September 10, 2025 • 46 mins
Marian Crossgroves [00:00:00]:
Alcohol was my solution and I didn't use it all the time. And the opportunity wasn't there until later in life. But I knew how that made me feel. You know, that was my go to when things got bad. It was because I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin. There's two ways my life could have gone. I could have gone on to feel uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a productive member of society. And you know, it's not gotten a good job and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life.
Marian Crossgroves [00:00:26]:
But instead I decided to full bore go, you know what I mean? Like my. Because my parents instilled that in me. Right.
Jennifer [00:00:32]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
Ashlee [00:00:35]:
And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer. I'll hand it to you, I'm always the one being like special guest.
Jennifer [00:00:40]:
So you got this way to put me on the spot. So we have a special guest with us, Marian Crossgroves, who I'm excited to be here. And so Marian, just tell us a little bit about yourself.
Marian Crossgroves [00:00:49]:
I am an army veteran. Of course I was. I'm old. So when I was in the army, it was back before the war time, you know, the cold war era. But 10 years active duty army MP. I sat on with my kids for a little bit, but then I got into law enforcement. So I've been in law enforcement now for 22 years.
Ashlee [00:01:05]:
22 years.
Marian Crossgroves [00:01:06]:
Oh, makes me feel old. I'm young.
Ashlee [00:01:09]:
It's incredible. Honestly, you are. Marion's in much better shape than I will ever be. So we're just going to put that one out there. So thank you for coming on. Say one of the biggest things so obviously being a clinician and then working with first responders, something that we do see often. Jennifer, pipe up to is substance abuse. It's not something that we can kind of work like we can't say it doesn't happen.
Ashlee [00:01:30]:
It happens in this field all the time. And you just have an incredible story and an incredible way to kind of talk about that. Just gonna first ask you, like, what are your thoughts? Is it more prevalent than what people think? Substance abuse in first responder world?
Marian Crossgroves [00:01:42]:
So coping with alcohol or substances is extremely common and we want to stifle our emotions. We're supposed to be the one in control of the scene and therefore people's worst day of their life and take charge and solve the crime, support these people. So we can't show emotion when we're in the middle. And so when we, then when we leave that scene and we have to go home and be the mom or the dad and play with our kids and listen to this, our spouse talk about the dog thrown up in the carpet. That was the worst thing that's happened to them all week. We just can't handle that. You know what I mean? We're like, what do you mean? That's something. So we want a number.
Marian Crossgroves [00:02:20]:
So. And we. One of the, the ways to numb yourself is definitely with alcohol. It's legal, right?
Ashlee [00:02:25]:
It is legal.
Marian Crossgroves [00:02:27]:
It is.
Ashlee [00:02:27]:
And it's kind of pushed.
Marian Crossgroves [00:02:28]:
Oh, it's socially acceptable.
Ashlee [00:02:30]:
Yeah.
Marian Crossgroves [00:02:30]:
Yes. Yeah, yeah. You have that choir practice at the end of shift, you know, to say.
Ashlee [00:02:35]:
That it's that end of shift. Even our, our overnights, going to the bar. So, you know what I mean? Because that's, it's normalized. It's like, let's. We had a bad day, let's go grab a drink.
Marian Crossgroves [00:02:44]:
But is that always wrong?
Ashlee [00:02:45]:
No, I wouldn't say so.
Marian Crossgroves [00:02:46]:
No, I wouldn't either. It's when we let it monopolize our life. We need that numbing mechanism to, to be there is our mainstay. That's our best friend, you know, that's. That's the solution to the emotions. Our go to our ride or die. That's when it becomes a problem. But even then, some people who cope in that manner can stop or moderate given sufficient reason.
Marian Crossgroves [00:03:11]:
You know, health issues or the wife says, I've had it. The husband says, that's enough. The kids are looking at you like, really? But there's a line there. There's a line that if you cross it, those what seems like sufficient reasons to stop or moderate don't work, and you can't help yourself to continue to cope that way. That's when there's a huge problem.
Jennifer [00:03:32]:
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Alcohol was my solution and I didn't use it all the time.
I mean, the opportunity wasn't there until later in life, but I
knew how that made me feel. You know, that was my go to.
When things got bad, it was because I didn't feel
comfortable in my own skin. There's two ways my life could
have gone. I could have gone on to feel
uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a
productive member of society. And you know, it's not gotten a
(00:22):
good job and and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life.
But instead I decided to full bore go.
You know what I mean? Like my because my parents
instilled that in me, right? Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley, Jennifer, I'll
hand it to you. I'm always the one being like.
Special guest. So you got.
This a way to put me on the spot.
(00:42):
So we have a special guest with us, Marion Crossgroves, who I'm
excited to be here. And so, Marion, just tell us a
little bit about yourself. I am an Army veteran.
Of course I was. Yeah, I'm old.
So when I was in the Army, it was back before the war time,
you know, the Cold War era. But at 10 years active duty Army
MP, I sat on with my kids for a little bit but then I got into
(01:03):
SO, then in law enforcement now for 22 years. 22 years.
Makes me feel old, I'm young. It's incredible, honestly, you
are Marion's a much better shapethan I will ever be.
So we're just going to put that one out there.
So thank you for coming out today.
One of the biggest things, so obviously being a clinician and
then working with first responders, something that we do
see often, Jennifer Pipe up to is substance abuse.
(01:26):
It's not something that we can kind of work like we can't say
it doesn't happen. It happens in this field all the
time and you just have an incredible story and an
incredible way to kind of talk about that.
Going to 1st ask you like what are your thoughts?
Is it more prevalent than what people think?
Substance abuse in first responder world.
So coping with alcohol or substances is extremely common
(01:47):
in the we want to stifle our emotions.
We're supposed to be the one in control of the scene and they're
for people's worst day of their life and take charge and solve
the crime and support these people.
So we can't show emotion when we're in the middle.
And so when we then when we leave that scene and we have to
go home and be the mom or the dad and play with our kids and
(02:10):
listen to this our spouse talk about the dog thrown up in the
carpet. And that was the worst thing
that's happened to him all week.We just can't handle that.
You know what I mean? We're like, what do you mean?
That's something. So we want to numb or so, and we
one of the the ways to numb yourself is definitely with
alcohol. It's legal, right?
It is legal and it's kind of pushed.
Oh, it's socially acceptable, yes.
(02:31):
Yeah, you have that choir practice at the end shift, you
know. It's about to say that it's that
end of shift, even our our overnights going to the bar.
So you know what I mean? Because that's it's normalized.
It's like, let's we had a bad day, let's go grab a drink.
But is that always wrong? No, I wouldn't say so.
No, I wouldn't either. It's when we let it monopolize
our life. We needed that numbing mechanism
(02:53):
to to be there is our mainstay. That's our best friend.
You know, that's that's the solution to the emotions that
our go to our ride or die. That's when it becomes a
problem. But even then, some people who
cope in that manner can stop or moderate given sufficient
reason, you know, health issues or the wife says, I've had it
(03:14):
and the husband says that's enough.
The kids are looking at you. Like really?
But there's a line there. There's a line that if you cross
it, those what seems like sufficient reasons to stop or
moderate don't work. And you can't help yourself to
continue to cope that way. That's when there's a huge
problem. You know, I appreciate that and
I in the past life did work withsubstance abuse and it's
(03:38):
interesting in our diagnostic manual, which is what clinicians
use to diagnose. If you were to look up what
causes somebody alcoholic or an addict, if you look at that in
terms of our diagnostic, it is not a black and white diagnosis.
And so I think you're exactly right in saying like there is
the line and in a clinical standpoint, the line is if
(03:59):
you're having issues and relationships, because if you're
having issues with your job because of if you're having
issues and other interpersonal relationships, if you get legal
charges, you know, there has to kind of check all these in order
to be an alcoholic. And and that's actually
something that I would do with clients back in the day of
handing them kind of hey, this is what an outline.
(04:19):
So is somebody that comes home and has a glass of wine every
night after work is holic. There's some people that would
say absolutely yes, some people would say absolutely no.
And it's like, what is it impacting these areas, right?
And that is something that I think is so unique, right,
Because what might not impact somebody's vocational job for
(04:39):
other people's that would have an on their job.
And so it's navigate. Because you can have a clinical
diagnosis of these things. But for me, I had to analyze
myself internally and be honest myself.
That was the key point. My subconscious mind would want
to fool myself. Like, I don't have a drinking
problem. If you had the problems I had or
seen the things I did, you'd drink too, you know, just to
(05:01):
numb it away. But it's when you can't stop,
when those things start buildingup, all those things that you
talked about aren't sufficient enough to cause you to moderate
or to stop. That's when that's when you
really need to look at it and see.
Because a heavy hard drinker canlook just like an alcoholic, you
know? But to be an alcoholic, it's a
whole different ball game. Well, I appreciate that self
(05:22):
reflection piece that you know, it has to come with like looking
inward because you know, you could give people a piece of
paper and say like will you check all these boxes?
But if they're not looking, theycould give you all the reasons
that they're not, you know? And believe in themselves.
Believe it. Yes, they really do sometimes
believe it, right? Would you be willing to share a
(05:42):
little bit about what that self reflection look like for you?
What it to be on yourself look like?
Yes, and I have to say that those things that I had to self
reflect had to do with how I coped with hard times all of my
life. I mean that's really where it
started. I'm a compartmentalized person,
(06:03):
So when I go through things, I just want to put it in an
imaginary box on an imaginary shelf and shove it way back
there and pretend like it didn'thappen because yes, way back.
Because it really does. What I would say is does it
really matter today? Like right here today?
Does it matter that these thingshave happened to me?
But The thing is, I wasn't beinghonest with myself on all those
(06:23):
issues. And my hard things in life
started early. You know, they started really
early. I think those hard things as a
child made me the police officerI am today, you know, the person
that wanted to solve problems for people and, and not have
them go down the same roads thatI went down.
It made me a good cop. Yeah.
(06:44):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And, and the more I'm around police officers that have gone
through the journey of mental health Wellness, you know,
trying to get well and, and clean themselves out, have the
same attributes, you know, that things in their life weren't
always the the best. You know, we didn't grow up in
these perfect environments and then just wanted to be a police
officer. Yeah, it happens, but not very
often. And I think you make that great
(07:05):
point. I feel like we've been, we've
been talking today prior to recording, right?
And it's this notion of we oftenlike to say that our childhood
and things that happen don't really matter, right?
Like, right. Oh, not a big deal.
This is the present moment. I hear that all the time in my
office. I don't want to dig that up
again. Not so exactly, right.
Why would I? I'm fine now and I get it.
(07:26):
I do get that mindset. And it's really, really hard to
sometimes one just even facing and acknowledge that those
things happen in your childhood,right.
But then the do that work. Yeah, right.
But yet as a clinician, it's so important for us to say, well,
it dictates well, why you do what you do, right?
Like it can. And it can make us definitely
kind of view life in different ways.
(07:47):
And obviously, without that, we don't learn and we don't grow as
kids. That's just what it is.
We learn from our environment and the people that are raising
us right. So it's really, really hard to
not focus back in on that. I get a lot of shit, I'm going
to be honest, from my first responders when I go, when I try
to get to their like, you know, their past, they're always like,
why do clinicians do this? You know, they give me a hard
(08:08):
time. Such a cliche therapist, Ash.
I'm like, well, let's work on itand let's see.
And if you're trusting me, you know, after this, if it doesn't
make a difference, then you can come back and give me that shit.
But I think you make a really, really great point in that.
And a lot of our first responders do not love to dive
into that childhood now. Well, and I think, you know, we
were having this conversation last night when we have an
(08:30):
experience, I have a client who is able to say, Hey, I had you
happen in my childhood. And so there's like a an
openness about that, which is amazing.
You're recognizing, hey, there'ssome stuff that happened in my
childhood that was ideal, but that's it.
Like it's just a surface answer.And I love what you said about
like how I was coping from then.And so it's again, which is
(08:52):
great when people are open and honest.
But again, it's just like, how do those things impact how you
cope? How do those things impact how
you the world? You know, there's all these
things that can be really impactful for that and talking
about it doesn't build it to change those.
I really wish I could and yet I think it's powerful.
Look and say that is make sense on how to respond in that, you
(09:15):
know, compartmentalize a lot of people, including myself at
times, and there can be some healthy compartment in life.
There absolutely can be. I think sometimes therapy can be
quick to put stuff as good and bad instead of recognize like a
good and bad thing. How do you feel like you cope
differently? Now I can listen to outside
(09:35):
people telling me how I'm responding to something.
I can somebody says, well, you don't look right.
Are you OK? Or why did you respond in this
way or that That's not your norm.
And instead of getting defensiveand feeling judged, I can
actually then say, oh, wow, they're noticing something in
me. What am I feeling like the cause
of these things are and kind of self reflect in a manner that's
(09:58):
not so judgmental because that'sme.
I beat myself up all the time. I'm my own worst critic.
It's like I have a judge, a juryin my head that this that keeps
finding myself guilty and sentencing myself to all of this
negativity over and over and over.
You know, there's no reason to feel negative about stuff.
There's all we have to do is make slight changes in life.
(10:20):
And in fact, that's why I think we're here.
I think we're here to use these experiences that are catalyst
for growth, these rough spots tosend us in a slightly different
trajectory. I don't have to do a 180
immediately. I just have to do a little bit
different and then see how that works and a little bit different
after that until I can finally, I eventually add those up and it
is a 180, you know, I, I can seehow to fix these things in life
(10:45):
instead of trying to numb them or push them back on that shelf
or ignore them and just keep trudging forward.
You know, I appreciate that reflection terms of it when
often was I need to be 100, needto be 180, I just need to be 100
instead of recognizing what those what they really.
Do right. And sometimes people outside of
us can see them faster than we can see them, you know?
I think a lot of the time times,right?
(11:05):
And that's for any one of us at any given time.
Yeah, just because I'm a clinician does not mean that
does not happen to me too. Like people are able to identify
things. That's because it's harder to
see it. It's harder to self reflect for
sure. So when I I want to make sure
that our listeners here kind of get, I don't want to put you on
the spot with your background story, like the full story,
because that's up to you and what you want to share.
(11:26):
But when did you or how long didyou go before you recognize
like, hey, I might need to make some changes.
I might need to decades. Decades, OK, before I realized I
needed a change. And I don't mind telling some of
my background story. And here's the thing, I had a
very significant childhood trauma.
So when I had great parents, I mean, they raised this good.
(11:50):
My mom was my moral compass. She stayed home and she made
sure that we did things right inlife, you know, and they made us
happy and did all the good things.
But when I was seven, I was brutally attacked by a random
person. And I, I'm a survivor of that.
But when I went to the hospital and I had surgery, I had a head
injury and I had been sexually assaulted.
(12:11):
And I tried to tell my mom all these things.
My mom told me I was safe. My mom told me that it was going
to be OK, that everything was fine.
And because of the head trauma she who knows at 7 how I even
explained that. But she said due to the head
trauma I was having these nightmares and that it was all
OK. And my mom did the best she
(12:31):
could at that moment. You know, whether she knew it or
didn't know it or I wasn't making any sense.
My mom kept me safe and protected.
But because I was not heard, I was alone with that hurt because
I had no outlet for it. I kept that inside and it
consequently made me feel like Ididn't fit in anywhere.
(12:53):
I felt like if I was lying to myself that this event occurred
because there was a story, you know what I mean?
That I fell in the cement and hurt my head and all these
things. If that was true and not what I
was thinking it was, and then what kind of person am I?
You know, I don't deserve this family.
I don't deserve to have this life.
I felt like I didn't fit in anywhere and I was alone with my
(13:15):
pain. I mean, that was it.
And it was very awkward and thatwent on for years of me feeling
this way even though I was safe and protected with this
beautiful family. Right, right.
And it went on for years. And the, the solution to that,
that solution that took that, that weirdness away was alcohol.
I remember being a young teen and we all got together at my,
(13:35):
my parents' house, lake house, and they were all, you know,
it's somebody else's. And so we all got together.
We were mixing stuff in the, from the liquor cabinet and
everybody take a little swig andgo, oh, you know, that was, that
was crazy. I drank it like a fish.
I drank it until I was throwing up, passed out on the floor with
the room spinning. But the whole time that I was
drinking, that thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm comfortable in my own
(13:57):
skin. Yeah, for the first time ever, I
feel like I'm OK. And I'm not saying I was an
alcoholic at that point. At that point, alcohol was my
solution. And I didn't use it all the
time. I mean, the opportunity wasn't
there until later in life. But I knew how that made me
feel. You know, that was my go to.
When things got bad, it was because I didn't feel
comfortable in my own skin. There's two ways my life could
(14:20):
have gone. I could have gone on to feel
uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a
productive member of society. And you know, it's not gotten a
good job and and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life.
But instead I decided to full bore go.
You know what I mean? Like my because my parents
instilled that in me, right. You're a success in life of what
you make of it. So you need to do this thing,
(14:42):
you know, And so that drive for success was on based on what
they gave me, but again, never feeling like I deserved it.
You know, what I think is reallycrucial to to point out here is
how those negative thoughts towards yourself from an event
that you could not control manifested.
I don't think people take enoughtime to stop to realize that
when we go through something as traumatic as that, how we turn
(15:05):
inward, right? Like, we just hear these
traumatic events and from the outside as I think we all make
our own judgments or what have you.
But how that manifested for you,how you turn that inward so much
and you're like, I don't even want to be in my own skin.
Right. And not enough people stop to
realize that this is what happens.
Yeah, right. This is what leads because I
think we also, you are extremelyresilient and the path you took
(15:28):
was incredible. But we do see so many people
take that other path. But how quickly when all you're
feeding yourself are these negative thoughts like that?
Yeah, right. And I think that's important,
especially because we have a lotof first responders that listen
to this. If it's not them, the people you
work with in your communities, Right.
Like being aware of that. I thought you just put that so
perfect perfectly. I couldn't.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need to.Well, I learn from you every
(15:49):
time I see you. But yeah, I'm like I, I'm like I
the way you just said that. I'm like how beautifully said
that because it's hard, it's hard to articulate that how that
can manifest for somebody. And it doesn't have to be a
serious event like what happenedto me being alone with your pain
period as a child. Because think about it, you're
born with a clean slate, aren't you?
(16:10):
Like you don't have all these things.
Now I'm explaining this in a copterminology.
OK y'all we love. They're all going to love it.
They're probably like, thank goodness, finally.
You mental health professionals and you're breaking down to the
brain, but I think of the brain like a computer system, OK, so
it uses past experience to predict what I'm going to do in
the current moment to keep me safe.
(16:31):
Like the brain keeps me safe. So my egoic brain puts all these
boundaries on it like I'm going to keep people at arm's length
or I'm going to judge them before they judge me.
I'm going to do all these thingsto keep myself safe from these
events that we're along with as a child.
And it could be something small,it could be a divorce.
I say small. These aren't small, but a
divorce or having somebody in your family pass away as a young
(16:54):
child, all these things that were alone with our hurt and we
do feel like we can't share withanybody can cause the same thing
that happened to me. And if I never share those
things, that's when I have to find an outside source to quell
them. And if it's substances, it's a
long road, like it's a long hardRd. especially when you feel
like you have your life on track.
(17:14):
I, I didn't fall into that downtrodden form.
I was going, I was, I personallywas going to make a success out
of my life, you know, like, but here's I gave 110% of
everything. But the problem with that is
there's no such thing as 110%, right?
100% is a full circle. Like that's it.
Like that's the whole thing. But because I, I wanted to give
(17:35):
110%, anything I did to myself was nothing like I was in the
Army. So if I could Max my PT test, I
would fit in, you know, but I could have extended scale Max,
you know, I could have done moresit ups.
So anything I did, if I, I got on a SRT team in the Army, the
first female ever to do that. And I didn't do it because I was
a female. I just, you know, like you, I
(17:56):
could do this. And for yeah, for once, I would
fit in with the rest of the soldiers.
I would be a soldier. But instead it wasn't good
enough. You know what I mean?
Like I, I felt like I could havedone something better.
The guys outran me or did this this shot better than me or
whatever. But the whole time I'm I got on
the team, you know, I did it. I, I never still felt like I fit
in until I would go with the guys and have a couple drinks
(18:19):
and then I would be one of them.You know, to me, that's what
that warm blanket was, but I didn't recognize that.
It wasn't like it was a go to a meeting, but it felt like this.
The problem with coping with alcohol for such a long period
of time is it's actually a bodily dysfunction.
I damaged my liver and pancreas to the point where it didn't get
rid of the byproducts like normal people.
Normal people take a drink and through breath or urine or
(18:42):
whatever, they they get rid of these extra.
There are chemicals in there where mine retain those and it
causes a craving, A craving for more alcohol.
And so my true intention is to go out with the guys and drink a
beer, you know, after work or whatever one go home to my
family, you know, and do what I'm supposed to do.
But when I drink that one, that craving builds And next thing
(19:04):
you know, I'm doing two or threeor drinking with them and then
going home and drinking six more.
And that took, like I said, decades to build up to that
point, But that's where I was itthat that craving for my alcohol
is, is not something that you can see.
So if I'm allergic to strawberries, I might break out
in a rash when I eat strawberries.
So you think, oh man, see the rash, but a craving, No one told
(19:25):
me that when I was young. And so I didn't recognize it,
you know, and then you talk about that, the brain part of
it, I built a neural bypass in my brain to solve all solutions
with alcohol. So if I was happy, I wanted to,
I didn't want to get too happy, you know, out of control.
So I would numb it. I would want to numb it with
alcohol. That'd be my immediate thought.
If I was celebrating something, I wanted to do it with alcohol.
(19:48):
If I was sad about something, I wanted to numb it with alcohol.
So these neuro bypasses that that we build with these
solutions are like learning how to ride a bike, right?
So when you first get on a bike,you can't pedal, you fall over,
but you eventually learn how to do that and you build a neural
bypass in your brain how to ridea bike.
So if you haven't ridden a bike in 10 years, can't you just get
on it and ride it? Yes, you can.
(20:09):
I learned that in the in Berlin of all places.
That neural bypass never goes away, neither is the alcohol 1.
So for me wanting to cope with everything with alcohol, I'm to
get out of that mindset. I need to build different.
I need to learn how to use the emotions properly as a guidance
rather than trying to stuff theminto a box and put them on
(20:31):
itself, you know? And again, who, unless you're
around clinicians or go to therapy, who heard about these
neural bypasses, things, you know, but your brain due to
neuroplasticity can change, you know, it molds into these new
ways to cope with things. But that original 1 doesn't go
away, you know? So I have to do things to be
(20:52):
able to cope with this in a different way.
Yeah, I'm smiling so big becausewhen I present, I always talk
about that process, right, neuroplasticity.
And my men and women are always like, here she goes again with
that word, with that word. But we can do it.
Later. I'm just trying to so I'm
smiling 'cause I guarantee they're gonna listen to listen.
(21:12):
That's Ashley playing out well. And I've said the younger and I
think childhood and adolescent to try things limit might
include alcohol and I do think culture still a lot of around
agriculture utilize that. So those are the norms as well
as born slate. And when we're little and things
happened, we don't have the whole development.
(21:34):
No, it's not my fault or no, I can share how to even have the
words to express something that's happened to us.
And so so it can really be just like this layered thing that
happens. Yeah.
And I I don't disagree with me here, but I do think though work
to find different coping skills and I think substances, alcohol,
(21:55):
it is a quick second time and that's why we utilize and I
think you're right. Like I I don't think nobody's
had a bad day and they go have adrink and they're an alcoholic.
But at the same time there is this line that sometime can
cross and what is happening withour brain when our happy?
Because me feeling like I never fit in it, it continues on and I
(22:17):
have not talked to a first responder that doesn't say the
same thing I do Like so when we show up to the child that
drowned in a pool, you know, and, and our common sense brain
tells us that child's been in there for a while.
Even though I pull that child out and I and I do life saving
measures and they don't make it.I I know in my rational brain
that that was not my fault. You know what I mean?
(22:39):
Like I didn't leave him in the pool.
It wasn't the way I did CPR. My subconscious mind says what
mother let's a child drowned in a pool.
When I say it out loud, it sounds stupid, you know, like,
no, you didn't do that. You you did all the things
you're supposed to do, but that's subconscious mind those
things that we carry around thatdon't make any sense, but they
(23:01):
just lurk in the back of your brain are powerful.
We're supposed to be above the rest of society because we
enforce the law. We're supposed to adhere to the
law perfectly. Kind of it's a perfect I fight
on the road and look at my speedometer thinking, oh gosh, I
got a slow, let alone misusing alcohol, having that one or two
drinks to take the edge off withthe guys by yourself, whatever
(23:23):
is fine. But when we overshoot that, then
that guilt and you know, I'm supposed to be better than this.
I'm not supposed to fall down the stairs or have a fight with
my spouse or whatever the case may be.
That was maybe brought on by that misuse of alcohol that one
time. So that guilt, shame and remorse
is a vicious cycle, right? You know.
Which that we can do as humans alot resistance and a lot of
(23:45):
pushback and a lot of hiding. Yes is such a yes.
And if there is this pressure, yeah, what are we really having
a really work? And can't you, I know you guys
both have your parents were in law enforcement all your life.
Yet your dad or mom for some people come home and they're
acting kind of distant or grouchy or whatever.
It's hard for kids not to internalize that, you know, and,
(24:07):
and, and make it about themselves and be alone with
their hurt too, you know, but the whole time, actually your,
your dad's, that we're law enforcement, we're trying to
protect you and not, not tellingyou about those critical
incidents. 100% I always talk about, you know, there was only
two times, I mean, he was what 29 years and there was only two
times he came home, maybe even one that was really apparent to
(24:30):
me where he hugged me and was like, don't ever take our, our
fighting or something as an extreme.
And then I found out later what had happened and, and things
like that. But what my dad was notorious
for like coming home and like watching TV, but zoning out
completely. So I I'd be like, dad, dad, dad
and tell him my whole life story.
And he would be like, uh huh. But not even look my way, right?
(24:50):
Like, and I don't think he knew he was doing it, but that was
just his way of like, well, I'm with you guys.
Yeah, right. Like I'm hanging out.
We're watching TV, right? We're doing this and that.
But yet he was disengaged. Like, I'm sure he's going to
listen to this and be like, what?
But he was, you know, and I feellike it is hard as a kid
sometimes to be like, OK, is that me?
He just doesn't want to listen to me talk.
(25:12):
But because when as a kid you don't know any better, so you do
internalize that very quickly, very, very quick.
So I love that you hit on that as.
Well, and then as the as the lawenforcement person, then you
feel guilty. Then you want to make it for it,
maybe by being too nice and giving presents and doing all
the things you know, because youweren't home enough or you were
distracted, or the opposite, pulling away and there's a
(25:32):
wedge, you know. Absolutely.
I do hear that a lot from our our children of first
responders. So that's something that's super
important as well. And it's not only, I guess I
want to also note here, because we're talking right now, right?
Like incredible powerful story about alcohol, but experiences
in my own, like family life and things like that.
Like it's not only alcohol. Like I feel like pain medicines
(25:55):
that are given right by doctors when our first responders get
injured and all these things they develop, right?
So we have all this trauma and we have all the, we may not be
well, but then we have somethinglike that transpire and man,
life just spirals out of controlfast sometimes, right?
You don't have a way to catch it, right?
And so then we're looking at things a little bit differently.
And then I want to note, yeah, because I think a lot of our
(26:15):
listeners, while they're going to absolutely relate because
alcohol is I think our number one in terms of first responders
and, and the normalcy around it.But like, there's also so many
other things that I've come across while working with first
responders that it's just like this coping mechanism.
If I can find it, I'm going to do it.
Yeah, and it could, it could be anything.
You know, it's not just alcohol and substance addiction, right?
(26:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's a huge one. Huge one.
And if people hide it so you don't, it's not in your face.
So you think you're the only onespending money you don't have?
Spending money? Oh.
Yes, that's a big one, yes. And then you feel like you have
to work all these overtime jobs to make up for the loss of
income that you're spending or that you get used to living in
this house. It's above your means or driving
(26:59):
these cars that you can't afford.
And but you ever notice when youget one of those things like, I
want that car, I want that car and you get it.
And then not even three days later, it feels normal again.
So you're seeking, you're it's adopamine hit that you're just
constantly going after that never stops.
And if that's what alcohol is, you know, like that's, that's
what it is. You just keep seeking and
(27:19):
seeking and seeking. And what used to work to make me
feel numb or feel like I fit in all of a sudden is this grand
giant thing where it used to just be a couple drinks.
You know, it just escalates evenrealize.
It is hard and I see that often with clients.
The runway run, you know what wewere using to get that plane off
(27:39):
the ground? That gets shorter and like
you're having to escalate and escalate more until again, it
feels so adequate. And is alcohol spiraled in my
life, They kind of did it incrementally.
So conditions in my life got worse and worse on a slow basis.
So think of an elevator going down slowly.
So conditions in my life would get worse.
(28:01):
Like I'd never, I would never drink in the morning.
Are you kidding me? Like that's, that's an
alcoholic. They got to get up and drink.
Oh, but I'm off and I'm watchingFood Network and they drink
mimosis in the morning. So why?
Can't I suppose that? What's your name?
Hoda. Hoda.
Hoda. Good Morning, America.
Campaign. Popping the champagne all the
(28:22):
time. Yeah.
So what's wrong with that? So that's incrementally lowering
my standards. I could wrap my mind around
those things. It's when alcohol totally took
over my life and that elevator dropped like it was broken, like
the cable broke and dropped to the basement all at once.
That's when I realized that I had a problem, but all these
other things kept happening. It's like the universe kept
(28:43):
trying to show me that I was having this problem, and the
problems would escalate little by little.
Thankfully, it wasn't some legalissues, or I didn't drink and
drive and crash or get a DUI, but it was other areas of my
life that slippery slope came in.
You know, here I am, an ethical,moral person, but I start making
excuses at work about things or why something happened.
(29:06):
Excuses of lies, little white lies, I used to call them
improvements on the truth. I was married and I didn't want
to tell my spouse how much moneywe were spending.
And so I would try to hide the checkbook even though I was we
were spending it together. I would make these improvements
on the truth in all aspects of my life.
How to discipline the kids, how much, Like I said, the finances.
But it also came with my alcohol.
(29:28):
So we drink a couple beers everynight and that would be fine.
But then that craving would kickoff in myself and I'd go to
clean the kitchen and slam a beer and shove that beer can to
the bottom of the trash can. Or go out to the garage and get
a couple warm ones out of the case and show them in the back
of the ones in the refrigerator so that he wouldn't notice they
were missing. Those improvements on the truth,
which were lies, caused a huge wedge between me and my spouse
(29:51):
and we wound up getting divorced.
And it was all alcoholism, the whole thing.
And I crept into all areas of mylife.
I wasn't showing up to work drunk, but I would get home and
I would drink more and more. I would.
I had an office job eventually and I would move my hours up so
that I could get home before thekids got home.
I told myself to give myself a mental break, but really it was
(30:13):
to get that ease and comfort of that first drink before I got
there, so I could breathe again before the kids walked in the
door. But then I would, I switched to
hard alcohol easier to, I would say I would, I could drink it a
little bit faster and it feel better for the evening and not
have to drink so much because those beer cans, who makes those
little tiny cans? I think to myself, they were
(30:36):
just everywhere. And so I switched to hard
alcohol to find myself drinking more and more.
It wasn't less and less like I thought it was going to do to
the point where I would be at home and I was not a barfly.
So I must not be an alcohol. Like I wasn't homeless under the
bridge. I was at home with my kids doing
homeless homework, watching a little TV and making dinner.
(30:56):
I would now this didn't happen every day, but I would, we would
do our homework and we'd be sitting in the living room and I
think, you know, it's almost time to make dinner.
Next commercial break. That's what I'll go do to look
up what felt like 1 commercial breakaway and see The Dirty
dishes in this thing and dinner.I made dinner.
We ate already. Like I, I must have a brain
tumor. I mean, I 1000% thought that I
(31:17):
had a brain tumor and something was wrong with me, but I didn't
dare go to the doctor, you know,But subconsciously I probably
knew that it was the alcohol is the thing.
But consciously I could have passed a lie detector test to
say I didn't have a problem, youknow?
Yeah. It just crept in that much and
those reasoning skills were gone.
I was, I was lying to myself because I was divorced by this
time. I mean, there was there's there
(31:39):
was nobody to lie to but me, right.
Like it made no sense. None.
Well, and I. Appreciate that ability to say
like wasn't homeless underneath a bridge.
Like then there is high functioning and alcoholism still
happening. People are still showing up for
jobs and cooking dinner and things like that.
And yet, you know, we can be in the cycle of addiction and like
you said, hiding it. It is.
(32:00):
What do you feel like was so helpful for you in terms of that
ability to be honest with yourself or?
I had an incident work that I needed in my mind to cover up.
I had by this time it was like Ididn't even want to pay my
bills. Like I had money in the bank,
but I was waiting until the electricity was about to be
turned off to, to pay it or looking out the window every day
(32:20):
at the car I had with it had a loan on it like most people do,
but but not paying it and thinking any day they're going
to repossess it. But it might be easier not to,
you know, just to, to chill out,not have to worry about that
stuff. It wasn't like I intentionally
let my truck get repossessed, but it it's like I put that on a
shelf with all those critical incidents from work with those,
you know, that the dead kids andthe, the people and wrecks and
(32:42):
the death and the domestics. I just put them on this
imaginary shelf and shoved them back on down there along with my
childhoods. Just didn't want to deal with
it. Well, I had by this point let my
truck get repossessed. Like why?
I was driving my work car to andfrom work.
I'd stop at the grocery store. Who needs to go out anyway?
It was an excuse to stay home and drink is what it was.
(33:03):
You know, I didn't need to go out and take the kids places.
We were fine. I had a backyard playground and
we did all the things where we lived.
So who cares? I didn't want work to realize
that. I didn't have that enough
cognizance of my mind to think if they knew that I didn't have
my own car that they would be issued.
So I lied about something to cover that up and went on with
my life when I told myself, you know, this might be a little
(33:25):
much like I really need to chillout like I used to when I was in
the Army. I could go to the field for a
month or when I was pregnant, I drink for a year and not worry
about it. I need to chill out a little bit
with the alcohol is what I told myself because it's a daily
thing now. So I, I, I told that white lie
or improvement on the truth at work to cover up what was going
on at home, to tell myself to chill out, to go home and drink
(33:47):
just like I had for months if not years before.
Without a thought in my mind. I went home and drank without
even thinking about chilling out.
Didn't dawn on me until I passedout in my chair right that
night. Woke up the next morning, got
put my uniform on, went into work.
I was standing there at the photocopier and I thought to
myself, oh Marian, you drink that.
You promised yourself you weren't going to do that.
(34:09):
I knew then there was a problem.I knew that lie that I told at
work hit me like a ton of bricks.
In fact, that whole shelf of imaginary things, all those
things, all those traumas that Iwas helpless, hopeless, and not
good enough about that were on that shelf came crashing down on
my head and I knew I had a problem.
I knew I wanted to drink that moment to cover that up.
(34:29):
Like there was no that that was my only solution and that was a
good thing. That's what we call a bottom,
right? Like that's it.
I felt like I was in quicksand and I was sinking and it was as
hard as I was trying to pull outof it.
There was number pulling out andI knew that I couldn't solve it
myself. But it takes that pain, right?
That pain that's not going away.My solution wasn't working
(34:52):
anymore. You know, I couldn't drink it
away like it was still there. And so I said I needed help.
I went to a 30 day treatment center.
That's hard to do as a first responder.
You know, you see, you hear all these people you, you deal with
on the street that are, are going to treatment, you know,
and here it's me, all these people that I've judged for all
(35:13):
these years and, you know, rolled my eyes when I had to go
there five times. I'm going to where they go.
But I'm telling you, I needed that.
I needed that 30 days to breathe.
Yeah, yes, absolutely. To show me that I can survive
this without alcohol, that I, that I'm not the only one that
goes through this. It affects everybody from Park
Ave. To Park Bench like I was in
(35:35):
there with doctors and nurses and judges and all kinds of
people and homeless people and work and laborers and in every
walk of life. It does discriminate it.
Doesn't. No, not at all.
So I conceded in my innermost self that I had a problem, went
there and I could breathe. The The next step was though, I
had to leave there, just hide here forever like this is
(36:00):
working for me. Can I just say, But no, I had to
get back to it. I had to, I had to leave there
and figure out what that even meant.
I had a friend pick me up. I went to a treatment center a
couple hours from her. She picked me up and I thought
she was bringing me home and I didn't know how to navigate this
thing. And she didn't bring me home.
She brought me to the A a hall in my hometown where I worked,
(36:24):
where I police, where I had arrested people for the same
problem I had. Yeah, you know, and I I was
sitting in the truck and I was like, I have to get out.
She goes, oh, perfect time for meeting.
Yes, you need to go in there right now.
And I was like, do that. But here's the thing.
I knew I'm glad she did it that way.
I'm glad she didn't warn me. I'm glad she just did it because
if I had not done that, what where would I find a solution
(36:46):
once I got home? No, AAA is not for everybody.
There's a million ways to get sober.
But for me, I can't think of anyother way to do.
Yeah, I had a problem with organized religion.
I thought religion was for weak people.
My parents told me how to make asuccess out of my life.
I grew up and thinking that God was wrathful and punished us,
and we were going to hell if we sinned or weren't good enough.
(37:09):
So to me, I believed that there was something out there that was
in charge of all things in the universe, but it wasn't for me.
So I had to set that off to the side and I had to figure out
what that looked like in my world and a did it for me.
That's what I needed to do. Walking into that room, though,
as a police officer of at that time over 10 years was probably
(37:31):
the hardest, one of the hardest things I've ever met.
I walked in there and I bawled the first three meetings I went
to and I sat in the corner and Ijust, but I heard my I heard my
exact emotional emotions that surrounded my life, life coming
from these people. It wasn't the details, you know,
it was, it was the the similarities in there and, and
(37:54):
and how we handle life. And I listen to their solution
and their solution was this twelve set program.
You know, these people that I had arrested or dealt with over
and over loved me until I could love myself because they were in
there for a reason. Court papers are not.
They were in they could forge their own court papers.
They can do that. They were in there to find a
solution and was the same solution provided to me and I, I
(38:16):
couldn't, I couldn't have asked for a better way to do it.
You know it definitely it without a doubt.
It was a foundation of of my sobriety.
That's so beautiful to powerful.Well, and can.
You talk a little bit about how you use.
That thing helps you so much. So I actually got out of law
enforcement. I, I had to leave.
I mean, I, I had told that lie. You can't have a police officer
(38:37):
on your staff that has lied about something.
Can't go to court then. And, you know, like, and, and,
and it'd be expected to tell thetruth.
So I moved on. I was just in mainstream.
I had to learn how to take all those things that I things that
I didn't life, that I didn't live up to my own standards and
clean them up. So I thought of myself like a
trash can, right? I had to take that trash can of
(39:00):
my life, of all the gross stuff that's in there and I had to
dump it out. I didn't throw it away.
I took all that trash and I withthe help of a sponsor and the 12
step program, I got to dump thatstuff out, take a scrub brush,
not only clean up that trash, but clean the inside of that
can, which is me. And then take all that cleaned
up trash and put it back in me. Because we can't get rid of the
(39:20):
things we did in life, but we can clean them up and I can make
amends and try to fix things. I, it's not apologies, it's how
can I fix, how can I fix how I wronged you?
What can I do to make this better?
Actionable things that helped meclean up that trash help me to
use my past experience to help somebody else figure out that
(39:41):
they've had the same issue and how they can clean up their mess
of their life and use it to the good to help others.
I had to figure out that I am not in charge of my life.
I am the one that can do the next right thing over and over,
but the outcomes come up to something greater than me and
that's where that religious piece gets muddied in there.
I had to put religion to the side and and just say there's
(40:01):
something out here bigger than me that is running the universe.
It's no different than going to court, right?
I put a case together. I do my best job over and over
to put that case together. It's not up to me what the jury
does or what the judge does. I have to let go of that control
of the outcomes. I'm not in the outcome business.
Anymore and know that there's a bigger picture.
Why did these things happen to me?
Why did that event as a child happen to me?
(40:23):
So I could be mad at God or whatever you want to call that
thing that runs the universe. But really, why would I don't
need to be mad at God? These are things, I think those
catalysts in life that help us move that little trajectory over
are the things that make it good, right?
I had this thing happen to me and I felt like I wasn't good
(40:44):
enough for my mother. To be honest with you.
That's really it wasn't the assault.
That's why I say it doesn't matter what happened to you.
I felt like I didn't live up to my mother's standards.
You know, like if I believe thatthis bad thing happened to me
and she does it, what kind of a child lies about that?
In my mind, that's what made me not feel like I fit in.
And so I had to realize that that wasn't true.
My mom had her own points of view.
I have my own points of view. I just need to figure out those
(41:08):
things in life. And maybe that's what that event
was supposed to do for me so I can figure these things out in
life because I don't regret thathappening to me now.
Like I could have lived in as a victim or in bitterness forever
about that. But instead I chose to use that
as a springboard to bring me to where I am in life to help other
people realize that they don't have to live in victim mentality
(41:28):
either. And that's how I can police now.
I love it. I don't have to sit there, judge
somebody like, why are you doingthis over and over?
Just give them that little bit of hope that those things can
show them the proper way to live, which is additional love
of everything. I'm never going to be perfect at
that is the thing. So I can unconditionally love
maybe my kids, but do we like I do unconditionally love my kids,
(41:50):
but I put expectations on them, you know, do good or I might be
mad, or I'm not going to give you your allowance or I'm going
to take your cell phone away. That's life, right?
But that is not what my higher power has for me.
You know, my higher power loves me unconditionally.
It's myself, Will that puts all that judgement on myself of
these things. And that's what I had to learn.
I'm in control of my emotions and what surrounds them and how
(42:13):
I choose to apply them. I can be sad or angry, but then
how can I balance that out with the wisdom to unconditionally
love it anyway? I don't love the fact that I was
assaulted as a child, but I haveto try.
I have to try to see the good that came out of that, you know?
And that's, to me, the essence of life.
Well, also, I think that's the essence, you know, and like you
(42:35):
said, to finally have to sit in all things that we, yeah, you
know, and that that's your work,you know, that's the work
they've done. And I think it's beautiful how
you, it's such a fire in you that you want to give to others
as well. You wanted to catch some others
experience. I do and their struggles.
Not only the people that maybe that I deal with on the street,
but also in the first responder community, because we're, we're
(42:57):
on the same boat. We, we want to put on this
armor, you know what I mean? Like, we're this rough, tough
thing and nothing to breakthrough my armor, but that
armor's rusty. It needs to be cleaned up.
You know, we need to know when take that armor off and be
vulnerable and, and feel the emotions versus having to wear
it work. Yeah.
To survive those events. And never take it off.
(43:17):
I know, never take it off. So how do you feed yourself?
How do you right take care of yourself when you're walking
around in this rusty armor? Well, I think that that's Ashley
and IA little bit of our compassion here and our love and
our work with the podcast is like, how is it when there's
somebody at the dinner table with armor, you know, like how
does that impact? You know, how do they function
(43:39):
or not? And of course, our goal is for
that, pick that armor off and bethere with.
It is. If there was to, I don't want to
because we could keep you for 20years for sure, because your
story is so powerful. And I, I really can't wait for
people to hear this episode. And if there is somebody right
now who is listening and is struggling in any kind, you know
what I mean? Like is there any words of
advice that you would want to give to somebody?
(44:02):
I would say if you are struggling, especially with
substance abuse, reach out. You're somebody else's story,
not just mine. There's online first responder
meetings that you can go and listen to everybody's story and
it if you can connect or resonate with what they're
saying, start investigating thatwith yourself, with somebody
who's been through it because that's the key.
(44:23):
It almost seems like judgement when it comes from the outside
when people are pointing things out to you.
But if you can find someone who's been through the fire
already that you can relate to and identify with, start
listening to them and see, because it's all self reflection
like you guys. Meanwhile, therapy is needed.
Therapy is so needed to for me to realize these things to
(44:44):
myself. But sometimes we feel judged
when we go in there. You need a combination of both.
Somebody who's been through it themselves along with you,
mental health professionals thatcan point out these subconscious
mind things. Because that's the key too, is
to just to be able to see what the problem is.
And you guys have all the training for that.
I do think that's a beautiful ofthe 12 steps is how you give
back to that help somebody just especially right.
(45:07):
And it's such a safe zone because no one is gonna leave
there and talk about what you just shared or what you've been
through. We've all been.
Yeah, we have. Anything else that would be to
share before we get wrap up the?We don't like to admit fear.
I'm not afraid of anything. I'll run into a, I'll run into
the gunfire. But fear is healthy.
It's a healthy emotion to recognize but transcend because
(45:29):
that's what we do, right? We have fear when there's
gunshots, we just run through itanyway.
You're right. And so do that with your
personal life. Get through those things, yes.
It doesn't just apply to work. Go through it, feel the pain,
feel the emotions and. And get to the side.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
(45:50):
Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
I think that, again, I know there's always these episodes
where I'm like, uh oh, we're going to get hounded because
people are going to want you now.
A lot. So they're going to break.
Please reach out to. Marion back on and we can share
some of that information if you're open to a divorce and we
can post it on our our socials and things like that as well.
Because I don't know, I know this is substance abuse was
(46:11):
something that we we knew we needed to start covering on this
podcast. But to be honest, like I've
learned, I learned so much from you and I and I know Jennifer
has. And so we were both like, well,
it has to come from Mary, has tocome from Mary and it can't come
from us. You know what I mean?
And so honestly, to have you here to to listen, I get I can
listen all day and continue to learn and just I'm just so
(46:33):
thankful. So, well, thank you for having
me. Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer, anything you want to wrap up with?
I know. All right, Well, you guys know
the routine that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are
here for you and we can't wait for the next episode.
Alcohol was my solution and I didn't use it all the time.
I mean, the opportunity wasn't there until later in life, but I
knew how that made me feel. You know, that was my go to.
When things got bad, it was because I didn't feel
comfortable in my own skin. There's two ways my life could
have gone. I could have gone on to feel
uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a
productive member of society. And you know, it's not gotten a
(00:22):
good job and and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life.
But instead I decided to full bore go.
You know what I mean? Like my because my parents
instilled that in me, right? Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley, Jennifer, I'll
hand it to you. I'm always the one being like.
Special guest. So you got.
This a way to put me on the spot.
(00:42):
So we have a special guest with us, Marion Crossgroves, who I'm
excited to be here. And so, Marion, just tell us a
little bit about yourself. I am an Army veteran.
Of course I was. Yeah, I'm old.
So when I was in the Army, it was back before the war time,
you know, the Cold War era. But at 10 years active duty Army
MP, I sat on with my kids for a little bit but then I got into
(01:03):
SO, then in law enforcement now for 22 years. 22 years.
Makes me feel old, I'm young. It's incredible, honestly, you
are Marion's a much better shapethan I will ever be.
So we're just going to put that one out there.
So thank you for coming out today.
One of the biggest things, so obviously being a clinician and
then working with first responders, something that we do
see often, Jennifer Pipe up to is substance abuse.
(01:26):
It's not something that we can kind of work like we can't say
it doesn't happen. It happens in this field all the
time and you just have an incredible story and an
incredible way to kind of talk about that.
Going to 1st ask you like what are your thoughts?
Is it more prevalent than what people think?
Substance abuse in first responder world.
So coping with alcohol or substances is extremely common
(01:47):
in the we want to stifle our emotions.
We're supposed to be the one in control of the scene and they're
for people's worst day of their life and take charge and solve
the crime and support these people.
So we can't show emotion when we're in the middle.
And so when we then when we leave that scene and we have to
go home and be the mom or the dad and play with our kids and
(02:10):
listen to this our spouse talk about the dog thrown up in the
carpet. And that was the worst thing
that's happened to him all week.We just can't handle that.
You know what I mean? We're like, what do you mean?
That's something. So we want to numb or so, and we
one of the the ways to numb yourself is definitely with
alcohol. It's legal, right?
It is legal and it's kind of pushed.
Oh, it's socially acceptable, yes.
(02:31):
Yeah, you have that choir practice at the end shift, you
know. It's about to say that it's that
end of shift, even our our overnights going to the bar.
So you know what I mean? Because that's it's normalized.
It's like, let's we had a bad day, let's go grab a drink.
But is that always wrong? No, I wouldn't say so.
No, I wouldn't either. It's when we let it monopolize
our life. We needed that numbing mechanism
(02:53):
to to be there is our mainstay. That's our best friend.
You know, that's that's the solution to the emotions that
our go to our ride or die. That's when it becomes a
problem. But even then, some people who
cope in that manner can stop or moderate given sufficient
reason, you know, health issues or the wife says, I've had it
(03:14):
and the husband says that's enough.
The kids are looking at you. Like really?
But there's a line there. There's a line that if you cross
it, those what seems like sufficient reasons to stop or
moderate don't work. And you can't help yourself to
continue to cope that way. That's when there's a huge
problem. You know, I appreciate that and
I in the past life did work withsubstance abuse and it's
(03:38):
interesting in our diagnostic manual, which is what clinicians
use to diagnose. If you were to look up what
causes somebody alcoholic or an addict, if you look at that in
terms of our diagnostic, it is not a black and white diagnosis.
And so I think you're exactly right in saying like there is
the line and in a clinical standpoint, the line is if
(03:59):
you're having issues and relationships, because if you're
having issues with your job because of if you're having
issues and other interpersonal relationships, if you get legal
charges, you know, there has to kind of check all these in order
to be an alcoholic. And and that's actually
something that I would do with clients back in the day of
handing them kind of hey, this is what an outline.
(04:19):
So is somebody that comes home and has a glass of wine every
night after work is holic. There's some people that would
say absolutely yes, some people would say absolutely no.
And it's like, what is it impacting these areas, right?
And that is something that I think is so unique, right,
Because what might not impact somebody's vocational job for
(04:39):
other people's that would have an on their job.
And so it's navigate. Because you can have a clinical
diagnosis of these things. But for me, I had to analyze
myself internally and be honest myself.
That was the key point. My subconscious mind would want
to fool myself. Like, I don't have a drinking
problem. If you had the problems I had or
seen the things I did, you'd drink too, you know, just to
(05:01):
numb it away. But it's when you can't stop,
when those things start buildingup, all those things that you
talked about aren't sufficient enough to cause you to moderate
or to stop. That's when that's when you
really need to look at it and see.
Because a heavy hard drinker canlook just like an alcoholic, you
know? But to be an alcoholic, it's a
whole different ball game. Well, I appreciate that self
(05:22):
reflection piece that you know, it has to come with like looking
inward because you know, you could give people a piece of
paper and say like will you check all these boxes?
But if they're not looking, theycould give you all the reasons
that they're not, you know? And believe in themselves.
Believe it. Yes, they really do sometimes
believe it, right? Would you be willing to share a
(05:42):
little bit about what that self reflection look like for you?
What it to be on yourself look like?
Yes, and I have to say that those things that I had to self
reflect had to do with how I coped with hard times all of my
life. I mean that's really where it
started. I'm a compartmentalized person,
(06:03):
So when I go through things, I just want to put it in an
imaginary box on an imaginary shelf and shove it way back
there and pretend like it didn'thappen because yes, way back.
Because it really does. What I would say is does it
really matter today? Like right here today?
Does it matter that these thingshave happened to me?
But The thing is, I wasn't beinghonest with myself on all those
(06:23):
issues. And my hard things in life
started early. You know, they started really
early. I think those hard things as a
child made me the police officerI am today, you know, the person
that wanted to solve problems for people and, and not have
them go down the same roads thatI went down.
It made me a good cop. Yeah.
(06:44):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And, and the more I'm around police officers that have gone
through the journey of mental health Wellness, you know,
trying to get well and, and clean themselves out, have the
same attributes, you know, that things in their life weren't
always the the best. You know, we didn't grow up in
these perfect environments and then just wanted to be a police
officer. Yeah, it happens, but not very
often. And I think you make that great
(07:05):
point. I feel like we've been, we've
been talking today prior to recording, right?
And it's this notion of we oftenlike to say that our childhood
and things that happen don't really matter, right?
Like, right. Oh, not a big deal.
This is the present moment. I hear that all the time in my
office. I don't want to dig that up
again. Not so exactly, right.
Why would I? I'm fine now and I get it.
(07:26):
I do get that mindset. And it's really, really hard to
sometimes one just even facing and acknowledge that those
things happen in your childhood,right.
But then the do that work. Yeah, right.
But yet as a clinician, it's so important for us to say, well,
it dictates well, why you do what you do, right?
Like it can. And it can make us definitely
kind of view life in different ways.
(07:47):
And obviously, without that, we don't learn and we don't grow as
kids. That's just what it is.
We learn from our environment and the people that are raising
us right. So it's really, really hard to
not focus back in on that. I get a lot of shit, I'm going
to be honest, from my first responders when I go, when I try
to get to their like, you know, their past, they're always like,
why do clinicians do this? You know, they give me a hard
(08:08):
time. Such a cliche therapist, Ash.
I'm like, well, let's work on itand let's see.
And if you're trusting me, you know, after this, if it doesn't
make a difference, then you can come back and give me that shit.
But I think you make a really, really great point in that.
And a lot of our first responders do not love to dive
into that childhood now. Well, and I think, you know, we
were having this conversation last night when we have an
(08:30):
experience, I have a client who is able to say, Hey, I had you
happen in my childhood. And so there's like a an
openness about that, which is amazing.
You're recognizing, hey, there'ssome stuff that happened in my
childhood that was ideal, but that's it.
Like it's just a surface answer.And I love what you said about
like how I was coping from then.And so it's again, which is
(08:52):
great when people are open and honest.
But again, it's just like, how do those things impact how you
cope? How do those things impact how
you the world? You know, there's all these
things that can be really impactful for that and talking
about it doesn't build it to change those.
I really wish I could and yet I think it's powerful.
Look and say that is make sense on how to respond in that, you
(09:15):
know, compartmentalize a lot of people, including myself at
times, and there can be some healthy compartment in life.
There absolutely can be. I think sometimes therapy can be
quick to put stuff as good and bad instead of recognize like a
good and bad thing. How do you feel like you cope
differently? Now I can listen to outside
(09:35):
people telling me how I'm responding to something.
I can somebody says, well, you don't look right.
Are you OK? Or why did you respond in this
way or that That's not your norm.
And instead of getting defensiveand feeling judged, I can
actually then say, oh, wow, they're noticing something in
me. What am I feeling like the cause
of these things are and kind of self reflect in a manner that's
(09:58):
not so judgmental because that'sme.
I beat myself up all the time. I'm my own worst critic.
It's like I have a judge, a juryin my head that this that keeps
finding myself guilty and sentencing myself to all of this
negativity over and over and over.
You know, there's no reason to feel negative about stuff.
There's all we have to do is make slight changes in life.
(10:20):
And in fact, that's why I think we're here.
I think we're here to use these experiences that are catalyst
for growth, these rough spots tosend us in a slightly different
trajectory. I don't have to do a 180
immediately. I just have to do a little bit
different and then see how that works and a little bit different
after that until I can finally, I eventually add those up and it
is a 180, you know, I, I can seehow to fix these things in life
(10:45):
instead of trying to numb them or push them back on that shelf
or ignore them and just keep trudging forward.
You know, I appreciate that reflection terms of it when
often was I need to be 100, needto be 180, I just need to be 100
instead of recognizing what those what they really.
Do right. And sometimes people outside of
us can see them faster than we can see them, you know?
I think a lot of the time times,right?
(11:05):
And that's for any one of us at any given time.
Yeah, just because I'm a clinician does not mean that
does not happen to me too. Like people are able to identify
things. That's because it's harder to
see it. It's harder to self reflect for
sure. So when I I want to make sure
that our listeners here kind of get, I don't want to put you on
the spot with your background story, like the full story,
because that's up to you and what you want to share.
(11:26):
But when did you or how long didyou go before you recognize
like, hey, I might need to make some changes.
I might need to decades. Decades, OK, before I realized I
needed a change. And I don't mind telling some of
my background story. And here's the thing, I had a
very significant childhood trauma.
So when I had great parents, I mean, they raised this good.
(11:50):
My mom was my moral compass. She stayed home and she made
sure that we did things right inlife, you know, and they made us
happy and did all the good things.
But when I was seven, I was brutally attacked by a random
person. And I, I'm a survivor of that.
But when I went to the hospital and I had surgery, I had a head
injury and I had been sexually assaulted.
(12:11):
And I tried to tell my mom all these things.
My mom told me I was safe. My mom told me that it was going
to be OK, that everything was fine.
And because of the head trauma she who knows at 7 how I even
explained that. But she said due to the head
trauma I was having these nightmares and that it was all
OK. And my mom did the best she
(12:31):
could at that moment. You know, whether she knew it or
didn't know it or I wasn't making any sense.
My mom kept me safe and protected.
But because I was not heard, I was alone with that hurt because
I had no outlet for it. I kept that inside and it
consequently made me feel like Ididn't fit in anywhere.
(12:53):
I felt like if I was lying to myself that this event occurred
because there was a story, you know what I mean?
That I fell in the cement and hurt my head and all these
things. If that was true and not what I
was thinking it was, and then what kind of person am I?
You know, I don't deserve this family.
I don't deserve to have this life.
I felt like I didn't fit in anywhere and I was alone with my
(13:15):
pain. I mean, that was it.
And it was very awkward and thatwent on for years of me feeling
this way even though I was safe and protected with this
beautiful family. Right, right.
And it went on for years. And the, the solution to that,
that solution that took that, that weirdness away was alcohol.
I remember being a young teen and we all got together at my,
(13:35):
my parents' house, lake house, and they were all, you know,
it's somebody else's. And so we all got together.
We were mixing stuff in the, from the liquor cabinet and
everybody take a little swig andgo, oh, you know, that was, that
was crazy. I drank it like a fish.
I drank it until I was throwing up, passed out on the floor with
the room spinning. But the whole time that I was
drinking, that thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm comfortable in my own
(13:57):
skin. Yeah, for the first time ever, I
feel like I'm OK. And I'm not saying I was an
alcoholic at that point. At that point, alcohol was my
solution. And I didn't use it all the
time. I mean, the opportunity wasn't
there until later in life. But I knew how that made me
feel. You know, that was my go to.
When things got bad, it was because I didn't feel
comfortable in my own skin. There's two ways my life could
(14:20):
have gone. I could have gone on to feel
uncomfortable in every living situation and not been a
productive member of society. And you know, it's not gotten a
good job and and kind of stayed in the downtrodden way of life.
But instead I decided to full bore go.
You know what I mean? Like my because my parents
instilled that in me, right. You're a success in life of what
you make of it. So you need to do this thing,
(14:42):
you know, And so that drive for success was on based on what
they gave me, but again, never feeling like I deserved it.
You know, what I think is reallycrucial to to point out here is
how those negative thoughts towards yourself from an event
that you could not control manifested.
I don't think people take enoughtime to stop to realize that
when we go through something as traumatic as that, how we turn
(15:05):
inward, right? Like, we just hear these
traumatic events and from the outside as I think we all make
our own judgments or what have you.
But how that manifested for you,how you turn that inward so much
and you're like, I don't even want to be in my own skin.
Right. And not enough people stop to
realize that this is what happens.
Yeah, right. This is what leads because I
think we also, you are extremelyresilient and the path you took
(15:28):
was incredible. But we do see so many people
take that other path. But how quickly when all you're
feeding yourself are these negative thoughts like that?
Yeah, right. And I think that's important,
especially because we have a lotof first responders that listen
to this. If it's not them, the people you
work with in your communities, Right.
Like being aware of that. I thought you just put that so
perfect perfectly. I couldn't.
I'm like, Oh my gosh, I need to.Well, I learn from you every
(15:49):
time I see you. But yeah, I'm like I, I'm like I
the way you just said that. I'm like how beautifully said
that because it's hard, it's hard to articulate that how that
can manifest for somebody. And it doesn't have to be a
serious event like what happenedto me being alone with your pain
period as a child. Because think about it, you're
born with a clean slate, aren't you?
(16:10):
Like you don't have all these things.
Now I'm explaining this in a copterminology.
OK y'all we love. They're all going to love it.
They're probably like, thank goodness, finally.
You mental health professionals and you're breaking down to the
brain, but I think of the brain like a computer system, OK, so
it uses past experience to predict what I'm going to do in
the current moment to keep me safe.
(16:31):
Like the brain keeps me safe. So my egoic brain puts all these
boundaries on it like I'm going to keep people at arm's length
or I'm going to judge them before they judge me.
I'm going to do all these thingsto keep myself safe from these
events that we're along with as a child.
And it could be something small,it could be a divorce.
I say small. These aren't small, but a
divorce or having somebody in your family pass away as a young
(16:54):
child, all these things that were alone with our hurt and we
do feel like we can't share withanybody can cause the same thing
that happened to me. And if I never share those
things, that's when I have to find an outside source to quell
them. And if it's substances, it's a
long road, like it's a long hardRd. especially when you feel
like you have your life on track.
(17:14):
I, I didn't fall into that downtrodden form.
I was going, I was, I personallywas going to make a success out
of my life, you know, like, but here's I gave 110% of
everything. But the problem with that is
there's no such thing as 110%, right?
100% is a full circle. Like that's it.
Like that's the whole thing. But because I, I wanted to give
(17:35):
110%, anything I did to myself was nothing like I was in the
Army. So if I could Max my PT test, I
would fit in, you know, but I could have extended scale Max,
you know, I could have done moresit ups.
So anything I did, if I, I got on a SRT team in the Army, the
first female ever to do that. And I didn't do it because I was
a female. I just, you know, like you, I
(17:56):
could do this. And for yeah, for once, I would
fit in with the rest of the soldiers.
I would be a soldier. But instead it wasn't good
enough. You know what I mean?
Like I, I felt like I could havedone something better.
The guys outran me or did this this shot better than me or
whatever. But the whole time I'm I got on
the team, you know, I did it. I, I never still felt like I fit
in until I would go with the guys and have a couple drinks
(18:19):
and then I would be one of them.You know, to me, that's what
that warm blanket was, but I didn't recognize that.
It wasn't like it was a go to a meeting, but it felt like this.
The problem with coping with alcohol for such a long period
of time is it's actually a bodily dysfunction.
I damaged my liver and pancreas to the point where it didn't get
rid of the byproducts like normal people.
Normal people take a drink and through breath or urine or
(18:42):
whatever, they they get rid of these extra.
There are chemicals in there where mine retain those and it
causes a craving, A craving for more alcohol.
And so my true intention is to go out with the guys and drink a
beer, you know, after work or whatever one go home to my
family, you know, and do what I'm supposed to do.
But when I drink that one, that craving builds And next thing
(19:04):
you know, I'm doing two or threeor drinking with them and then
going home and drinking six more.
And that took, like I said, decades to build up to that
point, But that's where I was itthat that craving for my alcohol
is, is not something that you can see.
So if I'm allergic to strawberries, I might break out
in a rash when I eat strawberries.
So you think, oh man, see the rash, but a craving, No one told
(19:25):
me that when I was young. And so I didn't recognize it,
you know, and then you talk about that, the brain part of
it, I built a neural bypass in my brain to solve all solutions
with alcohol. So if I was happy, I wanted to,
I didn't want to get too happy, you know, out of control.
So I would numb it. I would want to numb it with
alcohol. That'd be my immediate thought.
If I was celebrating something, I wanted to do it with alcohol.
(19:48):
If I was sad about something, I wanted to numb it with alcohol.
So these neuro bypasses that that we build with these
solutions are like learning how to ride a bike, right?
So when you first get on a bike,you can't pedal, you fall over,
but you eventually learn how to do that and you build a neural
bypass in your brain how to ridea bike.
So if you haven't ridden a bike in 10 years, can't you just get
on it and ride it? Yes, you can.
(20:09):
I learned that in the in Berlin of all places.
That neural bypass never goes away, neither is the alcohol 1.
So for me wanting to cope with everything with alcohol, I'm to
get out of that mindset. I need to build different.
I need to learn how to use the emotions properly as a guidance
rather than trying to stuff theminto a box and put them on
(20:31):
itself, you know? And again, who, unless you're
around clinicians or go to therapy, who heard about these
neural bypasses, things, you know, but your brain due to
neuroplasticity can change, you know, it molds into these new
ways to cope with things. But that original 1 doesn't go
away, you know? So I have to do things to be
(20:52):
able to cope with this in a different way.
Yeah, I'm smiling so big becausewhen I present, I always talk
about that process, right, neuroplasticity.
And my men and women are always like, here she goes again with
that word, with that word. But we can do it.
Later. I'm just trying to so I'm
smiling 'cause I guarantee they're gonna listen to listen.
(21:12):
That's Ashley playing out well. And I've said the younger and I
think childhood and adolescent to try things limit might
include alcohol and I do think culture still a lot of around
agriculture utilize that. So those are the norms as well
as born slate. And when we're little and things
happened, we don't have the whole development.
(21:34):
No, it's not my fault or no, I can share how to even have the
words to express something that's happened to us.
And so so it can really be just like this layered thing that
happens. Yeah.
And I I don't disagree with me here, but I do think though work
to find different coping skills and I think substances, alcohol,
(21:55):
it is a quick second time and that's why we utilize and I
think you're right. Like I I don't think nobody's
had a bad day and they go have adrink and they're an alcoholic.
But at the same time there is this line that sometime can
cross and what is happening withour brain when our happy?
Because me feeling like I never fit in it, it continues on and I
(22:17):
have not talked to a first responder that doesn't say the
same thing I do Like so when we show up to the child that
drowned in a pool, you know, and, and our common sense brain
tells us that child's been in there for a while.
Even though I pull that child out and I and I do life saving
measures and they don't make it.I I know in my rational brain
that that was not my fault. You know what I mean?
(22:39):
Like I didn't leave him in the pool.
It wasn't the way I did CPR. My subconscious mind says what
mother let's a child drowned in a pool.
When I say it out loud, it sounds stupid, you know, like,
no, you didn't do that. You you did all the things
you're supposed to do, but that's subconscious mind those
things that we carry around thatdon't make any sense, but they
(23:01):
just lurk in the back of your brain are powerful.
We're supposed to be above the rest of society because we
enforce the law. We're supposed to adhere to the
law perfectly. Kind of it's a perfect I fight
on the road and look at my speedometer thinking, oh gosh, I
got a slow, let alone misusing alcohol, having that one or two
drinks to take the edge off withthe guys by yourself, whatever
(23:23):
is fine. But when we overshoot that, then
that guilt and you know, I'm supposed to be better than this.
I'm not supposed to fall down the stairs or have a fight with
my spouse or whatever the case may be.
That was maybe brought on by that misuse of alcohol that one
time. So that guilt, shame and remorse
is a vicious cycle, right? You know.
Which that we can do as humans alot resistance and a lot of
(23:45):
pushback and a lot of hiding. Yes is such a yes.
And if there is this pressure, yeah, what are we really having
a really work? And can't you, I know you guys
both have your parents were in law enforcement all your life.
Yet your dad or mom for some people come home and they're
acting kind of distant or grouchy or whatever.
It's hard for kids not to internalize that, you know, and,
(24:07):
and, and make it about themselves and be alone with
their hurt too, you know, but the whole time, actually your,
your dad's, that we're law enforcement, we're trying to
protect you and not, not tellingyou about those critical
incidents. 100% I always talk about, you know, there was only
two times, I mean, he was what 29 years and there was only two
times he came home, maybe even one that was really apparent to
(24:30):
me where he hugged me and was like, don't ever take our, our
fighting or something as an extreme.
And then I found out later what had happened and, and things
like that. But what my dad was notorious
for like coming home and like watching TV, but zoning out
completely. So I I'd be like, dad, dad, dad
and tell him my whole life story.
And he would be like, uh huh. But not even look my way, right?
(24:50):
Like, and I don't think he knew he was doing it, but that was
just his way of like, well, I'm with you guys.
Yeah, right. Like I'm hanging out.
We're watching TV, right? We're doing this and that.
But yet he was disengaged. Like, I'm sure he's going to
listen to this and be like, what?
But he was, you know, and I feellike it is hard as a kid
sometimes to be like, OK, is that me?
He just doesn't want to listen to me talk.
(25:12):
But because when as a kid you don't know any better, so you do
internalize that very quickly, very, very quick.
So I love that you hit on that as.
Well, and then as the as the lawenforcement person, then you
feel guilty. Then you want to make it for it,
maybe by being too nice and giving presents and doing all
the things you know, because youweren't home enough or you were
distracted, or the opposite, pulling away and there's a
(25:32):
wedge, you know. Absolutely.
I do hear that a lot from our our children of first
responders. So that's something that's super
important as well. And it's not only, I guess I
want to also note here, because we're talking right now, right?
Like incredible powerful story about alcohol, but experiences
in my own, like family life and things like that.
Like it's not only alcohol. Like I feel like pain medicines
(25:55):
that are given right by doctors when our first responders get
injured and all these things they develop, right?
So we have all this trauma and we have all the, we may not be
well, but then we have somethinglike that transpire and man,
life just spirals out of controlfast sometimes, right?
You don't have a way to catch it, right?
And so then we're looking at things a little bit differently.
And then I want to note, yeah, because I think a lot of our
(26:15):
listeners, while they're going to absolutely relate because
alcohol is I think our number one in terms of first responders
and, and the normalcy around it.But like, there's also so many
other things that I've come across while working with first
responders that it's just like this coping mechanism.
If I can find it, I'm going to do it.
Yeah, and it could, it could be anything.
You know, it's not just alcohol and substance addiction, right?
(26:37):
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's a huge one. Huge one.
And if people hide it so you don't, it's not in your face.
So you think you're the only onespending money you don't have?
Spending money? Oh.
Yes, that's a big one, yes. And then you feel like you have
to work all these overtime jobs to make up for the loss of
income that you're spending or that you get used to living in
this house. It's above your means or driving
(26:59):
these cars that you can't afford.
And but you ever notice when youget one of those things like, I
want that car, I want that car and you get it.
And then not even three days later, it feels normal again.
So you're seeking, you're it's adopamine hit that you're just
constantly going after that never stops.
And if that's what alcohol is, you know, like that's, that's
what it is. You just keep seeking and
(27:19):
seeking and seeking. And what used to work to make me
feel numb or feel like I fit in all of a sudden is this grand
giant thing where it used to just be a couple drinks.
You know, it just escalates evenrealize.
It is hard and I see that often with clients.
The runway run, you know what wewere using to get that plane off
(27:39):
the ground? That gets shorter and like
you're having to escalate and escalate more until again, it
feels so adequate. And is alcohol spiraled in my
life, They kind of did it incrementally.
So conditions in my life got worse and worse on a slow basis.
So think of an elevator going down slowly.
So conditions in my life would get worse.
(28:01):
Like I'd never, I would never drink in the morning.
Are you kidding me? Like that's, that's an
alcoholic. They got to get up and drink.
Oh, but I'm off and I'm watchingFood Network and they drink
mimosis in the morning. So why?
Can't I suppose that? What's your name?
Hoda. Hoda.
Hoda. Good Morning, America.
Campaign. Popping the champagne all the
(28:22):
time. Yeah.
So what's wrong with that? So that's incrementally lowering
my standards. I could wrap my mind around
those things. It's when alcohol totally took
over my life and that elevator dropped like it was broken, like
the cable broke and dropped to the basement all at once.
That's when I realized that I had a problem, but all these
other things kept happening. It's like the universe kept
(28:43):
trying to show me that I was having this problem, and the
problems would escalate little by little.
Thankfully, it wasn't some legalissues, or I didn't drink and
drive and crash or get a DUI, but it was other areas of my
life that slippery slope came in.
You know, here I am, an ethical,moral person, but I start making
excuses at work about things or why something happened.
(29:06):
Excuses of lies, little white lies, I used to call them
improvements on the truth. I was married and I didn't want
to tell my spouse how much moneywe were spending.
And so I would try to hide the checkbook even though I was we
were spending it together. I would make these improvements
on the truth in all aspects of my life.
How to discipline the kids, how much, Like I said, the finances.
But it also came with my alcohol.
(29:28):
So we drink a couple beers everynight and that would be fine.
But then that craving would kickoff in myself and I'd go to
clean the kitchen and slam a beer and shove that beer can to
the bottom of the trash can. Or go out to the garage and get
a couple warm ones out of the case and show them in the back
of the ones in the refrigerator so that he wouldn't notice they
were missing. Those improvements on the truth,
which were lies, caused a huge wedge between me and my spouse
(29:51):
and we wound up getting divorced.
And it was all alcoholism, the whole thing.
And I crept into all areas of mylife.
I wasn't showing up to work drunk, but I would get home and
I would drink more and more. I would.
I had an office job eventually and I would move my hours up so
that I could get home before thekids got home.
I told myself to give myself a mental break, but really it was
(30:13):
to get that ease and comfort of that first drink before I got
there, so I could breathe again before the kids walked in the
door. But then I would, I switched to
hard alcohol easier to, I would say I would, I could drink it a
little bit faster and it feel better for the evening and not
have to drink so much because those beer cans, who makes those
little tiny cans? I think to myself, they were
(30:36):
just everywhere. And so I switched to hard
alcohol to find myself drinking more and more.
It wasn't less and less like I thought it was going to do to
the point where I would be at home and I was not a barfly.
So I must not be an alcohol. Like I wasn't homeless under the
bridge. I was at home with my kids doing
homeless homework, watching a little TV and making dinner.
(30:56):
I would now this didn't happen every day, but I would, we would
do our homework and we'd be sitting in the living room and I
think, you know, it's almost time to make dinner.
Next commercial break. That's what I'll go do to look
up what felt like 1 commercial breakaway and see The Dirty
dishes in this thing and dinner.I made dinner.
We ate already. Like I, I must have a brain
tumor. I mean, I 1000% thought that I
(31:17):
had a brain tumor and something was wrong with me, but I didn't
dare go to the doctor, you know,But subconsciously I probably
knew that it was the alcohol is the thing.
But consciously I could have passed a lie detector test to
say I didn't have a problem, youknow?
Yeah. It just crept in that much and
those reasoning skills were gone.
I was, I was lying to myself because I was divorced by this
time. I mean, there was there's there
(31:39):
was nobody to lie to but me, right.
Like it made no sense. None.
Well, and I. Appreciate that ability to say
like wasn't homeless underneath a bridge.
Like then there is high functioning and alcoholism still
happening. People are still showing up for
jobs and cooking dinner and things like that.
And yet, you know, we can be in the cycle of addiction and like
you said, hiding it. It is.
(32:00):
What do you feel like was so helpful for you in terms of that
ability to be honest with yourself or?
I had an incident work that I needed in my mind to cover up.
I had by this time it was like Ididn't even want to pay my
bills. Like I had money in the bank,
but I was waiting until the electricity was about to be
turned off to, to pay it or looking out the window every day
(32:20):
at the car I had with it had a loan on it like most people do,
but but not paying it and thinking any day they're going
to repossess it. But it might be easier not to,
you know, just to, to chill out,not have to worry about that
stuff. It wasn't like I intentionally
let my truck get repossessed, but it it's like I put that on a
shelf with all those critical incidents from work with those,
you know, that the dead kids andthe, the people and wrecks and
(32:42):
the death and the domestics. I just put them on this
imaginary shelf and shoved them back on down there along with my
childhoods. Just didn't want to deal with
it. Well, I had by this point let my
truck get repossessed. Like why?
I was driving my work car to andfrom work.
I'd stop at the grocery store. Who needs to go out anyway?
It was an excuse to stay home and drink is what it was.
(33:03):
You know, I didn't need to go out and take the kids places.
We were fine. I had a backyard playground and
we did all the things where we lived.
So who cares? I didn't want work to realize
that. I didn't have that enough
cognizance of my mind to think if they knew that I didn't have
my own car that they would be issued.
So I lied about something to cover that up and went on with
my life when I told myself, you know, this might be a little
(33:25):
much like I really need to chillout like I used to when I was in
the Army. I could go to the field for a
month or when I was pregnant, I drink for a year and not worry
about it. I need to chill out a little bit
with the alcohol is what I told myself because it's a daily
thing now. So I, I, I told that white lie
or improvement on the truth at work to cover up what was going
on at home, to tell myself to chill out, to go home and drink
(33:47):
just like I had for months if not years before.
Without a thought in my mind. I went home and drank without
even thinking about chilling out.
Didn't dawn on me until I passedout in my chair right that
night. Woke up the next morning, got
put my uniform on, went into work.
I was standing there at the photocopier and I thought to
myself, oh Marian, you drink that.
You promised yourself you weren't going to do that.
(34:09):
I knew then there was a problem.I knew that lie that I told at
work hit me like a ton of bricks.
In fact, that whole shelf of imaginary things, all those
things, all those traumas that Iwas helpless, hopeless, and not
good enough about that were on that shelf came crashing down on
my head and I knew I had a problem.
I knew I wanted to drink that moment to cover that up.
(34:29):
Like there was no that that was my only solution and that was a
good thing. That's what we call a bottom,
right? Like that's it.
I felt like I was in quicksand and I was sinking and it was as
hard as I was trying to pull outof it.
There was number pulling out andI knew that I couldn't solve it
myself. But it takes that pain, right?
That pain that's not going away.My solution wasn't working
(34:52):
anymore. You know, I couldn't drink it
away like it was still there. And so I said I needed help.
I went to a 30 day treatment center.
That's hard to do as a first responder.
You know, you see, you hear all these people you, you deal with
on the street that are, are going to treatment, you know,
and here it's me, all these people that I've judged for all
(35:13):
these years and, you know, rolled my eyes when I had to go
there five times. I'm going to where they go.
But I'm telling you, I needed that.
I needed that 30 days to breathe.
Yeah, yes, absolutely. To show me that I can survive
this without alcohol, that I, that I'm not the only one that
goes through this. It affects everybody from Park
Ave. To Park Bench like I was in
(35:35):
there with doctors and nurses and judges and all kinds of
people and homeless people and work and laborers and in every
walk of life. It does discriminate it.
Doesn't. No, not at all.
So I conceded in my innermost self that I had a problem, went
there and I could breathe. The The next step was though, I
had to leave there, just hide here forever like this is
(36:00):
working for me. Can I just say, But no, I had to
get back to it. I had to, I had to leave there
and figure out what that even meant.
I had a friend pick me up. I went to a treatment center a
couple hours from her. She picked me up and I thought
she was bringing me home and I didn't know how to navigate this
thing. And she didn't bring me home.
She brought me to the A a hall in my hometown where I worked,
(36:24):
where I police, where I had arrested people for the same
problem I had. Yeah, you know, and I I was
sitting in the truck and I was like, I have to get out.
She goes, oh, perfect time for meeting.
Yes, you need to go in there right now.
And I was like, do that. But here's the thing.
I knew I'm glad she did it that way.
I'm glad she didn't warn me. I'm glad she just did it because
if I had not done that, what where would I find a solution
(36:46):
once I got home? No, AAA is not for everybody.
There's a million ways to get sober.
But for me, I can't think of anyother way to do.
Yeah, I had a problem with organized religion.
I thought religion was for weak people.
My parents told me how to make asuccess out of my life.
I grew up and thinking that God was wrathful and punished us,
and we were going to hell if we sinned or weren't good enough.
(37:09):
So to me, I believed that there was something out there that was
in charge of all things in the universe, but it wasn't for me.
So I had to set that off to the side and I had to figure out
what that looked like in my world and a did it for me.
That's what I needed to do. Walking into that room, though,
as a police officer of at that time over 10 years was probably
(37:31):
the hardest, one of the hardest things I've ever met.
I walked in there and I bawled the first three meetings I went
to and I sat in the corner and Ijust, but I heard my I heard my
exact emotional emotions that surrounded my life, life coming
from these people. It wasn't the details, you know,
it was, it was the the similarities in there and, and
(37:54):
and how we handle life. And I listen to their solution
and their solution was this twelve set program.
You know, these people that I had arrested or dealt with over
and over loved me until I could love myself because they were in
there for a reason. Court papers are not.
They were in they could forge their own court papers.
They can do that. They were in there to find a
solution and was the same solution provided to me and I, I
(38:16):
couldn't, I couldn't have asked for a better way to do it.
You know it definitely it without a doubt.
It was a foundation of of my sobriety.
That's so beautiful to powerful.Well, and can.
You talk a little bit about how you use.
That thing helps you so much. So I actually got out of law
enforcement. I, I had to leave.
I mean, I, I had told that lie. You can't have a police officer
(38:37):
on your staff that has lied about something.
Can't go to court then. And, you know, like, and, and,
and it'd be expected to tell thetruth.
So I moved on. I was just in mainstream.
I had to learn how to take all those things that I things that
I didn't life, that I didn't live up to my own standards and
clean them up. So I thought of myself like a
trash can, right? I had to take that trash can of
(39:00):
my life, of all the gross stuff that's in there and I had to
dump it out. I didn't throw it away.
I took all that trash and I withthe help of a sponsor and the 12
step program, I got to dump thatstuff out, take a scrub brush,
not only clean up that trash, but clean the inside of that
can, which is me. And then take all that cleaned
up trash and put it back in me. Because we can't get rid of the
(39:20):
things we did in life, but we can clean them up and I can make
amends and try to fix things. I, it's not apologies, it's how
can I fix, how can I fix how I wronged you?
What can I do to make this better?
Actionable things that helped meclean up that trash help me to
use my past experience to help somebody else figure out that
(39:41):
they've had the same issue and how they can clean up their mess
of their life and use it to the good to help others.
I had to figure out that I am not in charge of my life.
I am the one that can do the next right thing over and over,
but the outcomes come up to something greater than me and
that's where that religious piece gets muddied in there.
I had to put religion to the side and and just say there's
(40:01):
something out here bigger than me that is running the universe.
It's no different than going to court, right?
I put a case together. I do my best job over and over
to put that case together. It's not up to me what the jury
does or what the judge does. I have to let go of that control
of the outcomes. I'm not in the outcome business.
Anymore and know that there's a bigger picture.
Why did these things happen to me?
Why did that event as a child happen to me?
(40:23):
So I could be mad at God or whatever you want to call that
thing that runs the universe. But really, why would I don't
need to be mad at God? These are things, I think those
catalysts in life that help us move that little trajectory over
are the things that make it good, right?
I had this thing happen to me and I felt like I wasn't good
(40:44):
enough for my mother. To be honest with you.
That's really it wasn't the assault.
That's why I say it doesn't matter what happened to you.
I felt like I didn't live up to my mother's standards.
You know, like if I believe thatthis bad thing happened to me
and she does it, what kind of a child lies about that?
In my mind, that's what made me not feel like I fit in.
And so I had to realize that that wasn't true.
My mom had her own points of view.
I have my own points of view. I just need to figure out those
(41:08):
things in life. And maybe that's what that event
was supposed to do for me so I can figure these things out in
life because I don't regret thathappening to me now.
Like I could have lived in as a victim or in bitterness forever
about that. But instead I chose to use that
as a springboard to bring me to where I am in life to help other
people realize that they don't have to live in victim mentality
(41:28):
either. And that's how I can police now.
I love it. I don't have to sit there, judge
somebody like, why are you doingthis over and over?
Just give them that little bit of hope that those things can
show them the proper way to live, which is additional love
of everything. I'm never going to be perfect at
that is the thing. So I can unconditionally love
maybe my kids, but do we like I do unconditionally love my kids,
(41:50):
but I put expectations on them, you know, do good or I might be
mad, or I'm not going to give you your allowance or I'm going
to take your cell phone away. That's life, right?
But that is not what my higher power has for me.
You know, my higher power loves me unconditionally.
It's myself, Will that puts all that judgement on myself of
these things. And that's what I had to learn.
I'm in control of my emotions and what surrounds them and how
(42:13):
I choose to apply them. I can be sad or angry, but then
how can I balance that out with the wisdom to unconditionally
love it anyway? I don't love the fact that I was
assaulted as a child, but I haveto try.
I have to try to see the good that came out of that, you know?
And that's, to me, the essence of life.
Well, also, I think that's the essence, you know, and like you
(42:35):
said, to finally have to sit in all things that we, yeah, you
know, and that that's your work,you know, that's the work
they've done. And I think it's beautiful how
you, it's such a fire in you that you want to give to others
as well. You wanted to catch some others
experience. I do and their struggles.
Not only the people that maybe that I deal with on the street,
but also in the first responder community, because we're, we're
(42:57):
on the same boat. We, we want to put on this
armor, you know what I mean? Like, we're this rough, tough
thing and nothing to breakthrough my armor, but that
armor's rusty. It needs to be cleaned up.
You know, we need to know when take that armor off and be
vulnerable and, and feel the emotions versus having to wear
it work. Yeah.
To survive those events. And never take it off.
(43:17):
I know, never take it off. So how do you feed yourself?
How do you right take care of yourself when you're walking
around in this rusty armor? Well, I think that that's Ashley
and IA little bit of our compassion here and our love and
our work with the podcast is like, how is it when there's
somebody at the dinner table with armor, you know, like how
does that impact? You know, how do they function
(43:39):
or not? And of course, our goal is for
that, pick that armor off and bethere with.
It is. If there was to, I don't want to
because we could keep you for 20years for sure, because your
story is so powerful. And I, I really can't wait for
people to hear this episode. And if there is somebody right
now who is listening and is struggling in any kind, you know
what I mean? Like is there any words of
advice that you would want to give to somebody?
(44:02):
I would say if you are struggling, especially with
substance abuse, reach out. You're somebody else's story,
not just mine. There's online first responder
meetings that you can go and listen to everybody's story and
it if you can connect or resonate with what they're
saying, start investigating thatwith yourself, with somebody
who's been through it because that's the key.
(44:23):
It almost seems like judgement when it comes from the outside
when people are pointing things out to you.
But if you can find someone who's been through the fire
already that you can relate to and identify with, start
listening to them and see, because it's all self reflection
like you guys. Meanwhile, therapy is needed.
Therapy is so needed to for me to realize these things to
(44:44):
myself. But sometimes we feel judged
when we go in there. You need a combination of both.
Somebody who's been through it themselves along with you,
mental health professionals thatcan point out these subconscious
mind things. Because that's the key too, is
to just to be able to see what the problem is.
And you guys have all the training for that.
I do think that's a beautiful ofthe 12 steps is how you give
back to that help somebody just especially right.
(45:07):
And it's such a safe zone because no one is gonna leave
there and talk about what you just shared or what you've been
through. We've all been.
Yeah, we have. Anything else that would be to
share before we get wrap up the?We don't like to admit fear.
I'm not afraid of anything. I'll run into a, I'll run into
the gunfire. But fear is healthy.
It's a healthy emotion to recognize but transcend because
(45:29):
that's what we do, right? We have fear when there's
gunshots, we just run through itanyway.
You're right. And so do that with your
personal life. Get through those things, yes.
It doesn't just apply to work. Go through it, feel the pain,
feel the emotions and. And get to the side.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
(45:50):
Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
I think that, again, I know there's always these episodes
where I'm like, uh oh, we're going to get hounded because
people are going to want you now.
A lot. So they're going to break.
Please reach out to. Marion back on and we can share
some of that information if you're open to a divorce and we
can post it on our our socials and things like that as well.
Because I don't know, I know this is substance abuse was
(46:11):
something that we we knew we needed to start covering on this
podcast. But to be honest, like I've
learned, I learned so much from you and I and I know Jennifer
has. And so we were both like, well,
it has to come from Mary, has tocome from Mary and it can't come
from us. You know what I mean?
And so honestly, to have you here to to listen, I get I can
listen all day and continue to learn and just I'm just so
(46:33):
thankful. So, well, thank you for having
me. Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer, anything you want to wrap up with?
I know. All right, Well, you guys know
the routine that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I are
here for you and we can't wait for the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!