November 18, 2025 • 65 mins
"I think that the essence of reinventing yourself is owning who you are."
Join us for a heartfelt and profound conversation with Anne Taylor that redefines what it means to age powerfully and joyfully. We dive deep into the silent struggle of cultural pressures surrounding body image and explore how our deepest self-worth is often unnecessarily tied to professional presentation.
Through personal stories of radical reinvention and self-acceptance, we prove that aging is a beautiful process filled with wisdom and growth. The discussion is a candid look at the complexities of long-term recovery, advocating for authenticity, vulnerability, and breaking the stigmas surrounding these experiences.
Tune in to learn how to embrace your age, own your story, and find strength in who you truly are.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
Well, the stories here arehonest and heartfelt.
They're not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
medical paper.
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.
(00:49):
Today's guest is Ann Taylor.
Anne is a sage of wisdom that Ihave had the privilege of
sharing space with for a fewyears now.
I'm always aiming to be quietand listen whenever people who
have really shown up and beenthrough many life lessons before
me are around, and she is one ofthose people.
In this episode, we get intoembracing change as you age,
(01:11):
transforming diversity intopurpose, and how transitions can
become opportunities forreinvention.
I hope you enjoy the show.
Anne, I'm so happy that you'rehere.
(01:31):
The way that that we startedwith this conversation, why I
wanted to talk to you, isbecause we were on a meeting not
that long ago.
And for all the times that wehave been in conversation with
each other, you sort of saidsomething at the end of the
meeting.
And I was like, wait, no, let'stalk more about that.
Because we'd never talked aboutit before.
And what you said was speakingto the concept of aging,
(01:53):
specifically differently thanyou maybe learned growing up,
and doing so much more empoweredand more powerfully than um than
I think we're taught societywith.
So I wanted to know what doesthat mean to you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Well, I think, especially now that I I raised
two sons, but now I have twodaughters-in-law.
And I can see already and I hearthem already talk about body
image and aging, even thoughyou're they're young.
And it made me realize just howhard our culture is on us
(02:36):
embracing who we are at everystage of life.
And now that I am going to beturning 65, um I really want to
change the way that I myselflook at myself as an older woman
and change the way the youngwomen in my lives, including
(03:00):
yourself, look at themselves inthe aging process because it
really is an amazing thing toage and to become wiser.
And it's natural that the bodyis going to absorb that
experience.
And so I want everybody to wearit proudly.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
So what do you think?
How has what does the past looklike?
What did you grow up learningthat aging meant, or what do you
think you're seeing out thereright now that is not
particularly helpful?
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Well, I grew up in a in an attractive family, and um
looks were just way tooimportant, you know, kind of
that concept of as long as youlook good on the outside, then
everything must be okay on theinside.
Ah and that that just isn't thecase as we all learn as we move
(03:56):
forward in life, that that thatis not the case at all, and
definitely not in my particularcase.
And so I want us to all put downthe um need to have the world
perceive us in a way that wedon't really feel.
(04:20):
And so my path to that is just alot of hard work.
I no longer there's there's toomany important things going on
in the world, there's too manythings that I want to do in my
life that I do not want the wayI look to get in the way of.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
I'm curious if you felt like that your value or
your worth was held in the waythat you looked at any point in
time.
Oh yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yes.
Absolutely.
I I especially um early in mycareer, it mattered a lot
because I worked in healthcare.
I l worked with a lot of malesin healthcare, and the way I
(05:07):
presented myself absolutelymattered.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
Do you think you made different decisions about
how you presented yourself inorder to try to either gain an
advantage somewhere or like moveforward throughout the work
space?
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
No, because I ended up more in the nonprofit world.
And thankfully it doesn't matterquite as much.
But um, you know, we've mademore progress in the last, I've
been in my career for 37 years,and we've made more progress,
women in the workplace,especially in healthcare,
(05:46):
because women in healthcare uhit's become the norm.
And so it doesn't matter quiteas much.
But I myself was aware that theway I presented myself did
matter.
I don't think I was somebodythat did it on purpose.
(06:07):
I didn't purposely dress myselfin a way to attract or to move
ahead, but I definitely lookedthe part in terms of whatever
job I was doing.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Do you think that you've passed that along, or do
you think have you watched that,like you said, in your
children's experience thatthey've picked up on that?
Or do you think the world haschanged a little bit since like
time has passed and they've justgotten society?
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
I'm not sure it was passed on to my sons.
That would be a reallyinteresting conversation to have
with them.
It's true.
Um, it really would.
Yeah.
Uh they definitely they aren'tas worried about the way they
look uh at at all as I was, theway they dress, except when, you
(06:57):
know, they're in a prprofessional environment or
whatever.
Um I think we as a society havepassed it along, and I've been
part of that.
Yeah.
I have been part of that.
They I I work in a very casualenvironment now, and I remember
(07:18):
at first thinking, oh gosh, wedon't people need to dress more
professionally or whatever.
I had a I had kind of a I callit the snob factor around it.
Where we serve a population ofpeople that don't have a lot.
(07:42):
And so we like to meet our thepeople we serve where they are,
and so we naturally dress andpresent ourselves in a more
relatable way.
And now I fully embrace it andlove it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Um what if anything, what would you have done
differently?
Could you go backwards?
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
I don't I don't think I would have conformed,
but I say that, but I'm not surethat's really true because it
was all it was required at thattime to conform.
But in my personal life, Iabsolutely would have done
things differently.
(08:22):
I have spent my adulthood umtrying to be a certain size.
You know, I've always colored myhair, which I'm no longer doing
to be a particular color that Ithought thought it needed to be.
I wish I would have justembraced my essence from the
very beginning rather thanfighting against it, which is
(08:45):
what I feel like I've done.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
Yeah, I love that you said that I had a, I
remember when my mom, I don'tremember how old she was when
she did this, but she used todye her hair regularly, right?
To cover up the grays, so tospeak.
And there came a time in which Iremember it was because she used
to do it all the time.
There came a time when she waslike, I'm I'm done with this.
(09:07):
And she let it go, right?
And let it grow out.
And to this day, just the mostbeautiful salt and pepper silver
hair that I've ever seennaturally on someone that people
people pay to have that done.
And her hair was just doing it,you know, the way it grew out,
and it changed over time and itgot lighter.
(09:27):
Even as I've gotten older, um, Iused to dye my hair just for
fun.
And even now, there's one colorthat I do like to dye it
occasionally, but I've I foundit was maybe, I don't know,
three or four years ago, I foundsilver in my hair.
And I thought it was the mostbeautiful thing.
And I felt like I'd earned mystripes somehow.
(09:50):
And so I won't won't dye my hairbecause I like that.
But it's not a popularconversation for sure in the
world of like, you know, no,it's it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
I'm you know, I'm growing my hair out now to be
its natural color, which I hadno idea what it was, right?
Um, at all.
And just going through theprocess of um growing your hair
hair out to its natural color isa humbling process because it's
not gonna look good for a while.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that's really goodfor us.
(10:25):
Yeah.
I think it's a really it's ait's an important process to go
through because it takes awhile.
I mean, it's gonna take I'vebeen working on it now for about
six months.
I've got at least probablyanother year because I have
longer hair.
And it's a really humblingprocess that that I really am
(10:49):
enjoying because it's kind oflet helping me let go of it all.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
Oh, that's really beautiful.
In addition to like the physicalpart of your hair or body,
whatnot, are there other partsof aging that you feel like have
come along with that whereyou're also letting go of other
things in addition to thephysical part?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Yeah, I think naturally as we age, we care
less about what people think ofus.
Yeah.
You know, the what I findinteresting is the pressure that
I have felt the most over thelast 10, 20 years is my own
pressure, not other people'spressure, but my own.
These expectations I have ofmyself.
(11:33):
You know, for instance, I'vealways been very athletic.
And and as you age, you know,you're just not able to keep up
quite as much.
And um, and right now I have ahip that needs to be replaced.
So I have to sit around a lot.
And instead of fighting againstit, I'm trying really hard to
(11:55):
just embrace it and know that mybody has served me so
beautifully throughout my life.
I've given birth to two sons, Isurvived you know, a very bad
accident that resulted in atraumatic brain injury, and my
body has taken very good care ofme, and now it's my turn to take
(12:16):
care of it.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
That was really beautifully said.
I hear that, and I I'm enjoyingthis so much because I'm in
obviously like you know, adifferent decade of my life than
you are, but having brought upin the society that tells you
you should or shouldn't dosomething and watching,
especially as I hit likemilestone birthdays, I remember
watching friends have a reallyhard time when people started
(12:40):
turning 30.
Yes, that that was like a theywere not okay with that.
And yeah, I think something thatis a little bit different for
me, and I know you'll understandthis as a human in recovery.
For me, I love birthdays.
And that is because, again, formy life and the way it's gone
the last several years, my lifehas gotten better as I've gotten
(13:02):
older, right?
And it wasn't always that thatway, but the last handful of
years, I love it because I likewho I am, how I'm showing up for
things, where I ask questions orchallenge, like, do I have to do
it this way just becauseeverybody always did?
But I've really enjoyed aging,but I've found that that is not
always a popular conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Yes.
Yeah, I I think the wisdom thatwe gain can receive a lot of
pushback.
Yeah.
Because when you no longer careas much what other people think
of you, you just naturally speakyour mind more.
Um, and that's not alwaysembraced or accepted.
But also I just don't care asmuch about that.
(13:48):
I'm I'm a very nice person.
I don't offend people, you know,I when I say I don't care what
people think, I don't care whatthey think about who I am as a
person, but I'm a good person.
But if I'm not always at ahundred percent, which is what
we often expect of ourselves,I'm okay with that.
(14:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Um, which is really interesting too.
Perfectionism is another thingthat I've run into in my own
life many times, and having tolike repractice the letting go
of things when I've spent yearstrying to get everything right.
It's just been reallyinteresting to try to navigate
and to undo the things that I'velearned.
Right.
And like even you said whatpeople think about me.
(14:33):
Like there is, there's a selectnumber of people that I care
about what they think because Ivalue an opinion where I write
their view on the world, and Iknow that they'll, you know,
call me on my shit, or they'llreally show up and meet me where
I am, which is really beautiful.
But I think what you're sayinggenerally, like I've let go of
(14:54):
more than I used to, for sure,in terms of I'm gonna do this
thing or say this thing, andjust be okay, even if you are
uncomfortable in what I justsaid.
Right.
And you do a really good job ofthat.
It's one of the things I loveabout you.
We talked about that not thatlong ago, was just being a
(15:14):
person in the room that pointsout the thing or the elephant in
the room, not as a as a badthing, but just like, hey, are
we gonna talk about this?
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Well, and I think that's the that's the age, you
know, that's me being older withexperience.
And that is what I wanteverybody to embrace about
themselves, because fine Ifinally do have some years to
back up my experience, whichthen you know leads to a little
(15:47):
bit of wisdom, a little bit ofsaginess that um I find myself
sometimes, especially quitefrankly, in the group that you
and I got to know each other in.
Sometimes I would find myselfnot wanting to say something
because, you know, uh, how is itgonna be taken?
(16:10):
But then it's also like, well, Ihave the right to say those
things.
I think you reach an age whereyou've kind of earned that right
to express in whatever way thatis helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
Yeah.
Well, and I wonder, like, whatwas it just from being a person
who at one point in time youwould have been like the younger
person in the room, right?
Whether it's a work, whateverwhere you're the you're the new
kid or you're the younger personthere, to like growing into an
age where you are the sage, youknow, you are older than most of
(16:47):
the people in whatever roomyou're in, in terms of, like you
said, at work or whatever.
Like I have this even, we weretalking the other day, one of
the girls that is on my teamtold me her birthday.
And it was like, you know, I waslike, you were born when?
You know, like we're not even inthe same, we're not even close,
but it was just sort of shockingto hear the number.
(17:09):
And yeah, you know, and I'm not,I mean, I'm 38.
And so in the like, you know,wherever I am, she's like 22.
I don't know.
Um, but it was just I went frombeing where I was the new kid to
now, you know, I have morewisdom, or people come to me for
stuff, or I'm in charge ofthings.
But it's like the room moves andit shifts, and I go from being
(17:32):
the newcomer over time tosuddenly it sort of happened and
I wasn't looking.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Right.
It's so true.
I have that happen all the time,Natanya, where I find out how
old somebody is and I'm like, ohmy God, I I can almost be their
grandmother.
unknown (17:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
It was one thing to say, I can be, you know, I could
be their mother.
That applies to a a lot, but nowI'm reaching the age where I
could almost be a grandmother.
Not quite, not to the ages atwork, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
What has been the hardest part of that for you?
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Of the age differences?
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Yeah, of just changing over time and being in
a space where it I think we gofrom my experience has been that
I kind of looked around the roomfor a long time, and someone
always knew more than I did orwas older than me, whether it's
an older sibling or a parent,like so you're following.
And then at some point, I canremember being, I was my second
(18:31):
degree was in an education.
And so I was a teacher for alittle a short amount of time.
And I remember being in aclassroom and someone came and
knocked on the door and waslooking for the teacher.
And I looked around the room,like, because I it it took me a
minute to realize that that wasme, you know, because not that
long ago I had been in college.
unknown (18:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
It went from being a college student to suddenly now
I'm now I'm the person at thefront of the room.
And sort of the the mental shiftthat that takes from being like,
I'm not following, I'm notfollowing everybody anymore.
Now I'm the person, and peoplelooking for someone to speak or
to say anything.
And I would be like, don't lookat me, you know, and now I found
(19:14):
myself raising my hand andsaying, I'll go first.
Yeah.
But I'm curious what that hasbeen like for you, if you had a
similar experience or not.
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Um, I think through every decadeI've had that experience where
I'm kind of like, oh my gosh.
I think right now it'sespecially in my face because
there is an older group of us atmy workplace, they're all
retiring in the next year, agood majority of them.
(19:47):
Well, I'm not going to beretiring for a while.
And I'm kind of I can't believethat I could possibly be the
literally the oldest person atthe company.
Yeah.
Because I think the part,Natanya, that is the wildest is
you just don't feel your age.
(20:08):
I mean, I I cannot believe thatI'm gonna be 65 because I still
feel like in my mind I'm a I'm a20-something, you know.
I I still have spunk and I stillum love to go to concerts and do
(20:31):
all the things that I've alwaysenjoyed doing.
And I think we always think thatat some point we're gonna sit
down in a chair and not get up,type of thing.
And I I just do not feel my ageat all.
At all.
Mostly, and I think it's kind offunny, mostly emotionally and
(20:53):
mentally, I just don't feel myage.
Um I feel much younger.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
I love that.
And I think it made me think ofphotographs that I've seen of
like, I don't know, mygrandparents at ages, and I feel
like the age they are in thephotograph, they look so much
older.
Mm-hmm.
What people I think look like atthose ages now.
And I associate that withslowing down and all the things.
(21:19):
And I hear you, because I like Idon't feel that way about you
either.
You know, I don't, not even fora second.
Um but I do think that like mymom had she retired this year.
And she'll probably kill me forsaying this on air, but she's
she's 78.
(21:40):
And like she just like she when25 happened, I can remember
friends of hers asking her, Oh,when are you gonna retire?
And she's like, I'm I'm not.
But she likes to work, she's avery engaged human in her life.
I think she liked the place thatshe was at, right?
And so she just kept going.
And then and it's socializationfor her.
(22:02):
There's a lot of, you know, shejust liked her job.
And then after that last year'swent on and she couldn't do the
you know, 40 hours a weekanymore.
That company just worked reallywell with her in terms of like
at one point she went down tothree days a week and was that
for a couple of years.
I love that, you know, and thentwo, and then the last I don't
know how many, but the last yearor two, she's been down to one
(22:23):
day a week.
So she still went in one day aweek and you know, got
everything that she needed doneand helped the other people and
whatnot.
And then finally this year,she's like, I think, I think I'm
good.
I love that.
But it was what was interestingabout it though, was that we had
conversations around just peersof hers that maybe didn't
(22:46):
understand her for doing that orsort of questioned or would
continually bring it up, like,oh, so when are you gonna
retire?
Like waiting for her to tofollow the status quo.
And I think when she didn't, itmade people uncomfortable
sometimes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:04):
Well, and I think I've had this battle of I'm kind
of envious of my friends thatare able to retire, you know,
and travel and do all that.
But then there's this other partof me that I don't I'll be I'll
probably be like your mother.
I can't imagine I'll either beworking or just volunteering a
(23:30):
ton.
Because I can't imagine nothaving somewhere to go every
day.
That to me is just I can'timagine it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Yes.
And like I said, she alsoenjoyed it.
And you know, when she retired,one of the things that we talked
about was socialization becauseshe's, you know, some people I
think are more extroverted andthey go out in the world and
join clubs and do this thing anddo that thing.
And she's always been verycomfortable being by herself.
She has always got projects andlists and things to do around
(24:03):
the house, and she keeps herselfbusier than any person I've ever
met.
But and also like you still haveto be around people so you don't
just isolate.
Right.
Um, so that was another wholething we talked about of like
making sure how do you how doyou take care of that, you know?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Right.
Yeah, it's I mean, that's one ofthe biggest things.
I I look at my mother, she's 94,and my dad just died five years
ago, and she keeps herselfincredibly busy and has a very
sharp mind and everything.
And I know that if she thinkabout how her life could be
without my dad, and thatloneliness and isolation that
(24:44):
you can so easily slip into asan older person, especially if
you're if you don't aren't in arelationship, it can happen
really easily.
And it doesn't bode well for afor a healthy life.
Have you ever talked to herabout all this?
(25:04):
My mom?
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Oh yeah.
What is her what are herthoughts on it?
Just the kind of on aging?
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
Yeah.
Well, my mom has always been oneof the most incredibly power
positive people you'll evermeet.
She just always has.
She's just has this this outlookon life.
She doesn't have she doesn'teven have many fears.
You know, I've always been thisperson that as a little girl,
(25:34):
you know, I was afraid to fly,and and she just was like, oh,
it's no big, you know,everything with her has always
been um very positive.
And so even with her aging, umshe's sh, she's been okay with
it because she's able to seethat she's had this incredible
(25:58):
life, and she and my dad weremarried for 65 years, and um,
you know, she's just got a lotof of joy in her life.
She's frustrated physically,that's the hardest part about
the aging for somebody that ather age that has such a sharp
(26:19):
mind.
At 94, your body's just notgoing to keep up.
It just, you know, it's it'shard.
And so she's starting to loseher vision and uh her hearing,
and and she's got limitations tosome degree now, but but she
she's got a really positiveoutlook on it, and part of that
is she was an occupationaltherapist, and she worked with
(26:44):
seniors her entire career.
Okay.
So she kind of has always beenprepared for what's gonna happen
or what could happen, and how tonot let things happen, not let
yourself deteriorate.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
So we'll go to the reverse for a second.
What do you think your childrenfeel about it?
About me aging?
Just about well, aging forthemselves.
Do you see them in the same kindof that you used to be?
SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Or what well, yeah.
My older son turned, he's 31now, and so 30 was traumatic.
And my younger son is gonna be30 in December.
And they're just, you know, ohmy gosh, I'm turning 30.
Is this where I thought I wasgonna be?
And so on and so forth.
(27:35):
And so yeah, they're they'revery much, they both were
freaking out about the age of30.
Yeah.
You know, and I can't say tothem, I always hated it when I
was freaking out, and peoplewould say to me, Oh, you're a
baby.
So I don't say that to them, butI'm thinking it.
I'm like, you know, my goodness,you've got so much ahead of you.
(28:01):
And I think, Natanya, that's oneof the most important things
I've learned in the agingprocess is, you know, we're
blessed to age.
My sister died at the age of 54.
Um, I'm blessed to still behere.
And each decade, actually, Ihave found each decade to be
(28:26):
more enjoyable.
I love that.
Because you really are cominginto your own.
You really do, I really do knowwho I am now.
It's taken a long time, but Ireally know who I am.
And I know for years I want Iquestioned that.
(28:46):
Who am I?
What am I supposed to you know?
Yeah.
I really And then go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (28:53):
It's making me, I felt that way for a long time.
I felt very floundering, andwhat do I want to do with my
life?
And I was I was frustrated withthat because I'm like, I'm smart
and I know things.
Why do I feel so disconnectedfrom everything?
And a lot of choices that Imade, not that many, you know, I
think I was 32 when I gotdivorced.
(29:14):
I had I had essentially like amidlife crisis.
I was just 32, you know.
Um, but it's one of the bestthings that's ever happened to
me because somewhere in thatlike breaking of all of the
things, when I lifted my headout of the ground and asked
myself some of those really bigquestions, it was like, this
(29:35):
isn't working.
I sort of followed the playbookthat I thought I was supposed to
follow to go live this versionof my life.
And that that left me, you know,on a kitchen floor with a bottle
of Jack Daniels and an Oracledeck.
And I said, Well, now what?
You know, and then I got up offthe floor and got divorced, and
(29:58):
then a couple years later, gotSober when all of those things
in that journey was reallychallenging because it's not
pretty, right?
We'll go back to the part ofwhat people see.
It was really hard for me tostand in a room and say, I'm
gonna end this thing becauseit's so not good for me.
(30:19):
And I'm gonna break apart thevery life that I just spent all
of my years building.
Yep.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
And those experiences, you know, I I've
never, to me, the whole conceptof midlife crisis, it's not just
one event.
That's that's the biggest thingthat I think we have to prepare
ourselves for when we have theopportunity to age.
We're gonna have so many ofthose experiences that wake us
(30:47):
up and kind of redirect wherewe're going in our lives.
You know, when I had a traumaticbrain injury at the age of 52,
54, I can't remember, 52.
Uh, I was running so fast.
I was a single mom and I wasworking really hard and
(31:09):
providing for my boys and tryingto, you know, just all this
stuff.
I was running so hard and sofast that it was almost like
that brain injury was inevitableand necessary because I had no
choice but to completely stopand heal.
(31:29):
And the brain injury is what ledme into my art that I do and my
meditation that I do.
It completely transformed mylife.
And so I think that's the otherthing that I hope as we all age
that we don't fear what mayhappen.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah.
Well, and there's a there's a Imean, a great deal of surrender
required.
Like you said, especially if youhad a if you had a TVI, and then
that really, you know, sometimesI I'll tell people or I feel
like I have the experience of ifI'm ever doing what you said and
(32:10):
like going too fast and notslowing down and not taking time
for myself, I'll get sick andalways think it's it's just like
a sign that like you're notlistening and you're not gonna
slow down, so we're gonna slowyou down.
Um and I've I've thought thatalso with injuries, just just
things like that, where like ifif you don't course correct,
(32:35):
sometimes the universe will doit for you.
But it's so interesting thatthat ended up being like what
birthed your art.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Yeah, I you know, I feel the same way as you,
Natanya, whenever I get those.
I think you have to be open tothe having the experience be
perceived that way.
That because I will go so hard,so hard.
And my boys were even like, Mom,you needed that.
(33:04):
And thankfully I survived it.
Right.
But um it was a divineexperience because it comp it
completely transformed how I howI operated in my life.
Because I you you get on thattreadmill and you don't even
realize how fast you're running.
(33:25):
Yeah.
And and then you also don't knowhow to stop.
You're afraid to stop.
I can't stop because what ifthis happens, or what if that
happens, and then it's done foryou, and you have no choice but
to face it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
Yeah.
How long, how long of anexperience was that from you,
like from the time it happeneduntil you would consider
yourself to be recovered.
SPEAKER_00 (33:49):
Mostly recovered, probably a good six years.
Oh wow, okay.
TBIs are weird, and I I knowthat's not what this is about.
We're go wherever you go.
Yeah, TBIs are an a a weirdthing because you know you're
different, but you don't knowhow to explain to other people
(34:12):
that you are.
Like, um I I definitely strugglewith attention deficit disorder
now as a result of the braininjury because of where I was
impacted.
Uh but here's the thing becauseof my age and because I'm
postmenopause, it also could bethose factors.
(34:36):
Okay.
So I don't know if it's age,brain injury, you know,
postmenopausal or all of them.
You know, I I I have weird,well, one thing I do know is a
result of the brain injury is Iused to have beautiful
handwriting and I don't anymore.
(34:57):
It's like my brain and my handwork differently.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
Um, that's the most tangible thing I can grab on to.
But brain fatigue is a bigthing.
Like if I'm in too loud of aroom for too long, like I love
concerts, but I can never go toindoor concerts.
I have they have to be outdoors.
Otherwise, my brain can'tprocess and it exhausts me.
(35:23):
Things like that.
That's that for the most partpart, I'm you know, I'm
recovered.
Yeah.
But there will always be thelingering things.
SPEAKER_01 (35:31):
Um, were there any other side effects of that whole
experience?
Like relationship?
Yeah.
Relationship, anything else thatchanged from that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
I lost my sense of smell and and uh uh taste for a
long time, and they said it wasnever going to come back, but it
did, and I think that's becauseof the meditation that I did.
I'm convinced of that.
Whether that's true or not, Idon't know.
I was I was with my lateex-husband the day that it
(36:02):
happened, and so he he and wewere already divorced by that
time, he was my knight inshining armor and made sure I
was okay.
And so that kind of was anexperience that enriched our our
relationship as parents to ourkids.
My boys were in their teens, andit was something that they just
(36:23):
they struggled with very much tosee their mom in the in the way
that I was.
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Because I shuffled for a long, you know, for
several months.
I shuffled, I couldn't pick upmy feet.
Just weird stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
Yes, yeah, there's a lot of problems with that.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
Yeah.
Man, I didn't know any of thisabout you.
Oh, yeah.
It's it's one of those things inlife that most of the people in
my life now truly didn't know mebefore the brain injury.
So there's no way to see itreally a difference.
My boys noticed th differencesin me.
(37:02):
Yeah.
But most people are they wouldthey're like, I would never know
that you'd had a brain injury.
And it's like, well, no, becauseyou know me now.
Right.
You didn't know me when I waslike this, and you know, on the
treadmill, just running as fastas I could and talked really
(37:22):
fast and just kind of was notI'm calm now.
Yeah.
I'm calm, and I wasn't before.
SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
You're very steady, like just as in a room, which
I've always found to be calmingand relaxing.
I'm curious, are you would yoube up for me talking or asking
you about recovery?
Absolutely.
Okay.
I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
Uh absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
How long, how long have you been in and around
recovery?
Because I don't actually know.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
35 years.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
I thought it was a long time.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, what was that like for you35 years ago to begin with?
Again, back then, recoverywasn't as big of a word as it is
now.
Not as commonly talked about.
There were not all of the, youknow, programs and
(38:12):
extracurriculars and activity,you know, just things and
connections and places togather.
What was that like back then?
SPEAKER_00 (38:19):
Well, really, the only thing back then were the
12-step programs.
Um I that I don't remember therebeing any other long.
I was an intensive outpatientand did inpatient at one at one
point for a brief stint.
But in terms of the now there'sjust so many options, and there
(38:41):
was none of that.
And I'll never forget my firstAA meeting.
I walked in and and um I had arespectable job during the day.
And so it was in 19, I think,eighty-seven or eighty-eight
that I first walked in.
You know, I'm in this one of myprofessional outfits for my job,
and I walk into this room, andI'm by far the youngest, and I'm
(39:06):
one of just maybe two or threewomen.
Everybody's smoking like achimney, drinking gallons of
coffee, and I sit down and I'mlike, my God, what am I doing
here?
I do not belong here.
When I hear things like, I'vespilled more than you ever
drank, type of thing.
And it's a ma it's a miracle Istayed.
(39:27):
Yeah.
And I didn't, I didn't get soberright away, but I have I've
always been part of AA.
It's still part of my life.
Well, that's not true.
I I went a long stint withoutdoing anything, I just didn't
drink, but it's always been apart of my life because I have
no idea why I hung in there.
(39:49):
Oh, that was my next question.
Like, why did you say?
I have well, I knew I knew timewas up.
I was a chronic drunk driver.
Yeah.
And my biggest fear was hurtingsomebody when I was drunk
driving.
I didn't care that much aboutme, but terrified I was gonna
(40:11):
hurt somebody.
And and I just became thisperson, you know, I was one
person by day and a totallydifferent personality by night.
Uh-huh.
Because I was always inblackouts.
And the two worlds were startingto collide.
I was no longer able to keepthem separate.
Yeah.
And I, you know, I was losing, Iwas losing my my soul.
(40:36):
You know, I've always said thataddiction is a soul sickness to
its very core.
And my soul was so sick.
And I somehow, but alcoholismwas not present in our family at
that time.
I was the only one.
So I was like, I'm such a loser.
Look at me.
(40:58):
I'm the only one in my familythat is an alcoholic.
Well, it that's not the way it'splayed out.
Um, and there's others for surethat are in my family that are
in recovery or not.
And uh, but at the time I justthought, oh my God, I'm, you
(41:18):
know, when I first came in, Iwas 27.
I finally got sober at 29.
SPEAKER_02 (41:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (41:23):
And um I just remember being focused.
My grandmother was 98 years oldwhen I was getting sober.
And I remember being obsessedwith the fact that if I lived as
long as she did, I wouldn't beable to drink for 71 years.
Yeah.
But I kept going, even though Iand and here's the thing: maybe
(41:46):
I didn't look like anybody inthat room because a lot of them
were, you know, thestereotypical alcoholic of that
time, but I related to how theyfelt and I related to their
stories.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
I know that feeling.
Yeah.
Um, I know the feeling from thefirst time I started, like when
I walked into a room, I Iactually didn't go.
I was six months sober before Iwalked into a room of 12 step,
and I had done it cold turkey,and then I had gotten hired in
recovery while I was um I wastwo months sober, like terrible
(42:22):
idea, whoever said yes to that.
Helping people in recovery, andI was only two months sober.
But they saw something becausethey stayed.
Yes, they did, you know, butjust the when I finally went, it
was just because I had beenworking in recovery and going to
social events, and so I wasmeeting people, and everyone
(42:43):
around me was like, you shouldgo to a meeting.
And I was like, I don't reallyknow that that's for me.
And then one of my friends waslike, You're gonna love it.
Like, because I'm veryanalytical and I love psychology
and why people do what they do.
Literally, you're gonna love it.
Just go, like, just suck it up.
And I didn't want to go afterwork, like it was just laziness,
(43:05):
and so I finally went one dayand I was like, This is great.
To and but but where I was goingwith that was to be in a room
with people and go and hearpeople speak and be like,
they're talking about me, right?
He gets what I'm saying, sheknows what I, you know, when
they're saying things, and I'mlike, that happens to me too.
(43:27):
Or I felt that way too.
And for many years, not having aplace to voice that and thinking
that I thought I was nuts for along time because I was just
like, no one else around meseems to have this problem.
And I got I did the same thingof you in terms of it.
I was a high functioningalcoholic for a long time and
(43:50):
did it good.
And then at some point itstarted to crash.
And the two worlds, the world Iwas living externally, where you
know, I had that facade going,and what I was actually doing
inside of my life when the doorswere closed, at some point came
together and I couldn't upholdit anymore.
And it was leaking out sideways,you know.
SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I it's the only place I cango and when I go to a meeting, I
sit down and I just I can justbreathe and be completely who I
am.
(44:34):
There are no uh no pressure tobe anything but present in that
very moment.
And of course, the reward ofbeing of service to others is so
huge.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
So were you at the time of when you what were you
doing for work then?
Like were you working in thefield that you work in now back
then?
SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
Well, I was working for the American Cancer Society.
SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
And um, and it's pretty funny now.
It wasn't funny then, but I hada company car because I traveled
to I was what was called adistrict rep, and I would go out
and I would Sterling, forexample, Sterling, Colorado.
Well, Steamboat was part of myterritory, you know, some remote
(45:23):
areas, and I had this littlecompany car, and it was American
Cancer Society, and I'd rolldown, you know, rotary rolled
windows, I'd roll those down andsmoke my cigarettes in the
American Cancer Society car anddrive around the state and get
myself into some trouble becauseaspen was part of my territory.
(45:46):
And um, and it was they wouldnever let a young person, young
woman travel like that now, likeI did back then.
But it was it was a crazy timebecause I, you know, even in
that car of mine, you know, tobe smoking cigarettes, and then
(46:08):
about, you know, I'd get about30 minutes outside of town and
stop and pick up beer and drinkit as I came into town and would
plan ahead and have my friends,you know, where are you guys
gonna all be tonight and go meetthem at a bar?
And the new, the whole differentpersonality would would jump in,
(46:28):
you know.
It was just it was bizarre.
And I I pulled, yeah, I pulledit off for a long time and I had
respect in my in my job.
And I would do these fundraisingevents in Aspen and
Breckenridge, and we did one inSteamboat, and I was responsible
for those, and I'd pull them offsomehow.
(46:49):
I just look back and I'm like,how did I how did I manage pull
out?
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
I also think that regularly.
I was like, who let me out intothe world?
unknown (46:59):
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (47:01):
It's so true.
Like, whose idea was that?
SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
It's so true.
And then I had a mother'sagainst drunk driving ribbon on
my antenna of my car.
Yeah.
You know, just this wholedeception of my trying to just,
you know, deceive myself anddeceive others that look at me,
I'm so responsible.
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
So at what point did that start to change where you
went from being like Dr.
Jekyll and Mr.
Hyde to more of alignment withlike the one person that you are
and following that direction andchanging careers?
Like at what point did thatshift or begin to shift?
You mean before I got sober?
Well, I mean, if even if it'safter you got sober, like
(47:44):
sometimes people get sober andstill are living, you know,
they'll hide their sobriety orthat they're just, you know,
they're still out of integrity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Yeah.
Well, to be honest, I've neverbeen very um open about my
sobriety in the professionalenvironment because I worked in
healthcare and I worked with alot of physicians, and there was
there has always been such abias, and it it still remains of
addiction in the medicalcommunity, you know, still a
perception of it being aweakness rather than the disease
(48:16):
that it is.
And so I've always been veryquiet about it.
So when I got sober, a yearafter I was sober, my late
husband John and I met and westarted dating.
And by the time I had threeyears of sobriety, I was married
and pregnant.
Okay.
(48:38):
And I didn't even take the timeto figure out what sobriety
looked like in my life because Iwas too busy now going, okay,
now it's time for me to get allthese things that I have put on
hold because I was drinking, youknow.
Uh-huh.
Now I gotta catch up toeverybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (48:57):
And so then um uh unfortunately, um John and I
didn't make it, and I didn't domy I didn't do any kind of
program or anything, and I justran around crazy just trying to
(49:17):
keep everything together andtake care of the boys because
being a mom was always very,very important to me, and being
a good mom was really importantto me.
And at 19 years of sobriety ordryness, I I had a crisis of of
everything, of faith, of um, youknow, I almost drank and then I
(49:38):
got back to AA, and that waswhen I really got serious about
the work.
And that's when I really startedto discover who I was, outside
of being a mother.
SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Love that you said that though, of 19 years of
dryness.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's I think nottalked about as much as I would
like to talk about it in termsof people that are in fact sober
or clean, whatever.
Um, and then we use the term drydrunk, right?
And I've met many people likethis, and I didn't really
(50:14):
understand it until I was kindof in and around it, which is
that like they're not usinganything, but they're also still
functioning in a lot of oldwounds and not doing any work or
not healing or not growing.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (50:29):
Um, and that you can do that for years.
Oh, I did, and it's awful.
It's awful because I was verydepressed, and um I I don't
think my brother would mind mesaying this at all.
My brother's sober, and Iremember him calling me, and
(50:51):
he's he's not been around aslong as I have, and he he called
me and he said, Ann, why don'tyou get back to AA?
Get back to some recoveryprogram, and I said, Oh, my
problems are too big forrecovery.
And I really believed that,uh-huh.
That I am beyond aid.
(51:13):
And then I got back to recoveryand my everything started to
change.
I'll never forget it a meetingthat I one of the first meetings
I went to when I was newly back,and I happened to mention that I
hadn't been drinking for 19years, but I I must have sounded
just pitiful because a guy cameup to me that was relatively new
(51:36):
and he said, if nine if that'swhat 19 years looks like, I
don't want it.
SPEAKER_01 (51:40):
Yeah.
I hear you.
No, I do because it's one of thereasons it's one of the reasons
that the podcast I createdexists.
It's one of the reasons I'vemade different choices
throughout the last severalyears, is because I got into
recovery.
And at the time, I got into itfor survival.
(52:01):
I was not going to make it if Ididn't do something differently.
And I needed that mindset at thebeginning.
And then something interestinghappened, which is as I started
to do work and lean in andthings started to change, I, you
know, dug out of the hole that Iwas in.
If you think of the earth, likeI was under, you know, in this
(52:23):
giant, you know, trash hole anddug out of that to the point
where I'm on steady the horizon,even keeled ground, right?
And then I sort of looked aroundand was like, now what?
Because it's like at a certainpoint when you've done all the
steps and you know, givenservice in all these different
(52:44):
places and been to therapy forall this different stuff, I
started to look around and waslike, well, I got into this for
survival, right?
I needed to do that.
But now, like, now I'm here andI'm really interested in
thriving, right?
Right.
And so what does that look like?
And how do I take this?
I gave myself a gift of astarting over and a new
(53:06):
beginning.
What do I want to do with that?
And how do I create and buildfrom here, right?
If I was at a at the main level,how do I build?
There's mountains in thedistance.
What do I want to create?
What do I want to um lean intoor grow or contribute towards in
a way that keeps my heartbeatvery much alive?
(53:27):
Um, but those questions haveplagued me in the best way of
and I've watched, I've lookedaround rooms and seen people
sort of they got to the evenkeel level, which is great, and
then they kind of stayed thereand I think clutched on to like
this is what I have to keepdoing.
Um, and I I don't discredit thatthat's also valuable, but I have
(53:51):
the question of and like andwhat?
And then what else?
You know, what else like the theampersand symbol of like, and
what else can I create from hereto go build a life that is very
much alive because that's reallywhat I'm here for.
But that's it's been such abeautiful space to be in, of but
(54:13):
it started from watching what Ididn't want.
I I and was like, what am Istaying sober for if that's it?
You know, I I'm not interestedin it.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I found myself there aftermy kids left the nest.
Okay, yeah.
I was like, uh oh now, yeah,because that's not your purpose,
right?
Yes, my purpose was raising twogood human beings, and I loved
(54:49):
being a mom.
And when I when the empty nesthit, I was not okay with it and
lost.
And it very much was of okay,what what now?
SPEAKER_01 (55:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:02):
And I'm I'm still navigating that, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
Well, so there's a question, I mean, what has the
process for you been like ofreinvention?
SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
Well, you know, I think the reinvention, you know,
I agree with you.
I think a lot of it has beenwatching people around me and
seeing what I do and do notwant.
And just like embracing my age.
I don't, I'm tired of watchingwomen my age trying not to be
(55:35):
our age.
Uh yeah, trying to defy theaging process.
I'm like, no.
So my my reinvention has been aresult of the brain injury, like
I said, and embracing the factthat I am an artist, even though
you know, people call me that,and I'm like, no, no, I'm not.
I'm like, you can't call me anartist, but I am an artist.
And I think it's embracingthose, you know, I've always
(56:00):
I've always had that impostersyndrome, and that is what I
think has fueled my desire nowto just be so authentically
myself.
I'm I'm not an imposter.
I I truly do things.
I'm an artist because I do art.
(56:22):
It isn't because, you know, Isell my paintings for a million
dollars, type of thing.
SPEAKER_02 (56:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:29):
That is not what constitutes an artist.
And so so much of it is trulyembracing everything that I do
and recognizing that I do a lot.
You know, I I am a seriousmeditator.
I am a I am an artist and I amI'm good at what I do with my
(56:52):
job, and I'm a good mom, and Ilove my, I'm a good aunt, you
know, just really owning it.
I think that is the essence ofreinventing yourself is owning
who you are.
SPEAKER_01 (57:06):
Yeah.
Well, and something I've said toI said to someone else not that
long ago, because I ran into it,was like I run into the who am I
to do this thing?
Who am I to do that?
Who am I to be that person?
And you know, what qualitates,quantifies, whatever.
What puts me in this of beingable to do that?
And I something I was reading atsome point asked me the
(57:29):
question, and so I had to asksomeone else, like, who are you
not to?
Exactly.
Almost like, how dare you notshare gifts that you have and
wisdom that you've learned whenyou could be helping people?
What a disservice you're doingby not doing that.
Like who are you to not go begreat?
(57:50):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, and then one other thing Iwanted to say that you said
earlier that I liked you broughtup that in the healthcare field
that being an addict or anaddiction is a weakness or still
seen as a weakness.
And I when you said it, I hadsuch a reaction, like in my
(58:15):
body, and my first reaction wasto stand on a chair and argue
because I genuinely think thatbeing an addict is one of my
biggest strengths.
Yes.
And not the functionality ofjust being an addict, but being
a person who has acknowledgedthat, accepted it, and made
(58:37):
different choices to walkthrough it and look behind me at
how did I get there and thenstand where I am now and say,
who do I want to become?
And actually move through thatis a hell of a deal.
And it's just one of the thingsthat I think has lent itself to
who I have become, who I keepbecoming.
(58:57):
And it's so beautiful.
And none of that would havehappened if I wasn't an addict.
And so I think there's so muchsigna around, you know, that
you're a failure or you can'tget your shit together, or you
know, like a poison of whatanybody will say about that in
terms of stigma.
It's something I just profoundlydisagree with.
SPEAKER_00 (59:20):
Oh, absolutely.
And what I've learned about allof that is it's a when addiction
is judged, it's because it'sfeared.
Yeah.
People that haven't been throughit can't imagine going through
it.
Sure.
And so they judge it.
Yeah.
(59:40):
And that, you know, now where Iwork now, everybody knows I'm
sober.
Yeah.
You know, I I finally, I mean,I'm I'm all of that stuff is
gone.
All of that, oh, I can't sharethat I'm sober.
I can't handle the judgment.
Judge away.
Yeah.
You know, do what you need todo.
(01:00:02):
Judge me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:02):
I'm I'm okay with that.
Yeah.
Um, I agree with you.
I'm very much like this is who Iam.
I talk about it.
I'm not big on preaching ortelling other people what to do
ever.
Oh heck no.
But definitely am I like it'sjust everybody knows that.
And I talk about it.
And what I've loved, one of myfavorite parts of it has been
(01:00:24):
speaking and just living it outloud.
I don't necessarily talk aboutit all the time, but I just sort
of live it and having people.
I've had the most magicalexperiences with people that
will find me on a random day inthe corner of a room and be
like, hey, can can we talk?
And there are people thatwouldn't have necessarily walked
into a meeting or a room.
(01:00:45):
But because I do what I do, andyou can witness that.
Something about that is aninvitation to just tell the
truth.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:55):
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Letting go of all that shame.
There's no shame in it at all.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:03):
No, it really, but it's it was a process because
there wasn't a beginning, right?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:10):
Um, I had shame about it.
Then there was relief when Ifound that there was people like
me.
Then at one point I had a I hadan experience in a meeting where
I I thought I wasn't bad enough.
I was like almost the oppositejudgment of like, man, these
people are way worse than me.
I should have done worse things.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:28):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:29):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:31):
Yes.
Yep.
And that's where I talk a lotabout the first step.
That, you know, unfortunately,the second part of the first
step being, and our lives hadbecome unmanageable.
We tie that to yet.
We don't, we forget that justnot being able to control our
drinking is unmanageable enough.
(01:01:52):
Yeah.
Because that's why a lot ofpeople, that's why I didn't stay
sober, is I thought, I'm not badenough.
I need to go back out there andaccumulate some things before I
come back in here.
And no, it's not necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:06):
Yeah.
And it's I think I I get ontangent sometimes about being
high functioning, because it'slike if you are, if you can hold
a job, you know, I didn't, Ishould have probably lost my
last job from drinking, but Ididn't.
But if you can, you know, hold ajob, you hold, you have
whatever, a seat somewhere orhistory of of running things,
(01:02:28):
or, you know, any kind ofleadership seat, or depending on
the area of work that you're in,being high functioning, being
able to get shit done and dothings, and also being a closet
addict.
Um, it's like like you said,there's a duality there that I
think people don't see it asmuch because you're not showing
(01:02:48):
it, but it's almost worsebecause it's like you're getting
away with it and they're notbeing held accountable because
everyone's like, What do youmean she's not like that?
Yeah, you know, and that sort ofvision of in my brain what an
alcoholic was growing up waslike a guy under a bridge with a
bottle in a paper bag orsomething, and it's like I
(01:03:11):
didn't look anything like that.
Exactly.
Um but it And now most peopledon't in in games.
Right.
Yeah.
Um and it really can just beanybody.
And I try to work on that too,because I think um you know,
whether it's whether you're pooror wealthy or whatever, you get
(01:03:33):
judgment from both sides.
Even people I met somebody onetime who was very wealthy, and
you you can kind of people putjudgment on that too, like, oh,
well, you just have money so youcan go to therapy and solve all
this.
And it's like I remember talkingto him, and he was so broken
from having parents who justlike paid for him to do
(01:03:56):
everything, but he just he'sthey threw money at him since he
was little, but they weren'tpresent, and there were so many
other problems in there thatlike no matter which side of the
train tracks that you're on orthat you come from, there's
different problems in bothspaces, and they're all valid.
Absolutely, absolutely.
(01:04:16):
Well, this was the mostbeautiful thing.
I'm so glad that you hopped onwith me tonight.
Yeah, this was fun.
It was fun talking to you.
I just love that I got to spendtime getting a little bit more,
you know, to know you than Ihave before.
Yeah, yeah, it's been a lot offun.
So thank you so much for forjoining me and I just absolutely
(01:04:38):
your wisdom.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
leave a quick rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
It helps more people find theshow.
If you want more of me, head onover to nataniallison.com and
enter your name and email forbehind the scenes updates in
(01:05:00):
between shows.
New episodes air every Tuesday.
We'll see you next week.
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
Well, the stories here arehonest and heartfelt.
They're not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
medical paper.
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.
(00:49):
Today's guest is Ann Taylor.
Anne is a sage of wisdom that Ihave had the privilege of
sharing space with for a fewyears now.
I'm always aiming to be quietand listen whenever people who
have really shown up and beenthrough many life lessons before
me are around, and she is one ofthose people.
In this episode, we get intoembracing change as you age,
(01:11):
transforming diversity intopurpose, and how transitions can
become opportunities forreinvention.
I hope you enjoy the show.
Anne, I'm so happy that you'rehere.
(01:31):
The way that that we startedwith this conversation, why I
wanted to talk to you, isbecause we were on a meeting not
that long ago.
And for all the times that wehave been in conversation with
each other, you sort of saidsomething at the end of the
meeting.
And I was like, wait, no, let'stalk more about that.
Because we'd never talked aboutit before.
And what you said was speakingto the concept of aging,
(01:53):
specifically differently thanyou maybe learned growing up,
and doing so much more empoweredand more powerfully than um than
I think we're taught societywith.
So I wanted to know what doesthat mean to you?
SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Well, I think, especially now that I I raised
two sons, but now I have twodaughters-in-law.
And I can see already and I hearthem already talk about body
image and aging, even thoughyou're they're young.
And it made me realize just howhard our culture is on us
(02:36):
embracing who we are at everystage of life.
And now that I am going to beturning 65, um I really want to
change the way that I myselflook at myself as an older woman
and change the way the youngwomen in my lives, including
(03:00):
yourself, look at themselves inthe aging process because it
really is an amazing thing toage and to become wiser.
And it's natural that the bodyis going to absorb that
experience.
And so I want everybody to wearit proudly.
SPEAKER_01 (03:21):
So what do you think?
How has what does the past looklike?
What did you grow up learningthat aging meant, or what do you
think you're seeing out thereright now that is not
particularly helpful?
SPEAKER_00 (03:32):
Well, I grew up in a in an attractive family, and um
looks were just way tooimportant, you know, kind of
that concept of as long as youlook good on the outside, then
everything must be okay on theinside.
Ah and that that just isn't thecase as we all learn as we move
(03:56):
forward in life, that that thatis not the case at all, and
definitely not in my particularcase.
And so I want us to all put downthe um need to have the world
perceive us in a way that wedon't really feel.
(04:20):
And so my path to that is just alot of hard work.
I no longer there's there's toomany important things going on
in the world, there's too manythings that I want to do in my
life that I do not want the wayI look to get in the way of.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:37):
I'm curious if you felt like that your value or
your worth was held in the waythat you looked at any point in
time.
Oh yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Yes.
Absolutely.
I I especially um early in mycareer, it mattered a lot
because I worked in healthcare.
I l worked with a lot of malesin healthcare, and the way I
(05:07):
presented myself absolutelymattered.
SPEAKER_01 (05:11):
Do you think you made different decisions about
how you presented yourself inorder to try to either gain an
advantage somewhere or like moveforward throughout the work
space?
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
No, because I ended up more in the nonprofit world.
And thankfully it doesn't matterquite as much.
But um, you know, we've mademore progress in the last, I've
been in my career for 37 years,and we've made more progress,
women in the workplace,especially in healthcare,
(05:46):
because women in healthcare uhit's become the norm.
And so it doesn't matter quiteas much.
But I myself was aware that theway I presented myself did
matter.
I don't think I was somebodythat did it on purpose.
(06:07):
I didn't purposely dress myselfin a way to attract or to move
ahead, but I definitely lookedthe part in terms of whatever
job I was doing.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
Do you think that you've passed that along, or do
you think have you watched that,like you said, in your
children's experience thatthey've picked up on that?
Or do you think the world haschanged a little bit since like
time has passed and they've justgotten society?
SPEAKER_00 (06:36):
I'm not sure it was passed on to my sons.
That would be a reallyinteresting conversation to have
with them.
It's true.
Um, it really would.
Yeah.
Uh they definitely they aren'tas worried about the way they
look uh at at all as I was, theway they dress, except when, you
(06:57):
know, they're in a prprofessional environment or
whatever.
Um I think we as a society havepassed it along, and I've been
part of that.
Yeah.
I have been part of that.
They I I work in a very casualenvironment now, and I remember
(07:18):
at first thinking, oh gosh, wedon't people need to dress more
professionally or whatever.
I had a I had kind of a I callit the snob factor around it.
Where we serve a population ofpeople that don't have a lot.
(07:42):
And so we like to meet our thepeople we serve where they are,
and so we naturally dress andpresent ourselves in a more
relatable way.
And now I fully embrace it andlove it.
SPEAKER_01 (07:56):
Um what if anything, what would you have done
differently?
Could you go backwards?
SPEAKER_00 (08:01):
I don't I don't think I would have conformed,
but I say that, but I'm not surethat's really true because it
was all it was required at thattime to conform.
But in my personal life, Iabsolutely would have done
things differently.
(08:22):
I have spent my adulthood umtrying to be a certain size.
You know, I've always colored myhair, which I'm no longer doing
to be a particular color that Ithought thought it needed to be.
I wish I would have justembraced my essence from the
very beginning rather thanfighting against it, which is
(08:45):
what I feel like I've done.
SPEAKER_01 (08:46):
Yeah, I love that you said that I had a, I
remember when my mom, I don'tremember how old she was when
she did this, but she used todye her hair regularly, right?
To cover up the grays, so tospeak.
And there came a time in which Iremember it was because she used
to do it all the time.
There came a time when she waslike, I'm I'm done with this.
(09:07):
And she let it go, right?
And let it grow out.
And to this day, just the mostbeautiful salt and pepper silver
hair that I've ever seennaturally on someone that people
people pay to have that done.
And her hair was just doing it,you know, the way it grew out,
and it changed over time and itgot lighter.
(09:27):
Even as I've gotten older, um, Iused to dye my hair just for
fun.
And even now, there's one colorthat I do like to dye it
occasionally, but I've I foundit was maybe, I don't know,
three or four years ago, I foundsilver in my hair.
And I thought it was the mostbeautiful thing.
And I felt like I'd earned mystripes somehow.
(09:50):
And so I won't won't dye my hairbecause I like that.
But it's not a popularconversation for sure in the
world of like, you know, no,it's it's not.
SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
I'm you know, I'm growing my hair out now to be
its natural color, which I hadno idea what it was, right?
Um, at all.
And just going through theprocess of um growing your hair
hair out to its natural color isa humbling process because it's
not gonna look good for a while.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that's really goodfor us.
(10:25):
Yeah.
I think it's a really it's ait's an important process to go
through because it takes awhile.
I mean, it's gonna take I'vebeen working on it now for about
six months.
I've got at least probablyanother year because I have
longer hair.
And it's a really humblingprocess that that I really am
(10:49):
enjoying because it's kind oflet helping me let go of it all.
SPEAKER_01 (10:54):
Oh, that's really beautiful.
In addition to like the physicalpart of your hair or body,
whatnot, are there other partsof aging that you feel like have
come along with that whereyou're also letting go of other
things in addition to thephysical part?
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
Yeah, I think naturally as we age, we care
less about what people think ofus.
Yeah.
You know, the what I findinteresting is the pressure that
I have felt the most over thelast 10, 20 years is my own
pressure, not other people'spressure, but my own.
These expectations I have ofmyself.
(11:33):
You know, for instance, I'vealways been very athletic.
And and as you age, you know,you're just not able to keep up
quite as much.
And um, and right now I have ahip that needs to be replaced.
So I have to sit around a lot.
And instead of fighting againstit, I'm trying really hard to
(11:55):
just embrace it and know that mybody has served me so
beautifully throughout my life.
I've given birth to two sons, Isurvived you know, a very bad
accident that resulted in atraumatic brain injury, and my
body has taken very good care ofme, and now it's my turn to take
(12:16):
care of it.
SPEAKER_01 (12:18):
That was really beautifully said.
I hear that, and I I'm enjoyingthis so much because I'm in
obviously like you know, adifferent decade of my life than
you are, but having brought upin the society that tells you
you should or shouldn't dosomething and watching,
especially as I hit likemilestone birthdays, I remember
watching friends have a reallyhard time when people started
(12:40):
turning 30.
Yes, that that was like a theywere not okay with that.
And yeah, I think something thatis a little bit different for
me, and I know you'll understandthis as a human in recovery.
For me, I love birthdays.
And that is because, again, formy life and the way it's gone
the last several years, my lifehas gotten better as I've gotten
(13:02):
older, right?
And it wasn't always that thatway, but the last handful of
years, I love it because I likewho I am, how I'm showing up for
things, where I ask questions orchallenge, like, do I have to do
it this way just becauseeverybody always did?
But I've really enjoyed aging,but I've found that that is not
always a popular conversation.
SPEAKER_00 (13:24):
Yes.
Yeah, I I think the wisdom thatwe gain can receive a lot of
pushback.
Yeah.
Because when you no longer careas much what other people think
of you, you just naturally speakyour mind more.
Um, and that's not alwaysembraced or accepted.
But also I just don't care asmuch about that.
(13:48):
I'm I'm a very nice person.
I don't offend people, you know,I when I say I don't care what
people think, I don't care whatthey think about who I am as a
person, but I'm a good person.
But if I'm not always at ahundred percent, which is what
we often expect of ourselves,I'm okay with that.
(14:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:11):
Um, which is really interesting too.
Perfectionism is another thingthat I've run into in my own
life many times, and having tolike repractice the letting go
of things when I've spent yearstrying to get everything right.
It's just been reallyinteresting to try to navigate
and to undo the things that I'velearned.
Right.
And like even you said whatpeople think about me.
(14:33):
Like there is, there's a selectnumber of people that I care
about what they think because Ivalue an opinion where I write
their view on the world, and Iknow that they'll, you know,
call me on my shit, or they'llreally show up and meet me where
I am, which is really beautiful.
But I think what you're sayinggenerally, like I've let go of
(14:54):
more than I used to, for sure,in terms of I'm gonna do this
thing or say this thing, andjust be okay, even if you are
uncomfortable in what I justsaid.
Right.
And you do a really good job ofthat.
It's one of the things I loveabout you.
We talked about that not thatlong ago, was just being a
(15:14):
person in the room that pointsout the thing or the elephant in
the room, not as a as a badthing, but just like, hey, are
we gonna talk about this?
SPEAKER_00 (15:23):
Well, and I think that's the that's the age, you
know, that's me being older withexperience.
And that is what I wanteverybody to embrace about
themselves, because fine Ifinally do have some years to
back up my experience, whichthen you know leads to a little
(15:47):
bit of wisdom, a little bit ofsaginess that um I find myself
sometimes, especially quitefrankly, in the group that you
and I got to know each other in.
Sometimes I would find myselfnot wanting to say something
because, you know, uh, how is itgonna be taken?
(16:10):
But then it's also like, well, Ihave the right to say those
things.
I think you reach an age whereyou've kind of earned that right
to express in whatever way thatis helpful.
SPEAKER_01 (16:27):
Yeah.
Well, and I wonder, like, whatwas it just from being a person
who at one point in time youwould have been like the younger
person in the room, right?
Whether it's a work, whateverwhere you're the you're the new
kid or you're the younger personthere, to like growing into an
age where you are the sage, youknow, you are older than most of
(16:47):
the people in whatever roomyou're in, in terms of, like you
said, at work or whatever.
Like I have this even, we weretalking the other day, one of
the girls that is on my teamtold me her birthday.
And it was like, you know, I waslike, you were born when?
You know, like we're not even inthe same, we're not even close,
but it was just sort of shockingto hear the number.
(17:09):
And yeah, you know, and I'm not,I mean, I'm 38.
And so in the like, you know,wherever I am, she's like 22.
I don't know.
Um, but it was just I went frombeing where I was the new kid to
now, you know, I have morewisdom, or people come to me for
stuff, or I'm in charge ofthings.
But it's like the room moves andit shifts, and I go from being
(17:32):
the newcomer over time tosuddenly it sort of happened and
I wasn't looking.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Right.
It's so true.
I have that happen all the time,Natanya, where I find out how
old somebody is and I'm like, ohmy God, I I can almost be their
grandmother.
unknown (17:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
It was one thing to say, I can be, you know, I could
be their mother.
That applies to a a lot, but nowI'm reaching the age where I
could almost be a grandmother.
Not quite, not to the ages atwork, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:05):
What has been the hardest part of that for you?
SPEAKER_00 (18:07):
Of the age differences?
SPEAKER_01 (18:09):
Yeah, of just changing over time and being in
a space where it I think we gofrom my experience has been that
I kind of looked around the roomfor a long time, and someone
always knew more than I did orwas older than me, whether it's
an older sibling or a parent,like so you're following.
And then at some point, I canremember being, I was my second
(18:31):
degree was in an education.
And so I was a teacher for alittle a short amount of time.
And I remember being in aclassroom and someone came and
knocked on the door and waslooking for the teacher.
And I looked around the room,like, because I it it took me a
minute to realize that that wasme, you know, because not that
long ago I had been in college.
unknown (18:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:52):
It went from being a college student to suddenly now
I'm now I'm the person at thefront of the room.
And sort of the the mental shiftthat that takes from being like,
I'm not following, I'm notfollowing everybody anymore.
Now I'm the person, and peoplelooking for someone to speak or
to say anything.
And I would be like, don't lookat me, you know, and now I found
(19:14):
myself raising my hand andsaying, I'll go first.
Yeah.
But I'm curious what that hasbeen like for you, if you had a
similar experience or not.
SPEAKER_00 (19:25):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Um, I think through every decadeI've had that experience where
I'm kind of like, oh my gosh.
I think right now it'sespecially in my face because
there is an older group of us atmy workplace, they're all
retiring in the next year, agood majority of them.
(19:47):
Well, I'm not going to beretiring for a while.
And I'm kind of I can't believethat I could possibly be the
literally the oldest person atthe company.
Yeah.
Because I think the part,Natanya, that is the wildest is
you just don't feel your age.
(20:08):
I mean, I I cannot believe thatI'm gonna be 65 because I still
feel like in my mind I'm a I'm a20-something, you know.
I I still have spunk and I stillum love to go to concerts and do
(20:31):
all the things that I've alwaysenjoyed doing.
And I think we always think thatat some point we're gonna sit
down in a chair and not get up,type of thing.
And I I just do not feel my ageat all.
At all.
Mostly, and I think it's kind offunny, mostly emotionally and
(20:53):
mentally, I just don't feel myage.
Um I feel much younger.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
I love that.
And I think it made me think ofphotographs that I've seen of
like, I don't know, mygrandparents at ages, and I feel
like the age they are in thephotograph, they look so much
older.
Mm-hmm.
What people I think look like atthose ages now.
And I associate that withslowing down and all the things.
(21:19):
And I hear you, because I like Idon't feel that way about you
either.
You know, I don't, not even fora second.
Um but I do think that like mymom had she retired this year.
And she'll probably kill me forsaying this on air, but she's
she's 78.
(21:40):
And like she just like she when25 happened, I can remember
friends of hers asking her, Oh,when are you gonna retire?
And she's like, I'm I'm not.
But she likes to work, she's avery engaged human in her life.
I think she liked the place thatshe was at, right?
And so she just kept going.
And then and it's socializationfor her.
(22:02):
There's a lot of, you know, shejust liked her job.
And then after that last year'swent on and she couldn't do the
you know, 40 hours a weekanymore.
That company just worked reallywell with her in terms of like
at one point she went down tothree days a week and was that
for a couple of years.
I love that, you know, and thentwo, and then the last I don't
know how many, but the last yearor two, she's been down to one
(22:23):
day a week.
So she still went in one day aweek and you know, got
everything that she needed doneand helped the other people and
whatnot.
And then finally this year,she's like, I think, I think I'm
good.
I love that.
But it was what was interestingabout it though, was that we had
conversations around just peersof hers that maybe didn't
(22:46):
understand her for doing that orsort of questioned or would
continually bring it up, like,oh, so when are you gonna
retire?
Like waiting for her to tofollow the status quo.
And I think when she didn't, itmade people uncomfortable
sometimes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (23:04):
Well, and I think I've had this battle of I'm kind
of envious of my friends thatare able to retire, you know,
and travel and do all that.
But then there's this other partof me that I don't I'll be I'll
probably be like your mother.
I can't imagine I'll either beworking or just volunteering a
(23:30):
ton.
Because I can't imagine nothaving somewhere to go every
day.
That to me is just I can'timagine it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:42):
Yes.
And like I said, she alsoenjoyed it.
And you know, when she retired,one of the things that we talked
about was socialization becauseshe's, you know, some people I
think are more extroverted andthey go out in the world and
join clubs and do this thing anddo that thing.
And she's always been verycomfortable being by herself.
She has always got projects andlists and things to do around
(24:03):
the house, and she keeps herselfbusier than any person I've ever
met.
But and also like you still haveto be around people so you don't
just isolate.
Right.
Um, so that was another wholething we talked about of like
making sure how do you how doyou take care of that, you know?
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:19):
Right.
Yeah, it's I mean, that's one ofthe biggest things.
I I look at my mother, she's 94,and my dad just died five years
ago, and she keeps herselfincredibly busy and has a very
sharp mind and everything.
And I know that if she thinkabout how her life could be
without my dad, and thatloneliness and isolation that
(24:44):
you can so easily slip into asan older person, especially if
you're if you don't aren't in arelationship, it can happen
really easily.
And it doesn't bode well for afor a healthy life.
Have you ever talked to herabout all this?
(25:04):
My mom?
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Oh yeah.
What is her what are herthoughts on it?
Just the kind of on aging?
SPEAKER_00 (25:13):
Yeah.
Well, my mom has always been oneof the most incredibly power
positive people you'll evermeet.
She just always has.
She's just has this this outlookon life.
She doesn't have she doesn'teven have many fears.
You know, I've always been thisperson that as a little girl,
(25:34):
you know, I was afraid to fly,and and she just was like, oh,
it's no big, you know,everything with her has always
been um very positive.
And so even with her aging, umshe's sh, she's been okay with
it because she's able to seethat she's had this incredible
(25:58):
life, and she and my dad weremarried for 65 years, and um,
you know, she's just got a lotof of joy in her life.
She's frustrated physically,that's the hardest part about
the aging for somebody that ather age that has such a sharp
(26:19):
mind.
At 94, your body's just notgoing to keep up.
It just, you know, it's it'shard.
And so she's starting to loseher vision and uh her hearing,
and and she's got limitations tosome degree now, but but she
she's got a really positiveoutlook on it, and part of that
is she was an occupationaltherapist, and she worked with
(26:44):
seniors her entire career.
Okay.
So she kind of has always beenprepared for what's gonna happen
or what could happen, and how tonot let things happen, not let
yourself deteriorate.
SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
So we'll go to the reverse for a second.
What do you think your childrenfeel about it?
About me aging?
Just about well, aging forthemselves.
Do you see them in the same kindof that you used to be?
SPEAKER_00 (27:14):
Or what well, yeah.
My older son turned, he's 31now, and so 30 was traumatic.
And my younger son is gonna be30 in December.
And they're just, you know, ohmy gosh, I'm turning 30.
Is this where I thought I wasgonna be?
And so on and so forth.
(27:35):
And so yeah, they're they'revery much, they both were
freaking out about the age of30.
Yeah.
You know, and I can't say tothem, I always hated it when I
was freaking out, and peoplewould say to me, Oh, you're a
baby.
So I don't say that to them, butI'm thinking it.
I'm like, you know, my goodness,you've got so much ahead of you.
(28:01):
And I think, Natanya, that's oneof the most important things
I've learned in the agingprocess is, you know, we're
blessed to age.
My sister died at the age of 54.
Um, I'm blessed to still behere.
And each decade, actually, Ihave found each decade to be
(28:26):
more enjoyable.
I love that.
Because you really are cominginto your own.
You really do, I really do knowwho I am now.
It's taken a long time, but Ireally know who I am.
And I know for years I want Iquestioned that.
(28:46):
Who am I?
What am I supposed to you know?
Yeah.
I really And then go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (28:53):
It's making me, I felt that way for a long time.
I felt very floundering, andwhat do I want to do with my
life?
And I was I was frustrated withthat because I'm like, I'm smart
and I know things.
Why do I feel so disconnectedfrom everything?
And a lot of choices that Imade, not that many, you know, I
think I was 32 when I gotdivorced.
(29:14):
I had I had essentially like amidlife crisis.
I was just 32, you know.
Um, but it's one of the bestthings that's ever happened to
me because somewhere in thatlike breaking of all of the
things, when I lifted my headout of the ground and asked
myself some of those really bigquestions, it was like, this
(29:35):
isn't working.
I sort of followed the playbookthat I thought I was supposed to
follow to go live this versionof my life.
And that that left me, you know,on a kitchen floor with a bottle
of Jack Daniels and an Oracledeck.
And I said, Well, now what?
You know, and then I got up offthe floor and got divorced, and
(29:58):
then a couple years later, gotSober when all of those things
in that journey was reallychallenging because it's not
pretty, right?
We'll go back to the part ofwhat people see.
It was really hard for me tostand in a room and say, I'm
gonna end this thing becauseit's so not good for me.
(30:19):
And I'm gonna break apart thevery life that I just spent all
of my years building.
Yep.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:26):
And those experiences, you know, I I've
never, to me, the whole conceptof midlife crisis, it's not just
one event.
That's that's the biggest thingthat I think we have to prepare
ourselves for when we have theopportunity to age.
We're gonna have so many ofthose experiences that wake us
(30:47):
up and kind of redirect wherewe're going in our lives.
You know, when I had a traumaticbrain injury at the age of 52,
54, I can't remember, 52.
Uh, I was running so fast.
I was a single mom and I wasworking really hard and
(31:09):
providing for my boys and tryingto, you know, just all this
stuff.
I was running so hard and sofast that it was almost like
that brain injury was inevitableand necessary because I had no
choice but to completely stopand heal.
(31:29):
And the brain injury is what ledme into my art that I do and my
meditation that I do.
It completely transformed mylife.
And so I think that's the otherthing that I hope as we all age
that we don't fear what mayhappen.
SPEAKER_01 (31:50):
Yeah.
Well, and there's a there's a Imean, a great deal of surrender
required.
Like you said, especially if youhad a if you had a TVI, and then
that really, you know, sometimesI I'll tell people or I feel
like I have the experience of ifI'm ever doing what you said and
(32:10):
like going too fast and notslowing down and not taking time
for myself, I'll get sick andalways think it's it's just like
a sign that like you're notlistening and you're not gonna
slow down, so we're gonna slowyou down.
Um and I've I've thought thatalso with injuries, just just
things like that, where like ifif you don't course correct,
(32:35):
sometimes the universe will doit for you.
But it's so interesting thatthat ended up being like what
birthed your art.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Yeah, I you know, I feel the same way as you,
Natanya, whenever I get those.
I think you have to be open tothe having the experience be
perceived that way.
That because I will go so hard,so hard.
And my boys were even like, Mom,you needed that.
(33:04):
And thankfully I survived it.
Right.
But um it was a divineexperience because it comp it
completely transformed how I howI operated in my life.
Because I you you get on thattreadmill and you don't even
realize how fast you're running.
(33:25):
Yeah.
And and then you also don't knowhow to stop.
You're afraid to stop.
I can't stop because what ifthis happens, or what if that
happens, and then it's done foryou, and you have no choice but
to face it.
SPEAKER_01 (33:38):
Yeah.
How long, how long of anexperience was that from you,
like from the time it happeneduntil you would consider
yourself to be recovered.
SPEAKER_00 (33:49):
Mostly recovered, probably a good six years.
Oh wow, okay.
TBIs are weird, and I I knowthat's not what this is about.
We're go wherever you go.
Yeah, TBIs are an a a weirdthing because you know you're
different, but you don't knowhow to explain to other people
(34:12):
that you are.
Like, um I I definitely strugglewith attention deficit disorder
now as a result of the braininjury because of where I was
impacted.
Uh but here's the thing becauseof my age and because I'm
postmenopause, it also could bethose factors.
(34:36):
Okay.
So I don't know if it's age,brain injury, you know,
postmenopausal or all of them.
You know, I I I have weird,well, one thing I do know is a
result of the brain injury is Iused to have beautiful
handwriting and I don't anymore.
(34:57):
It's like my brain and my handwork differently.
SPEAKER_01 (35:00):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
Um, that's the most tangible thing I can grab on to.
But brain fatigue is a bigthing.
Like if I'm in too loud of aroom for too long, like I love
concerts, but I can never go toindoor concerts.
I have they have to be outdoors.
Otherwise, my brain can'tprocess and it exhausts me.
(35:23):
Things like that.
That's that for the most partpart, I'm you know, I'm
recovered.
Yeah.
But there will always be thelingering things.
SPEAKER_01 (35:31):
Um, were there any other side effects of that whole
experience?
Like relationship?
Yeah.
Relationship, anything else thatchanged from that?
SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
I lost my sense of smell and and uh uh taste for a
long time, and they said it wasnever going to come back, but it
did, and I think that's becauseof the meditation that I did.
I'm convinced of that.
Whether that's true or not, Idon't know.
I was I was with my lateex-husband the day that it
(36:02):
happened, and so he he and wewere already divorced by that
time, he was my knight inshining armor and made sure I
was okay.
And so that kind of was anexperience that enriched our our
relationship as parents to ourkids.
My boys were in their teens, andit was something that they just
(36:23):
they struggled with very much tosee their mom in the in the way
that I was.
SPEAKER_01 (36:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
Because I shuffled for a long, you know, for
several months.
I shuffled, I couldn't pick upmy feet.
Just weird stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (36:37):
Yes, yeah, there's a lot of problems with that.
SPEAKER_00 (36:40):
Yeah.
Man, I didn't know any of thisabout you.
Oh, yeah.
It's it's one of those things inlife that most of the people in
my life now truly didn't know mebefore the brain injury.
So there's no way to see itreally a difference.
My boys noticed th differencesin me.
(37:02):
Yeah.
But most people are they wouldthey're like, I would never know
that you'd had a brain injury.
And it's like, well, no, becauseyou know me now.
Right.
You didn't know me when I waslike this, and you know, on the
treadmill, just running as fastas I could and talked really
(37:22):
fast and just kind of was notI'm calm now.
Yeah.
I'm calm, and I wasn't before.
SPEAKER_01 (37:29):
You're very steady, like just as in a room, which
I've always found to be calmingand relaxing.
I'm curious, are you would yoube up for me talking or asking
you about recovery?
Absolutely.
Okay.
I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
Uh absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:45):
How long, how long have you been in and around
recovery?
Because I don't actually know.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
35 years.
SPEAKER_01 (37:51):
I thought it was a long time.
Okay.
Yeah.
Um, what was that like for you35 years ago to begin with?
Again, back then, recoverywasn't as big of a word as it is
now.
Not as commonly talked about.
There were not all of the, youknow, programs and
(38:12):
extracurriculars and activity,you know, just things and
connections and places togather.
What was that like back then?
SPEAKER_00 (38:19):
Well, really, the only thing back then were the
12-step programs.
Um I that I don't remember therebeing any other long.
I was an intensive outpatientand did inpatient at one at one
point for a brief stint.
But in terms of the now there'sjust so many options, and there
(38:41):
was none of that.
And I'll never forget my firstAA meeting.
I walked in and and um I had arespectable job during the day.
And so it was in 19, I think,eighty-seven or eighty-eight
that I first walked in.
You know, I'm in this one of myprofessional outfits for my job,
and I walk into this room, andI'm by far the youngest, and I'm
(39:06):
one of just maybe two or threewomen.
Everybody's smoking like achimney, drinking gallons of
coffee, and I sit down and I'mlike, my God, what am I doing
here?
I do not belong here.
When I hear things like, I'vespilled more than you ever
drank, type of thing.
And it's a ma it's a miracle Istayed.
(39:27):
Yeah.
And I didn't, I didn't get soberright away, but I have I've
always been part of AA.
It's still part of my life.
Well, that's not true.
I I went a long stint withoutdoing anything, I just didn't
drink, but it's always been apart of my life because I have
no idea why I hung in there.
(39:49):
Oh, that was my next question.
Like, why did you say?
I have well, I knew I knew timewas up.
I was a chronic drunk driver.
Yeah.
And my biggest fear was hurtingsomebody when I was drunk
driving.
I didn't care that much aboutme, but terrified I was gonna
(40:11):
hurt somebody.
And and I just became thisperson, you know, I was one
person by day and a totallydifferent personality by night.
Uh-huh.
Because I was always inblackouts.
And the two worlds were startingto collide.
I was no longer able to keepthem separate.
Yeah.
And I, you know, I was losing, Iwas losing my my soul.
(40:36):
You know, I've always said thataddiction is a soul sickness to
its very core.
And my soul was so sick.
And I somehow, but alcoholismwas not present in our family at
that time.
I was the only one.
So I was like, I'm such a loser.
Look at me.
(40:58):
I'm the only one in my familythat is an alcoholic.
Well, it that's not the way it'splayed out.
Um, and there's others for surethat are in my family that are
in recovery or not.
And uh, but at the time I justthought, oh my God, I'm, you
(41:18):
know, when I first came in, Iwas 27.
I finally got sober at 29.
SPEAKER_02 (41:22):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (41:23):
And um I just remember being focused.
My grandmother was 98 years oldwhen I was getting sober.
And I remember being obsessedwith the fact that if I lived as
long as she did, I wouldn't beable to drink for 71 years.
Yeah.
But I kept going, even though Iand and here's the thing: maybe
(41:46):
I didn't look like anybody inthat room because a lot of them
were, you know, thestereotypical alcoholic of that
time, but I related to how theyfelt and I related to their
stories.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:59):
I know that feeling.
Yeah.
Um, I know the feeling from thefirst time I started, like when
I walked into a room, I Iactually didn't go.
I was six months sober before Iwalked into a room of 12 step,
and I had done it cold turkey,and then I had gotten hired in
recovery while I was um I wastwo months sober, like terrible
(42:22):
idea, whoever said yes to that.
Helping people in recovery, andI was only two months sober.
But they saw something becausethey stayed.
Yes, they did, you know, butjust the when I finally went, it
was just because I had beenworking in recovery and going to
social events, and so I wasmeeting people, and everyone
(42:43):
around me was like, you shouldgo to a meeting.
And I was like, I don't reallyknow that that's for me.
And then one of my friends waslike, You're gonna love it.
Like, because I'm veryanalytical and I love psychology
and why people do what they do.
Literally, you're gonna love it.
Just go, like, just suck it up.
And I didn't want to go afterwork, like it was just laziness,
(43:05):
and so I finally went one dayand I was like, This is great.
To and but but where I was goingwith that was to be in a room
with people and go and hearpeople speak and be like,
they're talking about me, right?
He gets what I'm saying, sheknows what I, you know, when
they're saying things, and I'mlike, that happens to me too.
(43:27):
Or I felt that way too.
And for many years, not having aplace to voice that and thinking
that I thought I was nuts for along time because I was just
like, no one else around meseems to have this problem.
And I got I did the same thingof you in terms of it.
I was a high functioningalcoholic for a long time and
(43:50):
did it good.
And then at some point itstarted to crash.
And the two worlds, the world Iwas living externally, where you
know, I had that facade going,and what I was actually doing
inside of my life when the doorswere closed, at some point came
together and I couldn't upholdit anymore.
And it was leaking out sideways,you know.
SPEAKER_00 (44:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I it's the only place I cango and when I go to a meeting, I
sit down and I just I can justbreathe and be completely who I
am.
(44:34):
There are no uh no pressure tobe anything but present in that
very moment.
And of course, the reward ofbeing of service to others is so
huge.
SPEAKER_01 (44:49):
So were you at the time of when you what were you
doing for work then?
Like were you working in thefield that you work in now back
then?
SPEAKER_00 (44:56):
Well, I was working for the American Cancer Society.
SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Oh.
SPEAKER_00 (45:00):
And um, and it's pretty funny now.
It wasn't funny then, but I hada company car because I traveled
to I was what was called adistrict rep, and I would go out
and I would Sterling, forexample, Sterling, Colorado.
Well, Steamboat was part of myterritory, you know, some remote
(45:23):
areas, and I had this littlecompany car, and it was American
Cancer Society, and I'd rolldown, you know, rotary rolled
windows, I'd roll those down andsmoke my cigarettes in the
American Cancer Society car anddrive around the state and get
myself into some trouble becauseaspen was part of my territory.
(45:46):
And um, and it was they wouldnever let a young person, young
woman travel like that now, likeI did back then.
But it was it was a crazy timebecause I, you know, even in
that car of mine, you know, tobe smoking cigarettes, and then
(46:08):
about, you know, I'd get about30 minutes outside of town and
stop and pick up beer and drinkit as I came into town and would
plan ahead and have my friends,you know, where are you guys
gonna all be tonight and go meetthem at a bar?
And the new, the whole differentpersonality would would jump in,
(46:28):
you know.
It was just it was bizarre.
And I I pulled, yeah, I pulledit off for a long time and I had
respect in my in my job.
And I would do these fundraisingevents in Aspen and
Breckenridge, and we did one inSteamboat, and I was responsible
for those, and I'd pull them offsomehow.
(46:49):
I just look back and I'm like,how did I how did I manage pull
out?
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
I also think that regularly.
I was like, who let me out intothe world?
unknown (46:59):
I know.
SPEAKER_01 (47:01):
It's so true.
Like, whose idea was that?
SPEAKER_00 (47:05):
It's so true.
And then I had a mother'sagainst drunk driving ribbon on
my antenna of my car.
Yeah.
You know, just this wholedeception of my trying to just,
you know, deceive myself anddeceive others that look at me,
I'm so responsible.
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
So at what point did that start to change where you
went from being like Dr.
Jekyll and Mr.
Hyde to more of alignment withlike the one person that you are
and following that direction andchanging careers?
Like at what point did thatshift or begin to shift?
You mean before I got sober?
Well, I mean, if even if it'safter you got sober, like
(47:44):
sometimes people get sober andstill are living, you know,
they'll hide their sobriety orthat they're just, you know,
they're still out of integrity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Yeah.
Well, to be honest, I've neverbeen very um open about my
sobriety in the professionalenvironment because I worked in
healthcare and I worked with alot of physicians, and there was
there has always been such abias, and it it still remains of
addiction in the medicalcommunity, you know, still a
perception of it being aweakness rather than the disease
(48:16):
that it is.
And so I've always been veryquiet about it.
So when I got sober, a yearafter I was sober, my late
husband John and I met and westarted dating.
And by the time I had threeyears of sobriety, I was married
and pregnant.
Okay.
(48:38):
And I didn't even take the timeto figure out what sobriety
looked like in my life because Iwas too busy now going, okay,
now it's time for me to get allthese things that I have put on
hold because I was drinking, youknow.
Uh-huh.
Now I gotta catch up toeverybody else.
SPEAKER_01 (48:55):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (48:57):
And so then um uh unfortunately, um John and I
didn't make it, and I didn't domy I didn't do any kind of
program or anything, and I justran around crazy just trying to
(49:17):
keep everything together andtake care of the boys because
being a mom was always very,very important to me, and being
a good mom was really importantto me.
And at 19 years of sobriety ordryness, I I had a crisis of of
everything, of faith, of um, youknow, I almost drank and then I
(49:38):
got back to AA, and that waswhen I really got serious about
the work.
And that's when I really startedto discover who I was, outside
of being a mother.
SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
Love that you said that though, of 19 years of
dryness.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's I think nottalked about as much as I would
like to talk about it in termsof people that are in fact sober
or clean, whatever.
Um, and then we use the term drydrunk, right?
And I've met many people likethis, and I didn't really
(50:14):
understand it until I was kindof in and around it, which is
that like they're not usinganything, but they're also still
functioning in a lot of oldwounds and not doing any work or
not healing or not growing.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (50:29):
Um, and that you can do that for years.
Oh, I did, and it's awful.
It's awful because I was verydepressed, and um I I don't
think my brother would mind mesaying this at all.
My brother's sober, and Iremember him calling me, and
(50:51):
he's he's not been around aslong as I have, and he he called
me and he said, Ann, why don'tyou get back to AA?
Get back to some recoveryprogram, and I said, Oh, my
problems are too big forrecovery.
And I really believed that,uh-huh.
That I am beyond aid.
(51:13):
And then I got back to recoveryand my everything started to
change.
I'll never forget it a meetingthat I one of the first meetings
I went to when I was newly back,and I happened to mention that I
hadn't been drinking for 19years, but I I must have sounded
just pitiful because a guy cameup to me that was relatively new
(51:36):
and he said, if nine if that'swhat 19 years looks like, I
don't want it.
SPEAKER_01 (51:40):
Yeah.
I hear you.
No, I do because it's one of thereasons it's one of the reasons
that the podcast I createdexists.
It's one of the reasons I'vemade different choices
throughout the last severalyears, is because I got into
recovery.
And at the time, I got into itfor survival.
(52:01):
I was not going to make it if Ididn't do something differently.
And I needed that mindset at thebeginning.
And then something interestinghappened, which is as I started
to do work and lean in andthings started to change, I, you
know, dug out of the hole that Iwas in.
If you think of the earth, likeI was under, you know, in this
(52:23):
giant, you know, trash hole anddug out of that to the point
where I'm on steady the horizon,even keeled ground, right?
And then I sort of looked aroundand was like, now what?
Because it's like at a certainpoint when you've done all the
steps and you know, givenservice in all these different
(52:44):
places and been to therapy forall this different stuff, I
started to look around and waslike, well, I got into this for
survival, right?
I needed to do that.
But now, like, now I'm here andI'm really interested in
thriving, right?
Right.
And so what does that look like?
And how do I take this?
I gave myself a gift of astarting over and a new
(53:06):
beginning.
What do I want to do with that?
And how do I create and buildfrom here, right?
If I was at a at the main level,how do I build?
There's mountains in thedistance.
What do I want to create?
What do I want to um lean intoor grow or contribute towards in
a way that keeps my heartbeatvery much alive?
(53:27):
Um, but those questions haveplagued me in the best way of
and I've watched, I've lookedaround rooms and seen people
sort of they got to the evenkeel level, which is great, and
then they kind of stayed thereand I think clutched on to like
this is what I have to keepdoing.
Um, and I I don't discredit thatthat's also valuable, but I have
(53:51):
the question of and like andwhat?
And then what else?
You know, what else like the theampersand symbol of like, and
what else can I create from hereto go build a life that is very
much alive because that's reallywhat I'm here for.
But that's it's been such abeautiful space to be in, of but
(54:13):
it started from watching what Ididn't want.
I I and was like, what am Istaying sober for if that's it?
You know, I I'm not interestedin it.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I found myself there aftermy kids left the nest.
Okay, yeah.
I was like, uh oh now, yeah,because that's not your purpose,
right?
Yes, my purpose was raising twogood human beings, and I loved
(54:49):
being a mom.
And when I when the empty nesthit, I was not okay with it and
lost.
And it very much was of okay,what what now?
SPEAKER_01 (55:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (55:02):
And I'm I'm still navigating that, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:06):
Well, so there's a question, I mean, what has the
process for you been like ofreinvention?
SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
Well, you know, I think the reinvention, you know,
I agree with you.
I think a lot of it has beenwatching people around me and
seeing what I do and do notwant.
And just like embracing my age.
I don't, I'm tired of watchingwomen my age trying not to be
(55:35):
our age.
Uh yeah, trying to defy theaging process.
I'm like, no.
So my my reinvention has been aresult of the brain injury, like
I said, and embracing the factthat I am an artist, even though
you know, people call me that,and I'm like, no, no, I'm not.
I'm like, you can't call me anartist, but I am an artist.
And I think it's embracingthose, you know, I've always
(56:00):
I've always had that impostersyndrome, and that is what I
think has fueled my desire nowto just be so authentically
myself.
I'm I'm not an imposter.
I I truly do things.
I'm an artist because I do art.
(56:22):
It isn't because, you know, Isell my paintings for a million
dollars, type of thing.
SPEAKER_02 (56:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:29):
That is not what constitutes an artist.
And so so much of it is trulyembracing everything that I do
and recognizing that I do a lot.
You know, I I am a seriousmeditator.
I am a I am an artist and I amI'm good at what I do with my
(56:52):
job, and I'm a good mom, and Ilove my, I'm a good aunt, you
know, just really owning it.
I think that is the essence ofreinventing yourself is owning
who you are.
SPEAKER_01 (57:06):
Yeah.
Well, and something I've said toI said to someone else not that
long ago, because I ran into it,was like I run into the who am I
to do this thing?
Who am I to do that?
Who am I to be that person?
And you know, what qualitates,quantifies, whatever.
What puts me in this of beingable to do that?
And I something I was reading atsome point asked me the
(57:29):
question, and so I had to asksomeone else, like, who are you
not to?
Exactly.
Almost like, how dare you notshare gifts that you have and
wisdom that you've learned whenyou could be helping people?
What a disservice you're doingby not doing that.
Like who are you to not go begreat?
(57:50):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Um, and then one other thing Iwanted to say that you said
earlier that I liked you broughtup that in the healthcare field
that being an addict or anaddiction is a weakness or still
seen as a weakness.
And I when you said it, I hadsuch a reaction, like in my
(58:15):
body, and my first reaction wasto stand on a chair and argue
because I genuinely think thatbeing an addict is one of my
biggest strengths.
Yes.
And not the functionality ofjust being an addict, but being
a person who has acknowledgedthat, accepted it, and made
(58:37):
different choices to walkthrough it and look behind me at
how did I get there and thenstand where I am now and say,
who do I want to become?
And actually move through thatis a hell of a deal.
And it's just one of the thingsthat I think has lent itself to
who I have become, who I keepbecoming.
(58:57):
And it's so beautiful.
And none of that would havehappened if I wasn't an addict.
And so I think there's so muchsigna around, you know, that
you're a failure or you can'tget your shit together, or you
know, like a poison of whatanybody will say about that in
terms of stigma.
It's something I just profoundlydisagree with.
SPEAKER_00 (59:20):
Oh, absolutely.
And what I've learned about allof that is it's a when addiction
is judged, it's because it'sfeared.
Yeah.
People that haven't been throughit can't imagine going through
it.
Sure.
And so they judge it.
Yeah.
(59:40):
And that, you know, now where Iwork now, everybody knows I'm
sober.
Yeah.
You know, I I finally, I mean,I'm I'm all of that stuff is
gone.
All of that, oh, I can't sharethat I'm sober.
I can't handle the judgment.
Judge away.
Yeah.
You know, do what you need todo.
(01:00:02):
Judge me.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:02):
I'm I'm okay with that.
Yeah.
Um, I agree with you.
I'm very much like this is who Iam.
I talk about it.
I'm not big on preaching ortelling other people what to do
ever.
Oh heck no.
But definitely am I like it'sjust everybody knows that.
And I talk about it.
And what I've loved, one of myfavorite parts of it has been
(01:00:24):
speaking and just living it outloud.
I don't necessarily talk aboutit all the time, but I just sort
of live it and having people.
I've had the most magicalexperiences with people that
will find me on a random day inthe corner of a room and be
like, hey, can can we talk?
And there are people thatwouldn't have necessarily walked
into a meeting or a room.
(01:00:45):
But because I do what I do, andyou can witness that.
Something about that is aninvitation to just tell the
truth.
SPEAKER_00 (01:00:55):
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely.
Letting go of all that shame.
There's no shame in it at all.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:03):
No, it really, but it's it was a process because
there wasn't a beginning, right?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:09):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:10):
Um, I had shame about it.
Then there was relief when Ifound that there was people like
me.
Then at one point I had a I hadan experience in a meeting where
I I thought I wasn't bad enough.
I was like almost the oppositejudgment of like, man, these
people are way worse than me.
I should have done worse things.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:28):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:29):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:31):
Yes.
Yep.
And that's where I talk a lotabout the first step.
That, you know, unfortunately,the second part of the first
step being, and our lives hadbecome unmanageable.
We tie that to yet.
We don't, we forget that justnot being able to control our
drinking is unmanageable enough.
(01:01:52):
Yeah.
Because that's why a lot ofpeople, that's why I didn't stay
sober, is I thought, I'm not badenough.
I need to go back out there andaccumulate some things before I
come back in here.
And no, it's not necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (01:02:06):
Yeah.
And it's I think I I get ontangent sometimes about being
high functioning, because it'slike if you are, if you can hold
a job, you know, I didn't, Ishould have probably lost my
last job from drinking, but Ididn't.
But if you can, you know, hold ajob, you hold, you have
whatever, a seat somewhere orhistory of of running things,
(01:02:28):
or, you know, any kind ofleadership seat, or depending on
the area of work that you're in,being high functioning, being
able to get shit done and dothings, and also being a closet
addict.
Um, it's like like you said,there's a duality there that I
think people don't see it asmuch because you're not showing
(01:02:48):
it, but it's almost worsebecause it's like you're getting
away with it and they're notbeing held accountable because
everyone's like, What do youmean she's not like that?
Yeah, you know, and that sort ofvision of in my brain what an
alcoholic was growing up waslike a guy under a bridge with a
bottle in a paper bag orsomething, and it's like I
(01:03:11):
didn't look anything like that.
Exactly.
Um but it And now most peopledon't in in games.
Right.
Yeah.
Um and it really can just beanybody.
And I try to work on that too,because I think um you know,
whether it's whether you're pooror wealthy or whatever, you get
(01:03:33):
judgment from both sides.
Even people I met somebody onetime who was very wealthy, and
you you can kind of people putjudgment on that too, like, oh,
well, you just have money so youcan go to therapy and solve all
this.
And it's like I remember talkingto him, and he was so broken
from having parents who justlike paid for him to do
(01:03:56):
everything, but he just he'sthey threw money at him since he
was little, but they weren'tpresent, and there were so many
other problems in there thatlike no matter which side of the
train tracks that you're on orthat you come from, there's
different problems in bothspaces, and they're all valid.
Absolutely, absolutely.
(01:04:16):
Well, this was the mostbeautiful thing.
I'm so glad that you hopped onwith me tonight.
Yeah, this was fun.
It was fun talking to you.
I just love that I got to spendtime getting a little bit more,
you know, to know you than Ihave before.
Yeah, yeah, it's been a lot offun.
So thank you so much for forjoining me and I just absolutely
(01:04:38):
your wisdom.
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
leave a quick rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
It helps more people find theshow.
If you want more of me, head onover to nataniallison.com and
enter your name and email forbehind the scenes updates in
(01:05:00):
between shows.
New episodes air every Tuesday.
We'll see you next week.
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