EP09: Becoming Vanessa | A Story of Courage and True Liberation with Vanessa James - What I Didn't Know: Building the Life You Recovered For

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
There are moments in life that put us open.

(00:02):
By unraveling such brain ortruth, we just don't need it.
And so we have no truth.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us.
The things I wish someone hadtold me that I only understand
and looked at.
Come on in.
You belong here.
And we're going to talk aboutall of it.
I'm your host, Natanya, and thisis what I didn't know.

(00:29):
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
medical treatment.
Please listen with care andpause any time you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.

(00:49):
Today's guest is Vanessa James.
Vanessa is a friend of mine andalso a transgender woman.
This episode is much longer thanusual.
There are hard parts, there areintense parts, there are things
about this that are veryemotional.
When she was young, she talksabout getting passed along from
family member to family member,kind of like in a pinball

(01:11):
machine, home to home, and shereally didn't have anywhere that
she belonged.
I don't talk a lot in thisepisode because I really wanted
to give her room to tell herfull story that she belongs
here, and we're gonna allow herto take up some space.
So this is the true story of howVanessa became.

(01:56):
So I'm just gonna start withwhen I met you.
Okay.
So when I met you, you wereLeland.

SPEAKER_01 (02:02):
Yeah.
That name is still weird tohear.

SPEAKER_00 (02:05):
It is weird.
It is weird.
And I I was telling you when Itexted you the other day, I was
looking for you in my phone andI couldn't find it.
And I was like, I know I haveher number.
Um and then that I found itbecause it was under the wrong
name.
And I was like, we're gettingrid of this.
Delete.
But so yeah, I just think yourexperience is so interesting and

(02:26):
unique, and you're soimpassioned as a person, which I
have such a great admirationfor.
Um, but I would love to talk toyou a little bit about the past
and what this has been like foryou before you were Vanessa.

SPEAKER_01 (02:40):
Definitely.
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 (02:43):
Um, so when did you what was this like for you
growing up, or when did youfirst know or have thoughts
about that you might notidentify the same way that you
were born?

SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
Um that's a great question.
It's so funny.
You were like, you said, uh, youknow, I know little bits about
you, but not everything.
And it's interesting when I talkabout my story in my act of
addiction and my recoveryjourney.
I always started off with like,I can't tell you everything,
just a little bit, because Idon't remember everything.

SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:12):
Most of the life was a blur.
But to answer your question,from my earliest memories, so I
grew up in very rural Oklahoma.
And I say I grew up.

SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
I say I didn't know that.
Oklahoma?
I didn't know that at all.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
For the most part, yeah.
But um my family, we were very,very, very much just engulfed in
poverty all the way around.
Um, and so I would kind of get,I don't know, handed off, passed
off from family member to familymember.
So I would live with mom for ayear or two, and then I'd go to
Arkansas and live with my auntfor a year, and then I'd come

(03:48):
over and live with mygrandmother.
Most of the family lived inOklahoma, but sometimes it was
Missouri, it was Arkansas, itwas Texas.
Um, and to be honest with you,the longest string uh of time
that I ever lived in one placewas for three years.
Um wow.
And that's when I graduated highschool.
So the last three years of highschool, I lived in the same

(04:09):
place, and I honestly considerthat home.
That was the the most stabilityI ever had.
Uh because it might be asemester or a year, maybe two,
and then I would get handed offto the next family member.
Um, very gosh, change is part ofmy story.
But to circle back, all of thefamily members everywhere I
lived was very, very ruralcountry towns, like dirt roads,

(04:33):
uh, sometimes there was farms,usually living in trailers and
in Tornado Alley.
That's always fun.

SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
I can imagine.

SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
But my earliest memories, I mean, I, gosh, so
vividly, I can remember being achild and usually around aunts
and grandmothers and justfeeling like I connected with
them and feeling, you know, thatlike I was a female, I was a
girl.
I didn't act it out per sebecause all I knew were the
country boys that I was around,you know?

SPEAKER_00 (05:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (05:04):
And I enjoyed doing it.
You know, I I played football, Ibailed hay, I worked on cars,
you know, I was I was a guy'sguy.
Um, but inside I felt like I wassomeone different.
And the name Vanessa, I didn'tchoose that.
Since I can remember as a kid, Idon't know if it's something I
saw on TV or where it was, butsince I was a little kid, I just

(05:26):
knew deep inside that my namewas Vanessa.
Like I was Vanessa.
And even throughout my life,when things would happen
internally, I'd be like, oh,that was just Vanessa that was
doing that.

SPEAKER_00 (05:37):
Oh, I love that so much.

SPEAKER_01 (05:40):
She was always in there being like, ooh, kitty
cat.
When outside I couldn't, youknow, I was like, oh stupid cat.
Uh so gosh, as early as I canremember, I was always Vanessa.
I always I knew this was who Iwas, but I couldn't be that
because all of the community,all of my family around me, they

(06:03):
were very vocal about theirdislike for the LGBTQ plus
community.
Um I didn't even know what itwas.
All I all I knew was that girlslike girls, guys like guys, and
I was like, that's not me,because I don't like guys, but
I'm a girl, so I was confused mywhole life.

(06:24):
And so I was like, maybe I'm notgay.
I don't know.
Maybe I'm just broken.
Maybe there's something wrongwith me, and I'm I don't know.
So I shoved it down, shoved itdown inside, um, and just hid it
as long as I could possiblyremember.
Gosh, whole life.

SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
Yeah, I want to go back to something really quick
because it's so unusual to movethat much and to be like handed
off.
What was the source of that orthe reasoning for that that you
know of?

SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
Gosh, I really wish I knew.
Um well, I mean, I I I kind ofknow some.
So I'll give you even more of abackground.
Um, my father, my real father,uh lived on the Cherokee Nation
Reservation.
So his whole family is a hundredpercent Native American.
Um, I was the first born in anentire bloodline that wasn't a
hundred percent Native American.

(07:16):
So I have my roll card.
It says that I'm I'm half.
Um and so my mom was not.
My mom was the outsider.
So my father, when he went awayto the military, um, had met my
mom, and my mom was very muchthe grateful dead, like hippie
chick, was my whole life, youknow.
Um but he met the the the girlfrom outside of the reservation

(07:38):
who is not native in any way.
Um and so there was there was abig dispute between the
families.
And so when I would go visit myfather on the reservation, you
know, I didn't speak thelanguage, I didn't look like
them, I wasn't one of them.
So the kids would pick on me andbeat me up.
I couldn't understand what myaunts and uncles were saying to

(08:00):
me.
I had one uncle that was verynice and he would talk to me and
his his my uncle James, um,which is my last name now.
But it is he was nice and he wasloving, he was caring, and he
supported me throughout the restof my life until he passed, but
I wasn't welcome whenever I wenthome.
And whenever I would come backto mom's house, I didn't look

(08:21):
like them.
So I have a stepbrother that'sseven years younger than me.
And when I say that I was passedaround from family member to
family member, it was me.
My brother stayed home.
He's blonde haired, blue-eyed,came from a good family.
I was just in a small ruraltown.
You know, everybody looks thesame.
I'll just say it, they're abunch of white boys riding their
four-wheelers, riding theirpickup trucks.

(08:43):
And then I looked very NativeAmerican in that culture.
But when I went back home, I didnot, or to my dad's side, I did
not.
So I was the one that was passedaround from aunt to uncle to
family member to family member.
My brother would stay home, andit instantly made me think that
something's wrong with me.
And I knew that Vanessa wasinside, and so I'm like, maybe
people see this.

(09:04):
Maybe I should act more likethis male presenting person that
they want to see.
Maybe I should pick some fights,you know?
And so I did.
Right, right, right, right.
It I just wanted to be loved andto be accepted, and it was like
no matter where I went, I wouldget to that family member, I'd
feel like I'm starting to belongand I'd connect, I'd go to
school and I'd start to makefriends and whatnot, and then be

(09:28):
handed off to the next one.
I'm sure looking back that Iprobably was acting out in some
way.
I probably was being an honorlittle butthead.
But at that time, I was justlike, I just want to be
accepted.
Like, what do you want me to do?
What can I do?
How am I gonna make you love meum when I can't even love
myself?
Type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 (09:48):
Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense.
And I can remember, like, firstof all, that's a lot for a kid.
You know, like not only thefamily member passing around,
the different schools, but thenalso having another sibling who
is not having that experienceand it like sets you apart
whether you like it or not.

(10:09):
That's a lot to to witness.
And and kids are smart, right?
I can remember being a kid andpicking up on things and just
trying on who I am in differentways than what you're talking
about.
But it's the same process ofyou're trying to figure out who
you are, and then you add in allthose other layers of like
questions because you don'tunderstand something, especially

(10:31):
when you see someone else who'slike in the same title as you
are.
We're both siblings or whatever,but they're not getting the same
treatment that I am, right?
Yeah.
So what happened after like highschool?
I I'm assuming how many schoolsdid you actually go to?

SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
Oh my gosh, I couldn't even count.

SPEAKER_00 (10:50):
That's a lot.
I mean, I'm guessing a lot basedon the way that you described.

SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
It was, but then a lot of times they were repeat
high school or repeat schools.
Okay.
So, you know, I'd go back toAunt Thelma's a couple times.
I I remember her quite a bit.
I loved her, she was great.
Um, she lived in Arkansas, but Ialso have to give this
background too, that on my mom'sside of the family, they were
all very, very, very muchinvolved in their religion,

(11:15):
Southern Baptists.
So when I would go to theirhouseholds, you know, I was
involved in all of the churchactivities.
I mean, we were at the churchfive nights a week, basically,
all the time.
And, you know, diving into it.
And so again, they were veryvocal about their feelings of
people who didn't, you know, fitinto their category, which

(11:35):
included the LGBTQ.
And again, I didn't think thatthat was me, but I knew that I
wasn't this image that they wereportraying type of thing.
Like, I wanted to wear pink, Iwanted to be, you know, have
nails and have fun.
But I uh I needed to drive atruck and you know, date my high
school sweetheart, which I did.
Um gosh, so I couldn't tell youhow many schools, but a lot of

(11:59):
them were repeat.
And when I would go back to theschools, sometimes they would
remember me.
And you know, I'd grown a yearor two, or maybe three years,
and things had changed, andinstantly like that guy image,
you know, fighting and being abully.
And I think a lot of it now thatI've had enough time to work

(12:20):
with my therapist and go througha lot of changes since becoming
Vanessa, even before that, youknow, that's where a lot of my
gosh, anger and hatred came fromwas like you were saying, my
brother got to stay there.
I didn't.
Why is this happening to me?
So those three years, Branson,Missouri is where I I lived.
So I grew up that's home to me,Branson, Missouri.

(12:41):
And it's because my stepfathergot a job up there, so he left
Oklahoma.
Mom went up there, I went therestage until my senior year in
high school, and I actually gotin trouble with the law.
Me and a bunch of my friendsdoing stupid stuff, and I was
kicked out of my house.
So my senior year in highschool, I actually secretly
lived in a barn on a friend's uhproperty.

SPEAKER_02 (13:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:05):
I lived upstairs above the cows, and I would go
to work.
I had a job, and I went toschool because I wanted to
finish school.
Um and so my senior year of highschool, I finished it and
graduated, living in a barn withno electricity, no nothing.
I would sneak into town and goto the little rec center and
take a shower or find a friend'shouse and let me take a shower.

(13:26):
But um, I had a job.
And so I was making money and Iwas getting a car and doing
stuff, got an apartment withsome friends, and then my high
school sweetheart, she and Iwere expecting, unexpectedly
expecting.
Uh-huh.

unknown (13:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:43):
And so, you know, college dreams.
I I enrolled, I went for asemester, and then I came back
just because this was takingoff.
And um, yeah, I had to hideVanessa even more because now
it's gonna be a father.
Now I was going to be hopefullymore accepted in my family and

(14:03):
community because you know theywanted this male figure and they
wanted grandbabies and theywanted all of this stuff.
And so I thought things weregonna progress, and my family
did start to come around.
You know, they were very muchinvolved whenever we were
starting to have the babyprocess.
Sure.
But it was very much all plansof Vanessa went out the door.

(14:25):
It didn't exist anymore.
It to me, I had to shove itdown, and you know, being a
father wasn't something that Iexpected.
I wanted, I didn't think thatwould ever happen to me.
But when it happened, you know,it was everything.
That's all that mattered to me.
Like I would have, I would havegiven my life, I would have
taken lives, you know, I wouldhave done anything for my child.

(14:48):
I mean, gosh, it it just changedeverything.
And so for a while, Vanessa wentaway.
You know, she wasn't peeking herhead up, she wasn't there.
I was doing the dad thing, goingto work, taking care of the
family, making sure that thehouse was taken care of, but
more importantly, my family.
Um, and then fast forward abouta year later, baby number two is

(15:12):
on the way.

SPEAKER_00 (15:12):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (15:13):
I had we had gotten married because we were
pregnant.
It was my high schoolsweetheart, but we weren't
there.
You know, we never really were.
It was a high schoolrelationship that turned into
parental relationship reallyfast.
And so neither one of us got tocontinue with our education,
neither one of us got to go doour dreams.
Um, I couldn't be myself.

(15:34):
So resentment started to set inon both of us.
Um, and resentment started toset in from the family members.
And gosh, then I'd start go, I'dgo bowling with my friends on
the weekend, and that wouldbasically meant we'd go get
loaded at the strip club.
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.
But we were going bowling.
Right.
And so it quickly fell apart,super fast, fell apart, and that

(15:59):
was kind of one of the firsttimes in my life that I was
like, okay, maybe I can be mytrue authentic self.
But in my mind, the only thing Iknew, and again, growing up in
rural Oklahoma, were dragqueens.
And I was like, that's not me.
Because those people in my mindwere pretending, and it was just
so much.
You know, it's like this show.

(16:20):
So I'm like, no, that's not me.
And that's not who I want to be,but I know something's wrong.
Something is wrong inside.
This is who I need to be.
I was so confused.
Um, so I just again thought thatI'm it's a mistake.
Something is wrong with me.
I'm not right up here.
I'm sure not gonna go get itfixed because I'm a country boy
from Oklahoma.

(16:40):
We don't ask for help.
Yeah.
So marriage number one fellapart um really fast.
We had a very, very um easydivorce.
We both agreed it wasn't theright thing.
We paid$40, went to thecourthouse, joint custody, split
everything down the middle, andwe're super connected for a

(17:03):
couple years until I startedmarriage number two.

SPEAKER_00 (17:07):
Okay.
And so give me an age age, howare old are you approximately?

SPEAKER_01 (17:12):
So this would have been, whoo, I'm old.
Uh this would have been not old.
I got married for the firstmarriage when I was 19.
Um yeah, 19 years old.
And that lasted for three years.
So roughly 21 is whenever thatended.
Um, and then by 23, I wasmarried again with my second

(17:33):
marriage.

SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
Wow.
And what was your job?
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
So whenever I, gosh, first marriage was very much,
you know, just out of highschool.
I was a manager at a RockyMountain chocolate factory.
Actually, I was makingchocolate, I was flipping food.
It was great.
I loved it.
I got to eat all the sweets thatI wanted, and I got to kind of
just be silly and be myself.
But right after that, themarriage kind of fell apart, and
I went and lived with mygrandmother in Oklahoma.

(18:00):
Um she was pretty much the onlylike solid parental figure I had
in my entire life, even though Ididn't live with her for very
long extents of time.
She was always there.
I always talked to her, alwayslet her, she was always my
support.
Um, so I went to stay with herwhile I got grounded, I guess,
or figured things out.
Because it devastated me.
Like I said, my children becamemy everything.

(18:23):
And then when that happened andthey weren't there with me every
day, even though I had themevery weekend and you know, this
and that, because we we were100% equal on our visitation.
Um it it was a safe place for meto go.
And it was about three hoursaway from Branson, so it wasn't
too, too far away.
So um then my ex moved toOklahoma, which would made it

(18:43):
even closer.
Um, but at that point I went toschool.
I actually became a radio DJ.

SPEAKER_00 (18:51):
What?
I don't think I knew thateither.
That's the show, that's youwould be great at that, also
just sidebar.

SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
But and that's kind of a a part of my story, is
because I always wanted to be amusician, but I couldn't afford
an instrument.
I didn't think I could do that.
Family came.
So I was like, the only way Ican get connected with the music
industry is to support others.
So I went to school, um, dideverything that I needed to to
start working entry level at aradio station.
You know, I was a grunt work fora long time, recording radio

(19:19):
commercials and working at theirfestivals and doing the midnight
show, then working my way up andstuff.
Um, but I moved to the big city,Tulsa, Oklahoma.
That was the biggest city I'dever been in, and it terrified
me when I got there.
Looking back, it's like a smallsuburb, but at that point in
time, it was massive.

SPEAKER_02 (19:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
And so Country Boy moves to the city, Vanessa
starts to come out.
Like, I can become myself,nobody knows me here.
Maybe I can do this.
And so I'm I'm I'm starting tothink that it's a possibility
and trying to figure out a wayhow.
Well, at that point in time, I'mstarting to, I guess, make
friends.

(19:59):
Um, and I meet a new girl, andwe worked together.
I worked at a uh uh Team Mobile.
Before it was Team Mobile, itwas actually Voice Through
Wireless.
We worked together there.
Um one night stand at a JoanJett and the Black Arts concert.
And then a couple months later,I found out that, hey, we're
we've got something to talkabout, um, which means that

(20:20):
again, I'm gonna have to changedirection, shove Vanessa back
in, focus on trying to maintainbeing a father with my first two
and become a father with the newone.
Um, so Vanessa went away again.
I had that glimpse moment oflike, I can do this.
I'm in a big city, there'sresources, it's acceptable, I'm
gonna do this, and I put it downagain.

(20:43):
And that's really when thedepression started.
Um, the two wives didn't getalong, which meant that my
children didn't um go unscathed.
You know, they were affected.
I didn't get to see them asmuch, and they got to see the
fighting, which made me evenmore depressed.
Um it kind of spiraled out ofcontrol.

(21:05):
So both of my marriages lastthree years.
So about 26 years old, thesecond marriage starts to fall
apart.
Um, at that point in time, I hadclimbed the corporate ladder at
uh voice trim, it became teammobile, I was part of the
merger.
Um, I was a corporate trainer, Iwas traveling the country, which
kind of helped with not beingable to see my kids because uh
then I'd be like, okay, it wasbecause of work, not because

(21:27):
there was a feud between thefamily.
So I would put the bladesomewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 (21:31):
Yeah, I see that.
Yeah, exactly.
I see what you did there.

SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Right.
But my drinking, none of thathad really started yet.
It was, you know, I might have abeer with my my burger at, you
know, the restaurant.
I might go golfing with the guyson the weekends and have a few
too many, but that was just oneday, and that was it.
Um because I had a family totake care of, and that was my

(21:57):
priority.
Well, second marriage started togo away, and it was a it was a
horrible marriage, actually.
I'm still working through a lotof trauma on it, and I'm sure
she is as well.
Um we it we were not kind toeach other in any way, and it
affected both of us, whichaffected the kids.
It was horrible.
The divorce on that end was avery, very long process, and so

(22:19):
I started working a part-timejob to pay for my attorney fees,
which was waiting tables.
And so I was working in thecorporate world during the day,
waiting tables.
Um, and I say corporate world, Iwas a graphic design at a
newspaper, basically.
So um, at this point in time, Istarted to get attention from
the people I worked with.
Like they liked me.

(22:39):
It wasn't the the feelings thatI was getting at home, and like
the friends that I had in mymarriage were my wife's friends.
We had joint friends, and shewas quick to turn them on to me.
And so I didn't have anyfriends.
When I started waiting tables,people liked me, they enjoyed
me.
Um, and then I'd get a shiftdrink at the end of the night,
and boy, we'd have fun withthose shift drinks.

(23:01):
And then next thing you know,I'm moving into bartending, and
girls like me, and I'm gettingattention, and I was like, I
don't need that corporate worldanymore.
I'm making cash right now.
I've got people fawning over me.
Um, it's okay to wake up in themorning and not remember what I
did because we laugh about itand move on.
So I got rid of the suit andtie, got tattoos, grew out some

(23:24):
long hair, and bought a guitar.
And that's where the nextchapter starts.

SPEAKER_00 (23:28):
Okay.
Um this is I'm just this is justI'm just listening.
Like I'm just listening becauseit's so interesting.
And I don't have a questionright now.
I just want you to keep going.
So what happened after that?
Because it's so well there's somuch.
Right, right?
There's so much to all of this.

(23:50):
Not only is it long, but it'svast, and there's so many
different aspects to it, right?
We have work stuff and find youknow your way through that and
parenting and relationships, andthen your own identity and your
own family, right?
Reading through all of these,and you're not even 30 yet.

SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
No, not yet.
I remember when I was becoming30, I was having a mental
breakdown of like, what?
I haven't accomplished anything.
I didn't finish school, I didn'tdo this.
But, you know, looking back frommy experience, you know, I I
graduated high school, I got alittle bit of college in, I
mean, a very small, I did alittle bit of trade school to

(24:27):
become a DJ, but then I wentfrom nothing to, you know,
training the CEO and COO of thismassive organization, traveling
all over the U.S.
training management.
I didn't train individuals.
People respected me and admiredme.
And it got to a point where, youknow, I did have the
conversation there, like youcan't climb the corporate ladder

(24:48):
until you get some schoolingunderneath.
That's what we call it back inthe South schooling.
You know, you're down there.

SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
I do.
I am.
I'm still learning, but yes.

SPEAKER_01 (25:01):
Right.
And honestly, when I had thatconversation, that's when I was
like, well, I'm not moving.
I can't, I have kids, I don'thave time, I can't do this, and
then went into the newspaper umas sales, but I started watching
people doing their graphicdesigns, asking questions, this
and that.
I I bought the Photoshop versionat that time and started

(25:21):
creating my own designs for thesales.
And then the the editor of thenewspaper was like, yo, why are
you doing that?
You need to be doing this.
This is amazing.
Because it was a an alternativeweekly paper, very much like the
Westward, you know, uh.
And so I moved over to that andstarted all of this without
education.
And then so corporate trainer, Iwas, you know, at that point in
time, I was paying for myyoungest child to go to the same

(25:43):
private school that Garth Brookswas because we live miles down
from his house.
Um, my ex-wife was an auditorfor MCI WorldCom.
We all know how that turned out.
We were making a lot of moneyearly in our 20s, you know, both
of us six figures, and neitherone of us was schooling.
We just did it ourselves.
Um, and yet that modality stillsticks with me.

(26:05):
That's kind of where I'm at now.
Wow.
But uh um, so gosh, guitar, uh,bartending.
That's really where thingschanged.
I was going through a lot ofdepression because the
relationship between my twooldest kids and my youngest was
being torn apart due to thedivorce and a lot of resentments
from the mothers and myself, andit was like this three-way

(26:27):
whirlwind of battles that wasgoing on.
And my second wife was from Ohioand she was wanting to move
back.
I had filed for divorce on mysecond wife.
It was it was very, very, very,very traumatic and harmful to
me.
And I finally got to a pointwhere I was like, I can't do
this.
I found my way out.
I filed for divorce.

(26:48):
Um, her family is very wealthy,um, oil and gas money.
And so they were helping on herend, which was causing more
stress on my end, a lot ofdepression.
And I used, again, those shiftdrinks, finding finding a
connection, and that's when myalcohol addiction really took
off.
I hadn't ventured into anythingelse, but like it was a way for

(27:10):
me to just stop thinking aboutthe day, stop thinking about
Vanessa, who kept trying to peekin every now and then.
You know, I it was easier topush her away then because there
was so much more immediate needwith my children at the time.
She was always there, but it waseasier to just be like, give me
a shot.
We've got to get the next thingdone.
Um, and so bartending, I kind offound my voice and identity.

(27:33):
I got a guitar, I startedplaying with um a coworker, and
we played in a really horriblelittle pop punk band, but the
bug hit because I was I was goodat it.
It wasn't that I really cravedto do it.
I enjoyed doing it, but Ienjoyed the attention from the
crowd more than anything becauseI hadn't got that from my

(27:53):
family.
I hadn't got it from you know,my siblings, I hadn't got it
from my my wife's, um, and nowmy children I very rarely get to
see because every time I try,there's battle.
And so, like, I have nobodythat's giving me love, nobody
giving me attention.
Once the divorces start, thefamily disappeared.
They put the blame on me becauseI wasn't being this image that

(28:15):
they thought I needed to be, andyou know, fix it no matter what.
And I couldn't.
I couldn't, I didn't want to.
Um I wanted to be there for mykids, but I didn't want Tim to
go through the fighting that wasgoing on.
I didn't want them to see that.
So started playing music,started playing in front of
people, and they liked me.
And it was girls, and I waslike, oh my gosh, people, yes,
this is how I can be somebodythat people like.

(28:38):
Um and behind the bar, it's thesame thing, exact same thing.
And so it quickly took off.
So the first band kind of fellapart.
I instantly went and auditionedfor a bunch of bands.
I went from punk band to a jamband.
I just wanted to play music so Icould be in front of people and
get that love and affection.
Um, and I found out that I'mgood at multiple instruments.

(29:03):
And so, like, other bands wantedme to join, and I did, and we
started playing more, which wasmore attention.
And then that's whenever thedrugs and stuff started coming
in.
And I was kind of like that whatis that B Cox movie with Will
Fair or uh what's his name?
Um, where he's playing the oldrockabilly-esque type of

(29:23):
musician, and you'd walk intothe green room and he's like,
What are you doing in here?
And they'd explain what drug itwas.
Like, you don't want this.
That's how it was with me.
Like, I'd walk in and be like,Whoa, what is this?
And they're like, yo, get out ofhere.
And I'm like, no, no, no, no, Iwant that.
And so it was one after theother after the other.
Um, multiple bands, and thenfinally I landed on a band to

(29:43):
where we were doing well.
We were playing a lot, we weretouring a lot, we were self
produced.
Um, you know, we were gettingasked to be on radio talk show
morning shows to talk about ourband.
We were playing festivals.
Um, I just the concert I went toyesterday.
Was to see The Descendants.
And the guitar player from TheDescendants actually recorded

(30:04):
our first full-length album.
He produced it.
He taught me so much.
He actually played some trackson there for.
So yesterday I was kind of like,oh gosh, I haven't seen this
dude in a long time.
Let's go see him shred.
Because he taught me a lot.
But that was when things reallytook off.
Because we were getting allkinds of attention and fame.
And my kids at this point becamean afterthought almost.

(30:25):
You know, they were there when Ihad to take them.
I thought about them all thetime.
I loved them, but every time Iwould call and the fight would
start made me not want to call.
Not want to call because it waseasier to grab a drink or to
just disappear with the ladiesand not think about life for a
while.
Um and as a musician, you know,you you have a everything at

(30:48):
your hands whenever you get to acertain point.
Um gosh, I I will never forgetthe last show that we had
played.
We were playing a festival, andlike the main headliners were
like The Flaming Lips, TheRoots, Ghostland Observatory,
and we were the kind of like theheadlining act on the the second
stage.
And things fell apart on thestage.
We had just gone into a recordcontract based out of Texas.

(31:11):
We were planning on moving.
Debacle fell apart.
We fought on stage, and thenthat's when I was like, I'm
done.
So I did move to Austin for ashort time to be a part of the
record contract, but I quicklysold out of it.
Went back to Tulsa for a momentwhere I was bartending for many
years, and that alcoholaddiction was out of control at

(31:34):
this time.
Um I skipped over a couple DUIsbecause that's I mean, it's not
relevant, but during that timeit really was.
Um and I'll I want to circleback to that in just a second.
But um, that's what I I boughtup with my money from the record
contract.
I bought a pop-up camper.
I threw my cat and my dog, mygirlfriend in it.
We moved to Estes Park thinkingit was gonna be a change.

(31:55):
And I would get, you know, makesomething new.
Um but that's that's part threeof the story.
Um, music is really where Ithought I found my identity and
where my addiction really tookoff.
And it was because of thedepression from the marriages,
as well as not being able to bemyself.
And how could I be myself if I'mfighting to get my kids back?

(32:17):
I couldn't become a woman and bea father.
So I just kept shoving it downeven more.

SPEAKER_00 (32:23):
Yeah, that's another really big aspect of that that
you don't consider when you'rethinking about all that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (32:30):
Yeah, because I just I had to be that dad that I
thought I had to be.
Then my whole life, everyonetold me I had to be.
Um, and they also told me how Iwas failing at it.
So like I I didn't know what todo.
But when I played music, when Iserved them drinks, I got
attention.
And the more I played music, itwas great.
Bartender musician is a greatrelationship because when you go

(32:51):
on tour, you can come back tothat job.
While you're at the job, you canpromote the local shows.
You know, it's like a win-win.
Um, and so gosh, yeah, Colorado.
Colorado is where I thought Icould get away.
You know, I loved camping, Ilove backpacking, I love doing
all of that stuff.

(33:12):
Um, and I thought this was gonnabe a fresh start.
Nobody knew me.
I hadn't drank in a year becauseI had just got off my second
DUI.
Um, and so I was doing great.
And I moved out here day one.
I was like, oh, just swing bythe luxury store and get a
little something, something.
And I remember like day oneblacked out, didn't unhold, you
know, unload the U-Haul, got ajob bartending the very next

(33:37):
day, and it just went 100 milesan hour.
Um, I thought that it was goingto be an opportunity to get away
from the drugs and alcoholbecause I wasn't playing music.
So I lived in Estes Park for thefirst year, and then wintertime
hit, you know, and they're goingfrom making hand over fist and
money every night to there'snobody in town.

(33:58):
I need to pay rent.
So I moved to Denver and uh gota job right off the bat,
bartending again.
Um, and after a short time,people would come in my bar
regulars that I'd get to know.
And they're like, oh, I'm amusician, I play this.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
I don't do that anymore becauseI knew where it would lead.
Two DUIs, a lot of depression.

(34:19):
That I wanted to get away frombecause I knew I was starting to
create my identity around that,and I wanted people to like me
for me.
So I fought it until I went overto just jam with some people.
Um next thing you know, I'm in aband and playing shows, and then
I'm getting asked to play inother bands.
At one point in time, I was infive bands at one time, and we
were all gigging out.

(34:40):
So it was like bartending,playing music all over Colorado,
uh, sometimes going on tour.
Um, and that identity piecekicked in.
In Colorado, I found more drugsthan I had ever anticipated or
ever saw in Oklahoma.
I was meeting a whole new crowd,and it took off.
Vanessa had really started totry to come out.

(35:02):
Um, new change coming toColorado, maybe it's a new
opportunity.
Um, but as soon as people likedme for that image they saw, I
wanted to hide her.
I was like, nope, people areliking me.
I don't need you.
I I can deal with this.
You'll just have to not ever be,you know.
Um, and again, I would refer tosome of those moments as like,
oh, that's Vanessa trying to getout, or that was Vanessa doing

(35:24):
this.
Um both of the times that I hadmy DUI, whenever I woke up the
next morning, I was wearing adress.
And nobody had ever seen me dothat before.
And I don't ever rememberputting the dress on, you know,
because I would black out andshe'd try to get out.
Um and so yeah, here inColorado, playing music, doing

(35:45):
well on one side, but really badon the other side.
Um, I started to get aggressivefrom the early childhoods, you
know, the the fighting, like Iwas saying.
Like it was instead of justdrinking to hide Vanessa, it was
drinking and fighting because Iwas angry at myself and being
just hurtful to people.
I didn't realize this until Istarted my recovery journey

(36:08):
because at that point in time Ijust thought I was the victim,
you know, like we always do.
Yeah, it's like I wouldn't havebroken the beer bottle over your
head if you weren't talkingcrap.

SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
Sorry, we'll fucking yeah, no, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 (36:23):
So gosh, it it got bad.
I went to detox a couple times.
I was a bartender.
I didn't have insurance.
I didn't think treatment was anoption, and I was paying for my
children, I was paying, youknow, the child support, I was
paying for their soccer, theirbraces, their musical
instruments.
Everything was going towardsthem.
I made really good money, butbetween my active drug use and

(36:45):
making sure that they had thenew Nikes and everything, I
didn't have anything to show forit.
I had my guitars, I had my bass,I had my piano, you know, I had
what made me money.
Um, that was it.
And sometimes I didn't because Iwould pawn them for drugs and
alcohol and forget that I had ashow the next week and I'd show
up like, hey, can I use yourbass?
I don't have one.

(37:06):
And I thought that was okay.
I thought that was normal.
Um, I mean, I was even makingmoney from gigs and still didn't
have them.
So goodness.
I'll go, I mean, fast forward tothat was just the recurring
thing, shoving Vanessa down towhere it just became violent and
angry.
And um my drug and alcohol usetook off.

(37:28):
I was prescribed clonopin for myanxiety, and that was a horrible
mix with alcohol.

SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yeah.
So I just that'll do you somegood.

SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
Yeah, I disappeared for years.
And I had the type of doctor towhere I could be on the bus, and
yes, I say bus.
I own two motorcycles and atruck, and I didn't drive them
because I was never in a stateof mind to where I could drive
them.
So I always took publictransportation.
Um, and I remember leaving onthe bus after his appointment,
after picking up my prescriptionand calling and being like, hey,

(37:59):
I just lost that prescription onthe bus, somebody took it, or
would it make an excuse and theywould change the the um
milligrams a little bit andorder me another one?
And so I had just bottles in mybag all the time of different
prescriptions and eating themlike Tic Tacs, and so
disappearing.
Um I disappeared so much thatwhen I moved to Steamboat to

(38:22):
become part or one of theinvestors in a uh restaurant up
there, um that I ended uphurting some people, and I don't
remember much of it, but uh Iwent to jail there.
I was in Route County for I gotsentenced for a year.
I did a little under it, but itwas the first time that this
soft, you know, there's achicken side, but like I'm a

(38:43):
musician.
I'm not I've I've done one nightin jail for my DUIs, I've never
done anything more than that,and here I am getting sentenced
um and being in the pod with theviolent offenders.
Um this is something completelynew.
Now, in hindsight, it'sSteamboat.
No, it wasn't anything to beterrified of, but I was
terrified at the time.

(39:04):
Uh but I learned how to, well,one, I didn't have anything in
my system.
Um and I I learned how to justbe okay with setting with myself
and thinking about how do Ibecome my real self.
I need therapy.
I need this.
Maybe I can become Vanessa.
And but being around guys andI'm not attracted to guys, I'm
like, I don't want, I don'tknow.

(39:26):
I don't want this.
This is gross, stay away fromme, but I need to be me.
So I started thinking about it,planning on it.
Um when I was released fromcounting in steamboat, it was
dumping snow.
I had to go dig my truck out.
It was it was horrible.
Uh and then I I drove to Denver.
This is where my my friends andfamily were.

(39:46):
I had resources here.
I had already lost everything inSteamboat.
My ex had left.
Um, I got bought out of my sharein the in the restaurant, left
on very bad terms.
Um, and then I I came back toDenver.
The reason I was in Steamboat isbecause my youngest daughter got
in trouble in Ohio with the law,and she came to live with me.

(40:06):
And so she was in school atRoute Aaron Soraco out in Oak
Creek.
Because in my mind, get her outof the city.
Get her away from the drugs, thealcohol, the nonsense.
She's already in trouble.
I need a break.
Let's get out of there.
When she came to live with me, Iwas a week out of West Pines.
I had gone to West Pines and Iwas still shaking, and she came

(40:28):
to live with me, and so I putall the focus on her.
Vanessa disappeared, theclonipin took off, and one thing
after another, that's when thatincident happened.
She stayed with me for a fewyears because I was up there a
couple of years, and then shewent back to Oklahoma or to
Ohio.
Um, I came to Denver, quicklygot right back into the scene.

(40:48):
I didn't want to, but they, thepeople I knew down here, they
were using and drinking, andthey loved that version of me
that did do that, and theyexpected that.
When I wasn't doing that, theydidn't want to have anything to
do with me.
And I had just gone through allthis heartache.
I'd gone through the loss of mychild again.
I had hurt people that I caredabout.
And so I felt the only way thatpeople would love me is if I

(41:10):
stopped loving myself, you know,and I got back into it.
I got released in uh Decemberand I went to prison in August.
So my addiction spiraled out ofcontrol so fast.
Um and I'll touch base on theprison story real quick because
I don't I don't know much aboutit still.

(41:31):
Um I worked for uh thisorganization that owns a bunch
of different bars, restaurants,cafes, and stuff here in in
Denver.
They have since been bought outby Anheuser, and so like you
know, they made a lot of moneyon it.
But beforehand, they had a bunchof things.
And so I pretty much came in todo their events, marketings,
promotions, things of thatnature.

(41:52):
And so, you know, I'd book bandsat one place, I'd book um
artists at another, I would docatering, I would do big events,
I would do all kinds of stuff.
Um, I had a team, you know, thatworked with me, and so each one
of them would kind of dodifferent areas, but I was the
one in charge, and I was the onenetworking with all the liquor
companies or whomever to getsupply for free or whatnot.

(42:14):
So it was a lot, and theaddiction just kept spiraling
out of control because Vanessawas screaming to come out.
I had lost my family at thistime.
None of my kids wanted to talkto me, none of my family wanted
to talk to me.
The only people who did wantedto talk to me if I was using, I
didn't want to use, and I justwanted to be myself.

(42:35):
So I basically was like, Ican't, I can't be Vanessa
because nobody will acceptVanessa, and I can't continue
this lifestyle anymore.
So I decided to end it.
Um, I was putting on a largefundraiser for the children's
hospital.
It was on top of the Davitabuilding here in downtown

(42:56):
Denver.
Um, I mean, it was$1,500 a plateto get in.
I had all these chefs that weredoing certain things, um, a lot
of them from Food Network thatwere there.
Um, I had a lot of communitypartners.
There was a theme, there wasmusic, all of this stuff up on
top of this beautiful um rooftoppatio type of event center.
And all dressed up, I hadalready made up my mind this was

(43:19):
it.
I'm not gonna walk away fromthis.
This will be my last thing, andthen I'm not waking up tomorrow.
So all those bottles that I toldyou about, I had multiple, and I
brought them with me, along withall the other medications that
the doctor had given me to sleepand whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 (43:33):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 (43:34):
And a lot of things that I had picked up off the
streets or got the green roomfrom my friends.
Uh, because I was still playingmusic somewhat, not as much as I
was, because I didn't have thedesire anymore.
I didn't want that identity.
I wanted to break free so Icould be Vanessa, but I didn't
think I could, and that's why Ichose to end it.
Um and so I remember takinganything and everything and

(43:57):
purchasing extra stuff before Iwent and taking that and walking
around with full bottles of uhvodka from one of our sponsors,
you know, because I had cases ofit.
I was like, this is I'm done.
Uh and the last memory I havethat night um was standing at
the Davita building at the onthe rooftop.

(44:18):
And when you're up there,there's like some chairs,
built-in patio furniture, andthere's some like bushes, and
then there's the ledge.
And so like I walked up andstood on the ledge in my suit
and tie, my suspenders, holdingmy bottle, and I'm feeling the
breeze.
You know, it's not a lot ofbreeze, but I'm feeling the
breeze and I'm looking down, Isee traffic below me.
It's everything's below me.

(44:38):
I hear people behind me beinglike, what the half are you
doing up there?
You know, like I didn't care.
And I didn't have the courage tojump.
I don't know why.
That's all I wanted, but Ididn't have the courage to jump,
but I could feel the wind, and Iremember closing my eyes and
just praying that the wind gustwould blow me off.
Um my next memory is waking upuh floating in the river,

(45:03):
downtown Denver, right in frontof the REI.
My head is on the bank, mybody's still wearing a suit and
tie and suspenders and look andfly was floating in the water.
My laptop bag was right in frontof me, and there's runners and
joggers jogging by.
I'm kind of in the bushes, sothey can't really see me.
Dogs are barking, and there'slife going on, and I'm

(45:25):
terrified.
I didn't know what had happened,how I got there, and I was angry
that I was alive.
But my body was so beat downfrom everything that was in my
system.
Plus, apparently I got into aphysical altercation with
multiple people, and so I wasblack and blue, black eyes,
bloody everywhere, um, and justdisheveled.
So I found my way home.

(45:47):
Um, didn't have a phone, didn'thave any money, got home, uh,
passed out, and I probably sleptfor a day.
And I remember waking up,checking my email because I
didn't have a phone, and one ofthe managers that was a good
friend of mine at one of the theestablishments, it was a bar
slash coffee shop type ofenvironment, um, had called me

(46:10):
and said that the police came bylooking for me.
And I was like, oh, so I had noidea what I did.
All I know is I had a black eye,I was beaten up, I'm bleeding,
like cuts everywhere.
I still have scars all over mefrom that night.
I have no idea what hadhappened.
Um, and so I was like, well, Iguess I can't hide from this
anymore.
And I wanted to end it.
So, what better way for me tocontrol this demon in here and

(46:35):
the demon I had become than tojust lock myself up?
So hopped in the shower, wrote anote to my roommate at the time,
left the uh titles for mymotorcycles to him, and was
like, I don't know what's gonnahappen.
Here's a check, here's my stuff.
Um went across the street, spentthe last money I had on alcohol,
and I walked to the nearestpolice station whenever I walked

(46:58):
in there.
Um I'll never forget it.
I walked in and I was like, Ithink you guys are looking for
me.
And the lady behind the desk waslike, What?
What do you I didn't what Yeah,that's the face she gave me.
Yeah.
She's like, Do you have anyidentification?
And I was like, Yeah, sure.
And I handed her my um expireddriver's license because I
didn't know what happened to myother one.

(47:18):
And uh she typed the informationin and her face just lit up.
And she was like, Oh my, wouldyou mind uh sitting down right
there?
We'll have somebody come out foryou in just a moment.
And instantly there was multipleofficers out all on me.
Um they were they were kind inhindsight, but I didn't know

(47:39):
what I did.
I had no idea.
And honestly, I thought I hadgone crazy and I needed them to
lock me up, and I expressedthat.
I was like, I'm out of control.
Please, please help me.
And they were they were kind.
They were until I got to jailand they ran me through.
I didn't know what I was beingarrested for the first day.
I had no idea and I didn't care.
I knew that I was on the rightpath.

(48:01):
And I'll never forget when I wasdetoxing in jail.
The nurse would come in and domy vitals.
I was laying on the floor, theydidn't give me a mattress, they
didn't give me a pillow, Ididn't have a blanket, and
honestly, I didn't care at thattime, but I was fluids were
coming out every hole, and uh Iwould ask for water, I'd ask for

(48:21):
aspirin, and she would come in.
Same nurse overnight, over andover, like every it felt like
every 10 minutes, but she'd comein, I'd ask for that, and she
would say, People like you don'tdeserve to live.
I'm not giving you anything.
And she didn't, she didn't giveme anything.
So I went off the benzos, allthe opiates, all the alcohol
with nothing.

(48:41):
No support, nothing.
And I was ready for it to takeme.
I wanted it to take me.
So I was ready.
And every time I would wake up,I'd be mad.
I'd be mad.
So the next day I got to go tothe judge for the first time,
and his uh charges were long.
I was blown away.

(49:01):
I didn't think any of that couldhave ever been me, because
that's not me that I had everbeen.
Um I could see how it turnedinto that for sure.
But his original charge was for164 years in the Department of
Corrections, and I was ready totake it because I didn't want to

(49:23):
get out and hurt anybody everagain.
When I heard that I had hurt notjust one person, but multiple
people, and I had hurt people inthe past before, and not ever
wanting to, um I wanted it.
And I remember going to sittingdown in front of the the
assigned defender, and I waslike, all right, let's do this.
And she was like, You're out ofyour mind.

(49:43):
Like you're still detoxing.
Go lay down.
I'll come see you in a month andwe'll talk.
And I was like, I'm ready.
Like, let's do this.
Um, when I got in there and wasgoing through my evaluations, I
kept telling everybody I wascrazy because I thought I was.
I was hearing voices, I wasseeing things, all this stuff.
So evaluations after evaluationsafter evaluations, and and me

(50:04):
begging them to never let me outbecause I didn't trust myself.
Um you know, they they theyfinally cleared me after being
months in there.
Um the 164 years went to 60years because I was still on
probation from Steamboat.
And so they they amplifiedeverything.

(50:25):
Um and I was angry because Ididn't I felt that there would
be a chance that I could getout.
And I didn't want that.
Um and I begged for them tofigure out a way to lock me up.
So they sent me on a mentalhealth evaluation because they
were like, if we were to put youin a spot where you'd never get
out, it would be this course.
And I'm like, well, I'm crazy.

(50:45):
Sign me up.
Yes, that's me.
Um and I when I got cleared, Iwas I was angry, I was livid
because they're just like, youguys don't understand how
unstable I am.
This I this isn't real.
What are your guidelines forcrazy?
Because I'm there.
Um and then the proceedings wentreally quick.

(51:06):
I didn't want to sign anythingaway.
And the last time I went infront of the judge, my um
defender had got rid of a lot ofthe charges that were on there
because they were just trying toamplify everything.
And so basically it went down toa very serious assault.
Um, and they gave me 10 years.
And I remember standing in frontof the judge and being like,

(51:28):
You're making a mistake.
This is I will get out, and Idon't want to get out.
Um, I'd never been in jail morethan a few months, and I was in
steamboat.
So I was in a totally differentenvironment.
I'm 23-1.
I was only allowed to get outfor one hour at a time and very
little interaction with otherpeople.
And when I did, fights broke outand it was horrible.

(51:50):
I was terrified, and I knew thatthat was gonna be the rest of my
life.
Um, and when he gave me 10years, I vocalized how upset I
was.
And when I went to prison, I wasmad.
I was angry because I knew atsome point in time that I was
gonna get out, and I kept tryingto think how do I make sure I
never get out of these razorwires again.

(52:13):
I don't want to hurt people, Idon't want to hurt anyone.
And um I just hit I just hidfrom people.
Uh and I'll this is the storythat I generally tell a lot when
I share my stories.
I remember my first yard that Iwent to was on 23-1 still, but I
could at least go to the the gymor something, you know, escorted

(52:35):
to it.
Um I did have a lot ofinteraction.
There was a lot of fights.
I saw things that peopleshouldn't see.
Um my celly uh at the time hadbeen in prison for 47 years at
this time.
47 years he had done at thistime, and he got a letter every
single day.
He got a letter every day fromfamily members that loved him,
from friends, somebody.

(52:56):
He got money on his books, hehad stuff, he had done
something, and we don't talkabout it and say it's not like
the movies where like, what'dyou do, fool?
Nobody says that at all.
They check your paperwork tomake sure it's not something
bad, like it gets a child orwhatnot, but other than that,
they don't care.
Um, and so I never asked, but hehad been in prison for 47 years.

(53:17):
I got a 10-year sentence onsomething that in my mind was
the worst thing you could everdo to anything, anybody in the
world.
And so, how is this person who'sbeen in prison this long?
He's an old guy, uh grumpy, justmean.
Like, how could he get somebodyto love him enough to send him a
letter every day?
And I can't, I haven't had aphone call, I haven't had a

(53:38):
letter.
I at this point in time, it wasprobably like a year and a half
that I had been gone away.
Um and I remember laying thereone day, and I'll never forget
this day at all, because this iskind of a pivotal moment for me,
too, is that I was scaredbecause it was the first time
that I didn't hear a lot ofvoices going on up here.

(53:58):
It was quiet.
It was done, there was novoices, and I was terrified.
I thought that it that was it,the snapping moment, like what's
gonna happen?
I don't know.
Is this me?
I'm losing it.
Vanessa had been, she's gone atthis time.
I couldn't think about heranymore.
It never even surfaced, but Ihear this sound under the door.
It's like shh, just like becausewe're locked in there, you know,

(54:21):
and the sound of mail comingunder.
And I just thought it was theroutine because he'd tell me
about the letters and tell meabout everything.
And he stands up and he's like,You got mail.
And I'm like, What?
Nobody knows I'm here.
Like, what what are you talkingabout?
I have no idea.
Um when I opened it, it wasletters from voices from my

(54:41):
children, basically.
Telling me that my family andeverybody for the first time in
their lives felt safe.
And that they were gonna move onwith their lives and they didn't
have to worry about me anymore.
They didn't have to worry if Iwas gonna be alive or possibly
hurt them, or I don't know, thatthey were done with me and they
were moving on and they had toheal.

(55:02):
Um and that was the hardestthing that I'd ever received in
my entire life, but it was thefirst time that I felt that they
were okay.
I just wanted to take care ofthem my whole time, my life, but
I knew I wasn't.
Because I was being crazy.
Um but I knew I wasn't, and sofor me it was the first time

(55:23):
that uh I could let go a littlebit and be okay with it because
I knew they were safe.
And I was in an environment thatI needed to focus on staying
alive at times.
And that same day, I remembergoing to Chow Hall.
Um, I hated going there, but Iremember going in and some

(55:44):
things popped off on our waythere because we had to go
through the razor wires and thesliders and stuff, and uh a big
fight broke out.
And when you're inside, even ifyou're not involved, whatever
your skin color is, is that youneed to be there to represent
and back up that skin color.
Even though I'm half NativeAmerican, I'm half white.
I look very much like a whiteindividual.

(56:06):
Um, they were always beingtrying to get me to be a part of
them, giving me snacks, like,hey, come hang out with me, come
do this.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, Idon't want to live right now.
I don't care about you or me oranyone else.
Um and so that happened, andthey're yelling at me, you know,
the the different skin tones aregetting together and fighting

(56:26):
each other, and they're like,get over here.
And I remember standing there,and an old older gentleman put
his hand on my chest, and he'slike, They don't give a f about
you, they don't care about you,don't you dare go over there.
He's like, the only thing inhere that matters is your name
and number right here.
And he tapped my shirt and hewas like, the only thing that
matters in this world and thenin here is your number.

(56:47):
You, you do your number, don'tworry about anything else.
Hey, just got that letter,processing that.
I mean, this is probably an houror so afterwards, hearing this
individual say, it's time foryou to do you and not worry
about what other people arethinking.
Um, and so I did.
I mean, they they sprayed gaseverywhere.
I breathed in the maze.
It was horrible, my eyes aremurdered.

(57:08):
Um, but um, I went back.
And a few days later, the firsttime I get to go to anything, I
go to the gym and I'm trying tojust walk and do stuff.
And somebody I'd kind of madefriends with came up to me and
he's like, Hey, are you going toAA tonight?
And I was like, No, you what iswrong with you?
Like, I don't want to liveanymore.
Why would I want to bettermyself?

(57:30):
Um and he's like, You get out ofyour cell for an extra hour.
Okay, I would do that.
I, you know, I've been in here,I don't want to be next to my
grumpy celly anymore, and he'smean.
And so um I signed up to go toAA just to get out of my cell.
That's it.
That is it.
Um and I walked in there and Iremember sitting down and like,

(57:52):
I don't want to be here.
There's only like four or fivepeople.
This is just depressing.
And this kid, he's a young kid,and he looks like he's come from
money, he's got money behindhim, glasses, smart looking,
just intelligent, and he'stelling his story, and he starts
crying, he's telling it, tellingit, telling it.
And the whole time he's tellingit, he's telling my story.

(58:13):
The whole music side, the wholecorporate trainer side, like all
of this stuff.
Oh my gosh, my light just wentaway.
I stood up.
Anyway, all of this is comingout, you know, very different
upbringings, but very similarstory.
And the only difference betweenhis and mine is that my victim
survived, his didn't.
And he's never, ever leavingthat environment.

(58:36):
And he was in tears.
And I'm just like, this personis trying to better his life in
an environment that he willnever get out of.
What is wrong with you?
Like, you you can do something,you are gonna get out of.
You might not, you're not gonnabe young and spry anymore,
you're gonna be an old person,but like think about things

(58:58):
differently.
So, all this is happening, theletter, the individual with my
number, the that kid.
I still think about that kid alot.
It it it made me start thinkingdifferently, and I did.
And I remember my first step wasI started doing yoga because I'd
always wanted to, and I thoughtit'd be a way to connect with
myself.
And every time we would walk bythe people doing yoga, the other

(59:21):
inmates were mean and banging onthe window and talking shit to
them on the yard and all thisstuff, but I was like, I need to
do it.
And so I started doing it.
I remember the first time that Isat in meditation long enough to
where I was okay with sittingwith myself, I just broke down
and I'm bawling and I'm cryingand I made a breakthrough.
And so I dove into yoga, whichhelped me look at myself

(59:44):
differently, start to get rid ofthe ego, be accepting of where I
was, who I was.
I was calm now, I was doingbetter, I felt better, and it
helped my recovery journey.
I was connecting in the roomsnow.
I was able to be like, oh mygosh, I am.
An addict.
I am an alcoholic.
Wait, hold on a second.
Yoga was the piece that changedit for me.

(01:00:05):
And it really was that piece ofsetting with myself and start to
working on the ego.
So much that when I went down incustody levels, I was teaching
yoga.
I got my yoga certification.
So when I'd go to a newfacility, I would teach a yoga
class all over the place.
And so I was kind of known aslike, oh, you're the yoga
instructor type of thing.
And then I got on the wildlandfirefighting crew.

(01:00:28):
And I became the squad lead.
I did that for two years.
I learned a whole lot ofdiscipline.
And on the I mentioned thatbecause at one of the fires, I
was on the Cameron Peak Fire inFort Collins.
And when you're on a fire,there's no police officers
there.
There's no DOC personnel.
There's firefighting crew bossesthat stay in the buggy miles and
miles and miles away.

(01:00:49):
And me as the squad leadertaking these individuals out
into the wild.
I'm in charge.
And I'm one of them.
How can I set myself above oneof them if I'm not the key
holder of a yard?
I will never forget that we wereon a fire, that fire, and we
went up over this mountain toclear this area to where all
these houses were justdestroyed.

(01:01:10):
And we were cold trailing it,making sure all the fire was
out.
And uh I put them on a break.
And that's when they pull outall this alcohol and cigarettes
that the other fire crews hadgiven to them.
Because nobody knows who we are.
We look just like them.
We are another fire crew when weare in the camps.
And so they're breaking it out.
They're drinking and they'resmoking.
And I'm like, oh my God.
So I just walk away.

(01:01:31):
I go look at this burnt boat.
And this group of Serranios cameup to me and uh was like, yo,
you need to drink this.
If not, then we know you'regonna tell on us.
Basically, they didn't say thatword for word.
That's that's saying gang slay.
Uh I was like, no, I'm not gonnado it.
I'm not gonna do it.

(01:01:51):
And we all have we have axes, wehave knives, we have weapons
with us.
We're carrying chainsaws.
And one of them put an axe rightup to my neck and said, if you
don't do this, we're gonna takecare of it.
And I said, I can't.
I'm I won't let it affect myrecovery.
And when I said recovery, Imeant where I was.
I mean, I didn't realize it atthat point in time, but I felt

(01:02:14):
good.
I loved life.
I wanted to live, I wanted to dosomething better with my life.
I I wasn't scared anymore, butVanessa still wasn't there.
I was contemplating when I gotout of prison, it's a fresh
start.
That would be a good time.
But on the inside, I gotta workon doing some bench press, like,
you know, even the severage up,which I did.
And so I didn't do it.

(01:02:35):
And they got up in my face andthey're like, we'll handle this
when we get back to the art.
When we got back to the facilitylike a week later, sure enough,
as soon as we walked, droppedour stuff off, they rushed to my
room, closed the door, kepttech, and I thought this was it.
And I remember the guy who wasupset with me got up in my face
and he was like, Yo, homie.
I do remember he said that, yo,homie.

(01:02:58):
It's like I got mad respect foryou.
You didn't back down, and I'mglad that you didn't mess up
your recovery.
Gave me a hug, and then I workedout with him.
I was part of the crew, like Iran on the jack with him.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:11):
I did not see that going that way, by the way, at
all.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:14):
I was ready.
I mean, honestly, at that pointin time, I was like, well, this
is it.
This is where it ends.
I'm okay with it because I'm ata point in my life to where I
finally am okay with living.
I love myself at this point intime.
I don't love the environment I'min, but I'm making the best out
of it.
I'm learning how to do this.
And honestly, it was great forme at that point in time.

(01:03:34):
And uh so yeah, I rememberalmost pooping myself.
It's just like, okay, they'reall hugging me and giving fives,
and they're like, yo, yeah,we're gonna go do burpees here
in a little bit.
Come with us.
And I'm like, okay.
You know, and so it changed thedynamics.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:50):
They had mad respect, which got me a lot of
respect from a lot of otherpeople.
And then the last fire I was onwas the Hans Peak fire in
Steamboat.
And I got paroled while I was onthat fire, and they came and
picked me up from the fire, tookme so I could get a shower, and
I was terrified.
I didn't want to get paroled.

(01:04:11):
I didn't want to get out, Iwasn't ready.
I had found comfort where I was.
Um, I even told that to theparole board, I'm not ready.
I don't want to leave.
And they were like, okay, cool,you're getting out of here.
So I've learned that if you'regoing in front of a judge, tell
them you want a strictersentence, they'll give you a
less.
No kidding.
And which is what happened tome.
When you go in front of theparole board, be like, no, I'm

(01:04:31):
not ready.
I don't want to go out there.
And they're like, cool, get out.
Um, I think because of my mywork I did on the fire crew for
two years, that uh, because Iwasn't eligible for parole for
many years, especially with aviolent crime, but I had got a
lot of respect and I had a lotof people write notes as in like
officers and whatnot for me.

(01:04:53):
And so I was paroled after fouryears of being in the Department
of Corrections, which is unheardof for my case.
Um I came to the real worldscared because I was afraid
things were gonna go right backto where it was.
And but I was kind of excitedbecause I had seen people
transition inside, and I waslike, I can do that when I get

(01:05:16):
out.
There's hormones.
I didn't know there's hormones.
You know, that's where like Ididn't think there now there's
more than just drag queens.
There is a a person.
There's other things, yeah.
Yes.
And so I was ready to do it.
I got paroled, went to my first,I got paroled to a sober living,
actually.
And it's so funny.
My probation officer opened thedoor and was like, sit down on

(01:05:36):
this couch and wait until themanager gets here.
Don't move.
I sat on that couch for eighthours because my house manager
was at work, and that was justthe discipline and the
environment that I came from.
You know, if the CEO told me tosit down, I sit down.
And so I sat there without usingthe bathroom, without doing
anything.
And then he comes in and I'mlike, may I use the restroom?
And he's a house manager tosober living.

(01:05:57):
He's just another dude.
I didn't know that.
I had no idea.
And he's like, Who are you?
Yeah, go P.
What's wrong with you?
Um and so here I am in the realworld, ready to become Vanessa.
I'm ready to do it.
I was saving money to get out ofsober living.
I was working a job, just makingmoney.
And then I started working intreatment.

(01:06:18):
Um and when I worked intreatment, I started as a tech
and I started connecting withpeople, especially those who had
been to prison or dealt withsimilar situations.
Um, I still carried my prison IDand I was like, I get it, I
understand.
And then they would be like,wait, what?
You?
Um, and so I was helping changelives for other people, which

(01:06:40):
meant Vanessa's got to go awaybecause they're not gonna want
Vanessa.
They're gonna want this image ofthis person who runs Spartan
races and you know is at the gymsix days a week and does all
this stuff.
So I hit her and pushed heraway, kept climbing the
corporate ladder and treatment,you know, moved up to multiple
director roles and was doingwell and getting a

(01:07:01):
well-respected name in thecommunity.
And so I'm like, I can't finallythe first time in my life, I'm
giving back, doing somethingwell.
I'm not creating an identityjust based off of what people
want.
I'm myself and people love me.
And it was Vanessa had to go,but she was really wanting to
come out then because I didn'thave booze and other substances

(01:07:23):
to hide her, to scare her awayor push her away.
So my mental health startedstruggling.
At that point in time, myroommate whom I lived with, uh
good, good friend of mine, wasactually on the wildland
firefighting crew with me on theinside, and we got out, we
stayed connected, we worked outtogether, we did all of these
intense uh runs and whatnottogether.

(01:07:44):
We supported each other'srecovery journey.
When we moved in together, hereturned to use, and it got
worse and worse and worse.
Um, I was the director ofbusiness development and um
admissions at the treatmentcenter.
And so, you know, I kneweverybody.
I could call him up and be like,hey, I need your help.
He's got this insurance.
What can you do?
They would put him in there evenif they didn't have open spots.

(01:08:05):
They'd move him in top of theline, which I hate that they did
that, but I needed it at thattime.
Right.
And I would get him intolocations over and over and over
again, and he'd fight him.
I'd literally fight him and getkicked out, or the police would
bring him back to our doorstep,or I'd pick him up from jail, or
whatnot.
Um, and it tore me apart it thathe was five feet away from me,

(01:08:28):
and I couldn't help him.
And that was my role in thecommunity was to help people.
And um I would wake up in themorning, he'd be at the bottom
of our stairs in a pool ofblood.
You know, I would miss workbecause I'm calling the
ambulance and dealing with that,and we would have these
heartfelt conversations, justbawling and and you know,
together, and I couldn't doanything.

(01:08:50):
Um, that was messing with mymental health.
Vanessa was coming out.
My partner at the time, mygirlfriend at the time, had just
lost her sister, and they werevery close, and so I wanted to
be there for her.
At this point in time, I hadalready set a date with my my
therapist that I was going tobecome Vanessa because I saw it
was messing with my mentalhealth, and I was afraid I was

(01:09:11):
gonna go back to that time whenI was standing on top of the
Davita building, and I didn'twant to hurt other people ever
again.
And so I'd already set a date, Iwas pushing through it, all of
these things happened, and allthese signs were coming up that
I knew that if I didn't work onit, I was gonna go back to my
old ways and I was gonna erasemy existence or hurt other

(01:09:32):
people.
I was gonna use, I wasdefinitely gonna go back.
Um and so I set the date, Imuscled through it, and I was
ready to lose everything.
I was ready to lose all thestuff that I had built up.
And you were there when I youwere one of the first people
that I was just like, if I'mgonna do it, I gotta freaking do
it.

(01:09:52):
Um it's terrifying, it scared meto death.
It still does in certain areas.
Um, but I knew that if I wasgoing to do it, I had to not
care what other people thought.
It's first time in my life, youknow, I'm working on my kids
being back, it's makingprogress, but that was a lot of
damage.
Family, same thing.

(01:10:13):
You know, it's it's hardwhenever I feel like they never
really wanted me in the firstplace, and here I am trying to
beg them back.
But I need that thoseconnections, and I I want, I
love it.
So when I became Vanessa, 48years into this journey, I just
had to be me and deal with theconsequences.

(01:10:35):
I've gone through some stuff.
Prison changed me.
So I was ready for everything togo away again.
Um, but it hasn't.
It's been the most beautiful,loving, accepting journey that
I've ever been on.
Part of me wishes that I wouldhave done it sooner, but I'm
glad that I didn't because Ineeded to be where I was, who I

(01:10:57):
was before I did it.
And it's just it's it's beenmagical.
The image you see of me beingmyself is like freedom.
You know, I just get to be me nomatter what.
Of course there's haters.
Haters be hating, but uh I Itruly love myself, which just

(01:11:17):
allows me to love everyone else.
I see things differently.
I mean, I see so much joy in thelittle things now.
Uh it's magical.
Um, and I get to meet beautifulpeople like you who actually see
me, which is the most importantthing to me, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:39):
Yeah.
I know a lot of people who arebig fans of Vanessa.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:45):
They're just they just like the craziness.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:48):
No, but it's so you're so, you know.
I when I met you, you weren'tVanessa yet.
And I wasn't a huge fan.
And I I don't I just wasn't.
Like it was fine, you know.
I knew working together andwhatnot.
And um then when I got to meetVanessa, it was like who is

(01:12:14):
this?
You know, like it was such adifferent experience, and not
just and and I don't know whatgoes into the back end of all of
the the parts of becoming andletting yourself become that,
but you're such a light, youknow, and I I mean that so
wholeheartedly.

(01:12:36):
Um and also I don't know in thismoment if I'm gonna release
video or audio, but if I am onlyreleasing audio, please know I
cried through most of this.
I cried through most of thisstory.
Um and I'm still crying.
But I think to just feel whereyou were so trying to find you

(01:12:59):
for so many years in what feelslike a pinball machine, and just
getting bounced around bothinternally and externally in
every version of the environmentthat you've been in, and then
knowing that you caused harm inthe process of trying to figure
out your own stuff, um andfeeling all of the remorse and

(01:13:21):
resentment and pain that comeswith that, right?
And then getting to you know, Idon't I don't like to say the
other side because I we allnever arrive and we're all still
going through things, but togetting to the point where I
think where the moment of youchoosing yourself in recovery,
right?

(01:13:42):
And the in that fire and knowingthat you're risking something in
choosing that, but you can't goback to the other thing that's
worse.
And then the way that story tooka change of people who you were
expecting to just and like sortof what I love so much is the

(01:14:02):
moment of surrender of like,okay, like I chose, I know I
chose the right thing, even ifthis is you know, this is gonna
be not good.
And that the response wasrespect.
And because what it does is itgives you a moment of confidence
that you choosing you can have abeautiful outcome, even in the

(01:14:25):
messiness of how that allseemed.
And then watching you over thenext few years take more steps
and more steps in the face of Idon't know how this is going to
go.
And I don't know that this isgoing to receive be received
well at all.
But so far, everything else I'vetried didn't go well.

(01:14:48):
And so many variations of thatthat I'm gonna choose me.
And that when you finally did,and again, that doesn't mean
that there's not still manymessy parts to this process, and
I want to acknowledge thatbecause that's still ongoing and
true, and still things I knowyou're growing and learning
through and becoming.
But so much of the part of youthat I've gotten to experience

(01:15:12):
is looks nothing like the storythat you just told me.
You know, and Vanessa that Iknow her to be is kind and
confident and so just willing tojump in and be on a team and say
yes and help and give and andyou know tear apart the trees to

(01:15:32):
make it happen so that we canhelp other people.
You know, and that's that's somuch of what I know you as.
And one of the reasons I made alist when I made the podcast of
people I wanted to ask, and youwere one of the first people I
put on it.
Because it's so honest.
Right?
It doesn't mean it was easy, butyour willingness to turn and

(01:15:56):
face the whole truth and yourstruggles with that, and then
keep choosing like the nextthing, even when it was hard and
scary, and even when you didn'tknow and the feeling I think of
knowing that you didn't everwant to hurt people as part of
this process, and really you'rejust trying to find yourself.

(01:16:18):
Yeah, that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:20):
Um thank you.
I have I have so much respectfor you, and it means a lot
coming from anyone, especiallythose that I respect.
It's funny, I didn't reallyrealize it until you had
mentioned it, but yeah, when wefirst met, I had already that
was in August.
So in January of that year iswhen I had set the date with my

(01:16:43):
therapist that the followingJanuary, February is when I was
gonna come out, and I had a yearof working on it.
So there was a lot of fear.
There was a lot of other thingsgoing on.
My roommate, myself, loss ofidentity, and here I am starting
this new journey with people,and I'm like, I don't know how,
I don't know if I can deal withthis.

(01:17:04):
So I was not at a happy point inmy life, and I was realizing
that I was putting more focus onyou know, my girlfriend and my
roommate than myself, and therewas this internal battle inside,
and I was terrified about comingout.
I was terrified about comingout.
I was afraid that I was gonnalose it all, but you you're

(01:17:28):
exactly right.
It really goes back to thatmoment, you know, that I
experienced inside of prison.
I was terrified of that momenttoo.
It's very similar.
It was very similar, but I knewthat no matter what, I had to be
whom I wanted to be.
I had to be this live the lifethat I knew that I wanted to be.
I didn't I didn't care what wasgonna happen, and I was really

(01:17:51):
willing to have my life end overthe person that I knew that I
was gonna be.
And I know that I cannot use anysubstances.
I know that I have to focus onmy mental health.
I know I have to stand up forwho I believe I am, ask for
help, and go through the tough,tough things.
I mean, a lot of people haven'texperienced that, and I don't I

(01:18:12):
don't need that.
That was my journey.
And even working in the recoverycommunity, I still kind of carry
some of that with me.
You know, I'm it's okay to havethose tough conversations.
And I will call you out on it,but I will not as much as I
possibly can and I'll supportyou.
And like that's what I needed.
That's exactly what I needed,and I still need that because

(01:18:33):
there's times to where I mean, II still struggle.
It's hard sometimes in thecommunity when every time when I
walk into a gas station and youknow somebody says something, or
like even at the concert I wasat last night, people were
saying things from time to time.
Um, and it's it's a journey thatI'm so happy I'm on.

(01:18:56):
I'm gonna go through the toughtimes, just like in our recovery
tourney.
We have tough times, and it'ssomething that I'm uh love, that
I'm honored to be a part of, andI know no matter what, it's the
right choice.
Well, that's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 (01:19:14):
And it's also you know, when you make changes like
that, you there's people thatyou lose.
Right?
There's people that many of ushave lost in choosing something
different, something that's truefor us, and they can't come with
us even as much as we might wantthem to.

(01:19:34):
And with that, like as much asyou know, recovery has community
and you know, LGBTQ IA2S plus.
Is that do right?
But all of that community has somuch that comes with it.
Like that's so beautiful.
And I always talk about theimportance of community, of

(01:19:57):
having a person to pick up thephone and that can like because
people might not alwaysunderstand you, but to hold
space for you and like just tosee you and let you be you,
right?
And how massively important thatis.
But also, and along with thatcan come loneliness, right?
Like heavy is the head thatwears the crown.

(01:20:19):
And sometimes I have thought inmy own journey and aspirations
of what I want, but also seenpeople on different parallel
journeys or just differentjourneys altogether, that the
road that you have walked andthe road that you continue to
walk is incredible, empowerful,impactful, and can also be

(01:20:41):
lonely.
You know, when there's not a lotof people that can see and
understand all of the aspects ofthe things that you have gone
through.
And to continue choosing that,being aware of that and getting
support when and where you needto, whether it's therapy, right?
Literally traditional therapy ofdifferent forms or recovery

(01:21:02):
communities or othercommunities, any kind of just
support that you get to makesure that you keep working on
how important it is for you tobe okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:13):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
It's so true.
Um, it's interesting.
And when I was working in in thefor-profit industry, I remember
one of the clinical directorscoming to me and talking about
how like it's it's they've beenin the industry for so long.
They started it's this, this,and this.
And it's hard for them to go tocertain fellowships or certain
rooms because they were inrecovery, you know, because

(01:21:33):
people that they had met alongthe way or had helped or had
worked with, and so theystruggled to find safe places.
And, you know, I was able toconnect them with certain places
that are for those individualswho work in that environment.
Um and I never really thoughtabout it, you know, until fast
forward years later, and andsometimes that I would need a

(01:21:54):
moment to go into a room andshare something or say something
that was personal, and I wouldbe there with people that I had
had direct service work withbefore, and I couldn't.
And so I started to strugglewith it.
And fast forward to where I'm atnow.
Yeah, when Vanessa came out,like I said, I came out with a
rock.
You truly were one of the firstones there.

(01:22:15):
Because I didn't I didn't wantto hinder myself.
I wanted to spread, you know, Iwanted to.
You're gonna do it, you know.
Yeah, I'm gonna do it.
And um you're right.
I started to gain this respectand connection, and people
recognize you can't miss me,right?
You recognize me.

(01:22:36):
And so now when I do go tocertain rooms and stuff, I am
seeing people that I used to betheir coach, or I used to be
their boss, or I used to besomething, and I'm just like,
gosh, can't say anything here.
I need to do this.
So sometimes I also just want togo where people don't know me.
And that I love where I'm atright now, but that's truly

(01:22:59):
becoming more and more and moreof a thing.
I mean, gosh, even yesterday atthe festival that I went to, I
hadn't even walked throughsecurity when there were
security guards coming up to me,the person checking the bags,
people that were coming up andlike, oh my gosh, thank you so
much.
Or yes, I love it.
I love it, I love it.
We hadn't even made it to theporta potties and I had already

(01:23:20):
taken selfies with so manypeople that were on the let me
take a selfie with you.
I love it so, so much.
And I just want to be there withthem on their journey and show
that, you know, all thesethings.
But sometimes, yeah, like I'mgonna go to a restaurant and not
be seen.
I like going to things to whereit's outside of the recovery

(01:23:41):
community and stuff to wherenobody knows me.
And I don't have to.
Um I don't want to like, I don'tknow, hide in the fringe, if you
will, because I get to want tobe myself.
But yeah, there are times towhere I'm just like, you know,
I'm I just want to go and havesome coffee with my roommate,

(01:24:01):
you know, and not worry aboutit.
But more and more and more whenI think I'm in an environment
where I'm not gonna knowanybody, I'll go to Applebee's.
We did here recently, and theywere like, And I'm like, oh my
god.
Um it's great.
I love it, but yeah, you'reexactly right.
So I'm I'm I'm pivoting on thatthat change right now.

(01:24:23):
Like, where am I able tocontinue this?
I do have my my self-carejourneys, um, our activities.
I have a hard time withboundaries right now.
Not necessarily setting them,but being able to have them come
to fruition from the work that Ido.

(01:24:45):
Um you know, I set boundarieswith my boss on a daily basis,
but it it still doesn't come tofruition.
Um there's there's a lot ofstruggle on that end.
But personally, yeah, it's it'sit's becoming a point to where
like I gotta find those nooksand crannies to where I can get
away for a minute.
My Harley, I talk about it allthe time, but that truly is

(01:25:07):
where I can put my helmet on, Iput music on, I can't get phone
calls, I can't get textmessages, I can just go ride,
it's loud, it makes me happy,but I'm by myself.
I'm there.
I can go to the mountains, I cango wherever.
Um, with the work that I do, thetime to do that is closing more
and more and more, so I don'tget to do it as often.

(01:25:30):
Um, so you know, I still have myspecial people that I talk to,
that I reach out to, that I textor call, but I'm like, Yeah, we
all need that.
Here's something.
Um, all of this is because Ilearned it throughout this
process, and kind of like lastyear when or two years ago, I
don't even know, when I met you,it was two years ago, yeah.

(01:25:51):
Um that those warning signs werethere.
Like it was all happening.
I could see it, I could feelmyself sliding, I could feel
myself retracting and gettingsnippy and grumpy and just not
happy.
And I knew all of those signs,if I didn't reach out to my
sponsor, if I didn't reach outto my therapist, if I didn't do

(01:26:11):
all of this stuff, and if Ididn't commit to what I put my
word on, then it was gonna fallapart.
So the closer I was getting tothat date that I had set, I was
like, oh, I have to be a personof my word.
I have to do this no matter howhard it, no matter how much I
want to back out and makeexcuses and be like, oh, I
can't, because what we do.

(01:26:33):
I had to do it because I'velearned that in my journey.
And so doing that, sometimesgoing through the hard things
puts me in situations like now.
You nailed it.
Like sometimes it's hard for meto hide away.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:49):
Not that I want to often, but there are No, but
it's also like valid that youlike you are a person that you
do a lot.
And there's especially us doersthat like to be in things and
create things and build thingsand be a part of things and say
yes because we can and we wantto give back that part of like

(01:27:10):
practicing also saying no andunderstanding that doesn't mean
you're a bad person.
It doesn't mean you're not a bademployee or a bad friend or a
bad anything, but that yourequire like those reset moments
to take care of yourself becauseotherwise you end up in a lot of
chaos.
And chaos can be, you know,being busy is wonderful in many

(01:27:30):
aspects, but sometimes it's it'sso loud that you don't hear
other things, right?
So finding is still something Iwork on, is like is just when do
I say yes and when do I say no?
You know?

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:42):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:43):
Um, but I have one question also before we wrap up.
I uh people always ask like, ifyou could tell yourself
something when you're young,what would you say?
And I hate this question becauseI the me then couldn't have
heard anything that I would say.

SPEAKER_02 (01:28:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:00):
So it's I get it and I understand the point of the
question, but I it never feelstrue to me because the things I
would say, that version of mecouldn't have heard or
understood, even if, you know.
So a question I want to ask youis what do you need to hear the
most right now for you?

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:18):
Oh my gosh.
I I love that you said thatbecause again, we get asked that
question all the time.
And I my initial response isexactly what you said.
It's like that knucklehead wouldhave no, huh?
You didn't want to talk to thatknucklehead.
And very much so in my recoverytourneys, you know, the old

(01:28:39):
timers, as I like to call them,and now I'm an old timer, is
they would say things to me thatI'm like, you stop, don't talk
to me like that.
What are you saying?
You don't even know what you'retalking about, you know.
That's just it's a differenttime, man.
But it really rings true and itsticks with me and stuff, you
know, little corny sayings,we're gonna love you till you

(01:29:00):
love yourself, all those things.
If I was to tell myself in thepast, if I was to be able to
sneak a message back there, isthat basically like, oh gosh,
how would I put this in words?
You need to go through whatyou're gonna go through.
That it's not gonna be easy, butyou need to do it.

(01:29:20):
I think that kind of might haveresonated with me a little bit
because life wasn't easy backthen.
You know, never was, ever.
Yeah.
Not having money, not having thecool shoes, not having a family,
not having guarantee of whatschool or home I was gonna be
in.
It was I was taught that it wasgonna be hard from a long time.
I was just always looking for anescape.

(01:29:41):
But now if I knew that it'sgonna just grow through that
tough time, keep going, make thebest out of it regardless.
Even when I was in prison, youmake the best out of it.
And I made the best out of it,and I loved it.
The time.

SPEAKER_00 (01:29:55):
Yes, yes, and I love that.
But what I also want to know iswhat do you Vanessa right now to
hear from you.
It's real oh, that's the samething.
I love that.
Because it's it's true.
And as I keep, right?
And we both do this, where welean into something and we say
yes, and I want to grow and Iwant to change and I wanna, you
know.
And some of it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:17):
It is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:18):
And sometimes I get the thing that I think I want,
and it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:22):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:24):
Shit, this comes along with other things.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:27):
Yes.
No, I I need to hear that nowtoo, because I mean, even though
I'm in recovery and I'm about tocelebrate eight years of
sustained recovery of substancesand alcohols, you know, my
mental health journey startedlater.
But I still struggle withthings.
And here recently, you know,somebody totaled my car, and you
know, all of these things kepthappening, life things kept

(01:30:48):
happening.
My Facebook got blocked, butit's interesting.
That's a different story for adifferent time as to why it was
offline.

SPEAKER_00 (01:30:53):
We'll talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:54):
It's because of attacks on transgender.
I had to do a lot of fightingfor it, but I got it back.
Yes, I I get a lot of hate mail.
I get a lot of negativemessages, I get a lot of stuff,
but that's besides the point.
But life still throws things atyou.
Life still does stuff.
And one of the things for me islike the things that are out of
my control, those are easier tohandle for me.

(01:31:17):
Like it sucks.
I get it.
You know, I should have had gapinsurance.
I should have had this, youknow, like I get it.
I learned from the world.
Like you can own it, right.
The ones that are hard for me toswallow is, you know, life still
brings up who I used to be.
As in the felony thing comes upquite a bit.
Um, you know, the the old personcomes up quite a bit.

(01:31:38):
I could not tell you how manytimes I've got approached for
career positions.
Um, because of the work that Ido and the people that they see
me and they're like, oh my gosh,we will do this.
Just like the position I holdnow, you know, the director came
to me and was like, we willcreate what you want.
What do you want?
Let's build a position for you.
Let's get you there.

(01:31:59):
And I was able to do that.
And I have people do that to menow, still on a daily basis.
Last Friday I did a stand-upcomedy show.
Um, and right before I went on,a position that was being
curated for me, having knownthat I had a felony record,
having known all of this stuff,um, something that I really
wanted to be a part of becauseit's in the LGBTQ community, and

(01:32:22):
it was gonna cause me to havemore free time.
All this last minute came to meand was like, your record, we
can't offer you this.
We're gonna rescind it.
It happens to me all the time.
So those are the harder ones forme because that was not the
person that I knew I was I everwas, but I have to deal with

(01:32:45):
those.
I have to own up to those are mychoices.
I did every bit of that.
I hurt those individuals.
I hurt myself, I hurt my family,I hurt my community.
And you know, here it is almosteight years later.
Eight years is nothing comparedto the 30-some years of
destruction that I love.
Those are the times to wherethose are the hard ones that I
need to hear.

(01:33:05):
That advice that I would havegiven to my old person is like,
you gotta go through this hardstuff, even though it it sucks
because you do deserve thosepositions.
You do deserve this, theseaccolades.
You know, you you do deservethis, but there's gonna be some
more time to get through whereyou're at right now.
I completely understand, butthose are the harder peels to
swallow than when somebodysideswipes you take your car

(01:33:28):
out.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:29):
Well, have you how are you on forgiveness work?

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:34):
For myself?

SPEAKER_00 (01:33:35):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:37):
That truly, and that's one of the things that I
talk about a lot too whenever Ishare my story or I do my
speaking engagements, is thatthat was truly one of the more
pivotal moments is when I had tostart to begin to like myself.
It's easier to forgive otherpeople.
I've I've forgiven myself forwhat I've done.
And that was years ago, and Istill have to remind myself that

(01:34:00):
it's always going to be aforgiving.
You know, you those livingamends, it's also towards
myself, too, 100%.
No, I've I've I did that beforeI even started working in the
industry.
So the forgiveness piece, it washard.
You know, I I always share a lotof times too.
If you would have seen me yearsago, I used to have dreads.
I was horrible because I didn'twant to look at myself in the

(01:34:22):
mirror from that hatred that Ihad for myself.
I even told the story the othernight at a at an event that I
ripped the mirrors off the wallsin my apartment so I wouldn't
have to.
The bar I worked at, I knewwhere the bottles were, so I
didn't have to graze the mirror.
I could just reach back and grabthe grandma.
You know, I didn't have to lookat it because I didn't want to
see this.
And whenever I started to loveand forgive myself is when I

(01:34:44):
could look in the mirror again.
And now you can't stop me fromlooking the mirror, but the
forgiveness piece was and stillis there.
And I truly do forgive myselffor the destruction that was
Leland.
It's so weird to say that name.

SPEAKER_00 (01:35:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I forgot it until the fountainthing the other day, and I was
like, what the hell?
Oh, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:12):
It happens all the time.
I will randomly call somebody,be like, hey, hey, I haven't
talked to you in a little while.
And they're like, oh my gosh,this name popped up.
Like changing.
Yeah.
And even yesterday, that was myscene.
You know, like I was saying, inthe music industry that I ran
into so many people I used toplay music with.
I ran into people that had myalbums.

(01:35:32):
You know, I ran into people thatwere wearing my old band
t-shirts, and like they didn'tknow who I was.
A lot of them weren't.
It was just discussion that washappening.
And I was like, hey, youremember me when I was a dude.
Yeah.
But that is the environmentthat, you know, I thought I had
to be this certain image forpeople to like me.
And here I am, completelydifferent.

(01:35:54):
It a totally different person.
And I was getting the same exactlove that I was then on a
different scale.
And I don't have to try to hidebehind an identity that I wasn't
was.
I mean, that's I I don't need topretend anymore, but it was just
so it was amazing walking aroundto people being like, hey, did
you know a guy named Leland?

(01:36:14):
And they'd be like, Yeah, it wasa good great paper or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (01:36:17):
It was like that's really funny.
You know, like, hi, it's me.
Um, I'm better.
Yeah.
Um, I'm curious if you when you,because I know you talk to
people about this, but if youwere to give advice to someone
that is where you used to be,specifically in the identity

(01:36:39):
part of the story.
What would you what's the bestadvice to give someone who finds
themselves in that any any partof that story, whether it's just
questioning things or not sureabout things or thinking you're
crazy, or you know, there's alot of different aspects to
that, but finding themselves inthe place of where they don't

(01:37:00):
don't feel that they can tellthe whole truth about who they
are.
What's the best what's the best?
What do you got?

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:08):
I mean That's your heavy qu that's a great
question.
And I have to I have to say thatbecause all of that work that I
put into as my former self, Inever made connections in the
LGBTQ plus community.
You know, I knew people.
I have friends and I love them,truly love them and support
them, but I don't know whattheir journey is.

(01:37:29):
I don't know what the lettersand numbers and stuff are.
I'm learning, but as thatindividual that I, you know,
explained and created an imageof who I used to be, we didn't
have connections with that.
Um, you know, the rainbowcolors, the community, I knew
they existed.
And from my perspective, I lovepeople for who they are.

(01:37:52):
Again, I never wanted to getconnected because I didn't think
that that was me.

unknown (01:37:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:57):
Because I was ignorant of what the definition
was.
There wasn't a lot around me.
And even when I did get intoenvironments where there were, I
wasn't in the state of mind toconnect, working in the
treatment industry.
You know, we we would haveindividuals come in, but when
they ask for resources, like,where do I go from here?
Or who do I talk to while I'mhere because I don't feel

(01:38:20):
comfortable being in that groupover there?
You know, I was always like, ohmy gosh, I didn't think of that.
I don't know.
And then the prison mindsetwould suck in like, suck it up,
get in there.
What do you do?
I would try to be helpful asmuch as I could, but I didn't go
out of my way.
I was too afraid that, and itseems silly, but like if I

(01:38:40):
connected myself in any sort ofway, people would see Vanessa
inside, and I wasn't ready forpeople to see Vanessa, or they
would start questioning mymasculinity, if you will.
And I didn't have thoseresources.
When I became Vanessa and I shotout like a rocket and people saw
me, the very first sets ofquestions really changed from
that recovery side to theidentity side.

(01:39:01):
And I would get off stage fromshoot, you know, speaking at
something, and family memberswould come up and be like, My my
daughter or my son just saidthey want to start
transitioning, or they have beentransitioning for a while, or
they're afraid, you know, inbuilding up to the election
time, like it it increased.
It went I didn't haveconversations of

(01:39:23):
recovery-related stuff.
It all shifted and focused.
Therapists were calling me,clinical directors are calling
me, people are calling me allover, like I have an individual,
or I have a family member, or Ihave this and that.
And so I wasn't the person toreach out to for the recovery
resources.
It switched over to like, oh, Iknow a transgender individual

(01:39:43):
who's out there like raging itright now.
Yeah.
Ask them.
And when they would, I didn'thave the resources.
I didn't have anything.
And I'd always hear familymembers talking to me and
telling me, like, oh my gosh,you know, I love my child, I
love them, but I don't know whatto do.
And I'm like, you're alreadyleaps and bounds ahead of where
I was because I don't have thatfamily support.

(01:40:04):
That right there in itself isgoing to set them apart from a
lot of us.
Because what I found in myjourney, because I I get to run
groups at this center on Colfaxfor the transgender females, I,
you know, set on a policy changemaker for one Colorado to help
transgender rights.
I um was on the Pride, NeverPride Planning Board.

(01:40:24):
All of which happened in ayear's time, which is amazing.
That's that 19-year-old,uneducated person working up to
a corporate trainer type ofmentality.
And I'm a person of my word.
I stand by my word.
The word right now for thatindividual is gosh, what I had
to learn in my journey isconnect with a community.

(01:40:45):
As hard as you think it is,there are resources out there.
If you walk in and connect withthat community of all those
individuals who felt that samefear and had questions and
didn't know.
When Vanessa was becomingVanessa and I made that decision
with my therapist, the firstthing I did was hop on the old

(01:41:08):
Googlen device and I searchedfor transgender support groups,
and I found a couple of them.
And it was very mirror image ofwhen I sat outside my first AA
meeting without the judgetelling me to go, and it was me
making a decision.
And I was sitting outside, like,you know, maybe I could do this
tomorrow.
I don't need to go in there now.
Like, this is ridiculous.
I'm hungry.

(01:41:28):
I'm gonna go get something toeat.
I don't need to be here.
You know, like making any reasonto not get any reason.
Just sitting there, like, ohgosh, I don't know, and then F
it, I gotta go in.
And it was the exact same thingfor that because I hadn't
started looking like Vanessayet.
I was still very much my oldperson.
And I knew this is what I wasgonna do, but I learned from my
recovery journey that I had toconnect with a community.

(01:41:52):
And so I walked into my firstroom, it's a work group, and I
hear people talking the samething.
Like, I don't know how to tellmy parents.
Where do I get hormones?
What do I laser my face?
Do I raise it or razor it?
What do we do?
What is eyeshadow?
You know, these questions thatI'm like, oh my gosh, uh, I
didn't know that.
I need that.
So if I was to give someoneadvice, is to find a community

(01:42:14):
that fits the area in which youwant to follow, like that that
identity that you want to be.
Because there are communitiesout there, there are resources
out there, and I am stilllearning to find them all now
too.
Because again, I didn't havethat, but that is now my
modality of where I need tofocus my attention on.

(01:42:35):
Long-winded answers for a simplequestion.

SPEAKER_00 (01:42:38):
But they're so good.
I love how much I haven't talkedin this episode because I just
wanted to hear your whole story,which is so great.
And I'm just so appreciativethat you said yes without
hesitation and with excitement,no less, when I asked you.
And just so much thank you fortelling the truth.

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:43:01):
Because that truth is what helps people who don't
know right now.
And that's um so much of why Icreated this space in the first
place is to talk about thingsthat I didn't know from when I
was younger and growing up, andlike so many of us had to meet
through it all.
And where can we where can weshare that and talk about things
that maybe other people haven'tfigured out yet?

(01:43:23):
You know, while they're on theirjourney.
But thank you so much for beinghere and for telling the truth
and just showing up as full ofyou, and I'm so appreciative,
not only that you're here today,but that I get to I get to have
you in my life, which is just areally beautiful gift.

SPEAKER_01 (01:43:37):
I can say the exact same thing to you.
You are a light too, and you'reso amazing.
I have so much respect, and Ilook up to you, even from a
distance.
You're way over there.
Thank you for having me.
It's truly an honor.
And um, like yeah, when youasked if it wasn't the you that
you are, my schedule's blocked.

(01:43:59):
You know, I got I've um I gotthings to do.
I want to ride my hardware withit.

SPEAKER_02 (01:44:03):
Food is always your option.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:04):
Yeah, exactly.
But as soon as you said that, Iwas like, yes, let's make this
happen 100%.
Um, thank you for thinking of mebecause it truly means the world
to me.
And I'm glad that I got to behere.
So thank you.
Love you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:16):
You're welcome.
And I do.
I don't know if I've said itactually out loud, but I love
you.
And I want you to know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:22):
Thank you.
I love you too.
Oh, I love you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:24):
You're welcome.
I'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44:26):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:44:27):
Bye.
Bye.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
leave a quick rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
It helps more people find theshow.
If you want more of me, head onover to NatanyaAllison.com and
enter your name and email forbehind the scenes updates in

(01:44:48):
between shows.
New episodes air every Tuesday.
We'll see you next week.

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EP09: Becoming Vanessa | A Story of Courage and True Liberation with Vanessa James

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP09: Becoming Vanessa | A Story of Courage and True Liberation with Vanessa James