs that arecharacter forming.
Well, your PhD forms yourcharacter in many ways.
Jessica LM Jenkins (03:23):
It will.
Becky Castle Miller (03:23):
Yes, but just the discipline of doing it
will shape you.
But there is something specialabout getting to be a gospel
scholar.
Essentially, getting to be aJesus scholar like getting a PhD
in Jesus is something reallyspecial, and there are people
who do that from a secularperspective.
But getting to do that as aChristian, as a follower of
(03:44):
Jesus, wanting to follow him inmy personal life and wanting to
learn about him in my academiclife at a Christian institution
with real Christian scholarsleading me and guiding me,
that's awesome.
It's been an incrediblyspiritually formative experience
.
It has shaped my character indeep, deep ways, and one way
(04:09):
I've seen that truly come out isI spent the spring semester
doing some guided research andextra coursework on trauma and
emotion.
Yes, really focused oncompassion, as Jesus teaches
compassion in the gospels.
Jesus teaches compassion by theway he models it, like he has
(04:30):
moved with compassion.
He teaches his disciplesthrough parables and direct
teaching to be compassionate.
He teaches compassion as theproper Christian response to
seeing people dealing withtrauma.
Yeah, and so like beingembedded in what it means to to
(04:52):
show compassion, to be movedwith compassion, to move to take
action on behalf of someone ina vulnerable situation, like
that's what that does.
Yeah, this summer I went througha personally really traumatic
experience and what came out ofme in that was deep compassion
and it was incredible to lookback and see how God had the
mercy to prepare my characterfor what was coming, when I
(05:18):
didn't even know, like I thoughtI was just writing a book.
But it deeply formed me and soit reinforced to me my theory
when we study Jesus's emotionsand we study his teaching on
emotion and we let the HolySpirit transform our character
when we have situations in life,those Jesus led emotions are
(05:39):
what our minds are going toconstruct and I I deeply believe
that truth.
I had theorized it before.
Yeah, I have seen it in my life.
As I let the Holy Spirit formmy character, the emotions I was
able to construct changed andit created a Christ-like
character in me.
(05:59):
In the face of difficulty and Iwas talking with my advisor
about that he said you know,sometimes we do go through
crisis and what we see as aresult is, oh, maybe I really am
a Christian.
No, I think we can doubt ourfaith and the realness of our
faith in the everyday humdrumlife and then, when pressed, all
of a sudden, we can seeChrist-likeness coming out of us
(06:23):
when it humanly shouldn't, whenwe shouldn't be able to right.
When we see Christ-likenesscoming out of us when it humanly
shouldn't, when we shouldn't beable to right, when we see
Christ's character truly formedin us.
Yeah, it is so encouraging andso Beautiful.
Yeah, I am deeply humbled bythe gift God has given me by
allowing me to do this work.
That is amazing.
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:42):
I just love that you are doing this work and
have a voice in this space.
The idea of emotions in theBible and trauma and theology
have been areas I've wanted tostudy, so I was really excited
to have you on the podcast.
And in the past I don't evenknow if you even remember this,
but you sent me some papers awhile back that you wrote.
I've been really enjoyingreading those.
(07:02):
So I'm just so excited today topick your brain on all of this
as well as hear what God hasbeen doing in your life.
Typically on the podcast wetalk about women of the Bible,
so I always ask those I'minterviewing who is your
favorite woman of the Bible anddoes she relate to your area of
study?
Becky Castle Miller (07:23):
You know, I would say, one of my favorites
is Martha of Bethany, oh me too,Yay, I love Martha and I wrote
my seminary entrance paper onMartha Awesome.
We had to write a short NewTestament studies paper as part
of our seminary application andI wanted to write on Martha and
it's funny looking back now.
I was in the Netherlandswithout a lot of access to
English language resources, so Iwas trying to use online
(07:45):
resources and, you know, did noteven know like what were
quality academic resources totry to write this kind of paper.
Fair, but I put it together andthe study I did of Martha
really sparked my interest tosee her as a disciple.
Truly, she knew Jesus.
So, getting to study Martha andrealize she was a real disciple
(08:11):
of Jesus, she was, um, uh,perhaps a deacon, one who served
.
She was probably busy in localministry.
We see her again, um, serving ata dinner later.
Uh, and she is serving, likeshe continues to serve and not
just in like a typical well,women should cook the meals but
like probably a formal ministryrole and she she really has a
(08:32):
friendship with jesus.
She has, uh, this confrontationwith jesus when her brother
dies, um, and I just love thefriendship and the boldness she
has with Jesus.
So she's always been afascinating character to me when
we were in the Netherlands, Idid like a first person
(08:52):
monologue as Martha that Iperformed at a women's
conference and just really gotinto that character.
So yeah, it turns out I amactually going to be focusing on
her in a chapter of mydissertation.
Awesome, because when Jesustells her Martha, martha, you
are worried and distracted bymany things.
That word worry is a word thatI've started to do a lot of
(09:16):
research on, and so I think theconstruction of worry and
anxiousness and what thatactually means in the New
Testament is going to be a keychapter in my dissertation.
So I'm looking forward todigging into Martha and her
emotions more.
Jessica LM Jenkins (09:31):
That's awesome.
I just love Martha and thatmoment you mentioned where she
and Jesus have thatconfrontation.
That's one of my favoritemoments in the Bible.
I just love how she holdsnothing back, she just lets him
have it, but also comes out withthese really profound
theological truths.
I find, as I read the Gospels,the women, female disciples, are
(09:53):
some of the most astutetheologians before Pentecost
throughout the entire Gospels,and so I really love Martha's
piece of that.
Becky Castle Miller (10:04):
Yeah, and Martha and Peter are the only
two who truly know who Jesus isand name him.
Jessica LM Jenkins (10:10):
Yes, and I love that a woman is one of
those people, absolutely so.
You were talking about worryand anxiety, which is absolutely
perfect, because I asked ourlisteners what questions they
had for you and several of thequestions were on that topic
Exactly so.
Does anxiety equal worry and isit a?
Becky Castle Miller (10:35):
sin.
That is such a good questionand there's so much bad teaching
around this.
I did a big term paper in myfirst year of course work on do
not be anxious in Philippians,in Philippians 2.
, and I've also preached asermon on that, and I've also
(10:55):
preached on kind of a similarteaching in first Peter about
cast your cares, cast youranxieties on him, and I think
that that is going to be a wordthat I focus on or an emotion
concept that I focus on in mydissertation.
And so worry, this wordmerimnao, I think anxiety is a
(11:15):
bad translation of it, given ourcurrent American medicalized
understanding of anxiety.
Right Like right now, the wordanxiety tends to mean an anxiety
disorder.
We're talking about a medicalcondition and so I think when we
say don't be anxious, a lot ofpeople hear that in our cultural
(11:39):
context Exactly, and here it'ssinful to have an anxiety
disorder.
Right, and that's just not whatthe Bible is saying.
Yes, so I think bettertranslations might be.
Worry, perhaps, but alsosomething else In Scott
McKnight's the second Testament,which is his new new Testament
translation, he says do not bedisturbed.
(12:04):
Okay, um, which I like and Scottand I have talked a lot of.
He was my seminary professor.
We've talked a lot aboutemotions in scripture.
I've been working with him on a16 volume, uh, new Testament
commentary series, the everydayBible study series, and so as
emotions have come up in that,like we've discussed those Um
and so he thinks maybe do not,do not be disturbed, is a good
(12:25):
translation.
And I've looked at the lexicons,um, I think perhaps do not be
unduly concerned might be abetter translation yeah, because
I think it has degrees ofconcern and and focus and
prioritization, and mayberumination, like do not
(12:48):
discriminate on these thingsthat you're so worried about.
Um, I don't think it meansdon't worry ever.
I don't think it means worry isa sin.
I don't think it means anxietydisorders are a sin.
I don't think it means beinganxious is a sin.
Right, it's a reassurance.
Yes, uh, and I'm.
It's the same word used in whenJesus is talking to Martha,
that Paul uses in Philippians,that Jesus uses in the sermon on
(13:12):
the Mount, Right?
You know, do not worry aboutwhat you're going to eat, what
you're going to wear, right?
Same word.
And so I think it has to dowith, like, a lack of trust in
God's provision, rumination onthings that we cannot control, a
rumination on things that arenegative.
Mm-hmm, because some of thenewer neuroscientific research
(13:35):
on emotion does show that whatwe focus on is what we will
construct.
Yes, so there is something to.
If you rehearse uncomfortableemotions, you're reinforcing
those neural pathways and sowhen an event happens, you're
going to be more likely toconstruct an uncomfortable
emotion than to construct acomfortable emotion, right?
(13:57):
So there is something to besaid about what we focus on and
what we ruminate on.
And so when we can shift ourfaith and our focus onto God has
provided for me in the past,god will provide for me in the
future.
I trust God and I trust God'speople to care for me.
Like a lot of the Philippians,context is God's people's
concern for each other.
Right, context is God'speople's concern for each other.
(14:19):
Paul uses that word early inPhilippians to talk about
Timothy's appropriate concern orworry for people and like he's
lauded for that.
So it can't be a bad word.
Right, it's praise for havingthe same emotion.
Right, and it's like do not beanxious but by prayer and
supplication make your requestknown to God.
So I think it's a degree, it's afocus, it's a priority and it's
(14:40):
like focus on your hope andfaith as you're forward looking,
because anxiety is looking tothe future with fear and and
hope and faith are looking tothe future with confidence.
And so when we're confident inGod's provision and we're
rehearsing the ways God hasprovided for us in the past and
(15:00):
we're embedded in God's people,knowing that we're going to care
for each other and our needswill be met, like we don't need
to ruminate on what we don'thave but we can make our
priority the kingdom of God andfocus on moving forward in faith
and trusting that God's goingto care for us.
So that's kind of myunderstanding right now, and I'm
curious to see how this is allgoing to work out in my
dissertation.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:20):
Well, I can't wait to hear about that.
I've done a lot of thinkingabout anxiety in the last
several years as well, just asI've become more trauma informed
my background.
Becky Castle Miller (15:36):
I have not well.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:37):
I took a biblical counseling class in
seminary, which was not a goodclass.
Professor bragged aboutemotionally abusing his clients
in class.
Becky Castle Miller (15:43):
Yeah, yeah, big concerns about Newthetic
counseling, now kind ofrebranded as biblical counseling
.
Not that the Bible can't bewise counsel for us, but that
the approach of quote unquotebiblical counseling can be
pretty unhealthy.
Yeah, yeah.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:56):
And there's a lot of emotional bypassing.
But I never thought I hadanxiety for years, because I'm
not a worrier, I'm not aruminator, I don't construct the
emotion that way.
But I've realized that there'sa lot of anxiety that I carry in
my body and so learning thatdifference and for our listeners
(16:18):
, I felt that very strongly justtoday the difference between
rumination anxiety and aphysical experience.
My daughter got a couple teethpulled this morning and so we're
at the dentist and I trust them.
Great team, it's mentally I'mtotally fine from like here up.
We're all good, everything'sunder control.
(16:40):
I get out to the waiting roomafter she's under anesthesia and
I realized my whole body,physiologically, is anxious.
I can't focus on the book Ibrought to read, I can't even
crochet.
I'm feeling agitated, eventhough mentally I'm not
ruminating.
And so that mind bodyconnection, learning to bridge
(17:00):
those together and be aware ofthe differences, can be really
helpful.
Becky Castle Miller (17:05):
Right, and and I don't think, if you catch
yourself doing that, that you'relike need to say oh, oh, no,
I'm in sin Cause I'm beinganxious.
No, I think it's a, I thinkit's an offer of love from God,
not a like condemning command.
It's like hey, I just want toremind you, just like we would a
child.
If our child is afraid, we cansay I want to remind you, I am
(17:29):
here, you are safe, I am withyou, I am going to take care of
you.
And I think that's what do notbe anxious or don't worry means
in scripture.
It's like hey, I think that'swhat.
Jessica LM Jenkins (17:37):
Do not be anxious or don't worry means in
scripture it's like hey, I'vegot you Kind of like the
scooping up.
You would have a little kidLike don't be afraid.
Becky Castle Miller (17:44):
It's okay.
It's like co-regulation fromGod.
Oh, I love that.
Let me calm your breathing withmy own breathing.
Let me calm your body with mybody.
Let me be the calming,empathetic presence that you
need right now.
I've got you.
Jessica LM Jenkins (18:00):
That's why you don't need to worry, not
that you're bad for worry, right, and then our emotions can be
reconstructed according to thatco-regulation with God, rather
than a spiritual bypassing oremotional bypassing, which is
what I often did to my own self,like, oh, I'm just not going to
think about it.
I moved any worry, rumination,anxiety into my body because
(18:23):
ruminating is sin.
So therefore I'm just going tocarry it all in my that as I
think about the co-regulationwith God aspect.
(18:45):
There's a lot of people whohave abuse in their past, trauma
in their past, especially withcaregiver parents.
They have spiritual abuse intheir past.
So for them that co-regulationwith God is really hard because
they have a hard time trustingpeople in general but have
trouble relating to God that way.
(19:07):
What hope would you offer forthem?
Becky Castle Miller (19:11):
That is so hard to see God as a loving
parent when you have not had aloving parent modeled for you.
Yeah, absolutely I.
Just an acknowledgement of thatis the first step and maybe
then God as parent isn't a safemetaphor for you.
But, like you know, thescripture is full of metaphors
for us.
Oh yeah, so many, and we werenot limited to God as parent.
(19:32):
So that triggering for someone,uh, that's fine.
Like there's other metaphorsfor understanding God.
God our savior, god, ourdeliverer, god, our justice
bringer, um, our friend God, ourfriend Jesus, our friends.
Like there's so many more wayswe can think of God.
So, so we're not bound to that.
If that's triggering, um it.
(19:54):
It helps if you have a friendwho is a safe person, who's good
at helping you regulateyourself, and then see how God
can be that way.
If you have safe people, like Iunderstand that that's a hard
thing to grasp.
If we don't have safe people onour level, it is hard to
(20:14):
imagine God being safe.
Yeah, hard to imagine God beingsafe, yeah, especially when we
have been abused in God's name,yes, by spiritual leaders, or
we've had the Bible weaponizedagainst us.
It is hard to find safety inscripture and spiritual leaders.
So, yeah, I just acknowledgehow difficult that is.
(20:35):
Yeah, so so, learning toreceive compassion from God
Maybe it's the first time inyour life that you've trusted a
being to be compassionate andgood to you.
It is learning that for thefirst time and trusting that God
(20:58):
is good and God is safe.
I definitely am a huge fan oflicensed therapy, absolutely.
You know, when we are carryingtrauma in our bodies and in our
stories, it is hard to accessGod's love.
A few years ago, when I wasdiagnosed with complex
post-traumatic stress disorderand one way that manifested was
(21:23):
really having a hard timeaccepting love from God and
believing I was good enough forGod, yeah, um, and as I did
trauma therapy using EMDR, uh,internal family systems.
As to the key modalities withmy trauma therapist, um, as I
healed, I became open toreceiving love from God in a new
way and feeling God'scompassion and care for me and
(21:47):
learning to have compassion andlove and care for myself.
So a good trauma therapist canbe a really important part of
spiritual healing becausesometimes it is our trauma that
blocks our our access toreceiving that love from God.
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:04):
And I think often our our relationship with
God and this wasn't taught me.
I came from a veryintellectualized everything
tradition but our relationshipwith God is a whole body
experience, it's not just ourmind.
And just to further your plugfor trauma-informed counseling
(22:25):
and therapy they can help withthat mind-body integration.
And I know for the trauma in myfamily that we have EMDR
internal family systems.
Those things have been huge inour home as well.
So if you're listening andyou're like, should I get I
don't know look for, if you havetrauma in your past,
(22:50):
trauma-informed therapy that canuse EMDR internal family
systems, a lot of these thingscould potentially I'm not going
to promise but be so helpful foryou and I think both Becky and
I would love to see you accessthose healing resources that.
God has provided through hisgrace for us.
Becky Castle Miller (23:06):
Absolutely.
And somatic experiencing isanother good trauma healing
modality that really works withyour body yeah, helps you engage
your body and deal with thetrauma that's stored in your
body.
So somatic experiencing isreally good.
Accelerated resolution therapyART I experienced that in one
session this summer.
It was incredible Like I feltlike I had like a decrease in my
(23:28):
reactivity from like a nine,like on a scale of 10, like from
a nine down to like a six andlike one session like several
sessions to get there.
So ART is a is a cool traumahealing modality.
Yeah, and I had the privilegeof being in a master's level
counseling class at WheatonCollege in the spring semester
(23:48):
and it was the intro to traumacounseling class and so getting
to see these future Christiancounselors and the incredible
top notch research training andcounseling training they were
getting really makes me feelconfident in the future of like
the, the Christian licensedcounseling profession.
I'm really excited to see youknow these, these young people
(24:09):
becoming therapists, so that'sfantastic.
It was just really cool to tolike learn all this stuff about
trauma healing in the body andand see it integrated with, uh,
scripture and a biblicalworldview.
Jessica LM Jenkins (24:19):
I love that.
So, kind of along this sameline of questions, we talked
about anxiety.
Another question from ourlisteners is what are your
thoughts on church teachingsthat depression is a sin?
We've talked about anxiety.
The other big one is depression.
Becky Castle Miller (24:37):
I mean, I think it's really hard to claim
that depression is a sin when somany of the Psalms show the
Psalmists being depressed.
Like right we can.
We can diagnose a lot of thePsalmists with with clinical
depression or major depressivedisorder.
That's.
That's a whole tricky.
There's a whole like subdiscipline in biblical studies.
Can we diagnose biblicalcharacters with modern mental
(24:59):
illnesses according to, like theDSM five right Question marks?
But I read a really cool paperabout, like diagnosing Paul with
PTSD by looking at the ends.
You know there's someinteresting things we can do
with that, likemultidisciplinary work.
Anyway, it's a it's a subinterest for me.
But I think I think we can lookat many Bible characters Elijah
, at times, many of thePsalmists, paul himself himself
(25:23):
as having traits of majordepressive disorder.
So I do not think that a mentalillness is a sin and I do not
think even just like having adepressed mood is sinful.
There are circumstances in ourlife that lead us to feeling
depressed.
There are brain chemistryimbalances and difficulties that
lead us to like long-termdepression.
(25:45):
Is counseling help available?
There's medical help available.
I do not think this is in anyway a sin.
I do think that spiritualhealing can be part of a
recovery from depression, butbecause it is partly a medical
issue, partly a mental healthissue, mental health care
providers and doctors can help.
(26:05):
We don't have to do it withjust spiritual care alone.
When we are spirituallydepressed, like God, that God's
comfort is available to us, butsometimes it's much more than a
spiritual issue and it needsmore than spiritual help.
So I don't want to leave Godout of the healing, no, but I
think, like an integrated mind,body, spirit healing approach is
(26:27):
going to be the most effectiveand I think that our depression
can be protective.
I was talking to my therapistthis week and I was just like I
am I'm so heavy, I'm so tired,I'm so worn down with this
trauma that I'm dealing with andI realized as we talked that
(26:51):
depression was actually aprotective force, because that
part of me was saying it's too,it is too much for you, but you
are dealing with has become yourability to cope.
You are at your limit, youcannot keep doing everything
you're doing and heal.
And it was like this sort ofinternal protector that was
(27:12):
saying slow down, give yourselfspace to grieve, give yourself
space to rest, cut things out.
And so the depression which canfeel like an enemy could
actually be a friend that'sprotecting us.
Jessica LM Jenkins (27:25):
That's beautiful.
I needed that reminder becauseI've been feeling there's just
so much going on everywhere.
Yeah, I needed that, Thank you.
Our last question, and thismight take us a little while to
discuss but how can we as churchmembers most of my listeners
and we are not in churchleadership how do we start
(27:50):
becoming trauma informedourselves?
And, secondly, how do weinfluence our churches in that
direction?
Becky Castle Miller (27:58):
Well, there are so many good books and
resources.
Are so many good books andresources?
Um, a lot of people will say tostart with Bessel van der
Kolk's the body keeps the score.
But so many people find thatbook really triggering and and
have there's there's reasonablequestions about van der Kolk
(28:20):
himself as a safe, healthyperson.
Uh, I I tend to not recommendthat one.
But, like a caveat, maybe don'tread, the body keeps the score.
Uh.
But Judith Herman's book traumaand recovery is a good place to
start.
If you want to read a fat bookon trauma, it's readable, but it
is.
It is research-based, um, andshe has a new book called truth
(28:43):
and repair that is about, like,what survivors of trauma need to
recover.
Um, so those are good books.
Um, if people are interested inlearning about trauma and in an
internal family systems uh way,which is one of my favorite
therapeutic modalities I'mtrained in I is one of my
favorite therapeutic modalitiesI'm trained in IFS use it in my
(29:06):
emotion coaching business.
But this book transcendingtrauma Okay, by Frank Anderson,
healing complex PTSD withinternal family systems therapy,
is a really good primer on bothtrauma and IFS and just gives a
lot of hope for, like, howcomplex trauma can be healed.
So reading some of the goodbooks on trauma listening to
(29:28):
webinars, reading articles aboutit if you don't want to read a
whole book is a good way tolearn what you're doing.
A good one for people inchurches to read is a church
called Tove by Scott McKinneyand his daughter, laura Berenger
.
Yeah, not specifically abouttrauma, but it really is about
how goodness Tove means good inHebrew how goodness can combat
(29:52):
toxicity and fight trauma inchurch cultures.
So for people dealing with aspiritually abusive context, a
church called Tove is a goodstarting place.
And then they've got a new bookcalled Pivot, which the way
they cover, you can see Tove inPivot.
So that's their second bookabout like how to actually
change church culture.
So if you're looking to helpyour church culture change from
(30:14):
toxic to Tove, pivot by ScottMcKnight and Laura Berenger is
an excellent book as well, andthose are not academic.
Those are very readable books.
So those are a few places tostart, but really just educating
yourself on what trauma is, howit impacts the body, what
trauma reactivity looks like,signs and symptoms of PTSD.
(30:38):
Even if you like Google, whatare the diagnostic criteria for
PTSD?
Like Google, what is what arethe diagnostic criteria for PTSD
?
You'll find from the DSM-5 orthe ICD-11, which are two like
mental health manuals,diagnostic manuals and read what
it takes for someone to bediagnosed with PTSD and you'll
see that it involves likeintrusive thoughts and
flashbacks and triggers, and youknow the traumatic event that
(31:03):
starts it, but then like howthat leaks into their everyday
life and impacts theirfunctioning.
So just being aware of like howtrauma impacts people, um
reading out the differencebetween acute PTSD and um CPTSD
or complex PTSD, um acute PTSDcan happen after someone
experiences one traumaticincident, but when they have
been through trauma for a longperiod of time, it actually
(31:25):
becomes complex trauma which hassome different symptoms.
So Google this stuff, read aboutit, learn about it, develop
compassion.
Reread the story of the GoodSamaritan, because he is moved
with compassion, he sees thewounded man.
And reread the story of theprodigal son.
(31:46):
The father is moved withcompassion for the son.
So then, when we begin to seepeople who are traumatized, we
begin to create in ourselves, oh, the emotion to take action on
this person's behalf andallowing God's compassionate
love to seep into us and tobegin to come out of us.
(32:08):
Is this beautiful biblicalemotional response to seeing
people in trauma.
Jessica LM Jenkins (32:15):
I love that.
That is beautiful.
Well, thank you, becky, so muchfor spending a few minutes with
me tonight to discuss all ofthis.
I really appreciate your workand can't wait to hear more
about your studies and yourdissertation and everything you
are learning, and to pick yourbrain and learn from you.
I hope that you have awonderful evening.
(32:38):
For anyone listening, you canfind out more about Becky and
her emotional coaching businessthat she does on her website,
which will be linked on thisepisode beckycastlemillercom.
She provides emotional coachingand all the books she has
worked on and podcasts she'sbeen.
If you're like I, like the wayshe thinks I want to hear more
(33:00):
of what she's done.
All of that is on her website.
It will be linked on thisepisode.
Thank you so much, becky.
It is great to have you.
Thank you so much, jessica.
Becky Castle Miller (33:09):
I'm so glad we got to talk in real time.
Welcome back to the we who Thirst podcast.
Today I have with me BeckyCastle-Miller.
Her work focuses on new ways tounderstand and embrace our
God-given emotions as disciples,while viewing Jesus as our
model for living an emotionallyvibrant life.
Becky did her master's atNorthern Seminary and is
(00:21):
currently working on her PhD atWheaton.
Her dissertation is aboutemotions and discipleship in the
Gospel of Luke, which I findabsolutely fascinating.
So welcome Becky, it is so goodto have you here.
I am really curious what madeyou interested in emotions and
(00:41):
the Bible as a topic?
Becky Castle Miller (00:45):
You know a lot of people say that our
research questions so often comeout of our own personal
questions.
You know some people will picka dissertation based on just
what needs to be studied anddon't really care.
But a lot of researchers arereally driven by their own
personal questions, and that'scertainly the case for me, I
(01:06):
have.
I grew up as a Christian, youknow, trying to be a disciple of
Jesus, but also learned somereally unhealthy lessons about
emotions in the Christiansubcultures that I was in, and
so as I became a young adult, Ijust really struggled with my
emotions and kept trying to shutthem down and thought there
wasn't room for trusting emotionin the Christian life, or any
(01:30):
emotions other than joy.
And so when I was in my midtwenties, I had a real emotional
breakdown, started therapy andreally started digging into
mental health, emotional health,abuse, trauma, all those things
.
And then what does the Bible sayabout these topics?
Awesome, that's fantastic.
(01:50):
When I was in my late twenties,early thirties, my family lived
in the Netherlands for eightyears and we were at an
international church there, andreally one thing I loved about
the church was the focus onstudying Jesus as our example.
Looking at what does.
What example does Jesus set forour emotions in the gospels?
I started trying to write abook about that and realized I
(02:12):
did not have the research skillsto do that.
Jessica LM Jenkins (02:15):
Yes.
Becky Castle Miller (02:16):
And I was also feeling drawn to more
discipleship and pastoralministry.
So I decided to go to seminarypastor's thesis on emotions in
the gospels, particularlyJesus's emotions.
Got to the end of seminary andrealized I actually really like
the academic study of the Bibleand feel drawn in that direction
and I still have questions.
So I started at Wheaton Collegetwo years ago with Issa
(02:38):
Macaulay and continuing thislook at emotions in the gospels.
But a dissertation has to be avery narrow focus.
So I'm focusing on the Gospelof Luke and focusing on how
Jesus shapes the emotions of hisfollowers, not just how he
expresses emotion himself.
So really it was my own lack ofemotional health looking at
(03:00):
what does the Bible say and thenbeginning to research that on
an academic level that drove meinto the work that I'm doing now
.
Jessica LM Jenkins (03:06):
I love that.
And what payoff have you seenin your own life and ministry
from that work?
Wow?
Becky Castle Miller (03:13):
You know, I don't think that there are a
lot of PhD programs that arecharacter forming.
Well, your PhD forms yourcharacter in many ways.
Jessica LM Jenkins (03:23):
It will.
Becky Castle Miller (03:23):
Yes, but just the discipline of doing it
will shape you.
But there is something specialabout getting to be a gospel
scholar.
Essentially, getting to be aJesus scholar like getting a PhD
in Jesus is something reallyspecial, and there are people
who do that from a secularperspective.
But getting to do that as aChristian, as a follower of
(03:44):
Jesus, wanting to follow him inmy personal life and wanting to
learn about him in my academiclife at a Christian institution
with real Christian scholarsleading me and guiding me,
that's awesome.
It's been an incrediblyspiritually formative experience
.
It has shaped my character indeep, deep ways, and one way
(04:09):
I've seen that truly come out isI spent the spring semester
doing some guided research andextra coursework on trauma and
emotion.
Yes, really focused oncompassion, as Jesus teaches
compassion in the gospels.
Jesus teaches compassion by theway he models it, like he has
(04:30):
moved with compassion.
He teaches his disciplesthrough parables and direct
teaching to be compassionate.
He teaches compassion as theproper Christian response to
seeing people dealing withtrauma.
Yeah, and so like beingembedded in what it means to to
(04:52):
show compassion, to be movedwith compassion, to move to take
action on behalf of someone ina vulnerable situation, like
that's what that does.
Yeah, this summer I went througha personally really traumatic
experience and what came out ofme in that was deep compassion
and it was incredible to lookback and see how God had the
mercy to prepare my characterfor what was coming, when I
(05:18):
didn't even know, like I thoughtI was just writing a book.
But it deeply formed me and soit reinforced to me my theory
when we study Jesus's emotionsand we study his teaching on
emotion and we let the HolySpirit transform our character
when we have situations in life,those Jesus led emotions are
(05:39):
what our minds are going toconstruct and I I deeply believe
that truth.
I had theorized it before.
Yeah, I have seen it in my life.
As I let the Holy Spirit formmy character, the emotions I was
able to construct changed andit created a Christ-like
character in me.
(05:59):
In the face of difficulty and Iwas talking with my advisor
about that he said you know,sometimes we do go through
crisis and what we see as aresult is, oh, maybe I really am
a Christian.
No, I think we can doubt ourfaith and the realness of our
faith in the everyday humdrumlife and then, when pressed, all
of a sudden, we can seeChrist-likeness coming out of us
(06:23):
when it humanly shouldn't, whenwe shouldn't be able to right.
When we see Christ-likenesscoming out of us when it humanly
shouldn't, when we shouldn't beable to right, when we see
Christ's character truly formedin us.
Yeah, it is so encouraging andso Beautiful.
Yeah, I am deeply humbled bythe gift God has given me by
allowing me to do this work.
That is amazing.
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:42):
I just love that you are doing this work and
have a voice in this space.
The idea of emotions in theBible and trauma and theology
have been areas I've wanted tostudy, so I was really excited
to have you on the podcast.
And in the past I don't evenknow if you even remember this,
but you sent me some papers awhile back that you wrote.
I've been really enjoyingreading those.
(07:02):
So I'm just so excited today topick your brain on all of this
as well as hear what God hasbeen doing in your life.
Typically on the podcast wetalk about women of the Bible,
so I always ask those I'minterviewing who is your
favorite woman of the Bible anddoes she relate to your area of
study?
Becky Castle Miller (07:23):
You know, I would say, one of my favorites
is Martha of Bethany, oh me too,Yay, I love Martha and I wrote
my seminary entrance paper onMartha Awesome.
We had to write a short NewTestament studies paper as part
of our seminary application andI wanted to write on Martha and
it's funny looking back now.
I was in the Netherlandswithout a lot of access to
English language resources, so Iwas trying to use online
(07:45):
resources and, you know, did noteven know like what were
quality academic resources totry to write this kind of paper.
Fair, but I put it together andthe study I did of Martha
really sparked my interest tosee her as a disciple.
Truly, she knew Jesus.
So, getting to study Martha andrealize she was a real disciple
(08:11):
of Jesus, she was, um, uh,perhaps a deacon, one who served
.
She was probably busy in localministry.
We see her again, um, serving ata dinner later.
Uh, and she is serving, likeshe continues to serve and not
just in like a typical well,women should cook the meals but
like probably a formal ministryrole and she she really has a
(08:32):
friendship with jesus.
She has, uh, this confrontationwith jesus when her brother
dies, um, and I just love thefriendship and the boldness she
has with Jesus.
So she's always been afascinating character to me when
we were in the Netherlands, Idid like a first person
(08:52):
monologue as Martha that Iperformed at a women's
conference and just really gotinto that character.
So yeah, it turns out I amactually going to be focusing on
her in a chapter of mydissertation.
Awesome, because when Jesustells her Martha, martha, you
are worried and distracted bymany things.
That word worry is a word thatI've started to do a lot of
(09:16):
research on, and so I think theconstruction of worry and
anxiousness and what thatactually means in the New
Testament is going to be a keychapter in my dissertation.
So I'm looking forward todigging into Martha and her
emotions more.
Jessica LM Jenkins (09:31):
That's awesome.
I just love Martha and thatmoment you mentioned where she
and Jesus have thatconfrontation.
That's one of my favoritemoments in the Bible.
I just love how she holdsnothing back, she just lets him
have it, but also comes out withthese really profound
theological truths.
I find, as I read the Gospels,the women, female disciples, are
(09:53):
some of the most astutetheologians before Pentecost
throughout the entire Gospels,and so I really love Martha's
piece of that.
Becky Castle Miller (10:04):
Yeah, and Martha and Peter are the only
two who truly know who Jesus isand name him.
Jessica LM Jenkins (10:10):
Yes, and I love that a woman is one of
those people, absolutely so.
You were talking about worryand anxiety, which is absolutely
perfect, because I asked ourlisteners what questions they
had for you and several of thequestions were on that topic
Exactly so.
Does anxiety equal worry and isit a?
Becky Castle Miller (10:35):
sin.
That is such a good questionand there's so much bad teaching
around this.
I did a big term paper in myfirst year of course work on do
not be anxious in Philippians,in Philippians 2.
, and I've also preached asermon on that, and I've also
(10:55):
preached on kind of a similarteaching in first Peter about
cast your cares, cast youranxieties on him, and I think
that that is going to be a wordthat I focus on or an emotion
concept that I focus on in mydissertation.
And so worry, this wordmerimnao, I think anxiety is a
(11:15):
bad translation of it, given ourcurrent American medicalized
understanding of anxiety.
Right Like right now, the wordanxiety tends to mean an anxiety
disorder.
We're talking about a medicalcondition and so I think when we
say don't be anxious, a lot ofpeople hear that in our cultural
(11:39):
context Exactly, and here it'ssinful to have an anxiety
disorder.
Right, and that's just not whatthe Bible is saying.
Yes, so I think bettertranslations might be.
Worry, perhaps, but alsosomething else In Scott
McKnight's the second Testament,which is his new new Testament
translation, he says do not bedisturbed.
(12:04):
Okay, um, which I like and Scottand I have talked a lot of.
He was my seminary professor.
We've talked a lot aboutemotions in scripture.
I've been working with him on a16 volume, uh, new Testament
commentary series, the everydayBible study series, and so as
emotions have come up in that,like we've discussed those Um
and so he thinks maybe do not,do not be disturbed, is a good
(12:25):
translation.
And I've looked at the lexicons,um, I think perhaps do not be
unduly concerned might be abetter translation yeah, because
I think it has degrees ofconcern and and focus and
prioritization, and mayberumination, like do not
(12:48):
discriminate on these thingsthat you're so worried about.
Um, I don't think it meansdon't worry ever.
I don't think it means worry isa sin.
I don't think it means anxietydisorders are a sin.
I don't think it means beinganxious is a sin.
Right, it's a reassurance.
Yes, uh, and I'm.
It's the same word used in whenJesus is talking to Martha,
that Paul uses in Philippians,that Jesus uses in the sermon on
(13:12):
the Mount, Right?
You know, do not worry aboutwhat you're going to eat, what
you're going to wear, right?
Same word.
And so I think it has to dowith, like, a lack of trust in
God's provision, rumination onthings that we cannot control, a
rumination on things that arenegative.
Mm-hmm, because some of thenewer neuroscientific research
(13:35):
on emotion does show that whatwe focus on is what we will
construct.
Yes, so there is something to.
If you rehearse uncomfortableemotions, you're reinforcing
those neural pathways and sowhen an event happens, you're
going to be more likely toconstruct an uncomfortable
emotion than to construct acomfortable emotion, right?
(13:57):
So there is something to besaid about what we focus on and
what we ruminate on.
And so when we can shift ourfaith and our focus onto God has
provided for me in the past,god will provide for me in the
future.
I trust God and I trust God'speople to care for me.
Like a lot of the Philippians,context is God's people's
concern for each other.
Right, context is God'speople's concern for each other.
(14:19):
Paul uses that word early inPhilippians to talk about
Timothy's appropriate concern orworry for people and like he's
lauded for that.
So it can't be a bad word.
Right, it's praise for havingthe same emotion.
Right, and it's like do not beanxious but by prayer and
supplication make your requestknown to God.
So I think it's a degree, it's afocus, it's a priority and it's
(14:40):
like focus on your hope andfaith as you're forward looking,
because anxiety is looking tothe future with fear and and
hope and faith are looking tothe future with confidence.
And so when we're confident inGod's provision and we're
rehearsing the ways God hasprovided for us in the past and
(15:00):
we're embedded in God's people,knowing that we're going to care
for each other and our needswill be met, like we don't need
to ruminate on what we don'thave but we can make our
priority the kingdom of God andfocus on moving forward in faith
and trusting that God's goingto care for us.
So that's kind of myunderstanding right now, and I'm
curious to see how this is allgoing to work out in my
dissertation.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:20):
Well, I can't wait to hear about that.
I've done a lot of thinkingabout anxiety in the last
several years as well, just asI've become more trauma informed
my background.
Becky Castle Miller (15:36):
I have not well.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:37):
I took a biblical counseling class in
seminary, which was not a goodclass.
Professor bragged aboutemotionally abusing his clients
in class.
Becky Castle Miller (15:43):
Yeah, yeah, big concerns about Newthetic
counseling, now kind ofrebranded as biblical counseling
.
Not that the Bible can't bewise counsel for us, but that
the approach of quote unquotebiblical counseling can be
pretty unhealthy.
Yeah, yeah.
Jessica LM Jenkins (15:56):
And there's a lot of emotional bypassing.
But I never thought I hadanxiety for years, because I'm
not a worrier, I'm not aruminator, I don't construct the
emotion that way.
But I've realized that there'sa lot of anxiety that I carry in
my body and so learning thatdifference and for our listeners
(16:18):
, I felt that very strongly justtoday the difference between
rumination anxiety and aphysical experience.
My daughter got a couple teethpulled this morning and so we're
at the dentist and I trust them.
Great team, it's mentally I'mtotally fine from like here up.
We're all good, everything'sunder control.
(16:40):
I get out to the waiting roomafter she's under anesthesia and
I realized my whole body,physiologically, is anxious.
I can't focus on the book Ibrought to read, I can't even
crochet.
I'm feeling agitated, eventhough mentally I'm not
ruminating.
And so that mind bodyconnection, learning to bridge
(17:00):
those together and be aware ofthe differences, can be really
helpful.
Becky Castle Miller (17:05):
Right, and and I don't think, if you catch
yourself doing that, that you'relike need to say oh, oh, no,
I'm in sin Cause I'm beinganxious.
No, I think it's a, I thinkit's an offer of love from God,
not a like condemning command.
It's like hey, I just want toremind you, just like we would a
child.
If our child is afraid, we cansay I want to remind you, I am
(17:29):
here, you are safe, I am withyou, I am going to take care of
you.
And I think that's what do notbe anxious or don't worry means
in scripture.
It's like hey, I think that'swhat.
Jessica LM Jenkins (17:37):
Do not be anxious or don't worry means in
scripture it's like hey, I'vegot you Kind of like the
scooping up.
You would have a little kidLike don't be afraid.
Becky Castle Miller (17:44):
It's okay.
It's like co-regulation fromGod.
Oh, I love that.
Let me calm your breathing withmy own breathing.
Let me calm your body with mybody.
Let me be the calming,empathetic presence that you
need right now.
I've got you.
Jessica LM Jenkins (18:00):
That's why you don't need to worry, not
that you're bad for worry, right, and then our emotions can be
reconstructed according to thatco-regulation with God, rather
than a spiritual bypassing oremotional bypassing, which is
what I often did to my own self,like, oh, I'm just not going to
think about it.
I moved any worry, rumination,anxiety into my body because
(18:23):
ruminating is sin.
So therefore I'm just going tocarry it all in my that as I
think about the co-regulationwith God aspect.
(18:45):
There's a lot of people whohave abuse in their past, trauma
in their past, especially withcaregiver parents.
They have spiritual abuse intheir past.
So for them that co-regulationwith God is really hard because
they have a hard time trustingpeople in general but have
trouble relating to God that way.
(19:07):
What hope would you offer forthem?
Becky Castle Miller (19:11):
That is so hard to see God as a loving
parent when you have not had aloving parent modeled for you.
Yeah, absolutely I.
Just an acknowledgement of thatis the first step and maybe
then God as parent isn't a safemetaphor for you.
But, like you know, thescripture is full of metaphors
for us.
Oh yeah, so many, and we werenot limited to God as parent.
(19:32):
So that triggering for someone,uh, that's fine.
Like there's other metaphorsfor understanding God.
God our savior, god, ourdeliverer, god, our justice
bringer, um, our friend God, ourfriend Jesus, our friends.
Like there's so many more wayswe can think of God.
So, so we're not bound to that.
If that's triggering, um it.
(19:54):
It helps if you have a friendwho is a safe person, who's good
at helping you regulateyourself, and then see how God
can be that way.
If you have safe people, like Iunderstand that that's a hard
thing to grasp.
If we don't have safe people onour level, it is hard to
(20:14):
imagine God being safe.
Yeah, hard to imagine God beingsafe, yeah, especially when we
have been abused in God's name,yes, by spiritual leaders, or
we've had the Bible weaponizedagainst us.
It is hard to find safety inscripture and spiritual leaders.
So, yeah, I just acknowledgehow difficult that is.
(20:35):
Yeah, so so, learning toreceive compassion from God
Maybe it's the first time inyour life that you've trusted a
being to be compassionate andgood to you.
It is learning that for thefirst time and trusting that God
(20:58):
is good and God is safe.
I definitely am a huge fan oflicensed therapy, absolutely.
You know, when we are carryingtrauma in our bodies and in our
stories, it is hard to accessGod's love.
A few years ago, when I wasdiagnosed with complex
post-traumatic stress disorderand one way that manifested was
(21:23):
really having a hard timeaccepting love from God and
believing I was good enough forGod, yeah, um, and as I did
trauma therapy using EMDR, uh,internal family systems.
As to the key modalities withmy trauma therapist, um, as I
healed, I became open toreceiving love from God in a new
way and feeling God'scompassion and care for me and
(21:47):
learning to have compassion andlove and care for myself.
So a good trauma therapist canbe a really important part of
spiritual healing becausesometimes it is our trauma that
blocks our our access toreceiving that love from God.
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:04):
And I think often our our relationship with
God and this wasn't taught me.
I came from a veryintellectualized everything
tradition but our relationshipwith God is a whole body
experience, it's not just ourmind.
And just to further your plugfor trauma-informed counseling
(22:25):
and therapy they can help withthat mind-body integration.
And I know for the trauma in myfamily that we have EMDR
internal family systems.
Those things have been huge inour home as well.
So if you're listening andyou're like, should I get I
don't know look for, if you havetrauma in your past,
(22:50):
trauma-informed therapy that canuse EMDR internal family
systems, a lot of these thingscould potentially I'm not going
to promise but be so helpful foryou and I think both Becky and
I would love to see you accessthose healing resources that.
God has provided through hisgrace for us.
Becky Castle Miller (23:06):
Absolutely.
And somatic experiencing isanother good trauma healing
modality that really works withyour body yeah, helps you engage
your body and deal with thetrauma that's stored in your
body.
So somatic experiencing isreally good.
Accelerated resolution therapyART I experienced that in one
session this summer.
It was incredible Like I feltlike I had like a decrease in my
(23:28):
reactivity from like a nine,like on a scale of 10, like from
a nine down to like a six andlike one session like several
sessions to get there.
So ART is a is a cool traumahealing modality.
Yeah, and I had the privilegeof being in a master's level
counseling class at WheatonCollege in the spring semester
(23:48):
and it was the intro to traumacounseling class and so getting
to see these future Christiancounselors and the incredible
top notch research training andcounseling training they were
getting really makes me feelconfident in the future of like
the, the Christian licensedcounseling profession.
I'm really excited to see youknow these, these young people
(24:09):
becoming therapists, so that'sfantastic.
It was just really cool to tolike learn all this stuff about
trauma healing in the body andand see it integrated with, uh,
scripture and a biblicalworldview.
Jessica LM Jenkins (24:19):
I love that.
So, kind of along this sameline of questions, we talked
about anxiety.
Another question from ourlisteners is what are your
thoughts on church teachingsthat depression is a sin?
We've talked about anxiety.
The other big one is depression.
Becky Castle Miller (24:37):
I mean, I think it's really hard to claim
that depression is a sin when somany of the Psalms show the
Psalmists being depressed.
Like right we can.
We can diagnose a lot of thePsalmists with with clinical
depression or major depressivedisorder.
That's.
That's a whole tricky.
There's a whole like subdiscipline in biblical studies.
Can we diagnose biblicalcharacters with modern mental
(24:59):
illnesses according to, like theDSM five right Question marks?
But I read a really cool paperabout, like diagnosing Paul with
PTSD by looking at the ends.
You know there's someinteresting things we can do
with that, likemultidisciplinary work.
Anyway, it's a it's a subinterest for me.
But I think I think we can lookat many Bible characters Elijah
, at times, many of thePsalmists, paul himself himself
(25:23):
as having traits of majordepressive disorder.
So I do not think that a mentalillness is a sin and I do not
think even just like having adepressed mood is sinful.
There are circumstances in ourlife that lead us to feeling
depressed.
There are brain chemistryimbalances and difficulties that
lead us to like long-termdepression.
(25:45):
Is counseling help available?
There's medical help available.
I do not think this is in anyway a sin.
I do think that spiritualhealing can be part of a
recovery from depression, butbecause it is partly a medical
issue, partly a mental healthissue, mental health care
providers and doctors can help.
(26:05):
We don't have to do it withjust spiritual care alone.
When we are spirituallydepressed, like God, that God's
comfort is available to us, butsometimes it's much more than a
spiritual issue and it needsmore than spiritual help.
So I don't want to leave Godout of the healing, no, but I
think, like an integrated mind,body, spirit healing approach is
(26:27):
going to be the most effectiveand I think that our depression
can be protective.
I was talking to my therapistthis week and I was just like I
am I'm so heavy, I'm so tired,I'm so worn down with this
trauma that I'm dealing with andI realized as we talked that
(26:51):
depression was actually aprotective force, because that
part of me was saying it's too,it is too much for you, but you
are dealing with has become yourability to cope.
You are at your limit, youcannot keep doing everything
you're doing and heal.
And it was like this sort ofinternal protector that was
(27:12):
saying slow down, give yourselfspace to grieve, give yourself
space to rest, cut things out.
And so the depression which canfeel like an enemy could
actually be a friend that'sprotecting us.
Jessica LM Jenkins (27:25):
That's beautiful.
I needed that reminder becauseI've been feeling there's just
so much going on everywhere.
Yeah, I needed that, Thank you.
Our last question, and thismight take us a little while to
discuss but how can we as churchmembers most of my listeners
and we are not in churchleadership how do we start
(27:50):
becoming trauma informedourselves?
And, secondly, how do weinfluence our churches in that
direction?
Becky Castle Miller (27:58):
Well, there are so many good books and
resources.
Are so many good books andresources?
Um, a lot of people will say tostart with Bessel van der
Kolk's the body keeps the score.
But so many people find thatbook really triggering and and
have there's there's reasonablequestions about van der Kolk
(28:20):
himself as a safe, healthyperson.
Uh, I I tend to not recommendthat one.
But, like a caveat, maybe don'tread, the body keeps the score.
Uh.
But Judith Herman's book traumaand recovery is a good place to
start.
If you want to read a fat bookon trauma, it's readable, but it
is.
It is research-based, um, andshe has a new book called truth
(28:43):
and repair that is about, like,what survivors of trauma need to
recover.
Um, so those are good books.
Um, if people are interested inlearning about trauma and in an
internal family systems uh way,which is one of my favorite
therapeutic modalities I'mtrained in I is one of my
favorite therapeutic modalitiesI'm trained in IFS use it in my
(29:06):
emotion coaching business.
But this book transcendingtrauma Okay, by Frank Anderson,
healing complex PTSD withinternal family systems therapy,
is a really good primer on bothtrauma and IFS and just gives a
lot of hope for, like, howcomplex trauma can be healed.
So reading some of the goodbooks on trauma listening to
(29:28):
webinars, reading articles aboutit if you don't want to read a
whole book is a good way tolearn what you're doing.
A good one for people inchurches to read is a church
called Tove by Scott McKinneyand his daughter, laura Berenger
.
Yeah, not specifically abouttrauma, but it really is about
how goodness Tove means good inHebrew how goodness can combat
(29:52):
toxicity and fight trauma inchurch cultures.
So for people dealing with aspiritually abusive context, a
church called Tove is a goodstarting place.
And then they've got a new bookcalled Pivot, which the way
they cover, you can see Tove inPivot.
So that's their second bookabout like how to actually
change church culture.
So if you're looking to helpyour church culture change from
(30:14):
toxic to Tove, pivot by ScottMcKnight and Laura Berenger is
an excellent book as well, andthose are not academic.
Those are very readable books.
So those are a few places tostart, but really just educating
yourself on what trauma is, howit impacts the body, what
trauma reactivity looks like,signs and symptoms of PTSD.
(30:38):
Even if you like Google, whatare the diagnostic criteria for
PTSD?
Like Google, what is what arethe diagnostic criteria for PTSD
?
You'll find from the DSM-5 orthe ICD-11, which are two like
mental health manuals,diagnostic manuals and read what
it takes for someone to bediagnosed with PTSD and you'll
see that it involves likeintrusive thoughts and
flashbacks and triggers, and youknow the traumatic event that
(31:03):
starts it, but then like howthat leaks into their everyday
life and impacts theirfunctioning.
So just being aware of like howtrauma impacts people, um
reading out the differencebetween acute PTSD and um CPTSD
or complex PTSD, um acute PTSDcan happen after someone
experiences one traumaticincident, but when they have
been through trauma for a longperiod of time, it actually
(31:25):
becomes complex trauma which hassome different symptoms.
So Google this stuff, read aboutit, learn about it, develop
compassion.
Reread the story of the GoodSamaritan, because he is moved
with compassion, he sees thewounded man.
And reread the story of theprodigal son.
(31:46):
The father is moved withcompassion for the son.
So then, when we begin to seepeople who are traumatized, we
begin to create in ourselves, oh, the emotion to take action on
this person's behalf andallowing God's compassionate
love to seep into us and tobegin to come out of us.
(32:08):
Is this beautiful biblicalemotional response to seeing
people in trauma.
Jessica LM Jenkins (32:15):
I love that.
That is beautiful.
Well, thank you, becky, so muchfor spending a few minutes with
me tonight to discuss all ofthis.
I really appreciate your workand can't wait to hear more
about your studies and yourdissertation and everything you
are learning, and to pick yourbrain and learn from you.
I hope that you have awonderful evening.
(32:38):
For anyone listening, you canfind out more about Becky and
her emotional coaching businessthat she does on her website,
which will be linked on thisepisode beckycastlemillercom.
She provides emotional coachingand all the books she has
worked on and podcasts she'sbeen.
If you're like I, like the wayshe thinks I want to hear more
(33:00):
of what she's done.
All of that is on her website.
It will be linked on thisepisode.
Thank you so much, becky.
It is great to have you.
Thank you so much, jessica.
Becky Castle Miller (33:09):
I'm so glad we got to talk in real time.
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