May 26, 2025 • 39 mins
What if the reason your relationships feel like a constant rollercoaster is because chaos actually feels safer than stability? Relationship coach and psychotherapist Tannaz Hoissenpour illuminates how our nervous systems become programmed for certain relationship dynamics and why "boring" relationships might actually be exactly what we need.
Drawing from her unique background in dispute resolution law and psychotherapy, Tanaz breaks down the science behind our unconscious relationship patterns. You'll discover why sitting in the discomfort of not knowing can lead to profound personal growth and how our bodies physically store emotional memories that influence our current relationships.
Tannaz gives practical tools you can implement immediately, including the Four Horsemen of relationship conflict (and their antidotes), the proper way to take a timeout during arguments, and a revolutionary framework of the "six intimacy tanks." This framework challenges the Disney myth that one person should meet all our needs, instead showing how we can build a community of connections while honoring our non-negotiables.
Check out Tannaz Hoissenpour on IG & claim Tannaz's Free ebook on nervous system regulation
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Tanaz is a certified relationship coach, registered
psychotherapist, podcast hostand author.
She helps individuals breakfree from their unhealthy
patterns, regulate their nervoussystem and build secure,
fulfilling relationships.
Her work blends somatic healing, inner child work and
subconscious reprogramming tohelp clients feel grounded, safe
(00:22):
and emotionally empowered.
And on this episode we divedeep into what it means to have
healthy relationships withothers and yourself.
Enjoy the show, tanaz.
Thank you so much for joiningme on.
We Woke Up Like this and I'mreally excited to dive into
(00:45):
these conversations around fearand intimacy.
But before we do that, thispodcast is all about waking up,
and waking up to a new way ofbeing, a new way of being in
your own life.
So I'm curious what woke you upto become so passionate about
wanting to have conversationsabout fear and intimacy
passionate about wanting to haveconversations about fear and
(01:06):
intimacy.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, thank you, joy, for having me on.
And it was exactly that it'swaking up and realizing I didn't
want to have the life that Iwas conditioned to have.
So I was conditioned to be alawyer.
I come from a Persianbackground, so it's either a
lawyer, a doctor or an engineer,and I was really good at public
speaking and teaching.
So my parents just naturallythought law was the way for me
to go, got my master's indispute resolution law and
realized I don't really likebeing on the reactive side of
(01:33):
relationships.
I, you know, did some trainingon family mediation and it just
didn't resonate of like how didwe get from I love you so much
to who gets the plate andquestions and fights and
arguments.
That just left a big questionmark in my heart.
And so I woke up.
Literally I was like I'm notgoing to do this, but I didn't
(01:53):
know what to do.
I had been studying differentspiritual modalities, thanks to
my mom, from the age of 18.
So by that time I was around 24, 25.
So by that time I was around 24, 25.
And I knew that the answerswould come if I would sit in the
discomfort of not knowing.
And so I did.
And I had a book club at thetime and one of the girls said
(02:14):
have you ever heard of coaching?
And I was like I have no ideawhat that is, but let me look
into it.
And so I looked into it and itwas.
It was at the same time thatsomeone else said have you ever
heard about a podcast?
I'm like I have no idea whatthat is.
This is like 2017.
(02:36):
And so I really believe that theuniverse speaks to us through
other people, and so I nevertake anyone's suggestion lightly
.
I honor their words.
And so I looked into coaching.
I became trained as arelationship coach and a couple
of years later I went back toschool for my third postgraduate
degree in counselingpsychotherapy just having more
tools to help clients cultivatehealthier relationships with
(02:59):
themselves and others.
To kind of be on the proactiveside, because, based on the work
that I've done, I've realizedthat the status of the health of
our relationship is 50% ourinner work, but also 50%
relational skills that we justweren't taught and most of us
didn't have it modeled to us inour family of origin, and when
we know better, we can do better.
So really being on theproactive side of cultivating
(03:22):
healthier relationships.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Wow, I love that.
You said a lot of things that Iwas like, oh wow, that's really
powerful.
And one of them was sitting inthe discomfort and being okay
with sitting in that discomfortand I hear you being open and
curious and looking like whenwe're open and curious, we start
to see those messages that comein and I just really just want
to say I admire you for havingthe courage to follow that
(03:49):
nudging inside of you.
That said, I want to be on theproactive ends of things and not
helping people solve theproblem after it's done, or that
you know, like, like you said,who gets the plates, rather than
how can we heal and fix thisrelationship?
What would you say are waysthat people don't know, because
you said you're what you said isright 50% your own inner growth
and your own inner work, butthen also communication skills.
(04:11):
So what would you say are themaster communication skills that
couples or people looking for arelationship can master in
themselves and with each other?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, there's so many, and we'll dive into it because I
love to be on the practical,proactive side.
But before I do I also want tosay that sitting in the
discomfort of not knowing isn'teasy.
So I like sometimes I don'twant to glamorize it, because
you're going against generationsof conditioning.
You're going against your ownlike, your own belief system and
(04:45):
your own worldview.
Our brain is created forsurvival and part of that is
like this knowing, thiscertainty.
So if it feels uncomfortable, Iwant to honor that and say that
you know to not expectsomething different.
I mean, sometimes it comes withease, but most of the times it
is that it's very uncomfortableand challenging.
(05:08):
But and that's where communitycomes in If we have a strong
support system, people who cansee us and hear us and
understand us, it really makesthe world of a difference.
So putting yourself out thereand finding that community can
be really helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
but that said so, I just wanted to honor people's
journey and process and thankyou because you're right, it is
not easy.
It's not easy, it's very scaryand it does take a lot of
courage.
And you're exactly right,finding those places to be held
and witnessed and supported, asyou're in this process, is so
important.
So, yeah, thank you foracknowledging that.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Now we tend to do what our parents did.
So if I was raised in a familywhere you know, I didn't see
healthy conflict between myparents, let's say one of them
would storm out of the room, theother one would shout.
That's what I know, that's howI know to communicate.
So I'm going to repeat thosepatterns, those maladaptive
(06:07):
patterns, even though I mightknow that it's wrong, but
because that is what iscomfortable to my nervous system
, that is what is known.
It's like we choose familiarchaos over unfamiliar peace.
That's just the way the brainand the mind and the body is
wired.
We tend to repeat thesepatterns.
So until we become aware ofokay, this isn't serving me, and
(06:29):
learning new ones and beingpatient with ourselves, it
doesn't.
The awareness comes overnight,might come overnight, but the
change doesn't necessarily comeovernight, because we need time
and repetition to build newneural pathways and to build
safety in this change in ourbody.
So that's where a lot ofsomatic work comes in.
(06:50):
So the Godman Institute, theleading institute on
relationships based out ofWashington State, has done a lot
of research on this and theyfound four horsemen.
So these are the four thingsthat we should avoid when
communicating.
The first is criticism, so theproblem is no longer the problem
.
You are the four things that weshould avoid when communicating
.
The first is criticism.
So the problem is no longer theproblem.
You are the problem.
It's not that the dishes areunwashed, and it gives me the
(07:11):
sense of anxiety when I walk inafter work and see a mess in the
kitchen.
You are a messy person, you areselfish, you are dirty.
Now, naturally, when wecriticize someone, they're going
to get defensive, which is thesecond horseman of I am dirty, I
am selfish.
Have you seen yourself?
So the person who's gettingdefensive criticizes back and
(07:34):
it's a ping pong, or they gointo this martyrdom mode, victim
of like you don't understand,I've had such a hard day.
So instead of takingaccountability for that person's
experience, we go into victimmode.
Now, nothing really productivecomes out of this the criticism
and the defensiveness.
(07:54):
And then we have a third kind,which is stonewalling, and a lot
of men tend to experiencestonewalling, which is this
physiological flooding.
So I like to tell my clientsyou know, when you're talking to
someone and they're justlooking at you with a blank face
and you're like hello, are youlistening to me?
Like what is happening?
They want to speak.
They just can't, and later onthey'll be like you know I, just
the words were not coming out.
(08:16):
It's because it's the mind isprocessing this information at a
speed that it's not able toprocess.
So their heart rate goes up,their pupils might get dilated,
they start to sweat and thatagain becomes a block in that
communication.
And lastly is contempt, whichis criticism on steroids.
We have verbal contempt andnonverbal.
(08:38):
Verbal is sarcasm, belittling.
Who do you think you are?
Were you raised in a barn?
Did your parents not teach youbetter?
Or nonverbal, rollingittling.
Who do you think you are?
Were you raised in a barn?
Did your parents not teach youbetter?
Or nonverbal rolling our eyes,smirking.
And their research has foundthat when contempt is present,
it's a sign that respect ismissing.
But also there is a over 93%chance that this relationship
(09:00):
will end in divorce.
So it is a big indicator.
So these four, I would saygetting familiar with them and
their antidotes which is, again,I love the Gottman Institute
because they're like this is theproblem, this is a solution.
So they're giving us the toolsof okay, for criticism it's
gentle startup.
For defensiveness, it's takingaccountability, for stonewalling
(09:22):
, it's taking a time out.
And for contempt for the personengaging in it is doing trauma
work to understand the root ofthis contemptful behavior and
the person receiving it learningboundaries.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Is this a stair-step process or do people use one or
all of these in a relationalconflict?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
At some point we might have all engaged in all
four, but we tend to have onego-to horseman for ourselves,
Like our automated response for,let's say, for someone might be
criticism but the other personmight be stonewalling.
So becoming familiar with ourgo-to horseman and our partner's
go-to horseman and beingcurious with each other and
creating space for both of us tolean into the antidote.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, it's so true that we do like, even then, when
we don't want to, weautomatically go to how we
learned, what those relationalpatterns we learned.
And, wow, for me, like I'm arunner, so my first instinct is
I'm just gonna run away, I'mgonna avoid this conflict and
not even deal with it, whichthen, of course, made my partner
, my husband, feel reallythreatened, that I was
(10:23):
abandoning him, and so we had alot of conflict with our
relational styles in that, and Iremember one day in an argument
, I had this thought pop into myhead because my feelings got
really hurt and I felt supertriggered and I had this thought
in my inside myself, going backto that part where you need to
work on you too.
That said, what inside of youthinks what he's saying is true,
(10:43):
that it's hurting you so much,and so I'm curious if you have
any insights around that,because I found that our
arguments led me into this pathof I just learned to keep my
mouth shut, stay, to go away andsit with this feeling and see
how much of it was my ownhealing that needed to be done
versus what he was actuallysaying and doing, because in a
relationship, you absolutelyknow how to push each other's
(11:06):
buttons.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Oh yeah, I love that you shared that.
Thank you for that vulnerableshare.
Our partners are our bestmirrors, right?
They kind of mirror to us ourdeepest wounds, our triggers,
and so, once it gets activated,I love the idea of walking away
to reflect on it.
But there's two side notes Iwanna make.
(11:27):
First is we gotta let ourpartner know we're walking away
to reflect, because if ourpartner has a like, let's say,
an anxious attachment style andwe just walk out the door,
they're gonna feel moreabandoned, more wounded, and we
don't wanna trigger that.
So let's take a timeout.
I tell my clients, find a wordwhere it's like.
Once one of you says it, it'slike you're declaring it's a
(11:49):
timeout.
It could be apples or, if youdon't even want to use words,
use hand signals.
But once that hand signal isgiven, both of you will walk
away.
And when you're walking away,you want to let the partner know
when you're coming back to solet's take a time out, let's
reconvene tomorrow at lunch,let's talk about it later at
(12:10):
dinner, let's talk about it overthe weekend and then actually
coming back over the weekend andtalking about it.
That's how you build relationalsafety.
If I walk out and I say let'stalk about it at dinner and I
don't talk about it at dinner,I'm not going to trust you again
.
When you say let's take a timeout, I can come back to you at
dinner and say, hey, I'm stillnot ready to talk about it,
(12:30):
let's talk about it tomorrow atlunch.
So that part of it is so, so,so important.
I really want to emphasize thatpart, but also not getting
curious with why we gottriggered until we are regulated
.
So when we are dysregulatedwhether it's due to stress,
trauma, emotional overwhelm alot of the parts, different
(12:51):
parts of our brain reactdifferently to it.
So we have the prefrontalcortex, which is our rational
brain.
It's responsible for rationalthinking, for impulse control,
emotional regulation, problemsolving, communication.
During stress or conflict, theamygdala, the fear center, it
takes over and the prefrontalcortex goes offline.
So it becomes harder to thinkclearly, harder to listen, to
(13:14):
communicate.
So it's not that we don't wantto.
Our brain actually is notallowing us to do it.
So taking the time to firstregulate and we're seeing it
through research that our bodyneeds a minimum of 20 minutes to
regulate.
Now that I'm regulated, now thatI'm feeling grounded, getting
curious with huh, I wonder whatthat thing, what about what they
(13:35):
said, triggered me?
Which wounds did they activate?
So really taking the time toregulate before getting curious?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, that's really important.
When you're not regulated, thenthat curiosity is not going to
be there.
You're still in fight or flightand I think it was because of
all of my mindfulness, trainingand self-awareness that I was
very aware of what was going on,that I was able to step quickly
out of that, engage in anargument, mindset and not take
it, stopped taking it personallyand I found it to be so
(14:04):
transformative for me and whatyou said was so key for him.
I did start doing that.
I said I need to just go take abreather, I'm going to go for a
walk, I'll be back in an hourand I made sure that I really
honored that obligation,whatever I said, because it is
like that getting rid of thatcontemptful feeling of I'm going
to do what I want to do, I'mgoing to take care of me, screw
you, which that does.
(14:26):
And I see a lot of couples startgetting in that that hurt
pattern that definitely comesfrom fear and wounding and not
being aware of that.
And let's talk about fear,because I know this is something
that you're such an expert inand it's something that people
don't always necessarily knowthey're experiencing when it's
fear that's acting up.
(14:47):
And I discovered that when Istarted having things go really
awesome in my life, that I beganthis process of self-sabotaging
this awesome life I was having,and so I was like, why am I
doing this?
And I realized that inside ofmyself I didn't feel safe to
have joy and peace and actuallyhave everything that I wanted to
(15:09):
have, and I began to notice theanxiety that was kicking up
inside of my body, even thoughthere was nothing quote unquote
to be anxious about logically,but it was definitely.
My body had another story totell.
So I'm curious what you have tosay about fear and how it lives
in the body and how itmanifests when things are going
so great in your life that fearkicks up.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Thank you for sharing that, Because people often get
surprised when I tell them maybeyou're just scared of success
and they're like who would bescared of success?
But if success hasn't beenaround, if you don't know what
that looks like, it's unfamiliarand anything unfamiliar is
scary for the body.
(15:51):
So now that's part deeplyingrained in our brain of you
need to work really hard.
Now there's this new narrativeof you need to work really smart
, but the majority of thenarrative is you need to work
really hard.
So when something comes easy tous, we're like, like it's
unfamiliar, it goes against ourworldview, and we get in our own
way.
Exactly as you said, we stand inour own the way of our own
(16:14):
happiness, our own joy, our ownsuccess, expansive nature.
So everything comes back tosafety.
How safe does this feel?
The amount of joy that we havein our life, the amount of money
, the career choices we make,the relationships we entertain?
We do what feels safe, and soif a roller coaster experience
(16:38):
is safe for us in a relationship, if bread coming is what is
safe for us, if push, pull, hot,cold situationships where
you're like walking on eggshellstype of dynamic, feel safe to
us.
That's what we're going toentertain, and so our body holds
score to it.
For us there's a beautiful bookby that body holds score by his
(16:58):
name.
I can't pronounce it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Rivander Kolk, I think it is.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, and it's such a powerful book because again,
there's so much research on andthis is a new area, relatively
new area of psychology that thebody holds on to memories.
So let's say, hypothetically,you were in high school and you
got bullied by someone who wouldwear the perfume Dior Sauvage.
(17:25):
Fast forward 15 years.
You're at a party and someoneis wearing that same scent and
they come around you and yousuddenly feel this like feeling
in your body body can't tell thedifference that this is not the
same experience as before.
It just had that triggerreactivated.
So, similar to that, everythingis getting stored in our body.
We need to be able to releaseit with different modalities
(17:49):
somatic, experiencing differenthealing modalities, hypnosis
your options are endless and youdo what works best for you.
But we need to bring the bodyinto the healing formula, to
release that and to create a newbaseline for safety and a new
definition for safety.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And you mentioned a few ways of doing that the
somatic practices and whateverthose are, and for people who
are listening, who need anexample of what a somatic
practice is and how it works,why do we need to do a somatic
practice inside of our body?
How does that create safety?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, definitely.
So what we're doing is we aretraining the body, retraining
the body to remember that memory, but not have the activation
associated to it.
So right now I am like, let'ssay, emdr, using your eye,
blinking, using your eyes toreprocess.
What we're doing is we'rereprocessing that memory.
(18:45):
So initially I think of thattime that I got bullied, let's
say in grade seven, and I get 10out of 10 strong feeling in my
body Through different practices, let's say through EMDR, I
start to take away thatactivation slowly, slowly.
So the memory is still there,but when I think about it my
body is not responding the sameway.
(19:07):
We are moving towardsneutrality, with somatic
experiencing.
You have to actually do theexercise, but a lot of it uses
eyes, a lot of it the way youreye movement, a lot of it is
body movement.
So part of it could be shaking,like literally shaking these
energies off of your body.
(19:28):
It could be breath work throughdifferent breath work
techniques.
The techniques vary butultimately the goal is to
reprocess that memory and takeaway its activation.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
So it's taking away that trigger.
So you might, so you don't havethe same emotional reaction to
that perfume.
You can smell it and remember,oh, so-and-so wore that perfume
and it reminds me of her, ratherthan having that whole bodily
like I need to get out of thisparty kind of feeling.
Yeah, yeah, how do those twothings tie into relationships,
(20:02):
do you find, with fear andrelating to one another?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
When I work with clients, I tell them visualize a
triangle.
One part of the triangle is thepsychodynamic.
It's our childhood, it's ourchildhood patterns, it's our
family of origin patterns.
The second element of it is ourcognitive the way we think, our
belief systems, our worldview.
And then the third part of itis the somatic.
It's our nervous system and howthese three all mesh in
(20:29):
together.
Let's take a dating experience.
I grew up in a family where itwas very unstable.
Parents were always fighting,maybe even normalized cursing at
each other, hitting each other.
So when I'm looking at mychildhood, I'm noticing that
pattern.
My belief is it's okay to hit.
You know, couples hit eachother, couples might swear at
(20:52):
each other.
And the somatic is that whenI'm in an environment where
there is hitting and cursing, Ikind of normalize it, I kind of
accept it, I tolerate it, Imight even normalize, like by
normalizing.
Sometimes, you know, I'll havea client come into session and
be like it wasn't that bad andthen they'll tell me the most
horrific story, but for themthey've created this narrative.
(21:12):
It's not that bad and body isis trained to that.
So now when they go into ahealthy relationship, the first
feedback is this is so boring,this is so boring and that's it.
It's rewiring our body tobecome comfortable with boring
and normalizing.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Boring for someone who is accustomed to that roller
coaster yeah, it's sofascinating how chaos can become
your normal and then it doesn't.
It's like, without all thechaos to manage, then your life
does feel boring and just flat,and I've I myself have had that
experience in going through asobriety process and getting
(21:49):
sober.
Like the first four months Iwas like, oh my gosh, everything
is so boring.
And now, of course, I'm likelife is way more fun.
That was artificial, that wasartificial fun.
That wasn't even really fun tobegin with.
So I'm curious about in howpeople attract and I love this
triangle you just said, becauseI'm like if people wore these
triangles on their shirts, rightwhere, when you're in the
(22:10):
dating world, you're like,here's what you're, here's the
baggage that I'm coming with,which I'm like there should be a
dating app I've said calledbaggage claim, where everyone's
just really honest about whatthey're, what they're picking up
.
But if you, if you could seeand know these dynamics that not
only the other person iscarrying but you yourself are
carrying, I'm curious how theprocess works in this pattern.
(22:30):
Repeat, it's very unconsciousof how you choose or select or
are attracted to people whoalmost feel this need that you
have and that they have to meetthis need of chaos in your
relationship.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, first of all, I love baggage claim.
That is so smart.
Whoever's listening to this oryou should start it.
You should definitely do it.
It's so, so smart.
I love it and you're right, weall come into relationship with
baggage.
No one is perfect.
Ultimately, we need to choosesomeone whose strengths we
admire and whose weaknesses wecan tolerate, and their
(23:07):
weaknesses is not part of ournon-negotiable.
So let's say, my partnerdoesn't like to meditate, is it
my non-negotiable?
Hypothetically no, and that'sokay and that's you know.
There's differences or whateverit might be.
Everyone has sets of weaknessesand sets of strengths.
So that I really think isimportant to kind of take away
(23:28):
from this fairytale Disneyperfect myth.
There is no perfect partner.
I personally don't believe thatthere's the one for us.
It's just the one that is mostrelatable to us in this version
of us, at this level ofconsciousness that we are, and
that's why, if we don't growtogether, we grow apart.
But you know, I love how yousaid attract first and then you
(23:49):
said choose, because I tellgirls all the time listen, like
you're going to attract a widerange of different people.
Who are you going to choose?
Who are you going to entertainand get curious with that.
When you meet someone andthey're after the first day,
you're like, oh my God, I feellike I've known them forever.
Is that the truth or is that atrauma bond?
It's like ooh, like the discernbetween the experiences and
(24:16):
allow yourself time.
You, talking to that person24-7 on the phone isn't going to
expedite the process ofunderstanding each other better.
You want to see this person indifferent circumstances.
How do they respond when lifeis not going their way?
Because the first six months ofthe relationship, the hormones
are doing the job for you.
So who are they in differentplaces and circumstances?
(24:39):
Are the three R's present?
Respect, reliability,responsiveness.
Does this person respect me,respect themselves, respect our
differences?
Can I rely on them?
Can I rely that when they leavethat door they're going to come
back, that when they saythey're going to call, they're
going to call?
And are they responsive to myfeelings, my needs?
(24:59):
And you know, when I bringsomething to the table, is there
space for it to be seen?
So the three R's really are thefoundation.
It's like for baking a cake,they are the batter.
So giving ourselves time to askthese questions, and then that's
where discrepancy might happen.
Of huh, I feel like I'mattracted to him, but I don't
(25:20):
feel like there is that I canrely on him.
Okay, let's get curious.
So is this a pattern from yourchildhood?
Is perhaps was a parent or acaregiver not reliable and
that's just the way it was, andyou kind of had to suck it up
and normalize that?
So when we give ourself time toreflect on these questions and
(25:40):
bring our hormones out of theformula we can understand.
Is it a pattern, repeating ornot I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Those three R's.
Those are very important threeR's any young couples that I
know.
So my niece was getting marriedand I said, well, before you
marry him, you guys need to goto Ikea and buy something big
and build it together and seehow it goes, Because it tells
you a lot about a person.
When you're doing somethingdifficult, you're working
together, you have to cooperateLike there's a lot that goes
(26:10):
into that.
It's kind of a joke that I havewith people because it's always
really difficult, but I lovehow you said what are your
non-negotiables?
Is this something that you feellike you coach people on in
relationships and setting up?
What are your non-negotiablesand do you consider your
non-negotiables to be yourboundaries in a relationship?
Because I would say boundariesare not for other people,
they're for you.
That I'm the one who doesn't goagainst this boundary that this
(26:36):
is something important to me.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, understanding our non-negotiables can be
tricky when we haven't becomefully familiar with a more
healed version of ourself, right?
So first, that's where theinner work comes on.
Who am I?
Who am I outside of thisconditioning?
Who am I outside of the labelsthat my parents have put on me,
that society has put on me?
(26:58):
So if you don't know yournon-negotiables right away, it's
okay and just be patient withyourself.
But a technique that I love isthe six intimacy tanks.
And when we think of intimacywe think of sex or physical.
And I'm here to expand thatdefinition for you and say let's
look at intimacy through sixdifferent lenses physical and
(27:19):
sexual, but also emotional,intellectual, spiritual and
experiential.
So physical is non-sexual touchwe're holding hands, hugging,
kissing.
Sexual is sexual.
In monogamous relationshipsit's a non-negotiable.
In non-monogamous it might notbe a non-negotiable Em
non-monogamous it might not be anon-negotiable.
Emotional is do I feel safeexpressing my emotions to this
(27:39):
person, my feelings?
Intellectual is does thisperson intellectually stimulate
me?
Spiritual is can we talk aboutspirituality and rituals around
spirituality and religion, butalso our values and our belief
systems?
And lastly, experiential istraveling, going to restaurants,
doing similar hobbies.
So if I were to put all thesesix tanks?
(28:01):
Yes, ideal for our partner tomeet all six.
But, as Dr Esther Perel says, weare like living in a period of
time where there's never beenthis much expectation on our
partners as ever before.
Now we expect you to beeverything our best friend, our
lover, our partner, this or that.
And it's a lot of work and youknow we can't control external
(28:22):
circumstances.
Sometimes challenges come up inlife and we just don't have the
capacity.
I'm coming home.
I've seen a lot of clients.
I'm like, oh, I don't want tobe there for my partner.
I'm out of like a 10 out of 100.
And so we want to ask ourselveswhich one out of the six, which
ones are my non-negotiable?
Is it absolutely a deal breakerthat my partner intellectually
(28:46):
simulate me?
Or can I get that need met atwork for my colleagues or my
best friends?
And we want to put as manypeople as we can into these
tanks because one day if ourpartner comes home like similar
to what I shared and doesn'thave the capacity and they are
our go-to person for emotionalthen I can call my brother or my
(29:06):
mom and lean into them for thatmeet.
So I love this practice ofwriting the six down and then
asking yourself which ones isabsolutely a non-negotiable that
your partner meets, and thenwho else can meet that, and
opening that conversation andyou might have different
responses than your partner.
Your partner might say you know,for me it's super important
(29:29):
that we have experientialintimacy and for me I might say
it's super important we haveemotional intimacy.
How can we meet halfway, howcan compromise, how can we meet
each other's needs?
But we're not going to knowuntil we talk about it.
And we really need to normalizetalking about our needs, go on
(29:57):
dates or when we travel, we goon a picnic.
I feel so seen, I need us toschedule more of this and I
would love for us to schedulemore of this and expressing it,
because your mind, your partner,is not a mind reader, despite
what Disney has sold to us.
They are not our mind readers.
So we need, we are responsiblefor getting our needs met.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Oh, I love that so much.
And even and I love the idea ofhaving different people in each
of those containers, becauseeven my husband will I'll be
trying to have a conversationwith him and he will I mean,
with his relational skills thatwe have now he'll say, sweetie,
I want to hear this and be therefor you in this.
But I'm sensing that you mighthave a better conversation if
you called your girlfriend.
(30:32):
If you called your girlfriendand I was like, oh, you know
what?
You're right, I am going to gocall a girlfriend about this,
because she's going to be muchmore supportive in this
situation than you are.
And I met this really old couplethey were having we were at a
restaurant and they were havingtheir 60th wedding anniversary
and they had all of theirwrinkles all frozen in the right
places.
They just looked so happy.
And so I went over andcongratulated them and I said do
(30:53):
you have any marital advice?
And the woman said oh, it'seasy.
She said you have your thing,he has his thing, and then you
have your together thing.
And I really liked that becauseit really, you know, it takes
the pressure off of your, likeyou said, off of your mate, your
partner, your spouse, to beeverything for you, because,
conversely, if you're expectingthat of them, then they have the
(31:13):
right to expect that of youback, and that's a lot of
pressure to put on someone.
And so I'm curious if you haveany advice for growing together,
because, as you are in arelationship for a long time,
like I told my husband, we'regoing into our 14th year of
marriage and I said, you know,we're about to start our third
iteration of each other together, and so it's, you know, like
(31:34):
every seven years you change,and that's definitely true of us
.
And so how do you re-evaluateand renegotiate your
relationship with your partner?
Do you do that with yourpartner?
How, what would?
What advice do you have aroundgrowing together instead of
growing apart?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, congratulations on this anniversary that's
coming up for you and I love theadvice that she gave me.
And then you and then us.
Curiosity, I think, is a verypowerful trait and skill I would
say actually skill that if westrengthen, can really enhance
the quality of our relationship.
And curiosity that ourpartner's not the same person
(32:12):
they were yesterday, especiallyin long term relationships.
We just assume I just know you,but we're not.
I'm not the same person theywere yesterday, especially in
long-term relationships.
We just assume I just know you,but we're not.
I'm not the same person I waslast week.
So if my partner makes thatassumption, they're not really
going to want to get to knowthis week's version's internal
state.
So, continuing to be curiouswith one another, tell me more
about that.
What's on your mind?
The Godman Institute suggests aState of the Union meeting which
(32:35):
is in essence like a weeklymeeting where we sit down and
say what went well for us, whatdidn't go well and how we can
make it better.
So really creating carvingintentional time out of our
calendar to do that.
But one other practice I'm allabout practical tips is creating
this list, so things that arefor me that I don't want to
(32:57):
share with you.
They're for me, Things that arefor you that you don't want to
share with me, Things that arefor me, that I want to share
with you but they're notnecessarily your thing, Things
that are for you, that you wantto share with me but are not
necessarily my thing, and thingsthat we like to do together.
I have couples sit down andwrite this list and frequent
this list, let's say every sixmonths, every year, and see if
(33:20):
anything has changed.
So let's say, for me and myrelationship, my partner loves
golf.
I'm not gonna do it, so that'shis thing.
That stays for him.
I love to bake he doesn't liketo do that, things.
That stays with me.
But for example, I love togarden and that's something I'd
like to experience with him.
So I bring out that bid forconnection.
(33:40):
It would really mean a lot tome if we could do this,
sometimes together and he'llbring his request.
And then there's we both loveto travel.
So just same way that we wouldsay to ourselves, saying it to
our partners and just beingcurious with one another and
each other's internal state.
I say curiosity savesrelationships.
(34:01):
Assumptions ruin them.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
What do you do in the case of?
You are the partner you cameinto a relationship and let's
say you weren't, you were stillin your patterning and you
weren't aware of theconditioning that you were in.
And then you start doing selfgrowth and personal growth and
you become more emotionallyintelligent than your partner
and they're not doing the work.
So what do you do or recommendfor people to do then, when it
(34:23):
kind of starts to feel one sided?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Honestly, it's different for everyone.
I have seen couples where wherethe energetic frequency of that
up-leveling was sacred andstrong enough to pull the other
partner into it, and it wasn'tpulled in through dictating, it
(34:48):
was pulled in through embodiment, right.
So they first start to do thework and they're not dictating
to the other person, they're notbeing their teacher, they're
not trying to change the otherperson, they're not.
They're not being their teacher, they're not trying to change
the other person.
They're so wholly invested inthemselves that the partner
after a while goes like you'vechanged what did you do, like
you seem calmer, we're notfinding as much what is
happening, and they start toshow a little bit of interest in
(35:09):
that person's world.
That can happen.
I've also seen couples who maybehave more of a logical element
to their dynamic coming andsaying listen, I'm doing this,
it's important for me that youcome on to this as well, because
of X, y, z.
And they'll come to couplestherapy and they'll work on it
together.
Couples coaching, and they'llwork on it together.
And then I've also seen couplesthat, hey, I've changed and I'm
(35:35):
not here to change you, but Ialso can't accept this version
of you and the other person'slike I don't want to change, and
then it's all about consciouslydecoupling.
So it's like, as I'm growing,can I still accept this person
as they are?
Sometimes the answer is yes,because they lean into the other
intimacy tanks from otherpeople that they're getting in
their community and theirpartner's still filling their
(35:57):
non-negotiables, and sometimesit's no.
So it really there's no onesize fits all, but I would
really say no one wants to datea teacher, like no one wants to
be told what to do, and as muchas our intentions are pure of
like, I just learned somethingnew.
I want you to know it.
Like you know, we want to sharewhen we're invited to share,
and the best way to do that isembodiment, practicing,
(36:21):
practicing.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
That is so true.
I found that to be definitelythe case in my relationship that
as I changed my relationshipwith myself, it changed how I'm
relating to the world, and thatincludes my relationship with my
spouse, and he definitelystarted to level up
automatically.
And I joked and he's like.
He said I'm just cheating offof your homework.
Yeah, clearly, I said, butthat's okay, it was really cute.
(36:45):
Well, tanaz, I love thisconversation.
It's so valuable becauserelationships are just such a
treasure and, like you said inthe beginning, they are a mirror
to us and we're a mirror to oneanother in our relationships.
And the work that you're doingis so beautiful.
I love the practicality of itand the science behind it and
just all of the things thatyou're offering.
Where can people find you andhow can they work with you, and
(37:05):
do you have anything interestingcoming up that people might be
interested in?
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Thank you for creating the space and for
asking all these lovelyquestions.
It's been an honor to share.
I am, my website is Minutes onGrowth, so Minutes, and then O-N
Growth.
On my website there is a freeebook on nervous system
regulation.
So 11 tools that you canpractice, and I want everyone to
know that there again, no onesize fits all.
(37:31):
You wanna personalize andcustomize your life based on
what you want and what works andresonates with you.
Try the tools out, see whichone you feel comfortable with
that has a positive response foryou, and then practice that
tool when you're triggered orproactively, and that really
will enhance the quality of yourrelationship with yourself and
(37:52):
with others, platonic andromantic.
So I work one-on-one withclients or with couples and,
depending on when this episodeis coming out, I am hosting a
women's retreat in Tuscany thissummer, August 18th to the 23rd.
It's a nervous system reset.
It's called self-worth,self-care and sisterhood In my
(38:16):
opinion, the three pillars of afeeling seen, heard and
understood and appreciated.
So if your nervous system wouldlike to heal in community,
that's an option.
If you'd like to do itone-on-one, that's an option.
I have a few masterclasses onmy website that couples can
purchase and watch over and overand over again, because
repetition is key.
(38:37):
I still watch them over andover and over again and yeah,
there's a lot of tools on thereto check Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
This was just such a great conversation and so many
valuable tips and tools and Iappreciate your time and your
wisdom and this retreat soundsamazing.
Thank you, troy, I reallyappreciate it.
Thank you, thank you forlistening to we Woke Up Like
this.
Your likes, comments, sharesand subscribes help this content
reach new listeners, and I soappreciate you and remember,
(39:03):
luminous One, that your radiantand magnetic presence changes
the world.
Tanaz is a certified relationship coach, registered
psychotherapist, podcast hostand author.
She helps individuals breakfree from their unhealthy
patterns, regulate their nervoussystem and build secure,
fulfilling relationships.
Her work blends somatic healing, inner child work and
subconscious reprogramming tohelp clients feel grounded, safe
(00:22):
and emotionally empowered.
And on this episode we divedeep into what it means to have
healthy relationships withothers and yourself.
Enjoy the show, tanaz.
Thank you so much for joiningme on.
We Woke Up Like this and I'mreally excited to dive into
(00:45):
these conversations around fearand intimacy.
But before we do that, thispodcast is all about waking up,
and waking up to a new way ofbeing, a new way of being in
your own life.
So I'm curious what woke you upto become so passionate about
wanting to have conversationsabout fear and intimacy
passionate about wanting to haveconversations about fear and
(01:06):
intimacy.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Well, thank you, joy, for having me on.
And it was exactly that it'swaking up and realizing I didn't
want to have the life that Iwas conditioned to have.
So I was conditioned to be alawyer.
I come from a Persianbackground, so it's either a
lawyer, a doctor or an engineer,and I was really good at public
speaking and teaching.
So my parents just naturallythought law was the way for me
to go, got my master's indispute resolution law and
realized I don't really likebeing on the reactive side of
(01:33):
relationships.
I, you know, did some trainingon family mediation and it just
didn't resonate of like how didwe get from I love you so much
to who gets the plate andquestions and fights and
arguments.
That just left a big questionmark in my heart.
And so I woke up.
Literally I was like I'm notgoing to do this, but I didn't
(01:53):
know what to do.
I had been studying differentspiritual modalities, thanks to
my mom, from the age of 18.
So by that time I was around 24, 25.
So by that time I was around 24, 25.
And I knew that the answerswould come if I would sit in the
discomfort of not knowing.
And so I did.
And I had a book club at thetime and one of the girls said
(02:14):
have you ever heard of coaching?
And I was like I have no ideawhat that is, but let me look
into it.
And so I looked into it and itwas.
It was at the same time thatsomeone else said have you ever
heard about a podcast?
I'm like I have no idea whatthat is.
This is like 2017.
(02:36):
And so I really believe that theuniverse speaks to us through
other people, and so I nevertake anyone's suggestion lightly
.
I honor their words.
And so I looked into coaching.
I became trained as arelationship coach and a couple
of years later I went back toschool for my third postgraduate
degree in counselingpsychotherapy just having more
tools to help clients cultivatehealthier relationships with
(02:59):
themselves and others.
To kind of be on the proactiveside, because, based on the work
that I've done, I've realizedthat the status of the health of
our relationship is 50% ourinner work, but also 50%
relational skills that we justweren't taught and most of us
didn't have it modeled to us inour family of origin, and when
we know better, we can do better.
So really being on theproactive side of cultivating
(03:22):
healthier relationships.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Wow, I love that.
You said a lot of things that Iwas like, oh wow, that's really
powerful.
And one of them was sitting inthe discomfort and being okay
with sitting in that discomfortand I hear you being open and
curious and looking like whenwe're open and curious, we start
to see those messages that comein and I just really just want
to say I admire you for havingthe courage to follow that
(03:49):
nudging inside of you.
That said, I want to be on theproactive ends of things and not
helping people solve theproblem after it's done, or that
you know, like, like you said,who gets the plates, rather than
how can we heal and fix thisrelationship?
What would you say are waysthat people don't know, because
you said you're what you said isright 50% your own inner growth
and your own inner work, butthen also communication skills.
(04:11):
So what would you say are themaster communication skills that
couples or people looking for arelationship can master in
themselves and with each other?
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Oh, there's so many, and we'll dive into it because I
love to be on the practical,proactive side.
But before I do I also want tosay that sitting in the
discomfort of not knowing isn'teasy.
So I like sometimes I don'twant to glamorize it, because
you're going against generationsof conditioning.
You're going against your ownlike, your own belief system and
(04:45):
your own worldview.
Our brain is created forsurvival and part of that is
like this knowing, thiscertainty.
So if it feels uncomfortable, Iwant to honor that and say that
you know to not expectsomething different.
I mean, sometimes it comes withease, but most of the times it
is that it's very uncomfortableand challenging.
(05:08):
But and that's where communitycomes in If we have a strong
support system, people who cansee us and hear us and
understand us, it really makesthe world of a difference.
So putting yourself out thereand finding that community can
be really helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
but that said so, I just wanted to honor people's
journey and process and thankyou because you're right, it is
not easy.
It's not easy, it's very scaryand it does take a lot of
courage.
And you're exactly right,finding those places to be held
and witnessed and supported, asyou're in this process, is so
important.
So, yeah, thank you foracknowledging that.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Now we tend to do what our parents did.
So if I was raised in a familywhere you know, I didn't see
healthy conflict between myparents, let's say one of them
would storm out of the room, theother one would shout.
That's what I know, that's howI know to communicate.
So I'm going to repeat thosepatterns, those maladaptive
(06:07):
patterns, even though I mightknow that it's wrong, but
because that is what iscomfortable to my nervous system
, that is what is known.
It's like we choose familiarchaos over unfamiliar peace.
That's just the way the brainand the mind and the body is
wired.
We tend to repeat thesepatterns.
So until we become aware ofokay, this isn't serving me, and
(06:29):
learning new ones and beingpatient with ourselves, it
doesn't.
The awareness comes overnight,might come overnight, but the
change doesn't necessarily comeovernight, because we need time
and repetition to build newneural pathways and to build
safety in this change in ourbody.
So that's where a lot ofsomatic work comes in.
(06:50):
So the Godman Institute, theleading institute on
relationships based out ofWashington State, has done a lot
of research on this and theyfound four horsemen.
So these are the four thingsthat we should avoid when
communicating.
The first is criticism, so theproblem is no longer the problem
.
You are the four things that weshould avoid when communicating
.
The first is criticism.
So the problem is no longer theproblem.
You are the problem.
It's not that the dishes areunwashed, and it gives me the
(07:11):
sense of anxiety when I walk inafter work and see a mess in the
kitchen.
You are a messy person, you areselfish, you are dirty.
Now, naturally, when wecriticize someone, they're going
to get defensive, which is thesecond horseman of I am dirty, I
am selfish.
Have you seen yourself?
So the person who's gettingdefensive criticizes back and
(07:34):
it's a ping pong, or they gointo this martyrdom mode, victim
of like you don't understand,I've had such a hard day.
So instead of takingaccountability for that person's
experience, we go into victimmode.
Now, nothing really productivecomes out of this the criticism
and the defensiveness.
(07:54):
And then we have a third kind,which is stonewalling, and a lot
of men tend to experiencestonewalling, which is this
physiological flooding.
So I like to tell my clientsyou know, when you're talking to
someone and they're justlooking at you with a blank face
and you're like hello, are youlistening to me?
Like what is happening?
They want to speak.
They just can't, and later onthey'll be like you know I, just
the words were not coming out.
(08:16):
It's because it's the mind isprocessing this information at a
speed that it's not able toprocess.
So their heart rate goes up,their pupils might get dilated,
they start to sweat and thatagain becomes a block in that
communication.
And lastly is contempt, whichis criticism on steroids.
We have verbal contempt andnonverbal.
(08:38):
Verbal is sarcasm, belittling.
Who do you think you are?
Were you raised in a barn?
Did your parents not teach youbetter?
Or nonverbal, rollingittling.
Who do you think you are?
Were you raised in a barn?
Did your parents not teach youbetter?
Or nonverbal rolling our eyes,smirking.
And their research has foundthat when contempt is present,
it's a sign that respect ismissing.
But also there is a over 93%chance that this relationship
(09:00):
will end in divorce.
So it is a big indicator.
So these four, I would saygetting familiar with them and
their antidotes which is, again,I love the Gottman Institute
because they're like this is theproblem, this is a solution.
So they're giving us the toolsof okay, for criticism it's
gentle startup.
For defensiveness, it's takingaccountability, for stonewalling
(09:22):
, it's taking a time out.
And for contempt for the personengaging in it is doing trauma
work to understand the root ofthis contemptful behavior and
the person receiving it learningboundaries.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Is this a stair-step process or do people use one or
all of these in a relationalconflict?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
At some point we might have all engaged in all
four, but we tend to have onego-to horseman for ourselves,
Like our automated response for,let's say, for someone might be
criticism but the other personmight be stonewalling.
So becoming familiar with ourgo-to horseman and our partner's
go-to horseman and beingcurious with each other and
creating space for both of us tolean into the antidote.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Yeah, it's so true that we do like, even then, when
we don't want to, weautomatically go to how we
learned, what those relationalpatterns we learned.
And, wow, for me, like I'm arunner, so my first instinct is
I'm just gonna run away, I'mgonna avoid this conflict and
not even deal with it, whichthen, of course, made my partner
, my husband, feel reallythreatened, that I was
(10:23):
abandoning him, and so we had alot of conflict with our
relational styles in that, and Iremember one day in an argument
, I had this thought pop into myhead because my feelings got
really hurt and I felt supertriggered and I had this thought
in my inside myself, going backto that part where you need to
work on you too.
That said, what inside of youthinks what he's saying is true,
(10:43):
that it's hurting you so much,and so I'm curious if you have
any insights around that,because I found that our
arguments led me into this pathof I just learned to keep my
mouth shut, stay, to go away andsit with this feeling and see
how much of it was my ownhealing that needed to be done
versus what he was actuallysaying and doing, because in a
relationship, you absolutelyknow how to push each other's
(11:06):
buttons.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Oh yeah, I love that you shared that.
Thank you for that vulnerableshare.
Our partners are our bestmirrors, right?
They kind of mirror to us ourdeepest wounds, our triggers,
and so, once it gets activated,I love the idea of walking away
to reflect on it.
But there's two side notes Iwanna make.
(11:27):
First is we gotta let ourpartner know we're walking away
to reflect, because if ourpartner has a like, let's say,
an anxious attachment style andwe just walk out the door,
they're gonna feel moreabandoned, more wounded, and we
don't wanna trigger that.
So let's take a timeout.
I tell my clients, find a wordwhere it's like.
Once one of you says it, it'slike you're declaring it's a
(11:49):
timeout.
It could be apples or, if youdon't even want to use words,
use hand signals.
But once that hand signal isgiven, both of you will walk
away.
And when you're walking away,you want to let the partner know
when you're coming back to solet's take a time out, let's
reconvene tomorrow at lunch,let's talk about it later at
(12:10):
dinner, let's talk about it overthe weekend and then actually
coming back over the weekend andtalking about it.
That's how you build relationalsafety.
If I walk out and I say let'stalk about it at dinner and I
don't talk about it at dinner,I'm not going to trust you again
.
When you say let's take a timeout, I can come back to you at
dinner and say, hey, I'm stillnot ready to talk about it,
(12:30):
let's talk about it tomorrow atlunch.
So that part of it is so, so,so important.
I really want to emphasize thatpart, but also not getting
curious with why we gottriggered until we are regulated
.
So when we are dysregulatedwhether it's due to stress,
trauma, emotional overwhelm alot of the parts, different
(12:51):
parts of our brain reactdifferently to it.
So we have the prefrontalcortex, which is our rational
brain.
It's responsible for rationalthinking, for impulse control,
emotional regulation, problemsolving, communication.
During stress or conflict, theamygdala, the fear center, it
takes over and the prefrontalcortex goes offline.
So it becomes harder to thinkclearly, harder to listen, to
(13:14):
communicate.
So it's not that we don't wantto.
Our brain actually is notallowing us to do it.
So taking the time to firstregulate and we're seeing it
through research that our bodyneeds a minimum of 20 minutes to
regulate.
Now that I'm regulated, now thatI'm feeling grounded, getting
curious with huh, I wonder whatthat thing, what about what they
(13:35):
said, triggered me?
Which wounds did they activate?
So really taking the time toregulate before getting curious?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Yeah, that's really important.
When you're not regulated, thenthat curiosity is not going to
be there.
You're still in fight or flightand I think it was because of
all of my mindfulness, trainingand self-awareness that I was
very aware of what was going on,that I was able to step quickly
out of that, engage in anargument, mindset and not take
it, stopped taking it personallyand I found it to be so
(14:04):
transformative for me and whatyou said was so key for him.
I did start doing that.
I said I need to just go take abreather, I'm going to go for a
walk, I'll be back in an hourand I made sure that I really
honored that obligation,whatever I said, because it is
like that getting rid of thatcontemptful feeling of I'm going
to do what I want to do, I'mgoing to take care of me, screw
you, which that does.
(14:26):
And I see a lot of couples startgetting in that that hurt
pattern that definitely comesfrom fear and wounding and not
being aware of that.
And let's talk about fear,because I know this is something
that you're such an expert inand it's something that people
don't always necessarily knowthey're experiencing when it's
fear that's acting up.
(14:47):
And I discovered that when Istarted having things go really
awesome in my life, that I beganthis process of self-sabotaging
this awesome life I was having,and so I was like, why am I
doing this?
And I realized that inside ofmyself I didn't feel safe to
have joy and peace and actuallyhave everything that I wanted to
(15:09):
have, and I began to notice theanxiety that was kicking up
inside of my body, even thoughthere was nothing quote unquote
to be anxious about logically,but it was definitely.
My body had another story totell.
So I'm curious what you have tosay about fear and how it lives
in the body and how itmanifests when things are going
so great in your life that fearkicks up.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Thank you for sharing that, Because people often get
surprised when I tell them maybeyou're just scared of success
and they're like who would bescared of success?
But if success hasn't beenaround, if you don't know what
that looks like, it's unfamiliarand anything unfamiliar is
scary for the body.
(15:51):
So now that's part deeplyingrained in our brain of you
need to work really hard.
Now there's this new narrativeof you need to work really smart
, but the majority of thenarrative is you need to work
really hard.
So when something comes easy tous, we're like, like it's
unfamiliar, it goes against ourworldview, and we get in our own
way.
Exactly as you said, we stand inour own the way of our own
(16:14):
happiness, our own joy, our ownsuccess, expansive nature.
So everything comes back tosafety.
How safe does this feel?
The amount of joy that we havein our life, the amount of money
, the career choices we make,the relationships we entertain?
We do what feels safe, and soif a roller coaster experience
(16:38):
is safe for us in a relationship, if bread coming is what is
safe for us, if push, pull, hot,cold situationships where
you're like walking on eggshellstype of dynamic, feel safe to
us.
That's what we're going toentertain, and so our body holds
score to it.
For us there's a beautiful bookby that body holds score by his
(16:58):
name.
I can't pronounce it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Rivander Kolk, I think it is.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yes, and it's such a powerful book because again,
there's so much research on andthis is a new area, relatively
new area of psychology that thebody holds on to memories.
So let's say, hypothetically,you were in high school and you
got bullied by someone who wouldwear the perfume Dior Sauvage.
(17:25):
Fast forward 15 years.
You're at a party and someoneis wearing that same scent and
they come around you and yousuddenly feel this like feeling
in your body body can't tell thedifference that this is not the
same experience as before.
It just had that triggerreactivated.
So, similar to that, everythingis getting stored in our body.
We need to be able to releaseit with different modalities
(17:49):
somatic, experiencing differenthealing modalities, hypnosis
your options are endless and youdo what works best for you.
But we need to bring the bodyinto the healing formula, to
release that and to create a newbaseline for safety and a new
definition for safety.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And you mentioned a few ways of doing that the
somatic practices and whateverthose are, and for people who
are listening, who need anexample of what a somatic
practice is and how it works,why do we need to do a somatic
practice inside of our body?
How does that create safety?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, definitely.
So what we're doing is we aretraining the body, retraining
the body to remember that memory, but not have the activation
associated to it.
So right now I am like, let'ssay, emdr, using your eye,
blinking, using your eyes toreprocess.
What we're doing is we'rereprocessing that memory.
(18:45):
So initially I think of thattime that I got bullied, let's
say in grade seven, and I get 10out of 10 strong feeling in my
body Through different practices, let's say through EMDR, I
start to take away thatactivation slowly, slowly.
So the memory is still there,but when I think about it my
body is not responding the sameway.
(19:07):
We are moving towardsneutrality, with somatic
experiencing.
You have to actually do theexercise, but a lot of it uses
eyes, a lot of it the way youreye movement, a lot of it is
body movement.
So part of it could be shaking,like literally shaking these
energies off of your body.
(19:28):
It could be breath work throughdifferent breath work
techniques.
The techniques vary butultimately the goal is to
reprocess that memory and takeaway its activation.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
So it's taking away that trigger.
So you might, so you don't havethe same emotional reaction to
that perfume.
You can smell it and remember,oh, so-and-so wore that perfume
and it reminds me of her, ratherthan having that whole bodily
like I need to get out of thisparty kind of feeling.
Yeah, yeah, how do those twothings tie into relationships,
(20:02):
do you find, with fear andrelating to one another?
Speaker 2 (20:07):
When I work with clients, I tell them visualize a
triangle.
One part of the triangle is thepsychodynamic.
It's our childhood, it's ourchildhood patterns, it's our
family of origin patterns.
The second element of it is ourcognitive the way we think, our
belief systems, our worldview.
And then the third part of itis the somatic.
It's our nervous system and howthese three all mesh in
(20:29):
together.
Let's take a dating experience.
I grew up in a family where itwas very unstable.
Parents were always fighting,maybe even normalized cursing at
each other, hitting each other.
So when I'm looking at mychildhood, I'm noticing that
pattern.
My belief is it's okay to hit.
You know, couples hit eachother, couples might swear at
(20:52):
each other.
And the somatic is that whenI'm in an environment where
there is hitting and cursing, Ikind of normalize it, I kind of
accept it, I tolerate it, Imight even normalize, like by
normalizing.
Sometimes, you know, I'll havea client come into session and
be like it wasn't that bad andthen they'll tell me the most
horrific story, but for themthey've created this narrative.
(21:12):
It's not that bad and body isis trained to that.
So now when they go into ahealthy relationship, the first
feedback is this is so boring,this is so boring and that's it.
It's rewiring our body tobecome comfortable with boring
and normalizing.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Boring for someone who is accustomed to that roller
coaster yeah, it's sofascinating how chaos can become
your normal and then it doesn't.
It's like, without all thechaos to manage, then your life
does feel boring and just flat,and I've I myself have had that
experience in going through asobriety process and getting
(21:49):
sober.
Like the first four months Iwas like, oh my gosh, everything
is so boring.
And now, of course, I'm likelife is way more fun.
That was artificial, that wasartificial fun.
That wasn't even really fun tobegin with.
So I'm curious about in howpeople attract and I love this
triangle you just said, becauseI'm like if people wore these
triangles on their shirts, rightwhere, when you're in the
(22:10):
dating world, you're like,here's what you're, here's the
baggage that I'm coming with,which I'm like there should be a
dating app I've said calledbaggage claim, where everyone's
just really honest about whatthey're, what they're picking up
.
But if you, if you could seeand know these dynamics that not
only the other person iscarrying but you yourself are
carrying, I'm curious how theprocess works in this pattern.
(22:30):
Repeat, it's very unconsciousof how you choose or select or
are attracted to people whoalmost feel this need that you
have and that they have to meetthis need of chaos in your
relationship.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, first of all, I love baggage claim.
That is so smart.
Whoever's listening to this oryou should start it.
You should definitely do it.
It's so, so smart.
I love it and you're right, weall come into relationship with
baggage.
No one is perfect.
Ultimately, we need to choosesomeone whose strengths we
admire and whose weaknesses wecan tolerate, and their
(23:07):
weaknesses is not part of ournon-negotiable.
So let's say, my partnerdoesn't like to meditate, is it
my non-negotiable?
Hypothetically no, and that'sokay and that's you know.
There's differences or whateverit might be.
Everyone has sets of weaknessesand sets of strengths.
So that I really think isimportant to kind of take away
(23:28):
from this fairytale Disneyperfect myth.
There is no perfect partner.
I personally don't believe thatthere's the one for us.
It's just the one that is mostrelatable to us in this version
of us, at this level ofconsciousness that we are, and
that's why, if we don't growtogether, we grow apart.
But you know, I love how yousaid attract first and then you
(23:49):
said choose, because I tellgirls all the time listen, like
you're going to attract a widerange of different people.
Who are you going to choose?
Who are you going to entertainand get curious with that.
When you meet someone andthey're after the first day,
you're like, oh my God, I feellike I've known them forever.
Is that the truth or is that atrauma bond?
It's like ooh, like the discernbetween the experiences and
(24:16):
allow yourself time.
You, talking to that person24-7 on the phone isn't going to
expedite the process ofunderstanding each other better.
You want to see this person indifferent circumstances.
How do they respond when lifeis not going their way?
Because the first six months ofthe relationship, the hormones
are doing the job for you.
So who are they in differentplaces and circumstances?
(24:39):
Are the three R's present?
Respect, reliability,responsiveness.
Does this person respect me,respect themselves, respect our
differences?
Can I rely on them?
Can I rely that when they leavethat door they're going to come
back, that when they saythey're going to call, they're
going to call?
And are they responsive to myfeelings, my needs?
(24:59):
And you know, when I bringsomething to the table, is there
space for it to be seen?
So the three R's really are thefoundation.
It's like for baking a cake,they are the batter.
So giving ourselves time to askthese questions, and then that's
where discrepancy might happen.
Of huh, I feel like I'mattracted to him, but I don't
(25:20):
feel like there is that I canrely on him.
Okay, let's get curious.
So is this a pattern from yourchildhood?
Is perhaps was a parent or acaregiver not reliable and
that's just the way it was, andyou kind of had to suck it up
and normalize that?
So when we give ourself time toreflect on these questions and
(25:40):
bring our hormones out of theformula we can understand.
Is it a pattern, repeating ornot I love that so much.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Those three R's.
Those are very important threeR's any young couples that I
know.
So my niece was getting marriedand I said, well, before you
marry him, you guys need to goto Ikea and buy something big
and build it together and seehow it goes, Because it tells
you a lot about a person.
When you're doing somethingdifficult, you're working
together, you have to cooperateLike there's a lot that goes
(26:10):
into that.
It's kind of a joke that I havewith people because it's always
really difficult, but I lovehow you said what are your
non-negotiables?
Is this something that you feellike you coach people on in
relationships and setting up?
What are your non-negotiablesand do you consider your
non-negotiables to be yourboundaries in a relationship?
Because I would say boundariesare not for other people,
they're for you.
That I'm the one who doesn't goagainst this boundary that this
(26:36):
is something important to me.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah, understanding our non-negotiables can be
tricky when we haven't becomefully familiar with a more
healed version of ourself, right?
So first, that's where theinner work comes on.
Who am I?
Who am I outside of thisconditioning?
Who am I outside of the labelsthat my parents have put on me,
that society has put on me?
(26:58):
So if you don't know yournon-negotiables right away, it's
okay and just be patient withyourself.
But a technique that I love isthe six intimacy tanks.
And when we think of intimacywe think of sex or physical.
And I'm here to expand thatdefinition for you and say let's
look at intimacy through sixdifferent lenses physical and
(27:19):
sexual, but also emotional,intellectual, spiritual and
experiential.
So physical is non-sexual touchwe're holding hands, hugging,
kissing.
Sexual is sexual.
In monogamous relationshipsit's a non-negotiable.
In non-monogamous it might notbe a non-negotiable Em
non-monogamous it might not be anon-negotiable.
Emotional is do I feel safeexpressing my emotions to this
(27:39):
person, my feelings?
Intellectual is does thisperson intellectually stimulate
me?
Spiritual is can we talk aboutspirituality and rituals around
spirituality and religion, butalso our values and our belief
systems?
And lastly, experiential istraveling, going to restaurants,
doing similar hobbies.
So if I were to put all thesesix tanks?
(28:01):
Yes, ideal for our partner tomeet all six.
But, as Dr Esther Perel says, weare like living in a period of
time where there's never beenthis much expectation on our
partners as ever before.
Now we expect you to beeverything our best friend, our
lover, our partner, this or that.
And it's a lot of work and youknow we can't control external
(28:22):
circumstances.
Sometimes challenges come up inlife and we just don't have the
capacity.
I'm coming home.
I've seen a lot of clients.
I'm like, oh, I don't want tobe there for my partner.
I'm out of like a 10 out of 100.
And so we want to ask ourselveswhich one out of the six, which
ones are my non-negotiable?
Is it absolutely a deal breakerthat my partner intellectually
(28:46):
simulate me?
Or can I get that need met atwork for my colleagues or my
best friends?
And we want to put as manypeople as we can into these
tanks because one day if ourpartner comes home like similar
to what I shared and doesn'thave the capacity and they are
our go-to person for emotionalthen I can call my brother or my
(29:06):
mom and lean into them for thatmeet.
So I love this practice ofwriting the six down and then
asking yourself which ones isabsolutely a non-negotiable that
your partner meets, and thenwho else can meet that, and
opening that conversation andyou might have different
responses than your partner.
Your partner might say you know,for me it's super important
(29:29):
that we have experientialintimacy and for me I might say
it's super important we haveemotional intimacy.
How can we meet halfway, howcan compromise, how can we meet
each other's needs?
But we're not going to knowuntil we talk about it.
And we really need to normalizetalking about our needs, go on
(29:57):
dates or when we travel, we goon a picnic.
I feel so seen, I need us toschedule more of this and I
would love for us to schedulemore of this and expressing it,
because your mind, your partner,is not a mind reader, despite
what Disney has sold to us.
They are not our mind readers.
So we need, we are responsiblefor getting our needs met.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Oh, I love that so much.
And even and I love the idea ofhaving different people in each
of those containers, becauseeven my husband will I'll be
trying to have a conversationwith him and he will I mean,
with his relational skills thatwe have now he'll say, sweetie,
I want to hear this and be therefor you in this.
But I'm sensing that you mighthave a better conversation if
you called your girlfriend.
(30:32):
If you called your girlfriendand I was like, oh, you know
what?
You're right, I am going to gocall a girlfriend about this,
because she's going to be muchmore supportive in this
situation than you are.
And I met this really old couplethey were having we were at a
restaurant and they were havingtheir 60th wedding anniversary
and they had all of theirwrinkles all frozen in the right
places.
They just looked so happy.
And so I went over andcongratulated them and I said do
(30:53):
you have any marital advice?
And the woman said oh, it'seasy.
She said you have your thing,he has his thing, and then you
have your together thing.
And I really liked that becauseit really, you know, it takes
the pressure off of your, likeyou said, off of your mate, your
partner, your spouse, to beeverything for you, because,
conversely, if you're expectingthat of them, then they have the
(31:13):
right to expect that of youback, and that's a lot of
pressure to put on someone.
And so I'm curious if you haveany advice for growing together,
because, as you are in arelationship for a long time,
like I told my husband, we'regoing into our 14th year of
marriage and I said, you know,we're about to start our third
iteration of each other together, and so it's, you know, like
(31:34):
every seven years you change,and that's definitely true of us
.
And so how do you re-evaluateand renegotiate your
relationship with your partner?
Do you do that with yourpartner?
How, what would?
What advice do you have aroundgrowing together instead of
growing apart?
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Well, congratulations on this anniversary that's
coming up for you and I love theadvice that she gave me.
And then you and then us.
Curiosity, I think, is a verypowerful trait and skill I would
say actually skill that if westrengthen, can really enhance
the quality of our relationship.
And curiosity that ourpartner's not the same person
(32:12):
they were yesterday, especiallyin long term relationships.
We just assume I just know you,but we're not.
I'm not the same person theywere yesterday, especially in
long-term relationships.
We just assume I just know you,but we're not.
I'm not the same person I waslast week.
So if my partner makes thatassumption, they're not really
going to want to get to knowthis week's version's internal
state.
So, continuing to be curiouswith one another, tell me more
about that.
What's on your mind?
The Godman Institute suggests aState of the Union meeting which
(32:35):
is in essence like a weeklymeeting where we sit down and
say what went well for us, whatdidn't go well and how we can
make it better.
So really creating carvingintentional time out of our
calendar to do that.
But one other practice I'm allabout practical tips is creating
this list, so things that arefor me that I don't want to
(32:57):
share with you.
They're for me, Things that arefor you that you don't want to
share with me, Things that arefor me, that I want to share
with you but they're notnecessarily your thing, Things
that are for you, that you wantto share with me but are not
necessarily my thing, and thingsthat we like to do together.
I have couples sit down andwrite this list and frequent
this list, let's say every sixmonths, every year, and see if
(33:20):
anything has changed.
So let's say, for me and myrelationship, my partner loves
golf.
I'm not gonna do it, so that'shis thing.
That stays for him.
I love to bake he doesn't liketo do that, things.
That stays with me.
But for example, I love togarden and that's something I'd
like to experience with him.
So I bring out that bid forconnection.
(33:40):
It would really mean a lot tome if we could do this,
sometimes together and he'llbring his request.
And then there's we both loveto travel.
So just same way that we wouldsay to ourselves, saying it to
our partners and just beingcurious with one another and
each other's internal state.
I say curiosity savesrelationships.
(34:01):
Assumptions ruin them.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
What do you do in the case of?
You are the partner you cameinto a relationship and let's
say you weren't, you were stillin your patterning and you
weren't aware of theconditioning that you were in.
And then you start doing selfgrowth and personal growth and
you become more emotionallyintelligent than your partner
and they're not doing the work.
So what do you do or recommendfor people to do then, when it
(34:23):
kind of starts to feel one sided?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Honestly, it's different for everyone.
I have seen couples where wherethe energetic frequency of that
up-leveling was sacred andstrong enough to pull the other
partner into it, and it wasn'tpulled in through dictating, it
(34:48):
was pulled in through embodiment, right.
So they first start to do thework and they're not dictating
to the other person, they're notbeing their teacher, they're
not trying to change the otherperson, they're not.
They're not being their teacher, they're not trying to change
the other person.
They're so wholly invested inthemselves that the partner
after a while goes like you'vechanged what did you do, like
you seem calmer, we're notfinding as much what is
happening, and they start toshow a little bit of interest in
(35:09):
that person's world.
That can happen.
I've also seen couples who maybehave more of a logical element
to their dynamic coming andsaying listen, I'm doing this,
it's important for me that youcome on to this as well, because
of X, y, z.
And they'll come to couplestherapy and they'll work on it
together.
Couples coaching, and they'llwork on it together.
And then I've also seen couplesthat, hey, I've changed and I'm
(35:35):
not here to change you, but Ialso can't accept this version
of you and the other person'slike I don't want to change, and
then it's all about consciouslydecoupling.
So it's like, as I'm growing,can I still accept this person
as they are?
Sometimes the answer is yes,because they lean into the other
intimacy tanks from otherpeople that they're getting in
their community and theirpartner's still filling their
(35:57):
non-negotiables, and sometimesit's no.
So it really there's no onesize fits all, but I would
really say no one wants to datea teacher, like no one wants to
be told what to do, and as muchas our intentions are pure of
like, I just learned somethingnew.
I want you to know it.
Like you know, we want to sharewhen we're invited to share,
and the best way to do that isembodiment, practicing,
(36:21):
practicing.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
That is so true.
I found that to be definitelythe case in my relationship that
as I changed my relationshipwith myself, it changed how I'm
relating to the world, and thatincludes my relationship with my
spouse, and he definitelystarted to level up
automatically.
And I joked and he's like.
He said I'm just cheating offof your homework.
Yeah, clearly, I said, butthat's okay, it was really cute.
(36:45):
Well, tanaz, I love thisconversation.
It's so valuable becauserelationships are just such a
treasure and, like you said inthe beginning, they are a mirror
to us and we're a mirror to oneanother in our relationships.
And the work that you're doingis so beautiful.
I love the practicality of itand the science behind it and
just all of the things thatyou're offering.
Where can people find you andhow can they work with you, and
(37:05):
do you have anything interestingcoming up that people might be
interested in?
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Thank you for creating the space and for
asking all these lovelyquestions.
It's been an honor to share.
I am, my website is Minutes onGrowth, so Minutes, and then O-N
Growth.
On my website there is a freeebook on nervous system
regulation.
So 11 tools that you canpractice, and I want everyone to
know that there again, no onesize fits all.
(37:31):
You wanna personalize andcustomize your life based on
what you want and what works andresonates with you.
Try the tools out, see whichone you feel comfortable with
that has a positive response foryou, and then practice that
tool when you're triggered orproactively, and that really
will enhance the quality of yourrelationship with yourself and
(37:52):
with others, platonic andromantic.
So I work one-on-one withclients or with couples and,
depending on when this episodeis coming out, I am hosting a
women's retreat in Tuscany thissummer, August 18th to the 23rd.
It's a nervous system reset.
It's called self-worth,self-care and sisterhood In my
(38:16):
opinion, the three pillars of afeeling seen, heard and
understood and appreciated.
So if your nervous system wouldlike to heal in community,
that's an option.
If you'd like to do itone-on-one, that's an option.
I have a few masterclasses onmy website that couples can
purchase and watch over and overand over again, because
repetition is key.
(38:37):
I still watch them over andover and over again and yeah,
there's a lot of tools on thereto check Beautiful.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
This was just such a great conversation and so many
valuable tips and tools and Iappreciate your time and your
wisdom and this retreat soundsamazing.
Thank you, troy, I reallyappreciate it.
Thank you, thank you forlistening to we Woke Up Like
this.
Your likes, comments, sharesand subscribes help this content
reach new listeners, and I soappreciate you and remember,
(39:03):
luminous One, that your radiantand magnetic presence changes
the world.
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