November 19, 2024 • 48 mins
What happens when God's people act in ways that don't reflect His character? Join us for a profound conversation as we unravel this complex question, promising to offer clarity and understanding. Co-host Elice Kilko and I break down this issue into three key parts: theological insights, personal reflection, and navigating practical living amidst disagreement. Drawing from Ephesians 4, we recognize that the church is a work in progress, striving to align with Christ's teachings while needing prophetic voices to guide us through our imperfections.
We explore the enduring struggle within the church of balancing the faithful and the unfaithful, addressing why some Christians may hurt others or misrepresent Jesus' teachings, while secular individuals might appear to embody kindness more fully. This episode emphasizes the importance of distinguishing God's character from the flawed nature of the church, as highlighted in Romans 8, which reassures us of God's unwavering love. Through a process of deconstruction and reconstruction, we aim to refine our understanding of a compassionate and merciful God who draws near to sinners and sufferers.
As we tackle the challenge of handling disagreements within the church, we discuss the courage required to speak truth in love. Whether deciding to stay, hide, or leave a community where hypocrisy prevails, we offer guidance on maintaining humility and repentance. This episode concludes with practical advice on establishing safe and curious conversations, especially with loved ones, ensuring that our discussions are framed by spiritual connection and authentic living. Embrace the courage to confront wrongdoing while nurturing your relationships with love and patience.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica LM Jenkins (00:01):
Welcome back .
We are continuing our breakfrom discussing women of the
Bible in order to focus on souland heart issues that are really
on a lot of our minds right nowthe last three episodes of this
podcast.
We've talked a lot aboutanxiety and how to process that
emotion.
I had an amazing conversationwith Becky Castle Miller, who
(00:22):
studies emotions.
You definitely want to get thatepisode if you haven't listened
to it already.
Today we are answering aquestion that I have received so
many variations of in my DMsand the question basically is
how do we understand God'speople not acting like Him?
(00:44):
This is a question that weighson so many of our hearts.
With me today is Elise Kilko,who has been my co-host for the
Reframing Proverbs 31 series,which is still on break.
We had our last episode of thatin September and will, lord
willing, resume in January goingthrough Proverbs 31.
Elise has been my co-host forthat.
(01:06):
She is a dear friend.
Elise, tell me, have you beenexperiencing this question, or
wrestling with this question ofhow do we understand God's
people not acting like Him?
Elice Kilko (01:19):
Yes, I've been seeing this so much.
As we look at world currentevents and what's going on in
the church these days, it'sdefinitely a relevant question
to a lot of us right now.
Jessica LM Jenkins (01:34):
Yeah, I think, as we process these
questions through, I want tobreak up our discussion in kind
of three general parts.
First, how do we process God'speople not acting like Him
theologically, how do we processit kind of interpersonally or
personally?
And then lastly, practically,how do we live with those with
(01:56):
whom we disagree.
So that's kind of the big coathangers to hang our conversation
on.
So let's start with how do weprocess this theologically.
Elice Kilko (02:08):
All right.
So one of the questions thatyour listeners have asked is how
do we process God's people notlooking like him, in the sense
that it's not just you know onebad apple where it's whole
swathes of the church, eitherdirectly or just by being
complicit and not speaking upcovering rampant abuse and
(02:34):
people not being like Christ?
How can we think through thattheologically?
Jessica LM Jenkins (02:38):
This is such a heavy question.
It is one I've personallywrestled with God through a lot
Like.
You say, lord, that the churchis your body, it is your hands
and your feet, and yet yourhands and feet are harming
people.
(02:58):
How can this work?
How can this be, lord?
What are you doing?
Why aren't you doing it?
It's such a heavy question.
One of the passages that hasreally helped me process it is
Ephesians 4, where Paul saysChrist gave himself the apostles
(03:19):
, the prophets, the evangelists,the pastors and teachers to
equip his people for works ofservice so that the body of
Christ may be built up.
And God just reminded me that,to be built up.
That he's not done building thebody yet.
We want to look at the churchas the body of Christ as though
it's finished.
(03:39):
It's done Pretty bow on top,present is wrapped.
It's perfect.
But this might be a horribleillustration.
It has helped me to think of itmore like Frankenstein's
monster.
It's not finished yet, it isnot where it needs to be and
it's kind of thrashing around innot great ways.
(04:00):
Sometimes we're hoping that itwould reflect the Creator, but
it's not done yet.
It's like a painting.
That's in that, like you start,you have a great sketch and
then you start painting and itlooks way, way, way, way worse
before it gets better, and soit's just that we are.
The church is in process hasbeen one thing that I've really
(04:23):
had to meditate on.
That the church is in process,yes, it is God's body, but it is
not finished yet.
It is being built up and heneeds the people of the church
to partner with Him in thatbuilding up process.
Elice Kilko (04:40):
That's a really helpful thought.
My son is really into buildingand construction and thinking of
a building that's half builtyou know it's not livable yet
that's another easy thing tothink of.
Jessica LM Jenkins (04:55):
So, yeah, that's really helpful
remembering that we're not thereyet, and especially in light of
current events or the sexualabuse scandals that are rocking
parts of the church, I thinkEphesians 4.11 is really
important, especially the veryfirst one or the second one.
(05:16):
So Christ gave himself theapostles and the prophets.
Our church needs propheticvoices, though they don't like
it, but they need propheticvoices to say this is wrong.
We can't keep doing this.
To call the church back and sayyou're not acting like God.
(05:36):
And that voice to call forththe apostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, the pastors,teachers they all function a
little bit differently.
God has given those gifts to somany different people in the
body, but sometimes we needthose prophetic voices to say
stop, you are not acting likeChrist.
(05:58):
And so it's being built up.
And we need people to remind ofthe diagram.
This is the blueprint of whatthe unfinished building is
supposed to look like.
That beam does not go there.
Put it over here Instead that'sreally good.
Elice Kilko (06:14):
Yeah, that's really good.
How else can we think throughsome of this question?
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:20):
The other thing God has just continually
reminded me, as I am a studentof scripture and generally
familiar with church history, isthat God's people historically
have not looked like him.
Elice Kilko (06:37):
It's nothing new.
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:38):
It's not a new problem Now.
It feels new to me sometimesbecause especially in the
fundamentalist adjacent worldthat I grew up in, we were the
church, we had finally kind offigured it out and, yes, we have
little things, but generallywe've kind of was kind of the
(06:58):
vibe I absorbed.
At least I'm not saying theytaught that directly, but that's
did you kind of get that vibetoo?
Elice Kilko (07:04):
Yes, oh yes, growing up.
Yes, that we had it figured out, we had the truth figured out,
yeah, and so?
Jessica LM Jenkins (07:11):
now a huge pain point, I think, for a lot
of us and I hear this from a lotof my listeners is that we've
grown up, matured, we are nowadults with families of our own
and we're looking at thechurches we grew up in, who the
vibe was, they'd figured it out,and we're like no, you didn't,
or they've shifted since we werechildren.
(07:32):
And I mean the seeds of thatshift is probably always there.
And as kids, how are wesupposed to know better?
We're like seven, but we'reseeing that and that hurts
because, yes, historically,biblically, theologically, god's
people not looking like him hasalways been true.
But in our experience, for manyof us, this is newer and that
(07:56):
we are having to wrestle withthe age old question, for some
of us the first time.
For some of us, we've beenwrestling with this question for
years, but it's comforting tomy heart to go back and be like
Moses was about ready.
Moses was like kill me, god, Ido not want to shepherd your
(08:16):
people anymore, just put me outof my misery.
And God was like I'm going tokill them.
And Moses is like no, no,please don't, please don't kill
them.
And we could just go throughthe entire, which we don't have
time to do today, but we couldgo through the entire history of
scripture Moses, israel, judges, kings, exile, return, silence,
which wasn't really silent, butthat's a whole side discussion.
(08:38):
You get to the gospels.
Jesus comes, god's covenantpeople, israel, most of them
rejected Jesus in the flesh andeven the ones who didn't reject
him didn't get it.
They're arguing about who'sgoing to be the greatest, and
those are the men closest toJesus.
Then you get to Paul and he'swriting letters which are basic.
(09:00):
Some of his letters arebasically like for the love of
all that is good and holy, stopbeing stupid.
And then John writes lettersand his are basically like well,
you went and were stupid.
And we see now there areletters that are like I applaud
your faith and you're doingfantastic.
(09:21):
So there's always remnants.
There are those who cling.
We see that in the OldTestament with the prophets who
are clinging to God.
We see that in the gospels.
We see that with some of thechurches that Paul and the
others wrote to, they wereclinging to God, but many were
not.
And so this mixed group offaithful, unfaithful failure,
(09:51):
this mixed group of faithful,unfaithful failure, clinging,
repentance, all of that is atheme that's gone all throughout
Scripture and all throughoutchurch history.
This is nothing new because Godis not finished with it yet.
And though it hurts and it'sdeep, recognizing the not
newness of this problem gives mesome perspective.
Elice Kilko (10:08):
Yeah, that it's not .
You don't have to invent thewheel, as it were.
There's truth there that yourforefathers have come to, and
you can put your hope in whathas already helped.
Absolutely what has alreadyhelped Absolutely.
(10:34):
What are some of the otherthings that you've been thinking
through?
A lot of the questions thatyou've dealt with that people
are asking how can, why areChristians hurting or maligning
people?
Or how can secular people bekinder than people in our church
?
How can people ignoreeverything that Jesus said or
(10:55):
twist love into something cruel?
How can people who seem sosincere about God be so
emotionally unhealthy or withzero self-awareness?
How can we think through someof those questions?
Those are a lot of questionsand they could probably be their
own podcasts, but what are somethings we can think through?
Jessica LM Jenkins (11:14):
One thing we can think through is that for a
lot of those sorts of questions, we just don't fully know.
It's easy to look at people andbe like, why do you do what you
do?
And when you're in closerelationship with somebody, you
might be able to drill down andfind out why they do Like with
my kids and they do something.
(11:35):
I can slowly, inch by inch,drill down, learn how they think
, how they work, to figure outwhy they do.
But when we're dealing withlarge swaths of people, that's
really hard, I would say.
I think a lot of this isbecause people at their core are
desiring safety and they areavoiding shame, and so they will
(11:58):
act in ways that are not likeGod in order to avoid shame and
make themselves feel safe,whatever that feels like, rather
than finding their safety inJesus.
Rather than going there, whichis what Paul and Peter is
continually encouraging thechurches in the New Testament to
(12:19):
do, you, they will lash out andattack those that challenge the
status quo, the safety, andbring to light areas of shame
that they would really like toignore.
And now shame language may notmake a whole lot of sense, but
you think about church culturesthat are very much you have to
(12:43):
be righteous, you have to beconfessed up.
You have to be.
You know every time you muchyou have to be righteous, you
have to be confessed up, youhave to be you know.
Every time you sin you need toconfess to God.
Kind of a scrupulosity, almost,or even if it's not fully
scrupulous, it's still just.
This sin is a personal thingthat you are responsible for,
and so sometimes people becausesin is completely personal
responsibility in those circlesto be told that they're messing
(13:09):
up feels deeply shameful, likethey are a personal failure, and
so they would rather lash outagainst the other person than to
deeply consider their ownculpability in systems or to
consider their own personalactions that have damaged others
.
Elice Kilko (13:29):
Okay, so theologically, you've talked
about Ephesians 4.
And as we process thentheologically, now
interpersonally, how can wetrust here's another listener
question how can we trust thatGod is safe when his church and
people aren't, or mostly?
Jessica LM Jenkins (13:49):
aren't.
This is really hard, and a lotof this comes back to the
theological questions we'vealready had, and we learn God's
character and that he is for hispeople and that he is for his
people.
Romans 8 tells us very clearlythere is now, therefore, no
(14:10):
condemnation for those who arein Christ Jesus, that nothing
can separate us from the love ofGod, and so in some ways we
have to see God as separate fromthe church, which is really
hard because we want the churchto be an accurate reflection of
Jesus, but unfortunately it'soften not, and so mentally for
(14:31):
myself, as I've wrestled withthis, I have to make the
differentiation that the churchdoes not always accurately
reflect God.
But I can see God's characterclearly in scripture.
I can see where Adam and Evesin.
They immediately break God'scovenant, and God doesn't come
at them with wrath, he doesn'tcome at them with anger.
(14:51):
He comes with them with gentlecuriosity, drawing them back
into relationship.
And I talk about this in thevery first episode of this whole
podcast, the Eve episode.
Listen to that if you haven't.
But God is constantly drawingpeople into relationship with
Him, and so this is wheredeconstruction and
(15:13):
reconstruction can be reallyimportant, because sometimes the
church has given us faultyideas about God that if you mess
up he's just going to hammeryou right away.
That if you mess up he's justgoing to hammer you right away.
And God approaches us withgentleness when we mess up, when
we are suffering.
He is bound by hiscompassionate, merciful nature
(15:36):
to draw near, like a mother doesher young child who is injured.
God is bound by his nature todraw near to the sinner and the
sufferer.
He does not stand far off likea judge saying, condemn that
person for what they did.
It is like the parent who hastold the child five times don't
(15:56):
run in those shoes, you're goingto slip and skin your knee.
And the child runs and theyslip and they skin their knee
and the good parent runs over,picks up the child and holds
them.
And that is the relationship,that God is safe in that way.
But sometimes that requires alot of deconstruction and
(16:19):
reconstruction to get there,because sometimes the way the
church has described God is notaccurate to his nature.
Elice Kilko (16:28):
That's so good.
Those are some really goodthoughts.
The next question from one ofyour listeners is so relevant
how do I distinguish myself fromthe people of God who don't act
like God without beinghypocritical or turning my back
on my community?
So many of us are dealing withthis question and thinking
(16:50):
through this issue.
What would you say to thoselisteners?
Jessica LM Jenkins (16:54):
I would say there's two different questions
in this question, so I want tokind of handle them separately.
First is how do I distinguishmyself from the people of God
who don't act like God withoutbeing a hypocrite?
So first is a concern aboutdistinguishing without hypocrisy
, and the second is how do I dothis without turning my back?
So let's talk aboutdistinguishment without
(17:14):
hypocrisy.
I would say the way you do thatis to be relentless might be
the wrong word, but to besteadfast in calling out that
which is evil, and to that meansboth in the world and your own
life.
So you distinguish yourselffrom people who don't act like
(17:37):
God by pointing out these thingsare not of God.
But you also do that ruthlesslyfor yourself.
You yell at your kid in frontof your neighbor and you try to,
in front of your neighbor, callyour kid over and be like honey
.
I was sorry, I should not haveyelled at you.
That does not honor God, thatis not how God loves us.
And you do that in front sothat there isn't hypocrisy.
(17:59):
It's like, oh, she talks aboutlove but she yells at her kids.
It's like I'm human, I mess up,but I confess and I repair and
I repent, and that is what keepsus from being hypocrites,
because it is when you preach astandard that you refuse to hold
for yourself.
(18:20):
That is where hypocrisy lies.
But when you hold yourself tothe same or higher standard, you
are holding other Christianswho aren't acting like God.
You're not going to be ahypocrite Because when you mess
up in those areas, you're goingto call it out and be like I,
messed up, and we have thefreedom to do this, because we
are not having to hold our ownsalvation by our goodness.
(18:43):
Back to what we talked about howsome people feel like they have
to be confessed up and theycan't be sinning.
They, I think sometimes, thoughthey would never say it, I
think sometimes, though theywould never say it fall into.
The.
Christ saved me, but now it'sall on me, sure, and if we can
live in the continual, it's noton me.
I am free to confess.
(19:06):
I messed up, I'm sorry, I wasgrouchy and I was harsh with you
.
That's not like Jesus.
I you know, whatever thesituation may be, and that keeps
us from hypocrisy and thatspirit of humility allows us to
(19:26):
call out these sins while beingvery aware of our own.
Elice Kilko (19:28):
What about the second part of that question?
How do you distinguish yourselffrom the people of God who
don't act like God withoutturning yourself or without
turning your back on yourcommunity?
That second part of thequestion?
Jessica LM Jenkins (19:43):
This is where it gets tricky and we'll
discuss more nuances of this aswe go through some of the other
questions.
But part of the prophets ofIsrael were distinct from Israel
in that they were calling outand holding up God's standard
(20:04):
for Israel.
So they're distinct becausethey're calling this is what God
says, this is what we need todo, and they're trying to live
out God's commands.
So they are distinct fromIsrael in that way.
But they did not turn theirback on their community, because
they are still entreating theircommunity to come back to God.
So you can hold up the standard, humbly saying, hey, I'm
(20:26):
messing up and I'm calling outwhen I mess up as much as I'm
calling out when you mess up.
But that doesn't mean we stopthat distinguishment, the
bringing people back to Jesus.
And sometimes that's more of aprophetic voice of thus says the
Lord, you are doing X and youshould be doing Y.
Sometimes that's a propheticvoice of saying Jesus is near.
(20:48):
And I see that you, you arestruggling to confront this fear
in your life because you areafraid of admitting that you're
sinful, because you're afraidthat if you admit you're sinful,
you're standing before Godmight be in jeopardy, and so I
want to help you see the lovingkindness of Jesus, because if
(21:12):
you can walk in the lovingkindness of Jesus and the
freedom of Jesus, then you willhave the internal wherewithal to
confront your own sin.
Then we can have a conversationabout how you're not living
like Christ.
Elice Kilko (21:27):
Sure, so that kind of goes into the next listener
question.
You gave some really goodthings to think about your next
listener question.
You gave some really goodthings to think about.
Your next listener question washow do you handle people who
claim Christ but look and actnothing like him?
And within current events,recent issues, this has come up
so much.
So how can we think throughdisagreements and all sorts of
(21:51):
things like that To?
Jessica LM Jenkins (21:53):
handle people who claim Christ and look
and act nothing like him.
Consider the disagreements Isthis, just show it, and it may
be two or three of these.
Elice Kilko (22:04):
It's or something.
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:04):
I'm not mentioning that I haven't
thought of in this moment.
But these disagreements canshow God's approval through
expressions of his character.
It can reveal our desires andthat's something we need to
examine closely and it can veryclearly sometimes show who is in
his will and who is not.
Elice Kilko (22:24):
So would you say then that we need to decide then
what kind of disagreement it isand then whether we want to
remain in fellowship at all andif so, how do we go about it?
How do we stay in fellowship,or how do we?
Do we stay or do we go?
That's such a big question too.
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:44):
It is such a big question because sometimes
when you handle people who claimChrist but don't look at him,
you have to decide can I stillassociate with this group?
And in the second Thessaloniansthree, where the people were
being idle and sowing discord,paul said stop associating with
them.
No more and we don't get thatclear of a distinction.
(23:05):
We have to really really walkin the spirit on this.
But generally, when you see agroup of people who are claiming
Christ and not living like it,you have one of three options.
There may be more, but I canthink of three.
You can stay in that group tobe the light of what they're
supposed to be to them.
That takes a lot of internalfortitude and that is a specific
(23:28):
calling of God.
You can stay and you can hide.
You can be like this is theonly place for me.
I'm just going to try to notget bogged down.
(23:52):
Yeah, I'm just going to try tomake it through here.
Or you can leave and you coulddo this quietly.
Or you can do this openly,sometimes loudly if there's
rampant sin.
So you can do it quietly.
You can just.
You know I think you said whenwe were pre-discussing in the
dead of the night you just bailand sometimes, especially if
it's highly abusive and you area victim, that is what you need
to do.
Elice Kilko (24:06):
There is no shame in being like for my safety.
Jessica LM Jenkins (24:10):
So you can leave quietly and sometimes,
when you're the victim, thatneeds to happen.
If you are maybe not the victim, or if you are and you feel
like you have the wherewithal,the support elsewhere to do so,
you can leave openly saying yes,we are leaving and here is why,
and we are concerned about X, yand Z, and sometimes and I say
(24:31):
this tentatively and only by theSpirit make this decision.
You leave loudly and you leteverybody know there are these
major sins going on and wecannot abide it and we will
leave.
And you stand your ground asyou walk out the door, heralding
(24:51):
the truth and shining light onthe evil which church cultures
do not appreciate.
They would prefer everybodyjust leave quietly, which is a
valid option, but sometimespeople need to say this is a
train wreck.
If you stay, you will crash.
You can leave with me or youcan crash.
But again, this is, we have tobe walking by the spirit and
(25:16):
discerning how he would have usand our individual situation
handle that.
Elice Kilko (25:24):
So then, how would you say you determine if a space
is safe, especially if wedisagree with a number of issues
?
So say that you've decided tostay and maybe not quite speak
up with everything that youdisagree.
How do you determine is thisspace still safe for me to be
(25:44):
here if I've decided to stay?
How can we think through someof those issues?
Jessica LM Jenkins (25:51):
There's several different types of
safety and I think determiningsafety will also help you
determine whether to stay orleave, because there are some
places that just aren't safe andyou have to leave.
And you may only disagree onone thing or another, but you
(26:11):
have to leave.
And I would come back to a lotwith what we talked to about
approval earlier.
A place is safe safer when itis reflecting the fruit of the
Spirit and a 1 Corinthians lovein most I'm not going to say all
(26:32):
, but in most aspects of thechurch is the leadership.
Are the leadership people whoexemplify a 1 Corinthians love?
Are they humble?
Are they easy to be entreated?
When you come to them with aconcern or a problem, do they
respond to you with curiosity ordo they respond to you with
defensiveness?
Do they blame you or do theytry to find out your heart?
(26:56):
And so it is easier to coexistin a place where you disagree on
issues if they are exemplifyinggodly character.
It also determines what are theissues that are being disagreed
on Carpet color.
It's pretty easy to stay in aplace with carpet color that you
(27:19):
hate because it's not really anissue, not a major break issue.
Right.
But let's say you have a personin your family with a severe
disability and the churchdoesn't think they need to be
disability friendly.
And you've talked with them,and even if they have a lot many
(27:40):
fruits of the spirit and theyseem easy to entreat and they
are curious, but they just don'tcare to care for people with
disability, that's adisagreement that you're not
going to be able to stay and,and so you have to weigh these
things out on.
What are the disagreements?
How heavy are they?
Obviously, this one pains medeeply because I see a lot and I
(28:09):
think this is where a lot ofour, all of our ache comes from.
Right now we see a lot ofpastors and men in power and I
don't mean that derogatorily, itjust is factual.
They are men in power who seemon the surface like they are men
of character.
This one's been in the news soI can talk about it One of my
(28:32):
professors in seminary.
His name was Dr Matt Queen,sweetest man you've ever met.
I mean he's going to cry andliterally cry and pray over you
in the hallway about someconcern you have.
He is gentle in his teaching,he is kind, he is gracious, like
if I was to say.
This man exemplifies the fruitof the spirit in 1 Corinthians
(28:54):
13,.
He would be it.
And then there was a sexualabuse that happened on campus
and his boss told him to make itgo away.
So he falsified records andlied to the FBI and is now going
to be.
I don't know what his sentenceis, I haven't tracked it that
closely, but he seems on thesurface.
(29:16):
But he did not have theinternal fortitude and backbone
to do what is right.
So when you're evaluatingsafety, first look to see are
they exemplifying fruits of thespirit?
But do they have the internalfortitude to do what is right
(29:37):
when push comes to shove, whentheir power is threatened and
when the weak and the vulnerable, who they gain nothing from,
are going to be harmed by theirinaction?
That's really important to thinkthrough those two things you
have to hold together, because Iknow a lot of really sweet,
seemingly godly those two thingsyou have to hold together
because I know a lot of reallysweet, seemingly godly people
(29:58):
who do not have the internalfortitude to stand up against
abuse, who would rather sweep itunder the rug and keep the
status quo than risk theirlivelihood and say, no, this is
wrong.
So you have to have both for itto be truly safe.
But the more they are doingthose things, even if you
(30:20):
disagree on the roles of womenin ministry or who we vote for
president or governor orwhatever, even if you disagree,
but you see them acting out bothfruits of the spirit and a
willingness to put themselves onthe line for the weak and the
vulnerable, then you know thisis a safe, generally safe place.
(30:41):
We can't always guarantee, butat least it gives us the
facilitators.
Elice Kilko (30:45):
Yeah, that's a really good framework.
So at what point do you speakup and what can that look like?
What are some things we canthink through.
Jessica LM Jenkins (30:55):
I would encourage us all and I'm
preaching to myself, becausethere are some areas I am
fundamentally angry in.
Right now I don't feel like thefruit of the spirit 1
Corinthians 13, or like thefirst things on my mouth.
I would much rather just lighta match and watch it burn like
burn it down, but all of us bear, as Paul would say.
(31:20):
It is good for you to bereminded, and it's good for me
to remind us all, that as wediscuss disagreements, we need
to walk in love and the fruit ofthe Spirit.
We need to make that commitmentRegardless them.
We need to walk by the Spirit.
Now, that doesn't meansometimes strong words don't
(31:41):
need to be shared, and this iswhere it gets tricky, because
there are churches, there arefamily structures where you're
not allowed to say strong words.
Strong words are consideredrude, and that's where you have
to considered rude and that'swhere you have to, by the Spirit
, learn that no, my boundary orme calling out sin is not rude.
(32:02):
That is godly.
It is still exemplifying fruitsof the Spirit I can look at,
and Elise and I have done thisto each other before.
We've been like hey, I did notappreciate when you did X?
Y Z, x, y, z, and then juststraight, blunt, straightforward
.
There are cultures where that'snot allowed and you might need
the internal fortitude to goagainst that cultural
(32:25):
conditioning, but it's not.
I want, dear one listen forthose of you who have been
culturally conditioned thatyou're not allowed to put
boundaries or speak truth, thatyou have to play nice.
Playing nice is not a fruit ofthe spirit.
Amen, it's not.
The fruit of the spirit isgentle.
(32:45):
You don't have to be harsh.
The fruit of the spirit ispatient.
You can wait a long time beforeyou say what you need to say.
It is steadfast.
It's going to hold firm to itsposition.
It is love.
You are looking for the good ofthe other person.
But niceness is not a fruit ofthe Spirit.
You can look at someone and sayI see what you did there and I
(33:11):
am deeply concerned that whenyou did that you enabled evil in
these ways and because of thatI can no longer trust you in
these areas.
That is not cruel, that is notmean they might feel like it is,
because the family structure orchurch structure says we don't
say things directly, but matchyour words to the fruit of the
(33:34):
Spirit.
You can be bold, you can beclear, you can be direct and
still walk in a 1 Corinthianslove.
Love is patient, love is kind.
You're not being mean tosomeone by calling out where
they have failed.
Love is patient.
Love is kind.
It does not envy.
It does not boast.
You're not putting yourself upto put them down.
(33:54):
It is not easily angered.
You are practicing self-control.
It's not keeping records ofwrong.
You're not necessarily bringingsomething up from or continuing
to bring something up from 15years ago just to beat them with
it.
Sometimes you do have to bringsomething up from a while ago to
facilitate repair.
That is peacemaking work andJesus says blessed are the
(34:17):
peacemakers.
So when we speak up we do itwith fruits of the spirit, and I
kind of went off on a tangent.
But I know there are those outthere who are in families where
speaking up of any kind orholding a gentle boundary is
frowned upon and they feel likethey're doing something wrong
when they're not.
I want you to hear thatlisteners Holding a boundary,
(34:39):
speaking up truth about evil,may be penalized by your family
or community.
That does not mean you are notwalking in the spirit and you
are not exemplifying the fruitsof the spirit.
So we always try to lace ourcommunication with love and the
fruit of the spirit.
Elice Kilko (34:59):
That's so good.
It makes me think ofPhilippians 4.8, because so
often, in so many circles,philippians 4.8 is used kind of
as a gag order you know if it'snot, if it's not true, if it's
not noble and it kind of getsused as this gag order when
really what it's saying is whatyou are speaking should be true
(35:22):
and noble and right and pure,and oftentimes calling out the
evilness, you can do it in akind way, you can say the strong
words and by doing that you'refollowing what God said, and the
God of peace will be with you,oh amen.
(35:42):
So yeah, that's so good, that'sso helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins (35:49):
I do want to give a caveat because if we're
to walk by the spirit when wespeak up, we also have to
recognize and this is where I'vehad to be with myself we have
to recognize when we're not in aplace to do that and step back
from those conversations.
I've had to recognize oncertain areas recently that I'm
not in a place to listen withcuriosity or even be
(36:10):
particularly kind.
My natural bent is to be bluntand in someone's face and I'm
walking around with a lighter inmy pocket ready to set someone
on fire and I'm like there arecertain people in certain
conversations I am not in aplace to have right now and I
need to not be having thoseright now because I could damage
someone, because my temptationwould not be walking in the
(36:33):
spirit and I would not belooking out for their good.
I would be venting my anger uponthem, which is not going to
help anybody.
Elice Kilko (36:44):
Yeah, that's such a good thing to know about
ourselves and to be intentionalin when we speak and when we
don't, when we sit out of theconversation.
So then another question thatyou got.
One of my friends said that hergoal is then to be curious and
hold an open posture so thatwhen she disagrees with someone
(37:06):
who has questions or concerns,she can be a safe person.
How do you know if that personis a safe person?
So she tries to figure out.
How do you deal with that?
Jessica LM Jenkins (37:20):
I think positioning ourselves as a safe
person can be really helpful.
I'm not saying we always haveto do that, because I do think
there are some areas in life wecan hold a hard line and be like
you can come thus far, but nofarther.
I'm not going to harm you, butI will allow no behaviors.
And then in some areas we allowpeople their messy wrestling.
(37:41):
I don't know if that makessense.
Elice Kilko (37:45):
So what you're saying is, then, part of being a
safe person doesn't meanholding no boundaries.
It means listening withcuriosity and having an open
posture, but holding a boundaryof here's where I stand, yeah,
within that curiosity.
Jessica LM Jenkins (38:05):
The more.
I think often, the more we canapproach people with curiosity
and help see what they need andwhere they're coming from, the
more beneficial theconversations will often not
always, but often be.
I think that should be.
Maybe our first goal is tolisten that way.
(38:27):
But I do think there are timesand we see it in scripture where
someone and you generally youdo this with someone you have a
relationship with, not someoneoutside.
Like you don't just pull upyour neighbor who you never
talked to and like give it tothem straight, but like I can
call up Elise and give it to herstraight because we have a
decade of relationship, thatgiving it to her straight is
(38:53):
built upon Somebody I knew I'mgoing to and I'm still curious
with her, but I can, I can giveit to her straight because we
have that depth of relationship.
If I'm building relationshipwith somebody, I really want to
leave it more open for thecuriosity.
But there are also times andthis is where we also read the
room You're talking withsomebody and you're positioning
(39:17):
yourself.
You want to be a safe place forthe person you're talking to,
but you're also needing toposition yourself as a safe
place for the people who are tooafraid and feeling unsafe to
speak up in that room.
So I might be a little morebold, direct, less curious, just
holding my line with AuntGertrude, because I know Cousin
(39:41):
Vinny over there needs me to bea safe space.
Aunt Gertrude doesn't reallycare.
So I might hold a littlestiffer with Aunt Gertrude and
kind of hold her, push back onher a little more harshly,
because I want Vinny to know Iam safe for trauma or viewpoints
(40:02):
and I'm aligning myself withgood rather than evil.
So sometimes I might sit downand listen to someone with a lot
of curiosity.
Sometimes I might push back onthem quite heavily, quite
guardedly, and the Spirit has togive us discernment on when to
do that.
(40:22):
And I think 1 Thessalonians 5gives us some really significant
insight on how to do that.
Let me read verse 14.
Paul says we urge you, brothersand sisters, warn those who are
idle and disruptive, encouragethe disheartened, help the weak,
(40:43):
be patient with everyone.
So he kind of gives us threecategories of people.
You have the idle anddisruptive person in this
illustration, that's AuntGertrude.
You have the disheartened,that's Cousin Vinny.
Then you have the weak, that'sUncle Jeff.
Elice Kilko (40:58):
The person that doesn't even know what to ask.
Jessica LM Jenkins (41:01):
Yeah, and so you're going to interact with
each of those people a littledifferently.
Aunt Gertrude, you might justbe blunt and no X, y, z is evil,
and here is why.
And she might blow you off andgo tell all her friends about
her crazy niece.
That's fine.
You're going to encourage Vinnyand Uncle Joe or the other
(41:24):
person who is just weak.
You're going to help them alongstep by step.
And so we try to walk in thespirit as we're talking with
individuals who are they.
Do they need to be warned, dothey need to be encouraged or do
they need to be helped?
All three I'm going to bepatient with.
But how hard or soft I come atsomebody let's say it that way
(41:51):
is determined by them and therelationship I have with them.
Someone I don't know as well,I'm generally going to come out
a little softer than someone Ihave a deeper relationship with.
Elice Kilko (42:01):
That is some really good framework for us to think
through.
Yeah, you have one morelistener question and I think
you touched on most of it.
But how do you deal withparents that are sure they're
right or anybody else?
You know parents that are surethey're right and we're not, and
they want to talk about it.
They want to engage,particularly when you love this
(42:23):
person.
Perhaps they're your boomerparents, perhaps not, perhaps
they're someone else.
Yet you feel disappointedbecause you see their hypocrisy.
Jessica LM Jenkins (42:34):
A lot of this will be dependent on your
relationship with them and howmuch open and honest
conversation is allowed in yourfamily dynamic my family dynamic
.
I can have really messy, unfunconversations with my parents
and walk away in complete suretythat we will be okay, our
(42:57):
relationship.
There is nothing I could do tojeopardize my relationship with
my parents.
Even if it's a messy, messyconversation and they hang up on
me, I can call back tomorrowand we can talk it out.
Not everybody has that safetyand so sometimes, and are they
(43:18):
willing to listen?
I have trust that my parents,even if we're going to end up on
other sides of the fence, evenif we are going to always
strongly disagree on this, wewill.
They are willing to listen,they are willing to be entreated
, they are willing to.
Let me call them out.
Some parents aren't.
They may want to talk about it,not because they want to know
(43:40):
you and your thoughts, becausethey want to get their point
home, and so you have todetermine what is the other
person's goal when they want totalk about this.
And there's a place to talk,there's a place to put up
boundaries and say like I'msorry.
This is an issue, I'm not goingto talk about I'm not going to
talk about, and there's a placeto share your disappointment and
the fact that you feel likethey're hypocrites.
(44:00):
There's a place not to, and so,again, by the spirit, we have
to discern those things.
But you also have my permission, if you're listening, that you
don't have to be pushed into aconversation you're not ready
for.
You might just be like I loveyou, I am willing to talk about
that.
I can't today.
Elice Kilko (44:17):
They might not like that, and that's their problem.
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:20):
That's not your.
You have that permission.
Elice Kilko (44:25):
Any other summarizing thoughts?
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:36):
summarizing thoughts, just that all of these
things are incredibly tricky towalk through.
I'm giving high level answersto these questions, but these
questions have real rubber meetsthe road consequences.
There are real relationshipsthat these questions impact.
There are real relationshipsthat these questions impact and
being able to discern safety foryourself.
(44:58):
Now, why would safety foryourself matter?
Let me go off on that for aminute, because I come from a
culture where you're notsupposed to necessarily seek
your own safety.
Why would safety for yourselfmatter?
Because if you are not safe,your body is going to be in
fight flight all the time, whichmeans your mind cannot think
(45:18):
clearly enough to hear thespirit much of the time I'm not
going to say always, because thespirit can if he needs to get
through.
But you will be more able towalk with God and hear the
spirit if you are in a place ofsafety.
That doesn't mean we don'tsometimes put ourselves in
situations.
Talking with Aunt Gertrude mayfeel really dangerous, but I
(45:39):
feel like the Lord wants me todo that right now.
We sometimes put ourselves inthose situations, but it is not
healthy and it is not good forour spiritual relationship to
live in a place that lackssafety, because often your mind
will become cloudy, you won't beable to hear.
You're going to hear the voicesof your culture above the voice
(46:01):
of the spirit, and you're notgoing to be able to swim your
way out of that, and so beingable to find safe people and
safe places in which you canprocess will help you learn to
hear the voice of the spirit,which will help you figure out
how to engage these trickysituations when the rubber meets
the road.
Yeah, so I think that is theadvice I have for those sorts of
(46:27):
situations.
Elice Kilko (46:29):
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.
We have so much to thinkthrough and I think that your
framework and the passagesyou've brought up have been
really really helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins (46:39):
I do pray that all of these things will
help us all as we wrestle,because our wrestling isn't over
.
This podcast doesn't begin toscratch the surface or solve any
of the problems, but I do praythat for Elise in my hearts and
all of our listeners' hearts,that God will continue to
shepherd us through all of this.
As we look and see, there's alot of people who claim Jesus,
(47:03):
that don't act like him, and mayhe guide us, step by step, how
to live that out.
Thank you all for listening.
Thank you for joining us.
Have a great day.
Welcome back .
We are continuing our breakfrom discussing women of the
Bible in order to focus on souland heart issues that are really
on a lot of our minds right nowthe last three episodes of this
podcast.
We've talked a lot aboutanxiety and how to process that
emotion.
I had an amazing conversationwith Becky Castle Miller, who
(00:22):
studies emotions.
You definitely want to get thatepisode if you haven't listened
to it already.
Today we are answering aquestion that I have received so
many variations of in my DMsand the question basically is
how do we understand God'speople not acting like Him?
(00:44):
This is a question that weighson so many of our hearts.
With me today is Elise Kilko,who has been my co-host for the
Reframing Proverbs 31 series,which is still on break.
We had our last episode of thatin September and will, lord
willing, resume in January goingthrough Proverbs 31.
Elise has been my co-host forthat.
(01:06):
She is a dear friend.
Elise, tell me, have you beenexperiencing this question, or
wrestling with this question ofhow do we understand God's
people not acting like Him?
Elice Kilko (01:19):
Yes, I've been seeing this so much.
As we look at world currentevents and what's going on in
the church these days, it'sdefinitely a relevant question
to a lot of us right now.
Jessica LM Jenkins (01:34):
Yeah, I think, as we process these
questions through, I want tobreak up our discussion in kind
of three general parts.
First, how do we process God'speople not acting like Him
theologically, how do we processit kind of interpersonally or
personally?
And then lastly, practically,how do we live with those with
(01:56):
whom we disagree.
So that's kind of the big coathangers to hang our conversation
on.
So let's start with how do weprocess this theologically.
Elice Kilko (02:08):
All right.
So one of the questions thatyour listeners have asked is how
do we process God's people notlooking like him, in the sense
that it's not just you know onebad apple where it's whole
swathes of the church, eitherdirectly or just by being
complicit and not speaking upcovering rampant abuse and
(02:34):
people not being like Christ?
How can we think through thattheologically?
Jessica LM Jenkins (02:38):
This is such a heavy question.
It is one I've personallywrestled with God through a lot
Like.
You say, lord, that the churchis your body, it is your hands
and your feet, and yet yourhands and feet are harming
people.
(02:58):
How can this work?
How can this be, lord?
What are you doing?
Why aren't you doing it?
It's such a heavy question.
One of the passages that hasreally helped me process it is
Ephesians 4, where Paul saysChrist gave himself the apostles
(03:19):
, the prophets, the evangelists,the pastors and teachers to
equip his people for works ofservice so that the body of
Christ may be built up.
And God just reminded me that,to be built up.
That he's not done building thebody yet.
We want to look at the churchas the body of Christ as though
it's finished.
(03:39):
It's done Pretty bow on top,present is wrapped.
It's perfect.
But this might be a horribleillustration.
It has helped me to think of itmore like Frankenstein's
monster.
It's not finished yet, it isnot where it needs to be and
it's kind of thrashing around innot great ways.
(04:00):
Sometimes we're hoping that itwould reflect the Creator, but
it's not done yet.
It's like a painting.
That's in that, like you start,you have a great sketch and
then you start painting and itlooks way, way, way, way worse
before it gets better, and soit's just that we are.
The church is in process hasbeen one thing that I've really
(04:23):
had to meditate on.
That the church is in process,yes, it is God's body, but it is
not finished yet.
It is being built up and heneeds the people of the church
to partner with Him in thatbuilding up process.
Elice Kilko (04:40):
That's a really helpful thought.
My son is really into buildingand construction and thinking of
a building that's half builtyou know it's not livable yet
that's another easy thing tothink of.
Jessica LM Jenkins (04:55):
So, yeah, that's really helpful
remembering that we're not thereyet, and especially in light of
current events or the sexualabuse scandals that are rocking
parts of the church, I thinkEphesians 4.11 is really
important, especially the veryfirst one or the second one.
(05:16):
So Christ gave himself theapostles and the prophets.
Our church needs propheticvoices, though they don't like
it, but they need propheticvoices to say this is wrong.
We can't keep doing this.
To call the church back and sayyou're not acting like God.
(05:36):
And that voice to call forththe apostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, the pastors,teachers they all function a
little bit differently.
God has given those gifts to somany different people in the
body, but sometimes we needthose prophetic voices to say
stop, you are not acting likeChrist.
(05:58):
And so it's being built up.
And we need people to remind ofthe diagram.
This is the blueprint of whatthe unfinished building is
supposed to look like.
That beam does not go there.
Put it over here Instead that'sreally good.
Elice Kilko (06:14):
Yeah, that's really good.
How else can we think throughsome of this question?
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:20):
The other thing God has just continually
reminded me, as I am a studentof scripture and generally
familiar with church history, isthat God's people historically
have not looked like him.
Elice Kilko (06:37):
It's nothing new.
Jessica LM Jenkins (06:38):
It's not a new problem Now.
It feels new to me sometimesbecause especially in the
fundamentalist adjacent worldthat I grew up in, we were the
church, we had finally kind offigured it out and, yes, we have
little things, but generallywe've kind of was kind of the
(06:58):
vibe I absorbed.
At least I'm not saying theytaught that directly, but that's
did you kind of get that vibetoo?
Elice Kilko (07:04):
Yes, oh yes, growing up.
Yes, that we had it figured out, we had the truth figured out,
yeah, and so?
Jessica LM Jenkins (07:11):
now a huge pain point, I think, for a lot
of us and I hear this from a lotof my listeners is that we've
grown up, matured, we are nowadults with families of our own
and we're looking at thechurches we grew up in, who the
vibe was, they'd figured it out,and we're like no, you didn't,
or they've shifted since we werechildren.
(07:32):
And I mean the seeds of thatshift is probably always there.
And as kids, how are wesupposed to know better?
We're like seven, but we'reseeing that and that hurts
because, yes, historically,biblically, theologically, god's
people not looking like him hasalways been true.
But in our experience, for manyof us, this is newer and that
(07:56):
we are having to wrestle withthe age old question, for some
of us the first time.
For some of us, we've beenwrestling with this question for
years, but it's comforting tomy heart to go back and be like
Moses was about ready.
Moses was like kill me, god, Ido not want to shepherd your
(08:16):
people anymore, just put me outof my misery.
And God was like I'm going tokill them.
And Moses is like no, no,please don't, please don't kill
them.
And we could just go throughthe entire, which we don't have
time to do today, but we couldgo through the entire history of
scripture Moses, israel, judges, kings, exile, return, silence,
which wasn't really silent, butthat's a whole side discussion.
(08:38):
You get to the gospels.
Jesus comes, god's covenantpeople, israel, most of them
rejected Jesus in the flesh andeven the ones who didn't reject
him didn't get it.
They're arguing about who'sgoing to be the greatest, and
those are the men closest toJesus.
Then you get to Paul and he'swriting letters which are basic.
(09:00):
Some of his letters arebasically like for the love of
all that is good and holy, stopbeing stupid.
And then John writes lettersand his are basically like well,
you went and were stupid.
And we see now there areletters that are like I applaud
your faith and you're doingfantastic.
(09:21):
So there's always remnants.
There are those who cling.
We see that in the OldTestament with the prophets who
are clinging to God.
We see that in the gospels.
We see that with some of thechurches that Paul and the
others wrote to, they wereclinging to God, but many were
not.
And so this mixed group offaithful, unfaithful failure,
(09:51):
this mixed group of faithful,unfaithful failure, clinging,
repentance, all of that is atheme that's gone all throughout
Scripture and all throughoutchurch history.
This is nothing new because Godis not finished with it yet.
And though it hurts and it'sdeep, recognizing the not
newness of this problem gives mesome perspective.
Elice Kilko (10:08):
Yeah, that it's not .
You don't have to invent thewheel, as it were.
There's truth there that yourforefathers have come to, and
you can put your hope in whathas already helped.
Absolutely what has alreadyhelped Absolutely.
(10:34):
What are some of the otherthings that you've been thinking
through?
A lot of the questions thatyou've dealt with that people
are asking how can, why areChristians hurting or maligning
people?
Or how can secular people bekinder than people in our church
?
How can people ignoreeverything that Jesus said or
(10:55):
twist love into something cruel?
How can people who seem sosincere about God be so
emotionally unhealthy or withzero self-awareness?
How can we think through someof those questions?
Those are a lot of questionsand they could probably be their
own podcasts, but what are somethings we can think through?
Jessica LM Jenkins (11:14):
One thing we can think through is that for a
lot of those sorts of questions, we just don't fully know.
It's easy to look at people andbe like, why do you do what you
do?
And when you're in closerelationship with somebody, you
might be able to drill down andfind out why they do Like with
my kids and they do something.
(11:35):
I can slowly, inch by inch,drill down, learn how they think
, how they work, to figure outwhy they do.
But when we're dealing withlarge swaths of people, that's
really hard, I would say.
I think a lot of this isbecause people at their core are
desiring safety and they areavoiding shame, and so they will
(11:58):
act in ways that are not likeGod in order to avoid shame and
make themselves feel safe,whatever that feels like, rather
than finding their safety inJesus.
Rather than going there, whichis what Paul and Peter is
continually encouraging thechurches in the New Testament to
(12:19):
do, you, they will lash out andattack those that challenge the
status quo, the safety, andbring to light areas of shame
that they would really like toignore.
And now shame language may notmake a whole lot of sense, but
you think about church culturesthat are very much you have to
(12:43):
be righteous, you have to beconfessed up.
You have to be.
You know every time you muchyou have to be righteous, you
have to be confessed up, youhave to be you know.
Every time you sin you need toconfess to God.
Kind of a scrupulosity, almost,or even if it's not fully
scrupulous, it's still just.
This sin is a personal thingthat you are responsible for,
and so sometimes people becausesin is completely personal
responsibility in those circlesto be told that they're messing
(13:09):
up feels deeply shameful, likethey are a personal failure, and
so they would rather lash outagainst the other person than to
deeply consider their ownculpability in systems or to
consider their own personalactions that have damaged others
.
Elice Kilko (13:29):
Okay, so theologically, you've talked
about Ephesians 4.
And as we process thentheologically, now
interpersonally, how can wetrust here's another listener
question how can we trust thatGod is safe when his church and
people aren't, or mostly?
Jessica LM Jenkins (13:49):
aren't.
This is really hard, and a lotof this comes back to the
theological questions we'vealready had, and we learn God's
character and that he is for hispeople and that he is for his
people.
Romans 8 tells us very clearlythere is now, therefore, no
(14:10):
condemnation for those who arein Christ Jesus, that nothing
can separate us from the love ofGod, and so in some ways we
have to see God as separate fromthe church, which is really
hard because we want the churchto be an accurate reflection of
Jesus, but unfortunately it'soften not, and so mentally for
(14:31):
myself, as I've wrestled withthis, I have to make the
differentiation that the churchdoes not always accurately
reflect God.
But I can see God's characterclearly in scripture.
I can see where Adam and Evesin.
They immediately break God'scovenant, and God doesn't come
at them with wrath, he doesn'tcome at them with anger.
(14:51):
He comes with them with gentlecuriosity, drawing them back
into relationship.
And I talk about this in thevery first episode of this whole
podcast, the Eve episode.
Listen to that if you haven't.
But God is constantly drawingpeople into relationship with
Him, and so this is wheredeconstruction and
(15:13):
reconstruction can be reallyimportant, because sometimes the
church has given us faultyideas about God that if you mess
up he's just going to hammeryou right away.
That if you mess up he's justgoing to hammer you right away.
And God approaches us withgentleness when we mess up, when
we are suffering.
He is bound by hiscompassionate, merciful nature
(15:36):
to draw near, like a mother doesher young child who is injured.
God is bound by his nature todraw near to the sinner and the
sufferer.
He does not stand far off likea judge saying, condemn that
person for what they did.
It is like the parent who hastold the child five times don't
(15:56):
run in those shoes, you're goingto slip and skin your knee.
And the child runs and theyslip and they skin their knee
and the good parent runs over,picks up the child and holds
them.
And that is the relationship,that God is safe in that way.
But sometimes that requires alot of deconstruction and
(16:19):
reconstruction to get there,because sometimes the way the
church has described God is notaccurate to his nature.
Elice Kilko (16:28):
That's so good.
Those are some really goodthoughts.
The next question from one ofyour listeners is so relevant
how do I distinguish myself fromthe people of God who don't act
like God without beinghypocritical or turning my back
on my community?
So many of us are dealing withthis question and thinking
(16:50):
through this issue.
What would you say to thoselisteners?
Jessica LM Jenkins (16:54):
I would say there's two different questions
in this question, so I want tokind of handle them separately.
First is how do I distinguishmyself from the people of God
who don't act like God withoutbeing a hypocrite?
So first is a concern aboutdistinguishing without hypocrisy
, and the second is how do I dothis without turning my back?
So let's talk aboutdistinguishment without
(17:14):
hypocrisy.
I would say the way you do thatis to be relentless might be
the wrong word, but to besteadfast in calling out that
which is evil, and to that meansboth in the world and your own
life.
So you distinguish yourselffrom people who don't act like
(17:37):
God by pointing out these thingsare not of God.
But you also do that ruthlesslyfor yourself.
You yell at your kid in frontof your neighbor and you try to,
in front of your neighbor, callyour kid over and be like honey
.
I was sorry, I should not haveyelled at you.
That does not honor God, thatis not how God loves us.
And you do that in front sothat there isn't hypocrisy.
(17:59):
It's like, oh, she talks aboutlove but she yells at her kids.
It's like I'm human, I mess up,but I confess and I repair and
I repent, and that is what keepsus from being hypocrites,
because it is when you preach astandard that you refuse to hold
for yourself.
(18:20):
That is where hypocrisy lies.
But when you hold yourself tothe same or higher standard, you
are holding other Christianswho aren't acting like God.
You're not going to be ahypocrite Because when you mess
up in those areas, you're goingto call it out and be like I,
messed up, and we have thefreedom to do this, because we
are not having to hold our ownsalvation by our goodness.
(18:43):
Back to what we talked about howsome people feel like they have
to be confessed up and theycan't be sinning.
They, I think sometimes, thoughthey would never say it, I
think sometimes, though theywould never say it fall into.
The.
Christ saved me, but now it'sall on me, sure, and if we can
live in the continual, it's noton me.
I am free to confess.
(19:06):
I messed up, I'm sorry, I wasgrouchy and I was harsh with you
.
That's not like Jesus.
I you know, whatever thesituation may be, and that keeps
us from hypocrisy and thatspirit of humility allows us to
(19:26):
call out these sins while beingvery aware of our own.
Elice Kilko (19:28):
What about the second part of that question?
How do you distinguish yourselffrom the people of God who
don't act like God withoutturning yourself or without
turning your back on yourcommunity?
That second part of thequestion?
Jessica LM Jenkins (19:43):
This is where it gets tricky and we'll
discuss more nuances of this aswe go through some of the other
questions.
But part of the prophets ofIsrael were distinct from Israel
in that they were calling outand holding up God's standard
(20:04):
for Israel.
So they're distinct becausethey're calling this is what God
says, this is what we need todo, and they're trying to live
out God's commands.
So they are distinct fromIsrael in that way.
But they did not turn theirback on their community, because
they are still entreating theircommunity to come back to God.
So you can hold up the standard, humbly saying, hey, I'm
(20:26):
messing up and I'm calling outwhen I mess up as much as I'm
calling out when you mess up.
But that doesn't mean we stopthat distinguishment, the
bringing people back to Jesus.
And sometimes that's more of aprophetic voice of thus says the
Lord, you are doing X and youshould be doing Y.
Sometimes that's a propheticvoice of saying Jesus is near.
(20:48):
And I see that you, you arestruggling to confront this fear
in your life because you areafraid of admitting that you're
sinful, because you're afraidthat if you admit you're sinful,
you're standing before Godmight be in jeopardy, and so I
want to help you see the lovingkindness of Jesus, because if
(21:12):
you can walk in the lovingkindness of Jesus and the
freedom of Jesus, then you willhave the internal wherewithal to
confront your own sin.
Then we can have a conversationabout how you're not living
like Christ.
Elice Kilko (21:27):
Sure, so that kind of goes into the next listener
question.
You gave some really goodthings to think about your next
listener question.
You gave some really goodthings to think about.
Your next listener question washow do you handle people who
claim Christ but look and actnothing like him?
And within current events,recent issues, this has come up
so much.
So how can we think throughdisagreements and all sorts of
(21:51):
things like that To?
Jessica LM Jenkins (21:53):
handle people who claim Christ and look
and act nothing like him.
Consider the disagreements Isthis, just show it, and it may
be two or three of these.
Elice Kilko (22:04):
It's or something.
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:04):
I'm not mentioning that I haven't
thought of in this moment.
But these disagreements canshow God's approval through
expressions of his character.
It can reveal our desires andthat's something we need to
examine closely and it can veryclearly sometimes show who is in
his will and who is not.
Elice Kilko (22:24):
So would you say then that we need to decide then
what kind of disagreement it isand then whether we want to
remain in fellowship at all andif so, how do we go about it?
How do we stay in fellowship,or how do we?
Do we stay or do we go?
That's such a big question too.
Jessica LM Jenkins (22:44):
It is such a big question because sometimes
when you handle people who claimChrist but don't look at him,
you have to decide can I stillassociate with this group?
And in the second Thessaloniansthree, where the people were
being idle and sowing discord,paul said stop associating with
them.
No more and we don't get thatclear of a distinction.
(23:05):
We have to really really walkin the spirit on this.
But generally, when you see agroup of people who are claiming
Christ and not living like it,you have one of three options.
There may be more, but I canthink of three.
You can stay in that group tobe the light of what they're
supposed to be to them.
That takes a lot of internalfortitude and that is a specific
(23:28):
calling of God.
You can stay and you can hide.
You can be like this is theonly place for me.
I'm just going to try to notget bogged down.
(23:52):
Yeah, I'm just going to try tomake it through here.
Or you can leave and you coulddo this quietly.
Or you can do this openly,sometimes loudly if there's
rampant sin.
So you can do it quietly.
You can just.
You know I think you said whenwe were pre-discussing in the
dead of the night you just bailand sometimes, especially if
it's highly abusive and you area victim, that is what you need
to do.
Elice Kilko (24:06):
There is no shame in being like for my safety.
Jessica LM Jenkins (24:10):
So you can leave quietly and sometimes,
when you're the victim, thatneeds to happen.
If you are maybe not the victim, or if you are and you feel
like you have the wherewithal,the support elsewhere to do so,
you can leave openly saying yes,we are leaving and here is why,
and we are concerned about X, yand Z, and sometimes and I say
(24:31):
this tentatively and only by theSpirit make this decision.
You leave loudly and you leteverybody know there are these
major sins going on and wecannot abide it and we will
leave.
And you stand your ground asyou walk out the door, heralding
(24:51):
the truth and shining light onthe evil which church cultures
do not appreciate.
They would prefer everybodyjust leave quietly, which is a
valid option, but sometimespeople need to say this is a
train wreck.
If you stay, you will crash.
You can leave with me or youcan crash.
But again, this is, we have tobe walking by the spirit and
(25:16):
discerning how he would have usand our individual situation
handle that.
Elice Kilko (25:24):
So then, how would you say you determine if a space
is safe, especially if wedisagree with a number of issues
?
So say that you've decided tostay and maybe not quite speak
up with everything that youdisagree.
How do you determine is thisspace still safe for me to be
(25:44):
here if I've decided to stay?
How can we think through someof those issues?
Jessica LM Jenkins (25:51):
There's several different types of
safety and I think determiningsafety will also help you
determine whether to stay orleave, because there are some
places that just aren't safe andyou have to leave.
And you may only disagree onone thing or another, but you
(26:11):
have to leave.
And I would come back to a lotwith what we talked to about
approval earlier.
A place is safe safer when itis reflecting the fruit of the
Spirit and a 1 Corinthians lovein most I'm not going to say all
(26:32):
, but in most aspects of thechurch is the leadership.
Are the leadership people whoexemplify a 1 Corinthians love?
Are they humble?
Are they easy to be entreated?
When you come to them with aconcern or a problem, do they
respond to you with curiosity ordo they respond to you with
defensiveness?
Do they blame you or do theytry to find out your heart?
(26:56):
And so it is easier to coexistin a place where you disagree on
issues if they are exemplifyinggodly character.
It also determines what are theissues that are being disagreed
on Carpet color.
It's pretty easy to stay in aplace with carpet color that you
(27:19):
hate because it's not really anissue, not a major break issue.
Right.
But let's say you have a personin your family with a severe
disability and the churchdoesn't think they need to be
disability friendly.
And you've talked with them,and even if they have a lot many
(27:40):
fruits of the spirit and theyseem easy to entreat and they
are curious, but they just don'tcare to care for people with
disability, that's adisagreement that you're not
going to be able to stay and,and so you have to weigh these
things out on.
What are the disagreements?
How heavy are they?
Obviously, this one pains medeeply because I see a lot and I
(28:09):
think this is where a lot ofour, all of our ache comes from.
Right now we see a lot ofpastors and men in power and I
don't mean that derogatorily, itjust is factual.
They are men in power who seemon the surface like they are men
of character.
This one's been in the news soI can talk about it One of my
(28:32):
professors in seminary.
His name was Dr Matt Queen,sweetest man you've ever met.
I mean he's going to cry andliterally cry and pray over you
in the hallway about someconcern you have.
He is gentle in his teaching,he is kind, he is gracious, like
if I was to say.
This man exemplifies the fruitof the spirit in 1 Corinthians
(28:54):
13,.
He would be it.
And then there was a sexualabuse that happened on campus
and his boss told him to make itgo away.
So he falsified records andlied to the FBI and is now going
to be.
I don't know what his sentenceis, I haven't tracked it that
closely, but he seems on thesurface.
(29:16):
But he did not have theinternal fortitude and backbone
to do what is right.
So when you're evaluatingsafety, first look to see are
they exemplifying fruits of thespirit?
But do they have the internalfortitude to do what is right
(29:37):
when push comes to shove, whentheir power is threatened and
when the weak and the vulnerable, who they gain nothing from,
are going to be harmed by theirinaction?
That's really important to thinkthrough those two things you
have to hold together, because Iknow a lot of really sweet,
seemingly godly those two thingsyou have to hold together
because I know a lot of reallysweet, seemingly godly people
(29:58):
who do not have the internalfortitude to stand up against
abuse, who would rather sweep itunder the rug and keep the
status quo than risk theirlivelihood and say, no, this is
wrong.
So you have to have both for itto be truly safe.
But the more they are doingthose things, even if you
(30:20):
disagree on the roles of womenin ministry or who we vote for
president or governor orwhatever, even if you disagree,
but you see them acting out bothfruits of the spirit and a
willingness to put themselves onthe line for the weak and the
vulnerable, then you know thisis a safe, generally safe place.
(30:41):
We can't always guarantee, butat least it gives us the
facilitators.
Elice Kilko (30:45):
Yeah, that's a really good framework.
So at what point do you speakup and what can that look like?
What are some things we canthink through.
Jessica LM Jenkins (30:55):
I would encourage us all and I'm
preaching to myself, becausethere are some areas I am
fundamentally angry in.
Right now I don't feel like thefruit of the spirit 1
Corinthians 13, or like thefirst things on my mouth.
I would much rather just lighta match and watch it burn like
burn it down, but all of us bear, as Paul would say.
(31:20):
It is good for you to bereminded, and it's good for me
to remind us all, that as wediscuss disagreements, we need
to walk in love and the fruit ofthe Spirit.
We need to make that commitmentRegardless them.
We need to walk by the Spirit.
Now, that doesn't meansometimes strong words don't
(31:41):
need to be shared, and this iswhere it gets tricky, because
there are churches, there arefamily structures where you're
not allowed to say strong words.
Strong words are consideredrude, and that's where you have
to considered rude and that'swhere you have to, by the Spirit
, learn that no, my boundary orme calling out sin is not rude.
(32:02):
That is godly.
It is still exemplifying fruitsof the Spirit I can look at,
and Elise and I have done thisto each other before.
We've been like hey, I did notappreciate when you did X?
Y Z, x, y, z, and then juststraight, blunt, straightforward
.
There are cultures where that'snot allowed and you might need
the internal fortitude to goagainst that cultural
(32:25):
conditioning, but it's not.
I want, dear one listen forthose of you who have been
culturally conditioned thatyou're not allowed to put
boundaries or speak truth, thatyou have to play nice.
Playing nice is not a fruit ofthe spirit.
Amen, it's not.
The fruit of the spirit isgentle.
(32:45):
You don't have to be harsh.
The fruit of the spirit ispatient.
You can wait a long time beforeyou say what you need to say.
It is steadfast.
It's going to hold firm to itsposition.
It is love.
You are looking for the good ofthe other person.
But niceness is not a fruit ofthe Spirit.
You can look at someone and sayI see what you did there and I
(33:11):
am deeply concerned that whenyou did that you enabled evil in
these ways and because of thatI can no longer trust you in
these areas.
That is not cruel, that is notmean they might feel like it is,
because the family structure orchurch structure says we don't
say things directly, but matchyour words to the fruit of the
(33:34):
Spirit.
You can be bold, you can beclear, you can be direct and
still walk in a 1 Corinthianslove.
Love is patient, love is kind.
You're not being mean tosomeone by calling out where
they have failed.
Love is patient.
Love is kind.
It does not envy.
It does not boast.
You're not putting yourself upto put them down.
(33:54):
It is not easily angered.
You are practicing self-control.
It's not keeping records ofwrong.
You're not necessarily bringingsomething up from or continuing
to bring something up from 15years ago just to beat them with
it.
Sometimes you do have to bringsomething up from a while ago to
facilitate repair.
That is peacemaking work andJesus says blessed are the
(34:17):
peacemakers.
So when we speak up we do itwith fruits of the spirit, and I
kind of went off on a tangent.
But I know there are those outthere who are in families where
speaking up of any kind orholding a gentle boundary is
frowned upon and they feel likethey're doing something wrong
when they're not.
I want you to hear thatlisteners Holding a boundary,
(34:39):
speaking up truth about evil,may be penalized by your family
or community.
That does not mean you are notwalking in the spirit and you
are not exemplifying the fruitsof the spirit.
So we always try to lace ourcommunication with love and the
fruit of the spirit.
Elice Kilko (34:59):
That's so good.
It makes me think ofPhilippians 4.8, because so
often, in so many circles,philippians 4.8 is used kind of
as a gag order you know if it'snot, if it's not true, if it's
not noble and it kind of getsused as this gag order when
really what it's saying is whatyou are speaking should be true
(35:22):
and noble and right and pure,and oftentimes calling out the
evilness, you can do it in akind way, you can say the strong
words and by doing that you'refollowing what God said, and the
God of peace will be with you,oh amen.
(35:42):
So yeah, that's so good, that'sso helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins (35:49):
I do want to give a caveat because if we're
to walk by the spirit when wespeak up, we also have to
recognize and this is where I'vehad to be with myself we have
to recognize when we're not in aplace to do that and step back
from those conversations.
I've had to recognize oncertain areas recently that I'm
not in a place to listen withcuriosity or even be
(36:10):
particularly kind.
My natural bent is to be bluntand in someone's face and I'm
walking around with a lighter inmy pocket ready to set someone
on fire and I'm like there arecertain people in certain
conversations I am not in aplace to have right now and I
need to not be having thoseright now because I could damage
someone, because my temptationwould not be walking in the
(36:33):
spirit and I would not belooking out for their good.
I would be venting my anger uponthem, which is not going to
help anybody.
Elice Kilko (36:44):
Yeah, that's such a good thing to know about
ourselves and to be intentionalin when we speak and when we
don't, when we sit out of theconversation.
So then another question thatyou got.
One of my friends said that hergoal is then to be curious and
hold an open posture so thatwhen she disagrees with someone
(37:06):
who has questions or concerns,she can be a safe person.
How do you know if that personis a safe person?
So she tries to figure out.
How do you deal with that?
Jessica LM Jenkins (37:20):
I think positioning ourselves as a safe
person can be really helpful.
I'm not saying we always haveto do that, because I do think
there are some areas in life wecan hold a hard line and be like
you can come thus far, but nofarther.
I'm not going to harm you, butI will allow no behaviors.
And then in some areas we allowpeople their messy wrestling.
(37:41):
I don't know if that makessense.
Elice Kilko (37:45):
So what you're saying is, then, part of being a
safe person doesn't meanholding no boundaries.
It means listening withcuriosity and having an open
posture, but holding a boundaryof here's where I stand, yeah,
within that curiosity.
Jessica LM Jenkins (38:05):
The more.
I think often, the more we canapproach people with curiosity
and help see what they need andwhere they're coming from, the
more beneficial theconversations will often not
always, but often be.
I think that should be.
Maybe our first goal is tolisten that way.
(38:27):
But I do think there are timesand we see it in scripture where
someone and you generally youdo this with someone you have a
relationship with, not someoneoutside.
Like you don't just pull upyour neighbor who you never
talked to and like give it tothem straight, but like I can
call up Elise and give it to herstraight because we have a
decade of relationship, thatgiving it to her straight is
(38:53):
built upon Somebody I knew I'mgoing to and I'm still curious
with her, but I can, I can giveit to her straight because we
have that depth of relationship.
If I'm building relationshipwith somebody, I really want to
leave it more open for thecuriosity.
But there are also times andthis is where we also read the
room You're talking withsomebody and you're positioning
(39:17):
yourself.
You want to be a safe place forthe person you're talking to,
but you're also needing toposition yourself as a safe
place for the people who are tooafraid and feeling unsafe to
speak up in that room.
So I might be a little morebold, direct, less curious, just
holding my line with AuntGertrude, because I know Cousin
(39:41):
Vinny over there needs me to bea safe space.
Aunt Gertrude doesn't reallycare.
So I might hold a littlestiffer with Aunt Gertrude and
kind of hold her, push back onher a little more harshly,
because I want Vinny to know Iam safe for trauma or viewpoints
(40:02):
and I'm aligning myself withgood rather than evil.
So sometimes I might sit downand listen to someone with a lot
of curiosity.
Sometimes I might push back onthem quite heavily, quite
guardedly, and the Spirit has togive us discernment on when to
do that.
(40:22):
And I think 1 Thessalonians 5gives us some really significant
insight on how to do that.
Let me read verse 14.
Paul says we urge you, brothersand sisters, warn those who are
idle and disruptive, encouragethe disheartened, help the weak,
(40:43):
be patient with everyone.
So he kind of gives us threecategories of people.
You have the idle anddisruptive person in this
illustration, that's AuntGertrude.
You have the disheartened,that's Cousin Vinny.
Then you have the weak, that'sUncle Jeff.
Elice Kilko (40:58):
The person that doesn't even know what to ask.
Jessica LM Jenkins (41:01):
Yeah, and so you're going to interact with
each of those people a littledifferently.
Aunt Gertrude, you might justbe blunt and no X, y, z is evil,
and here is why.
And she might blow you off andgo tell all her friends about
her crazy niece.
That's fine.
You're going to encourage Vinnyand Uncle Joe or the other
(41:24):
person who is just weak.
You're going to help them alongstep by step.
And so we try to walk in thespirit as we're talking with
individuals who are they.
Do they need to be warned, dothey need to be encouraged or do
they need to be helped?
All three I'm going to bepatient with.
But how hard or soft I come atsomebody let's say it that way
(41:51):
is determined by them and therelationship I have with them.
Someone I don't know as well,I'm generally going to come out
a little softer than someone Ihave a deeper relationship with.
Elice Kilko (42:01):
That is some really good framework for us to think
through.
Yeah, you have one morelistener question and I think
you touched on most of it.
But how do you deal withparents that are sure they're
right or anybody else?
You know parents that are surethey're right and we're not, and
they want to talk about it.
They want to engage,particularly when you love this
(42:23):
person.
Perhaps they're your boomerparents, perhaps not, perhaps
they're someone else.
Yet you feel disappointedbecause you see their hypocrisy.
Jessica LM Jenkins (42:34):
A lot of this will be dependent on your
relationship with them and howmuch open and honest
conversation is allowed in yourfamily dynamic my family dynamic
.
I can have really messy, unfunconversations with my parents
and walk away in complete suretythat we will be okay, our
(42:57):
relationship.
There is nothing I could do tojeopardize my relationship with
my parents.
Even if it's a messy, messyconversation and they hang up on
me, I can call back tomorrowand we can talk it out.
Not everybody has that safetyand so sometimes, and are they
(43:18):
willing to listen?
I have trust that my parents,even if we're going to end up on
other sides of the fence, evenif we are going to always
strongly disagree on this, wewill.
They are willing to listen,they are willing to be entreated
, they are willing to.
Let me call them out.
Some parents aren't.
They may want to talk about it,not because they want to know
(43:40):
you and your thoughts, becausethey want to get their point
home, and so you have todetermine what is the other
person's goal when they want totalk about this.
And there's a place to talk,there's a place to put up
boundaries and say like I'msorry.
This is an issue, I'm not goingto talk about I'm not going to
talk about, and there's a placeto share your disappointment and
the fact that you feel likethey're hypocrites.
(44:00):
There's a place not to, and so,again, by the spirit, we have
to discern those things.
But you also have my permission, if you're listening, that you
don't have to be pushed into aconversation you're not ready
for.
You might just be like I loveyou, I am willing to talk about
that.
I can't today.
Elice Kilko (44:17):
They might not like that, and that's their problem.
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:20):
That's not your.
You have that permission.
Elice Kilko (44:25):
Any other summarizing thoughts?
Jessica LM Jenkins (44:36):
summarizing thoughts, just that all of these
things are incredibly tricky towalk through.
I'm giving high level answersto these questions, but these
questions have real rubber meetsthe road consequences.
There are real relationshipsthat these questions impact.
There are real relationshipsthat these questions impact and
being able to discern safety foryourself.
(44:58):
Now, why would safety foryourself matter?
Let me go off on that for aminute, because I come from a
culture where you're notsupposed to necessarily seek
your own safety.
Why would safety for yourselfmatter?
Because if you are not safe,your body is going to be in
fight flight all the time, whichmeans your mind cannot think
(45:18):
clearly enough to hear thespirit much of the time I'm not
going to say always, because thespirit can if he needs to get
through.
But you will be more able towalk with God and hear the
spirit if you are in a place ofsafety.
That doesn't mean we don'tsometimes put ourselves in
situations.
Talking with Aunt Gertrude mayfeel really dangerous, but I
(45:39):
feel like the Lord wants me todo that right now.
We sometimes put ourselves inthose situations, but it is not
healthy and it is not good forour spiritual relationship to
live in a place that lackssafety, because often your mind
will become cloudy, you won't beable to hear.
You're going to hear the voicesof your culture above the voice
(46:01):
of the spirit, and you're notgoing to be able to swim your
way out of that, and so beingable to find safe people and
safe places in which you canprocess will help you learn to
hear the voice of the spirit,which will help you figure out
how to engage these trickysituations when the rubber meets
the road.
Yeah, so I think that is theadvice I have for those sorts of
(46:27):
situations.
Elice Kilko (46:29):
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.
We have so much to thinkthrough and I think that your
framework and the passagesyou've brought up have been
really really helpful.
Jessica LM Jenkins (46:39):
I do pray that all of these things will
help us all as we wrestle,because our wrestling isn't over
.
This podcast doesn't begin toscratch the surface or solve any
of the problems, but I do praythat for Elise in my hearts and
all of our listeners' hearts,that God will continue to
shepherd us through all of this.
As we look and see, there's alot of people who claim Jesus,
(47:03):
that don't act like him, and mayhe guide us, step by step, how
to live that out.
Thank you all for listening.
Thank you for joining us.
Have a great day.
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