April 3, 2020 • 50 mins
AC joins Alexis to bring everyone up to date on his estrangement story.
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
The following is a Kingfisher Studios podcast.
(00:07):
Thanks for listening to When theBow Breaks.
This is Alexis Arlen.
Today I'm with AC Fisher fromTurn Up the AC Podcast and
Kingfisher Studios.
So you've been busy the past fewmonths with your podcasting.
SPEAKER_05 (00:25):
I've been very busy, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (00:27):
Yes.
So for those of you who don'tknow, I know this guy.
I've known him since I think thefirst episode, which was called
Why Can't We All Just Get Along?
So you've been busy with yourpodcasts.
I I would really like for you toexplain what your podcast is and
talk about it before we get intothe update because that's
(00:50):
something fun and cool that'sbeen happening during this whole
time.
So I want to kind of start withthat.
SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
I get put on the hot seat a lot with questions about
my podcast.
And the most common one is justa really simple one, which is
what is your podcast about?
And I'm never really sureexactly how to answer that.
Because basically what I do is Ithink back on situations from my
past, or I think oninspirational quotes, and I sort
(01:17):
of just unpack my emotions, mypersonal philosophies, and
sometimes just like simplememories.
Um, in in an effort to letpeople inside of my head and see
what makes me tick.
It's really just an exercise inbearing all of me to anybody
who's interested in listening.
SPEAKER_03 (01:37):
Yeah, so I've listened to it.
I've listened to every episode.
SPEAKER_05 (01:41):
I should hope so.
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
Uh I actually have an episode on your show as well.
That I pitched that myself.
Uh no, but uh let's give that ashameless plug.
SPEAKER_05 (01:52):
The episode is called Where is My Shade and
It's Wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (01:56):
Yeah, so just yeah, if you have time, listen to it.
SPEAKER_05 (01:59):
Make the time or I'll cut you.
SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
So you've been busy with that, and it I've listened
to it, and it's almost kind oflike a biographical type of
podcast, I feel.
It's stories about your life, oryou give insights or your
thoughts on people that um whoinspire you.
SPEAKER_05 (02:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (02:21):
I feel like all the good stuff is in this podcast.
SPEAKER_05 (02:25):
I like to think so.
I mean, my latest episode at thetime of recording is not yet
released, but this sort of goesinto a little bit of the not
pretty side of me.
But um all in all, I I like tothink that you know people that
listen to it are gonna walk awaywith kind of a good feeling and
maybe some introspectivethoughts of their own.
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
So, what inspired you to do this podcast, this new
one, Turn Up the AC?
SPEAKER_05 (02:53):
For a couple of years, my brother Jason Moore
and I, uh, I'll give him ashameless plug from the Podverse
podcast.
Um, we used to do uh a showcalled The Missionary Position,
and for the longest time I wasfeeling creatively stifled
because I always had somebody toanswer to, and I I had it in my
(03:14):
head that okay, I've got a lotof these like thoughts in my
head that need to come out.
I can't keep answering to aco-host, I need my own platform
where it's just me, I answer tonobody, and um I had started
conceptualizing turn up the AC,which was sort of intended as a
play on my name, AC Fisher,whereas you know, like turn me
(03:36):
up in the sense of like I wasjust gonna go on these mad rants
and tangents and just reallyexplode into the mic, but I just
couldn't seem to get anythingtogether that I thought anybody
was gonna listen to.
So I put the title on the backburner, and um you actually had
(03:57):
been encouraging me to do somewriting, and I'm not really a
writer so much as a talker.
So I started writing with theintention of recording these
thoughts, and one night afteryou'd gone to sleep, I started
writing, then I recorded whatI'd written, and I think by the
(04:17):
time the world woke up the nextmorning, I had launched Turn Up
the AC, and it was as much asurprise to me as it was to
anybody else.
SPEAKER_03 (04:26):
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I remember that.
SPEAKER_05 (04:31):
So I guess at the end of the day, you're
responsible for Turn Up the AC.
SPEAKER_03 (04:37):
I wouldn't say that.
Uh I don't think I could havelaunched a podcast overnight
like that.
I think the whole the wholething, I think you have.
But anyway, uh this podcast isreally cool.
So aside from the podcast, uh,what's the real reason why you
and I are talking again on myshow?
SPEAKER_05 (04:59):
Let's talk mother issues.
You know, like that that that'swhere we started.
I think our very firstconversation was you
interviewing me about my at thetime estranged mother.
And uh we we talked about avariety of complicated family
issues and difficult background.
We had a lot of common ground,but um, some things have changed
(05:22):
since that conversation a littlebit over a year ago.
SPEAKER_03 (05:26):
So between you and your mother, how have things
changed?
SPEAKER_05 (05:32):
We're talking now.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (05:37):
I guess I I guess that's the biggest change.
SPEAKER_03 (05:39):
Uh-huh.
And how do these conversationsgo, would you say?
How often do you see yourmother, for example?
SPEAKER_05 (05:47):
Probably a little bit more often than I'd like to.
Um I I see her at least once aweek these days.
SPEAKER_03 (05:53):
Yeah.
I'd say that's about average,yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean, more is changed than just us actually
seeing each other.
SPEAKER_03 (06:01):
Um so backing up just a little bit, what made you
just how did this happen?
First of all, how did you starttalking to your mother again?
Was it her?
Was it you who initiatedcontact?
Was there a go-between?
SPEAKER_05 (06:17):
It was a combination of things.
So my my sister Elle, who wementioned the last time we
talked on this show, had beenneedling me for probably about a
year and a half, saying, youknow, like mom's different now,
she's changed.
Um, I think you're ready to talkto her, things like that.
And you know, like, don't youlove her?
(06:37):
Isn't there like some way youcan put things aside, blah,
blah, blah?
And presumably she was workingon my mom in the same way at the
same time.
But I I wasn't really feelingready for the longest time.
And um I guess to to cut out awhole lot of boring detail,
really, like what the breakingpoint for me was in conversing
(07:00):
with with my sister was she hadpointed out to me that, like,
look, even if mom is the exactsame person that you last spoke
to, you're not the same personas you were then.
You've gone through a lot ofchanges.
You've taken the time to reflectand work on the things that
weren't really super nice aboutyou.
(07:21):
You don't react in the sameways, you've gotten help for
your mental health issues, youknow, like all kinds of things
had changed over the six or soyears that I didn't speak to my
mother.
So I guess I realized that mysister had a point that even if
my mother was just a horriblemonster, if I were to see her,
the risk of me actually likehaving a strong reaction or
(07:44):
taking any real offense wasfairly small.
SPEAKER_03 (07:48):
So what happened on that day?
What were some of the questionsthat you had the day that you
met up with your mom again?
SPEAKER_05 (07:57):
Like before meeting her, you mean?
SPEAKER_03 (07:58):
Yeah, like for example, in the car on the way
there.
What was going through yourmind?
SPEAKER_05 (08:05):
Honestly, like the car ride over is a bit of a blur
looking back on it.
I remember in general thequestions I had leading up to
the meeting, you know, like I Ididn't feel comfortable going
alone.
So I'd wanted somebody to bewith me, and I think I kind of
caught you off guard by first ofall announcing that I was ready
(08:28):
to see my mother and that it wasbasically happening like really,
really soon.
Like I don't know if it was likethat day or the next day, but I
remember your jaw sort ofhitting the floor, and then
especially so when I said, like,I didn't think I could go
without you.
But you know, the the the thequestions that I had, I think
that's what you were askingabout, were I don't know if it
(08:51):
was specific questions, so muchas me just wondering, you know,
like first of all, like what'sshe gonna look like?
I haven't seen the woman in likesix years, and like she's in her
70s, so you know, a face can gothrough a lot of changes over
the course of a few years inthat age group.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_05 (09:07):
I didn't know, like, am I gonna have any feelings
towards her at all?
Because after the initialestrangement, I'd had to grieve
her loss as though she had died.
I had learned to live my lifewithout her in it.
I had cried all of my tears.
(09:28):
I had, you know, restructured mysocial life in a way that no
longer accommodated her, andtruthfully, I didn't really need
her, and I wasn't even sure if Iwanted her.
So my my biggest concern,honestly, was that like there
was just gonna be nothing there,and I was I don't know, gonna
(09:53):
find myself in a confusingsituation.
SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
Yeah, so I remember there was like it was a long
enough car ride to have, youknow, ask yourself those
questions.
It was a long enough car ride tohave some anxieties about it
going terribly wrong, you know,and then it was also about like
savor the time because you neverknow if it's going to happen
again.
SPEAKER_05 (10:15):
Right.
So we get out of the car, we Iremember we drove to her place,
which was a bit weird in itselfbecause I actually had to get
directions to my mother's house.
I didn't even know where shelived.
SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
Yeah.
So yeah, I think we made a wrongturn once, I think.
SPEAKER_05 (10:32):
Yeah, and I almost decided to not go through with
the visit just because thatwrong turn just felt like a good
excuse.
SPEAKER_03 (10:40):
Yeah, you were on the edge of it.
I remember I was like, wow, whatan adventure, and I'm along for
the ride.
That was really how I wasfeeling.
I really did not know how it wasgoing to play out.
So we get there and you know,maybe tell me just a little bit
about that.
SPEAKER_05 (10:59):
Oh my god, was that ever awkward?
SPEAKER_03 (11:03):
Oh, that was awkward for a number of reasons.
SPEAKER_05 (11:05):
You know, because we I I remember knocking on the
door and hearing that familiarvoice saying, Um, come in.
I think the door was actuallyopen partially at least.
And um there was like a mosquitonet or a curtain or something
covering the door, so it wassort of like it was translucent.
(11:26):
I could see her, but not really.
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (11:29):
She was kind of like out of focus, laying on the
couch.
And um honestly, like putting myeyes on her for the first time
in that many years was kind of asurreal experience.
It wasn't like, oh my god,there's my mummy.
It was just a case of, huh, Ican't believe we're actually
(11:52):
this close to each other.
Like I really emotionally wasn'tsure what to do with it.
I don't remember exactly whereyou were in relation to me.
I remember, like, I don't know,in that moment, my biggest
concern was how is she going tobe able to digest the fact that
(12:14):
I'm showing up with you when thelast time she saw me, you know,
it was me and my ex-wife weretogether.
And presumably, so far as sheimagined me, it was still me and
my ex-wife, and here I am withthis new woman after seeing her
son for the first time in likesix years.
SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
Yeah, it definitely wasn't the position I'd ever
been in.
SPEAKER_05 (12:36):
So it's not the best way to meet the mother.
SPEAKER_03 (12:40):
Yeah.
So it yeah, so that was awkward.
I feel like it was awkward forme too, a little bit because of
everything that you told meabout your mother, like the
good, the bad, you know, all ofthat.
And I I did have a worry thatlike I was going to have to, I
didn't know for sure if I wouldshould wear armor or if I should
(13:02):
bring like a bouquet, or youknow, like really I didn't know.
SPEAKER_05 (13:06):
And so she's a difficult person to to to
prepare for, even when you knowher, because I mean, like, yeah,
she's a very colorful person.
And like to be totally fair toher, that's an understatement.
I I don't know if she like everis intentionally an asshole with
people, or if this is justsomething that she trips into
(13:29):
and she's as surprised asanybody else.
Like, she's a she's a funny,quirky, eccentric loon, really.
SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
Who has all her faculties.
SPEAKER_05 (13:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:43):
Yeah.
Sorry, I had to.
SPEAKER_05 (13:46):
That was a bit of an insider joke.
SPEAKER_03 (13:48):
It was a combination of that was a recent joke.
But um so Met Mom again.
Then after that, it seemed likea whole string of like important
like milestones, I guess, if ifyou will, for you and I
personally, um, together werehappening.
So there was more family events,and it was more okay that you
(14:10):
guys were in the same roomtogether, and that it, you know,
there was not really anyconflict.
Has there been very muchconflict with you guys?
You know, I know you guys didn'talways agree.
SPEAKER_05 (14:21):
Well, we still don't always agree.
Um I I I have to say that likeit's not your typical mother-son
relationship, but I can't saythat it's a bad relationship.
SPEAKER_03 (14:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (14:35):
Um the the first couple of interactions that we
had after reconnecting,honestly, I felt like it was
something that I was doing formy sister because I knew that it
really troubled her that my momand I weren't in communication.
I felt like it was somethingthat I was doing for my kids
(14:55):
because they had been deprivedof the opportunity of having a
grandmother for this many years.
And I even felt like, you know,it was something I was doing for
my mom because I mean, she wasold and like I'm a parent, I get
it.
I know how like whether or notyour kids think you're doing a
good job, you still love them,and you can't turn that off,
(15:16):
even if they think you have.
And I thought, like, it costs menothing to put myself in this
situation, it really doesn't,but there's so many people that
potentially benefit from it.
I wasn't gonna be an obstacle toanybody else's happiness.
SPEAKER_03 (15:34):
I see.
So it's been how many months nowsince you've had contact with
your mom again?
SPEAKER_05 (15:41):
I think it was like tail end of summer, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:42):
Like six months about.
SPEAKER_05 (15:45):
Yeah, something like that.
It was about six months.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
So six months.
In the last six months, how howwould you sum up the last six
months regarding you and yourmom?
SPEAKER_05 (16:02):
I feel like I've actually gotten to know her for
the first time in my life, andmore importantly, I feel like
she's gotten to know me.
Because the the theme of megrowing up was really centered
around her believing that sheknew me better than I knew me,
(16:22):
which was always really hard todigest.
Um, coming back to my podcast,there was a lot of stuff I
wasn't really sure how tocommunicate directly to my mom
because I didn't know how tohave the conversations, and I
knew that I wanted to spend timewith her just again to like make
it easier for everybody aroundus and and to make it easier for
(16:45):
her too.
Just like me spending the timethere I knew made my sister feel
good.
I know it made my kids feelgood, I know it made my mom feel
good.
I was still feeling a whole lotof nothing through this time,
and I wasn't really sure how tolike have certain conversations
because I mean her life iscentered around her faith.
My life does not involve a faithelement, and there's a lot of
(17:10):
trauma that I associate with herreligion.
So, I mean, how do you have ameaningful conversation with
somebody when the only depththat they can find is in matters
of faith?
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (17:26):
So I didn't want to end up sitting across the table
from her having a bunch of how'sthe weather conversations.
I didn't want to get into familygossip or any of that nonsense.
But I thought, like, hey, ifshe's gonna ask me what have you
been up to, I'm not gonna say,well, you know, I painted
another apartment today.
Like, who cares?
I paint day in and day out,nothing new at work.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (17:49):
She doesn't know my friends, she doesn't know I
guess the cultural referencesthat I might make about the
things that interest me.
But I thought, like, I do thispodcast, I'll just let her hear
some episodes, and I startedplaying her some, and I think
the first one I played her wasan episode, an episode called
(18:10):
Luba, where I talk about myfirst love.
And, you know, my mom was thereto see that whole relationship
play out, but there were so manydetails she was unaware of, she
had no idea.
And I remember her listening tothat episode and openly weeping
and telling me, you know, howbeautiful it was, and
(18:32):
apologizing for, you know, notunderstanding or not seeing
certain things, and then sheasked if she could hear another
one.
So I played her, I think, six orseven episodes during that
visit, and at the end of it, youknow, she was just sort of like
staring at me in amazement,telling me what a beautiful man
(18:53):
I was, and how um she didn'tdeserve to identify as my mother
because I was something that wasmuch better than she could have
raised.
She felt like I was the personthat I was because of me,
(19:16):
because of something that didn'tinvolve her.
She felt like I had turned intome in spite of her, not because
of her, which was a bit of abreaking point for me too,
because I had to tell her that,like, look, you didn't fuck up
all across the board.
I am who I am because of you.
(19:37):
Which, you know, that started towake up the first little bit of
emotion I had toward the womanbecause even just parents to
parent, even if it's not a caseof me thinking, hey, I love you,
mom, I can empathize withanother parent who's struggling
with stuff, right?
Like we all I think we havethose days where You know, we
(20:01):
think we've done everythingwrong, but even despite all the
things we do wrong, weaccidentally do the right thing
sometimes too, and my mom was noexception.
SPEAKER_03 (20:12):
So she said that she felt she didn't deserve to be
called your mother.
Did she ever talk about thingsthat she felt sorry for?
Did she ever apologize to youfor anything?
SPEAKER_05 (20:27):
God, she apologized for everything.
Like I don't know if it was inthat conversation, but I mean we
had a series of goodconversations because I think
like the first few visits I'dmade sure that I'd had you with
me, or that my sister was there,or that I brought my son with
me.
Just so that I would havesomebody to run interference
(20:50):
between her and I.
But then I I decided that youknow I'm gonna have to sooner or
later spend a little bit of timeone-on-one with the woman.
Yeah.
So I I started doing that, andit's it's interesting how things
come up because it's like it'snot like she said, Hey son, come
over.
I need to like tell you somethings.
(21:10):
It would be a case of like herand I are having a cup of tea
and just telling stories aboutour pasts, you know, like not
our shared past, but she wouldtell me stories about when she
was young, I would tell herthings that she wasn't
previously aware of.
And once in a while, somethingwould just spark something in
(21:33):
either her or in I where it wasa case of look, there's
something to make right here,there's something to
acknowledge, you know.
She apologized for never havingbeen approachable.
SPEAKER_03 (21:42):
Uh-huh.
And that was different.
SPEAKER_05 (21:46):
Yeah, surprisingly different, honestly, because my
mom has never been anapproachable person on any level
in any context at any time.
And when I go to visit her now,the woman that I find sitting
across from me is usually quiteapproachable.
She doesn't always understandwhat's being brought to her, but
(22:10):
she does take the time toactually hear me out.
SPEAKER_03 (22:14):
I would say that that's the person that I know.
I don't see her asunapproachable.
I see her as maybe hard tofigure out sometimes.
SPEAKER_04 (22:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
But I would not say unapproachable.
In fact, and I don't know ifshe's just this way with me,
because I've seen her behavethis way towards other people
too.
She'll she'll basically have youcome in and she'll be like, So,
how are you?
Without all the crap, basically.
Like, like cut the crap, likeget to the really important
(22:46):
things that matter, like what'sgoing on in the world.
SPEAKER_05 (22:48):
No, she asks, How are you doing with the
expectation that you're going togive an honest answer?
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you don't, she'll ask youother questions.
She might even make fun of youas you're trying to like, you
know, roll your answer out ofyour tongue in a way that she
can understand.
So it's actually really fun,like talking to her and stuff,
um, getting to know her andeverything, and there are
definitely like somesimilarities.
But what was some other thingsthat you found was different
(23:14):
from the time before you beforeyou uh spoke or during your
estrangement until you startedtalking again?
Like what was different beforeand after?
SPEAKER_05 (23:25):
Um I'm gonna own my shit up front.
Before I was a very reactiveperson and I took offense very
easily.
Um, I think that everyconversation that her and I
entered into, I was carrying theweight of every conversation
that had come before it with me.
(23:49):
So any small misstepconversationally, she was in the
hot seat for like everyconversation that we'd ever had
before.
And I would be reacting to alifetime of nonsense.
Now, you know, if there's amisstep conversationally, it's
(24:09):
kept within the context of thatconversation.
If I'm misunderstandingsomething, like first of all,
I'm not gonna react.
I'm gonna say, can you explainwhat you mean by that?
I don't assume that I know whatshe means by things.
You know, I try to take thatapproach all across the board.
So I mean, it's not somethingspecial that I put on for my
mom.
(24:30):
I know, like, I'd mentioned thislike in our first interview a
year or so ago, that you know,one of my central philosophies
that I've adopted is thatoffense is taken, it's not
given.
And a lot of people, I think,misinterpret that to mean that
I've given myself license justto be a jerk.
But it it's very much a two-waystreet.
(24:52):
I have to understand that myoffense is taken, it's not given
to me by another party.
You've actually called me out onthat a couple of times.
So, like, I'm not perfect in theapplication of it.
But, you know, like when I'mwhen I'm dealing with my mom,
I've I've always got to likeweigh out now how much my own
(25:14):
emotional state, how my bloodsugar, you know, how my level of
r rest is factoring into theconversation.
I I did I never did that before.
It was a case of okay, I'm alittle punchy, she should have
noticed and tread a little bitmore lightly around me.
SPEAKER_03 (25:30):
Um, it's kind of like that mental body scan that
you do to see, hey, how am Iactually doing?
But like you're doing it in themoment.
SPEAKER_05 (25:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (25:39):
So I I guess like I I don't know like how much it's
fair to say, oh, she's reallychanged, because I mean, like,
all of us to a certain degree,we're gonna reflect the person
that's sitting across from us.
And um, I think I'm definitelybringing a different person and
a different set of variables tothe table than I did before.
(26:02):
Um, I'd like to think I make iteasier for her, but I have to
also acknowledge that shecertainly makes it easier for me
these days.
There are times where I knowthat she really would like to
say something, but she knowsthat it would be inappropriate
and that I wouldn't understandor agree, and that there's a
strong likelihood that you knowit's gonna cause conflict, and
(26:25):
she dials herself back.
So, I mean, I guess both of ushave learned to self-regulate a
little better.
SPEAKER_03 (26:32):
Yeah.
I've heard her apologize inadvance for anything, like if
she's about to tell a story orsomething, she'll apologize in
advance.
Sorry if this bothers you, butthis is what happened, and you
know, stop me, you know,basically, but in a nutshell.
But um, she's a much moreeloquent speaker than I am.
(26:55):
But uh, but yeah, I I Idefinitely say that she's
certainly not the person thatyou described that you once
knew.
SPEAKER_05 (27:04):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Like I I have to give hercredit.
I mean, she has gone throughsome serious changes.
She does put in a lot of effort,and while I still struggle to
conjure up any meaningful levelof emotional bond for her, I
have to say, in all honesty,that I really do like the woman.
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
That was something that was funny.
Uh, if it's okay if I sharethis, you know, I asked him,
like, what do you how do youfeel about your mother?
You know, because I'm like allempathic and I'm all about my
emotions and other people'semotions and feelings, right?
So I'm like, oh, how do youfeel?
And he's like, I don't reallyfeel one way or another.
(27:47):
It's just like, whatever.
You know, you know, and and thatwas a bit odd to me, but if I
were in that position, I can'tsay that, yeah, I'd be like, oh,
mommy, or you know, that I'dwant to like just bury them
because I don't think I'd wantto go near them if I felt that
way.
So I guess, you know, if I werein the same situation, I'd feel
(28:07):
better.
SPEAKER_05 (28:08):
But in a way, I kind of did bury my mother, and what
I got instead was I made aninteresting new friend.
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_05 (28:18):
Which is I call her mom.
SPEAKER_03 (28:21):
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So what have you learned in thetime that you've been away from
your mother?
SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
That working on self is the most important thing that
any of us can do.
With any strained relationship,worrying about all the misstep
steps that the other people havetaken is wholly irrelevant.
I know this is something that'sgoing to really bother a lot of
people because I know theaudience of this show for sure,
a lot of you are dealing withestrangement, and a lot of you
(28:53):
are looking at that one familymember and thinking, no, no, my
story's different.
Well, your story's notdifferent.
I don't care how extreme it is,I don't care how much of a jerk
your estranged family member ormembers are, you still got to
work on you.
And looking at my own situation,there's a lot of horrible things
(29:16):
that have been said and donethat can't be unsaid or undone.
But I try to take these memoriesand these experiences in the
context of the fact that we allmess up sometimes.
Sometimes we mess upconsistently for years and
years.
(29:37):
But um, like I talked about onmy show, I can't remember what
the episode was, is basicallysaying that like everybody's got
a story.
We all have these things thatmotivate us or compel us to act
certain ways or say certainthings or do certain things, and
we're all very well justified inevery moment of our lives.
(29:57):
Maybe in retrospect, thatjustification doesn't hold up,
but in the moment, that's wherelife is lived.
So if we don't want to bedefined by our past and we don't
want to be on the hook for everymisstep we've ever taken, it
would be hugely hypocritical ofany of us to hold anybody else
(30:19):
on the hook for the misstepsthat they've taken.
SPEAKER_03 (30:23):
Right.
I I find that sometimes livingin the moment when all you have
is a history with someone can bevery, very difficult.
But like you said, you just kindof do things slowly, like one
visit at a time.
SPEAKER_05 (30:39):
That's all you can do.
SPEAKER_03 (30:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (30:41):
I mean, like somebody told me years ago that
expectations lead todisappointment, and I thought at
the time, like, what a ugly wayto look at the world.
But I I think that there is somemerit to it.
I mean, if you go into asituation with no expectations,
you really can't bedisappointed.
You know.
Um The other thing I wanted tosay to like to anybody who's
(31:07):
like thinking about likeestranged family members, like
tying into what I was sayingabout everybody being justified
in the moment, is that a lot ofthe time we make unfair
assumptions because we think weknow the other person really
really well, and we think thatwe can get inside their heads
(31:27):
and we can answer why they werethat way or why they said
certain things or what actuallymotivated them, which is kind of
not fair.
Doesn't matter how much wedislike somebody or how much
they've hurt us, we can't assumethat we know all of these
things, and we can't react tothe situation based on our
(31:48):
knee-jerk assumptions.
We have to take things as theycome, we have to be open-minded.
And I know how hard that isbecause you know it's something
that I have to force myself todo as well.
SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
So just for fun, can you share something funny or
like a good memory that you'vehad with your mom since
reconnecting with her?
SPEAKER_05 (32:15):
Well, it's not funny.
It was sort of like profound forfor me.
Um just before Christmas, I wasreally sweating about a gift
that I had gotten for oneparticular person because it
seemed like every time I hadmanaged to get the right gift, I
(32:37):
would hear from somebody else inour shared circle that, oh, I
got this for so-and-so, and Iwas thinking, damn it, like now
I gotta go return what I got.
And budget was really tight thispast Christmas, so my my options
were kind of limited, and Ireally wasn't sure what to do.
It was like it seemed like onething after another, and then I
was at the end of my options,and I had very little money and
(33:02):
no gift, and Christmas wasliterally like right around the
corner, and I didn't know whatto do, and I don't know why, but
I thought to phone my mom andask her for help, which is not a
phone call that I would haveexpected to feel motivated
toward.
But I picked up the phone, I'mlike, hey mom, I got the
(33:24):
situation, and she's like, Don'tworry, come pick me up.
I know exactly what to do.
And we went out and we did aspot of Christmas shopping
together.
We got things done, and I thinkfrom the time I picked her up to
the time like I had the giftpurchased and wrapped and ready
to go was less than an hour, andthen we ended up spending the
(33:46):
entire day together just talkingabout everything and nothing,
and we had a wonderful daytogether.
I don't know that it's a nicehappy ending.
There's a lot of there's a lotof conflict like internally with
me.
SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
Yeah.
So what are you what are some ofyour internal conflicts that you
have going on right now asyou're you know reconnecting
with your mom?
SPEAKER_05 (34:08):
Well, there's the ongoing insecurity, like you
know, like how long is thisgonna last?
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (34:15):
Have things really changed?
SPEAKER_03 (34:17):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05 (34:18):
You know, like if something happens, you know, the
kind of stuff that happens whenany two people try to relate to
each other.
Conflict is part of the game.
You cannot avoid it.
But are we gonna be able toweather the storm if there is a
serious disagreement?
Like we've had a couple of likesmall things come up, but
they've been resolved fairlyquickly.
(34:41):
But I don't know if we relate toeach other effectively enough
where if something big came upthat we could get over it.
And I worry that if somethingwere to happen that would leave
me separated from my motheragain, like I don't know
emotionally what frame of mindthat would put me in.
(35:04):
Because it was one of the thingsthat had made me hesitant to
reconnect with her initially,was that I didn't know if I
could handle losing her a secondtime.
SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (35:15):
But now, like kind of reconnecting with her, I'm
not like connecting with thatsame person, so I don't know if
losing her would be the same aslosing my mom a second time.
That worries me too, that I'mjust dealing with something that
is so unknown.
SPEAKER_03 (35:30):
Yeah.
Do you have any regrets aboutthe time spent apart from her or
how it ended, or is thereanything that you wish you could
change or that you could havedone over the I wish that um
(35:53):
that final conversation that herand I had, the one that set
these six years of separation inmotion.
SPEAKER_05 (36:04):
I wish that I had been more in touch with myself
at that time.
Because if I had been, if I'dbeen more in touch, more I guess
more like I am now, I would haverealized things about me like,
first of all, I struggle withmental illness challenges.
I didn't at the time understandthat I was suffering with
(36:27):
general anxiety and panicdisorder and PTSD and like all
these other things.
SPEAKER_03 (36:33):
Before you were a strange.
SPEAKER_05 (36:34):
Before.
SPEAKER_03 (36:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (36:35):
I didn't realize that a lot of these issues I had
had inherited from my mother.
So there was no way to realizethat there were two mentally ill
people engaging into a heatedconversation that was going to
end very badly.
I'd like to think that if one ofus had had our shit together
back then, it wouldn't haveplayed out that way.
(36:56):
And I don't sit there wishing,well, I wish that you, Mom, had
had your shit together.
I I wish that it had been me,because once I started working
on me, I realized that like it'snot really like this big
overwhelming task.
I mean, it's not like you canflick a switch and then
(37:19):
magically you're okay, but Imean, every day comes with a
series of decisions, and there'sa series of things you can do or
you can avoid doing.
And it's not like I'm a personaldevelopment guru, I'm still kind
of like a messed up person in alot of ways.
SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (37:37):
But all of the things I've accomplished as far
as like working on me, each ofthe little pieces has been real
easy.
SPEAKER_03 (37:48):
So what would you say to someone who is thinking
about reconnecting with thatperson in their life who they
haven't spoken with for a longtime?
That person that they both loveand also maybe can't stand, or
that person who hurt themterribly.
(38:10):
But you still love them enoughto want something out of the
relationship.
What would you say to thatperson who's considering that?
SPEAKER_05 (38:22):
That's not the simplest thing to answer.
Um there's a few factors at playhere.
Um the first thing I would wantthe person to answer for
themselves is are you ready?
Emotionally, are you ready?
Which I know from experienceisn't the easiest thing.
(38:47):
You know, another question toask yourself is like what's
motivating you towards thispotential reconnection?
You know, are you going inbecause oh, so and so is getting
older, or we don't know, youknow, with what's gonna happen
with everybody's health.
Am I gonna miss a window ofopportunity here?
(39:08):
Like, I don't I think as much asthese are compelling reasons to
try to reconnect, I don't knowthat they're like really the
most valuable reasons.
I think unless there issomething in you that needs to
reconnect with this person, itmight not be the best time, you
know.
(39:28):
And I would say to anybody whois expecting to get something
from the other person, you'regonna have to figure out how to
get over that before you eventhink about reconnecting because
you can't place any expectationson another person to give you
something that you need.
You can't hold them accountable,put them on the hot seat, or
(39:50):
make them answer for theircrimes.
SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
Right.
It's just like setting yourselfup for more loss.
SPEAKER_05 (39:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:57):
Yeah, like like you said, you gotta live.
In the moment.
You can't live like there'sanything that's left that's
owed.
SPEAKER_05 (40:04):
Yeah, and and really I think instead of considering
what the other person isbringing to the situation,
probably spend as much time asyou possibly can figuring out
what it is that you're bringingto the situation.
Try to put everything back onyourself.
And like I'm not saying thatlike you ignore the fact that
other people have fucked up.
You don't ignore the fact thatyou know you've been hurt
(40:27):
because of their words oractions.
Sure.
But it's not on you to holdanybody personally responsible.
That's on them to own theirshit.
It's on you to own your own.
SPEAKER_03 (40:39):
Right.
Do you feel like your mom is acompletely different person than
she was before?
SPEAKER_05 (40:45):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (40:47):
Because I find that there are certain I feel like
how you described her to me wasalmost like to a T, except for
her being unapproachable.
SPEAKER_05 (41:02):
Yeah, like it I can't say that she hasn't
changed, but she's not adifferent person.
Not by any stretch of theimagination.
SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
She's still her.
SPEAKER_05 (41:11):
Yeah.
And I I think like the biggestchange is in um the way I look
at her.
I did a whole episode about itactually called Verbs, where I
realized that, you know, like Ihad sort of typecast my mom into
the role of being whatever thisnegative combination of things
(41:33):
was.
I wasn't allowing her the roomto like move and shake and you
know flow and do whatever it isthat normal people do.
Like I guess I've allowed her tojust be her without like a whole
lot of stuff riding on it.
SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Uh-huh.
Has your reconnection with yourmom affected the family in any
kind of way?
SPEAKER_05 (41:57):
Again, I don't know like exactly how to answer that.
I like I've I've talked to acouple of different people in
the family about it.
Like my sister Elle, I thinkshe's probably the most affected
because she's the one who's gotthe big house, she's the one
that likes to do entertainingduring the holiday season and
things like that.
So like when we createreconnected at the tail in the
(42:20):
summer, the first thing out ofher mouth was, Oh, this is
awesome.
Now like I don't have to worryabout who to invite at Christmas
time.
Everybody can show up.
SPEAKER_03 (42:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (42:30):
You know, it was a big thing for her.
She likes the fact that like ifshe's out for coffee with our
mother, you know, and iPhone herand say, Hey, do you want to get
together for coffee?
She doesn't have to like ditchour mom to come hang out with
me.
She just say, Look, I got mom inthe car, we'll be there in 15
minutes, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (42:47):
Um, like talking to my younger son, who's 12 now.
Um I think it's a he's got a bitof a relief because he is very,
very loyal to me.
And I think for a long time,like he was afraid to
(43:09):
acknowledge the fact that hemissed his grandmother and he
wanted to see her.
To him, he always played it offlike, oh, it's no big deal, no,
I don't miss her, this, that,and the other thing.
But now that she is an optionthat's on the table, now he says
things like, I'm really, reallyhappy to have Nana back in my
life.
I really missed her.
It was difficult for me, youknow, knowing that you and her
(43:31):
weren't getting along.
You know, and for the for mynieces, you know, they're all
about their grandmother.
So I mean, they like and theythey love me too.
So I mean when two people thatyou love are getting along
again, I think that makes iteasier.
SPEAKER_03 (43:49):
Right.
Um, this is one of the firstlike reconnection episodes that
I've done.
It's been also awkward becauseI'm kind of involved in the
situation.
So um I really don't know whatelse to say.
I mean, it's kind of like anin-progress thing.
You know?
SPEAKER_05 (44:09):
Yeah, we'll keep you posted.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:12):
I guess.
Uh, one day at a time, life inthe moment.
I have one more question to askyou.
And you might hate me.
Did you want to talk about key?
SPEAKER_05 (44:31):
That's um that's not the easiest thing to talk about
for me.
SPEAKER_02 (44:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (44:45):
So we've talked quite a bit about my sister
Elle, um, who's my older sister,my younger sister, Key.
Um her and I were were alwaysvery, very close when we were
children.
And I think like the first timethat you interviewed me, you
(45:06):
know, I talked about she's kindof like a terrible person.
Which in a lot of ways she is.
Um I've come to realize thatthese are not things that are
her fault.
She's a person who's got her ownstruggles, which I won't get
(45:26):
into just for the sake ofrespecting her privacy.
SPEAKER_02 (45:29):
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (45:31):
Um, a lot of these things that she struggles with,
I think, make any possibility ofa relationship moving forward
extremely unlikely, if notimpossible.
That being said, um she's aperson who's frequently on my
(45:54):
mind.
I do love my sister very much.
SPEAKER_04 (45:59):
And um I wish that the situation could be
different.
SPEAKER_05 (46:10):
And this is one thing where I kind of hate the
limitations of owning my own endof things because I don't know
what, if anything, I could dodifferently to make that
relationship a possibility.
SPEAKER_02 (46:28):
Have you thought about talking to her?
SPEAKER_05 (46:34):
Yeah, I've thought about it.
I've thought about what thatconversation might look like.
I thought about what even tryingto set up that conversation
might look like.
But um all across the board,that just falls into the
category of I don't know.
Just don't know how to make ithappen, and I don't know what
(46:56):
exactly it would look like.
SPEAKER_03 (46:59):
Okay, so I guess this would be my below the belt
question because this is aquestion you asked me uh for my
interview, but I think it'srelevant and I think it's
important, and I think this issomething that might become
habit on my show.
So um if she were sitting here,what would you want to say to
(47:23):
her?
SPEAKER_04 (47:26):
First of all, I'm sorry.
I can't even begin tocommunicate how sorry I am for
not showing you theunderstanding that you deserved.
I'm sorry that I couldn'tprotect you from whatever it was
(47:52):
that life threw at you that youprobably expected that your big
brother would protect you from.
I'm sorry that I didn't pull myhead out of my ass sooner.
SPEAKER_05 (48:12):
Because if I had if I'd recognized certain things
about myself a little bitsooner, I might have recognized
that, you know, these wereshared characteristics between
you and I.
And I might have been able toencourage you to get the help
that I found.
And even if you hadn't gottenthe help, maybe I would have had
(48:36):
enough understanding to justaccept you for who you are, and
recognize that there's certainthings that you were never going
to be able to handle, and Icould have figured out how to
navigate around that.
SPEAKER_04 (48:48):
Most importantly, though, I would tell her I love
you.
I love you no matter what.
And even if we never see eachother again, you're always gonna
be my sister.
(49:10):
And if you ever need your bigbrother, I'm here for you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:16):
Can you share a memory that reflects the
relationship that you had withyour sister?
Key.
SPEAKER_05 (49:29):
Every Sunday after church, the first thing we would
do is we would get out of thefamily station wagon, still in
our Sunday finest, and I wouldrun to the side of the house and
grab my big wheel.
SPEAKER_04 (49:44):
And I would ride it down the driveway, and then Key
would stand on the back and puther little hands on my
shoulders, and we go tearing offdown the road.
SPEAKER_05 (49:59):
And that was pretty much how early childhood was.
It was always just the two of usinseparable, like 100% of the
time.
The following is a Kingfisher Studios podcast.
(00:07):
Thanks for listening to When theBow Breaks.
This is Alexis Arlen.
Today I'm with AC Fisher fromTurn Up the AC Podcast and
Kingfisher Studios.
So you've been busy the past fewmonths with your podcasting.
SPEAKER_05 (00:25):
I've been very busy, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (00:27):
Yes.
So for those of you who don'tknow, I know this guy.
I've known him since I think thefirst episode, which was called
Why Can't We All Just Get Along?
So you've been busy with yourpodcasts.
I I would really like for you toexplain what your podcast is and
talk about it before we get intothe update because that's
(00:50):
something fun and cool that'sbeen happening during this whole
time.
So I want to kind of start withthat.
SPEAKER_05 (00:55):
I get put on the hot seat a lot with questions about
my podcast.
And the most common one is justa really simple one, which is
what is your podcast about?
And I'm never really sureexactly how to answer that.
Because basically what I do is Ithink back on situations from my
past, or I think oninspirational quotes, and I sort
(01:17):
of just unpack my emotions, mypersonal philosophies, and
sometimes just like simplememories.
Um, in in an effort to letpeople inside of my head and see
what makes me tick.
It's really just an exercise inbearing all of me to anybody
who's interested in listening.
SPEAKER_03 (01:37):
Yeah, so I've listened to it.
I've listened to every episode.
SPEAKER_05 (01:41):
I should hope so.
SPEAKER_03 (01:44):
Uh I actually have an episode on your show as well.
That I pitched that myself.
Uh no, but uh let's give that ashameless plug.
SPEAKER_05 (01:52):
The episode is called Where is My Shade and
It's Wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (01:56):
Yeah, so just yeah, if you have time, listen to it.
SPEAKER_05 (01:59):
Make the time or I'll cut you.
SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
So you've been busy with that, and it I've listened
to it, and it's almost kind oflike a biographical type of
podcast, I feel.
It's stories about your life, oryou give insights or your
thoughts on people that um whoinspire you.
SPEAKER_05 (02:20):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (02:21):
I feel like all the good stuff is in this podcast.
SPEAKER_05 (02:25):
I like to think so.
I mean, my latest episode at thetime of recording is not yet
released, but this sort of goesinto a little bit of the not
pretty side of me.
But um all in all, I I like tothink that you know people that
listen to it are gonna walk awaywith kind of a good feeling and
maybe some introspectivethoughts of their own.
SPEAKER_03 (02:46):
So, what inspired you to do this podcast, this new
one, Turn Up the AC?
SPEAKER_05 (02:53):
For a couple of years, my brother Jason Moore
and I, uh, I'll give him ashameless plug from the Podverse
podcast.
Um, we used to do uh a showcalled The Missionary Position,
and for the longest time I wasfeeling creatively stifled
because I always had somebody toanswer to, and I I had it in my
(03:14):
head that okay, I've got a lotof these like thoughts in my
head that need to come out.
I can't keep answering to aco-host, I need my own platform
where it's just me, I answer tonobody, and um I had started
conceptualizing turn up the AC,which was sort of intended as a
play on my name, AC Fisher,whereas you know, like turn me
(03:36):
up in the sense of like I wasjust gonna go on these mad rants
and tangents and just reallyexplode into the mic, but I just
couldn't seem to get anythingtogether that I thought anybody
was gonna listen to.
So I put the title on the backburner, and um you actually had
(03:57):
been encouraging me to do somewriting, and I'm not really a
writer so much as a talker.
So I started writing with theintention of recording these
thoughts, and one night afteryou'd gone to sleep, I started
writing, then I recorded whatI'd written, and I think by the
(04:17):
time the world woke up the nextmorning, I had launched Turn Up
the AC, and it was as much asurprise to me as it was to
anybody else.
SPEAKER_03 (04:26):
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I remember that.
SPEAKER_05 (04:31):
So I guess at the end of the day, you're
responsible for Turn Up the AC.
SPEAKER_03 (04:37):
I wouldn't say that.
Uh I don't think I could havelaunched a podcast overnight
like that.
I think the whole the wholething, I think you have.
But anyway, uh this podcast isreally cool.
So aside from the podcast, uh,what's the real reason why you
and I are talking again on myshow?
SPEAKER_05 (04:59):
Let's talk mother issues.
You know, like that that that'swhere we started.
I think our very firstconversation was you
interviewing me about my at thetime estranged mother.
And uh we we talked about avariety of complicated family
issues and difficult background.
We had a lot of common ground,but um, some things have changed
(05:22):
since that conversation a littlebit over a year ago.
SPEAKER_03 (05:26):
So between you and your mother, how have things
changed?
SPEAKER_05 (05:32):
We're talking now.
SPEAKER_03 (05:35):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (05:37):
I guess I I guess that's the biggest change.
SPEAKER_03 (05:39):
Uh-huh.
And how do these conversationsgo, would you say?
How often do you see yourmother, for example?
SPEAKER_05 (05:47):
Probably a little bit more often than I'd like to.
Um I I see her at least once aweek these days.
SPEAKER_03 (05:53):
Yeah.
I'd say that's about average,yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (05:57):
Yeah, I mean, more is changed than just us actually
seeing each other.
SPEAKER_03 (06:01):
Um so backing up just a little bit, what made you
just how did this happen?
First of all, how did you starttalking to your mother again?
Was it her?
Was it you who initiatedcontact?
Was there a go-between?
SPEAKER_05 (06:17):
It was a combination of things.
So my my sister Elle, who wementioned the last time we
talked on this show, had beenneedling me for probably about a
year and a half, saying, youknow, like mom's different now,
she's changed.
Um, I think you're ready to talkto her, things like that.
And you know, like, don't youlove her?
(06:37):
Isn't there like some way youcan put things aside, blah,
blah, blah?
And presumably she was workingon my mom in the same way at the
same time.
But I I wasn't really feelingready for the longest time.
And um I guess to to cut out awhole lot of boring detail,
really, like what the breakingpoint for me was in conversing
(07:00):
with with my sister was she hadpointed out to me that, like,
look, even if mom is the exactsame person that you last spoke
to, you're not the same personas you were then.
You've gone through a lot ofchanges.
You've taken the time to reflectand work on the things that
weren't really super nice aboutyou.
(07:21):
You don't react in the sameways, you've gotten help for
your mental health issues, youknow, like all kinds of things
had changed over the six or soyears that I didn't speak to my
mother.
So I guess I realized that mysister had a point that even if
my mother was just a horriblemonster, if I were to see her,
the risk of me actually likehaving a strong reaction or
(07:44):
taking any real offense wasfairly small.
SPEAKER_03 (07:48):
So what happened on that day?
What were some of the questionsthat you had the day that you
met up with your mom again?
SPEAKER_05 (07:57):
Like before meeting her, you mean?
SPEAKER_03 (07:58):
Yeah, like for example, in the car on the way
there.
What was going through yourmind?
SPEAKER_05 (08:05):
Honestly, like the car ride over is a bit of a blur
looking back on it.
I remember in general thequestions I had leading up to
the meeting, you know, like I Ididn't feel comfortable going
alone.
So I'd wanted somebody to bewith me, and I think I kind of
caught you off guard by first ofall announcing that I was ready
(08:28):
to see my mother and that it wasbasically happening like really,
really soon.
Like I don't know if it was likethat day or the next day, but I
remember your jaw sort ofhitting the floor, and then
especially so when I said, like,I didn't think I could go
without you.
But you know, the the the thequestions that I had, I think
that's what you were askingabout, were I don't know if it
(08:51):
was specific questions, so muchas me just wondering, you know,
like first of all, like what'sshe gonna look like?
I haven't seen the woman in likesix years, and like she's in her
70s, so you know, a face can gothrough a lot of changes over
the course of a few years inthat age group.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_05 (09:07):
I didn't know, like, am I gonna have any feelings
towards her at all?
Because after the initialestrangement, I'd had to grieve
her loss as though she had died.
I had learned to live my lifewithout her in it.
I had cried all of my tears.
(09:28):
I had, you know, restructured mysocial life in a way that no
longer accommodated her, andtruthfully, I didn't really need
her, and I wasn't even sure if Iwanted her.
So my my biggest concern,honestly, was that like there
was just gonna be nothing there,and I was I don't know, gonna
(09:53):
find myself in a confusingsituation.
SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
Yeah, so I remember there was like it was a long
enough car ride to have, youknow, ask yourself those
questions.
It was a long enough car ride tohave some anxieties about it
going terribly wrong, you know,and then it was also about like
savor the time because you neverknow if it's going to happen
again.
SPEAKER_05 (10:15):
Right.
So we get out of the car, we Iremember we drove to her place,
which was a bit weird in itselfbecause I actually had to get
directions to my mother's house.
I didn't even know where shelived.
SPEAKER_03 (10:27):
Yeah.
So yeah, I think we made a wrongturn once, I think.
SPEAKER_05 (10:32):
Yeah, and I almost decided to not go through with
the visit just because thatwrong turn just felt like a good
excuse.
SPEAKER_03 (10:40):
Yeah, you were on the edge of it.
I remember I was like, wow, whatan adventure, and I'm along for
the ride.
That was really how I wasfeeling.
I really did not know how it wasgoing to play out.
So we get there and you know,maybe tell me just a little bit
about that.
SPEAKER_05 (10:59):
Oh my god, was that ever awkward?
SPEAKER_03 (11:03):
Oh, that was awkward for a number of reasons.
SPEAKER_05 (11:05):
You know, because we I I remember knocking on the
door and hearing that familiarvoice saying, Um, come in.
I think the door was actuallyopen partially at least.
And um there was like a mosquitonet or a curtain or something
covering the door, so it wassort of like it was translucent.
(11:26):
I could see her, but not really.
SPEAKER_03 (11:28):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (11:29):
She was kind of like out of focus, laying on the
couch.
And um honestly, like putting myeyes on her for the first time
in that many years was kind of asurreal experience.
It wasn't like, oh my god,there's my mummy.
It was just a case of, huh, Ican't believe we're actually
(11:52):
this close to each other.
Like I really emotionally wasn'tsure what to do with it.
I don't remember exactly whereyou were in relation to me.
I remember, like, I don't know,in that moment, my biggest
concern was how is she going tobe able to digest the fact that
(12:14):
I'm showing up with you when thelast time she saw me, you know,
it was me and my ex-wife weretogether.
And presumably, so far as sheimagined me, it was still me and
my ex-wife, and here I am withthis new woman after seeing her
son for the first time in likesix years.
SPEAKER_03 (12:33):
Yeah, it definitely wasn't the position I'd ever
been in.
SPEAKER_05 (12:36):
So it's not the best way to meet the mother.
SPEAKER_03 (12:40):
Yeah.
So it yeah, so that was awkward.
I feel like it was awkward forme too, a little bit because of
everything that you told meabout your mother, like the
good, the bad, you know, all ofthat.
And I I did have a worry thatlike I was going to have to, I
didn't know for sure if I wouldshould wear armor or if I should
(13:02):
bring like a bouquet, or youknow, like really I didn't know.
SPEAKER_05 (13:06):
And so she's a difficult person to to to
prepare for, even when you knowher, because I mean, like, yeah,
she's a very colorful person.
And like to be totally fair toher, that's an understatement.
I I don't know if she like everis intentionally an asshole with
people, or if this is justsomething that she trips into
(13:29):
and she's as surprised asanybody else.
Like, she's a she's a funny,quirky, eccentric loon, really.
SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
Who has all her faculties.
SPEAKER_05 (13:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (13:43):
Yeah.
Sorry, I had to.
SPEAKER_05 (13:46):
That was a bit of an insider joke.
SPEAKER_03 (13:48):
It was a combination of that was a recent joke.
But um so Met Mom again.
Then after that, it seemed likea whole string of like important
like milestones, I guess, if ifyou will, for you and I
personally, um, together werehappening.
So there was more family events,and it was more okay that you
(14:10):
guys were in the same roomtogether, and that it, you know,
there was not really anyconflict.
Has there been very muchconflict with you guys?
You know, I know you guys didn'talways agree.
SPEAKER_05 (14:21):
Well, we still don't always agree.
Um I I I have to say that likeit's not your typical mother-son
relationship, but I can't saythat it's a bad relationship.
SPEAKER_03 (14:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (14:35):
Um the the first couple of interactions that we
had after reconnecting,honestly, I felt like it was
something that I was doing formy sister because I knew that it
really troubled her that my momand I weren't in communication.
I felt like it was somethingthat I was doing for my kids
(14:55):
because they had been deprivedof the opportunity of having a
grandmother for this many years.
And I even felt like, you know,it was something I was doing for
my mom because I mean, she wasold and like I'm a parent, I get
it.
I know how like whether or notyour kids think you're doing a
good job, you still love them,and you can't turn that off,
(15:16):
even if they think you have.
And I thought, like, it costs menothing to put myself in this
situation, it really doesn't,but there's so many people that
potentially benefit from it.
I wasn't gonna be an obstacle toanybody else's happiness.
SPEAKER_03 (15:34):
I see.
So it's been how many months nowsince you've had contact with
your mom again?
SPEAKER_05 (15:41):
I think it was like tail end of summer, right?
SPEAKER_03 (15:42):
Like six months about.
SPEAKER_05 (15:45):
Yeah, something like that.
It was about six months.
SPEAKER_03 (15:47):
So six months.
In the last six months, how howwould you sum up the last six
months regarding you and yourmom?
SPEAKER_05 (16:02):
I feel like I've actually gotten to know her for
the first time in my life, andmore importantly, I feel like
she's gotten to know me.
Because the the theme of megrowing up was really centered
around her believing that sheknew me better than I knew me,
(16:22):
which was always really hard todigest.
Um, coming back to my podcast,there was a lot of stuff I
wasn't really sure how tocommunicate directly to my mom
because I didn't know how tohave the conversations, and I
knew that I wanted to spend timewith her just again to like make
it easier for everybody aroundus and and to make it easier for
(16:45):
her too.
Just like me spending the timethere I knew made my sister feel
good.
I know it made my kids feelgood, I know it made my mom feel
good.
I was still feeling a whole lotof nothing through this time,
and I wasn't really sure how tolike have certain conversations
because I mean her life iscentered around her faith.
My life does not involve a faithelement, and there's a lot of
(17:10):
trauma that I associate with herreligion.
So, I mean, how do you have ameaningful conversation with
somebody when the only depththat they can find is in matters
of faith?
SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (17:26):
So I didn't want to end up sitting across the table
from her having a bunch of how'sthe weather conversations.
I didn't want to get into familygossip or any of that nonsense.
But I thought, like, hey, ifshe's gonna ask me what have you
been up to, I'm not gonna say,well, you know, I painted
another apartment today.
Like, who cares?
I paint day in and day out,nothing new at work.
SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (17:49):
She doesn't know my friends, she doesn't know I
guess the cultural referencesthat I might make about the
things that interest me.
But I thought, like, I do thispodcast, I'll just let her hear
some episodes, and I startedplaying her some, and I think
the first one I played her wasan episode, an episode called
(18:10):
Luba, where I talk about myfirst love.
And, you know, my mom was thereto see that whole relationship
play out, but there were so manydetails she was unaware of, she
had no idea.
And I remember her listening tothat episode and openly weeping
and telling me, you know, howbeautiful it was, and
(18:32):
apologizing for, you know, notunderstanding or not seeing
certain things, and then sheasked if she could hear another
one.
So I played her, I think, six orseven episodes during that
visit, and at the end of it, youknow, she was just sort of like
staring at me in amazement,telling me what a beautiful man
(18:53):
I was, and how um she didn'tdeserve to identify as my mother
because I was something that wasmuch better than she could have
raised.
She felt like I was the personthat I was because of me,
(19:16):
because of something that didn'tinvolve her.
She felt like I had turned intome in spite of her, not because
of her, which was a bit of abreaking point for me too,
because I had to tell her that,like, look, you didn't fuck up
all across the board.
I am who I am because of you.
(19:37):
Which, you know, that started towake up the first little bit of
emotion I had toward the womanbecause even just parents to
parent, even if it's not a caseof me thinking, hey, I love you,
mom, I can empathize withanother parent who's struggling
with stuff, right?
Like we all I think we havethose days where You know, we
(20:01):
think we've done everythingwrong, but even despite all the
things we do wrong, weaccidentally do the right thing
sometimes too, and my mom was noexception.
SPEAKER_03 (20:12):
So she said that she felt she didn't deserve to be
called your mother.
Did she ever talk about thingsthat she felt sorry for?
Did she ever apologize to youfor anything?
SPEAKER_05 (20:27):
God, she apologized for everything.
Like I don't know if it was inthat conversation, but I mean we
had a series of goodconversations because I think
like the first few visits I'dmade sure that I'd had you with
me, or that my sister was there,or that I brought my son with
me.
Just so that I would havesomebody to run interference
(20:50):
between her and I.
But then I I decided that youknow I'm gonna have to sooner or
later spend a little bit of timeone-on-one with the woman.
Yeah.
So I I started doing that, andit's it's interesting how things
come up because it's like it'snot like she said, Hey son, come
over.
I need to like tell you somethings.
(21:10):
It would be a case of like herand I are having a cup of tea
and just telling stories aboutour pasts, you know, like not
our shared past, but she wouldtell me stories about when she
was young, I would tell herthings that she wasn't
previously aware of.
And once in a while, somethingwould just spark something in
(21:33):
either her or in I where it wasa case of look, there's
something to make right here,there's something to
acknowledge, you know.
She apologized for never havingbeen approachable.
SPEAKER_03 (21:42):
Uh-huh.
And that was different.
SPEAKER_05 (21:46):
Yeah, surprisingly different, honestly, because my
mom has never been anapproachable person on any level
in any context at any time.
And when I go to visit her now,the woman that I find sitting
across from me is usually quiteapproachable.
She doesn't always understandwhat's being brought to her, but
(22:10):
she does take the time toactually hear me out.
SPEAKER_03 (22:14):
I would say that that's the person that I know.
I don't see her asunapproachable.
I see her as maybe hard tofigure out sometimes.
SPEAKER_04 (22:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (22:25):
But I would not say unapproachable.
In fact, and I don't know ifshe's just this way with me,
because I've seen her behavethis way towards other people
too.
She'll she'll basically have youcome in and she'll be like, So,
how are you?
Without all the crap, basically.
Like, like cut the crap, likeget to the really important
(22:46):
things that matter, like what'sgoing on in the world.
SPEAKER_05 (22:48):
No, she asks, How are you doing with the
expectation that you're going togive an honest answer?
SPEAKER_03 (22:52):
Yeah, yeah.
And if you don't, she'll ask youother questions.
She might even make fun of youas you're trying to like, you
know, roll your answer out ofyour tongue in a way that she
can understand.
So it's actually really fun,like talking to her and stuff,
um, getting to know her andeverything, and there are
definitely like somesimilarities.
But what was some other thingsthat you found was different
(23:14):
from the time before you beforeyou uh spoke or during your
estrangement until you startedtalking again?
Like what was different beforeand after?
SPEAKER_05 (23:25):
Um I'm gonna own my shit up front.
Before I was a very reactiveperson and I took offense very
easily.
Um, I think that everyconversation that her and I
entered into, I was carrying theweight of every conversation
that had come before it with me.
(23:49):
So any small misstepconversationally, she was in the
hot seat for like everyconversation that we'd ever had
before.
And I would be reacting to alifetime of nonsense.
Now, you know, if there's amisstep conversationally, it's
(24:09):
kept within the context of thatconversation.
If I'm misunderstandingsomething, like first of all,
I'm not gonna react.
I'm gonna say, can you explainwhat you mean by that?
I don't assume that I know whatshe means by things.
You know, I try to take thatapproach all across the board.
So I mean, it's not somethingspecial that I put on for my
mom.
(24:30):
I know, like, I'd mentioned thislike in our first interview a
year or so ago, that you know,one of my central philosophies
that I've adopted is thatoffense is taken, it's not
given.
And a lot of people, I think,misinterpret that to mean that
I've given myself license justto be a jerk.
But it it's very much a two-waystreet.
(24:52):
I have to understand that myoffense is taken, it's not given
to me by another party.
You've actually called me out onthat a couple of times.
So, like, I'm not perfect in theapplication of it.
But, you know, like when I'mwhen I'm dealing with my mom,
I've I've always got to likeweigh out now how much my own
(25:14):
emotional state, how my bloodsugar, you know, how my level of
r rest is factoring into theconversation.
I I did I never did that before.
It was a case of okay, I'm alittle punchy, she should have
noticed and tread a little bitmore lightly around me.
SPEAKER_03 (25:30):
Um, it's kind of like that mental body scan that
you do to see, hey, how am Iactually doing?
But like you're doing it in themoment.
SPEAKER_05 (25:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (25:39):
So I I guess like I I don't know like how much it's
fair to say, oh, she's reallychanged, because I mean, like,
all of us to a certain degree,we're gonna reflect the person
that's sitting across from us.
And um, I think I'm definitelybringing a different person and
a different set of variables tothe table than I did before.
(26:02):
Um, I'd like to think I make iteasier for her, but I have to
also acknowledge that shecertainly makes it easier for me
these days.
There are times where I knowthat she really would like to
say something, but she knowsthat it would be inappropriate
and that I wouldn't understandor agree, and that there's a
strong likelihood that you knowit's gonna cause conflict, and
(26:25):
she dials herself back.
So, I mean, I guess both of ushave learned to self-regulate a
little better.
SPEAKER_03 (26:32):
Yeah.
I've heard her apologize inadvance for anything, like if
she's about to tell a story orsomething, she'll apologize in
advance.
Sorry if this bothers you, butthis is what happened, and you
know, stop me, you know,basically, but in a nutshell.
But um, she's a much moreeloquent speaker than I am.
(26:55):
But uh, but yeah, I I Idefinitely say that she's
certainly not the person thatyou described that you once
knew.
SPEAKER_05 (27:04):
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Like I I have to give hercredit.
I mean, she has gone throughsome serious changes.
She does put in a lot of effort,and while I still struggle to
conjure up any meaningful levelof emotional bond for her, I
have to say, in all honesty,that I really do like the woman.
SPEAKER_03 (27:26):
That was something that was funny.
Uh, if it's okay if I sharethis, you know, I asked him,
like, what do you how do youfeel about your mother?
You know, because I'm like allempathic and I'm all about my
emotions and other people'semotions and feelings, right?
So I'm like, oh, how do youfeel?
And he's like, I don't reallyfeel one way or another.
(27:47):
It's just like, whatever.
You know, you know, and and thatwas a bit odd to me, but if I
were in that position, I can'tsay that, yeah, I'd be like, oh,
mommy, or you know, that I'dwant to like just bury them
because I don't think I'd wantto go near them if I felt that
way.
So I guess, you know, if I werein the same situation, I'd feel
(28:07):
better.
SPEAKER_05 (28:08):
But in a way, I kind of did bury my mother, and what
I got instead was I made aninteresting new friend.
SPEAKER_03 (28:14):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_05 (28:18):
Which is I call her mom.
SPEAKER_03 (28:21):
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
So what have you learned in thetime that you've been away from
your mother?
SPEAKER_05 (28:31):
That working on self is the most important thing that
any of us can do.
With any strained relationship,worrying about all the misstep
steps that the other people havetaken is wholly irrelevant.
I know this is something that'sgoing to really bother a lot of
people because I know theaudience of this show for sure,
a lot of you are dealing withestrangement, and a lot of you
(28:53):
are looking at that one familymember and thinking, no, no, my
story's different.
Well, your story's notdifferent.
I don't care how extreme it is,I don't care how much of a jerk
your estranged family member ormembers are, you still got to
work on you.
And looking at my own situation,there's a lot of horrible things
(29:16):
that have been said and donethat can't be unsaid or undone.
But I try to take these memoriesand these experiences in the
context of the fact that we allmess up sometimes.
Sometimes we mess upconsistently for years and
years.
(29:37):
But um, like I talked about onmy show, I can't remember what
the episode was, is basicallysaying that like everybody's got
a story.
We all have these things thatmotivate us or compel us to act
certain ways or say certainthings or do certain things, and
we're all very well justified inevery moment of our lives.
(29:57):
Maybe in retrospect, thatjustification doesn't hold up,
but in the moment, that's wherelife is lived.
So if we don't want to bedefined by our past and we don't
want to be on the hook for everymisstep we've ever taken, it
would be hugely hypocritical ofany of us to hold anybody else
(30:19):
on the hook for the misstepsthat they've taken.
SPEAKER_03 (30:23):
Right.
I I find that sometimes livingin the moment when all you have
is a history with someone can bevery, very difficult.
But like you said, you just kindof do things slowly, like one
visit at a time.
SPEAKER_05 (30:39):
That's all you can do.
SPEAKER_03 (30:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (30:41):
I mean, like somebody told me years ago that
expectations lead todisappointment, and I thought at
the time, like, what a ugly wayto look at the world.
But I I think that there is somemerit to it.
I mean, if you go into asituation with no expectations,
you really can't bedisappointed.
You know.
Um The other thing I wanted tosay to like to anybody who's
(31:07):
like thinking about likeestranged family members, like
tying into what I was sayingabout everybody being justified
in the moment, is that a lot ofthe time we make unfair
assumptions because we think weknow the other person really
really well, and we think thatwe can get inside their heads
(31:27):
and we can answer why they werethat way or why they said
certain things or what actuallymotivated them, which is kind of
not fair.
Doesn't matter how much wedislike somebody or how much
they've hurt us, we can't assumethat we know all of these
things, and we can't react tothe situation based on our
(31:48):
knee-jerk assumptions.
We have to take things as theycome, we have to be open-minded.
And I know how hard that isbecause you know it's something
that I have to force myself todo as well.
SPEAKER_03 (32:02):
So just for fun, can you share something funny or
like a good memory that you'vehad with your mom since
reconnecting with her?
SPEAKER_05 (32:15):
Well, it's not funny.
It was sort of like profound forfor me.
Um just before Christmas, I wasreally sweating about a gift
that I had gotten for oneparticular person because it
seemed like every time I hadmanaged to get the right gift, I
(32:37):
would hear from somebody else inour shared circle that, oh, I
got this for so-and-so, and Iwas thinking, damn it, like now
I gotta go return what I got.
And budget was really tight thispast Christmas, so my my options
were kind of limited, and Ireally wasn't sure what to do.
It was like it seemed like onething after another, and then I
was at the end of my options,and I had very little money and
(33:02):
no gift, and Christmas wasliterally like right around the
corner, and I didn't know whatto do, and I don't know why, but
I thought to phone my mom andask her for help, which is not a
phone call that I would haveexpected to feel motivated
toward.
But I picked up the phone, I'mlike, hey mom, I got the
(33:24):
situation, and she's like, Don'tworry, come pick me up.
I know exactly what to do.
And we went out and we did aspot of Christmas shopping
together.
We got things done, and I thinkfrom the time I picked her up to
the time like I had the giftpurchased and wrapped and ready
to go was less than an hour, andthen we ended up spending the
(33:46):
entire day together just talkingabout everything and nothing,
and we had a wonderful daytogether.
I don't know that it's a nicehappy ending.
There's a lot of there's a lotof conflict like internally with
me.
SPEAKER_03 (34:00):
Yeah.
So what are you what are some ofyour internal conflicts that you
have going on right now asyou're you know reconnecting
with your mom?
SPEAKER_05 (34:08):
Well, there's the ongoing insecurity, like you
know, like how long is thisgonna last?
SPEAKER_03 (34:13):
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (34:15):
Have things really changed?
SPEAKER_03 (34:17):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_05 (34:18):
You know, like if something happens, you know, the
kind of stuff that happens whenany two people try to relate to
each other.
Conflict is part of the game.
You cannot avoid it.
But are we gonna be able toweather the storm if there is a
serious disagreement?
Like we've had a couple of likesmall things come up, but
they've been resolved fairlyquickly.
(34:41):
But I don't know if we relate toeach other effectively enough
where if something big came upthat we could get over it.
And I worry that if somethingwere to happen that would leave
me separated from my motheragain, like I don't know
emotionally what frame of mindthat would put me in.
(35:04):
Because it was one of the thingsthat had made me hesitant to
reconnect with her initially,was that I didn't know if I
could handle losing her a secondtime.
SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
Right.
SPEAKER_05 (35:15):
But now, like kind of reconnecting with her, I'm
not like connecting with thatsame person, so I don't know if
losing her would be the same aslosing my mom a second time.
That worries me too, that I'mjust dealing with something that
is so unknown.
SPEAKER_03 (35:30):
Yeah.
Do you have any regrets aboutthe time spent apart from her or
how it ended, or is thereanything that you wish you could
change or that you could havedone over the I wish that um
(35:53):
that final conversation that herand I had, the one that set
these six years of separation inmotion.
SPEAKER_05 (36:04):
I wish that I had been more in touch with myself
at that time.
Because if I had been, if I'dbeen more in touch, more I guess
more like I am now, I would haverealized things about me like,
first of all, I struggle withmental illness challenges.
I didn't at the time understandthat I was suffering with
(36:27):
general anxiety and panicdisorder and PTSD and like all
these other things.
SPEAKER_03 (36:33):
Before you were a strange.
SPEAKER_05 (36:34):
Before.
SPEAKER_03 (36:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (36:35):
I didn't realize that a lot of these issues I had
had inherited from my mother.
So there was no way to realizethat there were two mentally ill
people engaging into a heatedconversation that was going to
end very badly.
I'd like to think that if one ofus had had our shit together
back then, it wouldn't haveplayed out that way.
(36:56):
And I don't sit there wishing,well, I wish that you, Mom, had
had your shit together.
I I wish that it had been me,because once I started working
on me, I realized that like it'snot really like this big
overwhelming task.
I mean, it's not like you canflick a switch and then
(37:19):
magically you're okay, but Imean, every day comes with a
series of decisions, and there'sa series of things you can do or
you can avoid doing.
And it's not like I'm a personaldevelopment guru, I'm still kind
of like a messed up person in alot of ways.
SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (37:37):
But all of the things I've accomplished as far
as like working on me, each ofthe little pieces has been real
easy.
SPEAKER_03 (37:48):
So what would you say to someone who is thinking
about reconnecting with thatperson in their life who they
haven't spoken with for a longtime?
That person that they both loveand also maybe can't stand, or
that person who hurt themterribly.
(38:10):
But you still love them enoughto want something out of the
relationship.
What would you say to thatperson who's considering that?
SPEAKER_05 (38:22):
That's not the simplest thing to answer.
Um there's a few factors at playhere.
Um the first thing I would wantthe person to answer for
themselves is are you ready?
Emotionally, are you ready?
Which I know from experienceisn't the easiest thing.
(38:47):
You know, another question toask yourself is like what's
motivating you towards thispotential reconnection?
You know, are you going inbecause oh, so and so is getting
older, or we don't know, youknow, with what's gonna happen
with everybody's health.
Am I gonna miss a window ofopportunity here?
(39:08):
Like, I don't I think as much asthese are compelling reasons to
try to reconnect, I don't knowthat they're like really the
most valuable reasons.
I think unless there issomething in you that needs to
reconnect with this person, itmight not be the best time, you
know.
(39:28):
And I would say to anybody whois expecting to get something
from the other person, you'regonna have to figure out how to
get over that before you eventhink about reconnecting because
you can't place any expectationson another person to give you
something that you need.
You can't hold them accountable,put them on the hot seat, or
(39:50):
make them answer for theircrimes.
SPEAKER_03 (39:52):
Right.
It's just like setting yourselfup for more loss.
SPEAKER_05 (39:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (39:57):
Yeah, like like you said, you gotta live.
In the moment.
You can't live like there'sanything that's left that's
owed.
SPEAKER_05 (40:04):
Yeah, and and really I think instead of considering
what the other person isbringing to the situation,
probably spend as much time asyou possibly can figuring out
what it is that you're bringingto the situation.
Try to put everything back onyourself.
And like I'm not saying thatlike you ignore the fact that
other people have fucked up.
You don't ignore the fact thatyou know you've been hurt
(40:27):
because of their words oractions.
Sure.
But it's not on you to holdanybody personally responsible.
That's on them to own theirshit.
It's on you to own your own.
SPEAKER_03 (40:39):
Right.
Do you feel like your mom is acompletely different person than
she was before?
SPEAKER_05 (40:45):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (40:47):
Because I find that there are certain I feel like
how you described her to me wasalmost like to a T, except for
her being unapproachable.
SPEAKER_05 (41:02):
Yeah, like it I can't say that she hasn't
changed, but she's not adifferent person.
Not by any stretch of theimagination.
SPEAKER_03 (41:10):
She's still her.
SPEAKER_05 (41:11):
Yeah.
And I I think like the biggestchange is in um the way I look
at her.
I did a whole episode about itactually called Verbs, where I
realized that, you know, like Ihad sort of typecast my mom into
the role of being whatever thisnegative combination of things
(41:33):
was.
I wasn't allowing her the roomto like move and shake and you
know flow and do whatever it isthat normal people do.
Like I guess I've allowed her tojust be her without like a whole
lot of stuff riding on it.
SPEAKER_03 (41:48):
Uh-huh.
Has your reconnection with yourmom affected the family in any
kind of way?
SPEAKER_05 (41:57):
Again, I don't know like exactly how to answer that.
I like I've I've talked to acouple of different people in
the family about it.
Like my sister Elle, I thinkshe's probably the most affected
because she's the one who's gotthe big house, she's the one
that likes to do entertainingduring the holiday season and
things like that.
So like when we createreconnected at the tail in the
(42:20):
summer, the first thing out ofher mouth was, Oh, this is
awesome.
Now like I don't have to worryabout who to invite at Christmas
time.
Everybody can show up.
SPEAKER_03 (42:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (42:30):
You know, it was a big thing for her.
She likes the fact that like ifshe's out for coffee with our
mother, you know, and iPhone herand say, Hey, do you want to get
together for coffee?
She doesn't have to like ditchour mom to come hang out with
me.
She just say, Look, I got mom inthe car, we'll be there in 15
minutes, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (42:47):
Um, like talking to my younger son, who's 12 now.
Um I think it's a he's got a bitof a relief because he is very,
very loyal to me.
And I think for a long time,like he was afraid to
(43:09):
acknowledge the fact that hemissed his grandmother and he
wanted to see her.
To him, he always played it offlike, oh, it's no big deal, no,
I don't miss her, this, that,and the other thing.
But now that she is an optionthat's on the table, now he says
things like, I'm really, reallyhappy to have Nana back in my
life.
I really missed her.
It was difficult for me, youknow, knowing that you and her
(43:31):
weren't getting along.
You know, and for the for mynieces, you know, they're all
about their grandmother.
So I mean, they like and theythey love me too.
So I mean when two people thatyou love are getting along
again, I think that makes iteasier.
SPEAKER_03 (43:49):
Right.
Um, this is one of the firstlike reconnection episodes that
I've done.
It's been also awkward becauseI'm kind of involved in the
situation.
So um I really don't know whatelse to say.
I mean, it's kind of like anin-progress thing.
You know?
SPEAKER_05 (44:09):
Yeah, we'll keep you posted.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:12):
I guess.
Uh, one day at a time, life inthe moment.
I have one more question to askyou.
And you might hate me.
Did you want to talk about key?
SPEAKER_05 (44:31):
That's um that's not the easiest thing to talk about
for me.
SPEAKER_02 (44:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05 (44:45):
So we've talked quite a bit about my sister
Elle, um, who's my older sister,my younger sister, Key.
Um her and I were were alwaysvery, very close when we were
children.
And I think like the first timethat you interviewed me, you
(45:06):
know, I talked about she's kindof like a terrible person.
Which in a lot of ways she is.
Um I've come to realize thatthese are not things that are
her fault.
She's a person who's got her ownstruggles, which I won't get
(45:26):
into just for the sake ofrespecting her privacy.
SPEAKER_02 (45:29):
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (45:31):
Um, a lot of these things that she struggles with,
I think, make any possibility ofa relationship moving forward
extremely unlikely, if notimpossible.
That being said, um she's aperson who's frequently on my
(45:54):
mind.
I do love my sister very much.
SPEAKER_04 (45:59):
And um I wish that the situation could be
different.
SPEAKER_05 (46:10):
And this is one thing where I kind of hate the
limitations of owning my own endof things because I don't know
what, if anything, I could dodifferently to make that
relationship a possibility.
SPEAKER_02 (46:28):
Have you thought about talking to her?
SPEAKER_05 (46:34):
Yeah, I've thought about it.
I've thought about what thatconversation might look like.
I thought about what even tryingto set up that conversation
might look like.
But um all across the board,that just falls into the
category of I don't know.
Just don't know how to make ithappen, and I don't know what
(46:56):
exactly it would look like.
SPEAKER_03 (46:59):
Okay, so I guess this would be my below the belt
question because this is aquestion you asked me uh for my
interview, but I think it'srelevant and I think it's
important, and I think this issomething that might become
habit on my show.
So um if she were sitting here,what would you want to say to
(47:23):
her?
SPEAKER_04 (47:26):
First of all, I'm sorry.
I can't even begin tocommunicate how sorry I am for
not showing you theunderstanding that you deserved.
I'm sorry that I couldn'tprotect you from whatever it was
(47:52):
that life threw at you that youprobably expected that your big
brother would protect you from.
I'm sorry that I didn't pull myhead out of my ass sooner.
SPEAKER_05 (48:12):
Because if I had if I'd recognized certain things
about myself a little bitsooner, I might have recognized
that, you know, these wereshared characteristics between
you and I.
And I might have been able toencourage you to get the help
that I found.
And even if you hadn't gottenthe help, maybe I would have had
(48:36):
enough understanding to justaccept you for who you are, and
recognize that there's certainthings that you were never going
to be able to handle, and Icould have figured out how to
navigate around that.
SPEAKER_04 (48:48):
Most importantly, though, I would tell her I love
you.
I love you no matter what.
And even if we never see eachother again, you're always gonna
be my sister.
(49:10):
And if you ever need your bigbrother, I'm here for you.
SPEAKER_01 (49:16):
Can you share a memory that reflects the
relationship that you had withyour sister?
Key.
SPEAKER_05 (49:29):
Every Sunday after church, the first thing we would
do is we would get out of thefamily station wagon, still in
our Sunday finest, and I wouldrun to the side of the house and
grab my big wheel.
SPEAKER_04 (49:44):
And I would ride it down the driveway, and then Key
would stand on the back and puther little hands on my
shoulders, and we go tearing offdown the road.
SPEAKER_05 (49:59):
And that was pretty much how early childhood was.
It was always just the two of usinseparable, like 100% of the
time.
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