things will get DiFFeReNT

Though our guest Alexander Desmerais suffered the most vile of childhood traumas, and continues to be estranged from any meaningful family bonds, he has developed a productive approach to life that should serve as an example to all of us. He reminds us that no matter how terrible an experience, it is temporary. He goes on to teach us that trauma is as impermanent as we’re willing to do the work to make it.

...Alexander Desmarais is an undergraduate student working to become a counselor. 

...Canadian resources:

...If you need help in Canada please call the suicide hotline. It's open 24/7, staffed with caring people who just want to help. 1-800-SUICIDE (1-800-784-2433)

...To speak with a trained counselor any time, and you're under the age of 25, please call the kids help line at 1-800-668-6868. If you can’t call but have access to the internet, please visit www.YouthinBC.com

...For youth and young adult help and information www.mindcheck.ca is an excellent resource.

...For sexual education resources, please go to www.scarleteen.com. This is an incredible resource for both youth and educators not only to learn how to talk about sex and sex education, but an incredible archive of useful knowledge for people of all ages!

...USA resources:

...If you need help in the US, please call the suicide lifeline 1-800-273-8255 or visit https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

...For access to counselling online, visit https://etherapypro.com, or speak to your doctor about options available to you.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
The following is a Kingfisher media production.

SPEAKER_04 (00:19):
You are listening to When the Bell Breaks podcast.
This is your host, Alexis Erlin.
Today I am with AlexanderDemray.
Oh, wait a minute.
Is this for this is this let'ssee here.
Hold on.
Well, this is gonna be funny forour listeners, really quick.
I don't even want to edit thisout because we have more than
one show we're working on, andnow I'm almost forgetting which
show this is for.
So this is really funny.

(00:41):
Um is this for WTVV or is thisfor what I like about you
podcasts?

SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
This is this is when the bow breaks.

SPEAKER_04 (00:49):
That's what I thought, just checking.
So I'm gonna plug that rightaway, just you know, in case I
forget later.
So anyway, this is when the bowbreaks today.
Um that was a really, reallyfunny fluke.
Uh, my apologies.
But anyway, yes, this is whenthe bow breaks.
And the reason why I gotconfused is because Alexander
Demray is also guesting on WhatI Like About You podcast.

(01:10):
So that is really the genuinereason why I got confused.
So without further ado,Alexander Demray, will you
please say hello to ourlisteners and give us a little
bit of a brief bio aboutyourself so we kind of get to
know like what you're all about.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
Okay.
Well, it's very nice to talk toyou guys.
My name's Alexander.
So I just wanted to start withjust a really quick little
disclaimer for myself.
So uh I'm not a doctor, I'm nota psychologist, I'm just a guy
in an undergraduate study, andI'm trying to become a
counselor.
If you're feeling, you know, notsafe, you need some help, you

(01:46):
live in the Fraser Valleyregion, you know, at any time
you can feel free to contact mevia Facebook at Alexander
Demoray, which is spelledD-E-S-M-A-R-A-I-S, or you can
contact me directly at my workemail, which is videomaker at
live.ca.

SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 (02:03):
Yeah.
So I just wanted to reach out toanybody who might be listening
to this podcast and and you knowmight be hurting and and you
know wants uh a stranger to talkto.

SPEAKER_04 (02:12):
Right.
Sometimes it's easier to talk toa stranger than someone we know,
eh?

SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (02:20):
So why don't you give me a little bit of a
background about yourself?
You have a really, reallyinteresting story, and I've kept
in the dark about your story onpurpose.
I know AC is is uh you guys knoweach other, and um so he's
refrained from giving me toomuch information because I
really like to experience thisfor the first time on the show

(02:41):
along with our listeners.
So tell me a little bit aboutyourself.

SPEAKER_01 (02:45):
Okay.
Well, um, so I grew up in fostercare with a pretty, pretty
unique situation as far as youknow, interactions go with the
Canadian Protective ChildProtective Agency.
I was a I was later adopted bymy aunt and uncle, my great aunt
and uncle, actually, with my twoolder twin brothers, um, along

(03:06):
with a plethora of otherchildren.
Um, I believe at this time,though I haven't met all of
them, I have seven brothers andtwo sisters.
So quite the quite the family.

SPEAKER_04 (03:18):
Wow.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Yeah.
And uh so I don't know most ofthem because some of them came
after I did, but uh at the timeI had three brothers and one
sister when I was first adopted.
Um and uh I moved out veryyoung.
You know, I became uh I becamean adult at 15.

(03:41):
Got my first first job at 15.
You know, I went and uh I got tomeet my biological parents,
which is just a whole nightmareall on its own.
And uh yeah, I ended up livingwith them for a short period of
time uh you know during my mytransition into being a
functioning member of society.

(04:02):
Um and then uh yeah, Itransferred off into the working
world and I've I've been thereever since.

SPEAKER_04 (04:10):
So so 15.
I remember being 15, right?
I'm just gonna go back a littlebit.
I also have a 15-year-old.
It's crazy for me to think ofher being in and out of foster
care and then all of a suddenbeing on completely on her own
at 15 and having a job andsupporting herself.

(04:32):
Yeah, did you feel prepared forthat?

SPEAKER_01 (04:35):
Oh, oh no, no, no, not even a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 (04:39):
Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
I'm still not prepared.

SPEAKER_04 (04:42):
Right.
I still feel like that too.
I still feel like that too at38, especially during a
pandemic.
No one's prepared.

SPEAKER_01 (04:48):
Oh, yeah, decades later, and I'm still like, God,
why does this keep happening?

SPEAKER_04 (04:53):
Right, right.
Sometimes I feel like I justwant to tell my kids, you know
what, don't worry about it.
It's all gonna get worse.

SPEAKER_02 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_04 (05:03):
But I know that's not entirely true.
Life teaches us a lot, and it'staught you a lot.
So you're 15 and you're takingcare of yourself now.
So then what happens?

SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
Oh, God.
Okay, well, I'll give you alittle pre, like an excerpt as
to what led up to that.
So most kids who grow up in thefoster care system, even after
adoption, you know, theirresources are limited.
They're they've been, you know,excommunicated from their
families.
They they don't have any ofthose sort of like aunts and
uncles and you know, people thatthey can turn to, and and you

(05:35):
know, all of a sudden we findourselves no longer in the care
of the government, and and weknow what the government
bureaucracy is like.
They're just like, oh, you'rethis age, we're done with you.
Sorry, have a nice day, no morecommunication.

SPEAKER_04 (05:47):
So, like right, lack of funding or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 (05:50):
Absolutely, even just support in general.
Like, there's there's noinformation.
So, you know, I'm 15 years oldand and my grades are everything
to me.
Um so growing up having limitedsocial interaction with other
people, I was sort of thisarrogant, know it all teenager,

(06:11):
like you know, like manyteenagers are.
But I think yeah, I like normal,but to maybe to an excessive
extent.
So, you know, someone would saysomething silly to me, like
something, you know, that mightnot make sense or you know,
might not be based in fact thatI would consider to be common
knowledge, and I would just beso facetious with them.
I, you know, these people wouldsay something and I would just
turn around and be like, Goodlord, you should just kill

(06:34):
yourself.
Like you're you're so dumb, youshould just kill yourself.
Get away from me right now.
So I grew up alienating myselffrom people around me because I
had this superiority complex.
Because, you know, it truth betold, I was a fairly intelligent
young person.
Um, and my grades reflectedthat.
So I worked very, very hard atschool.

(06:54):
Um, but I did not have the uh,you know, the financial
resources or the understandingof, you know, the greater
understanding of how lifeworked.
So I had no idea, you know, whatwhat getting a job was gonna be
like, what supporting myself wasgonna be like.

SPEAKER_04 (07:09):
You know, I'm thinking Well, yeah, and you're
practically still going throughpuberty at that time.

SPEAKER_01 (07:13):
Yeah, exactly.
And also at that time, I thinkminimum wage was like seven
dollars and fifty cents an hour.
So, you know, I'm sitting thereon my on my calculator going,
okay, so if I work exactly thismany hours, I will make this
much money.
If rent costs about this much,I'm trying to figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 (07:28):
Yeah, and you're thinking, oh, that'll be enough.

SPEAKER_01 (07:30):
Yeah, it all seems totally feasible, and it's
absolutely not like not even alittle bit.

SPEAKER_04 (07:36):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
So uh my my dad, who was in his 60s, my adoptive dad,
I should do I should specifythat.
My adoptive father, he was inhis 60s when we were adopted and
getting pretty close to his 70swhen I left.
I wasn't there for an incrediblylong period of time, though it
was it it felt like it, it wasquite a few years.

(07:58):
He had a problem with usingverbal violence to kind of
confer to you that that you knowyou couldn't step outside of his
boundary.
He wasn't a big man, he was, youknow, he maybe came up to my
shoulder and he was just a potbellied little French dude.
And you know, he had broken hisback uh in a work injury as a

(08:20):
heavy duty mechanic many, manylike years, like decades before
I was even born.
So he was partially crippled.
But the guy would not hesitateto pick you up and put a hole in
his own drywall with your headif you know you were going
outside of his norms, you know,and it was very rare for him to
be physically violent like that,though on occasion it did

(08:41):
happen.

SPEAKER_04 (08:42):
The last time it was enough to know that it did
happen that it was going tohappen.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (08:47):
And like he would threaten it more than it would
happen, and like, you know, youwould just know that he could
get to that level of violencejust with his actions, you know.
You didn't you didn't even haveyou didn't have to do it, you
just you just knew that if youstepped out of line, you know,
you you're getting you'regetting something not so nice.
Right.
So the last time we ever reallyspoke, my my adoptive sister,

(09:11):
who was pretty new to thefamily, and she had some like
serious trauma as far as likesexual abuse went, and you know,
being in a very Roman Catholicfamily, like you know, also with
your story, like they just theythought that counselors were
just absolute quacks.
They were just like, you don'tneed a counselor, counselors are
stupid, and mental health is amyth.
Um you don't you don't need anyof those things.

(09:33):
So she had these problems uhwith sexuality, and now all of a
sudden she's in a house full ofuh you know legally related but
blood unrelated teenage to adultmen.
And you know, this was this wasexciting for her.
She was like, oh, all these boysaround, and you know, she
behaved very inappropriately,and none of us ever behaved

(09:53):
inappropriately with her, butyou know, she would make these
comments and write these storiesabout us and and you know in her
journal, and some of them werejust like absolutely profane and
in the in the hands of the wrongperson, even though because she
was just pubescent at the time,you know, the the ridiculousness
of it because of her lack ofexperience, no regular adult

(10:15):
would have believed the thingsthat she was saying because they
just didn't happen in real life.

SPEAKER_04 (10:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
You know, had they fallen into the the hands of of
someone, you know, in the schoolsystem or another parent, I
mean, there could have been realissues.
So my parents were really hardon her, but they would just, you
know, like call her a slut andtell her that you know she needs
to go into her room and and youknow make right with God.
And oh, yeah, it was justbrutal.
But one day she came downstairsto tell me that dinner was ready

(10:42):
and uh I was on my computer inmy room and she just busted into
my room and she's just trying todinner's ready.
And uh I was like, Oh, yeah,okay, okay, I'll uh you know,
just give me a minute and hey,can you you know can you knock
next time?
You know, I'm a teenage boy.
What do you think?
Like, I'm on my computer.
You know, my parents hadsoftware installed on my
computer so that they could seeeverything that I touched and
typed.

(11:03):
But uh, you know, she wentupstairs, she was all mad that
I, you know, had been upset withher.
And and I don't recall beingangry, but you know, she went
upstairs and she told myadoptive mother that I had
called her a fucking slut and afat bitch and all these just
like really terrible things.
And I was just downstairs on mycomputer.
I think I was playing Minecraft,probably.

(11:24):
And so my dad comes downstairsand he he comes into my room, he
like busts my door open, hegrabs me by the back of my
shirt, he picks me up, and he'sjust what did you say to your
sister?
And he's just freaking out, andhe picks me up right off the
ground and he starts hitting meinto the wall.
And it didn't it didn't reallyhurt because you know he's older

(11:45):
and and you know, like it waslike it was you could see his
face was like so sweaty and red,like he could just like barely
hold me up.

SPEAKER_04 (11:52):
And uh try not to have a heart attack while
exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (11:56):
And so at you know, at 15 I I realized that you know
that I'm bigger than you and youcan't do this to me anymore.

SPEAKER_02 (12:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (12:04):
So I grabbed him by the front of his shirt and I
picked him up right off theground.
And now this is this is thething that I think I feel the
most guilt about in my entirelife because he was already
crippled, but I picked him upright off the ground and I
slammed him into the hardwoodfloor on his back so hard I
actually rebroke it.
And uh, so he had to have acouple surgeries, but uh I had I

(12:27):
had managed to get in contactwith my biological dad uh you
know around that time, and um,so I was dating this girl
locally, and and so I called herand I said, Hey, listen, can you
get somebody to come give me aride?
I need out of here, like rightnow, like in in five minutes.
And this is pretty you know,like seven, eight o'clock at
night.

SPEAKER_04 (12:47):
Yeah, it's kind of an emergency.

SPEAKER_01 (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
But in the in the in the processof this struggle, my dad had
actually broken my ribs, he uhpunched me in the ribs a couple
of times.
And so she had gotten herneighbor to drive all the way up
to my house.
And I lived in like the mostrural part of my area, like you
know, way, way in the back.
And uh, so he drove out to myhouse and he he picked me up

(13:12):
with her.
And uh, I had to lay down acrossthe back seat, and I'm like, I'm
clutching my side, and he'slike, You need to go see a
doctor, you okay?
You gotta go to the hospital.
I'm like, No, I'm fine.
Yeah, and and I get to mygirlfriend's house, and she
takes a look, and like I'mpurple from my uh from my hip to
my armpit.
Yeah, she's you know, it wasbad, but I I never ended up
going to the doctor.
I I just have this thing aboutdoctors, I don't know why, but

(13:33):
uh that that's how I ended up onmy own.
And so I had like completelyexcommunicated myself from my
family by doing this thing thatI had done and choosing to
leave.
And and so you know, all of asudden I was cut off from from
you know, not only my brothers,but you know, my the family that
I knew, the little resourcesthat I did have.

SPEAKER_04 (13:54):
The family you did have.

SPEAKER_01 (13:56):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, and so I I ended upcontinuing to go to school while
I'm living at this at mygirlfriend's house and um
working a part-time job atnighttime, and I still like my
my only goal was like I justgotta graduate.
Like nothing else matters.
I just have to make sure I getthat GED so that I can get a
good job.
University's off the plate now,I've got no support.

(14:18):
And yeah, you know, my teacherswere not like my last block of
the day.
I would have a you know, anEnglish teacher who'd say to me,
You can't leave early.
I'm like, it's 15 minutes, Igotta get on a bus to get to
work.
And she goes, I don't care.
You can't leave.
I'm gonna, you know, like I'mgonna dock marks off of you for
attending issues.
I'm like, Yeah, you're gonnafail me for trying to support
myself.
And she's just like, Yeah, sorryabout your luck, man.

(14:39):
And I'm like, oh man, like itwas just brutal.

SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
And yeah, I think some people don't get that.
You're out there, you're tryingto survive, and there's all
these little roadblocks.

SPEAKER_01 (14:49):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (14:50):
We're gonna fail you, you know.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:54):
These teachers, they just like they can't even
imagine a world where a15-year-old is, you know,
completely on their own.
You know, they they have allthese resources and things that
they know about, and you know,they obviously aren't gonna
share them with you becauseyou're not asking, but you know,
they can't they can't imaginethe world where no, exactly.
Yeah, and I didn't know any ofthese resources were available

(15:15):
to me at the time, my life wouldhave been a lot different if I
had.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (15:17):
The number one you're you're expecting your
parents to take care of you,right?

SPEAKER_01 (15:21):
Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (15:22):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (15:23):
And the number one resource was that like kids in
foster care, and if any kids orpeople who have, you know, uh
aged out of the foster caresystem in Canada don't know
this.
But if you're under the age of27, your education is completely
and utterly free forpost-secondary tuition.
They just cover it.
No questions asked, you fill outa piece of paper, they send it

(15:44):
to the school you've applied to,no tuition, it's gone.
You just have to cover your costof living and your books.
So anybody out there who needsthat resource, it's called the
BC tuition waiver, and you canbetter your life.
High school did not have to bethe stopping point for you.

SPEAKER_04 (16:00):
Good information.
Yes.
No, that's gonna help a lot ofpeople.
Yeah, totally like listenersjust go back, you know, maybe
like 30 seconds and like listento it again.
That's good information.
Thank you for bringing that up.

SPEAKER_02 (16:15):
Of course.

SPEAKER_04 (16:16):
So so you're you know, you're so you're 15,
you're trying to do this.
So I'm trying to, I'm trying tosee where the story's going here
because I don't, I mean, this isa lot of stuff that's happened
to you.
You're you're you're you're 15and you're just trying to
graduate high school, you'retrying to survive, and you're

(16:38):
not really, you know, what aboutyour feelings at this time?
You probably didn't even havetime to think about them, did
you?

SPEAKER_00 (16:46):
If you are experiencing estrangement from a
family member and would like tobe a guest, please email us at
wtvb podcast at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
Not really, but I will disclose this just for the
fun of it.
Okay.
Um so I I have a conditioncalled type 2 bipolar disorder.
And so type 2 bipolar disorderis called a rapid rapid cycling
bipolar.
So that doesn't mean that ithappens every day or every
minute.
Medically, it just means that ithappens more than four times a
year.
So you have these sort of manicepisodes and depressive

(17:20):
episodes.
But the the really fun thing,and and so bipolar disorder is
is less common in teenagers, andit's usually more prelevant in
young people when a parent hasit and that those children go
through some, you know, somefairly severe trauma.
Trigger those developmentalgenes, right and that change in
the brain.

(17:41):
So when you are going throughpuberty and the hormone
imbalance in your brain is justout of control on a good day,
and then you drop bipolardisorder on top of it, it is the
most destructive force that everexisted.
Like Hurricane Katrina hasnothing on my emotions.
I destroyed my own life over andover and over again just for the

(18:05):
sake of quenching this anxietythat was like being struck by a
bolt of lightning at any givenmoment.
So bipolar disorder is reallyfunny.
You know, your girlfriend breaksup with you, you're sad.
It's it's kind of the end of theworld, you know.
Sometimes it can be a really bigdeal, um, especially when we're

(18:26):
teenagers.
I mean, I know most of us canbarely remember it, but for me,
it was like someone literallystuck a lightning rod in the
side of my stomach and hooked itup to BC Hydro's power dam and
was just shocking me everyminute of every day.
And the only way that I couldfigure out how to deal with
these, like these feelings thatwere so intense and

(18:48):
overwhelming, like I like havinga heart attack at any given
moment, was yeah, that there wasno real behavior or no solution
to make them go away.
I had no resources, I had no wayto like, you know, calm myself,
no, no sort of mindfulness to beable to keep control.
So my only solution was just toact like a psychopath, you know,

(19:09):
just yeah, making decisions thatnot only didn't make sense to to
me, but the people around me,especially.
And and even before I left myhome, you know, my parents would
say things like, you know, whydid you do that?
And I'd say, I don't know.
And they would say somethingalong the lines of, I don't know
isn't a reason.
And for all of us who have heardthis, I am telling you now, I

(19:32):
don't know is 100% a validreason.
And anybody who tells youotherwise is absolutely dead
wrong.
I don't know is a valid reason.
Yeah.
So, you know, dealing with thesehuge emotions and this anxiety,
and and and not just theanxiety, because you know, we
all remember those special timesin our life.

(19:54):
You know, you go outside andit's a beautiful morning, and
it's kind of the atmosphere isreally perfect, and you can kind
of smell.
know say fall on the air and andit's just those moments that we
want to hold on to and rememberbecause they're just gorgeous.
Well I I was having those like16 times a day.
You know, so I I'm trying tohold on to all these beautiful

(20:14):
things and moments and likesometimes I'm so happy that I
couldn't stand it and othertimes I'm so sad that I you know
I just want to kill myself andand and not just with happy and
sad like when it comes to thingslike jealousy oh Lord when I was
jealous like like no no nothinglike a woman's scorn you should
see me when I'm jealous it it'sjust uncontrollable behavior.

SPEAKER_04 (20:38):
So what were some of the other sorry I didn't mean to
like interrupt but like whatwere some of the feelings if you
could label them you know at 15I mean these are big things.
I mean I remember being 15 yeahthe littlest crush is like a big
huge I mean it feels reallyreally really really big.

SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
And so you know I know what feeling like thinking
that you're in love when you're15 but when you're feeling like
abandoned yes like can you talka little bit about what you were
feeling at that time oh I wasangry yeah I was such an angry
angry person and uh I was angryabout everything but at the time

(21:24):
when it happened I didn't feelso much angry about abandonment
because I was so used to thisthis type of of thing happening
in my life that it didn't feellike abandonment.
It felt like my choice like itwas my decision to you know call
these people to come rescue meand to you know yeah finally
have enough with my dad so thatwasn't so much the abandonment

(21:46):
issue.
The abandonment issue came fromfrom you know like my my
brothers writing me off becauseI you know I didn't fit into the
bubble of this upper middleclass lifestyle that my adoptive
parents were trying to providefor me.
You know they thought I was anidiot and couldn't understand
why I couldn't just you knowconform to them.
So like I lost my brothers andthen you know I would come

(22:06):
across them every couple ofyears and I haven't spoken to
them any of them in over adecade.
But you know I'll see them everyonce in a while doing their
thing and and you know they lookat me and I look at them and
we're strangers.
We don't know each other.
So at that time I was prettycrushed with the loss of like my
direct family you know and I wasalso pretty crushed with losing
something that had become not astable home but a home where

(22:32):
stability could be had because Iwas there every day.
A routine home.

SPEAKER_04 (22:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:38):
So that loss was was a big deal.

SPEAKER_04 (22:41):
So you know we were talking about that a a little
bit you know the other day andyou had mentioned something to
me that you know your parentsyou so you were saying you were
in foster care but I don't Idon't remember you exactly
telling me what happened withyour parents and how you ended
up in foster care.
We don't have to you know go toodeep into that story but you

(23:03):
know there is a point to myquestion because I was curious.
But first of all what happenedwith your parents when was the
last time you saw your parentsdid you know where they were
when your new parent when youradopted parents took you in
what's kind of that wholedynamic there.

SPEAKER_01 (23:20):
Okay.
So there are a couple of legalissues in regards to the
discussion of this with the withthe ministry um so there is a
there's a very large ongoing umtrial in in in kind of uh
regards to to what happened withme and my brothers and about a
hundred other kids um involvedin the Vancouver Island uh

(23:44):
ministries care but uh I cangeneralize I just can't give out
any names so basically when whenI was about I don't know I think
I was probably about two and ahalf years old my parents who
were very very young decided togo to the ministry to ask for
respite care.

(24:05):
So my mom I believe was 19 yearsold when she had my two older
twin brothers and she waspregnant before she met my dad
and she had just found out orshe wasn't quite sure but she
thought she might be pregnant.
So she went and she found my dadand uh I believe they had been
friends previous but not close.
And uh so she hooked up with himand then a couple of days later

(24:29):
said Real I'm pregnant you gotto take care of me.
So she had you know essentiallytrapped him into a relationship
that the children weren't evenhis.
Right.
So my brothers were born my mymom suffers from a couple of
conditions but the only two thatI know of is um bipolar disorder

(24:49):
and some type of schizophrenia.
So she's a bipolar schizophrenicand she also really enjoys drugs
or she did at the time and so aswe all know with bipolar
disorder and drugs they don'tmix.
And drugs are bad in general butwhen you take a bipolar person
and and and give them cocaineyou're in for a world of

(25:10):
trouble.
So this you know 19 20 year oldwoman she's got two kids she's
alone she has you know severemental illness and the children
are sick.
So both of my brothers hadreally bad gastrointestinal
conditions they were lactoseintolerant and nobody knew so
they were just crying screamingthey you know like purple crying

(25:32):
they just would not stop 24hours a day my mom's losing it
she gets pregnant with me andthen you know and they had
decided they said you know we'regonna have this this one we're
gonna make this oneintentionally so they made me
and uh so I suddenly was thisperfect creation of theirs in

(25:52):
every way like I couldn't Icouldn't I guess do anything
wrong and um you know I was justthis angelic figure in their
life whereas the twins were werewere sort of a nightmare to
them.
So my parents tried really hardto bond with me and both of them
kind of severely neglected mytwo brothers.
So there was a time period whenum they asked for the ministry

(26:14):
for some assistance with maybegetting some respite because a
ministry worker had offered likehey listen you can put your kids
in respite for a short period oftime if you guys need you know
some social assistance orwhatever some help some time to
get yourself in a place to bebetter parents and we walked in
the door they walked in the doorwe were dropped off and we were
never allowed out again so wewent into foster care and we're

(26:37):
gone immediately wow so myparents they they fought really
hard to try and get us back whenwhen we were young and and for
the longest time I I just onlyreally knew their side of the
narrative I didn't understandthat there were you know like
multiple reports of you know myparents having left my brother
in my brothers in their diapersfor like days at a time there

(26:58):
was starvation issues likemalnutrition there's there was
just extreme neglect um but I'mmuch too young to remember and I
don't believe any of that everhappened directly to me.
So we were put in into thefoster care system and we were
moved around a lot just to makesure that my parents didn't know

(27:20):
where we were because the islandcommunities are very small and a
lot of people know a lot ofpeople so it was pretty easy to
find someone that you werelooking for.
So we were moved from town totown district to district we
lived in Cinnabar Valley inNanaimo all over the place and
and we ended up with this thissocial care worker who you know
she was older she seemed veryvery lovely um and she dropped

(27:43):
us off with um an older familywho was going to be fostering us
and uh they ended up fosteringus for quite a few years but
they they didn't really do agreat job so one we were left
alone almost all of the timewith no supervision.
Oh god the other thing was thatwe had regular visitors over to

(28:08):
the house who were sort of thereto um to enjoy us as children so
not so much fun and I don't wantto go into a whole lot of detail
on that.
Right right there that's a niceyeah yeah there there was some
things going on there and sowhat I found out later through

(28:29):
um a little bit of connectionthrough this court case was that
this social worker had beencreating false reports about
checkups on these kids so sayingthat the checkups had been done
everything looked healthy thingswere going normally they were
getting their education and sothe foster parents were actually
paying her to do this and so youknow I don't know a whole lot

(28:55):
about how this system works butfrom my understanding is that
our paperwork was pushed to theside and we were never checked
up on other than by her while wewere in this just just
absolutely extreme situation.
But the thing is we didn't knowit was extreme at the time
because we were so young.
Sure you were kids you couldn'thave known yes yeah we had no

(29:16):
idea we were presented with thisreality and we accepted it.
So right you know when thiswoman would come over all of a
sudden all the toys from thehigh shelf that we could never
reach were on the floor and wewere put in in normal clothing
and you know allowed to runaround and play with these toys

(29:38):
and you know she would come overand you know see that things
were pretty normal as far asnormal could be for you know
their arrangement.
And then the moment she walkedout the door those toys were you
know they were packed up into abox and put onto a onto a really
high shelf um you know in thehallway and locked away so that
we couldn't get our hands onthem just to show like a symbol

(29:58):
of normality and and we didn'tunderstand it was just like oh
it's time to play with toys likeyou know this is great we never
get this.
Yeah or we get to play with toyswhile mom has a visit so we
don't bother anyone yes you knowlike yeah yeah yeah no I get
that yeah and when any of my andthey had children of their own
so when any of my fosterbrothers had friends over if
there were any other adults inthe house you know life was like

(30:21):
it it was like a you know a crlike a Christmas miracle movie
it was just it was wonderful forthe period of time that they
were there until they were gone.
And then after they were gone itwas like it was worse because
they had had to treat us sowell.
Like if if I went upstairs andsaid hey like listen I'm hungry
and they would go oh yeah yeahwe'll make you a snack like here

(30:42):
you know we got some chef boy RDfor you or whatever and I would
you know I would eat that andand and be stoked and you know
I'm like I'm still hungry Ihaven't eaten since yesterday
and if I said something likethat in front of their guests
they you know they were suchgood liars they you know they
would say like oh you know kidsimaginations he's so silly right

(31:02):
you know how picky kids can beabsolutely yeah yeah you were
listening to When the BellBreaks with your host Alexis
Erlen so we were put into abuilding called the Extension
School which is located inCinnabar Valley and um it

(31:23):
actually got torn down this yearwhich is really neat I I
actually after we had our littlechat I went to try and find
where this school was um it'scalled the Extension School of
Cinnabar Valley and it uh it itwas closed in 2001 which was
probably the last year that Iwent there maybe a little bit
sooner but uh when CinnabarValley Elementary School opened

(31:44):
up but um for the majority ofthe time that I lived there we
actually didn't attend school weweren't allowed to leave the
house and the time periods thatwe did leave school you know we
were sometimes sent home becausewe smelled bad or we didn't have
food with us and and forwhatever reason our educators
didn't take notice they you knowthere was no red flags there was

(32:05):
like they're like oh these youknow these dirty poor foster
kids are showing up to schoolwith with like old clothes and
they they reek and they don'thave any food like you know
you'd think you'd call somebodyright but they didn't they
didn't have the foresight to dothat.
So we would just be sent homeand after a while they just said
we were being homeschooled andthey just left us at home.
Wow yeah so it was it was notgood and we didn't know what

(32:29):
anything was like I had neverseen a television before like I
don't really recall having seena television up close or in
person until I was probablyabout eight or nine years old.
I didn't I didn't understand itor or know what it was.
So like the first time I saw atelevision I was just like oh my
god there's there's somebody inthe box like how do I get them
out you know they're like it itwas just magic to me.

SPEAKER_04 (32:48):
Uh wow so so you weren't allowed to like go to
school anymore.
Yeah so and you have notelevision no and no food.
What did you do all day?

SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
Well that's the thing we just played we just we
were let loose outside umCinnabar Valley is a really
small community and you know wewould we would go find the
neighbor kids and and you knowgo you know yeah yeah light you
start to see who has snackslaying around yeah yeah hey what
are you having for snack or yeahyou start to kind of like see

(33:22):
what you can get elsewhere andescape your reality for a little
bit yes and also a lot of thetimes we were locked out so like
there was no option to oh geezto go back inside because they
didn't they didn't want us thereespecially if they were gonna
have guests over and it was themiddle of the day it was like
just go play outside and youknow we didn't have any toys you
know I remember really you knewthat you weren't unwanted at

(33:45):
that age or was that somethingyou had discovered when you were
older I I don't know if I had II know it now but I I don't know
if I had the concept at the timeit was just like this is a
normal Tuesday.
Exactly yeah yeah so I had noidea they were just like you're
outside to play and we'relocking the door and I'm like oh
but I don't want to be outsideand they're like cuff kitty.
Yeah but you know like Iremember there was a winter

(34:09):
where I I they locked us in ourrooms a lot of the time too
depending on what was going onand I I remember that I had been
locked in my room for like sometime I I it was so long ago that
my idea of time it might havebeen like you know only a few
hours but it it also may havebeen days but I had to pee so

(34:29):
bad like it it hurt and I just Ihad to pee and there was no way
to get out of my room there wasno window there was there was
not I couldn't get out so I Iended up having to pee on the
floor in the corner and uh whenthey found out that I had done
this they actually they tossedme outside and uh it was pretty
cold there wasn't any snow onthe ground but it was it was I

(34:52):
think it may have been snowingand so I was thrown outside in
just I I think they were like mymorning pajamas or whatever like
they were like boxer shortsright and and a t-shirt and I
had no shoes on and I remember Ihad to I I was trying to find

(35:16):
somewhere to go and uh so I'm uhI'm walking down this this the
street in Cinnabar Valley it'sit's a long hill and uh the
pavement is so cold it's burningmy feet and I can't walk and uh

(35:36):
it hurts and I and I need tofind something to put on my feet
because it's so cold and uhsomebody had an an industrial
like uh bin in their in theirdriveway like a like a cardboard
bin yeah and so I ended up umcrawling inside of this bin to

(35:58):
try and get out of the cold anduh I don't know how long I was
in there um but somebodysomebody saw me one of the
neighbors saw me and I you knowI don't know what they thought
of this you know like half nakedhalf naked you know six year old
trying to crawl into a dumpsterlike I I think I almost fell

(36:18):
trying to get into it becauselike trying to step up into a
dumpster even as an adult is ais a pretty harrowing task.
Yeah they're tall yeah soanyways I got inside this thing
and I'm like and I'm hiding inhere and and some time went by
and I was I was I was gettingdizzy and I I think I was trying
to go to sleep and somebodypulled me out and uh it was the

(36:41):
owner of the house came and andpulled me out of this building
or out of this out of this thingand took me to their house.
And uh and it was an old man andhe and he sat with me for a
while and and you know ended uptaking me back to my house.
And of course my foster parentswhen he knocked on the door they
were like oh my gosh there he islike he got out of the house we
don't like we've been lookingfor him you know thank you so

(37:02):
much for bringing him back anduh you know like that was that
was the first time I reallynoticed the inconsistency in in
what it was you know what whatwas going on and uh you know
ever since then that I you knowI used to even in the summer I'd
I'd go walking down and I'd seehim and I would I would stop and
he was always so nice to me anduh he used to let me pick plums

(37:24):
off his off his tree in hisfront yard and yeah and he was
just I remember him and I Ithink he might be gone now
because he was pretty old thenbut uh do you remember his name
no I don't think I knew it yeahbut uh yeah it was it was so
long ago but yeah it was it wastough and then you know we had a

(37:47):
neighbor directly across from uswho had a son with some mental
illness um I'm not sure like hewas he was disabled like fully
disabled it may have been um uhDown syndrome there was you know
it was very clear in his face Iremember his face and um so he
used to play with us and I knowhe was much much older than we

(38:08):
were but I think mentally he wasaround the same age and uh so
this is probably in the in thesummertime I think and uh he
ended up getting me alone and uhyou know pinning me down and and
just you know taking his takinghis time about the thing but I I

(38:29):
just I remember the noise thathe used to make because of his
disability like I could hear itin my ear it was just this this
this just horrible gruntingsound it just it kills me and so
like my my my ex-wife she justshe hates that I can't stand to
be around people with severedisability and it's not because
I don't like them or think thatthey're wonderful people but I

(38:50):
just yeah I I can't even look attheir face without you know just
being triggered just tricktriggered just destroyed right
like they just they they make mefeel vile and not because
they're bad people or like Ihave anything against them.
I think most of them any of theones that I have met and
interacted with they'reabsolutely lovely sweethearts
but yeah you know this this boywas like crazy strong and I just

(39:15):
I couldn't get away yeah and soI went home after and uh I tried
to tell my foster parents whathad happened.
Yeah.
And so they actually called hisparents and you know here I'm
thinking like you knowsomebody's gonna finally do
something.
And so what they did was theyactually they brought him over

(39:37):
to my house and I was having abath because I was I was all
dirty and I'm sitting in thebathtub and they bring him into
the bathroom where I'm just I'msitting naked and exposed and
they tell me to apologize to himbecause I I had somehow

(39:58):
insinuated the circumstances.
I had somehow, you know, thisboy obviously was not able to
make these decisions on his own.
And I had, you know, you know,coaxed their child into you
know, into performing somethingthat he did not want to, and
that, you know, I had somehowdamaged this boy.
Um and they yeah, they made me,they made me apologize to him.

(40:21):
So it you know, it was it wasn'tgood.

SPEAKER_04 (40:24):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm sitting over herelooking for my box of tissues.
I feel like for me the worstkind of traumas weren't
measurable by the actual act ofwhat happened.
I feel like the worst parts ofmy my personal trauma were those

(40:50):
times when I asked for help andnot only was denied, but also
further exposed and then made tofeel like it was my fault.

SPEAKER_01 (41:01):
Yes.
Yeah, there's something to besaid about the saying screaming
for help.
When you say screaming for help,it's a very emotional thing.

SPEAKER_04 (41:11):
Yeah.
I get that.
Um so as an adult, I'm assumingyou know, you graduated college
or high school to start.

SPEAKER_02 (41:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (41:27):
And then you went on to study and study and study and
study where you know, much ofyour personal time.
And so I obviously we can justsay easily that that affected
you majorly, like negatively.

SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 (41:48):
But as an adult now, obviously it's still difficult
to talk about those thingsalways are.
And I really appreciate yourvulnerability and sharing those
things because even thoughthey're hard to listen to, it
you know, it puts things intoperspective and context, and we
understand these feelings.

(42:08):
I think.

SPEAKER_02 (42:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (42:11):
And so it's important.
So I just wanted to say thankyou for that, first of all.
But, you know, how did you dealwith this?
All of this, having, you know,your parents having not been
able to care for you anymore forone reason or another, going
through all of that, seeingneglect and abuse, seeing it

(42:33):
done to other people and havingit done to you, not, you know,
all thinking that it was normal,and then one day realizing that
it's not, and then you have allof these feelings coming up
again, and you're identifying,you know, going through your
trauma.
What was that like?
So, you know, did you ever go tocounseling for any of this
stuff?

SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
I know we already kind of talked about this, but
you know, for our listeners'sake, yes, I did end up going to
counseling for a number ofyears, um, which is what exposed
me to counseling andpsychotherapy, which is why I
wanted more do what I do.
Right.
So I saw a lot of counselors.
It was mandated that we see somecounselors when we were first

(43:13):
adopted, though it was a bighassle for my adoptive parents
to have to deal with taking us.
You know, we lived quite a waysout of the way, so them having
to drive us was a big deal.
And then the fact that they justdidn't believe in it, um, you
know, though it was mandated bythe ministry over here that you
know we see uh certain certaincounselors.
Um so you know, the first time Isaw a counselor, my adoptive mom

(43:39):
came in and it was a woman, andshe was wonderful, she's
absolutely wonderful, and sheworked for the uh the mission um
like the mission mental healthunit in downtown Mission.
She was just just a wonderfullady.
And so I had, you know, I'd beenwith my adoptive parents for
quite a bit of time at thispoint, and things weren't so
good.
But so when my mom came in to,you know, to you know, she came

(44:00):
in for the first counselingsession, and uh she told my
counselor, like, listen, yougotta be really careful with
this one.
He doesn't have any respect forwomen, and you know, like he'll
he'll just charm you right offyour feet.
Um so you know, she waspurposely setting up a dialogue
with my with my counselor, whowas, I believe, a counselor in

(44:22):
training.
So she had someone else there inthe room every once in a while,
also doing her counseling hoursto get to get certified.
So she was very, very new tocounseling.
She had very little experience,but she she saw through my mom
before my mom opened her mouth.

SPEAKER_04 (44:39):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:40):
So when my mom left that counseling session about
halfway through, she the firstthing she said is, Are you okay
and do you need help?
And I said, I'm I'm okay, and Idon't think I need help, except
maybe to do these counselingsessions.

SPEAKER_04 (44:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Like I think I can handle thiswith some support.

SPEAKER_01 (45:02):
Yes, you know, yeah.
We we ended up having quite agreat therapeutic relationship
for about a year, and then Ibelieve she actually had to
refer me on because she wasmoving into a different part of
her study and becoming adifferent kind of counselor.
Um, so you know, I I I went tocounseling for quite a few years
as an adult, but surprisingly,most of the work that was done

(45:24):
to kind of get over thesetraumas was actually just living
life.
It it was outside of thecounseling therapy room.
But the counseling did play avery major role in my ability to
stop, you know, consider how Iwas feeling, what was actually
causing it, um, and you know, beable to not react so emotionally
to things.
That was the biggest thing Iever took out of counseling.

SPEAKER_04 (45:46):
Yeah, yeah.
You want to withdraw and youwant to just, you know, you you
think, oh, I can just barelymanage my feelings.
So I'm just gonna stay home, youknow, like I'm not gonna
interact with anybody.
But really, it's like once youget out there and apply, like
take what you've learned andwhat these experiences have
taught you and everything thatyou've been able to kind of work

(46:07):
at in counseling and therapy,when you do go out there and
start doing things, yeah, it'sreally, really scary.
And it doesn't matter like howlong ago all this was, sometimes
I still feel like I want towithdraw.
But you know, if that if I if Ifeel myself going back into
withdrawing, like I I call insomebody, I schedule myself

(46:28):
something to do because I knowthat it's not practical to get
there.
And you know, even though itfeels comfortable, you know, you
know, in the moment it's it'snot practical and it's hard
work.
Um to uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:44):
Yeah, you you end up being presented with this
mountain of of things that youhave to work through.
Uh-huh.
And it just it seems so big thatthat just even taking on the
task itself is so exhausting.
Just thinking about taking onthe task is so exhausting that
most people choose not to.
That's why people get stuck.

SPEAKER_04 (47:02):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (47:03):
So that's why counseling is such a positive
thing.

SPEAKER_04 (47:06):
Yes.
And so I'm gonna like, you know,kind of like flip things around
a little bit, you know, hearing,you know, your background and
stuff like that, it's it's sointeresting.
And and now it kind of brings meback to what we were talking
about in our chat the other day,is you know, why is it, why do
you want to be on this show?
What has estrangement taughtyou?
What have you learned?

(47:27):
What have you have how have youuh conducted your life around
this sort of long-term ongoingestrangement that seems to occur
with not just your parents, notjust your siblings, but all
these other people who weresupposed to take care of you?
What have you learned and whatdo you want to share with the

(47:49):
people who are listening tothese episodes?

SPEAKER_01 (47:53):
Well, it's kind of a it's kind of a big question.
It's kind of a lot.
It is a lot.
If I were to pack it down intoone thing, is that no matter how
long you feel like something isgoing to last or how painful
it's going to be and howimpermanent it actually is, it's

(48:17):
gonna end and it will be over.
And things may not necessarilybe better, but they will be
different.
And this pain that you'refeeling now is really truly and
honestly as temporary as you arewilling to put in the work to
make it.
So when you're suffering, youknow, it's like, you know, I I

(48:43):
used to have a real problem withdrinking, and now I don't drink
at all.
I have been sober for quite afew years now.
Um but you would notice, thankyou, when you when you when you
get too drunk, you feel sick andyou just you want it to be over.
That you know, you're throwingup the room spinning, and you
just you're like, this ruined mynight, and I just want to go to

(49:03):
bed, but I can't close my eyesbecause I'm spinning every time
I do, and it's just gonna makeme puke again.
And you just you want it to beover.
And so you just keep tellingyourself, you know, it's gonna
be over soon.
Like it this is gonna pass.
I'm gonna, you know, it's it'sgonna be gone when I wake up in
the morning.
I just have to make it throughright now.
And trauma is kind of like beingdrunk in that way.

(49:24):
It's it's it's only temporary,and traumas can last your entire
lifetime, they can last 20, 30years.
But only as as long as you'rewilling to not put in the work
will those things define you.
Right, right.
When you can when you can find asupport system, and that's the
hardest step, is is because thisfeels so heavy and like it's

(49:46):
gonna last so long and be sopermanent that without a support
system, you're gonna you'regonna be this person forever,
and you can't ever change.
And you're always gonna hatewhen people touch you, and
you're always gonna hate thesound uh you know that a that a
mentally disabled person makeswhen they cry out, you know, and
then all of a sudden you findyour support system, or your

(50:09):
support system finds you, andyou don't have a choice in the
matter.
And you you you know, you canbecause that happens sometimes.
People see what's going on andthey're like, hey man, we're
gonna help you and you're gonnashut up about it.
Um, you get these supportsystems and you, you know, you
you you take on that monumental,exhausting task of just one day

(50:31):
at a time getting a little bitbetter, even if it takes the
rest of your life, it'stemporary.

SPEAKER_03 (50:41):
Thank you for listening to When the Bow
Breaks.
As always, please remember tolike, follow, and share.
Links in this week's show notes.

SPEAKER_04 (50:53):
I started to learn that that things will change,
things do evolve, yes, and youknow, even though it's limited,
I do have, you know, a certainlevel of control and
responsibility.
You know, there's some wigglebroom.
I can choose how I respond tothings.

SPEAKER_01 (51:15):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (51:16):
I can choose to be a better listener, I can choose to
ask for help.

unknown (51:21):
Yep.

SPEAKER_04 (51:22):
Uh, you know, so there, you know, there are
things that I can do, but I dotake comfort in knowing that
yes, this situation is not goingto last forever.
It's going to change.
It's like I I tell myself, youknow, I'm finding my, you know,
I'm telling my kids that, youknow, this whole pandemic, it's
not going to last forever.
It's going to change.

(51:43):
You know, I'm I'm tired ofpeople saying, yeah, I know, I'm
tired of people saying, oh, itcouldn't get worse, it couldn't
get worse.
It's like, let's start sayingsomething different.
Let's start saying, like, it'sgoing to get better.

SPEAKER_01 (51:54):
It's going to change.
Yeah.
It doesn't even have to getbetter necessarily.
It's just going to be different.

SPEAKER_04 (51:59):
But it's going to change.
It is.
And, you know, it's true.

SPEAKER_01 (52:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
All those people in your lifewho said when you were young,
well, don't worry, it getsbetter when you get older.
No, no.
They're lying to you and they'relying to themselves.
It didn't get better.

SPEAKER_04 (52:13):
But things will change.

SPEAKER_01 (52:15):
Yes, it didn't get better.
You just got way better atdealing with it.
So it doesn't affect you thesame way.
You learned the tools to takecare of yourself that weren't
available to you when you were arowdy teenager.
Like that they're just, it'sbetter in a sense.
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (52:33):
So as an adult dealing with estrangement, have
you found any resources or linksor books that you kind of go
back to that kind of helped you,you know, whether it's directly
or indirectly related toestrangement, I whatever, if
it's related to your story ingeneral, you know, um, you
already shared with us uh oneresource, you know, about the

(52:54):
uh, you know, free education.
Uh, if you're yeah, um, that wasgreat.
Do you have anything else thatyou want to share that our
listeners can go back to andcheck out?

SPEAKER_01 (53:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
So because I'm studyingpsychotherapy and uh psychology,
um, which has been the you knowone of the biggest helpers in my
life is instead of being in acounseling office, becoming a
counselor helps you change as aperson.
Um there are a few things that Iknow to be true with not only

(53:27):
people who've been estranged,but you know, people who've
grown up in foster care, peoplewho've grown up in normal,
quote, air quote, normalhouseholds that are are dealing
with mental illness.
There are some resources thatare available to you that you
might feel are you know like afailure if you have to call them
or or or talk to a counselor,and you're not a failure.
You are not a failure when youreach out for help.

(53:49):
You are right, you you are asstrong as you could be when you
reach out to some of theseresources and say, hey, listen,
I'm not doing so good.
I need some help.
Because you know, that's that'snot a sign of weakness.
So if there's anyone out therewho's dealing with, you know,
depression, suicidal thoughts,any mental health crisis at all
that you know needs immediateattention, I I would absolutely

(54:13):
encourage you to call theSuicide Hotline of British
Columbia or Canada, which isavailable 24 hours a day, seven
days a week, and that's 1-800suicide.
So that's gonna be1-800-784-2433.
And those people, they they'renot counselors, but they want to
talk to you, just like I want totalk to you.
We want to make sure that you'reokay.

(54:34):
These people are here to supportyou and give you the resources
that they have on hand to getyou the help that you need in
the area that you're living in.
And then also, if you need totalk to a counselor, you know,
something a little bit more indepth, maybe just to work on
something quickly.
Um, there are free counselorsavailable, again, pretty much 24

(54:56):
hours a day.
But unfortunately, they have aspecific cutoff age and it's 25
years old.
So a youth in Canada isconsidered to be 25 or under.
So if you are 25 and under andstruggling with some mental
health issues and you need tospeak with a counselor, you
absolutely can talk to the kids'helpline, which is different

(55:17):
than the suicide awareness,suicide prevention line.
And that's 1-800-668-6868.
And you know, it's not just forkids, even though they named it
that, you know, veryvicariously, like it's for 25
and under.
So if you're a young adult andyou're having some issues,
please call the kids helpline.
They would love to talk to you.

(55:40):
And then also, we have like acouple of other resources.
If you don't have access to aphone to call somebody, if you
have access to the internet, youcan actually go directly to
youthinbc.com, and they have aton of resources that will
connect you directly withsomebody who is, you know, able
to maybe help you through acrisis.

(56:01):
And then also mindcheck.ca,which is a bc sanctioned website
that's absolutely fantastic.
They have counselors on hand, sothat's just mindcheck.ca.
Okay.
And uh so and anybody who hasexperienced any severe sexual
trauma or needs any resources asfar as sexual education goes,
you can actually go towww.scarlateen.com.

(56:23):
That is one of the besteducational resources on the
planet.
So as an as an educator or aparent, if you're uncertain on
how you're going to approachyour young, young teenagers, you
know, on how to bring up thesekinds of topics and make sure
that your children are are youknow engaging in in healthy
behaviors that aren't going tobe damaging to them as an adult.

(56:44):
I would strongly recommend thisresource because it has an
education, like an educatorsection.
It's phenomenal.
And then it also has a sectionthat you can just hand it to
your kids and be like, listen,I'm uncomfortable talking to you
about this, but I want you tohave the resources.
Here you go.
So ScarlettTeen.com, justincredible.
So those are the resources thatI'm familiar with on a regular

(57:04):
basis because I do a lot of workwith youth.
You know, I do have interactionswith work through the Christian
fellowship, stuff like that.
I'm not a Christian, but they'rea great resource to connect with
youth who are sort of in crisis.
So that's what I do with myspare time.

SPEAKER_04 (57:20):
Yeah, I was gonna ask you, you know, who is
Alexander now?
What is he up to now?
We talked about you know, a lotabout what you went through and
kind of what you learned, buthow are you doing now?
And like, what's your next move?

SPEAKER_01 (57:37):
Well, that's the fun part, is that I have no idea.
Um so I'm a father.
I'm a very, very, very excitedto be a father kind of father.
I love my children, I love themmore than I love my own life.
I love them to a point whereit's probably unhealthy, but I
don't care because I love them.

(57:58):
And uh so I'm a you know, I'm afull-time employee, a full-time
student, and a single dad nowjust recently, because my wife
has decided that she wants to,you know, maybe do something a
little bit healthier forherself.
Um so you know, the life lookspretty bleak as far as those
things go.

(58:19):
But from from my point of view,I'm excited.
I don't know what's gonnahappen.
And and maybe that's just mychange in outlook as I get
older.
But uh, you know, I've got thisgreat educational opportunity,
and and I'm gonna have thisopportunity to, you know, help
people who are in mycircumstance who are you know
screaming for help and and youknow that just wasn't available

(58:41):
to them.
Maybe I I'll be able to make adifference for somebody with
this experience that I have, andalso for my children.

SPEAKER_04 (58:48):
Like, I think you have.
I think that when you were youngand vulnerable and you know,
exposed, it was very scary andyou were delicate, but you know,
and you had to grow and youknow, learn how to grow in a
very, very harsh, harshenvironment, which has made you

(59:08):
very, very strong.
And I can definitely see see thecontrast in how you responded to
things then as you respond tothings now.
I mean, like you said, thingslook pretty bleak, but you have,
but you're happy.
You have a happy outlook and ahealthy attitude towards, you
know, I don't know what's gonnahappen, but you know, hey, life

(59:29):
is good and you know, it'schanging and there's things to
explore, there's things tolearn.
Um, you know, and I and I lovethe honesty and the authenticity
about I don't really know.
And that's okay because it'slike there's so many things in
the world, there's so many jobsto do, there's so many resources
at your disposal, like you weresaying.

(59:49):
By the way, for our listeners, II'm going to do some work after
this episode uh closes up hereto see if I can find the uh
equivalent.
uh or nearest equivalent to someof these suggestions uh in US
link form as well um for our USlisteners too.
So I wanted to put that out justto make that a note for myself

(01:00:12):
when I go back and listen tothis episode.
But uh anyway, I I've definitelyseen your growth and I've
definitely seen how you'vechanged and how um you know your
the things that you've learned.
I mean I don't know if I can askthis you know on the air but I
mean how old are you?
Because I think that's might putthings into some perspective

(01:00:33):
too.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:34):
I am 27.

SPEAKER_04 (01:00:36):
My goodness see I've learned I've learned I mean some
people would say I'm a baby.
I mean I'm getting close to 40here so you know it's starting
to sting a little bit but um Iknow that there's still plenty
more for me to learn and I wantto thank thank you for coming on
the show.
I don't know if there is thereanything else that you want to

(01:00:57):
say or add uh that we kind ofmissed or you know we want to
touch base on um we definitelywant to see more of you uh and
to our listeners we're gonna youyou're gonna see more of him
don't worry but before we closeup this episode you know do you
have anything else you kind ofwant to share sure so the
examples that I give about mylife as a very young person it's

(01:01:20):
hard to keep in perspective frompeople who haven't experienced
childhood trauma to understandthat you know we as kids we
didn't know that we wereexperiencing trauma we you know
we didn't know that these thingslike sexual abuse for us was so
common that it it just was likesomething that happened after
breakfast like it's time to doyour chores and now it's time to

(01:01:42):
go lay down on the bathroomfloor.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:43):
You know there these were not unusual things for us.
And then having to go tosomebody as an adult and and you
know you're looking at theperspective of these problems
that people have as adults whonow understand and may even be
re-traumatized from a differentperspective whereas like you
know we're this is this is justthis Tuesday it's Tuesday.

(01:02:06):
This is the day that thishappens like it's whatever I'm
gonna go you know play with playwith the kids after this like
I'm gonna go find a stick tobeat against some you know like
you'll build a tree housesomewhere yeah exactly it was
not unusual.
And so and we were in acommunity where this was rampant
and full of of other childrenthat this kind of activity was

(01:02:30):
happening to with adults whowere just as confused as we were
as little children because theydidn't either believe that it
could be happening didn't wantto believe it could be happening
or just didn't care right ifthey just you know if it's a
small community and you knowthese things may have even
happened to them and and forthem to just like completely

(01:02:50):
turn a blind eye you have tokeep an eye out for the people
around you.

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:55):
You have to look and and watch for those red flags
because if you don't saysomething you can expect that no
one else will right yeah anddon't be afraid to be a little
bit nosy too because like yousaid you know yeah absolutely
they brushed you up polished youup brought took the toys down
made you look normal for a fewminutes I mean that's kind of

(01:03:15):
what my life was like I feltlike was like sometimes I felt
like we looked nice when we wereout in public and then when we
were at home it was just not itwas just the opposite you know
and uh yeah nobody saw thatthere were people who did see
glimpses of it and and stillchose to do nothing you know and
say nothing and that wasdamaging it's like you could

(01:03:38):
have changed things for me youknow a lot sooner.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:41):
You could have you could have saved me.
Yeah yeah and and so that's aperspective that we have to
remember to keep out of ourminds because it's coming from a
place of want.
It's like saying I don't havethis thing I can't have this
thing and so I'm less because ofit.

(01:04:01):
Try and I encourage you and yourlisteners as just as a as a sort
of positive reinforcement tochange the way that you think
about these things that havehappened to you or were because
they're not you there'ssomething that happened that you
can't change.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:16):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:17):
But they happened and you can't change them.

SPEAKER_04 (01:04:21):
Right.
And real quick before before wego I wanted to touch base on
something that we kind ofchatted about the other day and
I know AC, he's been here onstandby for this episode um and
he has a closing thought that hewould like to share so I'm gonna
give him you know a coupleseconds head start uh or uh give
myself just give him a coupleseconds trying to word this

(01:04:42):
properly here um we talked youtalked about something we
touched a little bit on talktherapy I wanted to hear what
your what your opinion was aboutthat and how we kind of compared
that uh talk therapy to umexplosive diarrhea.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:00):
Yeah that's my favorite oh man so just to throw
one of those shameless plugs outthere um there is a really
wonderful science podcast calledumologies and it's a just a
science communication podcastthat just it sounds kind of
boring for for nerdy people butit actually is like Bill Mye the
science guy with uh anabsolutely hilarious host and

(01:05:24):
she makes learning about youknow the the the the strangest
things in science absolutelyjust like unbearably fan
fascinating um so she's greatand she runs some advertisements
on her podcast now um where shedidn't before but that was just
to maintain fun so she couldcontinue to be a to be a content
creator and so she she talkswith a talk therapist and I

(01:05:47):
actually managed to get a holdof the same talk therapist just
just to have a discussion withthem through my you know just
for educational reasons umbecause I'm looking into um you
know what I want to do after Ifinish my education and uh so
she explained to me that talktherapy which I always I always
hated it I hated talk therapy itwas just it was just such a

(01:06:08):
silly thing like why would Ijust go talk to this person?
They don't give me any resourcesthey don't show me how to be a
better person.
There's no like you know watchmy finger back and forth while I
tap on you simply you know wetalk about your trauma.
There's nothing like that goingon.
Right.
And so she kind of bundles talktherapy up into a fart which is
great.
I just I love it.

(01:06:28):
Talk therapy is like if you'vereally got a fart and you hold
it in it's just gonna rot insideof you.
Right?
It's just it's gonna be bad.
And I like to I like to chalk itup to just bad diarrhea.
So you got all this bad stuffinside of you and and you know
you're in a relationship you'renot communicating really well
say with your partner or yourfriend or whoever you know you

(01:06:50):
there's something happening andyou hold it in and after a while
it it makes you sick and all ofa sudden that stuff's got to
come out.
Whether it comes out slowly andgently and you know in handle
like you know cleanable chunksor if you have explosive
diarrhea it's going up the wallsit's hitting everyone in the

(01:07:13):
vicinity everything that youtouch is going to be covered in
the shit that you've kept insideof you forever and it's gonna
ruin you.
So it actually turns out thatthe psychology behind talk
therapy is just amazing.
It's not for everybody.
It's not for people with seriousmental disabilities or
illnesses.
If you have schizophrenia youshouldn't go see a talk

(01:07:35):
therapist or you should see atalk therapist in conjunction
with a psychiatrist because theyare going to help you and help
medicate you and they are adoctor of psychiatry going to
see a psychologist to talk abouthow you feel may not be super
effective if you have some ofthese you know these lesser
function disabilities orconditions mental mental

(01:07:57):
conditions so you should not youknow just rely on talk therapy.
And if you're in talk therapyand it's not working for you
because you have some some ofthese kinds of problems you
probably should continue maybethat therapeutic relationship
alongside another type oftherapy so that that that was my

(01:08:18):
favorite analogy was your youryour personal stuff is like a
fart or bad diarrhea and ifyou're gonna hold it in it's
gonna be really messy and youshould probably go buy some some
some cleaner because it's it'sit's gonna be a problem.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:34):
Right.
No I felt like that too I feltlike uh you know nobody else
could handle hearing my stufflike nobody wanted to hear it my
family didn't want to hear itmade everyone uncomfortable like
you know nobody wants to bearound when someone farts it's
just like ew gross you know justgo in the corner go in the
bathroom you know wherever doyour thing you know bring a

(01:08:57):
friend if you need if you needsupport you know it's it's kind
of like that and I felt likewhen I first went to counseling
yeah it was like spewing outeverything and but that was his
job and he didn't mind he's justlike it's okay the shit's my
deal just go for it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:12):
Yes and that's that's what I love about therapy
and why I want to be atherapist.
I want to be all kinds oftherapists but I can't choose
all of them because I would bedead by the time I was finished
the education required.

SPEAKER_04 (01:09:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:23):
Right all I want to do is have you shit on me.
Like that's it.
I want to sit there and let youshit all over me or fart in my
in my in my office and that's aterrible thing to say but it's
not because I like it.
It's not because the you knowthe heavy stuff that you're
bringing to put on my shouldersis gonna weigh me down or or you

(01:09:44):
know is you know I don't thinkmuch of it because my shit's way
heavier than your shit so likewhat do you have to complain
about?
I never think that way.
I want you to come in to myoffice one day when I have a
private practice and I want youto unload it all because then
you don't have to carry itanymore and I know how to file
it away in the drawer.

(01:10:05):
I know how to take it off myshoulders I'm trained to take it
off my shoulders and put it in adrawer and think about it from a
point of view that isn'ttraumatizing.
And and most counselors are veryvery good at compartmentalizing
the stuff that you have tobring.
So if you ever feel like youknow nobody wants to hear your
shit or it's not important orlike most victims say this is

(01:10:28):
like the number one thing thatvictims say is like oh you know
what people are going throughway worse stuff than I am I
don't have to like it's you knowI don't need to talk to somebody
about it.
There are people there there arechildren starving in Africa like
what do I have to complain aboutwell even counselors need
counselors sometimes andeveryone I think everyone in the

(01:10:48):
world should have a therapistbecause they want to hear you
they they want to they want theywant to hear your problems they
that's it's not and it's notbecause they're being paid they
chose a career path that's notlucrative trust me it's not it's
really it's not the the bestcareer choice to take and you

(01:11:09):
know they they they didn'tchoose it because they want to
get paid to sit in an office andwear a tweet jacket with with
you know elbow patches and looksmarter than you and and sit on
a pedestal.
That's not what they're therefor.
They're not there to judge youthey're there to unjudge you and
unjudge yourself and they'rethere to give you the resources
you need to grow and learn howto communicate because nothing

(01:11:29):
is as important as learning howto communicate there is no
example on earth.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:35):
I I I can offer a personal endorsement of um what
Alexander is actually bringingto the table because my my first
experience with you I don't evenknow if you really remember oh I
remember everything.
You observed I I guess just bylike looking at my facial

(01:11:57):
expressions my mannerisms thethe way I joked about my my
childhood and whatnot that therewas like some deeply rooted pain
and trauma there and you hadencouraged me to share with you
like you you made it reallyobvious that you were a soft
place to land and that you werea sympathetic ear and you were
not a judgmental person and Iremember unloading on you and I

(01:12:21):
was in tears and you held me Imean like for those who don't
know I'm 21 years older thanthis guy.
He was like pretty close tobeing a kid when we first had
this experience and it stuckwith me it's changed my whole
approach to interacting withother people I've learned that
there is an importance inlistening and in reserving

(01:12:43):
judgment on certain things.
And I remember just feelingvalidated so much by by your
open ear and just when I thoughtlike it it couldn't get any
better you know the the theconversation took an unexpected

(01:13:03):
curve you know because I hadshared my stuff with with with
you you shared your stuff withme and I immediately felt guilty
because your story was so muchmore dramatic than mine.
And yeah and that's a you that'sa big no and and the thing is is
like you immediately went rightback to comforting me saying

(01:13:25):
look like the worst thing that'shappened to you is like the
worst thing that you can feelbecause it's your story.
It's not a competition whosetrauma is worse.
And I learned a couple of thingsone is to listen to people whose
stories that I think are kind oflike bullshit just because I
think my story is like morepainful and they don't have the

(01:13:46):
right to hurt.
I also learned not to be ashamedto share my story with people
that have gone through somebigger things.
Like we're all there to supporteach other ideally and all of
your education Alexander aside II think you were uniquely
qualified either by design orthrough your experiences to do
what you're choosing to do.

(01:14:08):
And you had said at the top ofthe episode that people are will
are are welcome to reach out toyou and I would encourage
anybody who's listening to thistake this guy up on his offer
he's not bullshitting you.
He is hands down one of thesweetest people I've ever had
the pleasure of knowing not justa sweet guy but an insightful

(01:14:33):
bright and caring guy who youknow like if he could get
through my tough exterior andstart me on a path of softening
up I think he can help anybodybecause I was a real piece of
shit before I met you I rememberthat conversation because we
were sitting on that stupid uhknot couch the uh the backseat

(01:14:56):
of the van.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:57):
Yeah at our friend's house yeah his couch his his
knot couch so yeah that thatthat's basically my piece so
well I appreciate it and uh yeahand you know what just for just
for fun just for for giggles isum as much as I love helping

(01:15:18):
people and working a full-timejob and taking care of my
children my services are notalways going to be free to those
who are able to pay for what I'mwhat I'm doing.
So I you know I try to make mytime as available as humanly
possible to anybody who needs mewhenever they need me and I
don't charge anyone who wants tojust have a talk or need some

(01:15:39):
help you know I really honestlyencourage you to you know if
you're having a hard time and Ican change your day or your life
or just this week shoot me amessage.
I I'm I'm you know I talk a loton this podcast but I also know
how to shut up and listen and uhyou know if you want to have a
chat with me I am I'm all earsso you know and I'm not gonna

(01:16:01):
charge you I'm not gonna youknow make you you know sign a a
counseling contract with mebecause I again like I said
before I'm not a counselor I'mbecoming a counselor but I'm not
so and we'll make sure that weinclude links to your contact
information and any of theresources you've mentioned in
this week's show notes as well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:21):
Cool.

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:22):
Yeah well Alexander it was awesome having you on the
show.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:27):
No thanks it was awesome to be on the show.

SPEAKER_04 (01:16:30):
And to our listeners again uh as always like follow
and share on our social mediaplatforms you can find us at
www.wtbb pod dot com and emailus at wtbbodcast at gmail dot
com and uh thanks for listeningto when the bow breaks podcast