September 24, 2025 • 27 mins
Ashlee [00:00:00]:
I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with substances and maybe they do get put in a situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone. And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting help, honestly. Right. Being so vulnerable to open up and get the help. She got all that back. And that's hope that I think sometimes someone just needs to hear.
Jennifer [00:00:26]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
Ashlee [00:00:29]:
And I'm Ashlee.
Jennifer [00:00:30]:
And we're excited. It's just Ashlee and I today, no guest, but I think we were pretty intentional and it just being you and I today, we had such a great time getting to talk with Marian Crossgrove, who was on our last episode. So if you haven't heard that, please go listen this episode. Not like as much sense if you're not listening to Marian's episode. I Ashlee, you and I just talked about substance abuse, the power of Marianne's message, and I think kind of wanted to continue the conversation.
Ashlee [00:01:02]:
Yeah, absolutely. I think when we were planning all of this, we were like, we have to at some point talk about substance abuse and talk about why it's so prevalent within the first responder community, because substance abuse really does impact not only our first responders, but their families as well. And Marian's story is so powerful that she was the best person I think we could have had to start it off. And so it's important for both of us to circle back around and have the conversation.
Jennifer [00:01:28]:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Marian does do phenomenal in sharing her story, which it belongs to her. And I just really want to respect that. I think one thing that when listening, you know, you and I know Marian so well, and we just hopped into our conversation to just fill people in who have not had, are not as lucky to have met her in person, that she has returned to the first responder world. So she stepped away from a bit and from what she shares, you know, was really pursued to say, like, hey, you're really good in this career. And I think one thing, we talk a lot with first responders. It's such a calling. And that Marian's struggle with substance abuse did not let her calling not be her calling anymore.
Jennifer [00:02:13]:
Like, that she got to step away and heal and got to come back and into the first responder world. So I think that's important for people to know a part of her story as well.
Ashlee [00:02:22]:
I do think that's important because when I look at so many people that we run into. I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with substances and maybe they do get put in a situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone. And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting help, honestly. Right. Being so vulnerable to open up and get the help. She got all that back. And that's hope that I think sometimes someone just needs to hear. It doesn't have to always be gone.
Ashlee [00:02:54]:
I mean, every story is different, but it's that hope of, like, I can get help, I can get better, and I can maybe, you know, regain everything that I've had.
Jennifer [00:03:03]:
I mean, hope is the most powerful thing that I think I offer anyone in, you know, clinically and in a therapeutic setting. But also just in general, like, hope is a powerful thing. A lot of talk in the substance abuse world is rock bottom things like that. And wherever you're at, you have to have a belief that things can get better, it can get better. And that's a hard thing to navigate.
Ashlee [00:03:26]:
Yeah. So why do you think I'll kind of throw this question at you? I know we have been talking about it a little bit, but why? I guess in your clinical world or just personal world. Right. Like, we grew up with this. I know for a fact that alcohol specifically is a dang tradition in our family. Like, you drink, right? Like you go to football games, you go to baseball games, you go to music festivals and you're drinking and you're kind of looked at weird if you're not. But that was the same for all my uncles who are in law enforcement across the board. Right.
Ashlee [00:03:56]:
It's a very welcomed thing in first responder communities. In your opinion, like, why do you think substance abuse can happen so naturally amongst a first responder?
Jennifer [00:04:05]:
I mean, I think that's a really good question. I do think it is a little bit in the fiber of the career in terms of this is something that we do to, you know, blow off steam or this is what you do. You know, I just think it's a real accepted coping mechanism. I think a big part of it, and I think that is its own conversation too, in terms of, y
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(00:00):
I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with
substances and maybe they do getput in a situation where their
job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they
feel their identity is now completely gone.
And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting
help, honestly, right, Being so vulnerable to open up and get
the help, she got all that back.And that's hope that I think
(00:23):
sometimes someone just needs to hear.
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
And I'm Ashley. And we're excited.
It's just Ashley and I today, noguest, but I think we were
pretty intentional in it just being you and I today.
We had such a great time. I'm getting to talk with Marian
Crossgrove, who was on our last episode.
(00:44):
So if you haven't heard that, please go listen.
This episode's not make as much sense if you're not listen to
Marian's episode. Ashley, you and I just talked
about substance abuse, the powerof Marian's message, and I think
kind of wanted to continue the conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. I think when we were planning
(01:04):
all this, we were like, we have to at some point talk about
substance abuse and talk about why it's so prevalent within the
first responder community, because substance abuse really
does impact not only our first responders, but their families
as well. And Marian's story is so
powerful that she was the last person I think we could have had
to start it off. And so it's important for both
(01:25):
of us to circle back around and have the conversation.
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, Marian does
do phenomenal and sharing her story, which it belongs to her
and I just really want to respect that.
I think one thing that when saying, you know, you and I know
Marian so well and we just hopped into our conversation to
just fill people and who have not had are not as lucky to have
(01:47):
met her in person that she has return to the first responder
world. So she stepped away from a bit
and from what she shares, you know, was really pursued to say
like, hey, you're really good inthis career.
And I think one thing we talk a lot with first responders, it's
such a calling and that Marian struggle with substance abuse
(02:09):
did not let her calling not be her calling anymore like that.
She got to step away and heal and got to come back into the
first responder world. So I think that's important for
people to know a part of her story as well.
I do think that's important because when I look at so many
people that we run into, I do know a lot of first responders
who struggle with substances andmaybe they do get put in a
(02:31):
situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their
job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone.
And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting
help, honestly, right, being so vulnerable to open up and get
the help. She got all that back.
And that's hope that I think some sometimes someone just
(02:51):
needs to hear it doesn't have toalways be gone.
I mean, every story is different, but it's that hope of
like, I can get help, I can get better, and I can maybe, you
know, regain everything that I've had.
I mean, hope is the most powerful thing that I think
Ioffer anyone in, you know, clinically and in a therapeutic
setting, but also just in general, like hope is a powerful
(03:12):
thing. A lot of talk in the substance
abuse world is rock bottom, things like that.
And wherever you're at, we have to have a belief that things can
get better. They can't get better, and
that's a hard thing to navigate.Yeah.
So why do you think I'll kind ofthrow this question at you?
I know we have been talking about it a little bit, but why?
(03:33):
I guess in your clinical world or just personal world, right?
Like we grew up with this. I know for a fact that alcohol
specifically is a Dang traditionin our family.
Like you drink, right? Like you go to football games,
you go to baseball games, you goto music festivals and you're
drinking and you're kind of looked at weird if you're not.
But that was the same for all myuncles who were in law
(03:54):
enforcement across the board, right?
It's a very welcomed thing in first responder communities.
In your opinion, like why do youthink substance abuse can happen
so naturally amongst a first responder?
I mean, I think that's a really good question.
I do think it is a little bit inthe fiber of the career in terms
of this is something that we do to, you know, blow off steam or
(04:17):
this is what you do, you know, Ijust think it's a real accepted
coping mechanism. I think big part of it, and I
think that is its own conversation too, in terms of,
you know, obviously, I think we're specifically talking about
alcohol, but we'll use the like big term of substance abuse and
there's other things outside of of alcohol that people, you
(04:40):
know, hope this. I think that's important to
differentiate some, but I think our focus today will be alcohol.
So I'm going to put that in. So, you know, I think obviously
the culture and I think what we've talked about and how our
conversation started about just what first responders support
the Anita and the conversation around mental health.
And like we're in 2025, I think they've made mountains move and
(05:04):
some of those conversations. And yet you're looking at a
career and a profession that's been around for centuries.
And I think in terms of that, people utilize what they have.
And I think a big part of that was, again, if you think about a
culture and you think about first responding culture, you
(05:24):
know, culture is this kind of underlying wave that we all kind
of ride together. And I think that, you know,
alcohol can be seen as being used as the celebration and how
quickly something that can be utilized to blow off steam, to
celebrate can really say, well, this is the only thing that
(05:47):
helps sleep. This is the only way I can
really or in my brain that it respond to.
I think of it as this thing thatturns into abuse.
It's the frog that gets boiled in the water.
You know, we don't notice necessarily the change in
temperature until we're cooked. Yeah, I think you explained that
(06:08):
so beautifully. And I really, really loved how
you kind of went to this notion of, well, alcohol is the only
thing that helps me sleep, and alcohol is the only thing that
kind of numbs anything else. And I do hear that often.
I hear that often in my office, too, like when people are coming
to get help and they're realizing maybe I am drinking
too much. It really is this notion of it
(06:30):
turns into everything We're feeling like we're not getting
by ourselves. I feel like that's so important
to recognize. Well, I just feel like it's so
important to recognize because we often don't realize we're
going down a slippery slope withit either.
We can be like, oh, this is justhelping me sleep.
So I have one a night, right? This is the guys are doing it.
(06:51):
I'm going out with the guys after work today, you know, and
so it's normalized and Marian talked about that.
Like, what do you like? I'm just catching up with the
guys. I'm hanging out with them.
They're doing it so I can do it.And how quickly that can
transform our life into a problem, right?
And we don't even recognize it until it's too far gone.
Absolutely. I think the place that the
family plays in that is important.
(07:13):
You know, Ashley and I use this thing called the diagnostic
manual. It's really thick and it's no
fun to read, so I don't recommend it.
It's. No fun to read.
I really appreciate what definesaddiction in that manual, which
is what we would utilize to diagnose somebody.
And in that kind of a, somethingI would do in my office with
(07:37):
clients, as times is to say, is somebody who has a drink every
night an alcoholic? Is somebody who uses alcohol
just on the weekends but gets blackout, is that an alcoholic?
Is somebody who has their spousesay they have a problem, is that
(07:57):
an alcoholic? And it's really interesting what
defines addiction. And really it is about
functioning, yeah. Can you meet the things that you
need to meet in a day? And, and there's people that can
drink and do that. That's one way to look at it.
The other thing is, is not just one.
(08:19):
So people can be able to meet all their functioning tasks, but
then they get a DUI. So there's people intervention
that happens, you know, that cansay there's a problem.
The reason I bring up the familyhere and where it plays in this
diagnostic manual is somebody that you have a personal
relationship with says that you have a problem with alcohol or a
(08:40):
substance. It leads to that.
And so it can't just, it's not just one of those, right?
Because we could have somebody in her life that's a teetotaler.
And, you know, they think somebody's got a problem if they
have one beer at a birthday party, you know, once a year,
right? Like people.
Yeah, directives on that. People get DUI just not being
(09:00):
lucky, you know, that one time that they weren't thinking like.
So that's not just that. It's not just I got so drunk
that I've missed work and got fired, you know, So it has to be
more than one of these areas in our lives that really kind of
mark off. And I think that family is an
(09:20):
important thing to look at sometimes when somebody's
struggling with addiction. And I think again, you know,
referencing back to Marian in terms of what she said, she met
all those, like she was able to make appointments and take her
kids to things and she was able to do those things.
I think that's a good example ofwhat you're saying in terms of
like, man, this can be somethingthat can really be going on for
(09:45):
a while, not recognize it. And yeah, our family does kind
of have a different look at things, don't they?
Yeah, and I think it's importantfor us, especially in here when
we're talking about what it's like to be children of first
responders, to talk about that personal piece.
I think we did such a great job when we talked about the
financial aspect and how it kindof impacted both of us and and
we kind of really honed in on that.
I remember being very young and it being so normalized, you
(10:09):
know, like, hey Ash, go get a beer, go get us a beer.
You know, your, you think it's fun, you run and you go grab
that beer, right? You think it's so funny and, and
it is right? There's, it's so hard for me
because there's great memories with my uncles and my family, my
dad, you know, with alcohol, Butthen there's also some extremely
negative scary memories with alcohol.
And, and I think growing up withit, like me personally, now I'm
(10:32):
not, I feel like an outcast in my family a lot of the times And
I feel like I get made fun of a lot of the times because I'm not
one to, I don't, I could have nothing and have the best time,
right? And like, literally when I say
like my family can look at you sideways, like what girl, you're
at a bears game and you're, you're not pounding them like
what's wrong with you, right? But it's, it's just like, I
(10:53):
think my anxiety has really developed in knowing that like,
yeah, alcohol, while there's funsides to it too.
I've seen how it can also turn somebody angry and I've seen how
it can also turn something just really bad.
And I've heard stories and I, you know what I mean?
And yet it was so normalized forme, like going up my dad, going
out to the bar after work to hang out with his friends.
(11:15):
And it's never no offense like they were never just like 1 beer
drinkers. Right, right.
And I guess I could never understand that concept as I got
old enough to realize like what alcohol was like.
I've always kind of had this mindset of like, why do you have
to have that to have fun? Right, right.
Well, and I definitely had that childhood too, of like, go get
(11:35):
me a beer. And we had refrigerator that I
knew exactly where the beer was.Like that definitely been my
experience too. And I think, again, it's that
whole thing of culture. Like, I mean, it wasn't dad
drinking at home by himself likeit was we're out with other
police families. Yeah, other, you know, not
(11:58):
always police, but, you know, other families.
And drinking was definitely a big part of it.
And I mean, I enjoy drinking to this day.
And. But it's also that thing of
like, I can take her leave. Yes, sadly, for some people
that's just not their experience.
Yeah. And there can be lots that
causes that. You know, there can be how
(12:21):
substances can be used as a coping mechanism and some of
that can be a genetic thing. I have experience working with
people with drug and alcohol problems.
And you know, it's sometimes just like this DNA stuff, right?
Like for real. I always joke.
I'm like, I am as pale as can beand if I go out with no sunblock
(12:44):
on, I'm going to get sunburned. Like that's just the way I was
made. And, and unfortunately,
sometimes that happens with people when it comes to
substances. Some people can have a drink and
be fine and somebody's DNA says I can't just have one and I'll
have to keep going again. And that's just the luck of the
draw sometimes, which is hard tolike.
You have to have that insight and knowledge to know that for
(13:08):
sure. I like that you just said that
because I think something that keeps bringing coming up for me
in clinical world is my first responders that struggle with
substance abuse, the amount of trauma that they have had in
their lives. I'm always like, Oh my gosh.
And then we mix in genetics and we mix in everything.
But I don't know that I have yetto.
Maybe I'm just again, my scope of just who I'm seeing, right?
(13:30):
But I have yet to meet somebody who doesn't have this, like,
horrific trauma mixed in with it, where it's easy for me to
understand that, yeah, I didn't want to be vulnerable and go get
help for these things. I thought I could handle it,
right? Like, I thought I was doing the
right thing. And then substances got
introduced to me and now I just can't stop.
Well, and a couple of things with that too.
I recognize the first responder world is 24/7 and you know what
(13:57):
can be open real late. And.
Real early, I'm not open. Real late and real early, you
know, you've had a rough one andyou need to process and have a
therapeutic session. Well, these are my hours.
But you know what is open? A bar, you know.
What fair there's? 24 hour liquor stores.
I think again from this like brought let's take shame away.
(14:17):
Let's understand like hey, theseare some things that are
happening. Like I don't want to think about
this. And a fifth will help me not
think about about that. Like I think that that's a
really innocent thing. And you know, when I've worked
with people with substances, like, I'm very honest.
Like they're really trauma work and therapy stuff.
(14:39):
It's not easy, no. Way easier to go and get a
fifth, like, I mean, yeah, like that is easy.
It's the cost though. I mean, there is something that
cost you down the road. So my brain was going there
right when you said this, and I might make some people mad when
I say this and like notorious for that because you know me, I
(15:02):
like to speak the truth and I like to call things as I see it.
And we're in this culture that says, Hey, it's OK to drink.
Oh my God, drink, drink, drink, right.
Like we make fun of people. I've seen that a million times
over where a first responders like no man, like I'm good, like
I don't drink. And they're like, ah, like
you're, you know, they make fun of them, right, And that's fine.
Whatever, it's a part of it. I get that, but then we have,
(15:23):
then we go to the other extreme and I've seen this time and time
again where, OK, I am drinking and I'm drinking a lot.
I'm drinking a lot. And, and maybe that first
responder ends up getting in trouble, right?
Bites them in the ass and all ofa sudden you get that DUI or you
get something and everybody at your department knows.
And then all of a sudden it's a,Oh my gosh, hands off the what's
wrong with them? They got something wrong with
(15:45):
them. But there's no accountability to
taking that like, Oh yeah, we promote it, right, right.
Like it's so bizarre to me because I, I do see that often
too where I'm like, OK, and theycare.
Most people care. They're like, oh, I hope they
get better or I hope you know, but it's like also, This is why
it's so important to be knowledgeable on it and to be
insightful on it. You can't have it both ways.
(16:05):
You can't be like, hey, let's just go drink after a bad call
and drink after a bad call. But then when someone's in
critical need and that's what they decide to do, you're like,
oh, I don't, I don't know what to do with this.
Oh, I mean, I, I think you're right.
And I think it's. Sorry, that was like an ugly
truth, right? Right.
It's an ugly truth. I there's just too much cooking
up in my brain. You know, I think to that whole
(16:27):
thing of like, oh, I don't know what to do when somebody gets in
trouble in a situation like that.
Some of that is that. Well then I'll have to look at
my own. Yeah, true.
And I think sometimes people canbe teased for not drinking
because there's some envy of that.
Like yeah, 100%. And you know, that stuff can
(16:49):
really let that shame that we'refeeling internally can really
come out externally as well. This is random and I don't know
that it's on the same thing thatyou're talking about.
So just skip over it. But and again, you know, I'm
from a different generation. I am your elder and.
That. But I think that that speaks a
(17:10):
little bit into like my experience growing up and, you
know, how underage drinking was celebrated and, and culture and
movies and music and all that kind of stuff.
And I think about that in terms of, again, how people came back
from war and how they dealt withthings.
You know, it was alcohol. And I remember I was out of
(17:32):
college and come back and I was working a job in Louisville, and
there happened to be somebody there who's whose dad was also a
police officer. And, you know, it's a small
place. Oh, you know, my dad's.
And so we're talking. And something was sad.
I don't even remember. Again, this has been years ago,
this conversation. The guy said, yeah, yeah, my dad
(17:55):
doesn't drink at all because I probably made some, like, joke
about the FOP bar or something like that, you know, where I
spent. And he was like, yeah, no, my
dad doesn't drink. And I was just like, oh, OK.
And he reflected. He was like, yeah, my dad's very
religious. And I was like, oh, OK.
And he is like, yeah, I think you either choose religion or
(18:15):
you choose alcohol in terms of, like, you know, it was very
black and white. His response.
And, you know, he's about my ageand things like that.
And I thought that was a kind ofan interesting observation.
And again, this is in the late 1900s, I'm talking you guys.
So again, where it isn't, will Igo to my therapist?
(18:38):
It's not, hey, the department actually has this Wellness
program and I can go work out ormeet with a physical therapist
or are gym league is actually enjoyable.
It's I think there's more options nowadays and it's not
this kind of black and white thing.
(19:00):
And I think I had a point that connected me to what you said,
and I'm sorry I lost it. But no, don't be.
Sorry, was kind of an interesting reflection that it
feels like it's this black and white, right?
Like it's either you drink or you don't drink and not this
space in between, you know? Yeah, absolutely.
And my brain just went to how dowe combat it, right?
(19:22):
And I think for some reason, when you said going to the gym,
like stuff like that, I think about this, I'm like, as
therapist, I'm excited to have therapy becoming more prevalent
within the first responder community.
I feel like we really have made such great stride ending the
stigma. We still have a lot to do, but
it seems like a lot of first responders are open to therapy
now. But again, it's this notion of
(19:44):
just Wellness all around. Physical too, right?
Nutrition, all these things thatI think also play into a factor
of how does one get well. And I'm going to be honest with
you, substance abuse as a therapist is my hardest area.
It is the hardest thing for me to work with.
It's hard. And there's addictions in all
realms, especially with our first responders.
(20:04):
I know we maybe even mentioned this with Marian, right?
But there's like, you know, gambling and porn addictions and
all these things that yes, we are focusing heavy on alcohol
because again, that's our personal experience.
That's what we can talk to. But there's so much more out
there. But I will say.
Say that for someone to make that change, they have to be
dedicated and they have to want it.
It's a hard process and I can understand why a lot of people
(20:25):
don't go through with getting the help.
Again, I feel pretty fortunate. I have learned in this career
when I say never, that means theguarantee I'm gonna do it.
I can remember being in grudge in conversation with another
Polly or, you know, peer in school and was like, yeah, I
don't really want to work with people with addiction.
(20:46):
Like it's it's hard. Yeah.
I just, I don't think I want to do that.
Cut to me, of course, like running an IOP.
You know, I say never. And then here I am.
I do think it's exactly what you're right in terms of saying.
It can be impactful in so many ways, like addiction and what
(21:06):
addiction really looks like. It is something that intervenes
with our entire well-being. If it's the addiction, like I'm
avoiding going home because I'm going to go to the boat and bet,
or I'm from Louisville, I'm going to go bet on the ponies.
It is this thing that comes intoour lives that becomes
(21:28):
compulsive, like we have to do it in order to feel OK and what
it makes us give up in order to do that cost us something.
There's a cost involved. And it can be confusing because
it is this behavior. Just stop it.
Just stop it. And yet there are these driving
factors that are happening, be it emotionally, be it chemically
(21:53):
in our brains that is driving that bus.
It is insane. It is insane.
We could spend a whole episode on this and it's still, even
with learning about it over and over, I feel like I still have
to go back to my books and read it and break it down because it
is insane. The way these chemicals mess
with our brain and how the brainactually reacts to it and all
that's going on when we do use substances.
(22:15):
My mind is blown every time I try to learn.
I feel like I can't learn enoughabout it and yet I can never
understand it fully because it'sjust so complex.
It is. It absolutely is.
And I think, you know, Marian talked about this too, in terms
of like the stigma with first responders like, well, that's
not me, you know, I'm not a drunk.
(22:36):
And it's that way in which again, what addiction will do is
really skew, as I think the children like to say, delulu,
like I, you know, I think. You know you didn't.
I love it. Your delusion, like, oh, but I'm
not like this, so I'm OK. And again, to tie back to like,
that's where it's a complicated thing with family, but how our
(22:59):
families love us and they can really be a mirror that we don't
want to look into and saying like, hey, there's a problem or
this isn't working. Yeah, I do think when I, and
again, I can't make a blanket statement for everybody, but I
do think when I learn with my first responders a lot, it's
usually the spouse or someone inthe household who's the 1:00
calling it. Oh yeah.
(23:19):
Oh, I can't. I'll tell you how many first
responders I meet with in session.
And of course I ask about drug use, alcohol use, all the uses.
And no, like it's not really. I mean, my wife kind of, you
know, I'm like a course, your wife says that and we'll be
unpacking that. But, you know, kind of thing.
(23:39):
Hard to live in a culture that promotes something.
Yeah, that thing that's promotedturns into a real problem.
Like how unwind that? How do I still get to be a part
of this community? But I don't do the thing that
they do. And I think again, why Marian is
so incredible is she's a great example.
(23:59):
Yeah, if you can actually be very successful and not engage.
Well and and still keep your friendships and still have
connections with people it's. So true.
One thing I want to obviously mention is that you and I,
again, our little disclaimer, while we love, we would love to
be everyone's therapist and helpeveryone on this, on this
platform, we are not. And so it's just ideas and
(24:22):
concepts to take and, and maybe look at, but obviously someone
is struggling. You got to get more help.
And I would say that if we couldgive some tools or some
recommendations, I know for me, working with a lot of building
peer support and doing these things, it's knowing your
resources. Spend the time at the your
departments to know what's around you.
Are these treatment centers? Are they geared towards first
responders? Do they even take your
(24:44):
insurance, know the information to make sure that if someone
does finally come to you and they say, I need the help, you
get them to the appropriate places.
I think that I see that fall through a lot because it's like
all of a sudden, like, uh oh, where do we go?
You know, but there are a lot ofdifferent things out there now
and every area is different. And so like peer support teams,
(25:06):
admin people, right? Look into it, research it, go
talk to them, interview the places and see what you think.
Yeah. You know, I think Marion is a
great proponent of the STEPS program, and that's a Alcoholics
Anonymous. And it's interesting.
I mean, I think that there's great pillars in the book, which
(25:28):
is what a A is kind of built on.And these 12 steps that I don't
even think you have to have an addiction problem to say like
there's some great stuff in there about accountability,
about responsibility, about amends, like saying we're sorry,
you know, those are things whether you got a problem or you
don't have a problem, incrediblethings to like work and and grow
(25:51):
on. And while you say that, it's
also so incredible and helpful for the families to actually do
those same things and to be a part of that treatment process.
Oh, absolutely. I think this conversation could
honestly go on for days, right? Like, and, and I do think we'll
explore this further because I, again, there's so many topics
when it comes to substance abuseand 1st responders.
(26:11):
And we know that it is statistically higher for our
first responders than civilian population.
And so I think it is something we'll have to continue to hit
on, but it's just continuing to open the door.
I always say this, I know, repetitive, but we crack it open
and we just keep trying to push it open a little bit more and
more. Well, I think, I hope what our
listeners hear is like that we do want to have these
(26:32):
conversations about things that are a problem.
Like I don't think what we want to have this podcast and just
talk about kumbaya, rainbows andsunshine.
Like there are some things that are that are an underbelly with
this profession. And I think the more we get to
put light on it, we hope the healthier families, I mean,
(26:53):
that's why we're here. Families get to be.
Well, thank you guys for listening today.
I know that it's always hard to like wrap it up because I feel
like where do we leave it? But I wanted to leave it on some
resources, some tools, like we said, just spots of where you
can go with it. But really being ahead of it and
and staying on top of it becauseunfortunately every single
department, whether you're fire,whether you're police, whether
(27:14):
you are dispatched, whether you're EMS, what have you, like
it creeps up, it's gonna happen.And so you got to be prepared to
help your people when they need it.
Exactly. Exactly.
Well, Ashley, what do you alwayssay?
All right, guys, we're excited for next episode.
We'll see you all soon. But as always, when the call
hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you.
Thank you. Thanks.
I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with
substances and maybe they do getput in a situation where their
job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they
feel their identity is now completely gone.
And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting
help, honestly, right, Being so vulnerable to open up and get
the help, she got all that back.And that's hope that I think
(00:23):
sometimes someone just needs to hear.
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
And I'm Ashley. And we're excited.
It's just Ashley and I today, noguest, but I think we were
pretty intentional in it just being you and I today.
We had such a great time. I'm getting to talk with Marian
Crossgrove, who was on our last episode.
(00:44):
So if you haven't heard that, please go listen.
This episode's not make as much sense if you're not listen to
Marian's episode. Ashley, you and I just talked
about substance abuse, the powerof Marian's message, and I think
kind of wanted to continue the conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. I think when we were planning
(01:04):
all this, we were like, we have to at some point talk about
substance abuse and talk about why it's so prevalent within the
first responder community, because substance abuse really
does impact not only our first responders, but their families
as well. And Marian's story is so
powerful that she was the last person I think we could have had
to start it off. And so it's important for both
(01:25):
of us to circle back around and have the conversation.
Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, Marian does
do phenomenal and sharing her story, which it belongs to her
and I just really want to respect that.
I think one thing that when saying, you know, you and I know
Marian so well and we just hopped into our conversation to
just fill people and who have not had are not as lucky to have
(01:47):
met her in person that she has return to the first responder
world. So she stepped away from a bit
and from what she shares, you know, was really pursued to say
like, hey, you're really good inthis career.
And I think one thing we talk a lot with first responders, it's
such a calling and that Marian struggle with substance abuse
(02:09):
did not let her calling not be her calling anymore like that.
She got to step away and heal and got to come back into the
first responder world. So I think that's important for
people to know a part of her story as well.
I do think that's important because when I look at so many
people that we run into, I do know a lot of first responders
who struggle with substances andmaybe they do get put in a
(02:31):
situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their
job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone.
And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting
help, honestly, right, being so vulnerable to open up and get
the help. She got all that back.
And that's hope that I think some sometimes someone just
(02:51):
needs to hear it doesn't have toalways be gone.
I mean, every story is different, but it's that hope of
like, I can get help, I can get better, and I can maybe, you
know, regain everything that I've had.
I mean, hope is the most powerful thing that I think
Ioffer anyone in, you know, clinically and in a therapeutic
setting, but also just in general, like hope is a powerful
(03:12):
thing. A lot of talk in the substance
abuse world is rock bottom, things like that.
And wherever you're at, we have to have a belief that things can
get better. They can't get better, and
that's a hard thing to navigate.Yeah.
So why do you think I'll kind ofthrow this question at you?
I know we have been talking about it a little bit, but why?
(03:33):
I guess in your clinical world or just personal world, right?
Like we grew up with this. I know for a fact that alcohol
specifically is a Dang traditionin our family.
Like you drink, right? Like you go to football games,
you go to baseball games, you goto music festivals and you're
drinking and you're kind of looked at weird if you're not.
But that was the same for all myuncles who were in law
(03:54):
enforcement across the board, right?
It's a very welcomed thing in first responder communities.
In your opinion, like why do youthink substance abuse can happen
so naturally amongst a first responder?
I mean, I think that's a really good question.
I do think it is a little bit inthe fiber of the career in terms
of this is something that we do to, you know, blow off steam or
(04:17):
this is what you do, you know, Ijust think it's a real accepted
coping mechanism. I think big part of it, and I
think that is its own conversation too, in terms of,
you know, obviously, I think we're specifically talking about
alcohol, but we'll use the like big term of substance abuse and
there's other things outside of of alcohol that people, you
(04:40):
know, hope this. I think that's important to
differentiate some, but I think our focus today will be alcohol.
So I'm going to put that in. So, you know, I think obviously
the culture and I think what we've talked about and how our
conversation started about just what first responders support
the Anita and the conversation around mental health.
And like we're in 2025, I think they've made mountains move and
(05:04):
some of those conversations. And yet you're looking at a
career and a profession that's been around for centuries.
And I think in terms of that, people utilize what they have.
And I think a big part of that was, again, if you think about a
culture and you think about first responding culture, you
(05:24):
know, culture is this kind of underlying wave that we all kind
of ride together. And I think that, you know,
alcohol can be seen as being used as the celebration and how
quickly something that can be utilized to blow off steam, to
celebrate can really say, well, this is the only thing that
(05:47):
helps sleep. This is the only way I can
really or in my brain that it respond to.
I think of it as this thing thatturns into abuse.
It's the frog that gets boiled in the water.
You know, we don't notice necessarily the change in
temperature until we're cooked. Yeah, I think you explained that
(06:08):
so beautifully. And I really, really loved how
you kind of went to this notion of, well, alcohol is the only
thing that helps me sleep, and alcohol is the only thing that
kind of numbs anything else. And I do hear that often.
I hear that often in my office, too, like when people are coming
to get help and they're realizing maybe I am drinking
too much. It really is this notion of it
(06:30):
turns into everything We're feeling like we're not getting
by ourselves. I feel like that's so important
to recognize. Well, I just feel like it's so
important to recognize because we often don't realize we're
going down a slippery slope withit either.
We can be like, oh, this is justhelping me sleep.
So I have one a night, right? This is the guys are doing it.
(06:51):
I'm going out with the guys after work today, you know, and
so it's normalized and Marian talked about that.
Like, what do you like? I'm just catching up with the
guys. I'm hanging out with them.
They're doing it so I can do it.And how quickly that can
transform our life into a problem, right?
And we don't even recognize it until it's too far gone.
Absolutely. I think the place that the
family plays in that is important.
(07:13):
You know, Ashley and I use this thing called the diagnostic
manual. It's really thick and it's no
fun to read, so I don't recommend it.
It's. No fun to read.
I really appreciate what definesaddiction in that manual, which
is what we would utilize to diagnose somebody.
And in that kind of a, somethingI would do in my office with
(07:37):
clients, as times is to say, is somebody who has a drink every
night an alcoholic? Is somebody who uses alcohol
just on the weekends but gets blackout, is that an alcoholic?
Is somebody who has their spousesay they have a problem, is that
(07:57):
an alcoholic? And it's really interesting what
defines addiction. And really it is about
functioning, yeah. Can you meet the things that you
need to meet in a day? And, and there's people that can
drink and do that. That's one way to look at it.
The other thing is, is not just one.
(08:19):
So people can be able to meet all their functioning tasks, but
then they get a DUI. So there's people intervention
that happens, you know, that cansay there's a problem.
The reason I bring up the familyhere and where it plays in this
diagnostic manual is somebody that you have a personal
relationship with says that you have a problem with alcohol or a
(08:40):
substance. It leads to that.
And so it can't just, it's not just one of those, right?
Because we could have somebody in her life that's a teetotaler.
And, you know, they think somebody's got a problem if they
have one beer at a birthday party, you know, once a year,
right? Like people.
Yeah, directives on that. People get DUI just not being
(09:00):
lucky, you know, that one time that they weren't thinking like.
So that's not just that. It's not just I got so drunk
that I've missed work and got fired, you know, So it has to be
more than one of these areas in our lives that really kind of
mark off. And I think that family is an
(09:20):
important thing to look at sometimes when somebody's
struggling with addiction. And I think again, you know,
referencing back to Marian in terms of what she said, she met
all those, like she was able to make appointments and take her
kids to things and she was able to do those things.
I think that's a good example ofwhat you're saying in terms of
like, man, this can be somethingthat can really be going on for
(09:45):
a while, not recognize it. And yeah, our family does kind
of have a different look at things, don't they?
Yeah, and I think it's importantfor us, especially in here when
we're talking about what it's like to be children of first
responders, to talk about that personal piece.
I think we did such a great job when we talked about the
financial aspect and how it kindof impacted both of us and and
we kind of really honed in on that.
I remember being very young and it being so normalized, you
(10:09):
know, like, hey Ash, go get a beer, go get us a beer.
You know, your, you think it's fun, you run and you go grab
that beer, right? You think it's so funny and, and
it is right? There's, it's so hard for me
because there's great memories with my uncles and my family, my
dad, you know, with alcohol, Butthen there's also some extremely
negative scary memories with alcohol.
And, and I think growing up withit, like me personally, now I'm
(10:32):
not, I feel like an outcast in my family a lot of the times And
I feel like I get made fun of a lot of the times because I'm not
one to, I don't, I could have nothing and have the best time,
right? And like, literally when I say
like my family can look at you sideways, like what girl, you're
at a bears game and you're, you're not pounding them like
what's wrong with you, right? But it's, it's just like, I
(10:53):
think my anxiety has really developed in knowing that like,
yeah, alcohol, while there's funsides to it too.
I've seen how it can also turn somebody angry and I've seen how
it can also turn something just really bad.
And I've heard stories and I, you know what I mean?
And yet it was so normalized forme, like going up my dad, going
out to the bar after work to hang out with his friends.
(11:15):
And it's never no offense like they were never just like 1 beer
drinkers. Right, right.
And I guess I could never understand that concept as I got
old enough to realize like what alcohol was like.
I've always kind of had this mindset of like, why do you have
to have that to have fun? Right, right.
Well, and I definitely had that childhood too, of like, go get
(11:35):
me a beer. And we had refrigerator that I
knew exactly where the beer was.Like that definitely been my
experience too. And I think, again, it's that
whole thing of culture. Like, I mean, it wasn't dad
drinking at home by himself likeit was we're out with other
police families. Yeah, other, you know, not
(11:58):
always police, but, you know, other families.
And drinking was definitely a big part of it.
And I mean, I enjoy drinking to this day.
And. But it's also that thing of
like, I can take her leave. Yes, sadly, for some people
that's just not their experience.
Yeah. And there can be lots that
causes that. You know, there can be how
(12:21):
substances can be used as a coping mechanism and some of
that can be a genetic thing. I have experience working with
people with drug and alcohol problems.
And you know, it's sometimes just like this DNA stuff, right?
Like for real. I always joke.
I'm like, I am as pale as can beand if I go out with no sunblock
(12:44):
on, I'm going to get sunburned. Like that's just the way I was
made. And, and unfortunately,
sometimes that happens with people when it comes to
substances. Some people can have a drink and
be fine and somebody's DNA says I can't just have one and I'll
have to keep going again. And that's just the luck of the
draw sometimes, which is hard tolike.
You have to have that insight and knowledge to know that for
(13:08):
sure. I like that you just said that
because I think something that keeps bringing coming up for me
in clinical world is my first responders that struggle with
substance abuse, the amount of trauma that they have had in
their lives. I'm always like, Oh my gosh.
And then we mix in genetics and we mix in everything.
But I don't know that I have yetto.
Maybe I'm just again, my scope of just who I'm seeing, right?
(13:30):
But I have yet to meet somebody who doesn't have this, like,
horrific trauma mixed in with it, where it's easy for me to
understand that, yeah, I didn't want to be vulnerable and go get
help for these things. I thought I could handle it,
right? Like, I thought I was doing the
right thing. And then substances got
introduced to me and now I just can't stop.
Well, and a couple of things with that too.
I recognize the first responder world is 24/7 and you know what
(13:57):
can be open real late. And.
Real early, I'm not open. Real late and real early, you
know, you've had a rough one andyou need to process and have a
therapeutic session. Well, these are my hours.
But you know what is open? A bar, you know.
What fair there's? 24 hour liquor stores.
I think again from this like brought let's take shame away.
(14:17):
Let's understand like hey, theseare some things that are
happening. Like I don't want to think about
this. And a fifth will help me not
think about about that. Like I think that that's a
really innocent thing. And you know, when I've worked
with people with substances, like, I'm very honest.
Like they're really trauma work and therapy stuff.
(14:39):
It's not easy, no. Way easier to go and get a
fifth, like, I mean, yeah, like that is easy.
It's the cost though. I mean, there is something that
cost you down the road. So my brain was going there
right when you said this, and I might make some people mad when
I say this and like notorious for that because you know me, I
(15:02):
like to speak the truth and I like to call things as I see it.
And we're in this culture that says, Hey, it's OK to drink.
Oh my God, drink, drink, drink, right.
Like we make fun of people. I've seen that a million times
over where a first responders like no man, like I'm good, like
I don't drink. And they're like, ah, like
you're, you know, they make fun of them, right, And that's fine.
Whatever, it's a part of it. I get that, but then we have,
(15:23):
then we go to the other extreme and I've seen this time and time
again where, OK, I am drinking and I'm drinking a lot.
I'm drinking a lot. And, and maybe that first
responder ends up getting in trouble, right?
Bites them in the ass and all ofa sudden you get that DUI or you
get something and everybody at your department knows.
And then all of a sudden it's a,Oh my gosh, hands off the what's
wrong with them? They got something wrong with
(15:45):
them. But there's no accountability to
taking that like, Oh yeah, we promote it, right, right.
Like it's so bizarre to me because I, I do see that often
too where I'm like, OK, and theycare.
Most people care. They're like, oh, I hope they
get better or I hope you know, but it's like also, This is why
it's so important to be knowledgeable on it and to be
insightful on it. You can't have it both ways.
(16:05):
You can't be like, hey, let's just go drink after a bad call
and drink after a bad call. But then when someone's in
critical need and that's what they decide to do, you're like,
oh, I don't, I don't know what to do with this.
Oh, I mean, I, I think you're right.
And I think it's. Sorry, that was like an ugly
truth, right? Right.
It's an ugly truth. I there's just too much cooking
up in my brain. You know, I think to that whole
(16:27):
thing of like, oh, I don't know what to do when somebody gets in
trouble in a situation like that.
Some of that is that. Well then I'll have to look at
my own. Yeah, true.
And I think sometimes people canbe teased for not drinking
because there's some envy of that.
Like yeah, 100%. And you know, that stuff can
(16:49):
really let that shame that we'refeeling internally can really
come out externally as well. This is random and I don't know
that it's on the same thing thatyou're talking about.
So just skip over it. But and again, you know, I'm
from a different generation. I am your elder and.
That. But I think that that speaks a
(17:10):
little bit into like my experience growing up and, you
know, how underage drinking was celebrated and, and culture and
movies and music and all that kind of stuff.
And I think about that in terms of, again, how people came back
from war and how they dealt withthings.
You know, it was alcohol. And I remember I was out of
(17:32):
college and come back and I was working a job in Louisville, and
there happened to be somebody there who's whose dad was also a
police officer. And, you know, it's a small
place. Oh, you know, my dad's.
And so we're talking. And something was sad.
I don't even remember. Again, this has been years ago,
this conversation. The guy said, yeah, yeah, my dad
(17:55):
doesn't drink at all because I probably made some, like, joke
about the FOP bar or something like that, you know, where I
spent. And he was like, yeah, no, my
dad doesn't drink. And I was just like, oh, OK.
And he reflected. He was like, yeah, my dad's very
religious. And I was like, oh, OK.
And he is like, yeah, I think you either choose religion or
(18:15):
you choose alcohol in terms of, like, you know, it was very
black and white. His response.
And, you know, he's about my ageand things like that.
And I thought that was a kind ofan interesting observation.
And again, this is in the late 1900s, I'm talking you guys.
So again, where it isn't, will Igo to my therapist?
(18:38):
It's not, hey, the department actually has this Wellness
program and I can go work out ormeet with a physical therapist
or are gym league is actually enjoyable.
It's I think there's more options nowadays and it's not
this kind of black and white thing.
(19:00):
And I think I had a point that connected me to what you said,
and I'm sorry I lost it. But no, don't be.
Sorry, was kind of an interesting reflection that it
feels like it's this black and white, right?
Like it's either you drink or you don't drink and not this
space in between, you know? Yeah, absolutely.
And my brain just went to how dowe combat it, right?
(19:22):
And I think for some reason, when you said going to the gym,
like stuff like that, I think about this, I'm like, as
therapist, I'm excited to have therapy becoming more prevalent
within the first responder community.
I feel like we really have made such great stride ending the
stigma. We still have a lot to do, but
it seems like a lot of first responders are open to therapy
now. But again, it's this notion of
(19:44):
just Wellness all around. Physical too, right?
Nutrition, all these things thatI think also play into a factor
of how does one get well. And I'm going to be honest with
you, substance abuse as a therapist is my hardest area.
It is the hardest thing for me to work with.
It's hard. And there's addictions in all
realms, especially with our first responders.
(20:04):
I know we maybe even mentioned this with Marian, right?
But there's like, you know, gambling and porn addictions and
all these things that yes, we are focusing heavy on alcohol
because again, that's our personal experience.
That's what we can talk to. But there's so much more out
there. But I will say.
Say that for someone to make that change, they have to be
dedicated and they have to want it.
It's a hard process and I can understand why a lot of people
(20:25):
don't go through with getting the help.
Again, I feel pretty fortunate. I have learned in this career
when I say never, that means theguarantee I'm gonna do it.
I can remember being in grudge in conversation with another
Polly or, you know, peer in school and was like, yeah, I
don't really want to work with people with addiction.
(20:46):
Like it's it's hard. Yeah.
I just, I don't think I want to do that.
Cut to me, of course, like running an IOP.
You know, I say never. And then here I am.
I do think it's exactly what you're right in terms of saying.
It can be impactful in so many ways, like addiction and what
(21:06):
addiction really looks like. It is something that intervenes
with our entire well-being. If it's the addiction, like I'm
avoiding going home because I'm going to go to the boat and bet,
or I'm from Louisville, I'm going to go bet on the ponies.
It is this thing that comes intoour lives that becomes
(21:28):
compulsive, like we have to do it in order to feel OK and what
it makes us give up in order to do that cost us something.
There's a cost involved. And it can be confusing because
it is this behavior. Just stop it.
Just stop it. And yet there are these driving
factors that are happening, be it emotionally, be it chemically
(21:53):
in our brains that is driving that bus.
It is insane. It is insane.
We could spend a whole episode on this and it's still, even
with learning about it over and over, I feel like I still have
to go back to my books and read it and break it down because it
is insane. The way these chemicals mess
with our brain and how the brainactually reacts to it and all
that's going on when we do use substances.
(22:15):
My mind is blown every time I try to learn.
I feel like I can't learn enoughabout it and yet I can never
understand it fully because it'sjust so complex.
It is. It absolutely is.
And I think, you know, Marian talked about this too, in terms
of like the stigma with first responders like, well, that's
not me, you know, I'm not a drunk.
(22:36):
And it's that way in which again, what addiction will do is
really skew, as I think the children like to say, delulu,
like I, you know, I think. You know you didn't.
I love it. Your delusion, like, oh, but I'm
not like this, so I'm OK. And again, to tie back to like,
that's where it's a complicated thing with family, but how our
(22:59):
families love us and they can really be a mirror that we don't
want to look into and saying like, hey, there's a problem or
this isn't working. Yeah, I do think when I, and
again, I can't make a blanket statement for everybody, but I
do think when I learn with my first responders a lot, it's
usually the spouse or someone inthe household who's the 1:00
calling it. Oh yeah.
(23:19):
Oh, I can't. I'll tell you how many first
responders I meet with in session.
And of course I ask about drug use, alcohol use, all the uses.
And no, like it's not really. I mean, my wife kind of, you
know, I'm like a course, your wife says that and we'll be
unpacking that. But, you know, kind of thing.
(23:39):
Hard to live in a culture that promotes something.
Yeah, that thing that's promotedturns into a real problem.
Like how unwind that? How do I still get to be a part
of this community? But I don't do the thing that
they do. And I think again, why Marian is
so incredible is she's a great example.
(23:59):
Yeah, if you can actually be very successful and not engage.
Well and and still keep your friendships and still have
connections with people it's. So true.
One thing I want to obviously mention is that you and I,
again, our little disclaimer, while we love, we would love to
be everyone's therapist and helpeveryone on this, on this
platform, we are not. And so it's just ideas and
(24:22):
concepts to take and, and maybe look at, but obviously someone
is struggling. You got to get more help.
And I would say that if we couldgive some tools or some
recommendations, I know for me, working with a lot of building
peer support and doing these things, it's knowing your
resources. Spend the time at the your
departments to know what's around you.
Are these treatment centers? Are they geared towards first
responders? Do they even take your
(24:44):
insurance, know the information to make sure that if someone
does finally come to you and they say, I need the help, you
get them to the appropriate places.
I think that I see that fall through a lot because it's like
all of a sudden, like, uh oh, where do we go?
You know, but there are a lot ofdifferent things out there now
and every area is different. And so like peer support teams,
(25:06):
admin people, right? Look into it, research it, go
talk to them, interview the places and see what you think.
Yeah. You know, I think Marion is a
great proponent of the STEPS program, and that's a Alcoholics
Anonymous. And it's interesting.
I mean, I think that there's great pillars in the book, which
(25:28):
is what a A is kind of built on.And these 12 steps that I don't
even think you have to have an addiction problem to say like
there's some great stuff in there about accountability,
about responsibility, about amends, like saying we're sorry,
you know, those are things whether you got a problem or you
don't have a problem, incrediblethings to like work and and grow
(25:51):
on. And while you say that, it's
also so incredible and helpful for the families to actually do
those same things and to be a part of that treatment process.
Oh, absolutely. I think this conversation could
honestly go on for days, right? Like, and, and I do think we'll
explore this further because I, again, there's so many topics
when it comes to substance abuseand 1st responders.
(26:11):
And we know that it is statistically higher for our
first responders than civilian population.
And so I think it is something we'll have to continue to hit
on, but it's just continuing to open the door.
I always say this, I know, repetitive, but we crack it open
and we just keep trying to push it open a little bit more and
more. Well, I think, I hope what our
listeners hear is like that we do want to have these
(26:32):
conversations about things that are a problem.
Like I don't think what we want to have this podcast and just
talk about kumbaya, rainbows andsunshine.
Like there are some things that are that are an underbelly with
this profession. And I think the more we get to
put light on it, we hope the healthier families, I mean,
(26:53):
that's why we're here. Families get to be.
Well, thank you guys for listening today.
I know that it's always hard to like wrap it up because I feel
like where do we leave it? But I wanted to leave it on some
resources, some tools, like we said, just spots of where you
can go with it. But really being ahead of it and
and staying on top of it becauseunfortunately every single
department, whether you're fire,whether you're police, whether
(27:14):
you are dispatched, whether you're EMS, what have you, like
it creeps up, it's gonna happen.And so you got to be prepared to
help your people when they need it.
Exactly. Exactly.
Well, Ashley, what do you alwayssay?
All right, guys, we're excited for next episode.
We'll see you all soon. But as always, when the call
hits home, Jennifer and I are here for you.
Thank you. Thanks.
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