Dying Out Loud

Special guest Dave Warnock of “Dying out Loud” shares his story of de-conversion, estrangement and his fatal  ALS diagnosis. Dave shares with us the importance of living our best life even while estranged and living with a debilitating and fatal disease. 

You can learn more about Dave by clicking the link below. 

www.daveoutloud.com

Other resources
https://clergyproject.org
https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org


https://buymeacoffee.com/wtbbpod

Send us Fan Mail

Support the show

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
The following is a Kingfisher Media Podcast.
You are listening to When theBow Breaks with your host,
Alexis Arrolyn.

SPEAKER_03 (00:15):
This is Alexis Arrow Lynn and you are listening to
When the Bow Breaks podcast.
Today our guest is Dave Warnockfrom Dave Out Loud.
Dave, can you give us a littlebrief overview about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hi, Alexis.
Yes, um, I am an agnosticatheist, but uh for the better
part of my life I was anevangelical charismatic
Christian.
Um of that time, many of thoseyears, was involved in active
ministry, pastoring at variouschurches, um, evangelical

(00:51):
fundamentalist type churches,and um let that faith go about
10 years ago.
And in the interim, in the last10 years, I was just living my
normal life, just minding my ownbusiness.
I wasn't what you would consideran atheist activist.
I wasn't doing podcasts orspeaking at anything, I was just

(01:13):
selling insurance and enjoyinglife.
And then a little over a yearago, I was diagnosed with ALS,
which is Lugert's disease, andit's a fatal disease with no
cure, no treatment.
And so I kind of changed uhchanged what I was spending my
time with at that point.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32):
Uh-huh.
So I have a question.
I I a lot of my listeners, youknow, I'm sure have heard about
you, and some of them haven't.
Can you tell a little bit aboutwhat ALS is?

SPEAKER_01 (01:47):
Yes, it's a motor neuron disease.
Um, it affects it affects howthe nerves communicate with the
muscles in your body, and umyour muscles basically uh
deteriorate over time.
Sometimes it takes a while,sometimes it goes really fast.
Um the average lifespan theygive you from diagnosis is three

(02:09):
to five years.
But that varies greatly, andwhat that also means is that the
last year or two of those threeto five years can be pretty
dismal in terms of quality oflife.
You you you would be many peopleare reduced to uh living in a
wheelchair, laying in a bed, notable to clothe or feet or

(02:33):
themselves, get themselvesaround.
They need help with every singlething they do.
Um and so the quality of life,if if you have a life expectancy
that has any kind of quality toit, it could be one to two
years, three to four, two tothree.
It's it varies greatly.
And um, so the muscles basicallyquit working.
Mine began in my fingers andhands and arms, and that's

(02:55):
pretty much where it's stayed.
I've had it for a couple ofyears now.
So in ALS years, those are long.
Um mine is progressing uh slowerthan most.

SPEAKER_03 (03:07):
Okay.
So I have a couple questionsabout your illness.
Um I'm sure you have days whereyou feel off physically.
I mean, you're all over theplace online.
You've you've you've been aguest on several podcasts.
I mean, probably more thanseveral now by by this time.
Uh, but do you ever have dayswhen emotionally you just can't

(03:32):
do it?
Like, you know, how do youhandle those days where you're
just kind of, uh, I don't reallyfeel like I can do it today?

SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Well, yeah, that's a good question, Alexis.
And I have had several of thosedays.
Um a lot of times it's not asphysically uh challenging.
The day that I'm if I'm having abad day, it's more mental than
physical, emotional.
So there's actually been acouple of times where I've had
to cancel something that was uhbecause I didn't feel like I

(04:02):
could give it uh my best.
And I just I just don't want todo something that I'm just going
through the emotions on.
I mean, I've told my storyenough.
Now, when you said severalpodcasts, I think I've been on
like 40.

SPEAKER_02 (04:14):
Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
And and I've told you know the same thing over and
over and over again.
So I know I could plug and playand and get through it, but I
just don't want to do that.
If I'm not, if I'm not, it's notlike I need to be on, it's not a
performance, but if I'm notfeeling like I can genuinely um
interact with someone, I justfeel like it's better to

(04:36):
reschedule it.
And I've had to do that a coupleof times.
And it's actually it's only beenthe last couple of months um
that I've had to do that.
And I think it's related to theevents going on around us in the
world.
Um, it's just taking a toll onme.

SPEAKER_03 (04:51):
Right.
Do you ever get overwhelmed andanxious by the ticking of the
clock?

SPEAKER_01 (04:59):
Yeah.
Um when I first got thediagnosis, it was February 26th
of 2019.
And I was just, like I said,living a normal life.
And very quickly after that,within a couple of weeks, I had
made the decision to retire fromthe work I was doing.
I'd made the decision to moveout of my apartment, move in
with friends in case I neededhelp managing life quicker than

(05:23):
I thought I would.
And I was gonna travel and dothe things I wanted to do until
until this thing got me, andthen I would turn out the light.
And so my initial response wasan accelerated living mindset.
Uh, I didn't know if I had ayear or two or three or five.
I didn't know what that yearwould look like.
I didn't know if I'd be dead bythis time or in a wheelchair.

(05:46):
So I really had a lot of uh uhanxious, not anxious
anxiousness, but I was anxiousto get about living because I
didn't know how long I had.
Now as it's as it's dragged onfor a year now, and I've done
dying out loud for over a yearand been active in things like
this and in traveling andspeaking until COVID shut us

(06:09):
down.
Um I wasn't as anxious because Iwas really in enjoying and
energized.
I was enjoying what I was doing,and I was energized by the
connection with the people andthe responses I was getting from
people.
And but when COVID hit and wehad to cancel every I was
supposed to be in what is this,June 2nd?
Um, yeah, I was supposed to bein Europe this time.

(06:32):
Um and Amsterdam and England andMunich and France and all of the
fun places, right?
Well, yeah, and speaking atmeetings and meeting people that
had brought me in to speak andall that had to be shut down.
So yeah, now I'm feeling alittle bit of the closing up of
the of the calendar, if youwill.
And realizing that I'm feelinguh feeling like these are months

(06:57):
that I don't get back.
You know, it's it's not like Ican pause this and pick it up a
year from now and not miss abeat.
A year from now I may be morecompromised than I well, I'm
most likely going to be morecompromised than I am now.
So yeah, that's a challenge.
It's been a mental, it's been amental challenge for me for
sure.

SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
So I know this might seem like a funny question, but
if I were just to ask you andyou could just give me your
interpretation, what is themeaning of life?

SPEAKER_01 (07:29):
Well, philosophers have debated that since the dawn
of man, since you know, sinceNoah came off the boat, I guess.
Um that didn't happen, by theway.
Yes.
Um just for your listeners whodon't know me very well, they
go, wait, what?
He believes that shit?
Right.
Um, to me, I think, you know,what is the meaning of life?

(07:50):
I really do believe that is anindividual's choice to make.
Um, it's not upon us, me or youor anyone, to tell someone else
this is what you need to makelife look like.
This is what life needs to befor you.
I think we get to make our ownmeaning, and that's the beauty
of free thinking and exitingChristianity is you don't have a

(08:10):
deity or spiritual authoritiestelling you what your meaning of
life should look like, what yourlife should be about.
You get to decide what you wantthat to be.
And and for me, it is um the themagic of the moments.
And that sounds like a a songtitle or a cliche, but I I began
to live that way when I rebootedmy life after I left my marriage

(08:34):
a few years ago and and decidedI was gonna live the best life I
could live until I ran out oflife.
And um for me it was arealization that life is really
nothing more than a collectionof moments, that we don't
remember days, we remembermoments.
And that's really true about mylife as I look back on it.

(08:54):
There are moments that stand outbig and small.
They could be a moment uh on amountaintop in Italy, or they
can be a moment gathered arounda fire with drinks and friends
converse conversing and laughingand crying together.
For me, that is the essence oflife, that's the beauty of life.
And I've had people, you know,I've gotten messages from people
uh after a show or QA at a at ameeting.

(09:18):
I'm thinking of two differentinstances where they really were
uh, you know, nihilist, I guess,uh like saying, What's the point
of all this?
What we we live, we have someyears, then we die.
What's the point?
And for me, the point is whatyou make it, and for me, the
point is those years, thosemoments that you get to live,
and those the beauty of thosemoments and what you make of

(09:40):
them.

SPEAKER_03 (09:42):
So a little bit about, you know, you you told me
you used to be a uh used to be aChristian, used to be a pastor
for, you know, for decades.
Can you tell me just a littlebit about that and a little bit
about your uh your deconversion?

SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
Yeah, I was caught up in the Jesus movement back in
the 70s.
I'm an I'm an old fart, so I'vebeen around a while.
But back in the 70s, the Jesusmovement kind of followed on the
heels of the 60s and the hippiemovement.
And what we what we essentiallywere is hippies with salvation.
And it was all about um arelationship with Jesus.

(10:19):
It was all personal.
It wasn't about church orreligion.
In fact, you know, we we kind oflooked down our nose at our
organized religion in church,you know, it was all about this
relationship with this excitingitinerate preacher named Jesus
who came into our hearts throughthe Holy Spirit.
And we prayed in tongues and webelieved in miracles, and we

(10:39):
really believed that the Biblewas the inspired word of God.
And that was that encapsulatedmy life from the age of 18 to
the age of about 50, 55 or 54.
So the the better part of threedecades.
Um, you know, I married in thatfaith, I raised kids in that
faith.
I was uh a pastor many of thoseyears on staff at several

(11:03):
different churches in Arkansasand Tennessee.
And um I was very serious aboutit and very involved in every
aspect of it.
It wasn't a peripheral thing forme, it was the center of our
lives.
And um so me coming to the tothe end of that was a very
disorienting and traumatizingtime for me.

(11:24):
That was uh about 2010,somewhere in the middle of 2010,
when I came to the conclusionafter a year or year and a half
of analyzing my faith, I came tothe conclusion it wasn't true
and it wasn't real, and I let itall go.

SPEAKER_03 (11:40):
So your diagnosis came after the deconversion,
correct?

SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
Yes, a good many years after.
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
Okay.
So a question that I haveregarding that is how did you
manage grief of the diagnosiswhen you and your family have
conflicting beliefs?

SPEAKER_01 (12:03):
Well, I managed it on my own, pretty much.
Um, I I have a a really goodcommunity of friends in
Nashville, uh, where I callhome.
I'm in Charlotte, NorthCarolina, with my girlfriend now
and where I live here, but butmy community, my hometown, where
I was last year when thisdiagnosis came was uh Nashville.

(12:23):
And I have a large group ofpeople there that I'm very close
with.
Most of us are ex-Christianatheists or agnostics.
And um they really ralliedaround me.
They, you know, uh the idea thatfamily is everything, the idea
that blood is thicker thanwater, I think those ideas need
to be challenged.

(12:45):
There's there's nowhere thatthat's written in stone that
that has to be the case.
Oftentimes it can be, butoftentimes it's not.
And I think we try to maintainthat sense of loyalty or sense
of connection to our owndetriment many times.
And um and so we have to decidewhat kind of quality of life
we're gonna live and what kindof person we're gonna be.

(13:08):
Um, when I exited Christianity,a lot of my friends left me and
some of my family removedthemselves from me and became
more distant, some cut me offcompletely.
But it it affected relationshipsbecause we didn't connect on a
on a really important level.
And if if you're really seriousabout your Christianity, you're
gonna have a hard time having agood, solid, close relationship

(13:31):
with an avowed atheist.
So I understand the disconnect,um, but it it it didn't change
how I wanted to go about mylife.
I wanted to live my life in anhonest and authentic way.
So the grief of the diagnosiswas more, I really don't
remember feeling a lot of grief,actually, not a lot of sadness.

(13:53):
It was more like a anacceptance, uh a realization
that my life is now changing,and I I gotta decide what I want
that to look like.
And so I just kind of buckled upand said, okay, here we go.
And told family and friends, andand you know, that some
responded in one way and someresponded in another, but it was

(14:15):
pretty much on me to make thebest of that.

SPEAKER_03 (14:19):
I guess a question I would really like to ask is, you
know, you deconverted and yousaid people treated you
differently.
How were you treated by likeyour close friends and family
after this happened?

SPEAKER_01 (14:34):
It varied.
Um, it varied greatly.
I have several what I callholdover friends that used to be
in church with me.
And some of them, I was theirpastor uh for for some years.
And some of them were able tonavigate my changes with me.
Now they may still hold theirfaith, or they may, some do and

(14:57):
some don't.
Some have kind of drifted fromtheirs as well, but some would
maintain their identity as aChristian, just like I did.
But they're able to embrace whoI am as a person and overlook
our different opinions aboutGod.
Um, others weren't able to dothat, so they've had to just
kind of drift away.

(15:18):
Others were more adamant in Ican't be your friend anymore,
that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
I never, not once have I ever told anyone I can't
associate with you because ofthis or that.
I've maintained the position andI still do, that if you can
accept me for who I am and allowme to be myself around you, then
we can do life together.
But if you can't, that's not myproblem, it's yours.

(15:46):
And I'm not gonna let you makeit my problem.

SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (15:48):
And that and that includes my daughters, who for a
short time prior to mydeconversion, even and during my
earliest years, were pretty muchshunning me almost completely.
Um, as in, you know, if I sawone of them or their husbands in
a public place, they would lookthe other way and walk away.
You know, that level of shunningit lessened over time where they

(16:13):
would, you know, if I saw themat a Starbucks or something,
they would greet me and and makenice, but we wouldn't have any
point of connection, no realrelationship.

SPEAKER_03 (16:23):
So as an estranged person myself, I can probably
guess a few reason reasons whythey would, you know, project
that kind of attitude towardsyou.
Why do you think that theyturned their backs on you in
public?
Were they, do you think thatthey are embarrassed, or is that
something that they are doingbecause they're holding fast to
what they believe?

SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
Yeah, it's a learned behavior.
I mean, shunning is an attitude,it's an action that has to be
taught.
It's not a natural inclinationfrom anyone, I believe.
I believe there are spiritualleaders who put that in you.
And um, that's that was the casein our family.
The shunning actually happened.
I was on staff at a churchoutside Nashville, Tennessee,

(17:07):
and I was an associate pastorthere, and I was assigned to one
of their satellitecongregations, which is what
megachurches do now.
And so I was doing really wellwith that congregation.
It grew from 50 people to 250people in a year, and I was a
very successful, by any measure,pastor.
People love me, all thosethings.

(17:30):
And the senior pastor was a verynarcissistic, controlling,
manipulative person who began torun his church more and more
like a cult as time went on.
We'd been there for years, butit became more and more cultish.
And he and I were button headsbecause I didn't suck up to our
narcissistic leaders have to besucked up to.

SPEAKER_03 (17:48):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
Trump, Trump.

SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Um, and and so I didn't do that very well.
And so he and I butted heads,and then they they let me go.
I was fired from that job.
And my daughters were raised andmarried, or just you know, are
raised and married, but eventhat, you know, 10 years ago
they were they've been married along time.
And their husbands were in anintern program being groomed to

(18:13):
be pastors, and so they werevery much involved in the inner
circle, and the pastor wasalways stroking them, and they
were stroking the pastor, andall those things were going on.
And so when I when I got on theouts with the pastor, he began
to really turn them against me,and he would have meet meetings
and and lambast me publicly andtell the girls what a bad person

(18:36):
I was and how they needed toshun me.
And so they were taught that wasingrained in the culture of that
church for someone, if ifsomeone was in a in opposition
to the spiritual authority, theywere in opposition to God.

SPEAKER_03 (18:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
And so my daughters were put in the position of
basically having to choosebetween God and their dad.
And this was while I was still abeliever, mind you.
I was still married very muchfollowing the Bible and teaching
and preaching the word and doingall the Christian things that
I'd always done.
And they began to shun me and mywife at that point.
Um we'd gone we'd gone to adifferent church and was getting

(19:13):
involved in a different churchfor another year or so before
I'd left faith altogether.
But even during that time, wewere being shunned.
And and then when I told mygirls that I was no longer a
Christian, they their theirattitude shifted from shunning
to more of a position of webelieve you're in rebellion

(19:33):
against God, and until yourepent and return to God, we
can't, in good faith, have arelationship with you because
that's going to enable your sin.
It's going to send you themessage that we're okay with
your atheism.

SPEAKER_03 (19:48):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
So that's the gist of their position now.
That's been that that way forthe last seven or eight years.
So it's not a classic shunning,one of my daughters I can call
and talk.
To on the phone.
The other one doesn't connectwith me at all.
I have seen them from time totime randomly over the last
seven or eight years, but it'salways accidentally, so to

(20:13):
speak.
I'm not welcome in their home.
They were never in my home whenI was married.
The grandkids were never in ourhome.
I've got six grandkids betweenmy two daughters.
My son was away at college whenthis all happened at the church.
So he didn't adopt thatposition.
He was always fine with me.

(20:33):
He and I've maintained arelationship all through my
deconstruction process.
And now he and his wife, I don'tknow what they would identify
as, but I know that they're notinvolved in church and and I
don't think that they believemuch of the same things they
used to, although they met at aChristian college, an
evangelical Christian college.
And and but they live in NewYork City and and so they're

(20:58):
quite liberal and quite woke.

SPEAKER_03 (21:01):
Yeah.
I have a a niece out in in NewYork City as well.
She's just living with herpartner, and I have seen her
grow so much.
Yeah.
You know, yeah, and she'sbecoming her own person.
She's kind of uh, you know,rolling with the punches, I
guess you would say, you know,in life, and she's already way

(21:22):
ahead more than I was at thatage, and I'm just I'm really
proud of her.
So anyway, moving on, I don'twant to talk too much about you
know myself, but uh I I hadanother question, uh dealing
with estrangement.
Like, of course there's familyestrangement, but when you leave
a religious community, youbasically uh I mean that's

(21:48):
another thing, that's anotherform of estrangement, I guess.
Because like you said, somepeople just basically shunned
you and won't talk to you, andthen other people seem like they
just love you anyway and theydon't care about shunning or
anything like that.
They don't see that that's youknow, productive or practical.
What was it like for you?

(22:09):
I mean, did you feel like youlost your community?

SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Oh, very much so.
Yeah.
I was very involved with even asa pastor, when I was in
ministry, I was a really apeople person.
I enjoyed connecting withpeople.
I'd go to their homes and youknow, I wasn't uh this uh out of
touch kind of up on the pulpitkind of guy that people couldn't
relate to.
So uh I uh I yeah, I lost thatcommunity immediately and didn't

(22:36):
have a replacement in place andI didn't know where to find one.
And I began to search theinternet and found the clergy
project at first, and I I beganto meet people in the Middle
Tennessee area that that I metthrough the clergy project and
then through other online forumsthat I would I would realize,
oh, you live over there.

(22:57):
Well, let's get together forcoffee, let's have a drink,
right?
And so I've started buildingcommunity that way, and it and
it it happened person by person,and some of my best friends to
this day, people that have toldme they want to be there on the
day that I die, that kind offriend.

SPEAKER_03 (23:13):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (23:16):
I just get emotional when I think about that.
Um yeah, yeah, they they're thethe quality of people in my life
now, and most of them are uhex-ministers that I met through
the clergy project.
I'm thinking of one, two, three,four, four guys in in in
particular.

SPEAKER_03 (23:33):
So they get it.

SPEAKER_01 (23:35):
They get it, they totally get it.
And it and it makes it, it'sit's a it's a kind of identity
that you can't you can'treplace.
Uh, for someone to to know thoselevels of of uh change that we
go through.
People that have never beenthere, it's a totally different
world.
I mean, my girlfriend Bevin,she's she doesn't adhere to

(23:58):
Christianity, but she she neverwas deeply ingrained in an
evangelical cult, if you will.
You know, her brushes withChristianity were very uh light,
maybe in college and then earlyadulthood with her kids and you
know, wanting her kids toexperience some church life and
maybe an episcopal church orsomething, you know, what I

(24:18):
would call Christianity light.
She never got indoctrinated.
So she has seen this and she'slearned of it over the last
year, meeting a lot of myfriends.
But at first she was like, wow,I had no idea.
I had no idea there was thiskind of trauma associated with
letting go of something likethat.

SPEAKER_03 (24:36):
Yep, yep.
No, I experienced that too whenI left.
I had no idea how much I hadbeen damaged in that kind of
environment.
I had no idea, and it just cametumbling down on me one day.
And it just it really hit me.
Did you suffer like an identitycrisis after that?

(24:57):
I mean, is it is it true?
Once a preacher, always apreacher, kind of thing, you
know?

SPEAKER_01 (25:03):
Well, for several years, I was I was working in
the insurance business and I wasjust minding my business and
selling insurance and making agood living.
My I was still married at thetime.
My wife remained a Christian,and she but she watched me go
through the process.
She understood that it wasn'tsomething I just chose to do one

(25:23):
day.
It was something that basicallyhappened to me, for lack of a
better term.

SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
It wasn't a decision, it was a conclusion.
And so I was very much out ofthe limelight.
I uh I didn't get on theex-Christian atheist speaker
circuit like you know, somepeople I've met.
I didn't go out looking for aplatform.
I was content just to be quietand mind my own business, but I
didn't have the community, Ididn't have an outlet.

(25:50):
So there were several really sadyears for me.
I didn't have a relationshipwith my daughters and wasn't
seeing my grandkids.
And I was looking in my mid-50sat what's the balance of my life
gonna look like here?
I'm gonna work another 10 yearsor so and then retire and then
do what?
Right.
Um, you know, uh uh I I did notconnect with my wife anymore.

(26:13):
It wasn't like we were enemiesor hateful or fighting, it just
was no point, no point ofconnection and no identification
with each other's world.
She would go and do her churchstuff, and I would stay home and
and we had some more we had someuh friends that that were common
and we would do some things withthem, but my life felt very

(26:34):
empty.
And there were times when likeat Thanksgiving or Christmas or
something, we'd have some otherof her family or other people
over and they would have to do aprayer, and I would feel
awkward, and and I it got towhere I didn't feel like I could
be myself in my own home.

SPEAKER_03 (26:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (26:50):
And so I I just had to leave.
I had to I had to reboot my lifeat that point, and when I did
that, it was a process of reallyworking through emotionally and
mentally, starting over my lifeand letting go of some hopes.
I had to let go of the in termsof estrangement, I had to let go

(27:13):
of this thing that had beencaptivating me of trying to get
my daughters back, trying to wintheir favor again and trying to
improve things.
I fought for several yearstoward that, and it was futile
and it was very discouraging,and it led me into some
depression.
And I I just thought I've got totake the pen back and write my

(27:34):
own story.
I'm letting this estrangementwrite my story for me, and I
didn't like the way the storywas going, and and and that's
why I made some changes.

SPEAKER_03 (27:45):
Okay.
So I guess while we're kind ofon topic, um, I guess a question
that would maybe put things inbetter perspective for some of
our listeners is how did leavingthe church affect your mental
health?
Because I mean, you said youexperienced depression.
I mean, you you tried to stayconnected with your family.
Um, whenever things didn't gothe way that you'd hoped, how

(28:08):
did that affect you?

SPEAKER_01 (28:11):
Yeah, it was a disappointment.
I wasn't as mad about it.
I was there was some anger andfeeling like I'd been duped and
tricked into something thatwasn't true, although I had no
one to hold accountable exceptmyself.
No one, you know, did it to me.

SPEAKER_02 (28:26):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (28:26):
But I I did feel more sadness than anger alone,
and I felt disoriented.
Um, so there were a few yearsthere.
Depression is maybe too strong aword, a blanket of sadness that
uh kind of hung over me.
I wasn't, you know, I wasfunctional, I was living life, I
hang out with neighbors and Iwould socialize with people on a

(28:47):
real surface level.
Um, but I lacked, uh I missedthe depth of relationship that I
had found in the church around acommon theme.

SPEAKER_02 (28:57):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
And so finding the ex-Christian atheist community
and building it, so to speak,even has been a very rewarding
and encouraging time for me.
And that that's mostly been inthe last five years or so, 2015
forward, really more so in thelast three years, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 (29:18):
Uh, the next question I have is, you know,
has anything from your formerbelief or your former religion
has any of that stuck with you?
I mean, did it teach youanything?

SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
Honestly, I I think any values from my former faith
that I carry now are basic humanvalues.
I I've said many times that Ifeel like I'm much more moral as
an atheist than I was as aChristian.
And to give that context, whatthat means to me is I don't act
any differently.

(29:51):
I'm not any more kind, I'm notkinder or more generous or more
loving, but I no longer look atpeople through the same lens.
I don't look at people throughthe lens of are you saved or
lost?
Are you right or wrong?
Are you black or white?
Are you in or out of the club?
Uh I don't need to try to changeyou.

(30:12):
I don't need to change how youthink or how you believe.
I'm okay with you being you, itdoesn't matter to me.
Whereas before, I wouldn't havetreated the person with disdain
or disgust or been mean to them,but I would have looked at them
as somehow flawed, broken,because you don't share my

(30:32):
belief about a deity.

SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
Right.
When you left the church, werethere any hopes that you lost?

SPEAKER_01 (30:42):
Hmm.
Um I I wasn't ever a big, oh mygod, I can't wait to get to
heaven guy.
And long before I let go offaith altogether, I had pretty
much let go of the idea of hell.
I found it to be repugnant anddisgusting, the idea that a God
that we would serve would createa place called hell that a

(31:03):
majority of the people would endup in.
Um so I think I held the idea ofheaven pretty loosely because if
you really analyze it from thebiblical viewpoint, the the idea
of heaven is very confusing.
Is it New Jerusalem?
Is it a new heaven on a newearth?
Is it paradise?
Is it in the clouds?
Who's there?
How do you get there?
What are you gonna do whenyou're there?

(31:23):
Are you gonna play golf?
Are you gonna sing Hosannaforever?
It's so confusing, and there'sso many different conflicting
ideas.
Right.
So I was never all about heaven,I was more about Jesus wants to
make this life and and your lifeprosperous and good and healthy,
and he wants to help you do lifebetter, help you in your

(31:45):
relationships, help you withyour kids, help you in your job.
So that was my focus as a pastorand as a Christian.
So the hopes that I had werewere again, they've translated
it into a secular life becausethey're still the same.
Right.
I want to I want to help peopleany way I can to enjoy the life

(32:07):
that we're living and themoments that we have.
And that's really what the dyingout loud message is.
It's really about living outloud, and it's what I talk
about, and it's the messages Iget from people have to do with
how that's resonated with themin helping them add to the
quality of the life that we knowwe have.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
If you are experiencing estrangement from a
family member and would like tobe a guest, please email us at
wtbb podcast at gmail.com.
Your privacy is important to us.
Guests have the option to remainanonymous.

SPEAKER_03 (32:44):
So when you left the church, what hopes did you gain
from that?

SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Um, I think hopes, I don't know that I would classify
this as hopes, but I when I letgo of Christianity and the idea
of a deity and a God that's outthere doing something for us or
that we're accountable to, Ithink the beauty of letting go
of that is just coming to therealization that this is what we

(33:13):
are, this is who we are, this iswhat we have, this is the one
life we have, we're responsiblefor ourselves.
And that's good when when you dowell, and it's bad when you do
bad.
But you can't blame anybody foryour mistakes.
And you but on the flip side ofthat, when you do well, you get
to give credit to yourself.
I did well, I made a gooddecision, I did a good thing.

(33:34):
That was on me.
So that's a a win, in myopinion.
That's a gain when you when youknow that when you learn that
you're the one that's in chargeof your own life and you get to
make it what you want it to be.
That's a beautiful realizationand it's liberating.

SPEAKER_03 (33:54):
So, what would you say to someone who's recently
left the church or left, youknow, that kind of group and
finds themselves in a situationsimilar to yours?

SPEAKER_01 (34:05):
Well, the first thing I would say to, and I say
this to many of them because Ihear from a lot of them, um, is
be patient with yourself.
Um, it's it's a process.
You don't wake up one day andall better.
Uh, there's a lot of lossassociated with leaving your
faith, especially if yourfamily's all in it and you're
losing family members, andthere's you have to figure out

(34:28):
how to who you who you can beout to and how you come out and
when you come out, and andbroken relationships and
judgment from people andaccusations from people.
There's a lot to deal with.
So, my first thing is be patientwith yourself.
It will get better.
The the further you get removedfrom this, the better you're

(34:49):
gonna feel about yourself, themore clearer you're gonna see
things more clearly.
You're gonna you're gonna nothave as much emotion tied up
into it as as you do right on.
I mean, 10 years out from itnow, there's no emotion uh
attached to it with me.
If I'm talking to someone abouta former faith, I heard from a

(35:11):
former church member just theother day, a few weeks ago, that
had heard me on a show andreached out and said, Oh my God,
is that D Dave Warnock that Ithat was my pastor, you know,
and and she had let go of faithyears ago, and we were talking
about the the nonsense that wentdown that last year, and there
was no emotion attached to me.

(35:32):
I was just like, it was like Iwas watching a crazy movie that
I was the star of.
Yeah.
And and so that's what I tellpeople.
It's gonna get better.
You're you're gonna find peoplelike-minded.
One of my great joys now isconnecting people.
I just fucking love that.
And so I'll hear from peoplethat'll reach out and I'll say,

(35:56):
Where are you?
and I'll I'll find out where youare.
And then I say, Well, I I justspoke to a so-and-so that lives
in your same area.
Let me connect you two, andthey'll have coffee and they'll
get back to me.
And I just, and they, you know,they lived 20 minutes apart from
each other and didn't know it.
And they were both looking, theywere both looking for someone
that they could hang out with.

(36:16):
And, you know, a small town EastTexas, I'm thinking of one
example, these two women thatlived in East Texas and didn't
have an atheist ex-Christiancommunity there, and and each of
them independently had uhreached out to me and I said, I
know where you are, because mybrother pastors a church in East
Texas.
So I know that area really well.
And I said, Well, I know someonejust down the road from you, you

(36:38):
guys should have coffee.
And they did, and it was justlovely.
And so I just love connectingpeople.
I think that's one of the bestthings that we can do for each
other.

SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
So you said that now being 10 years out of this
religion, you said you didn'treally have, you know, the
emotional part kind of isn'treally there anymore.
But do you have any uhpost-evangelism guilt?
I mean, you were a pastor for along time, preaching these
things that you now no longerbelieve.

(37:09):
Do you have any, you know, guiltor you know, what are your
feelings about that?
Do you have any regrets that youabout the way that you raised
your children?

SPEAKER_01 (37:17):
No, I don't.
And and um I I I came upon aMaya Angelou quote last year,
and I I refer to this a lot toexplain your question or to
explain my answer to yourquestion.
And her her uh her quote is thisit simply says, do the best you
can do until you know better.
And then when you know better,do better.

(37:40):
And I find that to be a very,very liberating way to live.
And it it it removes from me theneed to feel regret.
I think regret is a very costlyemotion.
Um, I might wince when I thinkback, you know, I did, I said
this and did that, but I knew, Iknow now that what I felt then
was that I was doing the best Icould.

(38:01):
I was doing what I genuinelythought was best.
Same with raising my daughtersin that faith.
I I was doing and and uh livingit in the best way that I could
and raising them the best waythat I could.
Now I see differently.
I feel like, oh, I've had somelight shined on an area and I
think I see better and I'm gonnado better.
So I don't look back and go, ohmy God, what what was wrong with

(38:24):
me?
I don't rack myself with guiltand regret because I know that I
was doing the best I could.
And I and that's the way I lookat them.
In terms of estrangement, Idon't look at my daughters and
say, My God, how can they dothis?
And you know, other people saythat to me and I say, No, no,
no, don't do that.
They're doing the best they can.
Right.
They're doing, they're livingtheir faith in the best way they

(38:47):
know how, and they're being verygenuine with it.
Right.
And I don't fault that a bit.
I really don't.

SPEAKER_03 (38:52):
Okay.
So so when I became estrangedfrom my family, I was also kind
of struggling with my faith atthe same time.
And at the time, you know, I hada lot of anger and stuff towards
my parents for how they raisedme.
But then I had to remember I wasa parent and I had been raising
my children the same way.
And so it was easier for me tolet go of any kind of

(39:15):
accusations I had on thembecause yeah, they they thought
that they were doing the rightthing.
They still think that they'redoing the right thing.
And even though that's hard tohear, it's almost easier because
I know that they still have apotential for growth and they
still have a potential to cometo these conclusions on their
own.
And uh so yeah, it helps me feelbetter.

(39:39):
So in terms of estrangement, Ihave a I have a couple
questions.
I I don't know, are your parentsstill living or have they since
passed?

SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
I have um two dead dads.
I have a birth father and astepdad who raised me.
My parents split up split upwhen I was about eight.
And uh my birth father died lastyear.
I was not in a relationship withhim for years.
He left and really didn't showback up at all.
My stepdad died a few years ago,about four years ago, uh, right

(40:12):
about the time uh, well, I wasalready deconverted, but um I
was still married when he died.
And so it was shortly after uhthat that I left the marriage.
So I've got a mom, my mom isstill alive and she's very much
a Jesus uh person.
She loves Jesus, loves church.
Very concerned for me and mysoul.
And she doesn't berate me aboutit and she doesn't harp on it,

(40:36):
but you know, and not so much inthe last year.
Uh maybe a couple years ago, shewould make a statement of
wanting me to watch a certainGod's Not Dead movie, or when
I'd see her, you know, I'm I'mI'm really praying for you.
I remember one instance whereshe said, I'm really praying for
you, Dave.
And I and I said, Huh, that'sokay, mom.
I'm doing really well.
I'm really happy.

(40:56):
Well, you you're not doing wellif you're not in the kingdom.
And that was about as that wasabout as hard as she pushed.
And and then I just said, Well,mom, I'm really doing okay.
And I left it at that.
Right.
So it's not an antagonisticrelationship.

SPEAKER_03 (41:11):
She can either accept it or not.

unknown (41:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (41:14):
It's just, I feel I, yeah, and I feel bad for her
that she's letting herself beall torn up about something
that's not even real.
I mean, I I've I I've said, Mom,I'm not going to hell.
I'm okay.
And and that's the thing.
I I just, you know, the thereality, if you really analyze
why someone like my mom would beunhappy with my atheism, it has

(41:37):
to boil down because she thinksthat I'm that my eternal soul is
in danger.
And and so there's there's wherethe idea of hell is such a
repugnant notion.
If if people let go of eternaldamnation or eternal life, if if
we just looked at life throughthe lens of knowing that, okay,
we we are in life together, whywould it matter what I believed

(42:02):
or didn't?
She shouldn't be concerned atall.
If I'm happy and healthy andtreating people well and not
doing bad things, just livinglife and what difference does it
make to someone whether Ibelieve or not?

SPEAKER_03 (42:16):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 (42:18):
It has to it has to be because they want me to go to
heaven and don't want me to goto hell.
So uh if you take thoseequations out of it, we'd all
get along better, I think.

SPEAKER_03 (42:30):
So so do you still currently you you still have a
relationship with your mom then?
Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (42:37):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (42:38):
That's good.
That's good that you can still,you know, have a relationship
despite your different beliefs.

SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
I mean, you know, I've my older brother is an
evangelical pastor in EastTexas, my younger brother lives
in Texas, my sister lives inTexas, they're all conservative
evangelicals.
Um so in this day and age, thatmeans that there's a great gulf
there.
There's not much we can talkabout.
I mean, they just they just seethe world 180 degrees

(43:08):
differently than I do.
And and you know, we are livingin the most polarizing times
I've ever seen in my life.
Um literally, I mean, you youeither hate Trump or you love
it.
I mean, there's hardly anymiddle ground.

SPEAKER_03 (43:23):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (43:23):
And and and so, yeah, it causes a lot of
division in families.
It causes uh more of a of adivide than there ever used to
be, not just with religion, butwith with a worldview that's be
becoming increasingly divided.

SPEAKER_03 (43:39):
So you mentioned you have children, you have a son
and and two daughters.
You you mentioned that you havedo you still have communication
with your son?
Is your son still in your life?

SPEAKER_01 (43:50):
Yes, very much so.
He and I are good, good, good,good.
We've never there never was, Imean, it was a difficult time
when I got when I left themarriage and got divorced.
He was a little bit upset at meat that point.
But um, he's come to understandmy deconversion.
He's come to uh truly uhunderstand it, embrace it, he
and his wife both.

(44:10):
Um so yeah, we've we've had agood relationship all through
the time.

SPEAKER_03 (44:14):
So it sounds like he's still he's still a
believer, I guess, if you callit.

SPEAKER_01 (44:19):
No, I'm not well they they pretty much live as a
non-believer.
I don't know if I think the lasttime we really had a
conversation about it, theyidentified more as we think
maybe there's something outthere of some sort, but
definitely not a biblicalChristian.
No, definitely not.

SPEAKER_03 (44:38):
And your daughters, you mentioned you talk to one of
your daughters on the phone, butthe other one isn't in
communication with you.

SPEAKER_01 (44:44):
Well, uh, they've um handle it differently.
They and they each have topeople have to do what's what's
best for them.
I think some people estrangethemselves from family members
from a defense mechanism.
It's just an easier way to dealwith it.
And um, I think that's my middledaughter, I think that's her MO

(45:05):
is just to avoid it, is justeasier for her.
Uh, my older daughter is is moreuh able to engage with me and
not and not feel traumatized orchallenged or anything.
Not that I would I don't getinto conversations with them
about it.
I just want to, you know, becordial and be in their lives.
And they have to do they have todo that in whatever way that

(45:27):
they can.
And I don't fault them for it.
I understand it, and it's justit's just sad to me.
But I've accepted it for what itis, and I've been able to move
on with my life.
I um my middle daughter moved toMinnesota last year from Middle
Tennessee.
We were living in the same town,um, and I wasn't seeing them,

(45:48):
but when they were moving, andthis was after my ALS diagnosis,
they agreed to see me for coffeeone day um before they moved.
This was last summer.
And so I remember feelingnothing about that.
I remember feeling before themeeting, not being anxious.
I wasn't worked up, I wasn'tputting a bunch of, oh my god,

(46:10):
this is amazing.
I I can't I can't wait to seewhat happens after this.
It wasn't anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (46:16):
It was just kind of it is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_01 (46:18):
Exactly.
I was able to enjoy conversingwith them.
We talked about our she'sactually dealt with cancer for
the last four years and has beensome in some pretty bad shape.
She's doing well now.
But anyway.

SPEAKER_03 (46:31):
Remission.

SPEAKER_01 (46:31):
Remission, thank you.
I just went blank for a minute.
Um, so we were able to talkabout our different ailments and
uh, you know, that kind ofthing.
It was and and they're they'removing to Minnesota because her
husband's in med school at theMayo Clinic.
So we were talking about a lotof medical stuff and you know
how the kids do and that sort ofstuff.
But it was very light, it wasvery easy.

(46:52):
I didn't feel anxious about it,and then when they left, I went
home and that was it.
I didn't think, well, this isgonna well, now what's gonna
happen?
I didn't think anything.
And it took me a lot of workmentally and emotionally to get
to that place where I was ableto just disconnect, not attach
myself to any kind ofexpectations, right, and just

(47:14):
allow it to be whatever it was.
And it felt really good.

SPEAKER_03 (47:18):
So was that the last time you heard from her?

SPEAKER_01 (47:21):
Uh yes.
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 (47:23):
If you knew that she was listening right now, do you
have anything you'd like to sayto her?

SPEAKER_01 (47:30):
Well, I always do these with that in mind because
when you put this out there, Idon't know, you don't know who's
gonna listen.
Right.
And I always I'm always verycareful to try not to say
anything that would hurt them oroffend them or to make it feel
like I'm casting any kind ofstones because I've made my
share of mistakes and I've Iwasn't I I was as good a dad as

(47:51):
I could be.
I was trying as hard as I could,but I wasn't a perfect dad.
And you know, I would say tothem, you know that, and I've
always owned that, and I'vealways done the best I could,
and when I when I messed up, Iowned it.
And I I've I still do that now.
Um and so I'm always talkingabout these issues with that in

(48:11):
mind that if they do hear it,they're not gonna hear me coming
across as an angry dad or anangry atheist who's who's
condemning their behavior.
I totally understand it, butwhat I would say to you girls is
it doesn't have to be this way.
We can get along, we candisagree, we can share some
aspects of life, even though wemay disagree on some fundamental

(48:35):
core issues.
We can still be good people toone another, we can still treat
each other with kindness andrespect.
And I'm not gonna get any demonson your kids.
So if if there's that thinking,I don't know, but there there
are no evil spirits lurkingaround me that are gonna jump on
your kids if they're around me.

SPEAKER_03 (48:55):
Right.
I guess in in terms of movingon, you know, you said that life
is is more, it's not really acollection of days, it's a
collection of moments, and thosemoments make us who we are.
How is your life now?
Like you you talked a little bitabout how you know you kind of
had to rebuild your community.

(49:16):
Who is your support system inyour life right now?

SPEAKER_01 (49:19):
Well, my girlfriend Bevan is primarily that person.
She's my person, and um my mycommunity in Nashville has has
still is is my support group.
That's that's my people, that'smy community.
That's I mean, that's just myfamily.
That's that's who you know, youget to redefine your family.

(49:40):
Like I said earlier, we don'thave to live by some antiquated
notion that doesn't work for us.

SPEAKER_03 (49:45):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (49:46):
Um, especially if if had people in your life is
people in your life are causingstress and anxiety, if they're
toxic, you have every right tocut them out of your life.
Um and and and so there's youshould feel no guilt for for
that.

SPEAKER_03 (50:03):
A question back from you know, receiving your
diagnosis, did did anyone whohad previously been in no
contact with you because of yourdeconversion, did anybody kind
of pop back up again after youwere diagnosed?
Did anybody come back and say,Oh, you're sick, so now I'm
here?
Or, you know, did that changeany of your relationships, your

(50:24):
diagnosis?

SPEAKER_01 (50:26):
No, I can't say it did.
I mean, I was pretty much inrelationship with whoever would
accept me as an atheist.
I was always open to that.
And so when now I did see adifference in how people
responded to my diagnosis in inthat the atheist community, the
secular people who view this onelife as it, they were much more

(50:51):
uh present, much more available,much more um running toward me
rather than keeping theirdistance from me.
I think the Christians, theChristians don't quite know what
to do with it, I think, uh,because they don't know how to
factor God into it.
With the kind of Christianitythat I was in, you had to factor
God into everything.
Where's God in this?

(51:11):
What's God saying?
What's God doing?

SPEAKER_02 (51:13):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (51:14):
And with something like this, an atheist who gets a
terminal disease who, if hedoesn't repent, is probably
gonna go to hell, but he's myfriend, so I don't know what to
say, I don't know what to do,he's my brother.
How do I treat this?
How do I act react to this?
I think there's so muchconfusion around that, it's just
easier to stay away.

SPEAKER_03 (51:33):
Right.
Do you have any resources torecommend to someone who's left
the faith?

SPEAKER_01 (51:41):
Recovering from religion.
Okay.
Very, very good organization.
My good friend Daryl Ray foundedthat, and I'm connected with
them.
I refer people to them.
They do incredible work allaround the world.
They have online chats.
You can get on and chat withsomeone, you can talk on the
phone with they have uh trainedagents or counselors, if you

(52:03):
will, not not likepsychologists, but trained in
terms of how to help people whoare coming out of everything
from you know how to findcommunity, how to deal with
family members, how to come out,when to come out, all those
things.

SPEAKER_03 (52:19):
And you mentioned the clergy project also.

SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (52:24):
I've heard about that.
Can you tell a little bit aboutwhat that is?

SPEAKER_01 (52:28):
Yes, it's an online forum for clergy who no longer
believe in a deity.
That's the broad definition.
And it doesn't, it can includeformer clergy like myself or or
people who are still inministry.
I know of several friends ofmine who lost their faith before

(52:50):
they were able to exit theministry, which is a very
difficult place.
So it's an online forum.
You have to qualify formembership.
There's a pretty strenuous uhchecklist.
You have to go through aninterview.
It's a very private uh endeavorbecause some people's some
people would be exposed if ifyou know we have to protect the

(53:11):
identity of some people.

SPEAKER_03 (53:12):
Right.
Another question is, you know,what is with ALS, I mean, uh
like I said before, the theclock is constantly ticking.
And, you know, with this wholeCOVID thing, you feel like
you've been robbed, you know,from a little bit of you know
things that you'd like to do.
But what is the legacy that youhope to leave for your children

(53:34):
and grandchildren and anychildren thereafter or for
anyone listening?

SPEAKER_01 (53:39):
Yeah, I don't want to even um delineate my children
and grandchildren again.
I think that falls it falls, itkeeps us impressed in that
family mindset, which I don'tfind helpful.
I would rather just say foranyone that knew me, anyone that
that I connected with at anypoint in life.

(54:02):
My my legacy is a lot of whatI'm doing now is is the dying
out loud thing is is what I'mreally happy to leave behind
because um I I've found that itit has been such a good resource
for so many people, and I'veI've heard from so many people
that have felt inspired by it.
And so that's been a verygratifying surprise for me in

(54:24):
this last year.

SPEAKER_03 (54:26):
You know, when you were talking about, you know,
all the things that, you know,kind of make you happy about
this, you know, I I had aquestion, you know, what are
some of the things that thatbring you that bring joy to your
life?

SPEAKER_01 (54:40):
Hmm.
Yeah, those are um varied.
Uh there's a a wide variety ofthings that bring joy to my
life.
And I've had to shift that, youknow.
I sometimes I drive by a golf, Iused to play golf, and I taught
my son to play it.
We played a lot of golftogether, and I've enjoyed golf
for years with friends, and I'llnever hit another golf ball.

(55:01):
Uh I just can't, I can't.
My my my arms won't won't gripthe club.
I can't do it.
And so I'll drive by a golf, agolf course this time of year,
and I'll see the beautiful golfcourse, and and I'll just get
this wistful longing for uh thatkind of moment.
If you've never played golf,it's hard to understand, but but
a golfer will relate to thiswhen you make contact and you

(55:24):
hit that perfect shot and it andit just it's just this magical
moment, and um that's gone.
I'll never I had a guitar, anice Martin D18, and I used to
write and play songs, and andand I I will never do that
again.
So letting go of certain thingshave have caused me to move,
remove those pleasures from mylife.

(55:45):
But the other pleasures, I'm anavid cigar smoker, so sitting
down with with a cigar and a anda glass of bourbon and just
listening to music or having aconversation with someone, as
simple as that sounds, to me isone of the beautiful moments of
of what I have left in my life.
And you know, my girlfriend willget on me for smoking, and other

(56:07):
people say you shouldn't smoke.
And I'm thinking, at some point,if I quit doing everything, I've
got life, but not I'm notliving.

SPEAKER_02 (56:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (56:15):
And and and so I want to maintain some kind of a
balance between a living a lifeand staying alive.
Yeah.
And so there's a big differencein those two things.

SPEAKER_03 (56:25):
So how, yeah, how does one live their best life?
Like we know I we've heard alittle bit how Dave lives his
life, you know, dying out loud,but you know, how does anyone
live their best life?

SPEAKER_01 (56:38):
I think it's a struggle, honestly.
It's not as easy as it sounds.
I never want to make it soundlike, oh, just do this.
And that's we we we had a phrasethat popped up early on in this
dying out loud thing called whatwould Dave do?
And we made these WWDDbracelets, and you can get them
on our website, by the way.

(57:00):
That was birthed out of ourlocal meeting of ex-Christian
atheists that we meet once amonth in Nashville.
We used to anyway.
One of the ladies was justtalking about how frustrating
her day was.
This is a meeting a few weeksafter my diagnosis was made
known, and everybody was reallyemotional about it and
responding to it, reacting toit.
And she was just talking abouthow she was letting the

(57:22):
frustrations of the day get toher.
And she's paused and said, Well,Dave wouldn't be upset about
this.
Dave, you know, has got biggerissues.
Why am I letting this littlepetty thing ruin my day, that
kind of thing?
And so that's what what wouldDave do, someone said, and then
WWD and so bracelets were corn.
But it's not that simple, youknow.
You you I would say, yeah, don'tlet the little petty things get

(57:44):
to you.
Grab the sunshine, positivethinking.
All those things sound socliche-ish, like I'm a positive
mentality speaker.
And I don't ever want to comeacross that way because I know
it's not that easy just to shakeoff whatever's bugging you.
But the reality, the reality iswe kind of have to do that at

(58:04):
some level, or life can grindyou to powder.
Especially, I mean, my God, thisyear, like we joked before you
started recording.
Can we just be done with thisyear, please?
Um it just seems like one thingafter another, and it's we've
still got an election to getthrough.
So holy shit.
But yeah, you have to at somepoint back up in the midst of

(58:28):
your day or week, your month,whatever, and say, What am I
doing?
How am I doing it?
Is this the way I want to writemy story?
Is this the life I want to live?
Uh, if not, whose fault is that?
Who's gonna change that?
I've got to change.
Right.
So it takes some self-reflectionand some self-analysis, and that
sometimes can be a lot of work.

SPEAKER_03 (58:48):
So that kind of leads me to another question is
how has your bucket list evolvedsince your deconversion and your
diagnosis and now this wholeCOVID thing?
I mean, how are things changingfor you?
And I mean, that must be kind ofirritating.
I mean, having to reprioritizeall the time, it just seems like
I've had to do a little bit ofthat myself.

(59:10):
What's it like for you?

SPEAKER_01 (59:12):
It's it's always a process of adjustment, and
everyone has to do it, but anALS person has to do it on a
different level.
We uh there's a uh saying thatALS stands for always losing
something.
And and it does feel that way.
It does feel like you know, thelosses mount up, but you have to
find uh you have to find thegains, you have to find the

(59:34):
wins.
And sometimes they're a littleharder, harder to find, and
you've got to be more proactiveabout it.
And so what we've done, and youknow, mine are my bucket list
has shifted.
I mean, I'm still uh we'replanning to jump out of an
airplane.
We've got uh skydiving lessons.
I'm gonna scuba dive.
That's exciting.
I'm gonna do that.
Yeah, no, I mean there arethings that I can do that I'm

(59:56):
that I'm gonna make sure I do.

unknown (59:59):
We're

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
Travel.
We the meetings have gotten shutdown.
I doubt if we'll have anymeetings scheduled till next
year, but we're gonna we'reactually leaving.
Bevan and I are leaving middleof next week or late next week
for a 10-day.
We're gonna go out west to GrandCanyon and Bryce Canyon and just
see some sites.
I've never seen the GrandCanyon.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:18):
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:19):
So I feel like I need to do that before I die.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:21):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:23):
I've been to Europe a couple times and I want to go
back because it's I loveexploring different parts of
Europe.
So we've got tickets purchasedto Dublin and we're gonna spend
a good deal of October over inEurope.
Um we've got the beauty of thisthing that's happened this last
year is I've gotten connectedwith people all over the world
who invite me to come stay, comesee them.

(01:00:44):
You know, when you're whenyou're in Dublin, let me buy you
a pint.
When you're in Munich, I want tobuy you a drink.
You know, so we're gonna dowe're gonna do that as much as
COVID would allow us.
We're gonna do some things likethat while I still can.
So the bucket list has tochange, but there should always
be one.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:02):
So are there any projects that you're working on
right now that you'd like totell people about?
I've heard a buzz about adocumentary, but I don't really
know much more than that.
So that is something I I do havequestions about.
But are there, you know, tell usa little bit about what you're
working on right now that youwould like people to know about.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:20):
Yeah, there's a movie uh that's gonna come out
starring Brad Pitt as me, andbecause the resemblance is
startling.
Really?
Uh no.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:31):
I couldn't have believed it.
Oh my god, that's funny.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:35):
I'm working on a book.
I've been working on that forthe last year or so.
There is, there has been somework on a documentary.
We do have plans to do one.
We haven't come to an agreementon on the shape of it or the
tone of it yet.
So that's kind of on a littlebit of a stall.
Um, because we can't do any workon it right now anyway.
But yeah, we're we do want totell the story in a couple of

(01:01:57):
different formats.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:58):
So so whose story are we telling?
Your story, correct?
Yes.
Okay, okay.
I'm just I'm interested becauseI'm kind of a documentary snob.
Like that's like my guiltypleasure.
So I was like, ooh, documentary.
So you're working on a book andyou're kind of developing an
idea for a documentary.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:20):
I had one guy I was working with, and we we'd
actually he filmed some footage,um, some interview footage, and
he made a trailer and it was areally good one, but we really
could not agree on the tone ofit.
And it felt like I was he he wasbasically asking me to give up
control of the storyline, whichto a degree I understand because
a documentary filmmaker does notwant someone looking over his

(01:02:42):
shoulder saying, no, no, no,this shot is better or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:45):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:45):
And so, but I didn't I didn't want it to be about my
death, I wanted it to be aboutmy life.
Exactly.
And and and that's kind of wherewe differed.
So right now we're just in theprocess of looking for the right
connection for that documentaryperson, and then we're we do
have footage, and we wereconstantly uh videoing and

(01:03:07):
documenting the things that I'mdoing, and we're gonna, you
know, just shoot footage, whatthey what they call the b-roll,
right?
Um yeah, it's it's just we'rejust needing that right
connection.
So, where can people go to learnmore about you, Dave?
Dave Outloud.com is the website,and it's got links to all my

(01:03:28):
other stuff.
There's a Facebook page calledDying Out Loud, there's a
Twitter and Instagram, there'suh all the things, uh, email,
Patreon, all the things that youif you want to connect.
I love to connect with people.
Like I told you before, one ofmy favorite things to do, one of
my great joys is uh, you know,when I connect with people

(01:03:51):
through venues like this, andthis has happened a lot this
past year, and I'll find out,oh, you live so and so.
So when we go to that town, whenwe were traveling, we would have
these meet and greets, and I'dget to meet people that I'd
chatted with online and gotten,you know, connected with online.
And there's several people inEurope that we're looking
forward to meeting.
Um, you guys are out in uhVancouver, uh Washington area,

(01:04:14):
right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:15):
Uh yeah, we're just above the US border, actually,
in two places.
So so so yeah, like uh Vancouverarea.
When we get out, when we get outthere, you and we'll all have
drinks.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:26):
Absolutely.
And and that's my I just I justlove that.
Um, because the the humanity andthe and the connection and and
the interactions with people isjust what it really fuels me.
Um I guess I'm an extrovert inthat respect because I've
learned what they say is you'reinner if you're energized by

(01:04:46):
people, you're an extrovert.
And if you yeah, so I am, and sothis has been doubly hard for me
to shut everything down and toisolate.
So I drive Bevan crazy.
But um no, that's that's uh Ilove to connect with people and
they love and some of the showwhat's funny is I've got a
couple of really good friendsnow in the Nashville area that I

(01:05:08):
didn't know lived there untilthey heard me on a show and they
realized I'm in Nashville, andso we got together and they
became part of our local group,and they're what I'd call good
friends.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:17):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:18):
So it's neat to see how, you know, God just works
connections in his mysteriousway, doesn't he?

unknown (01:05:25):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:27):
Well, is there anything else that you'd like to
tell our listeners before wekind of conclude things?
I don't I don't want to missanything.
I don't want to leave anythingout because you have so much
good things to say, but you'rekind of all over the internet
too.
So it's I wonder if that peoplehave a chance to hear your story
and you don't have to repeatyourself.
But you know, what would you sayto our listeners out there right
now?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:47):
Well, it's just that.
Um, if you want to know moreabout my journey, um, go to the
website, daveoutloud.com.
There's a link to all thedifferent shows I've done, the
speaking uh, there's YouTubevideos of the speaking
engagement.
So there's there are placeswhere I tell the story in more
detail or different facets ofit.
Every show, you know, it'sinteresting because, like I

(01:06:08):
said, I've done so many shows,and but everyone is completely
different.
And I just when I think, oh, andI'm gonna say the same thing
over and over again, it's alwaysdifferent.
And you've brought out some goodangles too, uh Alexis.
You had some good questions.
So I realize it's never thesame, and there's always another
facet to it.
Not that you want to know everydetail of my life, listeners,

(01:06:28):
but if there are questions andplease reach out to me, um, send
me a message, fend me onFacebook, Twitter, whatever.
Let me know.
You know, you heard me on theshow, we'd love to connect with
you.
We will be traveling again, youknow, probably not till next
year, but I do believe I'll beable to travel another couple,

(01:06:49):
three years based on how I'mgoing.
And so I do believe we're gonnareschedule the things we had
scheduled.
I think I told you we had aconference scheduled in
Vancouver in April that had tobe canceled.
Right.
So yeah, I'm gonna be gettingaround to places again.
And if you're in those areas, Itell the listeners to follow me

(01:07:09):
and follow the calendar becausewe we post meetings, and then if
you're in that area, we love tomeet you.
I love that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:16):
Great.
Well, Dave, I have to say thatyou know, at the beginning of
our conversation, I was I Iskipped this part because I
didn't want to start talking toomuch and running my mouth, but
we're I'm so excited to have youon the show.
When I first learned about whoyou were, I was like, wow, I was
somebody who really understandswhat you need to do in order to

(01:07:38):
live your best life.
And I I really want to extendthat to my listeners because I
mean, I'm sure you know as wellas anyone that estrangement can
bring swarms of grief andsadness and all these kinds of
emotions.
And it's very, very hard to kindof put those feelings aside and
prioritize life in the moment.

(01:07:58):
And so I'm really, reallygrateful to have you on this
show.
So I have to say thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:04):
Well, thank you.
I'm happy to be on it, and Ireally appreciate your um focus
on this issue because it's it'sa tough one.
And and I do I want to say thisto your listeners because it is
around the estrangement topic.
It's very easy to let yourselffeel guilty for allowing
estrangement, or if you are theone that had to initiate it

(01:08:27):
because of toxicity in therelationship, it's easy for
guilt to lodge there and thatyou're doing something wrong.
And I just want to say thatthere's never any reason that
you should put yourself inemotional harm or physical or
mental harm for the sake ofmaintaining a relationship
that's damaging.

(01:08:48):
And I know you know that, but Iknow that people deal with with
some false guilt in thoseregards because I've talked to
too many of them.
And there's a lot of there's alot of depression and guilt that
goes into that because they'vehad to or they've been cut off
by family or they've had to cutfamily off.
And I just want to say family isnot always everything.
Who made that up?
It's not always the thing to beprotected against all costs.

(01:09:12):
That's not a thing.
It doesn't have to be a thing,right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:16):
Well, thank you so much, Dave.
I again thank you for being aguest on the show.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:21):
You bet.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:22):
We'll have to talk to you again soon.
And yeah, as soon as you comeout here, we're gonna go out for
drinks and cigars.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:28):
You bet.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:29):
Okay.
We'll talk to you soon, Dave.
Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:32):
Thanks, Alexa.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:35):
Links in this week's show notes.
Please remember to like, follow,and share.
Thoughts expressed by our guestsdo not necessarily reflect the
views of WTVB or its affiliates.
The views expressed on this showare opinion and experience based
and are not intended as asubstitute for therapy.
Content should not be taken asmedical advice and is here for
informational purposes only.
Please consult your healthcareprofessional for any medical or

(01:09:57):
mental health related questions.
Thank you for listening to Whenthe Bell Breaks.