September 10, 2024 • 43 mins
What if the traits society stereotypically labels as masculine are celebrated by God when they occur in women? Join us as we continue our enlightening mini-series on Proverbs 31, featuring our special guest, Elice Kilko. Elice shares her journey of reconciling her naturally assertive and bold nature with traditional Christian expectations. Together, we challenge the stereotype that a godly woman must be quiet and gentle by reflecting on the stories of Deborah and Abigail, who embody strength and assertiveness.
Unlock the true meaning of the Proverbs 31 woman as we explore the Hebrew term "chayil," which translates to valor and carries military connotations. This reexamination transforms our understanding of the biblical figure from a solely nurturing presence to one who is courageous and assertive. By comparing the use of "chayil" in other scriptures, particularly in the book of Ruth, we reveal its broader implications for women's roles both in biblical times and today. Our discussion highlights how traditional interpretations have minimized women's assertiveness and emphasizes the empowerment that comes from embracing the original meaning.
Discover the warlike imagery hidden within Proverbs 31 through terms like "shalal," which means spoil or plunder. This shifts the perception of the Proverbs 31 woman's labor to that of a warrior's endeavors, underlining the value and strength of her work. We also discuss how contemporary Christian teachings often limit women to stereotypically feminine roles, and why it's vital to celebrate a diverse expression of womanhood. End with a personal devotional moment, where we remind you that God delights in who you are, just as He created you. Tune in for an empowering conversation that encourages women to embrace their God-given strengths and identities.
......................................................
Follow We Who Thirst on Instagram, Threads, or Tiktok ! Visit www.wewhothirst.com
If you are interested in the research and sources behind this episode visit - https://rb.gy/xx0no6 - for a full Bibliography. For full shownotes including ancient sources, join my Patreon.
If you'd like more in-depth show-notes for each woman of the Bible, or a safe place to discuss the contents in greater detail - we have a private Discard channel through the We Who Thirst Patreon.
Thank you for supporting the We Who Thirst podcast! Patreon members get exclusive access to discord discussions, polls for future podcast episodes, full episode show notes, and more.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Jenkins (00:00):
Today we are continuing our mini-series on
Proverbs 31 to discover how Goddelights in women.
Specifically, we will betalking about how God delights
in women who are strong,assertive, bold and, dare I say,
stereotypically masculine insome of their personality.
Presentation With me today ismy dear friend, elise Kilko.
(00:20):
Elise is a cross-culturalteacher with a heart for
ministry through lovinghospitality.
She was raised in Brazil andhas studied in Israel.
Personally, she's confrontedquestions about the goodness of
God and deeply desires women toknow Jesus' love for them.
Elise, tell me what kind ofpersonality you were taught,
(00:40):
either implicitly or explicitly,that a godly woman needed to
have.
Elice Kilko (00:47):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I feel like, growing up, welearned so much about what a
godly woman should look like.
I have three older sisters, soour house is full of girls, and
I feel like within the Christiancircles we were in, we were
(01:07):
often taught Titus 2 andProverbs 31 and the passage from
, I think, peter, where it talksabout a quiet spirit, a meek
and quiet spirit, and I justfelt like I didn't fit the bell.
I didn't measure up.
How could I be?
How could I be quiet?
(01:27):
Yeah, I was not quiet, so Imust not be a godly woman.
And it wasn't until I startedstudying.
Thankfully, in my home westudied through women of the
Bible.
My dad had this book called Allthe Women of the Bible by
Herbert Lockyer, and while Idisagree a lot with things.
(01:50):
Now, it was definitely one ofthe books that made me realize
that God had a lot to say aboutwomen and I would flip through
and read and I realized that alot of women in the Bible
weren't necessarily quiet andthat it wasn't a specific
personality Like I didn't haveto be quiet.
I could serve Jesus with mywords too.
(02:11):
So, but it's definitely been astruggle throughout the years.
Yeah definitely.
Jessica Jenkins (02:17):
I know I really struggled growing up, feeling
like my personality just wasn'tthe correct personality.
I have a very type, A strong,big personality, very
opinionated.
I'm just going to tell youbluntly how it is.
I'm not trying to be rude, I'mjust not going to.
There's no frills.
I'm just going to, straightdown the middle, tell you
exactly how I think it is.
(02:39):
And that was just not.
People usually weren't overtlycondemning of it, but you just
got the vibe that it's likeyou're just not the right fit.
Elice Kilko (02:51):
The regular fit.
Yeah, no, that makes so muchsense.
And when we met, our strongpersonalities definitely had to
get along.
We had to work to make thathappen.
Jessica Jenkins (03:01):
But I think it was also our strong
personalities that we were likewe are going to be friends.
Elice Kilko (03:06):
Come hell or high water, we're going to make this
work.
Jessica Jenkins (03:09):
We will make this work and we decided, and
that was that Like we had bumps,but here we are this many years
later?
Elice Kilko (03:19):
Yeah, a lot of years later.
Jessica Jenkins (03:22):
I don't want to do that, but yeah, yeah, a lot
of years later I don't want todo that, but yeah.
So, yeah, that whole culturalvibe that women are supposed to
have and you expect women in theBible to have, and it's taught
that they have these gentle,quiet spirits and if you see
someone not being they're like,well, they were still gentle and
quiet because the Bible saysyou have to be so and it kind of
(03:46):
created, for me at least alittle bit, this cognitive
dissidence Cause you have, likeDeborah and JL and Abigail
Abigail.
Elice Kilko (03:54):
Who made?
Jessica Jenkins (03:54):
this spot and Abigail and some of them I don't
want to get sidetracked toomuch, but there was also like
Deborah, Abigail were also likethe circles I was in couldn't
fully decide, decide if theywere positive or not quite
positive female examples fromthe Old Testament.
If it was something you should,if you should follow their
example or not.
(04:14):
That's true.
It's kind of like I don't knowabout them, but the Proverbs 31
woman you definitely should belike the Proverbs 31 woman that
was drilled in Proverbs 31 woman, Like that was drilled in
Proverbs 31, Titus two.
That is what you need to liveup to and these women are
homemaking nurturers.
They're super feminine andthat's what you need to be,
(04:36):
exactly like them.
Elice Kilko (04:38):
Yes, which made it so hard to live up to that?
Yeah, what did you find otherpeople saying as you studied
Proverbs 31?
Jessica Jenkins (04:51):
I looked at a few things.
Abigail Dodds in her articlethe Beauty of Womanhood Her
Uniqueness Makes Her Essentialon the Desiring God website.
She said that when we, as women, forsake our feminine glory in
pursuit of the uniqueness thatbelongs to men, we abandon our
God-given glory.
We become usurpers,persistently insisting that our
(05:13):
uterus and biology are equal tonothing irrelevant.
Women believe the lie that inorder to be relevant in a man's
world, you must become like aman when the opposite is true
world.
You must become like a man whenthe opposite is true.
So I found these people talkingabout how women need to be
uniquely feminine.
It is God's design that youhave to be uniquely feminine in
(05:37):
a very feminine way.
Like no confusion, no masculinetraits.
You have to be feminine.
No confusion, no masculinetraits.
You have to be feminine.
Trillian Newbell in her chapterin Design for Joy her chapter is
the Feminine Focus.
She says it's not merelyphysical attributes that make us
male and female.
Femininity goes much deeperthan what we see in the mirror.
(05:58):
God created us with roles andinstincts that are distinctly
feminine and I remember growingup hearing vestiges of this like
you have to be distinctlyfeminine.
Of course, nobody ever fullydefined what that meant.
It was for me.
I like things a little moreconcrete and it was kind of this
nebulous concept and I'm tryingto figure out social skills and
(06:21):
I'm just like what do I want?
Like pearls, social skills andI'm just like what do I want?
What is like pearls trickledown to personality, yeah, like
I wear pearls, I curl my hair,uh, wear skirts, um, but when I
step in a room I kind of takecharge and everybody's okay with
that.
But that's not okay because andit's not feminine and I don't
(06:45):
know what I'm doing here, okay,and then they would add the
nurturing word on top of it.
Women are feminine andnurturing.
I'm like, okay, nurturing,what's that?
Is that like taking care ofbabies and toddlers?
Because count me out, notinterested in babies and
toddlers?
Is that soul care of smallpeople?
Okay, I might be able to dothat for, like you know, older
(07:06):
elementary, I'm finding, as mykids get older, I'm like, okay,
soul care of small humans thatcan actually have a conversation
, I can do that.
But is that nurturing or isthat just shepherding?
And now we're getting funny onour terms and I felt like these
words you had to be distinctlyfeminine, but nobody could
actually define what that meant.
Or when they did, I didn't fitthe bill because it ended up
(07:30):
like a soft, gentle personality.
Elice Kilko (07:35):
Yeah, that's not me , which is not you?
Jessica Jenkins (07:39):
Not ever.
So it was just a very, veryconfusing.
Did you run into any of that?
Like you have to be overtlyfeminine teaching.
Elice Kilko (07:51):
Yeah, I was always growing up.
I was always closer to my dadthan my mom and.
I was never into sports oranything and I loved, you know,
cooking and a lot of things thatare now very like homemaking,
sort of things.
I care very deeply about myfriends, which you could say is
(08:13):
nurturing, but I always feltlike I was too loud, or you know
, I was too.
By loud I don't mean necessarilyvolume, but too outspoken and
too direct and I had too, mucheye contact with the opposite
(08:35):
sex for some people, and I wasjust trying to get my point
across.
Jessica Jenkins (08:40):
Yep Make sure they understand what you're
saying across.
Elice Kilko (08:51):
Yeah, Make sure they understand what you're
saying.
Yes, People accuse me often ofbeing cold, but I didn't mean to
.
People told me that I hadspikes on my shoulder, like a
cold shoulder, and there werespikes on that cold shoulder.
So, yeah, I heard a lot of thatand I didn't know how that fit,
(09:14):
because I wanted to love Godand I wanted to show God's love
to my friends and to the peoplewho were around me and I loved,
you know, like I loved workingin the nursery growing up.
So you know, I loved babies,but I just, in so many ways I
didn't fit the exact.
You know, I always wanted to beunique in my style, which means
I didn't wear I needed pink andI didn't want to wear lace or
(09:36):
frills, you know.
So I definitely struggledthrough a lot of that through my
teenage years.
I wore t-shirts and cargoshorts and you know, just like
was very tomboyish in myappearance, Um, and I didn't
know how that fit with a gentleand quiet spirit or you know,
(09:57):
how am I supposed to um, fulfillthis femininity that I don't
feel connected to in a lot ofways?
Yeah, so I really struggledwith that, especially through my
teen years.
Jessica Jenkins (10:10):
Yeah, no, I felt like I struggled with a
huge amount of personality.
Women talk about how they havelike body image issues because
they don't match up to likecosmopolitan or ideal.
I always felt like I hadpersonality image issues because
they don't match up to likecosmopolitan or ideal.
I always felt like I hadpersonality image issues, like I
was constantly trying to likemask or make myself smaller, and
(10:38):
it never really worked.
And even when I could do that,it wasn't good for my soul do
that it wasn't good for my soul,and as I'm hearing us both talk
about this, knowing what I knownow about neurodivergence, I
wonder how much of ourexperience is having ADHD,
having some neurodivergence, andthat being a piece as well,
(11:00):
where some of the quotestereotypical femininity pieces
are much more neurotypicalperhaps.
I'm just throwing that outthere because I know a lot of
our listeners are neurodivergentas well and that makes identity
really challenging as you aretrying to go through it.
Elice Kilko (11:20):
Yes.
Jessica Jenkins (11:20):
Yeah.
Elice Kilko (11:21):
And even with issues of never feeling like you
fit in and all of that yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (11:25):
Like.
You just can't figure out howto be the right kind of girl.
Elice Kilko (11:29):
Mm, hmm.
Jessica Jenkins (11:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So Proverbs 31, I avoidedforever because I was just sure
it was going to be another youdon't match up, you're not good
enough kind of passage.
And I did not need any more ofthat in my life after Bible,
(11:50):
college and seminary and all thevoices being like you have to
be overtly feminine and I justwasn't.
Elice Kilko (11:57):
Yes, which is so hard?
Yeah, so where do you see?
What do you see in Proverbs 31that speaks to this difficulty
that we both have and that wegrew up with and struggled with
all through our teen years?
Jessica Jenkins (12:11):
Proverbs 31, as I studied it in the Hebrew,
completely shocked me.
I was not expecting anythingthat I found in this passage,
especially related to like herpersonality, because when you
look at the Proverbs 31 woman,the language they use to
describe her and we miss it inthe English.
(12:33):
So if you want to see more ofthe Hebrew nuances of the text
brought out, go to my website,wewhothirstcom.
You can download a free copy ofmy translation of Proverbs 31
from the Hebrew.
In the English you miss a lotof it, but the Hebrew is overtly
masculine in its description ofthe Proverbs 31 woman, which
(12:57):
completely shocked me.
Elice Kilko (12:59):
Which is incredible .
So you're saying that the wordsthat they use in Hebrew are
words that people in that timewould associate with masculine
traits?
Jessica Jenkins (13:12):
Yes, exactly yeah, and so we can go through
some of those verses.
But for me it was completelyfreeing because it's like the
woman everybody is supposed tobe, like the Hebrew Bible
describes in masculine traits.
She was absolutely a woman, butshe was not anything like our
(13:32):
stereotypical perception of asuper feminine nurturing woman,
so she was a strong woman.
She was yes, and we'll talk moreabout that in a few minutes.
One thing I want to start withis talking just about how we
translate who she is, becausethey don't call her the Proverbs
(13:54):
31 woman in the text.
You will have a lot ofdifferent translations.
If you look at verse 10,there's a lot of different
translations like excellent wife, a woman of noble character,
different things like that.
I mean.
Books have even been writtenlike.
(14:14):
I had Martha Peace's theExcellent Wife on my shelf my
entire teenage college years asI was aspiring to be this type
of woman.
But when you look at the Hebrew, verse 10 says a woman of valor
who will attain far abovepearls is her price.
(14:35):
Verse 29 uses that same wordfor valor.
It says numerous daughters dovaliantly and you yourself rise
above all of them so.
Elice Kilko (14:45):
valiant is like another word for like courageous
, almost, or like virtuous, orlike a battle word.
Jessica Jenkins (14:53):
It's a battle word Exactly.
The Hebrew word for valor ischayil and it is typically our
English translations.
Typically translate that wordas noble character, excellent,
worthy or virtuous.
And those translations are notwrong because there is a depth
of meaning to the Hebrew wordchayil, but they miss, as you
(15:15):
just said, the battle componentof what that word is describing.
Elice Kilko (15:21):
Yeah, like we talk about soldiers who received the
Medal of Valor If we couldreframe and talk about a woman
of valor.
We have that connotation, yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (15:32):
And what's really unique is outside of the
book of Proverbs the only timevalor or chayil is used of a
woman is in Ruth.
Every other time so the wordchayil occurs 242 times in the
Hebrew Bible in 242 verses.
I should say In 238 of thoseverses it's talking about men.
(15:58):
I believe four, maybe six timestotal does it refer to a woman.
Most of them occur in the bookof Proverbs, once or twice in
the book of Ruth.
So overarchingly, chayil is aword to describe men.
It is a masculine antenna.
(16:18):
90-something percent of thetime.
It's not a word commonly usedfor women, ever in the Bible.
Elice Kilko (16:28):
It's incredible and really cool it is.
Jessica Jenkins (16:32):
And the most of the time that valor is used
it's a military term.
So it occurs in 242 verses but172 of those usages, so about
half it's in a military contextand I've gone through and I've
looked at them all it's amilitary context.
(16:53):
It can also be used to denotewealth, skill to do a task,
general strength or power,influence, and those other
meanings are often what peopleuse to try to translate it when
it refers to a woman, becausethere's no military context in
Proverbs 31, and the word isovertly military in its Hebrew
(17:17):
usage.
So they try to find somethingelse to translate it.
Rather than simply calling herthe woman of valor, they say
she's the excellent wife, awoman of wealth who can find.
But I find they're not wantingto call out what the Hebrew is
actually doing there.
Elice Kilko (17:35):
Which is a shame for all of the people like us
who never felt like they fit in.
Jessica Jenkins (17:41):
It really is Like if somebody had told me as
a teenager that the Proverbs 31was a woman of valor, which is a
military, strong, ferociousterm, I would have been like
what?
Like the Bible's literallydescribing me.
That would have done so muchfor my soul.
(18:05):
How does the idea of valor as amilitary term in describing the
Proverbs 31 woman, what doesthat do?
How does that change the feelof the passage for you?
Elice Kilko (18:25):
I think it definitely like last podcast we
talked about how it's not achecklist, how Proverbs 31 isn't
a checklist that gives you roomto be courageous and to explore
the areas of your personalitythat you want or need to be more
(18:46):
assertive in and show that youcan be this woman that God
created you to be in your fullpersonality.
Your full personality.
God made it and you can take itto God and he loves that.
So it really hits different,yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (19:06):
And I love how you brought out it.
It allows you to be theassertive that you need to be,
because a lot of the cultures Iwas in really was down on women
being assertive, and I thinkthat's part of the reason we
have had some of the like sexualabuse scandals in the SBC and
various things because women aretaught to not be assertive,
(19:28):
they're taught to not trustthemselves, so they don't.
They're not able to recognizewhen abuse is happening and then
even when they they do, theydon't want to speak up because
they'd have to be assertive andassertiveness is considered
divisive and it's just thiswhole head game that women start
playing like.
Should I even open my mouth andwe'll bring these themes back up
(19:53):
in later podcast episodes butthat empowerment of women to
stand up in godly ways we're nottalking about sinful
expressions here but to stand upassertively and say this is
right, this is wrong, I will goto battle for what is right and
God smiles on that in a womanyes, that's completely a
(20:18):
complete paradigm shift from thenebulous has to be overtly
feminine and definitelynurturing womanhood I was raised
in Like warrior woman versusnurturing.
They were going to saynurturing every time and the
warrior woman needs to go turnher plow into baby bottles.
(20:39):
Her sword needs to become acrib.
Like you hang it up and you gotake care of a baby, and that's
not the picture we actually seein proverbs 31 yeah, yeah, it
wasn't for nothing that Jaelused a tent peg to kill Sisera.
Elice Kilko (21:05):
She used her women tools to do a job that needed to
be done, and she was definitelya woman of valor.
Jessica Jenkins (21:15):
So let's move on to verse 11, because I mean,
we're just going to hit some.
We're looking thematicallythrough Proverbs 31.
So we're just going to hit somehigh points of these verses,
because this warlike themecontinues throughout the entire
chapter.
It's not just the beginning andthe end verses 10 and 29.
Let's look at verse 11.
Can you read that for me?
Elice Kilko (21:37):
out of the ESV.
Yes, it says the heart of herhusband trusts in her and he
will have no lack of gain, ofgain, all right.
Jessica Jenkins (21:47):
And then did you have another translation up
as well.
Elice Kilko (21:51):
I did CSB also.
It says the heart of herhusband trusts in her and he
will not lack anything.
Good Trusts in her and he willnot lack anything good, anything
good.
Jessica Jenkins (22:02):
So the phrase he will not lack gain or he will
not lack anything good.
In the ESV and CSB those wordsare the Hebrew word shalal, that
I would translate in this wayand spoil her husband will not
be without.
So not spoil like food thatspoils and goes bad, but spoil
(22:24):
like pirate booty or bounty wonin war.
This word is overtly warlike.
It's not just like oh, yourhusband will have everything
good that he needs, it's like no, her husband's heart trusts in
her and he will not be withoutthe winnings from her battle.
(22:47):
That's incredible.
Basically what it's saying.
You get like shivers becauseyou have this idea of her coming
home hanging up her sword andproviding him with plunder.
Like Like that could be anotherword.
Trusts in her, does the heartof her husband and plunder he
will not be without.
(23:07):
This woman is conquering Now,not literally battle conquering,
that's not the context, butthat's the imagery they're using
and again, it's incrediblymasculine imagery.
Elice Kilko (23:22):
So she's bringing provisions for her family
through the hard work that shedoes in a battle-like way, even
though it's not an actual warRight.
Jessica Jenkins (23:34):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
This word's very specific andit plays off the masculine
warlike imagery from Chayil inverse 10, valor in verse 10.
So the two verses are playingtogether and the author of
Proverbs 31 does not view thiswoman's tasks as easy, or even
women's work, as thecolloquialism goes.
(23:56):
Instead, the author comparesthe results of the woman of
valor's labor to bounty broughtback by men from battle.
He values her labor that highlywhich, in a lot of Christian
circles I hear them talkingabout how much they value
women's labor.
Being a mom is the mostimportant job in the world.
(24:17):
And they say all this and thenthe men don't want any part of
it.
Elice Kilko (24:22):
Yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (24:22):
Not all men.
I'll be the first to say thatbecause, like my father and my
husband, they are there, they'regetting their hands dirty,
they're changing the diapers,they're taking care of the kids.
My husband and my dad in manyways are far more nurturing than
I am.
If my kids are sick, myhusband's like, oh, come here,
I'll cuddle you.
I'm like I will take yourtemperature, I will run to the
store and I will get youmedicine.
(24:42):
I can cuddle you for fiveminutes and then mommy has to
move, because sitting still formore than five minutes to cuddle
you is literal torture.
My husband's like I got twohours, we'll just lay on the
couch and I'll provide youwarmth and comfort, like I'm
glad they have those nurturingtendencies because I will bring
back bounty from the grocerystore in the form of medicine
(25:07):
and I will lay it at your feet.
Yes, and that's important too,so I appreciate men who step in
to do those things, but in ourculture in the church, men talk
about being a mom is the highestcalling, but I don't want to do
any of those things.
But here, in Proverbs 31, herwork is elevated to the same
(25:32):
reverence as the warrior thattheir culture depended on for
safety.
Elice Kilko (25:41):
Are there other words like that in this passage?
Jessica Jenkins (25:44):
The next one I think is probably one of my
favorite.
Can you read verse 15 in theESV?
Elice Kilko (25:52):
She rises while it is yet night and provides food
for her household and portionsfor her maiden for her household
and portions for her maiden.
Jessica Jenkins (26:06):
So that word food for her household is not
one of the typical Hebrew wordsfor food.
This is the word prey.
I can't remember whichtranslation it was, but they
translated it meat, which wouldbe more accurate than just
general food.
But it's the idea of prey likea prey animal.
It's the imagery here.
In verses 10 and 11, we had theimagery of a warrior going to
(26:30):
battle, bringing back plunderfor her family.
This is a praise song for awarrior who brings back plunder,
brings back plunder.
In verse 15, the imagery shifts.
Now the imagery is of a lionessstanding over her kill.
She's just killed a gazelle andshe's providing food off of the
gazelle to her cubs.
(26:51):
So it's still that warlikeimagery.
It's just a slightly differentpicture and I love that.
The proverb keeps coming backto that.
It's not just food.
Woman, get in the kitchen andmake me a sandwich.
I'm going to go hunt a deer.
No, she is the one out therehunting the deer.
Elice Kilko (27:10):
She is the one bringing the prey back in which
should be encouraging to all ofthe women in your space who hunt
come fall.
Yes, which is exciting.
Jessica Jenkins (27:27):
They could all say I'm just being a Proverbs 31
woman.
I'm doing exactly what theBible says.
They now have a verse for that,their theme verse for the hunt.
One commentator said the use ofprey rather than bread or food
gives verse 15 the overtones ofaggression and pugnacity.
Elice Kilko (27:50):
Pugnacity is such a great word.
Jessica Jenkins (27:52):
It is, and especially when you are raised
in a culture where women shouldnot be aggressive or pugnacious.
They need to be quiet andsubdued, mild-mannered demure.
Yes, to have the passage belike no for a woman to be
appropriately aggressive andeven I'm showing my own culture,
(28:15):
because for a man to beaggressive, you don't have to
hedge that- yeah.
But as a woman I feel like Ihave to hedge saying a woman, a
man, to be aggressive.
You don't have to hedge that.
But as a woman I feel like Ihave to hedge saying a woman's
going to be she's appropriatelyaggressive.
But I wouldn't ever say a manhas to be appropriately
aggressive.
So I'm finding myself evenhedging that kind of statement.
But to have that, that we canbe what we are called to be
(28:41):
situationally she's not alwaysbringing home prey, it's as the
need requires, but we can stepup in those ways is so freeing
for my soul.
Elice Kilko (28:54):
So here then we see that she's a force to be
reckoned with.
She's this woman of valor, istruly not passive or limiting
herself.
She's being her full potential.
She's meeting her fullpotential.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So.
Are there other verses?
Jessica Jenkins (29:16):
Oh you know there are.
So verse 17,.
I'm just going to read mytranslation of it.
Verse 17 says she girds herloins with strength and makes
her arms mighty.
What on earth does it mean togird one's loins?
That is not the way we evertalk.
Elice Kilko (29:37):
Well, I know from growing up that it was like when
they would tie their um, liketheir clothes up so that they
could do labor or battle, sothat they could have free,
freedom of movement yeah, oneway I've seen it done is like
you stand and you bring, becauseeven the men wore long robes.
Jessica Jenkins (29:59):
You'd bring the robe up between your legs and
tuck it in the belt in front, oryou could like kind of tie it
on the sides.
Yes, but again, this is anotherphrase that is overtly
masculine in its description.
Women are not describedanywhere in the Old Testament as
girding their loins.
Nowhere, nowhere.
Women do not gird their loinsin the Old Testament.
(30:21):
Only men gird their loins.
And here, the Proverbs 31,woman is doing a stereotypically
male endeavor again.
So as I think about thoseinitial quotes I read from
complementarian thinkers likeAbigail Dodds and Trillia
Newbell, where they're like,women have to be overtly
feminine.
They can't be masculine in anyway.
(30:43):
Then you read the Hebrew ofProverbs 31 and you go wait a
minute.
Elice Kilko (30:48):
There's a total disconnect in what the Hebrew is
saying and how we, howcomplementarians, often see it
in this day and age.
Jessica Jenkins (30:57):
Yes, and even complementarian articles on
Proverbs 31,.
They'll be like women should bestrong in that they should be
confident in God's goodness andthey should work hard in their
homes.
And that's about as far as theytake it.
They don't get into wait aminute, because on one side you
have to be overtly feminine,like they are stuck to that idea
(31:21):
.
Yeah, but Proverbs 31 is not atall.
We see in Proverbs 31, thisperception of gender roles that
the Proverbs 31 is not stayingwithin.
We see her working vigorouslyin areas of the masculine domain
in her culture without losingher femininity or her
(31:44):
God-honoring status as a woman.
God likes what this woman isdoing, or we wouldn't have the
inspired scripture in our Bible.
Yeah, when I started looking atProverbs 31 as things as a
cultural representation ofcharacteristics that God likes
in women, it completely changedmy perspective.
Elice Kilko (32:06):
I can totally see that.
I can see how it would changethat, for sure.
Jessica Jenkins (32:33):
Because she doesn't go about her tasks
diminutively quietly.
She walks in with greatconfidence and exercises.
If you're interested in therole of women in the Old
Testament family and what thatlooked like, I have a talk on
patricentrism and heterarchy.
Up on my YouTube channel youcan find that.
Search for we who Thirstpodcasts and you'll be able to
find that lecture there and I'llwalk through all of the
(32:54):
different ways that women hadauthority and power in their
community and families in theOld Testament.
Just a side note, if you'reinterested in that topic, if
something was like oh, I want toknow more about that.
I have a lecture out there foryou and it has pictures it's so
good.
Yes, it does have pictures,which pictures are always great.
That's why it's on YouTube,because, yeah, it's really great
that way.
Elice Kilko (33:15):
So what ways have you found Christian culture
appreciates women's strength andin what ways did you see that
they reject?
We talked a little bit aboutthat, but what ways do you see
that are, yeah, in this day andage, we reject that.
And what ways do you see thatwe get that from what the Bible
(33:37):
is saying?
Jessica Jenkins (33:38):
The complementarians I've read and
listened to and just kind of thethe complimentary culture I
swam in.
I'm definitely not going toblame my parents because I think
they parented me pretty well,like they did a good job with
the daughter God gave them.
So none of this is blame likeon my parents, but we were still
in this cultural river thatimpacted me deeply, even though
(34:03):
it didn't come from my parentsspecifically.
They provided specific books,like Martha Peace's the
Excellent Wife, but it wasreally the cultural river.
The college I went to, theseminary I went to.
So the complementarians I'veread and listened to.
They say they want women to bestrong.
They really do.
If you go search any of theirwebsites for Proverbs 31,
(34:25):
they're going to say womenshould be strong, they need to
be disciplined, they need to beenduring, like what comes to
your mind.
How do they describe a woman'sstrength?
Elice Kilko (34:34):
strength, Um, yeah, I think it's definitely in like
stereotypical feminine ways.
So like, oh, you should bestrong in that you're, you know
working in the garden, that youhave a garden or that you you
know um hoist two babies on yourhips, whatever, but um, but
(34:57):
there isn't a whole lot of space, um often or there wasn't as I
was growing up for for women whohave, you know, really strong
thighs because they love to playsoccer, or you know um, just
different, different things likethat.
You know where their strengthcould be celebrated in the
(35:17):
strength that God gave them, foryou know where their strength
could be celebrated in thestrength that God gave them, for
you know a woman that likes todo CrossFit or something like
that which is not me, but butjust that wasn't celebrated.
You know, like here I wasfeeling outcast for my
personality, but I felt verycomfortable with other girls who
(35:41):
were struggling because theywere super tomboys that loved
playing soccer or, you know,were super sporty and they had
really athletic bodies, girlsthat were swimmers and had, you
know, these awesome shoulders,you know, just because that's
what their sport needed.
So I feel like it was itdevalued the way that our
(36:02):
culture talked about femininity,devalued the strength that God
gave women in like physical orpersonality ways, because they
expected, you know, women to bethis one monolith of a gentle
and quiet spirit, which to themmeant a soft voice and just like
(36:26):
a very, you know, vanilla sortof personality, which I don't
even like to say because I lovevanilla and vanilla from
different places in the world,like there's so much variance,
but you know, as peopleunderstand, yeah it.
Jessica Jenkins (36:44):
And there was even, not just like the subtle
cultural undertones, but evenlike john piper in um one of his
I think it's the um recoveringbiblical manhood and womanhood,
even talks about how womenshouldn't necessarily be in the
gym lifting weights and tryingto be manly by having muscles.
It's like she makes strong herarms.
Elice Kilko (37:11):
How does she do that?
I mean, she's probably grindingwheats and things like that.
That's a workout, it is yeah,but yeah, that's a bunch of
baloney, as my dad would say.
Jessica Jenkins (37:28):
Yeah.
But they wanted women to bestrong, but it had to be in an
overtly feminine way, so notmuscles, not personality.
Pushing out a baby is a nice,overtly feminine strength,
strong, strong.
But it couldn't be masculine atall.
But Proverbs 31 teaches us thatthe woman of valor's splendor,
(37:52):
her glory, is intrinsically tiedto God and he adores her
strength.
Proverbs 31 is God saying Ilove a strong, even a woman who
transgresses some of thesegender boundaries a little bit,
(38:13):
where she is a woman after hisown heart, but she's a little
masculine and God's like I likethat.
I made her like that, that'sbeautiful.
Elice Kilko (38:24):
It allows for such a full spectrum of what being a
woman looks like.
You can be the lace and flowerfeminine, quiet woman and honor
the Lord and you can be thewarrior princess who goes after
what she believes God wants herto do and is also a Proverbs 31
(38:49):
woman, a woman of valor.
Jessica Jenkins (38:52):
God likes women of all types.
I feel like that is part of thefullness that Proverbs 31 helps
us to see, because you have toread 1 Peter 3, the gentle,
quiet spirit alongside theferocious warrior who provides
prey and plunder for her family.
They're not mutually exclusiveand God delights in both, in
(39:16):
both.
And I really want to speakespecially for a moment to those
listening who might like.
We've talked a lot about thewoman with the strong
personalities and thewarrior-esque-ness, but I want
to talk briefly to the women whoare like.
But I am the nurturing, quiet,demure woman and I just want to
(39:42):
say to that listener that'sbeautiful.
I don't want anyone to walk awayfrom this thinking that that
kind of woman is worse or not asgood, or that God doesn't
delight in that, becauseProverbs 31 uses the masculine
language.
The fact that it uses themasculine warlike imagery in
Proverbs 31 is not saying aquiet, gentle, demure, more
soft-spoken, careful-thinking,not assertive woman is a wrong
(40:08):
way to be a woman.
That's not at all, becausethere's other passages that
bring out the beauty of that andGod delights in that as well.
I want us all to be able tothink about a well-rounded
womanhood where women areallowed to be whole people.
We're not caricatures of anideal, we are whole people and
that's going to look differentfor every woman and that's good.
(40:32):
We are all being transformed inour character to exemplify the
fruit of the Spirit and a 1Corinthians 13 love.
Elice Kilko (40:42):
But we do that in a myriad of beautiful personality
types, body types, expressionsthat God delights in that gives
us so much encouragement as wego forward to be, encouragement
as we go forward to be whoeverGod made us to be, regardless of
our personality.
(41:02):
We can be sure that, if we'reseeking to please the Lord and
follow his example, that we'regoing to be pleasing to him,
which is so different than thevibe we usually get when we
study Proverbs 31.
Jessica Jenkins (41:17):
Yeah, I avoided Proverbs 31.
And then I felt like, when Inoticed all these things, it was
literally a love letter fromGod and I'm like not the one to
say it's a love letter for theBible scriptures or love letter
written to you, because theBible's not written to us.
But in that devotional moment Ijust I felt like the Lord was
(41:37):
saying for the first timeJessica, it's okay, exactly who
I made you to be is okay.
Not only is it okay, I thinkit's awesome and that has been
incredibly transformative in mymind and heart and I really hope
(41:59):
for someone listening out therewho needs that same message
that this will bring them hopethat God didn't mess up and make
you a girl when he should havemade you a boy, because you have
the wrong personality to be thequote Christian girl.
God made you exactly the way hewanted you, with a mixture of
(42:21):
traits, and that is okay to haveas a woman, and God delights in
that.
Well, thank you all so much forlistening.
Next episode we are going totalk about the Proverbs 31 woman
and her husband and lay outthat relationship a little bit,
(42:42):
emphasizing trust and how Godwants women to be trusted.
I can't wait to talk to youabout that.
We will see you next time.
Today we are continuing our mini-series on
Proverbs 31 to discover how Goddelights in women.
Specifically, we will betalking about how God delights
in women who are strong,assertive, bold and, dare I say,
stereotypically masculine insome of their personality.
Presentation With me today ismy dear friend, elise Kilko.
(00:20):
Elise is a cross-culturalteacher with a heart for
ministry through lovinghospitality.
She was raised in Brazil andhas studied in Israel.
Personally, she's confrontedquestions about the goodness of
God and deeply desires women toknow Jesus' love for them.
Elise, tell me what kind ofpersonality you were taught,
(00:40):
either implicitly or explicitly,that a godly woman needed to
have.
Elice Kilko (00:47):
Yeah, it's a good question.
I feel like, growing up, welearned so much about what a
godly woman should look like.
I have three older sisters, soour house is full of girls, and
I feel like within the Christiancircles we were in, we were
(01:07):
often taught Titus 2 andProverbs 31 and the passage from
, I think, peter, where it talksabout a quiet spirit, a meek
and quiet spirit, and I justfelt like I didn't fit the bell.
I didn't measure up.
How could I be?
How could I be quiet?
(01:27):
Yeah, I was not quiet, so Imust not be a godly woman.
And it wasn't until I startedstudying.
Thankfully, in my home westudied through women of the
Bible.
My dad had this book called Allthe Women of the Bible by
Herbert Lockyer, and while Idisagree a lot with things.
(01:50):
Now, it was definitely one ofthe books that made me realize
that God had a lot to say aboutwomen and I would flip through
and read and I realized that alot of women in the Bible
weren't necessarily quiet andthat it wasn't a specific
personality Like I didn't haveto be quiet.
I could serve Jesus with mywords too.
(02:11):
So, but it's definitely been astruggle throughout the years.
Yeah definitely.
Jessica Jenkins (02:17):
I know I really struggled growing up, feeling
like my personality just wasn'tthe correct personality.
I have a very type, A strong,big personality, very
opinionated.
I'm just going to tell youbluntly how it is.
I'm not trying to be rude, I'mjust not going to.
There's no frills.
I'm just going to, straightdown the middle, tell you
exactly how I think it is.
(02:39):
And that was just not.
People usually weren't overtlycondemning of it, but you just
got the vibe that it's likeyou're just not the right fit.
Elice Kilko (02:51):
The regular fit.
Yeah, no, that makes so muchsense.
And when we met, our strongpersonalities definitely had to
get along.
We had to work to make thathappen.
Jessica Jenkins (03:01):
But I think it was also our strong
personalities that we were likewe are going to be friends.
Elice Kilko (03:06):
Come hell or high water, we're going to make this
work.
Jessica Jenkins (03:09):
We will make this work and we decided, and
that was that Like we had bumps,but here we are this many years
later?
Elice Kilko (03:19):
Yeah, a lot of years later.
Jessica Jenkins (03:22):
I don't want to do that, but yeah, yeah, a lot
of years later I don't want todo that, but yeah.
So, yeah, that whole culturalvibe that women are supposed to
have and you expect women in theBible to have, and it's taught
that they have these gentle,quiet spirits and if you see
someone not being they're like,well, they were still gentle and
quiet because the Bible saysyou have to be so and it kind of
(03:46):
created, for me at least alittle bit, this cognitive
dissidence Cause you have, likeDeborah and JL and Abigail
Abigail.
Elice Kilko (03:54):
Who made?
Jessica Jenkins (03:54):
this spot and Abigail and some of them I don't
want to get sidetracked toomuch, but there was also like
Deborah, Abigail were also likethe circles I was in couldn't
fully decide, decide if theywere positive or not quite
positive female examples fromthe Old Testament.
If it was something you should,if you should follow their
example or not.
(04:14):
That's true.
It's kind of like I don't knowabout them, but the Proverbs 31
woman you definitely should belike the Proverbs 31 woman that
was drilled in Proverbs 31 woman, Like that was drilled in
Proverbs 31, Titus two.
That is what you need to liveup to and these women are
homemaking nurturers.
They're super feminine andthat's what you need to be,
(04:36):
exactly like them.
Elice Kilko (04:38):
Yes, which made it so hard to live up to that?
Yeah, what did you find otherpeople saying as you studied
Proverbs 31?
Jessica Jenkins (04:51):
I looked at a few things.
Abigail Dodds in her articlethe Beauty of Womanhood Her
Uniqueness Makes Her Essentialon the Desiring God website.
She said that when we, as women, forsake our feminine glory in
pursuit of the uniqueness thatbelongs to men, we abandon our
God-given glory.
We become usurpers,persistently insisting that our
(05:13):
uterus and biology are equal tonothing irrelevant.
Women believe the lie that inorder to be relevant in a man's
world, you must become like aman when the opposite is true
world.
You must become like a man whenthe opposite is true.
So I found these people talkingabout how women need to be
uniquely feminine.
It is God's design that youhave to be uniquely feminine in
(05:37):
a very feminine way.
Like no confusion, no masculinetraits.
You have to be feminine.
No confusion, no masculinetraits.
You have to be feminine.
Trillian Newbell in her chapterin Design for Joy her chapter is
the Feminine Focus.
She says it's not merelyphysical attributes that make us
male and female.
Femininity goes much deeperthan what we see in the mirror.
(05:58):
God created us with roles andinstincts that are distinctly
feminine and I remember growingup hearing vestiges of this like
you have to be distinctlyfeminine.
Of course, nobody ever fullydefined what that meant.
It was for me.
I like things a little moreconcrete and it was kind of this
nebulous concept and I'm tryingto figure out social skills and
(06:21):
I'm just like what do I want?
Like pearls, social skills andI'm just like what do I want?
What is like pearls trickledown to personality, yeah, like
I wear pearls, I curl my hair,uh, wear skirts, um, but when I
step in a room I kind of takecharge and everybody's okay with
that.
But that's not okay because andit's not feminine and I don't
(06:45):
know what I'm doing here, okay,and then they would add the
nurturing word on top of it.
Women are feminine andnurturing.
I'm like, okay, nurturing,what's that?
Is that like taking care ofbabies and toddlers?
Because count me out, notinterested in babies and
toddlers?
Is that soul care of smallpeople?
Okay, I might be able to dothat for, like you know, older
(07:06):
elementary, I'm finding, as mykids get older, I'm like, okay,
soul care of small humans thatcan actually have a conversation
, I can do that.
But is that nurturing or isthat just shepherding?
And now we're getting funny onour terms and I felt like these
words you had to be distinctlyfeminine, but nobody could
actually define what that meant.
Or when they did, I didn't fitthe bill because it ended up
(07:30):
like a soft, gentle personality.
Elice Kilko (07:35):
Yeah, that's not me , which is not you?
Jessica Jenkins (07:39):
Not ever.
So it was just a very, veryconfusing.
Did you run into any of that?
Like you have to be overtlyfeminine teaching.
Elice Kilko (07:51):
Yeah, I was always growing up.
I was always closer to my dadthan my mom and.
I was never into sports oranything and I loved, you know,
cooking and a lot of things thatare now very like homemaking,
sort of things.
I care very deeply about myfriends, which you could say is
(08:13):
nurturing, but I always feltlike I was too loud, or you know
, I was too.
By loud I don't mean necessarilyvolume, but too outspoken and
too direct and I had too, mucheye contact with the opposite
(08:35):
sex for some people, and I wasjust trying to get my point
across.
Jessica Jenkins (08:40):
Yep Make sure they understand what you're
saying across.
Elice Kilko (08:51):
Yeah, Make sure they understand what you're
saying.
Yes, People accuse me often ofbeing cold, but I didn't mean to
.
People told me that I hadspikes on my shoulder, like a
cold shoulder, and there werespikes on that cold shoulder.
So, yeah, I heard a lot of thatand I didn't know how that fit,
(09:14):
because I wanted to love Godand I wanted to show God's love
to my friends and to the peoplewho were around me and I loved,
you know, like I loved workingin the nursery growing up.
So you know, I loved babies,but I just, in so many ways I
didn't fit the exact.
You know, I always wanted to beunique in my style, which means
I didn't wear I needed pink andI didn't want to wear lace or
(09:36):
frills, you know.
So I definitely struggledthrough a lot of that through my
teenage years.
I wore t-shirts and cargoshorts and you know, just like
was very tomboyish in myappearance, Um, and I didn't
know how that fit with a gentleand quiet spirit or you know,
(09:57):
how am I supposed to um, fulfillthis femininity that I don't
feel connected to in a lot ofways?
Yeah, so I really struggledwith that, especially through my
teen years.
Jessica Jenkins (10:10):
Yeah, no, I felt like I struggled with a
huge amount of personality.
Women talk about how they havelike body image issues because
they don't match up to likecosmopolitan or ideal.
I always felt like I hadpersonality image issues because
they don't match up to likecosmopolitan or ideal.
I always felt like I hadpersonality image issues, like I
was constantly trying to likemask or make myself smaller, and
(10:38):
it never really worked.
And even when I could do that,it wasn't good for my soul do
that it wasn't good for my soul,and as I'm hearing us both talk
about this, knowing what I knownow about neurodivergence, I
wonder how much of ourexperience is having ADHD,
having some neurodivergence, andthat being a piece as well,
(11:00):
where some of the quotestereotypical femininity pieces
are much more neurotypicalperhaps.
I'm just throwing that outthere because I know a lot of
our listeners are neurodivergentas well and that makes identity
really challenging as you aretrying to go through it.
Elice Kilko (11:20):
Yes.
Jessica Jenkins (11:20):
Yeah.
Elice Kilko (11:21):
And even with issues of never feeling like you
fit in and all of that yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (11:25):
Like.
You just can't figure out howto be the right kind of girl.
Elice Kilko (11:29):
Mm, hmm.
Jessica Jenkins (11:30):
Yeah, yeah.
So Proverbs 31, I avoidedforever because I was just sure
it was going to be another youdon't match up, you're not good
enough kind of passage.
And I did not need any more ofthat in my life after Bible,
(11:50):
college and seminary and all thevoices being like you have to
be overtly feminine and I justwasn't.
Elice Kilko (11:57):
Yes, which is so hard?
Yeah, so where do you see?
What do you see in Proverbs 31that speaks to this difficulty
that we both have and that wegrew up with and struggled with
all through our teen years?
Jessica Jenkins (12:11):
Proverbs 31, as I studied it in the Hebrew,
completely shocked me.
I was not expecting anythingthat I found in this passage,
especially related to like herpersonality, because when you
look at the Proverbs 31 woman,the language they use to
describe her and we miss it inthe English.
(12:33):
So if you want to see more ofthe Hebrew nuances of the text
brought out, go to my website,wewhothirstcom.
You can download a free copy ofmy translation of Proverbs 31
from the Hebrew.
In the English you miss a lotof it, but the Hebrew is overtly
masculine in its description ofthe Proverbs 31 woman, which
(12:57):
completely shocked me.
Elice Kilko (12:59):
Which is incredible .
So you're saying that the wordsthat they use in Hebrew are
words that people in that timewould associate with masculine
traits?
Jessica Jenkins (13:12):
Yes, exactly yeah, and so we can go through
some of those verses.
But for me it was completelyfreeing because it's like the
woman everybody is supposed tobe, like the Hebrew Bible
describes in masculine traits.
She was absolutely a woman, butshe was not anything like our
(13:32):
stereotypical perception of asuper feminine nurturing woman,
so she was a strong woman.
She was yes, and we'll talk moreabout that in a few minutes.
One thing I want to start withis talking just about how we
translate who she is, becausethey don't call her the Proverbs
(13:54):
31 woman in the text.
You will have a lot ofdifferent translations.
If you look at verse 10,there's a lot of different
translations like excellent wife, a woman of noble character,
different things like that.
I mean.
Books have even been writtenlike.
(14:14):
I had Martha Peace's theExcellent Wife on my shelf my
entire teenage college years asI was aspiring to be this type
of woman.
But when you look at the Hebrew, verse 10 says a woman of valor
who will attain far abovepearls is her price.
(14:35):
Verse 29 uses that same wordfor valor.
It says numerous daughters dovaliantly and you yourself rise
above all of them so.
Elice Kilko (14:45):
valiant is like another word for like courageous
, almost, or like virtuous, orlike a battle word.
Jessica Jenkins (14:53):
It's a battle word Exactly.
The Hebrew word for valor ischayil and it is typically our
English translations.
Typically translate that wordas noble character, excellent,
worthy or virtuous.
And those translations are notwrong because there is a depth
of meaning to the Hebrew wordchayil, but they miss, as you
(15:15):
just said, the battle componentof what that word is describing.
Elice Kilko (15:21):
Yeah, like we talk about soldiers who received the
Medal of Valor If we couldreframe and talk about a woman
of valor.
We have that connotation, yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (15:32):
And what's really unique is outside of the
book of Proverbs the only timevalor or chayil is used of a
woman is in Ruth.
Every other time so the wordchayil occurs 242 times in the
Hebrew Bible in 242 verses.
I should say In 238 of thoseverses it's talking about men.
(15:58):
I believe four, maybe six timestotal does it refer to a woman.
Most of them occur in the bookof Proverbs, once or twice in
the book of Ruth.
So overarchingly, chayil is aword to describe men.
It is a masculine antenna.
(16:18):
90-something percent of thetime.
It's not a word commonly usedfor women, ever in the Bible.
Elice Kilko (16:28):
It's incredible and really cool it is.
Jessica Jenkins (16:32):
And the most of the time that valor is used
it's a military term.
So it occurs in 242 verses but172 of those usages, so about
half it's in a military contextand I've gone through and I've
looked at them all it's amilitary context.
(16:53):
It can also be used to denotewealth, skill to do a task,
general strength or power,influence, and those other
meanings are often what peopleuse to try to translate it when
it refers to a woman, becausethere's no military context in
Proverbs 31, and the word isovertly military in its Hebrew
(17:17):
usage.
So they try to find somethingelse to translate it.
Rather than simply calling herthe woman of valor, they say
she's the excellent wife, awoman of wealth who can find.
But I find they're not wantingto call out what the Hebrew is
actually doing there.
Elice Kilko (17:35):
Which is a shame for all of the people like us
who never felt like they fit in.
Jessica Jenkins (17:41):
It really is Like if somebody had told me as
a teenager that the Proverbs 31was a woman of valor, which is a
military, strong, ferociousterm, I would have been like
what?
Like the Bible's literallydescribing me.
That would have done so muchfor my soul.
(18:05):
How does the idea of valor as amilitary term in describing the
Proverbs 31 woman, what doesthat do?
How does that change the feelof the passage for you?
Elice Kilko (18:25):
I think it definitely like last podcast we
talked about how it's not achecklist, how Proverbs 31 isn't
a checklist that gives you roomto be courageous and to explore
the areas of your personalitythat you want or need to be more
(18:46):
assertive in and show that youcan be this woman that God
created you to be in your fullpersonality.
Your full personality.
God made it and you can take itto God and he loves that.
So it really hits different,yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (19:06):
And I love how you brought out it.
It allows you to be theassertive that you need to be,
because a lot of the cultures Iwas in really was down on women
being assertive, and I thinkthat's part of the reason we
have had some of the like sexualabuse scandals in the SBC and
various things because women aretaught to not be assertive,
(19:28):
they're taught to not trustthemselves, so they don't.
They're not able to recognizewhen abuse is happening and then
even when they they do, theydon't want to speak up because
they'd have to be assertive andassertiveness is considered
divisive and it's just thiswhole head game that women start
playing like.
Should I even open my mouth andwe'll bring these themes back up
(19:53):
in later podcast episodes butthat empowerment of women to
stand up in godly ways we're nottalking about sinful
expressions here but to stand upassertively and say this is
right, this is wrong, I will goto battle for what is right and
God smiles on that in a womanyes, that's completely a
(20:18):
complete paradigm shift from thenebulous has to be overtly
feminine and definitelynurturing womanhood I was raised
in Like warrior woman versusnurturing.
They were going to saynurturing every time and the
warrior woman needs to go turnher plow into baby bottles.
(20:39):
Her sword needs to become acrib.
Like you hang it up and you gotake care of a baby, and that's
not the picture we actually seein proverbs 31 yeah, yeah, it
wasn't for nothing that Jaelused a tent peg to kill Sisera.
Elice Kilko (21:05):
She used her women tools to do a job that needed to
be done, and she was definitelya woman of valor.
Jessica Jenkins (21:15):
So let's move on to verse 11, because I mean,
we're just going to hit some.
We're looking thematicallythrough Proverbs 31.
So we're just going to hit somehigh points of these verses,
because this warlike themecontinues throughout the entire
chapter.
It's not just the beginning andthe end verses 10 and 29.
Let's look at verse 11.
Can you read that for me?
Elice Kilko (21:37):
out of the ESV.
Yes, it says the heart of herhusband trusts in her and he
will have no lack of gain, ofgain, all right.
Jessica Jenkins (21:47):
And then did you have another translation up
as well.
Elice Kilko (21:51):
I did CSB also.
It says the heart of herhusband trusts in her and he
will not lack anything.
Good Trusts in her and he willnot lack anything good, anything
good.
Jessica Jenkins (22:02):
So the phrase he will not lack gain or he will
not lack anything good.
In the ESV and CSB those wordsare the Hebrew word shalal, that
I would translate in this wayand spoil her husband will not
be without.
So not spoil like food thatspoils and goes bad, but spoil
(22:24):
like pirate booty or bounty wonin war.
This word is overtly warlike.
It's not just like oh, yourhusband will have everything
good that he needs, it's like no, her husband's heart trusts in
her and he will not be withoutthe winnings from her battle.
(22:47):
That's incredible.
Basically what it's saying.
You get like shivers becauseyou have this idea of her coming
home hanging up her sword andproviding him with plunder.
Like Like that could be anotherword.
Trusts in her, does the heartof her husband and plunder he
will not be without.
(23:07):
This woman is conquering Now,not literally battle conquering,
that's not the context, butthat's the imagery they're using
and again, it's incrediblymasculine imagery.
Elice Kilko (23:22):
So she's bringing provisions for her family
through the hard work that shedoes in a battle-like way, even
though it's not an actual warRight.
Jessica Jenkins (23:34):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
This word's very specific andit plays off the masculine
warlike imagery from Chayil inverse 10, valor in verse 10.
So the two verses are playingtogether and the author of
Proverbs 31 does not view thiswoman's tasks as easy, or even
women's work, as thecolloquialism goes.
(23:56):
Instead, the author comparesthe results of the woman of
valor's labor to bounty broughtback by men from battle.
He values her labor that highlywhich, in a lot of Christian
circles I hear them talkingabout how much they value
women's labor.
Being a mom is the mostimportant job in the world.
(24:17):
And they say all this and thenthe men don't want any part of
it.
Elice Kilko (24:22):
Yeah.
Jessica Jenkins (24:22):
Not all men.
I'll be the first to say thatbecause, like my father and my
husband, they are there, they'regetting their hands dirty,
they're changing the diapers,they're taking care of the kids.
My husband and my dad in manyways are far more nurturing than
I am.
If my kids are sick, myhusband's like, oh, come here,
I'll cuddle you.
I'm like I will take yourtemperature, I will run to the
store and I will get youmedicine.
(24:42):
I can cuddle you for fiveminutes and then mommy has to
move, because sitting still formore than five minutes to cuddle
you is literal torture.
My husband's like I got twohours, we'll just lay on the
couch and I'll provide youwarmth and comfort, like I'm
glad they have those nurturingtendencies because I will bring
back bounty from the grocerystore in the form of medicine
(25:07):
and I will lay it at your feet.
Yes, and that's important too,so I appreciate men who step in
to do those things, but in ourculture in the church, men talk
about being a mom is the highestcalling, but I don't want to do
any of those things.
But here, in Proverbs 31, herwork is elevated to the same
(25:32):
reverence as the warrior thattheir culture depended on for
safety.
Elice Kilko (25:41):
Are there other words like that in this passage?
Jessica Jenkins (25:44):
The next one I think is probably one of my
favorite.
Can you read verse 15 in theESV?
Elice Kilko (25:52):
She rises while it is yet night and provides food
for her household and portionsfor her maiden for her household
and portions for her maiden.
Jessica Jenkins (26:06):
So that word food for her household is not
one of the typical Hebrew wordsfor food.
This is the word prey.
I can't remember whichtranslation it was, but they
translated it meat, which wouldbe more accurate than just
general food.
But it's the idea of prey likea prey animal.
It's the imagery here.
In verses 10 and 11, we had theimagery of a warrior going to
(26:30):
battle, bringing back plunderfor her family.
This is a praise song for awarrior who brings back plunder,
brings back plunder.
In verse 15, the imagery shifts.
Now the imagery is of a lionessstanding over her kill.
She's just killed a gazelle andshe's providing food off of the
gazelle to her cubs.
(26:51):
So it's still that warlikeimagery.
It's just a slightly differentpicture and I love that.
The proverb keeps coming backto that.
It's not just food.
Woman, get in the kitchen andmake me a sandwich.
I'm going to go hunt a deer.
No, she is the one out therehunting the deer.
Elice Kilko (27:10):
She is the one bringing the prey back in which
should be encouraging to all ofthe women in your space who hunt
come fall.
Yes, which is exciting.
Jessica Jenkins (27:27):
They could all say I'm just being a Proverbs 31
woman.
I'm doing exactly what theBible says.
They now have a verse for that,their theme verse for the hunt.
One commentator said the use ofprey rather than bread or food
gives verse 15 the overtones ofaggression and pugnacity.
Elice Kilko (27:50):
Pugnacity is such a great word.
Jessica Jenkins (27:52):
It is, and especially when you are raised
in a culture where women shouldnot be aggressive or pugnacious.
They need to be quiet andsubdued, mild-mannered demure.
Yes, to have the passage belike no for a woman to be
appropriately aggressive andeven I'm showing my own culture,
(28:15):
because for a man to beaggressive, you don't have to
hedge that- yeah.
But as a woman I feel like Ihave to hedge saying a woman, a
man, to be aggressive.
You don't have to hedge that.
But as a woman I feel like Ihave to hedge saying a woman's
going to be she's appropriatelyaggressive.
But I wouldn't ever say a manhas to be appropriately
aggressive.
So I'm finding myself evenhedging that kind of statement.
But to have that, that we canbe what we are called to be
(28:41):
situationally she's not alwaysbringing home prey, it's as the
need requires, but we can stepup in those ways is so freeing
for my soul.
Elice Kilko (28:54):
So here then we see that she's a force to be
reckoned with.
She's this woman of valor, istruly not passive or limiting
herself.
She's being her full potential.
She's meeting her fullpotential.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So.
Are there other verses?
Jessica Jenkins (29:16):
Oh you know there are.
So verse 17,.
I'm just going to read mytranslation of it.
Verse 17 says she girds herloins with strength and makes
her arms mighty.
What on earth does it mean togird one's loins?
That is not the way we evertalk.
Elice Kilko (29:37):
Well, I know from growing up that it was like when
they would tie their um, liketheir clothes up so that they
could do labor or battle, sothat they could have free,
freedom of movement yeah, oneway I've seen it done is like
you stand and you bring, becauseeven the men wore long robes.
Jessica Jenkins (29:59):
You'd bring the robe up between your legs and
tuck it in the belt in front, oryou could like kind of tie it
on the sides.
Yes, but again, this is anotherphrase that is overtly
masculine in its description.
Women are not describedanywhere in the Old Testament as
girding their loins.
Nowhere, nowhere.
Women do not gird their loinsin the Old Testament.
(30:21):
Only men gird their loins.
And here, the Proverbs 31,woman is doing a stereotypically
male endeavor again.
So as I think about thoseinitial quotes I read from
complementarian thinkers likeAbigail Dodds and Trillia
Newbell, where they're like,women have to be overtly
feminine.
They can't be masculine in anyway.
(30:43):
Then you read the Hebrew ofProverbs 31 and you go wait a
minute.
Elice Kilko (30:48):
There's a total disconnect in what the Hebrew is
saying and how we, howcomplementarians, often see it
in this day and age.
Jessica Jenkins (30:57):
Yes, and even complementarian articles on
Proverbs 31,.
They'll be like women should bestrong in that they should be
confident in God's goodness andthey should work hard in their
homes.
And that's about as far as theytake it.
They don't get into wait aminute, because on one side you
have to be overtly feminine,like they are stuck to that idea
(31:21):
.
Yeah, but Proverbs 31 is not atall.
We see in Proverbs 31, thisperception of gender roles that
the Proverbs 31 is not stayingwithin.
We see her working vigorouslyin areas of the masculine domain
in her culture without losingher femininity or her
(31:44):
God-honoring status as a woman.
God likes what this woman isdoing, or we wouldn't have the
inspired scripture in our Bible.
Yeah, when I started looking atProverbs 31 as things as a
cultural representation ofcharacteristics that God likes
in women, it completely changedmy perspective.
Elice Kilko (32:06):
I can totally see that.
I can see how it would changethat, for sure.
Jessica Jenkins (32:33):
Because she doesn't go about her tasks
diminutively quietly.
She walks in with greatconfidence and exercises.
If you're interested in therole of women in the Old
Testament family and what thatlooked like, I have a talk on
patricentrism and heterarchy.
Up on my YouTube channel youcan find that.
Search for we who Thirstpodcasts and you'll be able to
find that lecture there and I'llwalk through all of the
(32:54):
different ways that women hadauthority and power in their
community and families in theOld Testament.
Just a side note, if you'reinterested in that topic, if
something was like oh, I want toknow more about that.
I have a lecture out there foryou and it has pictures it's so
good.
Yes, it does have pictures,which pictures are always great.
That's why it's on YouTube,because, yeah, it's really great
that way.
Elice Kilko (33:15):
So what ways have you found Christian culture
appreciates women's strength andin what ways did you see that
they reject?
We talked a little bit aboutthat, but what ways do you see
that are, yeah, in this day andage, we reject that.
And what ways do you see thatwe get that from what the Bible
(33:37):
is saying?
Jessica Jenkins (33:38):
The complementarians I've read and
listened to and just kind of thethe complimentary culture I
swam in.
I'm definitely not going toblame my parents because I think
they parented me pretty well,like they did a good job with
the daughter God gave them.
So none of this is blame likeon my parents, but we were still
in this cultural river thatimpacted me deeply, even though
(34:03):
it didn't come from my parentsspecifically.
They provided specific books,like Martha Peace's the
Excellent Wife, but it wasreally the cultural river.
The college I went to, theseminary I went to.
So the complementarians I'veread and listened to.
They say they want women to bestrong.
They really do.
If you go search any of theirwebsites for Proverbs 31,
(34:25):
they're going to say womenshould be strong, they need to
be disciplined, they need to beenduring, like what comes to
your mind.
How do they describe a woman'sstrength?
Elice Kilko (34:34):
strength, Um, yeah, I think it's definitely in like
stereotypical feminine ways.
So like, oh, you should bestrong in that you're, you know
working in the garden, that youhave a garden or that you you
know um hoist two babies on yourhips, whatever, but um, but
(34:57):
there isn't a whole lot of space, um often or there wasn't as I
was growing up for for women whohave, you know, really strong
thighs because they love to playsoccer, or you know um, just
different, different things likethat.
You know where their strengthcould be celebrated in the
(35:17):
strength that God gave them, foryou know where their strength
could be celebrated in thestrength that God gave them, for
you know a woman that likes todo CrossFit or something like
that which is not me, but butjust that wasn't celebrated.
You know, like here I wasfeeling outcast for my
personality, but I felt verycomfortable with other girls who
(35:41):
were struggling because theywere super tomboys that loved
playing soccer or, you know,were super sporty and they had
really athletic bodies, girlsthat were swimmers and had, you
know, these awesome shoulders,you know, just because that's
what their sport needed.
So I feel like it was itdevalued the way that our
(36:02):
culture talked about femininity,devalued the strength that God
gave women in like physical orpersonality ways, because they
expected, you know, women to bethis one monolith of a gentle
and quiet spirit, which to themmeant a soft voice and just like
(36:26):
a very, you know, vanilla sortof personality, which I don't
even like to say because I lovevanilla and vanilla from
different places in the world,like there's so much variance,
but you know, as peopleunderstand, yeah it.
Jessica Jenkins (36:44):
And there was even, not just like the subtle
cultural undertones, but evenlike john piper in um one of his
I think it's the um recoveringbiblical manhood and womanhood,
even talks about how womenshouldn't necessarily be in the
gym lifting weights and tryingto be manly by having muscles.
It's like she makes strong herarms.
Elice Kilko (37:11):
How does she do that?
I mean, she's probably grindingwheats and things like that.
That's a workout, it is yeah,but yeah, that's a bunch of
baloney, as my dad would say.
Jessica Jenkins (37:28):
Yeah.
But they wanted women to bestrong, but it had to be in an
overtly feminine way, so notmuscles, not personality.
Pushing out a baby is a nice,overtly feminine strength,
strong, strong.
But it couldn't be masculine atall.
But Proverbs 31 teaches us thatthe woman of valor's splendor,
(37:52):
her glory, is intrinsically tiedto God and he adores her
strength.
Proverbs 31 is God saying Ilove a strong, even a woman who
transgresses some of thesegender boundaries a little bit,
(38:13):
where she is a woman after hisown heart, but she's a little
masculine and God's like I likethat.
I made her like that, that'sbeautiful.
Elice Kilko (38:24):
It allows for such a full spectrum of what being a
woman looks like.
You can be the lace and flowerfeminine, quiet woman and honor
the Lord and you can be thewarrior princess who goes after
what she believes God wants herto do and is also a Proverbs 31
(38:49):
woman, a woman of valor.
Jessica Jenkins (38:52):
God likes women of all types.
I feel like that is part of thefullness that Proverbs 31 helps
us to see, because you have toread 1 Peter 3, the gentle,
quiet spirit alongside theferocious warrior who provides
prey and plunder for her family.
They're not mutually exclusiveand God delights in both, in
(39:16):
both.
And I really want to speakespecially for a moment to those
listening who might like.
We've talked a lot about thewoman with the strong
personalities and thewarrior-esque-ness, but I want
to talk briefly to the women whoare like.
But I am the nurturing, quiet,demure woman and I just want to
(39:42):
say to that listener that'sbeautiful.
I don't want anyone to walk awayfrom this thinking that that
kind of woman is worse or not asgood, or that God doesn't
delight in that, becauseProverbs 31 uses the masculine
language.
The fact that it uses themasculine warlike imagery in
Proverbs 31 is not saying aquiet, gentle, demure, more
soft-spoken, careful-thinking,not assertive woman is a wrong
(40:08):
way to be a woman.
That's not at all, becausethere's other passages that
bring out the beauty of that andGod delights in that as well.
I want us all to be able tothink about a well-rounded
womanhood where women areallowed to be whole people.
We're not caricatures of anideal, we are whole people and
that's going to look differentfor every woman and that's good.
(40:32):
We are all being transformed inour character to exemplify the
fruit of the Spirit and a 1Corinthians 13 love.
Elice Kilko (40:42):
But we do that in a myriad of beautiful personality
types, body types, expressionsthat God delights in that gives
us so much encouragement as wego forward to be, encouragement
as we go forward to be whoeverGod made us to be, regardless of
our personality.
(41:02):
We can be sure that, if we'reseeking to please the Lord and
follow his example, that we'regoing to be pleasing to him,
which is so different than thevibe we usually get when we
study Proverbs 31.
Jessica Jenkins (41:17):
Yeah, I avoided Proverbs 31.
And then I felt like, when Inoticed all these things, it was
literally a love letter fromGod and I'm like not the one to
say it's a love letter for theBible scriptures or love letter
written to you, because theBible's not written to us.
But in that devotional moment Ijust I felt like the Lord was
(41:37):
saying for the first timeJessica, it's okay, exactly who
I made you to be is okay.
Not only is it okay, I thinkit's awesome and that has been
incredibly transformative in mymind and heart and I really hope
(41:59):
for someone listening out therewho needs that same message
that this will bring them hopethat God didn't mess up and make
you a girl when he should havemade you a boy, because you have
the wrong personality to be thequote Christian girl.
God made you exactly the way hewanted you, with a mixture of
(42:21):
traits, and that is okay to haveas a woman, and God delights in
that.
Well, thank you all so much forlistening.
Next episode we are going totalk about the Proverbs 31 woman
and her husband and lay outthat relationship a little bit,
(42:42):
emphasizing trust and how Godwants women to be trusted.
I can't wait to talk to youabout that.
We will see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.