Building the Future: Concrete and Sustainability

In this episode, Matt Brennan hosts Chris and Ryan to discuss the complexities of concrete construction, focusing on RFIs, specifications, and sustainability. They share insights from their experiences, emphasizing the importance of clear communication, innovative mix designs, and the need for training in the industry. The conversation also touches on the challenges of concrete production and the future of sustainable practices in construction.

Takeaways

• Clarity in specifications can reduce RFIs significantly.
• Concrete's carbon footprint is a major concern for the industry.
• Innovative mix designs can lead to better sustainability outcomes.
• Training workers on new materials is crucial for project success.
• Communication between architects and engineers is essential.
• Sustainability in concrete doesn't have to increase costs.
• Quantifiable benchmarks can improve project outcomes.
• Concrete is a versatile material that requires careful planning.
• The industry is evolving with new technologies and methods.
• Collaboration among all stakeholders leads to better results.

Sound bites

• "Clarity is the new foundation."
• "Concrete doesn't have to crack."
• "Concrete is in every job."

Chapters

• 00:00 – Intro: From Rebar to Redlines
• 02:40 – Meet the Guests: Chris & Ryan’s Concrete Origins
• 08:15 – What’s Changed in Concrete?
• 13:45 – The Kendrick Elementary Experiment
• 19:20 – Training & The Human Factor
• 24:30 – “It’s Not Your Grandpa’s Concrete”
• 29:10 – From Polished to Refined: Defining the Finish
• 35:40 – Field Testing & Numerical Specs
• 41:00 – Sustainability That Works (and Saves Money)
• 47:10 – RFI Horror Stories: Concrete Gone Wrong
• 53:30 – What Needs to Change in the Industry?
• 59:00 – Closing Thoughts & Where to Find the Guests

🎙️Website - WhattheRFI.com

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🎥YouTube - @WhatTheRFI

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
From rebar to red lines,today we're diving into
the concrete jungle of Arfis,where every pore has a paper trail,
and clarity is the new foundation.Yeah, I know it's a little
cheesy, but let's get into it.(upbeat music)
Welcome to "What theArfi," I'm Matt Brennan,
and this is the podcast all about CA.So today is strictly all

(00:24):
about concrete and construction.And to really help this conversation,
we got not only justone, but two special guests,
both Chris and Ryan onthis podcast episode.
And we'll get really into it.I don't know, why don't we
start off with the intros?Who you are, Chris, why
don't you take it away?You've got a very unique story here.

(00:44):
Sure, yeah, Matt, thanksfor having us on, Ryan.
Always a pleasure to see you.I'm part of a company
called Town Group Solutions,and we're an owner representative firm
with kind of a niche in concrete.And you had talked about
kind of a unique approachto our craft.

(01:08):
And unlike otherconsultancies or consultants
that have backgrounds thatmay be started in engineering,
mine actually started incryptologic linguistics,
which actually when itcomes to specifications,
the project manualcontracts makes a lot of sense.

(01:30):
And after I retired from theNavy as a Mandarin linguist,
I found myself working on the supply sidefor a great company out of Sweden
that did a lot of mechanical engineering,diamond tooling, saw
blades, demolition robots,all sorts of cool stuff.

(01:51):
And it was my job to provide servicetechnical assistance
to architecturalclients, to owners, developers,
as well as influence thespecifications where I could
to increase the demand for our products.So I got really,
really good at understandinghow to get into the specifications

(02:15):
and how to incentivize distributor,end user, architectural networks.
And then myself and some other friends,including Bill
Dubois, who was former headof the Global
Specification Task Force for Gensler,were kind of like, we

(02:37):
were seeing this patternwhere particularly with concrete
finishes, polished concrete,where you would ask for one thing,
but you'd get other things.And the client really
didn't have a way to defendagainst contractually
having to accept thingsthey never wanted in the first place.

(02:58):
It was a huge issue,multi-million dollar issue
across, gosh, not just in North America,but Europe and elsewhere.
And so we kind of used our skills,in particular my
background in linguisticsto craft specifications that are

(03:19):
numerically bench smart, right?Rather than a lot of
like design language,which can be subjective
or maybe aesthetics only,what could we do to
have finishes be quantifiedso that there's proper
wayfinding for your constructors,but then also so the end user,

(03:41):
so the client has away to defend themselves
into making sure what they really want,what's going to serve their needs
is actually what's delivered.And I've been doing that for gosh,
a number of years now,first at Bennett Build,
which was a similar consultancy.And now I've joined with some other folks

(04:05):
to grow our offerings tonot only be project manuals,
quality assurance, quality control,but gosh, everything
from help with procurement,legal contracts, investment revenue,
finance, all sorts of things,so that concrete can be a lot easier

(04:28):
and have less RFIs,change orders and the like.
And I met Ryan at anamazing project in Texas
for Waco Independent School Districtcalled Kendrick Elementary School.
And yeah, and Ryan, why don't you,I mean, I tried to
stay away as best I could,I think we're all up to date here.

(04:51):
Absolutely, yeah, soRyan Stoltz is coming
from Austin, Texas, so Matt,appreciate you having us on
and Chris, always agood time chatting with you
and seeing where the conversation goes.But I'm a structural engineer,
I'm an associate principalat a company called Structures
and we are kind of amid-sized structural firm,
our goal is to always kind of stay nimblewhere we can do a

(05:13):
little bit of everything.So we'll design your back porch,
we'll design your customhigh-end residential house
and we'll take on the $5billion medical center project
we're working on.We do K through 12,
we do university work,adaptive reuse, all of
which have CA, RFIs, questions,we wrestle through
every building material.And concrete recently has

(05:35):
kind of become my favorite,I guess, it's been
interesting as I've had more chancesto deep dive into an industry
that's changing quite a bit, I think.For the first good portion of my career,
concrete was kind of just concreteand I knew what was gonna
come when I got a submittal,I knew when I got an RFI how to handle it
and it was always kind of the same thingand people have realized recently

(05:59):
that there's a lot of carbon,pretty heavy carbon footprint,
if not the most of anymaterial in the entire building
and it's starting to getsustainability attention.
The demand for changesin concrete, the quality,
polished floors weretrendy and still are,
it's gaining momentum but then if thequality isn't there,
it can get a bad name for itself.If you're frustrated, if

(06:21):
your owner's frustratedby the change orders and
the final product crackingor having unsightly
finishes or slippery goop on topthat they thought was
gonna be something better,that's frustrating and so
there's a lot of change.I would say the last
six, eight years especially,I've seen more change
in the concrete industrythan any other material

(06:42):
and that's both excitingand it also means that
you gotta build your teamwith the right people and
that's kind of where I met Chris.There's a project
where we tried to innovateand do something new and
Chris and Tao Group came inand served as a concrete consultant
to kind of helpsupport our structural team
that I was leading andfirst I thought Chris

(07:05):
was gonna be getting in my businessand changing my specs and kind of,
I never really had aconcrete consultant per se
that was gonna be challenging me orreading my documents
and asking me why Iwas doing this and that
and after six monthsof just bombarding them
with all these questions about some newinnovative approaches
that I'm sure we'll talk about.Not just materials but,

(07:26):
or products I should saybut processes really was
the most important pointto deal with the people side of things.
That was really fun soagain, we'll get into that here
but that's kind of my introand how I met Chris a little bit
and bringing a littleengineering perspective
to this concrete conversation.Absolutely and that is the dynamics here.
It is from the specifications to youthat's basically

(07:47):
specifying what needs to gointo the building there, Ryan,
and then from thearchitectural standpoint
so like the trio here, I love it.And we kind of went into the kind of
introduction of like,both for your just general backgrounds
and understandingconcrete, what is concrete.
Most individual justlooking at it, it's concrete,
nothing more but youknow what goes into those,
into the details ofthat, of the mixtures,

(08:09):
the add-ofs, the processand we're definitely gonna tie into it.
We kind of heard itfrom your background, Chris
and talking about thefinishes and design and mixture
and I guess kind ofeluding and continuing
what you're kind of saying, Ryan,is what is your take from
the structural engineer's pointof view when we get into like designing
and the details and theinitial planning of all that?

(08:36):
Sure, so I guess the,and I guess you're asking
what am I thinkingabout early on in design?
Yeah, we've started,we've got a brand new project,
we're gonna do a high riseand get into those details
and they can mentionthe products are changing,
we can start kind of diving into that.Yeah, some biggest
changes in the industry,the introduction of type one L cement,

(08:58):
your Portland limestonecement is a big one recently
that's kind of shaken things up.The push for green
building and lead sustainability,depending on your region
or your type of building,you're gonna see different requirements
that force you to haveconversations earlier
than we used to have.It used to be that batch
plants delivered your concrete,which is your cement, your water, your

(09:23):
sand, your aggregate,maybe an add mixture too to
change some properties hereand there and that's
kind of what you got.And now with those pushes,
again, with sustainability,trying to achieve strength,
trying to achieve finishable properties,you're seeing a lot of
the sustainable solutionsthat are coming out.

(09:44):
Contractors aretelling how they're having
to accommodate their schedulesand wait for 56 day
strengths or even longer.I don't know here in
Texas, they don't tolerate that.We don't wait that long,
but I hear other regionswhere you're required to
meet these lead certifications.It's mandated.
That's a lot of thesolutions that are kind of

(10:05):
have become most popularwith your slag, cement,
your fly ash replacements,supplementary cementitious materials.
But the results are just not reallyfinancially feasible.
And I get certainregions, they're forced to
and you're making ithappen and that's fine,
but there's alternativesthat we've found with Chris.

(10:26):
I think you can talk aboutsome more of these in a minute,
but there's ways to get low carbon,stronger concrete for less cost.
It is possible.There are solutions out there that,
you build the rightteam, you build the people
that can help train your contractorsin some new innovative ways
and you can reallyaccomplish some great things.

(10:46):
So anyways, back to your question,I kind of went off on
a few tangents there,but early on, there's a
lot of things to think about.And the biggest
difference I would say to put it inmaybe one common is that
before we didn't have to talkwith the architect or the team that much
about what the goalswere for the project.
We just knew that we would design it.If it was gonna be concrete,
we would be in controlof what it needed to be.

(11:08):
And we just specified the strength.And yes, there's a lot
more that goes into it,but it didn't change much.
And now to achievesome of these other goals,
you have to talk early.You have to bring in people and have the
right conversations.You have to start
building your specs way earlier,schematic design, design development.
You have to be having conversationsabout early iterations of your spec, what
works, what doesn't.Who's calculating the carbon footprint?

(11:31):
What strengths do you need?How's this gonna affect the schedule?
Is the owner andcontractor okay with that?
These earlyconversations I find around concrete
didn't used to happen.They weren't really needed.
And they're becomingmore and more frequent
and more and more important to achievethe goals of the owner and the project.
And I guess with that too,I'll let you take this one, Chris,

(11:52):
is like specifying where you're basicallywhen you start the project,
you're looking at the location.Because again, not all
products are available,especially if you get
into more remote areasand the challenges that fight with that,
again, concrete has gotta be producedwith a reasonable distance because A,
it's gotta get there in two,it's gotta get there
within a timely fashion.Are you finding those challenges to that,

(12:15):
again, supply shortages, et cetera,that you're playing the
game and being a magicianat the end of it and being a chemist?
Sure, so gosh, great question.So the short answer is we
see that from region to region,not necessarily on our projects,

(12:37):
our approach is a little different,but you will have, each
region will have its own aggregate.And I'm just throwing
out a couple of examplesof sort of stream of conscious here.
Some might be, the rock might be wetter,it might be drier, alkalinity might
change a little bit,the types of cement, how

(13:00):
much they are or are not milled,all of these can be regional.
And yet at the same time,you're seeing a lot of
these top-down solutionsfrom national
organizations, all with great intention,they're thinking, big stroke of the pen,
if we could do this andall things were equal,

(13:23):
how could we lowerglobal warming potential
and embodied carbon?The problem is, is all of the regions
don't respond the sameto these big pen changes
because it is a regional productand you are manufacturing it on site.
So it's not even thechemistry or the type

(13:45):
of the constituent parts that you havegoing into the mixture,
you also havechallenges with how constructors
are going to execute.There's certain
styles, even the language,the colloquialisms, the lingua franca
of how certain regionstalk or what they call,

(14:05):
some might call it burnishing over here,some might call it
something else over there.And so there is this
culture where not everybodyis speaking the same
language necessarily,certainly not your
architects and contractors,you don't have regional considerations
for available materials and so you,like Texas is a great example,

(14:29):
you don't need towait for overseas fly ash
to be able to build concrete,but a lot of people do
that and will wait for,the barge is outside of
Houston Corpus Christi,something to arrive by
rail because they believethey have to and
aren't aware of what to dowith the local materials they have.

(14:55):
Okay, yeah, absolutely.And like you've kind of touched on some
of the different finishes and everythingand like one of the
personal additives I've used,and it's a common thing,
especially in the Vancouver,because we're right
on the water and that,and again, all through California
and other areas as well,is like Kim concrete and knowing that,
again, all goes backinto the specifications

(15:15):
that you want to identifythat right at the beginning
and that goes into thedesign and I've seen the jobs,
I've seen their casestudies where you see the picture
where you've got thatFerrari in the basement
and it's flooded up in midwaybecause it didn't
specify the right productand we've kind of talked,
and we'll dive into morespecs later and everything,
but the importance thatthis early planning stage,

(15:37):
even though it's concrete,it requires so much attention and detail.
And one of the things that Ryanultimately pulled the
lever on for Kendrickwas we're always looking for
how can we simplify, right?If it's, what does Elon Musk like to say?

(15:57):
Like, you need to beconstantly removing things
and if you don't go back and go,oh my gosh, we got to put that back
onto a rocket or the Tesla, like youhaven't removed enough,
simplify, simplify.And so one of the items that we did
for Waco Independent SchoolDistrict at Kendrick Elementary

(16:20):
was instead of havemultiple mixed designs,
each that would have their own variables,we made it one mixed design.
Ryan goes, I think we cando this all, one mixed design
with a particularapproach that we were doing.
So the site concrete,the building concrete,
so pavers, internal floors, piers,everything was one mixed design.

(16:44):
Ryan, you might wanna talk alittle bit more about that,
but I think that offered not only,obviously a faster
track with the schedule,but there's only one
mixed design to talk about.How many RFIs are you gonna have
compared to one with 10 mixed designs,12 mixed designs that are all different?
Yeah, totally.And you have to remember

(17:05):
that concrete is placedand finished in the field on the project.
And so the materialcoming out of the truck
and the guys finishing it,they're the ones that
are creating this canvasthat you're gonna see or walk on.
The building we workedon in Waco is a lot of
exposed concrete floors,upper level slab on metal deck

(17:25):
and the lower slab ongrade, paving your drive,
pretty much all the concrete,other than the piers on the ground,
was visible concrete.So when the guys, I was impressed,
I was gettingcomfortable with some new materials
and admixtures and processes.The whole time I'm
trying to get comfortablewith this new thing as well.
We implemented newtesting, we had a pre-bid mock-up,

(17:47):
we did some cool things in the specsto get everybody
comfortable with something newand make sure training was involved.
Yeah, I was just gonna ask,how was the training goal for that?
Yeah, that's huge.The product was consistent,
the people are always the problem.We said that over and over again.
We had an owner that backed it,Gloria was great at Waco ISD,
she continually recognized that,that we are really

(18:10):
what make things messy,the human factor.
But it was really coolto see the consistent mix,
that single mix,and once the guys got
used to the same concretecoming out of the
truck every single time,regardless of what the mix was,
I saw their excitement and the factthat that is not normal for them.
They usually have towrestle more with slumps
and change theirequipment and do different things.

(18:30):
And yes, althoughthey're learning something new,
the fact it was all gonna be the sameall the way through the project,
I was watching for those cues too,to kind of realize,
okay, as a designer at that point,I was comfortable with
the structural propertiesand what we were
getting from early testing,but I kind of wanted to vet the process.
If it's gonna be a pain in the buttfor the guys finishing it,
or for the pump truck driver,whatever it might be,

(18:53):
it's not a great solutionand you gotta watch out for everybody.
Concrete is touched by so many peoplefrom the design to the execution.
It was really cool to see thepeople on the execution side,
which I am not always onsite to see their reactions.
I made the point to makea few extra site visits
and CA and be there.And they're really
excited about this new thingand a new way of approaching their craft.

(19:17):
Like they almost took pride in itwhen they trained properly
and could kind of take ownership over it.It was really fun to
see them kind of light upover some innovations in the material
that they really take a lot of pride in.And in that moment,
when you're watching the first likecoming out of the truck
and seeing it, how wasyour anxiety at that point?
Is this going to work?Is this a design?

(19:37):
You know the history,you know the theory,
you know the math and the researchand you've done your due diligence,
but how was it at that moment of this,trying to combine it as one mixed design?
Not too nervous,primarily because we had
done quite a few mockupsat that point.
To get the trainingwhere it needed to be,
owner had, I think, a great requirementto train local trades.

(19:59):
Really wanted to makesure we didn't just bring in
outside people to comebuild the school building
for the community.So she wanted to make
sure that local tradeshad the opportunity to get trained up.
That was kind of a neatrequirement that we respected.
And so we required some extra training.So by the time we'd done a few mockups
and proven this concretecould get three times the strength

(20:21):
and we'd taken out 30% of the cement.And we also ended up
saving almost 100,000 gallonsof water on the project
just by choosing this mix.Very cool.
We got better concrete,conserved water, reduced cement,
came out with some beautiful floors andrefined our process,
which the refined concrete finishing,no pun intended, is a refined process.

(20:43):
But refined concretefinishing is a new spec
that we just came out with.I'll let Chris talk
about that here in a secondbecause it's a great next step,
I think, in where all this is going.But yeah, it was fun to see.
So not too many nerves.We've done enough
training, enough early mockupsfor me to get
comfortable with the strength side,that by the time I was
coming out of the truck,my only nerves were

(21:04):
watching the people finishing itand working with it just to gauge them.
And that's what Ididn't quite have a touch on
and didn't have anyexperience really with that.
And so that was the onlything I was really wanting
to show up and see just to really vetthis new innovative thing.
I wanted to make sure I wasn't justspecifying something
that only met structural properties,but is it best for the

(21:25):
team, is it best for the ownerand what they're expecting?
In this case, yes, Ithink everybody was blown away
that touched it and that was fun to see.Very cool.
You wanted to addsomething to that, Chris?
There was.And Ryan said it well.

(21:45):
There was the opportunity to trainfor the material changes,
the mixed design behaviors.So that field expectations
were correct going into it,rather than a surprise, as is sometimes.

(22:06):
And one of the things thatI'm seeing across the board,
whether it's the Marin County spec,whether it's something from
cement association Canada,NRMCA down here in our part of the woods.
And you'll have these drasticchanges to the mixed design.
You'll take out cementand you'll replace it

(22:28):
with something that is not cement, right?So it doesn't act like cement,
does hydrate likecement, it's not cement.
And then you'll seethe rest of the documents
are not updated.You'll see that there isn't any training
to update the newbehavior of these new material.
New concrete, low carbonconcrete is not old concrete.

(22:48):
Old concrete no longer exists.It's not, I mean, it is,
but not really available.But contractually, and when we go to
execute in the field,why do we have so many change orders?
Why are we seeing increased RFIs?And Ryan, you were at the ICRI conference
and they're talking about the life cycleof certain types of

(23:09):
concrete systems beingfive years or less sometimes,
because we'reconstantly adding more water
and all of them, butbecause we're not addressing
the fundamental issue thatit's not your daddy's concrete,
it's not your grandfather's concrete,whomever that you're related to.
It's new.And so I think what we're

(23:31):
able to do with Kendrickand what we try to do
with all of our projectsis make sure that there is
that transfer of knowledgeto number one, just have people recognize
and respect the material changes.And once people go, oh,
it's not old concrete,then they're open, then

(23:51):
somebody, their guards,will go down and they'll go,
okay, now I'm ready to teachor to be talks, what are we doing?
Whether it's Portland Limestone Cement,whether it's nano modified
concrete, like we used Kendrick,whether it's ever
changing, slag or fly ash content.And the other thing that

(24:13):
I liked about Kendrick,and hopefully this will
dovetail nicely into the refinementis we had a lot of communication
between an excellent design firm,O'Connell Robertson,
Christina Abrams, whoreally kind of introduced people
together and was that hubgetting everything going

(24:36):
between O'ConnellRobertson's, between my firm,
Townard Solutions,between Structures, BWC,
who is the builder.And we were able to
approach things very holistically,not just like is the
concrete gonna be load bearing,but there are architectural finishes.

(24:57):
So we need to limit slag and fly ashand some of those things anyway,
so we don't have lots ofdry shrinkage and cracking
and stuff that people don't want onpolished concrete floors.
We need to look at it very holistically.And because we had
identified numerically,benchmarks for placement and finishing,

(25:19):
for refining,providing the finished walking,
final surface,everybody is able to communicate
whether they disagreedor not in one language,
in a mathematical language.And it was key to protecting the owner,
it was key to setting expectations.And yeah, and it's an

(25:40):
amazing little project,not little project.
And to my understanding,it is particularly in Texas
where they're facing severe,normally facing severe water shortages

(26:02):
and drought water tables coming down.When you start looking
at the bigger picturewith water scarcity, if
you can build concrete,and every time you do it,
you're lowering that demand for water,so it can go to agriculture,
so it can be for drinking water.And Canada has these same problems too.

(26:25):
You think, oh my gosh,Canada's got tons of water
and rivers and glacial runoff and you do,but there's a lot of problems,
particularly in the Westwith large populations,
certain centers, First Nations people,where those areas do
deal with water scarcity.And so if you can move

(26:46):
the needle positively,so there's a little
more water for other thingsthan construction, all of it adds up.
And it's really good news.Oh, 100%.
And that's just annoying.That's not gonna change in the next year.
It's gonna take worseand worse and worse.
And yeah, well, Idefinitely wanna circle back
to the sustainability aspect.And there's a lot of cool things.

(27:08):
And then you're rightin the thick of the weeds
with it too.And lots of good points here
when it comes to the construction.Like we've talked about the design,
we've talked aboutlots of specifications,
all these things that go into the specsthat people are listening to
this for the first time going,I really need to look at
my concrete spec right nowand dive into that project.
What are you findingother than kind of the,

(27:29):
it sounded like a lot of specifications.Is there a lot of common reasons for RFIs
that come up in concrete work?Is it, has it spec related?
It doesn't sound likeit's drawing related,
but I don't know, what do yousee into it on your side, Ryan,
when the RFIs are coming in?Is there a bit of a
common problem that you go,hey, we need to address this
better so it doesn't come up?Most of the time when it

(27:52):
comes to concrete RFIs,a lot of times it's
more, I'm trying to think,usually it's not related to mixed design.
That's usually a shopdrawing that comes through
and we're approving the mixed design.RFIs, that's primarily, I don't know,
misdanker bolts, misdimensions,they wanna change something,

(28:13):
not necessarilydirectly related to the spec,
but I do think the lack ofclarity and specifications,
we kind of hit on it already,but the thing we did differently
was really having physical benchmarksthat you can measure.
Chris really championed thatand kind of led the
way with his experiencein getting that into the spec.

(28:35):
And that's part of the new refinedconcrete finishing spec
that we just launched here recentlyat a conference in Kentucky.
But it just adds measurable benchmarks.So I think it takes that vagueness
out of the kind ofconstruction process of,
hey, did the subcontractor satisfythe terms of the contractor?
They made the specification.Well, if it's kind of just

(28:58):
based on, hey, well, is it shiny?Yeah, it's pretty shiny.
Okay, I guess it's good.Is that what polished concrete is?
Yeah, okay.All right, I guess then you're good then
and those pay them and then they're off.And there's a lot of vagueness there
where this was the firsttime I kind of seen a lot
of new physicalbenchmarks that are measurable.
So there's sometesting you can do to say,
hey, how refined is that surface?And I'll let Chris kind of talk about

(29:20):
some of those specificbenchmarks in the spec,
but I think that can add alot of clarity and construction.
So whether there'smaybe RFIs, change orders,
those types of discussions,dipping into contingencies,
all that's kind of related, right?You're OAC meetings
where you're wrestlingthrough protecting the owner,
you're trying to figureout how to keep this project
moving forward in construction,but that key product of

(29:44):
concrete being deliveredand placed early in a project,
then needing to be protectedand being the final
finish on the project,it is just, it needs more attention,
it needs more conversation,it needs to be measured to make sure
the owner is getting what they deserveand they're not just being delivered.
What a subcontractorthinks is decent quality
for polished concrete,and oftentimes as we're

(30:04):
finding out is not very good.It's actually quite expensive to maintain
if you get it wrong andit doesn't look that great
if it cracks and it's not really safe.If you put a bunch of coatings on top
that are actuallyslippery when it gets wet,
you have people slipping,falling and getting hurt,
and that's not okayeither, you have safety concerns.
So Chris, I'll let you talk a little bitabout the benchmarks.

(30:24):
It's definitely your area of expertise,but what all do we introduce in that spec
that helps define thequality of that surface?
Yeah, and to go back tothe original question,
kind of Matt, like what types of RFIs,what were kind of
some of the pinch pointsand curing requirements,

(30:51):
maybe going overclarifications for mixed designs,
but a lot of themreally are surface finishes.
And polished concrete has been a problem,not the idea of polished concrete.
Having a slab serve as the final finishis very sustainable

(31:16):
rather than put new materials,carpeting, resins,
flooring, something like that.It's absolutely lovely idea.
The problem is that in the past,most of the language for specifying it
has been very visual, very aesthetic.And with the myriad of clear coats

(31:42):
that you have available,you're able to have a
thousand and one different waysto elicit the condition of the contract,
the shininess, the mattefinish, the semi-gloss.
So you have these divergent work results,but contractually they
all equal the same thing.So you see the problem,

(32:06):
the cost to install is different,the time to install is different.
How you maintain them areall completely different.
And so what you were starting to see,not starting to see what you have seen
are number one, designfirms bearing the brunt
of paying for these, I call ithemorrhaging contingencies.

(32:27):
The owners upset expectations weren't metand the design team
doesn't know what to do.The contractor goes, well, we're just
following your spec.You know?
And so they would goback to some of this kind of
like manufacturer tradeorganization sort of specifications.

(32:52):
And they'd go, hey, we'restill having these problems.
And the feedback you'd get is like,well, you're just not
doing it right next time.Use the same language,
but try to include additional detailsto help narrow down what you want.
And maybe it helped, maybe it didn't,but the primary problem, and again,

(33:13):
as an owner representative,my whole mission is risk management.
And at the end of the day,if a hundred different things are all
equal contractually,that is no good to the owner.
And that's exactly what has happenedto the state of polished concrete,
but literally acontractor can turn in anything,
whether it's polished or not,a hybrid of polished, different sealers,

(33:38):
and they get paid.And then if you want, oh
no, that's not what we wanted.We actually want it to be sustainable.
We want it to be low maintenance.So like, well, then
you'd have to pay more moneyand you need to open
up your school on time.So what do you want to do?
You know, just this kind of liketrying to finish projects under the gun.

(34:00):
And so what Ryan and I were both,I know because we've talked about it,
very proud to help out with,is these efforts of the National Concrete
Refinement Instituteyou can go to www.thencri.com.

(34:21):
And there's an amazing gentlemanI've known for many years now.
His name is Chris Bishop.And he's also
Department of the Navy like me,but he's Marine.
So he's extra tough.And he's got considerable
experience as a contractor,doing some of the biggest

(34:45):
installs across North Americafor all sorts of luxury firms
for all your big eye masons groups.And we have this new
specification that was writtenand peer reviewed by
specifiers, by designers,for specifiers, for designers
to be able to more accurately communicateowner needs design intent to

(35:09):
the rest of the project team.And we presented like Ryan said,
this past June in Louisville for theirnational conference,
Specifier Consultantsand Independent Practice,
which is a great organization.And we had actually,

(35:32):
Ryan and I had actuallywritten an article with,
gosh, the currentpresident, the past president,
and Christina Abrams, again,who was really leading the
way at Kendrick Elementaryfor O'Connell Robertson and
the rest of the project team.And basically said,

(35:53):
what I just described,here's the problem.
This is why it hurts.And now here's our solution.
And so after, gosh, five, six monthsof all this back and
forth working with some great,it's like a who's who
list of super smart people,launched the new specification.

(36:14):
We actually did some live demonstrationsto introduce people to
concepts like surface refinement.How do you take average
roughness or RA measurements?How do you take
coefficient of friction measurements?How do you take simple
ways to have abrasionor scratch resistance

(36:37):
methods when you're in the field?And then how do you translate those
as conditions of the contract?So there's a minimum level of durability.
There's a minimum level ofsafety for slip and fall.
There's a minimum level of refinement.So you're not just taking shortcuts
and gooping it upwith residence materials
that are gonna get summedup by the auto scrubber,

(37:00):
six weeks later.And just, and I think that's a good thing.
And what's been great is,not just some of the ideas that my firm
has implemented over the years,but to see everybody's
different perspectiveand hear their pain points
and how they address them.There's a amazing gentleman

(37:24):
by the name of Peter Jordan,who's out of a great specifications group
out of Houston, Texas, actually.And he's a great guy, Jordan Consultants,
and myself and a gentlemanby the name of Bill DuBois,
whom I had mentioned earlier,were presenting on, here's refined

(37:47):
concrete as a finish,and here's polished concrete.
Let's look at the differences.And Peter jumps up out
of his seat in this roomof 200 something people and he goes,
polished concrete is the devil's work.(laughs) Sent the tone and
everybody kind of relaxed.And it was like all of a

(38:07):
sudden it was okay to say,"Yeah, I struggle with it.
"I struggle with thesesurface finishes too.
"It's okay to talk, I'm not the only one"losing money hand over foot
"when it comes to thesedisputes and change orders."
And I don't know if it'sgonna solve all problems.

(38:28):
You still gotta brush your teeth.You still have to water
your lawn when you're able.You gotta get to bed and have three
squares or whatever.But in terms of reducing
some stress and headaches,I think they're doing
phenomenal work there at the NCRI.And I was super proud
to be a part of that.And they're getting ready
to launch some new documentsas well and they're training all over.

(38:52):
It's really, reallycool what they're doing.
Yeah, that's a key partof that training aspect.
The people problem we'vetalked about in the hit on there,
they're really filling that role well.And I think Chris
Bishop's leading that groupto just build up craftsmen,
that understand some new methodsand new ways of
approaching a concrete slaband ending up with a much better result

(39:13):
and multiple measurable benchmarks.So yeah, it's fun to
see the training aspectand the people problem
and who's stepping up.It's really, it's an effort.
You can't just specifyit, put the words in,
and expect it just toturn into a great result.
That just never goes well.You have to build the right team
and have the peopleto bring a new solution
and introducesomething new into the market.

(39:36):
But yeah, the resultshave been really fun to see.
This new spec's been excitingand seeing the light bulbs go off
and you explain theproblems you're solving.
It's like sometimes you don't knowthat you can solve that problem
and there's somebodythat can actually help you
with that thing.You just keep going along
and you just expect change orders.You expect concrete's
gonna have its problemsand it's gonna crack.
You know, we alwaysjoke, you got, you know,

(39:57):
death taxes andconcrete that's gonna crack.
Those are the threethings you can count on.
And it doesn't have to be actually.You know, there's innovations that are,
concrete, actually, if you get it right,you lower your water
content, it doesn't have to crack.You know, and you can, you
see these light bulbs go offas you talk to people and
realize they do have problemsand they really want solutions
when they realize thereis a solution out there.

(40:18):
So it's been fun to connectthose dots and help people.
That's what's so fun is helping peoplesee those light bulbs
go off and recognize,when we work together, open to
new ideas and good processes,we can do some really cool stuff.
Yeah, no, and I think like talking,like mentorship is so
good and key into knowing it.Like polished

(40:39):
concrete, yeah, I've used iton a number of projects as well.
And where, you know, it's just thattaking it from the step,
you know, it's one to say on this floor,the whole thing's been polished concrete,
it's the main area andyou know, that's fantastic.
But then we've got abunch of structural columns
in this location.Well, we got to do our saw cut joints
and you know, youwant to make it look good
so it doesn't look like an afterthought.And again, the more knowledge,
the more you caneducate everyone, the GC,

(41:01):
because last thing youwanted to do is do a site review
and be like, what didyou do to the concrete?
Well, we had to do some control.Ah, you know, those
moments and same thing.I've been in scenario where
there was too much humidityin the floor system.
Well, because it was the lead building,the glue that they were
using wasn't adhering to itand all the challenges.
So the knowledge andputting these articles out

(41:21):
and being involved inthis kind of discussions
is so key through, youknow, anyone's career,
whether you're ajunior, just diving into this,
whether they'rearchitect, you know, structural,
doesn't matter, you need to be involved.You need to be continuing your education.
And that, it's agreat segue into kind of,
where's concrete going from asustainability standpoint?
Like, lots changing.We've, you know,
Ryan, you've talked about,it's a very dirty product.

(41:43):
My understanding, 8% ofthe world's CO2 right now.
Is that number increased?Is it, do you think it's decreased?
I would say, obviously,as the population grows
and the expected amountof concrete, we will pour.
It's gonna be a challenge tokeep coming up with solutions
and implementing them at apace to offset the amount

(42:05):
of extra concrete we'll be pouring.So I'm sure you'll get
varying opinions on that,but it's a large number that goes into
the concrete industryand it's gonna continue to be.
And you just gotta take it, you know,one step at a time, right?
That's how you eat the elephant.One bite at a time, you
can't get too overwhelmed by itor assume I can't do anything.
Cause that seems like too big of a numberto even think about.

(42:27):
There's times I thinkabout just the US industry,
that feels overwhelming.And then I realized that
China's made 22 times more cementthan we have in our country.
And it's like, okay, there's, you know,that felt overwhelming.
It's just to think aboutthe US or, you know, Canada
and our impact over here.And then you realize, oh,
over there, there are many.I mean, guidelines at that point,
it's just doingwhatever, you know, whatever.

(42:48):
And again, how is that being fired?Is it by coal, et cetera?
And I guess this is where, you know,you can definitely take
this to a whole new level.We could spend probably hours talking
about this too, Chris.Like you're in the thick of all these
different solutions.We've talked about
reducing the water aspectto get a better mixture and
a better product at a day.You know, what else are you
finding that you're seeing hereto really push this, to, you know, to

(43:10):
bring that, you know,8% down to a much lower number.
Cause the reality isconcrete's in every job.
I think the biggest challenge we have is,there's a lot of solutions out there.
Right now you see a lotof, some are regional,
some are just differentapproaches to getting rid of,

(43:31):
trying to get rid of asmuch cement as you can.
That's usually the goal, right?Cement seems to be the offender.
You can try to make lesscarbon intensive cement.
You can try to replace with modifiedslags, fly ash, SCMs.
There's a lot ofdifferent approaches you can use.
Again, the problem I thinkis that a lot of contractors
are getting burned.There's not the training in

(43:52):
place to know how to executeand deliver high quality for the owner.
And it's costing more.You ask in general, how
much is a green building cost?And you know, you're
going to pay 20% moreif you want it to be sustainable.
It doesn't have to be.When you're removing cement,
cement's the mostimportant part of the concrete mix.
If you really dig into it andyou know how to do it right,

(44:14):
sustainable concrete isactually less expensive.
And Chris says that all the time.Doing it in sustainable mix,
this should be the cheaper option.You're taking out the
most expensive thing.As long as you're finding the right
substitutions to go in,if you're replacing it with other things
that take moremanufacturing and also cost more,
then yes, the cost is going to go up.But I think in the future,
you'll see a lot ofsolutions that hit that cost issue.

(44:37):
Because at the end of the day,the owner and the contractor,
a lot of times kind of have final sayin what gets implemented or what doesn't.
They can throw a fit and they can getsomething thrown off
a job if they really wantto, almost all the time.
And if the budget doesn't make senseor it's a pain for them,
those solutions are notgoing to be very successful
in tapping into that 8%that we're trying to get down.

(45:00):
So I think it'sfinding solutions and teams.
To me, that was thebiggest eye-opener for me.
Building the right team, the design team,adding a concrete consultant,
somebody like Tao Group on this project,those are the difference maker to me
that I had not seen on a project.That stands out as the key difference.
The results were outstanding.One of the most, probably
the most exciting projectI've worked on.

(45:20):
The key difference was thatthe team from the beginning
was built a little differently.It was built with
people that could speak toand had knowledge in
these areas of concreteto try something new and to execute it
all the way through construction.Not just write something in a
spec that's an extra productor something that will magically fix it.
You had to build theteam a little differently
to make the race car gofaster and get the Ferrari.

(45:45):
So yeah, those are my thoughts.I think some innovative
solutions will come up.But again, how you implement those,
how we as designers and teams,think about our people problem.
What does our design team look likeand how are we gonna coach contractors
through something new?That has to be a piece of the puzzle.
To give sustainablesolutions a good name.

(46:07):
Right now, it's kindof, at least in Texas,
sustainable solutions area bad word for contractors.
If you say somethingsustainable, they run the other way.
They do not wanna hear it.If it affects price, it
affects quality, great.You got their interest.
As soon as you say it's sustainable,they get really skeptical
because they've beenburned way many times.
There's just too manypoor sustainable projects

(46:27):
and products that under deliver.It will be the guinea pig.
You wanna try something newwhere you don't have the proven fact.
Yeah.Chris, you wanna add anything?
I think that we're, you know, there's,maybe knee jerk is not respectful enough

(46:48):
to the time and effortof all of the first steps
in sustainable or lowcarbon concrete construction.
I want to be, because when you're apioneer in something
and you're puttingthese first pieces together,
like the Marin County specification orsomething like that,
number one, you've got great intentionsand you're dealing with all of the

(47:11):
available informationand as many scenarios as
you can possibly think ofwithout jumping a year, two, three, four
years down the road.But what we're finding out
and what I think Ryanand I are talking about
is that could potentially harm adoption,wider spread adoption, is

(47:31):
having bad concrete, right?No matter, the low carbon mixes
with really high carbon resultsbecause the life cycles are cut in half
or they're already crackingand require patch and repair
just for basic serviceabilitythroughout the facility life cycle.
And I think what we're already seeingand what we'll see more of,

(47:56):
which is the silver lining, I suppose,is people not only including low carbon,
maybe not onlyincluding water stewardship,
but also what type ofconcrete are we making?
How porous is it going to be?How durable is it going to be?
How long is it going to last?How resistant to

(48:18):
chemical and physical attacks?I think we're gonna see a lot of that.
And one of the thingsthat Ryan and I also
have noticed immediately iswith your higher performance concrete,
you're able to makesome other very sustainable
types of decisions likehow much steel reinforcement do we need?

(48:39):
If concrete is already shoulderingsome of the burden over
here, can we reduce that?And I love conversations like that.
Our clients love conversations like thatbecause now
sustainability is the same languageas cost reduction.
And that's whereadoption is gonna take place.

(48:59):
When you take all ofthose things together,
make a higher quality type of concrete,doing it right the first time alleviates
a whole bunch of problems,as we were kind of talking about earlier.
And so I think that the training aspectof the people is exciting.
I think being able toobserve and understand concrete

(49:24):
like we've never beenable to historically
is also exciting.And I think the natural outcome of that
is going to be really highquality, low carbon concrete.
Nice.And even the process of doing that too,
like there's one company,I've invested in, got stocks in them,
one is called Pyrogenesis.They're based out of
Montreal and they do plasma torchesand they're working with one group,

(49:44):
I think in the internetwould call Progressive Planet.
And again, it's all about the processversus doing the raw
coal and that kind of stuff.How can they do this a
much more cleaner wayand just going with clean electricity
and seeing those aspects.Yeah, the world needs it,
as we can see every year.Before it would be very limited,
but now we're seeingdisaster, after disaster.

(50:06):
We need, and like yousaid, less water, less water.
Things have to changeand push comes to shove
and that's where we're at.And at least we're
seeing these progressiveand it's just like you're noting the ride
just letting people be open to it,not being the guinea pigs and
Chris, as you said, pioneers.That's exactly, exactly it.
And just being thoseleaders in the industry.

(50:27):
And I think that's, hands down,you've got to be doing that 100%.
So I'm kind of wrappingit up the episode here
and kind of just a fun question,but when it comes to concrete,
any weird RFI's you'veseen or like a CO that like,
well, that was not a funCO, we can laugh about it now,
but was there any kind oflittle quick little stories
before we kind of close it up?It's gotta be one or something.

(50:53):
I've got one that comes to mindand I'll tell it real, real quick.
We have a client inFlorida that wanted to have,
I'll give it away if I describe,what type of facility it was,
but there was a main kindof office and welcome area.

(51:14):
And I don't knowanother way to describe it.
It was supposed to kind of look like aCoeladeville's jacket.
This really, really bright white,white concrete and then
black jet black coal aggregate.The aggregate had been
shipped in at great expenseto be the right type of black.

(51:37):
Yeah.And we had identified
how we're gonna go after,what types of whites meant,
do we have to augment with pigments?What are we gonna do to
make sure it is white?And because it needed
to be not gray concrete,white concrete with black rocks.

(51:59):
And gosh, this is a long time ago.And so what happened is
that after we dialed inall of the mix design,
the local ready mix companyadded fly ash and some other things
that added a whole bunchof gray coloring to the mix.
And then there was awhole bunch of vibration.

(52:21):
And so all of this beautiful imported,transported black aggregate
shook all the way to the bottomof the six inch slab or whatever,
the white concrete turned gray.And RFI was something like,
well, what can we do now to make it whiteand get the aggregate back to the top?

(52:43):
And I don't know who asked the question,but it was like, nothing.
Nothing, you're done.Get your white paint out at this point
and we'll hopefully, yeah, no.Yeah, you can get the, as
our buddy Keith Robinson says,get the concrete
eraser, aka the jackhammer,get rid of it and report again.

(53:06):
That's maybe theweirdest one I've ever seen is,
yeah, how do we make it white again?How do we meet design intent
now that we can't meet design intent?Before you jump in there, Ryan,
a similar one was wedid this learning stairs.
And again, we designed it,kind of every second, third step.
It was the same levelas the learning stairs.
So you had the main stairs going upand then the same
thing, it was beautiful.And the concrete was

(53:26):
the best we've ever seen.And of course we get to
the last learning stair stepsand they got the treads wrong.
And it's like, now wegotta put a guard rail,
now we got the whole design intent.And it's so frustrating
because it's not like,we'll just rip out
that area and refix it.It's concrete, it's a difference.
So yeah, it's never,those moments aren't fun.

(53:48):
It is what it is.But Ryan, I'm sure you've
got one that you've seenfrom a structural aspect.
That was pretty entertaining.But yeah, I've had a few,
trying to think the ones that stand out.I know one was a slab on metal deck.
A lot of times it's air iswhere you almost feel bad.
I don't know if you'd say it's funny,but slab on metal deck
where we're trying to poura flat surface,

(54:08):
because they're coming inwith long corridor walls
on an upper level ata university building.
It's supposed to havepolished exposed floors.
And so you've gotyour rigid wall material
and you need really flat floors.Well, the contractor
had used the wrong method.They use kind of the dipstick method
where you try to get aconsistent six inch slab thickness

(54:28):
on your deck through the whole thing.Well, when you do that,
your steel beams deflect someand you pour to six inches
consistent thickness, right?You get the wave.
You see every deflection and every camberthat didn't come out.
And so they looked down this hallwayafter they put the
walls and the base trim inand you could just, you
just see gaps everywhere.And it's like, well,
that's a little bit too late.You finished your
concrete, use the wrong methodand I don't know what you do now.

(54:51):
So you kind of just have to live with it.So they bought some rubber based material
and made some changes and made it wavy.And I just had to live with it.
I didn't have theschedule to tear it out,
but sometimes it'sjust methods like that.
You get the RFI and it'sjust like, if you miss it,
not concrete's hardened andyou've poured a lot of it.
You probably can't go backwards.They could have said,

(55:12):
hey, that's unacceptable,but huge cost, huge schedule impact.
It's the schedule impact, yeah, exactly.Another RFI's like
sustainable substitution.Sometimes I'll call, I'll
get like a one page flyerof the sustainable
cement or some solutionthat's getting put in
front of me as a substitution.And I'll call and get
some colorful characterson the other line that,

(55:33):
you know, answer the phoneand say they're with a
different product or they,I don't know, it's just,
it's always fun vetting those, I think.So finding solutions that are,
I don't know, trustworthyand trying to pick holes
in the ones that aren't,I don't know, I kind
of have fun with that.So this is just part of
my engineering process too.I got to get comfortable with this thing.
So I'm like, youbetter know your product.

(55:54):
If I call you, youbetter have answers for me
and even have some data.So I've definitely had a
few colorful charactersin vetting different
substitution productsthat come through that were a definite no
after that conversation, so.So it kind of like wrapping up lots
of like huge amount of key ways.Thank you guys for
being so much on the showwith so much wealth and

(56:15):
knowledge here, you know.And again, I'm sure we could come back
and do this all over againand even dive into even beyond topics.
Yeah, why don't wecarry that on with you?
Just kind of in 30 seconds or less,and you can take a little
bit more if you need to.But Ryan, like if you
had to change one thingthat how the industry
handles CA, you know,what would it be?
And the same question to you, Chris.So you got to think about

(56:37):
it while Ryan's answering.Yeah, I got to answer quick, huh?
How to help improve CA.For me, it's all communication.
We've hit on that some, but I thinkasking the questions early,
having built things properly, reallystarting at SD and DD
is what sets you up for CA.We always teach our

(56:58):
engineers that the qualityof your construction documents,
including yourspecifications and what you put out
at that point is gonnamake your life easier.
It's gonna make your lifehell when you get into CA.
So, so much starts earlyon, but as you get into CA,
continuing thatconversation, that coordination,
I'd say reach out toyour engineers again.

(57:19):
I always joke with architects.They ask me if I want to
go to every OAC meetingwith the owner and the
architect and the contractor,and I say, well, there's no E.
We're not getting paid tobe a part of the OAC meeting.
Our letter didn't get included in those,but at the end of the day,
like when your engineers need it,pick up the phone, give them a call.
If there's solutions that can help with,my hope, I teach everybody
in our firm to be responsive,if anything, maybe too responsive in CA,

(57:43):
but pick up yourphone, call your engineer.
If they're not answering and not helpingthat part of the
process, then call their boss,tell them they're not helping you.
Like, I don't know, pushthem, make them be part
of that solution from theengineering perspective.
We should be responsive.We should be helping the owner.
We should be part of that team.Sometimes we feel a bit left out,
because again, we're notthe O, the A, or the C,

(58:04):
but call us, includeus when it's necessary,
and we're happy to help out.Love it.Chris.
I'm gonna default kindof to an earlier answer,
because I think it'scritical, and that is,
I'm a linguist.Everybody generally speaks

(58:27):
differently about concrete,and because I mentioned Keith Robinson,
I'll mention him again.We wrote an article a
number of years ago calledChanging the Language of
Concrete, where we speak to this,where contractors, owners, architects,
everybody's idea of whatthe outcome is supposed to be

(58:51):
is also different.So what I would like to see more of
is having moremathematical quantifiable benchmarks
that can serve as that language,that universal language for everybody.
And I'm being a little dramatic here,so that the architect
can go, are we at a six?And the engineer can

(59:14):
go, I know what a six is.Yes, we're at a six.
Contractor, are we at a six?No, I don't think we're at a six.
We're at a five.Cool.
Now we can make an informed decisionabout what we need to do and
how much it's going to cost.And again, that's an oversimplification,
but being able to incorporate that moreinto the specifications,

(59:39):
being able to incorporate that into BIMand other software like that.
And of course, I'mtrying to not mention AI.
It made it into here.We got to get the language right first
before we start teachingartificial intelligence
what to do with language.But that's what I'd like to see more of.

(01:00:00):
Nice.No, good.Absolutely.
I agree with that.And I was wondering, I'm like,
are we going to do apodcast without AI coming in?
But it made it in.So, there you go.
So close to that.You're going to get on the front of AI right now.
That's right.So thank you both for being on the show.
Again, contributing to this awesomewealth of knowledge.
Where can we find you?You know, again, take it away, Chris.

(01:00:21):
Where can individuals reach out?Where can they see your work?
Plug your socials, name it.Sure.
We're not launchingthe new website just yet.
So you can still find me atwww.bennettbuild.us.
But the new site willbe available this fall.

(01:00:42):
And that is taugroup.solutions.Awesome.
Yeah, for me, my companyStructures is at www.structurestx.
So, Structures pluraland txliketexas.com.
And yeah, my email's Ryan atwww.structurestx.com.
So reach out with any questions.Be glad to help you out.

(01:01:05):
And if you've got a projectcoming up, just let us know.
We do work everywhere.And yeah, glad to be a part of your team
if you need help on somenew concrete solutions.
That was awesome.Well, thank you, gentlemen.
Again, really appreciate it.I'm wrapping this up.
Architects and structural engineerskeep designing and contractors
keep making those plans reality.We'll see you on the next one.