Justin Miller [00:00:00]:
Can I get the current number for eap? I have an employee here who might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts. And I'm like, okay, well, so at that point, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support team. And it was just. There was nothing. There was no. I had nothing to do for that employee. And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my psych time.
Justin Miller [00:00:28]:
Right. And so I just kind of counseled them myself. But I knew at that time that we had to be better.
Jennifer [00:00:35]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
Ashlee [00:00:38]:
And I'm Ashlee. And we do have. I'm just going to say it because it's like a running joke. Now, a very special guest today, and this person has turned into one of my very favorite humans quickly. So I'm honored to have him on, and I'm going to let him introduce himself because we got a lot of good content today.
Justin Miller [00:00:53]:
Hello. I am Chief Deputy Justin Miller from the Kenosha Sheriff's Office, Kenosha County, Wisconsin. I've been in law enforcement since 2002, and prior to that, I was in the Navy as a psychiatric technician, which is.
Ashlee [00:01:08]:
I know Jennifer's face. It's like, wait, what?
Jennifer [00:01:10]:
Yeah, yeah, this is a podcast. But if you guys saw my face, I did not know that was on your resume. My goodness.
Ashlee [00:01:17]:
Yeah, it's really hard because he knows all the ins and outs, too. Like, he's.
Justin Miller [00:01:19]:
He's with it, the old ins and outs now.
Ashlee [00:01:24]:
He's amazing.
Jennifer [00:01:26]:
I was about to make a bad joke. Okay, well, we're excited that you're here today, and I appreciate your time, and I appreciate you sharing that you're a chief deputy, and I think that's kind of what we want to talk a little bit today in terms of your title and what it means to be leadership in law enforcement. And I just kind of want to ask, when did you recognize that investing in mental wellness for the officers you would serve should be a priority or prioritized?
Justin Miller [00:01:49]:
Yeah. So I touched a little bit on some of my background, but, yeah, psych tech in the Navy from 95 to 2000. I think about my time when I work back in the field. It kind of opened my eyes to the world of mental health. And full moons. Full moons are a real thing.
Ashlee [00:02:05]:
A real thing.
Justin Miller [00:02:06]:
Inpatient psych world. That's a real thing. But I worked in the inpatient unit at Great Lakes, and I think about the medications that we administered as Navy Corpsman basically did the work of nurses. Right? We. We actually gave the shots and administered medications, did the surgeries, things like that. Right. But I remember, like, watching the. Those.
Justin Miller [00:02:27]:
Those side effects of those medications, you know, the catatonic shuffle, the tardive dyskinesia, you know, things you would see in, like, those old movies, but then you would see it in real life and it was like, surreal, Right? You know, my mom's uncle was in an inpatient unit when I was growing up, so I can still remember the smell of. Of the psych unit when you would walk in. And it smelled the same way when I was in the Navy. And then when I got out and I went to Arizona State University, I worked as a psych tech in the Maricopa County Hospital, which was totally different than my time in the Navy because basically, like the little room that you're sitting in, I did a lot of coloring activities with the patients and fed them. Right. We didn't. We couldn't administer medication. So in my time with the sheriff's office, I would say that, you know, I experienced a couple major personal life events in my first seven years as a deputy.
Justin Miller [00:03:22]:
One of them being I had a significant other who committed suicide. And then my. I lost my mom in 2009, and she was like my best friend. So there is no help offered or even compassion given within this organization. Right. And you know, another event I recall is I was at my uncle's funeral and I got a call from the department and the supervisor on the other end of the phone was ordering me in for duty, like, immediately. Right. And I was like, at my uncle's funeral, and he's in.
Justin Miller [00:03:56]:
His response was, and I quote this, well, uncles are not covered by funeral leave, so you have to come in. And I remember going to my family and like, hey, I gotta leave, because I just got ordered into work. And they were, like, dumbfounded and just like, I couldn't even participate in the funeral for my uncle.
Ashlee [00:04:19]:
Right, right.
Justin Miller [00:04:20]:
So that was. So I fast forward, you know, to my second assignment as a sergean
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(00:00):
Can I get the current number forEAPI have an employee here who
might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we
don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts.
And I'm like, OK, well, so at that point in, in this agency,
we didn't have a peer support team and it was just, there was
(00:20):
nothing I, there's no, I, I had nothing to do for that employee.
And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my
psych time, right. And so I just kind of counseled
them myself. But I I knew at that time that
we had to be better. Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley and we do have,
(00:40):
I'm just going to say it becauseit's like a running joke now, a
very special guest today. And this person has turned into
one of my very favorite humans quickly.
So I'm honored to have him on and I'm going to let him
introduce himself because we gota lot of good content today.
Hello, I'm Chief Deputy Justin Miller from the Kenosha
Sheriff's Office, Kenosha County, Wisconsin.
I've been in law enforcement since 2002 and prior to that I
(01:04):
was in the Navy as a psychiatrictechnician.
Which is, I know in Jennifer's face it's like, wait, what?
Yeah, yeah, this is a podcast, but if you guys saw my face, I
did not know that was on your resume.
My. Goodness.
Yeah, it's really hard because he knows all the insurance and
outs too, like he's, he's with it.
The the old insurance and outs. No, no, he's amazing.
(01:26):
I was about to make a bad joke. OK, well, we're excited that
you're here today, and I appreciate your time and I
appreciate you sharing that you're a chief deputy.
And I think that's kind of what we want to talk a little bit
today in terms of your title andwhat it means to be leadership
and law enforcement. And I just kind of want to ask,
when did you recognize that investing in mental Wellness for
the officers you would serve should be a priority or
(01:48):
prioritized? Yeah, so I touched a little bit
on some of my background, but yeah, psych tech in the Navy
from 95 to 2000. And I think about my time when I
work back in the field, it kind of opened my eyes to the world
of mental health and full moons.Full moons are a real thing and.
Real. Thing inpatient psych world
those are that's a real thing, But I worked in the inpatient
(02:10):
unit at Great Lakes and I think about the medications that we
administered as Navy corpsman basically did the work of
nurses, right We we actually gave the shots and administered
medications did the surgeries, things like that right but I
remember like watching the thoseside effects of those
medications, you know, the cantonic shuffle, the tardive
(02:33):
dyskinesia, you know, things youwould see in like those old
movies, but then that you would see it in real life and it was
like surreal, right. You know, my mom's uncle was
inpatient unit when I was growing up, so I can still
remember the smell of, of the psych unit when you would walk
in and it smelled the same way when I was in the Navy.
And then when I got out and I went to Arizona State
(02:54):
University, I worked as a psych tech in the Maricopa County
Hospital, which was totally different than my time in the
Navy because basically like the little room that you're sitting
in, I did a lot of coloring activities with the the patients
and fed them, right. We didn't, we couldn't
administer medication. So in my time with the Sheriff's
Office, I would say that, you know, I experienced a couple
(03:17):
major personal life events in myfirst seven years as a deputy,
one of them being I had a significant other who committed
suicide. And then I lost my mom in 2009
and she was like my best friend.So there is no help offered or
even compassion given within this organization, right?
(03:38):
And you know, another event I recall is I was at my uncle's
funeral and I got a call from the department and, and the
supervisor on the other end of the phone was ordering me in for
duty like immediately, right? And I was like, I'm at my
uncle's funeral. And he's and his response was,
and I quote this. Well, uncles are not covered by
(04:00):
funeral leave, so you have to come in.
And I remember going to my family and my like, hey, I gotta
leave because I just got orderedinto work and they were like
dumbfounded and just like, I couldn't even participate in the
funeral for my uncle, right? Right.
(04:20):
So that that was so I Fast forward, you know, to my second
assignment as a Sergeant, you know, I get promoted and again,
I get promoted, I think, OK, I'mgoing to have a voice in this
game, right? And not necessarily that mental
health was that on my priority list.
But even in the military, you always want to be promoted
because you want to be better than the people.
That, and I use this in a loose term, LED you, or I should say
(04:44):
manage you because there's a difference between leaders and
managers, right? I can teach anyone to manage
somebody, but to actually lead them is, I think it's a calling,
But I won't go into that right now.
I think that's a good. Point though I appreciate that
it is. So I was assigned to the
conveyance unit and one of my employees had some, let's just
(05:05):
say major mental health issues that they're dealing with.
And on one of our filing cabinets, I remember there was
this magnet for EAP, right? And I just remember seeing that
magnet. Never heard anything talked
about EAP, nothing, you know, SoI gave the employee that
information, sent him on their way.
Well, they returned like 15 minutes later and said, yeah,
(05:27):
the county isn't covered by thatanymore.
And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, they
said that we're not covered, that this this is an old number
or something. So I called my HR and I was
like, excuse me, can I get the current number for EAPI?
Have an employee here who might need some services.
(05:48):
Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to
budget cuts. And I'm like, okay, well, so at
that point in, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support
team and it was just there was nothing there's no, I had
nothing to do for that employee and I kind of felt like a loss
(06:08):
other than what I knew from my psych time, right?
And so I just kind of counseled them myself.
But I knew at that time that we had to be better, right?
However, being a Sergeant in that old, in that old culture of
the department that I work in, Ihad no voice, you know, again.
So I'm like, all right, well, I got to be promoted Lieutenant to
have a voice. Well, again, find out that
(06:30):
that's not the case. So when I was promoted to
captain in 2016, again, I finally, finally would be able
to be heard because I got to sitat the table.
So some other incidents that took place in our agency over
the years that I just, you know,I'll never forget is just a
couple officer involved shootingcalls.
One in particular, I, I was coming out from 3rd shift and we
(06:54):
were, I was asked to bring out the less lethal beanbag gun,
right? But I'm like, OK, and I was AI
was a hostage negotiator back inmy day, right?
And they're at a barricaded. Well, guy was just in his car
barricaded, but had a long gun and the SWAT team was out there.
So I was asked to bring out thisless lethal.
(07:15):
So I bring it out and I remembermy boss was negotiating at the
back of a squad car. And so I run up to the back of
the squad car with this gun and I'm like, I'm like, Hey, where
is the guy? And he like points and he's like
literally 10 feet in front of us.
And so I'm as soon as I get there, you know, I hear, you
(07:35):
know, I see the SWAT team, I see, you know, everyone's kind
of around. And I, he's trying to
communicate with him. And I see this guy's long gun
come out of his window. And then just shots just rained
out, right? And I was like, oh, I'm like,
what, what just happened, right?So I remember having to go, I, I
(07:56):
got assigned to go with, I mean,the guy who was killed, I, I got
assigned to go with the body to the, to the hospital.
And then once I cleared the hospital, they had me bring the
mobile command, our mobile command Center for interviews
and things like that. And I remember the union
requesting time for the officersto, you know, leave, you know,
kind of what the protocols are now, right?
(08:18):
You don't have to talk right away.
There's a, you know, a level of decompression.
All those things demanded actually ordered them to all
stay on scene. And they were interviewed one by
one in this command post, right?So, and I think, OK, knowing
what I know now, right? I didn't know any better back
(08:38):
then, but knowing what I know now, I'm like, Oh my God, that
was a horrible decision. The the trauma that they just
experienced. I mean, you know, I went to the
ER with this body and I'm like, I just remember, I can still see
like the guy looked like Swiss cheese, you know, I mean, it
was, it was like almost like stuff I've seen in the military
(08:59):
from, you know, combat versus, you know, I'm wait, I'm out on
the street. And I was probably only a couple
years on at that point, you know.
And so I think about that and then I remember that those
officers that were involved weretold to come back to work in 48
hours and go back on to their shifts and got zero critical
incident trustee briefs, 0 opportunity to have counseling
(09:24):
sessions where we didn't have the AP.
Because this was well before thebad magnet, right?
There was, you know, a handful of different officer involved
shootings that happened over my time up into my, you know,
actually when I was first assigned a second shift as a
Lieutenant, one of my first months on, we had an officer
(09:45):
involved shooting and I actuallybought my shift food, right?
I, I brought it to to kind of our safe zone or if you will,
right, and I bought them food out of my petty cash and I got
my butt chewed for weeks, right,because I wasn't supposed to buy
food out of my petty cash. It's not authorized.
(10:08):
And so and, you know, Fast forward, I just buy it out of my
own money now, but it whatever, you know it.
So I just remember that was the culture, though.
The culture was you don't, I felt like you don't take care of
your people. You just make sure that you're
operationally ready and, and, you know, then those officers
again got, you know, thrown backinto the road in 72 hours and
(10:29):
told, you know, rub some dirt onit, you know, get back out
there. I think the most powerful thing
about that though, in our position, right, is like what
you're saying still happens. Those negative things still
happen at a lot of departments. Like we still hear that today,
right? And so I think that can be the
challenge and the frustration islike, and it's amazing that
you're on here being open and talking about that, especially
(10:51):
in your position, because like for us as clinicians, right,
like we, we hear, we still hear of all those negative things of
people being like, oh, well, suck it up and get back out
there. Oh well.
And it's like, what, how are we still in this position?
And so it's important for us. I, I do want to ask you, what is
your department's current strategy for supporting the
mental Wellness of your officersafter having that culture shift?
(11:12):
What are you trying to implement?
Yeah. So I would say that it's my
personal number one priority in the twilight of my career,
something that I've been pretty passionate about for years, you
know, been trying to change thatculture.
I've been told my ideas were toograndiose, out of touch with
reality, you know. But over the last eight years,
I've witnessed agencies all overthe United States implementing
(11:35):
the very things that I would talk about, right?
Those cutting edge, you know, mental health days, mental
Wellness rooms. I mean, in West Virginia, they
have AI think it's called the Hero Center.
It's like a mental Health Center, like, right?
Like they have a gym, a room next floor has all those massage
chairs and the next floor is just a meditation room.
(11:57):
But those things I've always like, I'm like, OK, why can't we
work out on duty, right? Or whatever.
It doesn't have to be work out. Whatever you want to do for an
hour, nap, siesta, whenever you know, meditate.
What? Like why does it, you know, why
does your, you know, 10-7 or your lunch have to be eating
(12:19):
food, right? Why can't we just do whatever we
want during that time? So I think our strategy is to
provide a psychologically safe workplace.
And again, I've been reading this book, the Fearless
Organization that just talks about creating a psychologically
safe workplace that you can feelsupported.
Our employees have a voice, right?
(12:39):
Making sure that everybody has avoice at all levels, have any
and all resources that are available and at their
fingertips, right. We've actually partnered with
this amazing provider that shares some of those same
visions as I do. So I think we're getting there.
I've heard about. That provider.
Yeah, I mean, other than being aBears fan.
That's fine. Kidding, I'm not a Packer fan so
(13:02):
it doesn't matter. Now we actually get along very
well because of that. Right, right.
But currently we have an app called Cortico, which is, you
know, and kind of a one stop shop for Wellness, if you will.
There's different programs in there.
There's one touch provider like,you know, we can program in
providers and they just have to hit the button.
(13:25):
It calls that provider similar peer support has meal planning,
all these different things, workouts.
It's it's pretty robust. We also offer smart dollar from
Ramsey solutions, which is a which is a, which is a financial
Wellness piece, peer support. But the financial Wellness is
probably one of my larger passions now and in the later
(13:48):
stages of my life because, you know, I wasn't taught proper
financial guidance, you know, asfrom my parents or even in the
military. And I, I just think that, you
know, it, it goes hand in hand. I think, I think the mental
health of our officers, there's three, three or four things,
right? Your physical Wellness, right?
(14:08):
Your financial Wellness, your spiritual Wellness, and really
your resiliency to get over things that may or may not have
happened to you in your life, right?
Not being a victim of your circumstances, if you will.
But the financial piece is that,you know, if somebody is so much
in debt or they're living paycheck to paycheck or they're
(14:30):
budgeting based on their overtime, right?
That creates so much stress in their life that every other part
of their life is going to be affected.
And I've heard you guys talk about it on your podcast about
how important the finances are. And so I think offering this
program and I, and I get it, people are like, if you listen
to Dave Ramsey on, on his podcast, right?
(14:51):
He, he's very to the point, right?
He he doesn't hold anything backin he he could be an acquired
taste, right? And, and I know people don't, I
don't people don't they like they, they like to play that
airline credit card points, these anti credit cards, you
know, things like that. But I always say out of Clark
Howard, I don't know if you guysknow who Clark Howard is, but
(15:12):
he's another financial guru thatI grew up listening to on the AM
radio, right? He still has his own podcast.
But if those two had a baby, I think they'd be perfect because
they they do, I mean, but they do offer a lot of good advice.
So these younger, you know, I teach in the Academy and I teach
officer Wellness in the Academy and, and I've incorporated a lot
(15:33):
of the financial Wellness because it used to be there is
only one slide. The state gives me one slot 1
slide on financial Wellness and it's the very last slide of a
four hour presentation. So I try to incorporate that
more throughout the entire presentation, throughout the
entire class. But a lot of it is I tell these
(15:53):
kids, right, how many of you this is your first job that
you've ever worked, right? Like real job, you know, because
we can have 18 year olds in these classes, you know, you
only need to be 18 to be a cop in the state of Wisconsin.
So they, they range from 18 years old to, I mean, we've had
people as old as 50 in the class.
So they have such different lifeexperiences within that class in
(16:15):
a lot of those prior military folks, right?
They, they kind of can help mentor those younger officers
because those of us in the military, we made the mistakes
of going across the street and buying the car for 50% interest
because it was cool, right? Even though they told us not to.
We just like we're going. I think the financial piece is
(16:37):
good, yeah. Well, I just, I, I appreciate
you bringing that up. There's a book called The
Psychology of Money, and I'm of course I'm blanking on the
author's name, but you know, thefinances stuff.
If it was just a numbers of 2 + 2 = 4, I think we would all be
able to manage money. That would be a simple black and
white thing. And yet it's a real soft skill
(16:59):
where emotions are so involved. Like I want the cool car because
that might make me feel cool. You know, you have to kind of
dig through some of that too. And I think that there's this
real marriage of rationale and feelings when it comes to
spending money. So I, I don't mean to get us off
track too much, but I appreciate.
You. Up in terms of financial stress
(17:22):
is a mental drain. And so it is address something
like that. That's a skill.
Like that's a good one. You kind of answered a little
bit of my questions in terms of like how you prioritize mental
Wellness and that is kind of a compassion of yours as a leader.
I want to go back a little bit and I'd, you might not have an
(17:42):
answer to this question, but I'mgoing to ask it anyways.
I appreciate you being so honestabout, hey, I was a Sergeant,
I'm going to have a voice. Oh, wait, I don't have a voice.
Oh, I got promoted to Lieutenant, I'm going to have a
voice. Oh, wait, I don't have a voice.
Do you have in your experience why that is or what happened in
those situations that maybe I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, I can. I can give my theory on it, I
(18:06):
guess. I think it was the same as in
the military, right? There's like you're following
this old school thought process.You're following these grizzled,
salty veterans that they, they know it all right.
They're the most important person in every room they walk
into. They're the smartest person of
every room they walk into. They're not humble at all.
(18:28):
There's no humility. I think one of the most
important things I learned when I was a new supervisor is they
made us take out a piece of paper and they write, they said,
they write this down and you're like, all right, you're all
eager, right? I, I am not the most important.
I am the least important person in my organization because as a
(18:49):
supervisor, you only matter a little bit, right?
Your people matter more. Your people are more important,
right? Your, your employees without
your employees, you are, you're not a supervisor, you're not a
leader, right? You don't you, you need them to,
you know, and the, and the higher up you go in the
organizations, the more important that really is.
(19:12):
I think so. I think they bought.
I think along the way the old culture was, you know, I
remembered JFD, you know, you guys, just you guys can figure
out the F do it, right? That's what that's what they
would say. JFD deputy like this generation,
that of our new employees, right?
This new generation is a why they want to know why, right?
(19:35):
They want to know what the valuethey're going to get out of
doing what you want them to do, right?
So we have to provide, and I think even my generation, I
think there's a cultural shift in every generation, right?
And the inability to shift with that culture as a supervisor or
the inability to not be able to learn how to lead those new
(19:56):
generations is problematic. You know, I said I would talk
about a couple books, The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lincione,
right? It talks about three key things.
It's being humble, hungry and smart, right?
So humble. The humility, right, that that
(20:16):
speaks for ourselves, but we have to be able, we have to be
have humility in our lives. We have to be able to be humble.
And that's what we look for in our candidates, right?
And I ask every supervisor candidate in an interview what
it, what humility means to them,right?
And I asked them these three things.
I actually asked them all of them hungry is the ability to
(20:38):
continue to learn, right? To continue to grow.
You know, I'm sure you've heard the term leaders are readers,
right? We we constantly have to be
filling ourselves with, you know, substantive matter, you
know, like things that matter tous.
And, you know, as and Ashley knows I listen to way too many
podcasts. I read way too many books.
(21:00):
Maybe a lot. You know, sometimes I get like
I'm all over the place being hungry is that, but being smart
is the emotional intelligence part.
Like how can you read your own emotions?
And how do you read others rightwhen you react into situations?
Do you if an employee is comes to you and you know, you guys
are having an argument, are you blacking out?
(21:21):
Are you shaking uncontrollably? And I mean, I used to have a lip
quiver. If my lip would quiver, the
employee's like, all right, I'm leaving.
But I've learned how to control all that stuff.
Like I've learned how to controlmy emotions.
I know it triggers me. I, I've, I, So it's all about
trying to learn those type of things.
(21:42):
And I think the old generation just maybe didn't embrace
concepts like that or didn't have concepts like that.
You know, I first of all, I appreciate you willing to share
that and kind of what your experience instead of that.
And I think sometimes it can be,well, when it's my turn, I'm
going to do what they did to me.Like it is this like I have I
(22:05):
have the crown. And so they better bow down.
And I really want to thank you and celebrate the fact that you
had those experiences and said, well, now I'm at the top.
So I'll tell everybody to shut up and said doing the way that a
good leader would be being like actually the best information we
get is from the people that are working.
(22:26):
What feedback do they have in terms of how we can help and be
supportive of to their jobs. So thank you for.
That, yeah. And I think too, right.
Like the way we got here was from you listening to us and and
being a little frustrated with the things that we had to say
about admin and how that can look in organizations.
(22:48):
And I remember at first being like, well, I'm going to swear.
Oh shit. Like he might be angry with me
for a second. But then I was like, I actually
appreciate this because your anger shows me that you care.
It's your passion, right? And like, all I can ask for,
yeah, you're hungry. That's a great point.
All I can ask for is for people in your positions to listen to
(23:08):
us and to reflect on that, right?
And to be like, when we're not all like that, we can make
change. Like, we want to make change.
And. And I loved that because I was
like, this is kind of the point.I would rather make someone
frustrated, but thinking about it then not at all right.
And so I do kind of want to shift a little bit to asking you
like how you how do you address some of that stigma with your
(23:30):
own officers being in the role that you are in, in leadership?
Well, so the stigma thing is crazy.
Like I, I was my master's program at Arizona State was on
human communication. And this is one of the things I
tried to study is like the stigma of why officers don't
speak to anyone, right? Why they don't come forward with
(23:50):
their stressors or whatever's going on in their life.
And unfortunately, in the program, there is not a lot of
research out there on it. So I kind of hit a lot of dead
ends. But I think we need to again,
create that psychologically safeworkplace, making sure that
people are able to talk if they're willing, educating our
(24:12):
staff on mental health, the effects of PTSD.
I don't have where I read it, but I read that an average
officer in their career has 100,sees 180 to 200 critical
incidents in their career. The average layperson like
normal person, sees one to five in their lifetime, right?
(24:32):
And the five is more females, unfortunately, because of the
sexual abuse and things like that.
So again, I teach at the Academyfor the past nine years and been
teaching college classes since 2009.
So I've made it a priority to erase that stigma or, you know,
just talk about the stigma and the fact that it it's being
(24:53):
broken down. And there is people like myself
and hopefully a lot of other administrators out there that
embrace the mental health programs that are starting to
become prevalent. So I hope that with new each
generation of officers that kindof dissipates, right?
That stigma will go away, right as the old school mentality rub
(25:16):
dirt on it. Officers retire that new
generation that's been hearing the message at least for the
last 10 years because I think it's still in the new space, you
know, within our profession thatthey, they will start to
outnumber those old salty, you know, officers.
And then that whole culture shifts and then that stigma
(25:39):
maybe erases itself. I don't know.
I'm gonna real quick and then you take over.
But I kind of have to call you out a little bit on a positive
too, is that I think something you do really, really well is
you take yourself outside of your role and you're just a
human with your people at times too, right?
So like, one example of that would be that I don't know why
you wake up at the ass crack of dawn to work out, Like you wake
(26:00):
up at the ass crack of dawn to go work out and you work out at
the at the building. So other people are working out
with you, right? Like you don't, you don't
separate yourself from that. And I think that that speaks
volume, I think, to others, too,of just like, seeing you for who
you are as a human rather than just your role at the Sheriff's
Office, you know? And I think you do that in other
(26:20):
places in your life as well, which is really special to
people because people struggle with that, right?
Or they'll avoid those things when they're in roles such as
yours because they let that takeover.
And that's their identity. And I don't think you do that.
And I think you do a really goodjob just being a human too, like
finding that balance. Well my my employees do say if
I'm not making fun of them then I'm probably pissed off for the
(26:41):
day. So.
Go ahead. Well, I have to say I'm just
really impressed that you didn'tmake a budget for a private gym
just for the chief deputy that only you, you that no one can
look. At right, right.
I wish. Sometimes the music is pretty
loud. I've heard about the music
debacle. I'm like the old.
(27:01):
Guy, get off my lawn. Put the music down.
Well, I, I, I'm going rogue a little bit here, but you know, I
appreciate you really giving feedback, You know, to Ashley of
like, hey, you know, you're kindof raking admin over the coals a
little bit. Like give us a chance to talk
(27:22):
and, and recognize like we are trying to do better and are
doing better. I want to say that as well.
I guess I kind of want to ask like feedback for mental health
providers, you know, you really are trying to partner and talk
about Wellness and, and supporting officers.
You know, what do you need from the mental health providers,
(27:44):
from from resources, things likethat for officers.
How can we do better? Clone yourselves.
There's there's not enough right?
I mean, in, in any realm, you know, I mean, I remember my, my
daughter was 16 and she was having, you know what 16 year
olds go through and I called EAPfor her and they were like,
(28:06):
yeah, it's a six month wait. You know, so not, it's not just
in our realm, but in, in all of mental health world profession,
right? There's just, there's not enough
providers. There's not enough folks like
yourselves that have the passionto help us.
Sometimes we're the helpless, I'm sure, because you know, just
(28:28):
we're type A personalities by the way that we are raised and
brought up and then the culture of our profession and the not
willingness to talk at some, youknow, so it once you
breakthrough our hard candy shell, you know, we're we're
sweet. You are sweet.
Pretty. Gooey inside.
(28:49):
Yeah, but, you know, I think just the continued support and
doing what you guys do. I mean, seriously, it's it was
such a blessing that Ashley cameinto our organization's life,
right? It was, I don't even know, it
was kind of wasn't really a planned event.
I think it was just kind of like, hey, we're all in the
right place at the right time. And yeah, I think just the
(29:14):
continued support and putting the message out there that, you
know, we're humans too and, and we see a lot and sometimes we
need to talk about it. And you know, and, and I, you
know, from the administrative thing, I hope, you know, you
guys have 100 administrators that are crotchety that are out
there listening to this. And and they matter, right?
(29:36):
Like it matter. The top matters because it does
without without the ability or the, the the want to bring these
type of programs into your agencies.
There is nothing, right. EAP is such a small little
sliver and, and, and if you don't, if you're not, if your
EAP is not fortunate enough to have a provider that's
(29:58):
specifically geared toward firstresponders, it's not going to
matter, right? It, I mean, it's just going to
touch the surface and it's not going to really be able to dig
deep into what do we see everyday?
Like what, you know, understanding our profession
and, you know, I, I talked to Ashley about this, like, OK,
(30:19):
well, I think about combat veterans, right?
You know, the, the VA system that we get disability for PTSD
at some point. These, these organizations,
these counties and municipalities, the states,
right? Where, when is the, when, when
are they going to take PTSD seriously for our profession,
(30:40):
right? So again, I'm, I'm in the fight
with county, you know, politicians that support you
with their mouths and their hearts and they want to hug you
and oh, we're so. Yeah.
But when it comes to giving us money for these programs, you
know, it's they would prioritize, you know, big pens
(31:03):
over the mental illness of of our officers.
So I don't, I tend to not have much of A filter, as Ashley
knows. So when I get in front of the
politicians and county board meetings, I just let him know
how it is. And, you know, it's already too
late. We've been fortunate enough to
not have any suicides, but we'vehad officers kill them on a
(31:25):
duty. And actually, one of my good
friends, you know, just tragically passed away a few
years ago. He was a detective.
But yeah. And it's it's already too late,
right? But if something happens, we've
asked, we've asked, we've asked,we've asked.
I tell them the blood is on yourhands, right?
It's on your hands because there's funds available, right?
(31:49):
But we won't get into the politics of it.
But at some point, they have to put up the the dollars, you
know, to, to support this initiative.
Yeah, and I think for me too, that's a whole learning curve
for me coming into the Sheriff'sOffice is the political side
because it's very intense and it's very frustrating.
(32:10):
And also though it's the realityof like, aren't we all working
for better communities, safer communities, better relations?
And yet we have to start somewhere.
And I talked, I've talked a lot about this on here.
I'm a huge systems theory person.
And like if we're taking care ofour deputies, you know, like on
the individual basis, they're going to be better when they get
out on the road, they're going to be better for our communities
(32:32):
and I better work. I don't know how that's an
argument Like so I that's what frustrates me is like seeing it
from that angle too. Like we if you invest in your
people who are doing these jobs and making them better, then
yes, your communities are going to get better too.
Like it's how it works as a system.
So yeah, that whole stuff is extremely frustrating and I
(32:54):
don't know how you do it day after day.
It's not my favorite part of thejob.
And I think it was there's insulation at the lower levels
or there was, right. But we try to expose them more
to it now earlier on in their supervisory careers because
it's, it's a shock and awe at some point, you know, and I'd
(33:15):
rather them see and be like a transparency, right?
See what we see. So they know when we're making
decisions. It's not just us.
There's other stakeholders that create problems for our
initiatives, if you will. You know, you spoke earlier
about finances and how that's a thing, you know, outside of the
(33:37):
job that can cause stress. You know, Ashley and I are here
not because we are first responders, but because we grew
up in those homes. And so just thinking about the
families and you have an incredible resume and, and
changing a culture in any place is one of the hardest things you
can do. And I can clearly see the
efforts that have been made. But I was just curious in terms
(33:59):
of, and I appreciate you sharingthat you're a parent, like what
impact or what you know goals down the line or what would you
love to see in terms of how families and family Wellness is
incorporated? Yeah, I think it's, it's pretty
paramount to a successful Wellness program, to be honest.
(34:21):
You know, and I, I'm guilty of insulating my spouse from the,
the traumas of this job. And even my children, you know,
granted most of their, their years of comprehending what
their dad does have been in a supervisory role.
So a little less danger than when they were babies.
(34:42):
Right now, we currently, they have access to everything that
we have the Cortico. They get, you know, the Cortico
app. My, my daughter actually used it
while she was in college down inFlorida and she needed some help
and it worked out really well. We give all of our family
members and I've even extended it to extended family for the
smart dollar app because we pay for 400 licenses and if HR is
(35:06):
listening, just kidding no. And then they also obviously
have EAP available to them. So I, I think we for what we
have currently we've incorporated but.
That's great. That's way more than many.
They need to be more involved though.
And, and I think there's plans, you know, we've talked about
(35:28):
dinners, you know, family dinners with, you know, like,
you know, wife's kids. We have, we've had family days
in the past. My issue is, and if any of my
people are listening, they're going to be upset.
But I can't do it all. I need people that have the same
passions and we need to capture those people somehow and that
(35:48):
they have a vision that is hopefully more grandiose than
mine. They can, they can come with the
ideas. And that's kind of like, you
know, I was talking that book. It talks about like making sure
that there's teams like that in your organization that can just
throw stuff at the wall and nobody's going to get upset by
(36:11):
it. It's just an idea, right?
And they talk about Google X projects in there and you know,
and they actually, if you're, ifyou ran your idea from start to
finish, you got a bonus if it failed because they, they want
to encourage ideas, right. And I'm a, that's just, I'm an
(36:31):
innovative thinker. I always am coming up with crazy
ideas. And, and you know, I have my, my
best friend on the department. He always tells me that I, I
have too many and I, I make themread too many books.
But just yesterday we had that all-encompassing command staff
and had every supervisor I excused, I asked the lieutenants
to step out because I wanted to make sure that these there was
(36:54):
no bottlenecks in the communication process.
Or we asked all the, the lower, the lower supervisors than the
lieutenants. You know, would it be beneficial
for you guys to have a separate meeting with just, you know, the
sheriff and I in the captain's. And I said, actually, we will
leave the captain's out because I want to make sure that you
(37:14):
guys, if you're coming up with ideas, that they're not being
thwarted at the shift level, right?
You know, I said, I've been there.
You know, I, I've come up with ideas and I would go to my, my
shift commander and they would just be so yeah, we ain't doing
that, you know, or, Oh yeah, I'll bring it up.
And then nothing ever happens. And you're like, what's going
(37:35):
on, right. So I, I just want a level of
like transparency, innovation, like we have core values, you
know, that are integrity, leadership, ethical,
accountability and duty, right? That's what we came up with
because mine, that I teach in myleadership classes is ideal.
(37:55):
And it, it just sounded better with I lead, you know, but I, I
teal, I, I talk about integrity,transparency, being ethical,
lawful. And you've always had like, if
you do all those things, you will 100% of the time be
accountable, right? Like, you know, and so
transparency, transparency is, is super important.
(38:16):
And I teach that in my ethics class in the Academy too, like
about just being, you know, accountable for all your
actions. So I know I kind of went down a
little couple rabbit holes there.
I the way those rolled off your tongue, I'm like, I know that's
not the first time you've used those like and then you say
everyday just in and hearing youtalk and you know, talking about
(38:36):
families and I love this like innovation and I don't know,
I'll speak for myself for a second and I'd love Ashley your
experience, But I I could remember being a kid in the late
1900s and just simple stuff likethe LPOA cookout, like it just
being I'm throw some hot dogs ona grill and a public pool and my
(39:02):
day was met, you know. Like.
And to your point, like you can't be the one grill and the
hot dogs and lifeguarding and you know, it does take a team to
make those things happen and it can, I don't know, those are fun
experiences. I had, yeah.
I mean, I think like that's one thing I present on.
I have a presentation that I give of what it was like for me
(39:23):
to be a child of a first responder to a lot of my people
on Kenosha. And like I do talk about that
and I do see a difference, but also like department size plays
a huge factor it seems like in it too.
But I have to agree, like the 4th of July has always been my
favorite because I used to, we got special treatment if we went
and my dad was working and, and things just being included in
his department. There are things I can speak on
(39:44):
his behalf a little bit. They're not, you know, you know,
100%, but because we have so much, so many moving parts right
now, building this Wellness program that like from my
clinical point of view, wanting to include families in a little
bit more educationally. What does it look like to have a
first responder in an OIS? What transpires by like keeping
families in the loop, right? I'm going to be hosting
(40:06):
eventually, hopefully with his approval at some point, days
like that to bring in spouses. Let's all sit together and let's
all talk about this feel included.
It's even things. Like that, because this is a
scary job, this is a big job. And when those events transpire,
if they already know it's going to come their way, right?
A little bit, obviously, like there is some ease to that too.
(40:28):
So like not only including families in the fun of what it
is, but also I really want to focus on including families in
the educational piece as well. I just want to go, yeah.
But we got to learn stuff. You got to learn stuff.
Yeah, I can't remember the last time we had, I think like a
cookout or something. It's been a, it's been probably
seven years. The price of eggs, it's just not
(40:51):
in the budget. Yeah, right.
Yeah, I mean time wise, I don't want to take all your time, but
is there anything that you want to share can be anything you
want at all to other admin just in general about mental health,
it's kind of any tips I mean that you would want to give
obviously listening to us and listening to other things.
What what are your thoughts? It's a pretty big question, so.
(41:13):
Yeah, it was a big one. Just be open minded, right?
Be, be willing to, to be innovative, be willing to do
things that your people want, right?
Listening to your people, givingthem that, giving them that
voice and empowering them to give decisions.
Because they're going to, if it's their decision, right?
They're going to buy in more to the, the culture shift, if you
(41:34):
will, right? And I know there's some
administrators out there that don't want to shift culture that
they they want to stay status quo, right?
Because what are the two things cops hate the most, right?
Change and stay in the same right?
So I mean, so you just you just have to be able to put yourself
2nd, 3rd, 4th, whatever it is, right?
(41:56):
I don't succeed in this organization unless my people
succeed in my success. I don't even know what that
looks like. I don't even know, right?
To me, it's leaving a legacy, right?
Leaving like this place. And I always tell my guys and
gals, right, leave the chair that you're sitting in currently
in a better place for the next person who takes it over, right?
(42:18):
Because when I walk out of the Sheriff's Office in three or
four years. You know, let me pull up my
countdown. Yeah, who's counting that?
No one's gonna. I'm not going to be missed.
They're not going to, they're not going to be sitting there
waiting for Justin Miller to make the next decision or, you
know, like they do right now. I, I try to just empower them
(42:38):
with the ability to make decisions without fear, without
repercussion. And I have to remind myself
sometimes that I do allow that and I can't get upset with them.
So I think being a leader is being an outside of your comfort
zone, right? That you have to sometimes step
right outside that comfort zone,right?
And doing things that don't feelcomfortable, you know, help
(43:00):
others, right? Just help others, even if they
don't ask. You know, my buddy that I talked
about loves the shame, the servant leadership, right?
We asked that question about what does servant leadership
mean to you, right? It's and it's a running joke.
Every time I'll do something forthem, I'll give them like a
little, Hey, I, I was the servant leader, buddy, you know,
(43:22):
but making sure your people are taken care of, making sure you
give them the, the, the, the means to do their jobs and the
ability to do their jobs of training the equipment, you
know, it all goes hand in hand because that's going to create a
better atmosphere for them to want to come to work.
So some of the positive things that I've seen in our
organization, because we've beenshifting our culture is we have
(43:45):
applicants all the time that come and say, I heard what
you're doing. I want to work here.
And this is the only place I've applied, right?
And in this culture and in this environment of law enforcement,
right, that you can pretty much walk in anywhere you want
because there's openings everywhere.
We have 0 vacancies right now. Zero.
I, I can say that we are the only agency in this area that
(44:08):
has 0 vacancies. So, so I, I feel like I'm hoping
it works. It's working, right?
But again, you gotta, we have tobuild our leaders that are
behind us too, right? And I talked about leadership
first management briefly earlier.
And I, I, I harp on that continuously at every single
chance I can get. When I get in front of one of my
(44:31):
supervisors or if they're struggling, or if I'm in, you
know, doing a evaluation, I talkabout leadership skills, right?
Just if you can't, if you can't be a leader in this
organization, you, you, you needto demote yourself because I
don't need managers, right? I can teach, I can teach a kid
off the street to come in and doa schedule or to push enter on
(44:54):
payroll. But for you to be out with your
people, walking around, being with your people, listening to
them, encouraging them, trainingthem, right?
Not just trying to discipline them at every turn, right?
And, and you know, that's another culture thing that I've
worked on as the discipline aspect, right?
And I try to make sure that our,my supervisors understand that
(45:16):
the root word of discipline is disciple, right?
It's to teach somebody to not dothat thing again.
So if discipline is to teach, and I get there's different
levels, but you need that first level of discipline is to teach
them to be a better employee because a better employee is
going to be a more productive employee.
(45:36):
And, and I think it just all goes into the whole mental
health thing, right? Just a culture of Wellness, if
you will. The system.
And I do have to say, you guys got me up 30 minutes earlier to
get to the gym today, Dang. What?
So it was it was a 355 wake up today.
(45:58):
That's the middle of the night is what I call Chief Deputy
Miller. I can't thank you enough.
And, and just talking about leadership role and, and you
kind of, you know, joking about looking at the calendar and I,
I'll give my husband a little bit of credit.
I think he would enjoy a lot of those books that you're reading
about leadership. But you know, kind of the job is
(46:19):
to make yourself obsolete. Like the whole point is to have
people. And, and he says that all the
time, Like you want to be coaching, teaching, leading
people that they don't need you like that they have those
skills. And I just want to say that that
is what I hear you say and describe.
And I just think that's incredible and wonderful and
speaks volumes that you don't have any open positions.
(46:41):
I don't know of any fire department, Police Department,
the EMT station that doesn't have at least one open position.
So kudos to you. From and our corrections we have
0 vacancies which is even more. We do.
Yeah, zero. We have.
We have actually have 5 over hires.
(47:03):
What? So yes.
OK, look at us. So I'm like, what?
That's awesome. Yeah.
It was. It's been a process when I took
over detentions. I don't want to prolong this,
but when I took over detentions in 2016 I had 26 vacancies.
Were the inmates running these? Pretty and and you know, not to
(47:25):
make anyone upset out in the world, but we had ICE detainees
back then. We don't any longer, but.
Yeah, but. Yeah.
So our our population was pushing 1000 every day, our jail
population. Got many jail.
That's wild. Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks for having me and appreciate it.
I hope I made administrators around the world better, or at
(47:49):
least I hope they're if those that are listening will change
their ways so we don't get shamed on podcasts anymore.
I'm sure for that I hope you felt welcomed here to share your
voice. Absolutely, Absolutely.
And we can't thank you enough because this is exactly what we
need, right? We need people to step up in
your position to advocate, to say these things.
(48:10):
We need to learn from you guys. And yet you're one of the first
ones that was willing to do it. So thank you.
Thank you so much. I'm.
Exactly. We're going.
To let them go. But we are our famous line, and
that's when the call hits home. Jennifer and I are here for you,
so thank you. Thank you so much.
All right, bye, bye.
Can I get the current number forEAPI have an employee here who
might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we
don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts.
And I'm like, OK, well, so at that point in, in this agency,
we didn't have a peer support team and it was just, there was
(00:20):
nothing I, there's no, I, I had nothing to do for that employee.
And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my
psych time, right. And so I just kind of counseled
them myself. But I I knew at that time that
we had to be better. Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley and we do have,
(00:40):
I'm just going to say it becauseit's like a running joke now, a
very special guest today. And this person has turned into
one of my very favorite humans quickly.
So I'm honored to have him on and I'm going to let him
introduce himself because we gota lot of good content today.
Hello, I'm Chief Deputy Justin Miller from the Kenosha
Sheriff's Office, Kenosha County, Wisconsin.
I've been in law enforcement since 2002 and prior to that I
(01:04):
was in the Navy as a psychiatrictechnician.
Which is, I know in Jennifer's face it's like, wait, what?
Yeah, yeah, this is a podcast, but if you guys saw my face, I
did not know that was on your resume.
My. Goodness.
Yeah, it's really hard because he knows all the insurance and
outs too, like he's, he's with it.
The the old insurance and outs. No, no, he's amazing.
(01:26):
I was about to make a bad joke. OK, well, we're excited that
you're here today, and I appreciate your time and I
appreciate you sharing that you're a chief deputy.
And I think that's kind of what we want to talk a little bit
today in terms of your title andwhat it means to be leadership
and law enforcement. And I just kind of want to ask,
when did you recognize that investing in mental Wellness for
the officers you would serve should be a priority or
(01:48):
prioritized? Yeah, so I touched a little bit
on some of my background, but yeah, psych tech in the Navy
from 95 to 2000. And I think about my time when I
work back in the field, it kind of opened my eyes to the world
of mental health and full moons.Full moons are a real thing and.
Real. Thing inpatient psych world
those are that's a real thing, But I worked in the inpatient
(02:10):
unit at Great Lakes and I think about the medications that we
administered as Navy corpsman basically did the work of
nurses, right We we actually gave the shots and administered
medications did the surgeries, things like that right but I
remember like watching the thoseside effects of those
medications, you know, the cantonic shuffle, the tardive
(02:33):
dyskinesia, you know, things youwould see in like those old
movies, but then that you would see it in real life and it was
like surreal, right. You know, my mom's uncle was
inpatient unit when I was growing up, so I can still
remember the smell of, of the psych unit when you would walk
in and it smelled the same way when I was in the Navy.
And then when I got out and I went to Arizona State
(02:54):
University, I worked as a psych tech in the Maricopa County
Hospital, which was totally different than my time in the
Navy because basically like the little room that you're sitting
in, I did a lot of coloring activities with the the patients
and fed them, right. We didn't, we couldn't
administer medication. So in my time with the Sheriff's
Office, I would say that, you know, I experienced a couple
(03:17):
major personal life events in myfirst seven years as a deputy,
one of them being I had a significant other who committed
suicide. And then I lost my mom in 2009
and she was like my best friend.So there is no help offered or
even compassion given within this organization, right?
(03:38):
And you know, another event I recall is I was at my uncle's
funeral and I got a call from the department and, and the
supervisor on the other end of the phone was ordering me in for
duty like immediately, right? And I was like, I'm at my
uncle's funeral. And he's and his response was,
and I quote this. Well, uncles are not covered by
(04:00):
funeral leave, so you have to come in.
And I remember going to my family and my like, hey, I gotta
leave because I just got orderedinto work and they were like
dumbfounded and just like, I couldn't even participate in the
funeral for my uncle, right? Right.
(04:20):
So that that was so I Fast forward, you know, to my second
assignment as a Sergeant, you know, I get promoted and again,
I get promoted, I think, OK, I'mgoing to have a voice in this
game, right? And not necessarily that mental
health was that on my priority list.
But even in the military, you always want to be promoted
because you want to be better than the people.
That, and I use this in a loose term, LED you, or I should say
(04:44):
manage you because there's a difference between leaders and
managers, right? I can teach anyone to manage
somebody, but to actually lead them is, I think it's a calling,
But I won't go into that right now.
I think that's a good. Point though I appreciate that
it is. So I was assigned to the
conveyance unit and one of my employees had some, let's just
(05:05):
say major mental health issues that they're dealing with.
And on one of our filing cabinets, I remember there was
this magnet for EAP, right? And I just remember seeing that
magnet. Never heard anything talked
about EAP, nothing, you know, SoI gave the employee that
information, sent him on their way.
Well, they returned like 15 minutes later and said, yeah,
(05:27):
the county isn't covered by thatanymore.
And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, they
said that we're not covered, that this this is an old number
or something. So I called my HR and I was
like, excuse me, can I get the current number for EAPI?
Have an employee here who might need some services.
(05:48):
Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to
budget cuts. And I'm like, okay, well, so at
that point in, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support
team and it was just there was nothing there's no, I had
nothing to do for that employee and I kind of felt like a loss
(06:08):
other than what I knew from my psych time, right?
And so I just kind of counseled them myself.
But I knew at that time that we had to be better, right?
However, being a Sergeant in that old, in that old culture of
the department that I work in, Ihad no voice, you know, again.
So I'm like, all right, well, I got to be promoted Lieutenant to
have a voice. Well, again, find out that
(06:30):
that's not the case. So when I was promoted to
captain in 2016, again, I finally, finally would be able
to be heard because I got to sitat the table.
So some other incidents that took place in our agency over
the years that I just, you know,I'll never forget is just a
couple officer involved shootingcalls.
One in particular, I, I was coming out from 3rd shift and we
(06:54):
were, I was asked to bring out the less lethal beanbag gun,
right? But I'm like, OK, and I was AI
was a hostage negotiator back inmy day, right?
And they're at a barricaded. Well, guy was just in his car
barricaded, but had a long gun and the SWAT team was out there.
So I was asked to bring out thisless lethal.
(07:15):
So I bring it out and I remembermy boss was negotiating at the
back of a squad car. And so I run up to the back of
the squad car with this gun and I'm like, I'm like, Hey, where
is the guy? And he like points and he's like
literally 10 feet in front of us.
And so I'm as soon as I get there, you know, I hear, you
(07:35):
know, I see the SWAT team, I see, you know, everyone's kind
of around. And I, he's trying to
communicate with him. And I see this guy's long gun
come out of his window. And then just shots just rained
out, right? And I was like, oh, I'm like,
what, what just happened, right?So I remember having to go, I, I
(07:56):
got assigned to go with, I mean,the guy who was killed, I, I got
assigned to go with the body to the, to the hospital.
And then once I cleared the hospital, they had me bring the
mobile command, our mobile command Center for interviews
and things like that. And I remember the union
requesting time for the officersto, you know, leave, you know,
kind of what the protocols are now, right?
(08:18):
You don't have to talk right away.
There's a, you know, a level of decompression.
All those things demanded actually ordered them to all
stay on scene. And they were interviewed one by
one in this command post, right?So, and I think, OK, knowing
what I know now, right? I didn't know any better back
(08:38):
then, but knowing what I know now, I'm like, Oh my God, that
was a horrible decision. The the trauma that they just
experienced. I mean, you know, I went to the
ER with this body and I'm like, I just remember, I can still see
like the guy looked like Swiss cheese, you know, I mean, it
was, it was like almost like stuff I've seen in the military
(08:59):
from, you know, combat versus, you know, I'm wait, I'm out on
the street. And I was probably only a couple
years on at that point, you know.
And so I think about that and then I remember that those
officers that were involved weretold to come back to work in 48
hours and go back on to their shifts and got zero critical
incident trustee briefs, 0 opportunity to have counseling
(09:24):
sessions where we didn't have the AP.
Because this was well before thebad magnet, right?
There was, you know, a handful of different officer involved
shootings that happened over my time up into my, you know,
actually when I was first assigned a second shift as a
Lieutenant, one of my first months on, we had an officer
(09:45):
involved shooting and I actuallybought my shift food, right?
I, I brought it to to kind of our safe zone or if you will,
right, and I bought them food out of my petty cash and I got
my butt chewed for weeks, right,because I wasn't supposed to buy
food out of my petty cash. It's not authorized.
(10:08):
And so and, you know, Fast forward, I just buy it out of my
own money now, but it whatever, you know it.
So I just remember that was the culture, though.
The culture was you don't, I felt like you don't take care of
your people. You just make sure that you're
operationally ready and, and, you know, then those officers
again got, you know, thrown backinto the road in 72 hours and
(10:29):
told, you know, rub some dirt onit, you know, get back out
there. I think the most powerful thing
about that though, in our position, right, is like what
you're saying still happens. Those negative things still
happen at a lot of departments. Like we still hear that today,
right? And so I think that can be the
challenge and the frustration islike, and it's amazing that
you're on here being open and talking about that, especially
(10:51):
in your position, because like for us as clinicians, right,
like we, we hear, we still hear of all those negative things of
people being like, oh, well, suck it up and get back out
there. Oh well.
And it's like, what, how are we still in this position?
And so it's important for us. I, I do want to ask you, what is
your department's current strategy for supporting the
mental Wellness of your officersafter having that culture shift?
(11:12):
What are you trying to implement?
Yeah. So I would say that it's my
personal number one priority in the twilight of my career,
something that I've been pretty passionate about for years, you
know, been trying to change thatculture.
I've been told my ideas were toograndiose, out of touch with
reality, you know. But over the last eight years,
I've witnessed agencies all overthe United States implementing
(11:35):
the very things that I would talk about, right?
Those cutting edge, you know, mental health days, mental
Wellness rooms. I mean, in West Virginia, they
have AI think it's called the Hero Center.
It's like a mental Health Center, like, right?
Like they have a gym, a room next floor has all those massage
chairs and the next floor is just a meditation room.
(11:57):
But those things I've always like, I'm like, OK, why can't we
work out on duty, right? Or whatever.
It doesn't have to be work out. Whatever you want to do for an
hour, nap, siesta, whenever you know, meditate.
What? Like why does it, you know, why
does your, you know, 10-7 or your lunch have to be eating
(12:19):
food, right? Why can't we just do whatever we
want during that time? So I think our strategy is to
provide a psychologically safe workplace.
And again, I've been reading this book, the Fearless
Organization that just talks about creating a psychologically
safe workplace that you can feelsupported.
Our employees have a voice, right?
(12:39):
Making sure that everybody has avoice at all levels, have any
and all resources that are available and at their
fingertips, right. We've actually partnered with
this amazing provider that shares some of those same
visions as I do. So I think we're getting there.
I've heard about. That provider.
Yeah, I mean, other than being aBears fan.
That's fine. Kidding, I'm not a Packer fan so
(13:02):
it doesn't matter. Now we actually get along very
well because of that. Right, right.
But currently we have an app called Cortico, which is, you
know, and kind of a one stop shop for Wellness, if you will.
There's different programs in there.
There's one touch provider like,you know, we can program in
providers and they just have to hit the button.
(13:25):
It calls that provider similar peer support has meal planning,
all these different things, workouts.
It's it's pretty robust. We also offer smart dollar from
Ramsey solutions, which is a which is a, which is a financial
Wellness piece, peer support. But the financial Wellness is
probably one of my larger passions now and in the later
(13:48):
stages of my life because, you know, I wasn't taught proper
financial guidance, you know, asfrom my parents or even in the
military. And I, I just think that, you
know, it, it goes hand in hand. I think, I think the mental
health of our officers, there's three, three or four things,
right? Your physical Wellness, right?
(14:08):
Your financial Wellness, your spiritual Wellness, and really
your resiliency to get over things that may or may not have
happened to you in your life, right?
Not being a victim of your circumstances, if you will.
But the financial piece is that,you know, if somebody is so much
in debt or they're living paycheck to paycheck or they're
(14:30):
budgeting based on their overtime, right?
That creates so much stress in their life that every other part
of their life is going to be affected.
And I've heard you guys talk about it on your podcast about
how important the finances are. And so I think offering this
program and I, and I get it, people are like, if you listen
to Dave Ramsey on, on his podcast, right?
(14:51):
He, he's very to the point, right?
He he doesn't hold anything backin he he could be an acquired
taste, right? And, and I know people don't, I
don't people don't they like they, they like to play that
airline credit card points, these anti credit cards, you
know, things like that. But I always say out of Clark
Howard, I don't know if you guysknow who Clark Howard is, but
(15:12):
he's another financial guru thatI grew up listening to on the AM
radio, right? He still has his own podcast.
But if those two had a baby, I think they'd be perfect because
they they do, I mean, but they do offer a lot of good advice.
So these younger, you know, I teach in the Academy and I teach
officer Wellness in the Academy and, and I've incorporated a lot
(15:33):
of the financial Wellness because it used to be there is
only one slide. The state gives me one slot 1
slide on financial Wellness and it's the very last slide of a
four hour presentation. So I try to incorporate that
more throughout the entire presentation, throughout the
entire class. But a lot of it is I tell these
(15:53):
kids, right, how many of you this is your first job that
you've ever worked, right? Like real job, you know, because
we can have 18 year olds in these classes, you know, you
only need to be 18 to be a cop in the state of Wisconsin.
So they, they range from 18 years old to, I mean, we've had
people as old as 50 in the class.
So they have such different lifeexperiences within that class in
(16:15):
a lot of those prior military folks, right?
They, they kind of can help mentor those younger officers
because those of us in the military, we made the mistakes
of going across the street and buying the car for 50% interest
because it was cool, right? Even though they told us not to.
We just like we're going. I think the financial piece is
(16:37):
good, yeah. Well, I just, I, I appreciate
you bringing that up. There's a book called The
Psychology of Money, and I'm of course I'm blanking on the
author's name, but you know, thefinances stuff.
If it was just a numbers of 2 + 2 = 4, I think we would all be
able to manage money. That would be a simple black and
white thing. And yet it's a real soft skill
(16:59):
where emotions are so involved. Like I want the cool car because
that might make me feel cool. You know, you have to kind of
dig through some of that too. And I think that there's this
real marriage of rationale and feelings when it comes to
spending money. So I, I don't mean to get us off
track too much, but I appreciate.
You. Up in terms of financial stress
(17:22):
is a mental drain. And so it is address something
like that. That's a skill.
Like that's a good one. You kind of answered a little
bit of my questions in terms of like how you prioritize mental
Wellness and that is kind of a compassion of yours as a leader.
I want to go back a little bit and I'd, you might not have an
(17:42):
answer to this question, but I'mgoing to ask it anyways.
I appreciate you being so honestabout, hey, I was a Sergeant,
I'm going to have a voice. Oh, wait, I don't have a voice.
Oh, I got promoted to Lieutenant, I'm going to have a
voice. Oh, wait, I don't have a voice.
Do you have in your experience why that is or what happened in
those situations that maybe I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, I can. I can give my theory on it, I
(18:06):
guess. I think it was the same as in
the military, right? There's like you're following
this old school thought process.You're following these grizzled,
salty veterans that they, they know it all right.
They're the most important person in every room they walk
into. They're the smartest person of
every room they walk into. They're not humble at all.
(18:28):
There's no humility. I think one of the most
important things I learned when I was a new supervisor is they
made us take out a piece of paper and they write, they said,
they write this down and you're like, all right, you're all
eager, right? I, I am not the most important.
I am the least important person in my organization because as a
(18:49):
supervisor, you only matter a little bit, right?
Your people matter more. Your people are more important,
right? Your, your employees without
your employees, you are, you're not a supervisor, you're not a
leader, right? You don't you, you need them to,
you know, and the, and the higher up you go in the
organizations, the more important that really is.
(19:12):
I think so. I think they bought.
I think along the way the old culture was, you know, I
remembered JFD, you know, you guys, just you guys can figure
out the F do it, right? That's what that's what they
would say. JFD deputy like this generation,
that of our new employees, right?
This new generation is a why they want to know why, right?
(19:35):
They want to know what the valuethey're going to get out of
doing what you want them to do, right?
So we have to provide, and I think even my generation, I
think there's a cultural shift in every generation, right?
And the inability to shift with that culture as a supervisor or
the inability to not be able to learn how to lead those new
(19:56):
generations is problematic. You know, I said I would talk
about a couple books, The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lincione,
right? It talks about three key things.
It's being humble, hungry and smart, right?
So humble. The humility, right, that that
(20:16):
speaks for ourselves, but we have to be able, we have to be
have humility in our lives. We have to be able to be humble.
And that's what we look for in our candidates, right?
And I ask every supervisor candidate in an interview what
it, what humility means to them,right?
And I asked them these three things.
I actually asked them all of them hungry is the ability to
(20:38):
continue to learn, right? To continue to grow.
You know, I'm sure you've heard the term leaders are readers,
right? We we constantly have to be
filling ourselves with, you know, substantive matter, you
know, like things that matter tous.
And, you know, as and Ashley knows I listen to way too many
podcasts. I read way too many books.
(21:00):
Maybe a lot. You know, sometimes I get like
I'm all over the place being hungry is that, but being smart
is the emotional intelligence part.
Like how can you read your own emotions?
And how do you read others rightwhen you react into situations?
Do you if an employee is comes to you and you know, you guys
are having an argument, are you blacking out?
(21:21):
Are you shaking uncontrollably? And I mean, I used to have a lip
quiver. If my lip would quiver, the
employee's like, all right, I'm leaving.
But I've learned how to control all that stuff.
Like I've learned how to controlmy emotions.
I know it triggers me. I, I've, I, So it's all about
trying to learn those type of things.
(21:42):
And I think the old generation just maybe didn't embrace
concepts like that or didn't have concepts like that.
You know, I first of all, I appreciate you willing to share
that and kind of what your experience instead of that.
And I think sometimes it can be,well, when it's my turn, I'm
going to do what they did to me.Like it is this like I have I
(22:05):
have the crown. And so they better bow down.
And I really want to thank you and celebrate the fact that you
had those experiences and said, well, now I'm at the top.
So I'll tell everybody to shut up and said doing the way that a
good leader would be being like actually the best information we
get is from the people that are working.
(22:26):
What feedback do they have in terms of how we can help and be
supportive of to their jobs. So thank you for.
That, yeah. And I think too, right.
Like the way we got here was from you listening to us and and
being a little frustrated with the things that we had to say
about admin and how that can look in organizations.
(22:48):
And I remember at first being like, well, I'm going to swear.
Oh shit. Like he might be angry with me
for a second. But then I was like, I actually
appreciate this because your anger shows me that you care.
It's your passion, right? And like, all I can ask for,
yeah, you're hungry. That's a great point.
All I can ask for is for people in your positions to listen to
(23:08):
us and to reflect on that, right?
And to be like, when we're not all like that, we can make
change. Like, we want to make change.
And. And I loved that because I was
like, this is kind of the point.I would rather make someone
frustrated, but thinking about it then not at all right.
And so I do kind of want to shift a little bit to asking you
like how you how do you address some of that stigma with your
(23:30):
own officers being in the role that you are in, in leadership?
Well, so the stigma thing is crazy.
Like I, I was my master's program at Arizona State was on
human communication. And this is one of the things I
tried to study is like the stigma of why officers don't
speak to anyone, right? Why they don't come forward with
(23:50):
their stressors or whatever's going on in their life.
And unfortunately, in the program, there is not a lot of
research out there on it. So I kind of hit a lot of dead
ends. But I think we need to again,
create that psychologically safeworkplace, making sure that
people are able to talk if they're willing, educating our
(24:12):
staff on mental health, the effects of PTSD.
I don't have where I read it, but I read that an average
officer in their career has 100,sees 180 to 200 critical
incidents in their career. The average layperson like
normal person, sees one to five in their lifetime, right?
(24:32):
And the five is more females, unfortunately, because of the
sexual abuse and things like that.
So again, I teach at the Academyfor the past nine years and been
teaching college classes since 2009.
So I've made it a priority to erase that stigma or, you know,
just talk about the stigma and the fact that it it's being
(24:53):
broken down. And there is people like myself
and hopefully a lot of other administrators out there that
embrace the mental health programs that are starting to
become prevalent. So I hope that with new each
generation of officers that kindof dissipates, right?
That stigma will go away, right as the old school mentality rub
(25:16):
dirt on it. Officers retire that new
generation that's been hearing the message at least for the
last 10 years because I think it's still in the new space, you
know, within our profession thatthey, they will start to
outnumber those old salty, you know, officers.
And then that whole culture shifts and then that stigma
(25:39):
maybe erases itself. I don't know.
I'm gonna real quick and then you take over.
But I kind of have to call you out a little bit on a positive
too, is that I think something you do really, really well is
you take yourself outside of your role and you're just a
human with your people at times too, right?
So like, one example of that would be that I don't know why
you wake up at the ass crack of dawn to work out, Like you wake
(26:00):
up at the ass crack of dawn to go work out and you work out at
the at the building. So other people are working out
with you, right? Like you don't, you don't
separate yourself from that. And I think that that speaks
volume, I think, to others, too,of just like, seeing you for who
you are as a human rather than just your role at the Sheriff's
Office, you know? And I think you do that in other
(26:20):
places in your life as well, which is really special to
people because people struggle with that, right?
Or they'll avoid those things when they're in roles such as
yours because they let that takeover.
And that's their identity. And I don't think you do that.
And I think you do a really goodjob just being a human too, like
finding that balance. Well my my employees do say if
I'm not making fun of them then I'm probably pissed off for the
(26:41):
day. So.
Go ahead. Well, I have to say I'm just
really impressed that you didn'tmake a budget for a private gym
just for the chief deputy that only you, you that no one can
look. At right, right.
I wish. Sometimes the music is pretty
loud. I've heard about the music
debacle. I'm like the old.
(27:01):
Guy, get off my lawn. Put the music down.
Well, I, I, I'm going rogue a little bit here, but you know, I
appreciate you really giving feedback, You know, to Ashley of
like, hey, you know, you're kindof raking admin over the coals a
little bit. Like give us a chance to talk
(27:22):
and, and recognize like we are trying to do better and are
doing better. I want to say that as well.
I guess I kind of want to ask like feedback for mental health
providers, you know, you really are trying to partner and talk
about Wellness and, and supporting officers.
You know, what do you need from the mental health providers,
(27:44):
from from resources, things likethat for officers.
How can we do better? Clone yourselves.
There's there's not enough right?
I mean, in, in any realm, you know, I mean, I remember my, my
daughter was 16 and she was having, you know what 16 year
olds go through and I called EAPfor her and they were like,
(28:06):
yeah, it's a six month wait. You know, so not, it's not just
in our realm, but in, in all of mental health world profession,
right? There's just, there's not enough
providers. There's not enough folks like
yourselves that have the passionto help us.
Sometimes we're the helpless, I'm sure, because you know, just
(28:28):
we're type A personalities by the way that we are raised and
brought up and then the culture of our profession and the not
willingness to talk at some, youknow, so it once you
breakthrough our hard candy shell, you know, we're we're
sweet. You are sweet.
Pretty. Gooey inside.
(28:49):
Yeah, but, you know, I think just the continued support and
doing what you guys do. I mean, seriously, it's it was
such a blessing that Ashley cameinto our organization's life,
right? It was, I don't even know, it
was kind of wasn't really a planned event.
I think it was just kind of like, hey, we're all in the
right place at the right time. And yeah, I think just the
(29:14):
continued support and putting the message out there that, you
know, we're humans too and, and we see a lot and sometimes we
need to talk about it. And you know, and, and I, you
know, from the administrative thing, I hope, you know, you
guys have 100 administrators that are crotchety that are out
there listening to this. And and they matter, right?
(29:36):
Like it matter. The top matters because it does
without without the ability or the, the the want to bring these
type of programs into your agencies.
There is nothing, right. EAP is such a small little
sliver and, and, and if you don't, if you're not, if your
EAP is not fortunate enough to have a provider that's
(29:58):
specifically geared toward firstresponders, it's not going to
matter, right? It, I mean, it's just going to
touch the surface and it's not going to really be able to dig
deep into what do we see everyday?
Like what, you know, understanding our profession
and, you know, I, I talked to Ashley about this, like, OK,
(30:19):
well, I think about combat veterans, right?
You know, the, the VA system that we get disability for PTSD
at some point. These, these organizations,
these counties and municipalities, the states,
right? Where, when is the, when, when
are they going to take PTSD seriously for our profession,
(30:40):
right? So again, I'm, I'm in the fight
with county, you know, politicians that support you
with their mouths and their hearts and they want to hug you
and oh, we're so. Yeah.
But when it comes to giving us money for these programs, you
know, it's they would prioritize, you know, big pens
(31:03):
over the mental illness of of our officers.
So I don't, I tend to not have much of A filter, as Ashley
knows. So when I get in front of the
politicians and county board meetings, I just let him know
how it is. And, you know, it's already too
late. We've been fortunate enough to
not have any suicides, but we'vehad officers kill them on a
(31:25):
duty. And actually, one of my good
friends, you know, just tragically passed away a few
years ago. He was a detective.
But yeah. And it's it's already too late,
right? But if something happens, we've
asked, we've asked, we've asked,we've asked.
I tell them the blood is on yourhands, right?
It's on your hands because there's funds available, right?
(31:49):
But we won't get into the politics of it.
But at some point, they have to put up the the dollars, you
know, to, to support this initiative.
Yeah, and I think for me too, that's a whole learning curve
for me coming into the Sheriff'sOffice is the political side
because it's very intense and it's very frustrating.
(32:10):
And also though it's the realityof like, aren't we all working
for better communities, safer communities, better relations?
And yet we have to start somewhere.
And I talked, I've talked a lot about this on here.
I'm a huge systems theory person.
And like if we're taking care ofour deputies, you know, like on
the individual basis, they're going to be better when they get
out on the road, they're going to be better for our communities
(32:32):
and I better work. I don't know how that's an
argument Like so I that's what frustrates me is like seeing it
from that angle too. Like we if you invest in your
people who are doing these jobs and making them better, then
yes, your communities are going to get better too.
Like it's how it works as a system.
So yeah, that whole stuff is extremely frustrating and I
(32:54):
don't know how you do it day after day.
It's not my favorite part of thejob.
And I think it was there's insulation at the lower levels
or there was, right. But we try to expose them more
to it now earlier on in their supervisory careers because
it's, it's a shock and awe at some point, you know, and I'd
(33:15):
rather them see and be like a transparency, right?
See what we see. So they know when we're making
decisions. It's not just us.
There's other stakeholders that create problems for our
initiatives, if you will. You know, you spoke earlier
about finances and how that's a thing, you know, outside of the
(33:37):
job that can cause stress. You know, Ashley and I are here
not because we are first responders, but because we grew
up in those homes. And so just thinking about the
families and you have an incredible resume and, and
changing a culture in any place is one of the hardest things you
can do. And I can clearly see the
efforts that have been made. But I was just curious in terms
(33:59):
of, and I appreciate you sharingthat you're a parent, like what
impact or what you know goals down the line or what would you
love to see in terms of how families and family Wellness is
incorporated? Yeah, I think it's, it's pretty
paramount to a successful Wellness program, to be honest.
(34:21):
You know, and I, I'm guilty of insulating my spouse from the,
the traumas of this job. And even my children, you know,
granted most of their, their years of comprehending what
their dad does have been in a supervisory role.
So a little less danger than when they were babies.
(34:42):
Right now, we currently, they have access to everything that
we have the Cortico. They get, you know, the Cortico
app. My, my daughter actually used it
while she was in college down inFlorida and she needed some help
and it worked out really well. We give all of our family
members and I've even extended it to extended family for the
smart dollar app because we pay for 400 licenses and if HR is
(35:06):
listening, just kidding no. And then they also obviously
have EAP available to them. So I, I think we for what we
have currently we've incorporated but.
That's great. That's way more than many.
They need to be more involved though.
And, and I think there's plans, you know, we've talked about
(35:28):
dinners, you know, family dinners with, you know, like,
you know, wife's kids. We have, we've had family days
in the past. My issue is, and if any of my
people are listening, they're going to be upset.
But I can't do it all. I need people that have the same
passions and we need to capture those people somehow and that
(35:48):
they have a vision that is hopefully more grandiose than
mine. They can, they can come with the
ideas. And that's kind of like, you
know, I was talking that book. It talks about like making sure
that there's teams like that in your organization that can just
throw stuff at the wall and nobody's going to get upset by
(36:11):
it. It's just an idea, right?
And they talk about Google X projects in there and you know,
and they actually, if you're, ifyou ran your idea from start to
finish, you got a bonus if it failed because they, they want
to encourage ideas, right. And I'm a, that's just, I'm an
(36:31):
innovative thinker. I always am coming up with crazy
ideas. And, and you know, I have my, my
best friend on the department. He always tells me that I, I
have too many and I, I make themread too many books.
But just yesterday we had that all-encompassing command staff
and had every supervisor I excused, I asked the lieutenants
to step out because I wanted to make sure that these there was
(36:54):
no bottlenecks in the communication process.
Or we asked all the, the lower, the lower supervisors than the
lieutenants. You know, would it be beneficial
for you guys to have a separate meeting with just, you know, the
sheriff and I in the captain's. And I said, actually, we will
leave the captain's out because I want to make sure that you
(37:14):
guys, if you're coming up with ideas, that they're not being
thwarted at the shift level, right?
You know, I said, I've been there.
You know, I, I've come up with ideas and I would go to my, my
shift commander and they would just be so yeah, we ain't doing
that, you know, or, Oh yeah, I'll bring it up.
And then nothing ever happens. And you're like, what's going
(37:35):
on, right. So I, I just want a level of
like transparency, innovation, like we have core values, you
know, that are integrity, leadership, ethical,
accountability and duty, right? That's what we came up with
because mine, that I teach in myleadership classes is ideal.
(37:55):
And it, it just sounded better with I lead, you know, but I, I
teal, I, I talk about integrity,transparency, being ethical,
lawful. And you've always had like, if
you do all those things, you will 100% of the time be
accountable, right? Like, you know, and so
transparency, transparency is, is super important.
(38:16):
And I teach that in my ethics class in the Academy too, like
about just being, you know, accountable for all your
actions. So I know I kind of went down a
little couple rabbit holes there.
I the way those rolled off your tongue, I'm like, I know that's
not the first time you've used those like and then you say
everyday just in and hearing youtalk and you know, talking about
(38:36):
families and I love this like innovation and I don't know,
I'll speak for myself for a second and I'd love Ashley your
experience, But I I could remember being a kid in the late
1900s and just simple stuff likethe LPOA cookout, like it just
being I'm throw some hot dogs ona grill and a public pool and my
(39:02):
day was met, you know. Like.
And to your point, like you can't be the one grill and the
hot dogs and lifeguarding and you know, it does take a team to
make those things happen and it can, I don't know, those are fun
experiences. I had, yeah.
I mean, I think like that's one thing I present on.
I have a presentation that I give of what it was like for me
(39:23):
to be a child of a first responder to a lot of my people
on Kenosha. And like I do talk about that
and I do see a difference, but also like department size plays
a huge factor it seems like in it too.
But I have to agree, like the 4th of July has always been my
favorite because I used to, we got special treatment if we went
and my dad was working and, and things just being included in
his department. There are things I can speak on
(39:44):
his behalf a little bit. They're not, you know, you know,
100%, but because we have so much, so many moving parts right
now, building this Wellness program that like from my
clinical point of view, wanting to include families in a little
bit more educationally. What does it look like to have a
first responder in an OIS? What transpires by like keeping
families in the loop, right? I'm going to be hosting
(40:06):
eventually, hopefully with his approval at some point, days
like that to bring in spouses. Let's all sit together and let's
all talk about this feel included.
It's even things. Like that, because this is a
scary job, this is a big job. And when those events transpire,
if they already know it's going to come their way, right?
A little bit, obviously, like there is some ease to that too.
(40:28):
So like not only including families in the fun of what it
is, but also I really want to focus on including families in
the educational piece as well. I just want to go, yeah.
But we got to learn stuff. You got to learn stuff.
Yeah, I can't remember the last time we had, I think like a
cookout or something. It's been a, it's been probably
seven years. The price of eggs, it's just not
(40:51):
in the budget. Yeah, right.
Yeah, I mean time wise, I don't want to take all your time, but
is there anything that you want to share can be anything you
want at all to other admin just in general about mental health,
it's kind of any tips I mean that you would want to give
obviously listening to us and listening to other things.
What what are your thoughts? It's a pretty big question, so.
(41:13):
Yeah, it was a big one. Just be open minded, right?
Be, be willing to, to be innovative, be willing to do
things that your people want, right?
Listening to your people, givingthem that, giving them that
voice and empowering them to give decisions.
Because they're going to, if it's their decision, right?
They're going to buy in more to the, the culture shift, if you
(41:34):
will, right? And I know there's some
administrators out there that don't want to shift culture that
they they want to stay status quo, right?
Because what are the two things cops hate the most, right?
Change and stay in the same right?
So I mean, so you just you just have to be able to put yourself
2nd, 3rd, 4th, whatever it is, right?
(41:56):
I don't succeed in this organization unless my people
succeed in my success. I don't even know what that
looks like. I don't even know, right?
To me, it's leaving a legacy, right?
Leaving like this place. And I always tell my guys and
gals, right, leave the chair that you're sitting in currently
in a better place for the next person who takes it over, right?
(42:18):
Because when I walk out of the Sheriff's Office in three or
four years. You know, let me pull up my
countdown. Yeah, who's counting that?
No one's gonna. I'm not going to be missed.
They're not going to, they're not going to be sitting there
waiting for Justin Miller to make the next decision or, you
know, like they do right now. I, I try to just empower them
(42:38):
with the ability to make decisions without fear, without
repercussion. And I have to remind myself
sometimes that I do allow that and I can't get upset with them.
So I think being a leader is being an outside of your comfort
zone, right? That you have to sometimes step
right outside that comfort zone,right?
And doing things that don't feelcomfortable, you know, help
(43:00):
others, right? Just help others, even if they
don't ask. You know, my buddy that I talked
about loves the shame, the servant leadership, right?
We asked that question about what does servant leadership
mean to you, right? It's and it's a running joke.
Every time I'll do something forthem, I'll give them like a
little, Hey, I, I was the servant leader, buddy, you know,
(43:22):
but making sure your people are taken care of, making sure you
give them the, the, the, the means to do their jobs and the
ability to do their jobs of training the equipment, you
know, it all goes hand in hand because that's going to create a
better atmosphere for them to want to come to work.
So some of the positive things that I've seen in our
organization, because we've beenshifting our culture is we have
(43:45):
applicants all the time that come and say, I heard what
you're doing. I want to work here.
And this is the only place I've applied, right?
And in this culture and in this environment of law enforcement,
right, that you can pretty much walk in anywhere you want
because there's openings everywhere.
We have 0 vacancies right now. Zero.
I, I can say that we are the only agency in this area that
(44:08):
has 0 vacancies. So, so I, I feel like I'm hoping
it works. It's working, right?
But again, you gotta, we have tobuild our leaders that are
behind us too, right? And I talked about leadership
first management briefly earlier.
And I, I, I harp on that continuously at every single
chance I can get. When I get in front of one of my
(44:31):
supervisors or if they're struggling, or if I'm in, you
know, doing a evaluation, I talkabout leadership skills, right?
Just if you can't, if you can't be a leader in this
organization, you, you, you needto demote yourself because I
don't need managers, right? I can teach, I can teach a kid
off the street to come in and doa schedule or to push enter on
(44:54):
payroll. But for you to be out with your
people, walking around, being with your people, listening to
them, encouraging them, trainingthem, right?
Not just trying to discipline them at every turn, right?
And, and you know, that's another culture thing that I've
worked on as the discipline aspect, right?
And I try to make sure that our,my supervisors understand that
(45:16):
the root word of discipline is disciple, right?
It's to teach somebody to not dothat thing again.
So if discipline is to teach, and I get there's different
levels, but you need that first level of discipline is to teach
them to be a better employee because a better employee is
going to be a more productive employee.
(45:36):
And, and I think it just all goes into the whole mental
health thing, right? Just a culture of Wellness, if
you will. The system.
And I do have to say, you guys got me up 30 minutes earlier to
get to the gym today, Dang. What?
So it was it was a 355 wake up today.
(45:58):
That's the middle of the night is what I call Chief Deputy
Miller. I can't thank you enough.
And, and just talking about leadership role and, and you
kind of, you know, joking about looking at the calendar and I,
I'll give my husband a little bit of credit.
I think he would enjoy a lot of those books that you're reading
about leadership. But you know, kind of the job is
(46:19):
to make yourself obsolete. Like the whole point is to have
people. And, and he says that all the
time, Like you want to be coaching, teaching, leading
people that they don't need you like that they have those
skills. And I just want to say that that
is what I hear you say and describe.
And I just think that's incredible and wonderful and
speaks volumes that you don't have any open positions.
(46:41):
I don't know of any fire department, Police Department,
the EMT station that doesn't have at least one open position.
So kudos to you. From and our corrections we have
0 vacancies which is even more. We do.
Yeah, zero. We have.
We have actually have 5 over hires.
(47:03):
What? So yes.
OK, look at us. So I'm like, what?
That's awesome. Yeah.
It was. It's been a process when I took
over detentions. I don't want to prolong this,
but when I took over detentions in 2016 I had 26 vacancies.
Were the inmates running these? Pretty and and you know, not to
(47:25):
make anyone upset out in the world, but we had ICE detainees
back then. We don't any longer, but.
Yeah, but. Yeah.
So our our population was pushing 1000 every day, our jail
population. Got many jail.
That's wild. Well, thank you so much.
Yeah, thanks for having me and appreciate it.
I hope I made administrators around the world better, or at
(47:49):
least I hope they're if those that are listening will change
their ways so we don't get shamed on podcasts anymore.
I'm sure for that I hope you felt welcomed here to share your
voice. Absolutely, Absolutely.
And we can't thank you enough because this is exactly what we
need, right? We need people to step up in
your position to advocate, to say these things.
(48:10):
We need to learn from you guys. And yet you're one of the first
ones that was willing to do it. So thank you.
Thank you so much. I'm.
Exactly. We're going.
To let them go. But we are our famous line, and
that's when the call hits home. Jennifer and I are here for you,
so thank you. Thank you so much.
All right, bye, bye.
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