Block. Block. Block.

When the Bough Breaks Podcast welcomes the one and only Seth Andrews


When Seth isn't busy being just a normal good looking guy with great voice, beautiful family and cute dogs, Seth is a podcaster, author and host of The Thinking Atheist Podcast. Seth guests on WTBB to open up about his estrangement experience surrounding his family's faith and offers encouraging words to our hosts and listeners.

To learn more about Seth, just click the following links! We hope you enjoy this episode as much as we had the pleasure of producing it.

http://www.sethandrews.com

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com

https://buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
The following is the Kingfisher Media Podcast.

SPEAKER_04 (00:17):
Hey, you're listening to When the Bell
Breaks.
My name is AC Fisher, and withme today is a man that in my
world needs no introduction, butfor some of you, you may want
one.
Seth is probably best known asthe host of the Thinking Atheist
Podcast.
He's a published author with atleast three books that I'm aware
of.
In addition to his podcast, he'san atheist activist.

(00:40):
Prior to his work in the atheistcommunity, he was a
fundamentalist Christian andeven worked for 10 years as the
Christian radio host.
Seth, welcome to the show.
Thanks for the invite.
It's good to be here.
So, yeah, as you know, this showis all about family
estrangement.
Everything I've heard about yourstory over the years has sort of

(01:02):
clued me into the fact that yourestrangement story is not your
typical kind of one.
Uh because you're such awell-practiced speaker, you've
got a great sense of you knowhow to tell your own story.
Maybe I'll just let you tell usa little bit about how this
whole family complication sortof got started for you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20):
Well, the foundation is one of um, and I was rooted
in a fundamentalist faith.
My normal was a literal Bible,Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, you
know, Jesus came and died on across, and we a literal
scripture.
And everything we did waswrapped around my parents'

(01:42):
religion.
I mean, it was the schools weattended, the music we listened
to, the clothing we wore, thefriends we had.
And uh, you know, they wereinsanely proud of their children
when we would go out and emulatethat Christianity.
I was a student leader, theylove that.
You know, student councilpresident, and I'm on stage

(02:03):
during the school chapelservices, and I'm reading verses
and leading prayers and beingthe nice young man.
They are so proud.
And because I had somecommunication skills and a love
for Christian music, I got intoChristian radio in 1990, and
they considered that kind of aform of ministry, and they were
so proud.

(02:23):
Our son is ministering thegospel, and he is carrying the
torch, carrying the mantle.
And uh then I became a Christianvideo producer or a video
producer for a company thatserved mostly church clients.
So now I'm doing another kind ofministry, and oh, we're so
proud, and he's exactly what wewanted, you know, that kind of
thing.

(02:43):
But uh, you know, when you startto challenge that, and when you
begin to resist and disagree,you begin to see the evidence of
a conditionality of love.
You know, I mean, my parentsloved me, but as far as
acceptance, you know, that was athousand percent until I started

(03:06):
to think for myself.
Yeah, and I started to disagree.
And then I began to see themclose down parts of themselves.
And I don't think they did it tobe cruel.
I think they see it as a kind oftough love, right?
If we're too accepting, thenwe're endorsing this guy as he's
off, you know, he's off thereservation, he's the prodigal,

(03:26):
and we don't want to be that.
We want to try to, you know,bring him back to the fold.
Sometimes you got to be stern todo that, stern rebukes, you
know.
And uh so that led to um whathas been, let's see, I started
sort of my hardcore journey outof the faith back in 2007 at 13
years.
So it's been off and on 13years.

(03:47):
I mean, the last couple of yearshave been pretty quiet just
because I drew some extremelyhard lines in the sand.
But um, you know, we're notclose.
In some uh very important ways,we're strangers.
Our paths cross every once in along while.
A little bit of small talk.
Good to see you.
Have a nice day.

(04:08):
We go on with our lives, but alot goes on under the surface
there, you know.

SPEAKER_04 (04:13):
Do you have intentional communications with
your parents at all?

SPEAKER_03 (04:19):
Yeah, I mean, I a couple of days ago I got a text,
or you know, actually, I'll getthe occasional text.
Usually it's just a note thatyour mom loves you and God loves
you.
It's something along thoselines, you know.
I just let those go.
Uh, mom called the other nightand we had like a 15-minute
conversation, probably the firstone we'd had in three months.

(04:42):
You know, hey, how's it going?
How's dad?
His health isn't great, youknow.
Uh, you guys being safe duringCOVID?
How are, you know, how arethings?
What are you guys up to?
You know, just it was and butyou can feel in those
conversations, you can feel allthat is not being said.
You know, uh my parents have amuch deeper relationship with

(05:05):
their other children.
I have a twin sister, right?
She's five minutes older than Iam, and she is a devout Bible
believer, church going, Sundaygo to meet, and I love Jesus,
God warrior, human being.
And and they love that abouther, you know, and and I think
because of that, they're moretransparent with her and they

(05:26):
have just a bigger bond, agreater bond.
They're friends.
Yeah.
And, you know, my parents and I,uh, we're family in the sense of
biofamily.
Uh, we're friendly when we gettogether, but we're, I mean, uh,
we're not really friends.
I don't think we hugely lookforward to the times that our
paths cross.

(05:46):
There have been a lot of wordsthat have been said, a lot of
emails and texts, and justterrible phone calls and
judgment and shame and confusionand rejection.
And uh it's, you know, it's hardto get excited about going over
to mom's house.
Yeah, I mean, you know, evenvirtually, hey, a Zoom call with
mom.

(06:06):
It's it's hard to get excitedabout that when you feel like
that they have checked theiracceptance of you.
And uh, so I I feel a sense ofdistance.
It's like I I look at my familythrough glass.
I've said on the podcast, Isometimes I feel like I'm
related to people that I I don'trelate to.
Yeah.
And that's hard, you know,because we are a family, but

(06:30):
what do we really have incommon?
Do we really, you know, do wehave that sort of, I don't know,
are they able to let down theirguard?
Like no one ever asks me how'swork going.
They ask each other, how's workgoing?
How are your travels back when Iwas traveling?
You know, they would theywouldn't ask me how was the
recent Free Thought or HumanistConvention?

(06:52):
Never.
Uh, how was church?
They'll do that.
How was your mission trip?
But they never talk to me aboutmy life because it's like the
the thing we don't speak of.
And uh, you know, it doesn'ttake long before you feel
othered.
You feel like an outsider.
And so then you go and youchoose family, people who accept

(07:12):
you and respect you for who youare.
And that's largely what I'vedone in my own circle, you know,
the family you choose.

SPEAKER_04 (07:19):
No, like that can be hard because I mean I spent six
years estranged from my mom.
And we've uh this past summer wekind of reconnected, and I think
we covered a lot of ground asfar as sorting out our
misunderstandings of each other.
And I've come to a place where Ireally do love and appreciate my
mom.
And you know, I I look forwardto speaking with her, but I can

(07:42):
identify with a lot of whatyou're saying as far as how
there's certain questions thatshe won't ask, there's certain
details that I feel like I gottahold back from volunteering, and
it's it it's it's complicatedbecause I mean, yeah, what
you're saying, you're you'rerelated to these people, but
there's always going to be thatseparation.
And you know, for me, I I cameto realize that I never really

(08:06):
had a great connection with mymom even back when I was a
Christian.
Though we did have a lot to talkabout.
Like I'm wondering with you andyour parents, you know, you'd
said that they were proud of youfor all your work in the
Christian circles and whatnot.
But do you feel like yourrelationship had actual
substance back when you werestill a believer?

SPEAKER_03 (08:27):
I do.
I mean, a lot of it, I mean, Iwas I was never like a mama's
boy or daddy's boy, kind of Iwas always different than my
siblings.
Like, you know, they werepeacekeepers.
And even when I was a believer,I was a crusader.
I love to argue, I love todebate.
I, you know, I was out therefighting for what I thought was

(08:50):
right.
You know, back then it wasJesus-oriented stuff.
I was on the front lines, I waskind of a ham.
You know, I I mean, I can keepto myself easily, I can keep my
own company very well, and thatway I'm kind of an introvert,
but I can also stand on stage.
And this was the case back whenI was, you know, even in junior
high.
Oh, look, Seth, you know, it's apolished young man.
He's you need to put him outfront.

(09:11):
So youth for Christ and allthese other things are
interested.
And so, you know, while theywere content to sort of be
behind the scenes, I was more ofa visible thing guy, you know.
But even then, you know, I wasmore temperamental and I was
more volatile and I upset theapple carts, you know, even when
I disagreed with my parents interms of theology, I remember

(09:33):
they loved the televangelistOral Roberts.
In fact, they met at OralRoberts University, right?
So they nearly deified the guy.
And I always thought he was justa con man.
And so all my, you know, rest ofmy family would be like, keep
the peace, don't talk about OralRoberts.
I'm the one sitting across thetable going, that guy's a joke.

(09:54):
You know, he's getting rich,he's full of crap.
You know, I was always that guy.
Uh, so that part of mypersonality was always there.
But, you know, we were prettytight.
We'd have conversations aboutwhatever, you know, we spent a
lot of time together.
And and uh while when I left thenest, I really left.
I mean, I didn't have I didn'tfeel like a strong boomerang

(10:17):
back home.
I'm a pretty independent force.
Uh, you know, I I didn't feelany sense of like emotional
separation, really.
Not until I started to disagree.
And then you, you know, youreally see the temperature
change.
And, you know, that's tough.
That that's a tough thing to seehappen.
Then resentment builds.

(10:39):
You know, you're like, well,look, if you're not going to
resent me for who I am, screwyou.
You know, those things happen inyour middle.
Fine.
You know, if if I'm not, if Idon't get to talk about me in my
life and I don't get to beauthentic while you do.
And I'll tell you the otherchallenge I've got is uh my
parents put atheists in a cookiecutter.

(11:02):
Like, this is what atheists are.
I love it, by the way, whenbelievers tell atheists what
they are, what they think, whattheir value system is, what
their philosophies are.
I love it.
It's a nonstop struggle for us.
They always tell, well, you'rean atheist, so you just you
think this.
And I'm like, Well, how no?
And where did you come to thatconclusion?
Right, that often they'll knowthe caricature of the

(11:22):
non-believer in God.
I remember one conversation Ihad with dad, and he's like, you
know, the atheist is their lifeis filled with joylessness and
sadness and a lack of purpose.
And, you know, there can be nogoodness, no joy without the the
father kind of thing.
It's how my father talks, hereally does talk that way.

(11:44):
And I told him, Dad, I'm I'mhappy, I'm I've got a good life,
it's filled with purpose andgoodness and love and laughter,
and I'm in a really good place.
And his response was, I don'tthink so.
It doesn't compute and he, youknow, tilt, he doesn't process

(12:05):
because, you know, if theatheist doesn't fit in this box,
and this is true with my parentsfor all of the people they have
othered, whether it's peoplefrom other nations or Democrats
because they're hardcore RushLimbaugh conservatives.
You know, Democrats are allthis, they're all, you know,
gleefully aborting babies asthey try to turn the uh the

(12:26):
country into national socialiststate and they want to ruin
freedom and they hate Christmasand blah, blah, blah.
You know, they just have all ofthese caricatures.
And you try to, you know,explain to them that your
perception about what all thisis is really wrong.
You are embracing a cartoon ofwhat I am, but you don't know

(12:47):
me.
And I'd like you to get to knowme.
But if they were to allow thatvulnerability, what happens in
their own belief system, thathouse of cards may fall.
You know, if they start tothink, well, maybe Seth really
does have goodness in his lifeand doesn't need gods for it.
And what if he can generate hisown sense of purpose?
What if he can love properly andloyally and be a genuinely

(13:11):
meritorious human being?
But he doesn't require myreligion to do that.
I mean, the implications of themmaking that admission, I mean,
they're essentially nullifying apart of their critical faith.
And so instead of doing that,they just double down, they
continue to other me and talkabout the cartoon of me instead
of addressing me as athree-dimensional human being.

SPEAKER_04 (13:33):
No, I think it's it's tough for them because
they're so used to believingeverything they believe, you
know, without question, youknow.
And when you come along and yousay, Well, hey, you got it
wrong, it's not you trying toclear up a misunderstanding with
mom and dad, it's you arguingwith God.
Yeah, and there's no way you'regonna win in that conversation.

(13:56):
They can't hear you, theyshouldn't hear you.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (13:59):
Well, if they see the prodigal, right?
Uh we need to bring the prodigalhome.
If they see you as a petproject, if you are a mission
field, they've alreadyobjectified you.

SPEAKER_04 (14:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (14:08):
And uh, you know, I'm not a project, you know, my
life is not your mission field.
I'm not broken.
I have every right.
I remember once being on thephone with my mother, you know,
do I have the right to pursuetruth on my own terms?
You know, to try to pursue anauthentic life on my own terms.
She couldn't answer thequestion, which was a no, is
what really what she was tryingto say.

(14:29):
But uh, and if I was to ask, I'msure, you know, do you accept
me, your son, as I am?
I don't know if I would get ayes answer.
I would probably get uh a silentanswer or none or a no, because
acceptance means endorsement.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (14:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (14:46):
And you know, what a tragic place to be.
Think of all the goodness Imissed out on when I was that
person.
Because I used to be a lot thatway.
You know, I didn't know muchabout the world, but I knew they
were wrong.
I didn't know much about my ownreligion, but I knew it was
right.
I lived in this tiny littlesandbox and I felt secure and
safe and superior, and I wasmissing out on the rest of the
world.

(15:07):
It was my late 30s before I wasintroduced to all of these other
things.
And I felt like I wasted so muchtime, but now, you know, I'd
never go back, I'd never tradeall this in to go back into the
matrix.
And and I want to communicatethat that to them.
But you know, when they'rethey're not listening, when
they're in rescue mode, thoseconversations usually end in

(15:28):
frustration.
And if I'm to be totallytransparent, I gave up on those
conversations with my own familylong ago.

SPEAKER_04 (15:36):
Do you feel like resentment is a component on
either end of this relationshipequation?

SPEAKER_03 (15:44):
I hear some people say I'm mad at my parents
because they lied to me, meaningthey taught a fiction as fact.
I don't care much for thatstatement because my parents
believe that they were teachingus what was true and they were
operating in that way becausethey felt what they're they were

(16:04):
doing was good and right.
They were trying, desperatelytrying, with all of their might
to do the right thing.
So I'm not angry with my parentsfor being true believers and
just trying to rescue us fromhell and give us salvation and
the love of God and whatever.
I mean, they're indoctrinated,they're brainwashed, but they
weren't evil, you know.

(16:24):
Yeah.
My resentment came when theywould use the family card to
cross boundaries, and familiesare notorious for doing this.
Yeah.
Parents will say, Well, this isnot how I raised you, which is
an amazing declaration becausewhat it says is you don't have

(16:44):
your own autonomy.
You are an echo of me, right?
I raise you this way, and whenyou grow up, you will marry the
way I think, you will think likethis, act like this, you will
vote like this, worship likethis, and you will live
according to my template orelse.
And then you don't, and thenoften families will give

(17:06):
themselves permission to playthe family card to cross a very
intimate personal boundary.
They walk into your life in verypersonal ways to shame you and
to call you this and say thatyou're an embarrassment to the
family.
And we failed as a parent, thatkind of emotional blackmail.
If only I've heard this one, ifonly I'd done a better job of

(17:26):
sharing the love of Jesus withyou.
How could you do this to yourpoor mother?
You know, that kind of thing.
And uh that's when theresentment in me began to build,
because um, it wasn't just abouta disagreement, even on a
critical issue.
It was about a family memberdeciding that because they were

(17:47):
on my bio family tree, that theyhad permission to waltz into my
house and into my life and intomy relationships and into my
value systems and just pronounceme everything short of evil, if
not evil outright.
And it went on for so long.
I mean, I get text after textafter email, these long
diatribes saying you're wrongand do this, and you're just
following the religion ofRichard Dawkins, and you can't

(18:09):
be moral and you can't have joyand you're gonna burn in hell
and who knows what else.
I finally just said, if you donot stop, I will block you, I
will remove you from all of mycorrespondence.
So please stop.
Okay.
You're gonna have to trust yourGod enough to believe that if
you prayed for my salvation andyour God cares and is listening,

(18:33):
that He's got it, right?
You've handed the baton.
If you genuinely believe that,then you're off the hook, and
you're gonna have to trust theGod that you say is so powerful
and stop with all of this, youknow, badgering.
And it was a reflex, they simplycould not stop.
And so I got more texts and Igot more emails, and I went

(18:53):
through and I just pulled it upand hit block contact, block
email, block, block, andeverything hit a wall, and I
blocked them for most of acouple of years.
Uh they finally got the message,and now at this moment we have a
rather uneasy piece, but it is akind of piece, and it's better

(19:14):
than nothing.

SPEAKER_02 (19:19):
Thank you for listening to When the Bow
Breaks.
As always, please remember tolike, follow, and share.
Links in this week's show notes.

SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
They finally got the message, and now at this moment
we have a rather uneasy peace,but it is a kind of peace, and
it's better than nothing.

SPEAKER_04 (19:45):
It's more of a more of a ceasefire than a mending of
fences.

SPEAKER_03 (19:49):
Yeah, it's an absence of conflict.
But I'll tell you this.
Um, and I've told this story inthe past, I don't mean to
blather on, my friend, but umthere was A family member.
I told this show the story onthe show, but maybe your
listeners haven't heard it.
But it's such a good case study.
Um, I got a cousin, she's like15 years older than I am.

(20:12):
And we saw each other when I wasgrowing up off and on.
We were never hugely close, butwe had real affection.
Her name is Sue.
Well, Sue lives in Chicago, andI got a message.
This was a few years ago.
Got a message from my sister.
Hey, Sue's going to be in town.
And this is like a rare thing.
And we'd sure love for you tostop by and see her.
I'm sure she'd love to see you.
And I said, okay, great.

(20:33):
So I uh showed up, and so thefamily's there.
We're all sitting around thisgreat big table, and there's Sue
and her husband, Mark.
And Sue's just trying to catchup.
And she doesn't really know muchabout me or hardly anybody, what
we've been up to.
So she starts to go around thetable.
Hey, so what do you do for aliving?
And tell me about your life.

(20:54):
And so, you know, I've got abrother-in-law who's a deacon of
the church with a seminarydegree.
And this, you know, his kids areon missions, trips doing
evangelical work, and you know,someone else has a job in
medicine and all they're soproud of it, and someone else
has a job doing this, and youknow, someone else works as a
volunteer in the school, andthey're coming around the table,

(21:15):
and I'm shrinking in my chairbecause my parents are sitting
right there.

SPEAKER_04 (21:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (21:20):
And after all of the just junk that's happened, and
all the conflict and all theshouts and all the tears, I'm
like, please, I just want to getout of this.
I did not come here tonight tobe put on the spot to see a big
blow up.
I'm not here for this.
And so I thought to myself,well, all right, I'm just gonna
deflect and I'm just gonna tryto keep the peace.
I'm gonna be vague.

(21:41):
So she comes to me and she goes,So what do you do?
And I said, Well, you know, II'm um I'm an online
broadcaster.
I do uh online, I do, you know,audio production, video
production, and some onlinebroadcasting.
And something along those lines.
And then I said, you know, anduh someone and I kind of
deflected to the person next tome, but I could tell she wasn't

(22:03):
at all satisfied with thatanswer.
Like she knew there was a lotmissing.
So she comes back to me.
Well, what's your podcast about?
And I said, Well, again, thepodcast is called The Thinking
Atheist.
My mother and father sitting infront of me like statues.
And I said, Uh, we deal withreligious issues, we talk about

(22:27):
issues relating to religion.
And I stopped with that, youknow, and uh tried to deflect.
And, you know, she wasn't goingto be satisfied with that
either.
It piqued her curiosity evenmore.
And while I was sitting there, Ihad this moment of clarity that
everybody else at that table wasable to be without apology their

(22:51):
authentic self.
They didn't sit around and tryto, you know, excuse their way
out of giving a straight answer,an honest answer about who they
were and what they did and whatthey loved.
You know, I they weren't overthere sitting on their hands
thinking, well, I don't want tomake anybody else upset because
I didn't have to.
Why was I treated with a doublestandard?
Why am I not allowed to talkabout who I am, what my value

(23:13):
system is, what I do for aliving?
And so she came back to me andshe's like, Well, tell me more
about this podcast.
What is it?
And I looked at her straight inthe eye and I said, I host the
most popular atheist podcast inthe world.
And there was silence at thetable, you know.
And I waited for the nuclearmeltdown.

(23:35):
Yeah, I was waiting for mom anddad just to hit the roof, and it
didn't happen.
There was a little bit ofsilence, and then everybody went
on.
And um, we got through the restof the night without incident.
And after they went back toChicago, I got an email.
And she said, Hey, you know,I've been thinking about what

(23:57):
you said.
My husband, you know, he's usedto be a Catholic, but he's kind
of on a journey.
Would it be I'm reading yourbook?
She said, which is crazy.
So she picked up my booksomewhere on between that
conversation and Chicago.
And she said, Can I give myhusband your email address?
Because I think you could helphim sort of with his journey to
encourage him, perhaps.

(24:17):
And I'm like, absolutely, youknow.
And so he and I had this longexchange over the period of
weeks.
That would have never happenedhad I not been my authentic
self.
Right.
And, you know, he would and Iwould have never had a chance to
connect in that way.
And I made a pact with myselfever since that day that
whenever somebody asks me what Ido for a living, unless I just

(24:37):
don't feel like talking aboutit, like I was on an airplane or
something, I'm not gonna sit onmy hands or apologize.
I'm gonna tell you exactly I'man atheist, activist, author,
podcaster, video producer,public speaker.
I'm just gonna throw it outthere.
You can take it or leave it, butI'm stuck, I'm no longer going
to apologize for who I am, whatI think, or what I do.

SPEAKER_04 (24:59):
No, and and that's gotta be like quite a big relief
for you just to be able to getto that point.
I mean, like, I'm not exactlythere yet with my immediate
family.
You know, for many years I wentthrough that same struggle where
it's like I wanted to hesitatetalking about my deconversion,
my atheism, you know, you sortof brush past things.

SPEAKER_03 (25:19):
Man, do it.
I don't volunteer, I still don'twalk in with like there is no
god t-shirts.
I mean, I'm not I'm not therefor that, right?
But I mean, if someoneapproaches me in good faith and
says, Hey, tell me about whatyou do, okay, fine, no problem.
Uh, I do this.
Yeah.
And uh sometimes they cock theirhead and go, hmm, that's
interesting.
It becomes a little bit of a, Idon't know, some kind of a uh

(25:44):
you you see what people arereally like when they hear the
answer.

SPEAKER_04 (25:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:48):
Because in the state of Oklahoma, you hear the word
atheist, and people you knowthink that you are sacrificing
babies on a blood altar atnight, you know, and you're
cackling at the moon.
And yeah, they have this wild,weird, and then they meet
somebody who's just an everydayguy, and they're like, Really?
But more than a few people havehave uh heard about me and been

(26:11):
curious, and they'll pick up abook or I'll they'll ask me to
sign one and they'll go read it,and we'll actually have
conversations maybe over dinnerabout uh you know how what's
that about and what's thisabout?
And my hope is that, you know,if nothing else, even as I try
to plant the seeds of realdiscussion and curiosity in
them, that we realize that weprobably have more in common

(26:33):
than we have apart.
We all want goodness, we wantpeople not to be harmed in this
world.
You know, we love our families,we we we're human beings.
And uh that's been my biggestgoal.
You know, let's get past thestigma and the caricatures and
the cartoons, and let's try tofind each other as sort of
common agents in the humanexperience.

SPEAKER_04 (26:55):
Well, that's one of those areas in which you have
been instrumental in adjustingthe trajectory of my life.
You know, like I said at thebeginning of our conversation,
that I was very nervous inengaging with you because you
are one of my heroes, but it'snot because you know you're a
big deal in the online communityor that, you know, you've got
the most popular atheist podcaston the planet.

(27:18):
For me, it's a lot more personalthan that because when I first
started coming into a crisis offaith, and that's all I was, I
didn't think I was in theprocess of losing my
Christianity or anything likethat.
I'd come across some of youronline work.
And what I realized was was twothings.
First of all, that every area ofmy life had been overshadowed by

(27:40):
Christianity, and that wasproblematic for me.
I needed to examine all of that.
But more importantly, I realizedbecause of what you had said,
that all of us, regardless ofhow different we perceive
ourselves to be from each other,have infinitely more in common
than we have in conflict.

(28:00):
And that really made me hopefulthat I could go through these
big changes, but still manage torelate to the people that I love
the most.

SPEAKER_03 (28:11):
Well, that's a tremendous encouragement to me.
And I thank you for that.
I mean, there are some peopleout there who are genuinely
awful people, and we can justlook at them and say, Yeah,
that's awful, you know.
But I I'm amazed at how often,you know, religion's kind of a
window dressing for a lot ofpeople who live their lives as
humanists.
In fact, we see a lot of thework the churches do.

(28:32):
What they're doing isessentially humans helping
humans.
That's humanism.
Many people in the church aredoing what they do because they
genuinely want to help.
They're kind, compassionate,encouraging, charitable people
who often don't say they don'tget the benefit of the doubt by
uh atheist activists because wewe're guilty as well of
tribalism and othering people.

(28:53):
I mean, there are others who,you know, genuinely are doing,
you know, they're using charityas an excuse to try to um
indoctrinate people.
But I mean, I just think peopleare so often people.
I've met beautiful Christiansand I've met horrible atheists.
So beyond whatever label youare, I always am interested in
what kind of a person are you?
Let's start there.

unknown (29:13):
You know.

SPEAKER_04 (29:14):
So, in a way, I mean, with all of your atheist
activism, with your publicspeaking, with the podcast, the
outreach, the relationshipbuilding, everything you do, in
many ways, it sounds like it'skind of a sideways step from
your years in the ministry, fromyour years of doing the things
that made your parents proud.

(29:35):
And as you've already alludedto, you're a really big deal in
these kind of circles.
Have your parents ever, to yourknowledge, read your books or
listened to your podcast orheard any of your speaking
engagements?

SPEAKER_03 (29:53):
No, I mean, I'm I'm sure they haven't.
It's funny.
Um, I remember back when myautobiography, Deconverted, came
out in 2012.
Our paths crossed, and mom said,I heard you wrote a book.
And um, I think I said somethinglike, 'Well, yeah, would you
like to read it?' She'slike, 'No.

(30:14):
She's something along the linesof, 'Well, whatever you said, I
know it's wrong.' And uh that'stheir approach.
Yeah, I don't think they're atall interested.
They don't, there may be somepeople in the family tree who
have sampled at a podcast or avideo somewhere, but there is a
conspicuous lack of interest.

(30:37):
They know it exists.
They don't really dive in pastknowing it exists.
Uh, I don't think they're allthat interested in hearing the
challenges to their faith.
Maybe that drives part of it.
Maybe it's just easier to standon the high mountain and say,
oh, you know, poor Seth, we justneed to continue to pray for him

(30:58):
and show him the love of Jesus.
And one day he'll come back tothe fold.
And Jesus loves him so much.
You know, it's always easier todo that.
I mean, when I was a devoutbeliever, I wasn't interested in
disconfirming opinions or or uh,you know, legitimate criticisms
of my faith.
Why bother?
I already had the answer with acapital A and every conflicting

(31:20):
piece of information.
Well, I was a piece of thedevil.
I don't want anything to do withthe devil, you know.
And religions have theseprotective mechanisms placed in
there like that.
They're just part, they're bakedinto the uh to the whole
program.
But to my knowledge, they don'tthey don't read my books, they
don't watch my speeches, theydon't follow my work.
No.

SPEAKER_04 (31:40):
Yeah.
I I guess it's one of thosethings areas where we as the the
atheists in the equation dealingwith religious family members,
we've got a bit of a moredifficult situation to navigate
in that they can be really harshwith us at times, just downright
abusive and mean, but they don'thave to suffer with the guilt

(32:03):
complex that comes along withthat because they're doing quote
unquote the right thing.
Whereas if we want to stand asimilar ground, we want to
approach them just as directlyand be just as vocal with our
beliefs and our perspectives,uh, even knowing that it's going
to be poorly received, thattheir feelings are going to be

(32:24):
hurt, we don't have a similarjustification where we can say,
okay, well, we're doing theright thing, we're doing God's
work.
Do you feel like you'redisadvantaged in some ways in
trying to approach certaintopics with your mom and dad?

SPEAKER_03 (32:39):
Well, uh, you know, I don't really approach much
with them anymore.
Um I find it interesting thatthey get so upset and they're so
freaked out, they're soconstantly concerned and
obsessed.
You know, they're always, Imean, I can tell the sort of the
buzzing in my family tree aboutme.

(33:00):
I know when I leave the roomthat there's all sorts of
nauseatingly condescending pietygoing on, perhaps even a prayer
on my behalf.
I mean, I know, I'm not stupid.
But um, I always think it's justodd and I think extremely
telling that they are sothreatened by a disagreeing

(33:21):
position.
If they believe in a God thatcannot be harmed, and they know
that that omnipotent God wouldnever be concerned about a pithy
human atheist like myself,right?
That God's already won thebattle against evil.
And if they believe that prayerworks, and they've already
prayed for my immortal soul thatGod would reveal Himself to me,

(33:43):
and they've already named it andclaimed it and all these things.
That's already the case.
Why in the world would they everbe worried about a guy like me?
Why would they be so fitful andanxious and uncomfortable,
squirming in their chairs andconstantly wanting to blurt out
something, you know, becausethey can't not be an apologist

(34:07):
or whatever.
At the moment, they have to doit because they they can't get
comfortable.
Well, why not?
And I think you know, there maybe a few reasons for that.
Perhaps part of it is that theygenuinely do believe I'm going
to hell and nothing else can beenjoyed unless I'm rescued, you
know.
But I also am suspicious thatdeep down, when they're being

(34:28):
honest with themselves andnobody's looking, I wonder if
they, in some cases, some ofthem at least, have a
deep-seated insecurity abouttheir own faith.
It's a fragile faith.
So, I mean, if they were toexist in the same space with a
disagreeing opinion, they'refearful.
What happens if there's a crackin the glass?
What happens if he sayssomething I can't refute or that

(34:50):
actually makes sense?
What happens if he revealedsomething about my faith that's
actually genuinely immoral andthat I can't defend as a moral
creature?
What happens if my back'sagainst the wall and I have to
do some serious and honestself-reflection?
What if, what if, what if?
And uh, you know, that's that'sinsecurity, which is weird for
people who claim just true,steadfast, absolute belief.

(35:14):
I think many of them under thesurface are really insecure
about their religion.
And so a defense mechanismagainst that insecurity is to
only surround yourself withreinforcement.
Everything is confirmation,confirmation bias fully in play.
You make sure that everybody,everything around you is an echo
of your faith.
You live in a cocoon and you arenever legitimately challenged.

(35:37):
I think that's that's common inthe faith for sure.

SPEAKER_04 (35:40):
Yeah.
You having gone through thedeconversion process, do you
ever wonder if your parents areenough like you or they would be
capable of indulging in certainquestions?

SPEAKER_03 (35:58):
I I'd like to say never give up on people.
Like if I can be reached, maybethey could be reached kind of a
thing.
But there is a sunk cost issuewith them.
I mean, they're both in theirmid-80s.
They have been not justbelievers, but apologists,

(36:18):
theologians.
My mother wrote and published aGreek New Testament study guide
used at the college level andteaches, or at least before
COVID, taught New TestamentGreek.
Uh, my father, I mean, thesethey are so their belief is so
woven into their identity.
So now they've downloaded itinto their children,
grandchildren, even greatgrandchildren at this point.

(36:42):
I don't see them ever changingtheir minds.
I am not a psychologist.
I don't know what that evenlooks like.
I suspect, though, a lot of itis that they are very prideful
people.
It would be humiliating to themto admit that they had spent
their 80 plus years living alie, wasting their time

(37:07):
misleading, not directly, notintentionally, but misleading
their family members who allwent off to become believers and
give birth to more believers, etcetera, right?
I mean, the implications of themstopping and saying we're wrong
on so many levels, I think it issomething they would never
entertain.

(37:28):
And um, I think that's tragic.

SPEAKER_02 (37:36):
You are listening to When the Bow Breaks.

SPEAKER_03 (37:47):
You know, we we see that it's possible Dan Barker
used to be a pulpit preacher,and his parents were Bible
believers.
When he became an atheist, hehad those hard conversations
with his mother and father, andthey're both atheists.
So it's possible.
When I look at my mother andfather knowing them, given their
history, given the context, Idon't have any real expectation

(38:09):
they'll ever budge an itch.
No, never.

SPEAKER_04 (38:13):
Okay, so with that being said, is there any hope of
like actual functionalfulfilling reconciliation?
Because I mean, it stands toreason that you're never going
to be convinced that magic istrue and that Jesus belongs in
your heart again.
And just as much your parentsare never going to be convinced
to evict Jesus.

(38:34):
Uh like this is always going tobe a huge conflict.

SPEAKER_03 (38:40):
Well, I don't have a problem with the disagreement
itself.
My problem is in regard to theviolation of boundaries.
Yeah.
The naming and the shaming andthe emotional blackmail, the
familial blackmail.
That's it made it really hard.
I suspect my father's in failinghealth, and I don't know what
the next year is going to hold,but it's, you know, it's going

(39:03):
to be tenuous.
And I'm at this point where I'vehad those conversations.
Like, what does that even looklike?
I'm sure I wouldn't be asked tospeak at his funeral.
I'm sure it's going to be ahugely religious affair.
Right.
You know, I mean, I certainlywould be there as his son,
public safety provided.
But, you know, while everybodyelse is saying he's in a better

(39:23):
place and one day, you know, Godcalled him home and well done,
good and faithful servant.
And they're not, I even though Iwould not use that platform as
my soapbox, you know, talk aboutour our disagreements and my
atheism.
I would I I think funerals needto be about remembering those
who we've lost.
I I I'm pretty much convincedthat I would not be asked to

(39:45):
participate for that reason.
Yeah.
And then how would I feel whenyou are pretty much a stranger
and you've already kind ofgrieved the relationship?
Which I have.
I mean, I grieved my father andmother a long time ago.
Um How does that even play out?
What's it look like?
What's it feel like?
And I don't know.

(40:06):
I I mean, I I told Natalie,like, you know, one day down the
way when the phone call happensand my father has died.
Um, you know, what will I feelan overwhelming sense of grief
and loss?
Will I still be looking at itthrough glass?
Will I feel um will I feelanything?

(40:26):
Will I feel everything?
And I just don't know.
And I think it's this is one ofthe reasons why in my own
activism, I try to encouragefamilies to acknowledge and
protect boundaries.
Uh, because and to try to seeeach other as human beings in

(40:48):
the hopes that it might preventsome of this in their lives.
You know, I actually uh did avideo about a man.
There was a man whose uh he heand his wife were believers.
When they were engaged, they gotmarried, and then he deconverted
after they'd already had a kid.
So, right, their lives arealready intertwined.
And he's on a journey, right?
He's just trying to figure itout.

(41:08):
And he comes to the realizationhe doesn't buy it anymore.
He's an atheist.
Well, his wife's going, Thisisn't the deal I made.
I thought we were a Christianhome.
We're going to raise Christiankids, and I thought somebody
would be sitting with me inchurch, and you know, so she
feels like the rugs pulled outfrom underneath her.
And I get that.
And she's going through a veryreal crisis in her heart, you

(41:30):
know.
And I produced a video calledThe Letter to a Christian
Spouse.
It was directed right to thiswoman and people like her, that
essentially said, try not to seethe label when you see your
husband and see the human being.
What has changed?
Is he still good?
Does he still love you?
Does he still love yourchildren?
Does he still charitable?
Does he still laugh with you?
Does he still has this have asense of life purpose?

(41:52):
Is his life still worth living?
You know, all of those things,if you see him as a person
first, then you can deal withthe disagreements later.
And I've spent a lot of myactivism, especially in the last
few years, trying to draw a bigred circle around that, you
know, our shared humanity.
I'm not successful as often asI'd like to be, but it's uh kind
of a passion of my heart.

SPEAKER_04 (42:12):
So you've had some experience with that, because as
I understand, Natalie either iscurrently or was somewhat
recently a person of faith, wasshe not?

SPEAKER_03 (42:22):
Yeah, she you know, used to be heavily involved in
the Christian church.
Um, I don't think she'd mind mesaying the way I say it that I
think she is uh more of a deistthese days.
She, you know, if someone says,Are you a Christian, she'll say
yes because that's the faithculture she came out of, but
she's not really engaged withthe Bible, she's not dogmatic.

(42:46):
I think her God belief is moreof a I think there's something
out there, and I think there's alife after this life.
But she frames that sort of withthe terminology she's familiar
with.
Yeah.
I mean, that's the language thatshe's comfortable with.
If you know, uh if she was afundamentalist, we would not
work.
I mean, I'll I'll just admit itoutright.

(43:07):
Like, okay, if she was like, Iwant you to be a church of me on
Sunday, I could not exist inthat universe.
I'm not going to go and andtithe 10% of my income and put
my name on the rolls and sign myidentity to a religious faith
anymore.
I'm not going to do that.
But if, you know, my gripe inthis world really isn't with the

(43:29):
deists.
You know, oh, I think there maybe something out there.
There's something bigger thanme, or, you know, we all go on,
we'll be reunited somewhere, orwhat?
I mean, yeah, those peoplearen't the ones right now that
I'm doing battle with.
They're not the ones who aretrying to change the laws to
protect and privilege a specificreligion.
They're not discriminatingagainst LGBT people or people of

(43:52):
color.
They're not the ones who are,you know, dancing over the state
church line to protect power andprivilege.
You know, the theocrats, that'swhere my energies go in this
fight.
The deist, whatever, knockyourself out.
You know, that sort of casualcultural, I just think there's
something up there making therainbows God.
I'm not worried about thatbecause that's not the God

(44:13):
that's trying to strip awaypeople's freedoms and harm other
people.
You know, that's really more ofa kind of a window dressing as
people live largely secularlives.

SPEAKER_04 (44:24):
You know, it sounds like you've really gone through
a journey of learning toidentify individuals rather than
just sort of stereotype themaccording to their their belief
set and whatnot.
So I think that's that'sactually a very commendable
thing.
And I know how difficult thatcan be.
I mean, when I first came out ofthe Christian faith myself, I

(44:45):
had lost a lot in thattransaction because it wasn't
just a case of losing everythingthat I had ever held to be true,
but I lost everybody who Ithought would always be there at
the same time.
So there's a lot of resentmentthat kind of came out of that,
thinking, you know, religion isnecessarily the culprit,

(45:07):
therefore, all forms of godbelief are toxic.
But, you know, over the yearsI've learned, I guess, as as you
have, that I mean, not everybodywho holds a god belief or a
something bigger belief is anasshole.
A lot of them are just wonderfulpeople.

SPEAKER_03 (45:22):
Yeah, I I mean when you're wounded by the faith,
it's justifiable to get.
I was mad, I get mad still.
And when you are cast off bypeople for being an atheist, and
you realize your friends wereconditional and often shallow
and petty and really weren'tfriends to begin with, I mean,
we're angry, you know, we grievethat.

(45:42):
I think that's natural.
And um, but when I got intoatheist activism, sometimes I
would see, you know, religion isa mental illness, is what they
would say.
And I'm like, no, you know, Iwasn't mentally ill when I
believed in God.
You know, religion's an idea.
I'd been indoctrinated with anidea, and ideas can be changed.

(46:04):
You know, my IQ didn't go oneway or the other when I was a
Christian or an atheist.
Just a fallacious argument.
And uh, you know, we we in theatheist movement tend to, you
know, we can be guilty oftribalism and we can be guilty
of othering people.
And so it's, you know, it's funto feel superior to look at a
religious person and say, geez,you're an idiot.

(46:26):
You know, all those, those,yeah, I've heard them say
religiotard or creatard or theseother slurs.
And, you know, they sit thereand chuckle at themselves.
And I just don't find thosethings good, healthy,
productive.
There are some awful believersdoing awful things, but there
are lots of a lot of people outthere who were like us.
You know, I mean, I wasn't a badperson when I was a Christian.

(46:48):
I had a lot of bad ideas that Ithought were good, but I was a
victim of bad ideas, and Ineeded to be disabused of those
ideas.
And I think, you know, if we'regoing to change the world, do we
sit here and throw rocks atpeople and say you're an idiot,
which doesn't change anybody'smind and only causes them to
double down?
Or we try to find opportunitiesto humanize them and perhaps

(47:11):
have that discussion overcoffee, where we lead with
questions as a human being,compassionately with goodwill,
in the hopes of maybe seeingthat door crack open just a
little bit, you know, and uhtelling them it's okay.
It's okay.
You know, doubt is not a sin,you're not broken.
It curiosity is great.
A worthy God would embrace yourcuriosity.

(47:33):
Let's go down the bunny trail,let's see where it takes us,
kind of thing.
And uh, I think we have moresuccess in uh those approaches
than simply screaming that uhreligions, uh religious people
are all idiots, you know, thoset-shirts that they might feel
satisfying to wear in themicrosecond, but they're not

(47:54):
gonna change the world.

SPEAKER_04 (47:57):
This is gonna be maybe a silly question, but I
found this question personallydifficult when I was estranged
from my mom.
Do you love your parents?

SPEAKER_03 (48:10):
Uh yes, uh I do.
I don't feel affection.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it makes perfect sense.
If I knew they had a need, I youknow, and they've had a need.
Hey Seth, could you take themdinner because dad went to the
hospital?
Could you drop something off attheir doorstep so they'll have

(48:31):
something to eat and if there'sa crisis?
I would certainly care and wantto help to be there in that way.
But I don't, you know, when Isee mom on the collar ID, I
sigh, like, oh so you know, Ithink love, love, loving someone

(48:53):
and liking them, you know,sometimes those two don't always
line up.
Isn't that weird?

SPEAKER_04 (48:58):
Well, no, I mean I I've gone through estrangement
from a religious parent myself.
So I mean I can personallyidentify with this.
I think a lot of our listenersprobably can too.
It seems that more often thannot, matters of faith do become
a strong component in thesefamily difficulties, we'll say.

(49:21):
I mean, not everything resultsin a fallout cease of contact.

SPEAKER_03 (49:26):
Yeah.
I mean, we have um pleasantconversations where we talk
about uh you know this and that,and we'll even, you know,
chuckle and laugh together.
Um, so I mean, we have momentswhere we do that, but it but it
takes a little bit of work, youknow.
It's it's always a little harderthan it needs to be.

SPEAKER_04 (49:46):
Yeah, I I get once in a while some strange comments
from my mom.
Like I do um another podcastcalled Turn Up the AC.
And uh on on that show, it'ssort of like an introspective,
retrospective, biographical sortof exploration of how my
personal philosophies havedeveloped and are developing.

(50:09):
And whereas my mom's not reallyinterested in any of my atheist
activism, she's not terriblyinterested in this show, I
think, because the topic offamily estrangement is a
sensitive one for her.
Yeah, she is curious about youknow, turn up the AC.
And you know, she's listened tobasically everything I've ever

(50:29):
done, and some of the commentsthat come out of that are things
that maybe you've heard over theyears from believers, you know,
like uh almost like you know,you're you're more of a
Christian than some of theChristians I know because they
don't know how to measuregoodness without invoking a
deity.
Yeah, do you has that been acomponent of any of your family

(50:50):
circles uh interactions?

SPEAKER_03 (50:52):
When you are trained to see everything in a religious
framework, it's a reflex.
Like if I go to an atheist orfree thought convention, what
they see, well, it's a gatheringof people with speakers, uh
that's atheist church, right?
If you enjoy communal music, andyou know, we'll go and everybody
sings.
You know, I remember oneconvention, they played John

(51:12):
Lennon's Imagine.
Well, and my family would callthat religious hymns or atheist
hymns, rather.
Um, you have your own preachers.
Uh, my mother thinks thatDawkins is like the prophet of
atheism, and we just simplyblindly follow him long
lockstep.
And I'm like, you have no ideawhat you're talking about,
because in the free thoughtcommunity, people love him, hate

(51:35):
him, everything in between, theyagree, disagree.
I mean, this whole idea of sortof this blind allegiance and
loyalty to a savior figure isjust it's a revelation of how
they use religious thinking andreligious framing to try to
describe non-religious events.
I think also the church has donea very good job of stamping a

(51:58):
brand of ownership on thingsthat people do anyway.
We're communal creatures, we aretribal.
We want to get together tocelebrate shared interest and
pursue common goals.
So if you get together to dothat, I mean, if you're at a
free thought event, you'repursuing common interest, you're
learning new things, pursuingcommon goals to help change the

(52:20):
world.
Uh, does that church?
Well, no more than Comic-Con ischurch, because that's a common
interest of people gathering orbowling night or a rock concert
or something else.
But you know, when you areprogrammed to uh call everything
religious by reflex, and alsowhen you're trying to deflect

(52:40):
and marginalize, you know,atheism is just another
religion, is a sort of designedas a conversation stopper.
And so they use that as atactic.
And uh I find it a weird defensebecause it kind of marginalizes
their own position.
Well, your religion's no betterthan my religion, you know.
I'm like, well, yeah, is thatreally the hill you want to

(53:03):
fight on?
Because that doesn't seem liketrue conviction to me.

SPEAKER_02 (53:10):
The views expressed on the show are opinion and
experience based and are notintended as a substitute for
therapy.

SPEAKER_04 (53:24):
Okay, I know we're getting towards the the tail end
of our time here, but Alexis,our other host, would very much
like to uh join us in theconversation, even if it's just
briefly towards the end here.
So I'm gonna go ahead and bringher into the conversation if
that's okay.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (53:44):
Hi, Seth.
Can you see me?

SPEAKER_03 (53:46):
Hi, Alexis.
It's nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 (53:48):
Sorry, I don't have my setup here today.
I've I've been uh kind of busyand preoccupied with with family
stuff, but I I did want to comein and say hello.
It's nice to have you on theshow.
We're very excited.
I don't know if he's what he'stold you.
He's a big fan of you.

SPEAKER_03 (54:03):
He said you were the hive mind.
He said you were the brains ofthe operation that uh all roads
lead to Alexis.
So I'll treat you with thatextra measure of courtesy and
respect today.

SPEAKER_01 (54:14):
Well, thank you for being here.
It's really, really glad.
It's really great to have you.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 (54:20):
Okay, I was just telling Seth before I let you on
that you had had a question thatwas sort of like framed from the
from your own personalexperience.
And I didn't cover that questionat any point.
I thought maybe that was onethat you'd like to ask yourself.

SPEAKER_01 (54:37):
I guess, you know, with coming out of a religious
group and then experiencingestrangement kind of all at the
same time, I guess my familythought that when I estranged
myself that I shied away fromthem because I was ashamed.

(54:59):
Uh, but in reality, I wasn'tashamed.
I just knew that watching mydeconversion up close would be
painful for my family.
And I didn't think that theycould handle it or I could
handle it.
And so I thought it best to takeseveral degrees of separation

(55:19):
for the benefit of both parties.
I don't know in hindsight ifthat was the best decision, but
I felt like that was the onethat I had to make.
Can you identify with this?

SPEAKER_03 (55:32):
Well, I took the opposite approach.
Um, I don't know if it was agood idea.
But my parents beingtheologians, when I began to
have doubts and deconstructChristianity, my first step was
to go to them.
All right, well, if anybody'sgot the answers, it's going to

(55:52):
be the wise old man and the wiseold woman who've been teaching
us the Bible for so long.
And uh began to say, well, whatabout this in the Bible?
And how come this doesn't makeany sense?
And how do you reconcile this?
You know, and I I went to them,and so they were part of my at
least my initial process.
And the result was that theyjust flipped out, you know,

(56:13):
because holy cow, did you knowSeth's got questions and these
are serious questions, andsomething's going on with our
son?
You know, then they went rightinto panic and rescue mode.
Um, did you distance yourselfbecause you feared that they
would pull uh emotionallyblackmail you, or did you just
need room to breathe while yougot your bearings?

SPEAKER_01 (56:34):
Um, yeah, one of the main reasons was I I just needed
to breathe because myestrangement, you know, it's
complicated.
I I didn't estrange myself justbecause of religion.
Uh with some family things goingon, you know, some, you know,
just a toxic behavior.

SPEAKER_03 (56:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:50):
And uh, you know, I felt like that was my last
resort.
And so it was, I was reallydealing with a lot more uh than
I thought going into it.
And um, I guess I shied awaybecause yeah, I wanted room to
breathe.
I uh I didn't want anyonedisrupting uh this momentum of

(57:10):
thought process that I had, thisindependent thinking that I was
never allowed to possess growingup.
And so I felt like for thebenefit of myself, it was most
important for me to separatefrom them.
And I tried explaining that.

SPEAKER_03 (57:27):
Did you tell them at the front end?
Look, I'm gonna take a littletime for me, or did you just
sort of disappear?

SPEAKER_01 (57:34):
No, I did.
I sent them a letter kind ofexplaining why and what what
what I expected uh was to havesome time.
And I I guess my mother hadreceived the letter, but she
didn't show it to my father.
So my father has been wonderingthis entire time.

SPEAKER_03 (57:53):
Uh well, I like the idea.
You know, sometimes it's likestanding right uh right on top
of a of a painting and you'retrying to see it from an inch
away.
You're just not gonna be able tofocus.
You can't see the picture.
So you have to step back and letyour eyes sort of recenter and
focus and take it all in fromcorner to corner to corner.

(58:15):
And um, I think that's somethingthat not enough of us do,
especially when you know thatthere are going to be all these
sort of peering eyes on you.
And if you had some toxicity andsome other baggage going on, I
can understand why you'd wantto, you know, do this on your
own terms at your own pace.
I myself, I didn't do it thatway.

(58:39):
But I will also say that that18-month period was marked by
tumult and conflict and tearsand shouts and pain, and they
made it harder.
And in some ways, I kind of envyyou that you were able to sort
of go to a safe spot where youcould breathe the air and focus

(59:02):
your eyes and ears and and kindof start to figure it out on
your own terms without quite asmuch distraction.
And the truth is, and this isconf uh uh um it's uh not
contradicting, it'scontroversial to say you don't
owe your family anything.
Like we tend to think we owe ourfamilies this or that because

(59:23):
they're mom, dad, siblings,whatever.
But uh honestly, you you reallydon't.
I mean, you don't owe them anexplanation.
The fact that you told themyou're gonna take a little time
and you took that time, I thinkis absolutely yours to do.
I I think that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 (59:37):
Well, thank you.
Yeah, no, it's it's nice to bevalidated in that way because
you know, sometimes you doquestion did I do this the right
way?
Could I have done a better jobof this?

SPEAKER_03 (59:46):
I mean, I don't know if there's a right way.
I'm not Yoda on this stuff,right?
I'm just a guy, but I'm just Ithe idea that you decided here's
my framework.
I'm gonna tell my family.
You can't control that your momhelped.
The information hostage fromyour father.
That's not on you.
And uh you felt given yourhistory, this was the best way

(01:00:08):
to move forward.
I don't, you know, there may notbe an A B answer, but it sounds
to me like you did it on yourterms, and that's good enough.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:15):
Yeah.
I think that's good for ourlisteners to hear too.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:20):
No, it's like, and I I think this is great actually
that I guess all of us get toweigh in a little bit because
our estrangement stories arevery different.
I mean, with you and Alexis, youwere uh more or less the ones
that initiated the um deceasedcontact.
With me, my mom had made thedecision for me quite suddenly.

(01:00:42):
But at the same time, there's somuch commonality in not just the
the the three of our stories,but also amongst all of the
stories that we've heard doingthis podcast.
When family relationships gowrong, it's painful, it's
confusing.
But I I like what you said thatyou know you don't owe anybody
anything.
I mean, we owe ourselves toself-preserve, to self-protect,

(01:01:04):
things like that.

unknown (01:01:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:06):
I like the idea of communicating if you want, you
know, just so they know you'renot, you know, in danger or you
know, you haven't totallyslipped off the rails in some
sort of an untoward way, butjust say, look, I'm gonna take a
little time and space.
Don't worry that it's all good.
But I'm I'm gonna navigatingsome stuff.
I kind of like that idea.

SPEAKER_04 (01:01:25):
Yeah, it's like not coming from a place of hate,
it's coming from a place ofsomething else.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:30):
Yeah, mostly just to make your life easier, right?
Because if they don't knowexactly why you disappeared, now
the rumor mill kicks in and thatmakes your life more
complicated.
But everybody, you know, theycan approach it any way they
want.
And I heard somebody say oncethat all families are
dysfunctional.
And I think to a degree, that'skind of true.
I mean, we tend to fall in lovewith this idea that, well, you

(01:01:52):
know, the family next door arethe people posting amazing
perfect photographs on Facebook.
Well, that's the gold standardof families.
And we all I'm not that, sosomehow I've failed or fallen
short.
But the truth is, is that you'relooking at the airbrushing of
lives, you're not looking atlives behind closed doors.
And all families have theirissues, their problems, their

(01:02:13):
bad agents, their drama, theirlovely people and they're
horrible people.
All families are dysfunctional,and you're not alone
experiencing so many of thosethings.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:24):
Okay, so you had mentioned that you like the idea
of being able to communicate orcommunicating.
I just I know we're comingtowards the the end of our time
here, so I just want to kind oflike end with uh this this one
question, which is that comingfrom the place of understanding

(01:02:44):
where you have had a frustratingtime of getting your parents to
see you for who you are and tounderstand or even accept your
position, if you could wave amagic wand and communicate
something to mom and dad andactually have them genuinely
receive and accept andunderstand it, what would that
message look like?
Well, I'd like them to see pastthe label.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:06):
You know, for them now it's Seth the atheist,
right?
And it's one of those thingswhere everything they see in my
life sort of goes through thatfilter and it cheats them out of
really focusing on a guy who ismore comfortable in his own skin

(01:03:27):
than he's ever been.
It's weird because when I was atrue believer, I was actually
more unhappy.

unknown (01:03:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:35):
When I really, when I believed in God, I was I
struggled more, I was moredepressed.
I blamed myself for the days Iwas down or the problems I had
because you know, I'm more of asinner and God must have
withheld his blessing.
Or, you know, I was I wastotally guilty about everything
from you know having sexuallyimpure thoughts to what do I do

(01:03:57):
with my gay best friend and howto kind of accept or reject him
and all of my other worldviews,you know, they weren't
necessarily fitting, but then Iwould just ignore them, but that
creates kind of an unrest.
Man, you come out of that andyou look around and you think,
you know, I used to believe Iwas going to heaven.

(01:04:18):
I'm gonna live forever in amansion and I'm gonna have
perfect peace and joy.
And I was terrified of dying.
It was when I got out of thefaith, I don't believe in an
afterlife, that now my fear ofdeath is totally gone.
It's just weird.
It's just weird.
And uh so I would like them tosee that.
Agree, disagree.

(01:04:39):
I'd like them to see a guy whoI'm not sitting around in the
corner with my arms tuckedaround my knees, rocking back
and forth, weeping for all thatI've lost in a haze of sin and
evil and depression and despair.
I'm a guy who I I finally gotintroduced to me.
Hi, I'm Seth.
Well, great.
What do you think about theworld?

(01:05:00):
What are your values?
Not your parents' values, notyour church's values.
What do you think?
How do you feel about this?
What are the terms you'd like tolive on?
What are the things that areimportant to you?
Uh who are the people you wouldlike to love?
And uh, you know, man, when youget a chance to do that, it just
it sets every cell in your bodyon fire.

(01:05:22):
It is one of those things whereyou think, I wish I had found
this sooner because now I'm nolonger jamming the square peg
into the round hole.
Now I no longer have to take thenonsensical and make it make
sense.
Now I don't have to spend therest of my life sitting around
judging people, but I get toaccept them for who they are,
the wild, wide diversity ofhumankind and thought and ideas,

(01:05:44):
and colors, and cultures, andcreeds, and sexuality.
And it's a potpourri of goodnessout here on the other side.
And that's what I'd like myparents to be able to see.
Is somebody who went out andsort of left the cocoon and sort
of sample the rest of the realworld and fell in love with it
and is very happy and centeredin his own life.

(01:06:04):
If they'd only see that guy, Ithink they would be a lot
happier in their own lives forsure.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:11):
If somebody wants to find you, what's the best way to
go about that?

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:15):
Well, if you ask my parents, look under a rock or uh
maybe inside a ritual sacrifice,you know, on Halloween or
something.
Uh but my work is easy to find.
I host a weekly podcast.
You can find it linked at thethinkingatheist.com, YouTube
videos, lectures, other stuff.
Or if you want to know moreabout me, my books, etc., my

(01:06:36):
personal website isSethandrews.com, either one of
those works.

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:43):
It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with
you today.
Thank you so much for taking thetime.
And uh hopefully we'll hear morefrom you in the future.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:54):
Well, to both of you, Alexis Nacy, I I'm just
honored that you would uh inviteme to be a part of it.
And to any of your listeners,just know that you know the
human journey is often messy,and that's okay.
And uh just give yourselfpermission to ask the questions,
to pursue an authentic life.
Don't let anybody else tell youwho you are and you are not

(01:07:16):
alone.
And I'm honored to have been apart of today, and I hope you're
safe and good for the holidays,my friend.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:22):
Likewise.
Thank you, Seth, for coming onthe show.