August 13, 2025 • 36 mins
Ashlee [00:00:00]:
I think that there's the pros and cons. I think that there's a family system and family dynamic that happens with first responders. That instilling resiliency, which we've talked greatly about within your kids. Right. Like, is what continues to even in the midst of sometimes chaos. Because every family has the right to chaos.
Jennifer [00:00:18]:
Right.
Ashlee [00:00:18]:
Instilling that resiliency and instilling that if we're a good first responder. Right. We know that we're instilling these proper values of respect and integrity and all these things. And I think that's where that system comes into play, because everybody in that household pretty much upholds that. Right. And so then you go into this world when you are a child and you. That's all you know. I still think that there are moments where I look at other people who didn't grow up in a first responder family, and I literally, like, my brain can't comprehend how their brain.
Jennifer [00:00:54]:
Right.
Ashlee [00:00:55]:
Doesn't think the way that I do. Like, doesn't see it in. In different, like, the ways that I do. But I have to remember that that emotional intell. Isn't there at that extent of. Because they didn't have to have that because it was instilled in us at a young age to think differently, to think more critically, to be aware of our surroundings.
Jennifer [00:01:14]:
Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
Ashlee [00:01:16]:
And I'm Ashlee.
Jennifer [00:01:18]:
And here we are. And it's just us today. We don't get to say special guest. Yeah.
Ashlee [00:01:23]:
Which again, if people are following along and have this game, I don't know, who am I to say, like, sorry, you're missing out. Although you said it, you said it.
Jennifer [00:01:33]:
So maybe it counts.
Ashlee [00:01:34]:
But they're really. I feel like we've hit it really big with some of these guests lately, and I'm just so thankful.
Jennifer [00:01:41]:
Great. I mean, I hope that we always come across with such gratitude for our guests that give their most valuable thing right that we have is time, and they are willing to share and give it to us. And I know our last episode was one that we were really excited about having. Specifically, I want to talk more about, like, the finances of things and how that could be impactful for families or first responders.
Ashlee [00:02:06]:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, it's just been such a big theme. So clinically speaking, it's a big theme for me. I don't know if you feel the same way, Jennifer. And then just again, when we're talking about being a child of a first responder, and I Don't know, all encompassing. For real. Right.
Jennifer [00:02:21]:
His episode for me was, yeah. I mean, I think that finances do show up when people have stress and high stress things and situations. And finances can absolutely be a part of that. And so I think we always feel better when we have a plan, even if it is we don't have a scent. At least we can have a plan to maybe get two nickels that can make us feel a little less stressed. So I appreciate that.
Ashlee [00:02:44]:
And what I love about us, right, Is being able to talk about these things and then we do this back end work of, like, how can we find somebody to connect it?
Jennifer [00:02:51]:
Right.
Ashlee [00:02:52]:
You know, and I hope that, that, that our listeners are like, yes, we need more connections, tools, resources, because I know that's big for us. We don't want people to feel like we're just on here talking. We want to actually provide some help, helpful things.
Jennifer [00:03:03]:
I totally agree with that. And that's a great point as well. As I'm not the finance expert, we should not take financial advice. I'm not that financial counselor.
Ashlee [00:03:13]:
Not from me either. Not from there.
Jennifer [00:03:15]:
I love that. I did see a meme that said, I'm the number one bread loser in my family and I've never related to something.
Ashlee [00:03:24]:
Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. That is so funny. I mean, I feel that way every time I pay for my bear season tickets, that's for sure. I'm like, oh, when is my husband gonna be done with this? Oops.
Jennifer [00:03:39]:
You know, it is almost there. Like, it's fair season girl Sunday.
Ashlee [00:03:45]:
This. Well, when this airs, it'll already pass, but we will have one game under our belt. Preseason.
Jennifer [00:03:51]:
Yes. Yes, yes. I'm so excited for you that it's finally the most magical time of year for you football.
Ashlee [00:03:57]:
So I have to put this out there because it was so funny. I looked at my husband and I said, oh, my gosh, I feel like I'm coming back to life when football starts again and fall
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I think that there's the pros and cons.
I think that there's a family system and family dynamic that
happens with first responders. That instilling resiliency,
which we've talked greatly aboutwithin your kids, right?
Like is what continues to even in the midst of sometimes chaos,
because every family has the right to chaos, right?
Instilling that resiliency and instilling that if we're a good
(00:22):
first responder, right, we know that we're instilling these
proper values of respect and integrity and all these things.
And I think that's where that system comes into play because
everybody in that household pretty much upholds that, right?
And so then you go into this world when you are a child and
you that's all you know, I stillthink that there are moments
(00:46):
where I look at other people whodidn't grow up in a first
responder family and I literallylike my brain can't comprehend
how their brain right, doesn't think the way that I do like,
doesn't see it in in different like the ways that I do.
But I have to remember that thatemotional intelligence isn't
there at that extent of because they didn't have to have that,
(01:07):
because it was instilled in us at a young age to think
differently, to think more critically, to be aware of our
surroundings. Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley.
And here we are, and it's just us today.
We don't get to say special guest.
Yeah, which again, if people arefollowing along and have this
game, I don't know who am I to say, like, sorry you're missing
(01:30):
out, although you said it. We did.
But they're really, I feel like we've hit it really big with
some of these guests lately and I'm just so thankful.
Oh, great. I mean, I hope that we always
come across with such gratitude for our guests that give their
most valuable thing, right, thatwe have is time and they are
(01:51):
willing to share and give it to us.
And I know our last episode was one that we were really excited
about having. Specifically, I want to talk
more about like the finances of things and how that can be
impactful for families or first responders.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, it's just been
such a big theme. So clinically speaking, it's a
(02:11):
big theme for me. I don't know if you feel the
same way, Jennifer. And then just again, when we're
talking about being a child of afirst responder and, I don't
know, all-encompassing for real,right?
Like his episode for me was. Yeah.
I mean, I think that finances doshow up when people have stress
and high stress things and situations and finances can
(02:32):
absolutely be a part of that. And so I think we always feel
when we have a plan, even if it is we don't have a scent, at
least we can have a plan to maybe get 2 nickels that can
make us feel a little less stressed.
So. I and what I love about us,
right, is being able to talk about these things and then we
do this back end work of like, how can we find somebody to
connect it right? You know, and I hope that that
(02:53):
that our listeners are like, yes, we need more connections,
tools, resources, because I knowthat's big for us.
We don't want people to feel like we're just down here
talking. We want to actually provide some
help. Helpful thing.
I totally agree with that and that's a great point as well as
I'm not the finance expert. We should not take financial,
I'm not that financial counsellor.
Not for me either. Not for Bear.
(03:15):
I love that. I did see a meme that said I'm
the number one bread loser in myfamily and I've never related to
something so much. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
That is so funny. I mean, I feel that way every
time I pay for my bear season tickets, that's for sure.
I'm like, when is my husband gonna be done with this?
(03:38):
Oops, you know. It is almost there, like it's
bear season. On Sunday this well when this
airs it'll already pass but we will have one game under our
belt pre season. Yes, yes, I'm so excited for you
that it's finally the most magical time of year for you
football. So I have to put this out there
(03:59):
because it was so funny. I looked at my husband and I
said, Oh my gosh, I feel like I'm coming back to life when
football starts again and fall. And it's just, it makes my heart
so happy. Like I'm coming back to life.
And he stops in the car and he looks at me and he goes, can I
just share how weird that soundswhen literally everything's
dying? And I said, Oh my gosh, like
(04:19):
what, Why you gotta come at me like this?
Like what? Like And then I thought to
myself, I was a little proud that he came at me like that
because that's something my dad would do.
That's something he learned specifically from Craig Neeft.
And so I always will look at himsometimes when he finally has
his, he's not from a first responders family, right?
So our tough joking, like our like hard love was very new to
(04:43):
him, right? And so like sometimes when he
does those things and you know, I'll respond a little attitude
or something to give it back, but in my head I'm like, oh,
look who's learning that's. How you have to survive.
That's how you have to survive. Girl flat out look at him and be
like, OK, Craig neefed like thatwas that was a him thing like
(05:06):
yeah, yeah. So that's.
So I had to share because it wasjust so funny.
But I think talking back to the finances and the people we've
had on here, you know, and wanting in so many ways for us
to help right, help our listeners help the people that
we do serve. I guess I wanted to ask you a
little bit, Jennifer, because wewe haven't talked much about
this and it kind of feeds into how we got to where we got is
(05:28):
like what was your path? What made you kind of pick this
one, your career in general? But then obviously a little we
know why you went into first responder world, but how does
that evolve for you? That's a great question and it's
interesting. I wanted to ask you this
question first, but I guess I'llgo first.
Oh, I don't know. You're.
Good, you're good. I'm just like, the wheels are
(05:49):
and it was so long ago since I got out of college, which is
crazy. It's funny how those things work
out, though. I went to school and I was like,
I'm going to be a dentist. Talk about just like pulling
something out of a bag. Like I don't know why no.
You're going to say pulling teeth, but you know.
(06:10):
That's an opportunity there, didn't I?
So I remember taking some science courses and like, yeah,
the same for me. And you know, I had like
prerequisites that you had to have and I took a sociology
class and I enjoyed it. I really liked the sociology
professor that I had. He was great and enjoyed the
(06:32):
class. Then I don't know how, but I
ended up in like a psych one O 1class.
Shout out to Doctor Osborne. And I sat in that class and it
was really like, this is going to sound so hokey and like
weird, but it was really like one of those like real life,
like light bulb moments of like,oh, no, this is it.
(06:55):
And just felt like this is and what it stood for me.
I enjoy helping people. Like that is something I care
about. And sociology overwhelmed me.
Like I can't save the world. But I could say, well, I
couldn't say. But you know, you can sit with
one person and like see the change as like an individual.
(07:16):
And so I think that's what really appealed to me.
And then, you know, that was like my freshman year as my
second, my fresh one year of college.
And then I still had to go. Like, I remember I changed
education and I was like, I really like art and like I took
some art classes like basically denying what had happened in
(07:38):
terms of that. And I was like, no, it's really
psychology and stuff. And so I graduated with that and
found out really quickly with a psych degree, I could be like a
barista or work at a bank or, you know, there's just not too
much you can do without like a furthering your degree.
And I had an opportunity and worked at a home for girls.
(08:00):
I don't think you call it that anymore.
And, and it was helpful and really eye opening.
And you're kind of seeing outside of the margin children
who have been in really horrificsituations.
And that really kind of led for me to like pursue a master's
degree to find like a deeper wayin like helping those kids.
And so that's kind of where it started for me.
(08:21):
And so I do want us to have likethe sociology psychology debate
on this podcast as well. So walk me through, my wonderful
social worker, what your path was in terms of becoming a
mental health professional, especially your doctor degree.
Oof, yeah, so. I say oof.
Is that a bad reaction? I'm like, oh, so I honestly
(08:44):
like, funny enough, like right when you said that because we've
never really talked about this, like the same thing sort of
happened for me. I remember sitting in my
sociology class and I liked it, but I was like, like, this is a
lot looking at things as a wholelike that looking how about how
groups interacted and things like that.
I was like, I like it, but this isn't like a love.
(09:04):
And honestly, my story is a little deep in that, you know,
my parents were, I was older when my parents started to get
divorced. Like I was a teen and it wasn't,
I've shared on here before, likea very pretty thing.
It wasn't a very good time in everyone's lives when that
happened. But then my stepmom came into
play and she's a social worker and I started taking psychology
(09:27):
courses at NIU. And again, I can't remember.
You're real good with names. I can't remember my one
professor's name. Oh, this just came way full
circle for everybody on this podcast.
But it was one of my very first psych classes.
And he brought up Brandon Marshall, who at the time was
playing on the Bears. And the minute anybody makes a
(09:48):
connection like. That for me, I'm sold.
You don't need. Yeah, you.
Don't really need. I love that you don't remember
the professor's name but remember the football players
100% that's. How I live my life.
It's really bad. It's really bad.
And anytime someone starts to talk to me, football language or
something, like I'm like, oh, like, I get it, it's bad.
(10:10):
But he actually started talking about him and then just fed into
like talking about like the DSM and all these different things,
right? And just equating it back to
people and I remember being like, this is so cool and like
talking about how how even professional athletes can
struggle or like how this works in terms of the brain and what
(10:33):
the brain can go through. And I just, I felt so fascinated
by that that I was like, OK, I think I'm in the right spot.
I really wanted to go for marinebiology.
I'm going to be honest and learned quickly that math isn't
my thing. But still it honestly for me,
like I that caught my attention.I kept going.
But as I was going through that,there was just so much happening
at home as well. And thankfully, at that time, I
(10:54):
was a little bit older. But one thing that never kind of
wavered in my life was my stepmom and her ability to stay
so neutral. Oh, wow.
And chaos, I guess it's the bestway to put it.
Yeah. Like 1000%.
Like, was never negative, never said anything negative, never
inserted herself in a way that, you know, like, just the most
(11:16):
patience and grace I've ever metin a human.
And I remember being like, thankGod, like we have the sounding
board when when everything else isn't so well.
And I think that just inspired me to go further with social
work, really. Kind of her in so many ways.
That's beautiful. Yeah, it really is.
(11:37):
You know, it's a little tough totalk about out loud, but it is.
I mean, I would tell her that, but it is true.
Like it's, it was a very, you know, hard time in our lives and
with my parents. Like it just wasn't good.
And so to have like a, an adult there that was sound of mind
that understood that like you'reimpacting a system here, a
family system. I don't know.
It just really meant a lot to mein that time, a crucial time in
(12:00):
my life. And so I went on to social work
because of that. I definitely looked into she
does school social work. So I definitely thought at first
like maybe following in those steps and doing things and then
actually decided at first to do gerontology.
I love that population. But then it was, and I know I've
shared this before, it was that realization when life happened
(12:21):
in the world and the civil unrest started to unfold.
And it was my first time being kind of like smacked in the face
with reality. I'm going to be honest of life
and my, you know, my dad's job and feeling so anxious and
nervous for him that I started to find this like such a big
passion of like, well, how do I help and how do I make change
with first responders? And then from there just kept
(12:42):
going my doctorate's degree. Well, every.
Well, actually, maybe not everybody knows the story.
I. Don't.
Oh, OK. Well, forgive me dad.
So my doctorate's degree, 99% ofit was for myself. 1% of it was
definitely probably throw my middle finger in the air and
tell my dad to go # sand in lifebecause.
(13:06):
And maybe this is something me and my dad need to talk about on
our next episode. I know people have wanted him to
come back on, but there was a time in life that I went to a
different school and I decided to come home and I didn't like
it there. And fear took over for my dad.
And we've talked about this withfirst responders when they are
so fearful, a lot of them act out in anger because instead of
(13:28):
being vulnerable and saying what's really having them feel
their fields right, He definitely acted out anger.
And he said some some really hard things to me, one being
that I wouldn't make it anywherein life, right?
That I wouldn't succeed and thatI was going to amount to
nothing. I pretty sure what he said and
while now I know that that came from a place of fear, that
(13:50):
doctorate's degree was really toto tell him to shove it like and
now if he hears this and or he tells that story, which he does,
he will cry instantly. Sorry, I'm just really letting
it out on your bed because rightlike in his heart of hearts he
would have never wanted to say that to me, but he also just
(14:11):
didn't know how to handle the situation at that time and was
trying to get me to stay. So if I'm fearful of coming
home, I'm going to stay and thenI'm going to realize
everything's OK. Also, don't forget you create
your children. I've said that before.
So I'm just like him and I'm just a stubborn.
So my ass came home anyway y'all.
Right, that doesn't change it for me.
(14:31):
No. And so that, I mean, more or
less, I did want to go for myself.
I wanted to learn new theories, new ways to help.
How can I better help certain populations?
How can I put my research into first responders?
But there's still that 1%. Then, to be honest, that was a
proving point. Yeah, well, I appreciate your
honesty and like letting us in alittle bit of that family
(14:53):
system, that family dynamic. Family systems is a word that
mental health professional use just to describe a family and
its function. So in case people don't know
that for sure, using this Word family system, what though in
like your doctorate degree, do you feel like you really took
away like what was the next level in this path of sociology?
(15:17):
That was really helpful, especially because you're so
focused in the first responder world.
Yeah. So it's interesting you say that
because I think that degree is so much different than obviously
we think of it one way we go through it and it's completely
different. For me, we did, we were super,
super like theories based. So it was very helpful for me to
(15:39):
start connecting kind of why as a society, as a world, right?
Like why we do the things we do,but how do we look at things as
well? And so my biggest take away,
honestly, for my doctor's degree, one was confidence in
myself because I could not, you cannot pass that without tapping
into to yourself and being able to like verbalize and do the
(16:02):
research and do the presentations.
And, and it's so uncomfortable. Public speaking is not my thing,
but it forces you to do that, right.
But Jew is learning just how where we have come from in terms
of our thought process. And again, we're going to, I'm
going to throw this out there because this is if you, if
anyone reads my dissertation, like system theory was a big
(16:23):
deal, right? But where did that derive from?
Where does that come from? So I spent TTSD but ours reading
original work from, you know, like famous people and trying to
break it down and like going through back through all this
research that was done and it's silly.
Some of it's silly now where you're like, what?
(16:44):
Like why would they think that? Like, why would they do that?
And and yet if we didn't have those things wouldn't be
effective as therapist now, right?
Right. You know, so these theorists and
all these things, it was, I think that that's really kind of
what helped me. And then just learning that the
unfortunate thing in this world is that if we want to make
(17:06):
change, you do have to have a name in some way, shape or form.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
I mean, there's definitely hierarchy things that come with
higher education. Yeah.
And you're exactly right that having a doctorate degree is a
part of that change. Thanks for answering that
question. I know it was kind of random,
but was. That good?
Was that Dave? Was that even helpful?
(17:30):
I try so hard to balance my nerdy self with like,
remembering that not everybody knows what the heck I'm gonna be
talking about when I talk about these things, so I have to try
to like, bring it back down. Well, and I think that that
sometimes can be something I know, something I feel of like,
oh, these are just concepts thateverybody knows.
Because when you spend time at school reading and writing
(17:53):
papers and all that kind of thing, you think, oh, it's a
language that everybody has. And then sometimes you step back
and you're like, oh, no, it's something I like just talking
about anger. And like, you know, anger is a
response that humans like because it sometimes gives us
power and things that we feel like we have none or no control
over. And so, you know, I'd be mad at
(18:15):
somebody and punch them in the face like that gives me
something rather than say like, hey, you hurt my feelings when
you did this. You know, that's sometimes
extremely hard, extremely hard to do that.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too like growing up
the way that I did, that we did,right.
We have spoken about the abilityto see our parents give back.
(18:38):
So I think too, of course, goinginto this degree as a social
worker is like, want to help? Right.
But how do I help? You know, I think it's
interesting that you bring that up and I think that is something
we wanted to talk a little bit about on this episode, which is,
I know when I went to school andthe question of what I want to
be when I grow up, there had to be something about meaning.
(19:01):
Like meaning was important to mein terms of choosing a career,
you know, and and that doesn't discount people that do all
kinds of jobs. And we we need all of that in
our society for sure. But I know for myself, like I
wanted something that's feels a higher meaning.
And I think sometimes we talk about this with our first
(19:21):
responders, like having a calling.
That's, that's a little bit of my experience.
And, and Doctor Osborne's psychology one O 1 class is just
feeling again, like, oh, like I this would be giving back.
This would be meaningful to me. And I feel like I do meet a lot
of first responder kiddos that, you know, there is something
(19:44):
about giving back in their careers.
I think that's why in some ways you see a lot of like
firefighting families, you know,like.
Yeah. Generation like 3 generationals,
the same with our law enforcement families and things
like that too. I think you see that or you
know, the, the dad was a state trooper and the kiddo is a
(20:09):
dispatcher. Like you just see, I think that
within families and I'm going toput you on the spot like is
there a family system there? You know, that's happening in
these first responder families? I don't know if you have that
answer. To that but.
I mean, absolutely right. And I, I'm gonna be transparent.
I, I am always transparent on here sometimes, right?
(20:32):
Like I feel bad because I feel like I never want.
Obviously our biggest goal here is to, we love our first
responders. And so there is some honesty and
some truth to that. There can be some very
dysfunctional systems within ourfamilies pertaining to our first
responders, right? And so I think that was
interesting about that is I think that there's the pros and
(20:53):
cons. I think that there's a family
system and family dynamic that happens with first responders,
that instilling resiliency, which we've talked greatly about
within your kids, right? Like is what continues to even
in the midst of sometimes chaos,because every family has the
right to chaos, right? Instilling that resiliency and
instilling that if we're good first responder, right?
(21:16):
We know that we're it's stealingthese proper values of respect
and integrity and all these things.
And I think that's where that system comes into play because
everybody in that household pretty much upholds that, right?
And so then you go into this world when you are a child and
you that's all you know, I stillthink that there are moments
(21:38):
where I look at other people whodidn't grow up in a first
responder family and I literallylike my brain can't comprehend
how their brain right, doesn't think the way that I do like,
doesn't see it in in different like the ways that I do.
But I have to remember that thatemotional intelligence isn't
there at that extent of because they didn't have to have that,
(22:00):
because it was instilled in us at a young age to think
differently, to think more critically, to be aware of our
surroundings too, you know, like.
And so has to. Be very different, right?
And so I definitely feel like that family system plays a huge
impact into why people will become a first responder if not
in the helping profession. Let's talk about how many of us
(22:22):
turn into nurses, right? Coming.
Yeah, like coming from a first responders family too, right.
And then also so just this notion of how do I figure out
where I came from? And I think we all do that
whether we're first responder families or not, right?
Of like if I did go through things in childhood, which we
all do, I think one of my stepmoms most famous quotes
(22:45):
honestly is because she's been asocial worker.
Now she's going on her 29th yearof school.
Social work is like we are all trying to undo the things our
parents did to us to an extent, right?
And so you're looking, you're always trying to figure that
out. And I think that also guides it
as well, like just trying to figure out what life was like
and why it was like that way. And you either fall into it in
that positive role or sometimes it can be a negative so.
(23:07):
Well, I appreciate you sharing your experience and the the
positives of it and that, you know, there's still that you and
your dad are in dialogue and communicating about those things
too. Like, you know, like that's a
bummer that there was this conflict, but look what came of
it, you know, and it's like really positive way.
And I mean, that's just such a resilient factor for sure.
(23:31):
Yeah, and I have to be honest, right?
Like I've obviously very much soimmersed myself into this world
and now I can 100% see where it all came from with him, right?
Do I 100% agree that it was still the correct approach in
life when it comes to parenting?No, but there is no handbook.
We've said that 100 times to parenting.
(23:53):
And so when we are so when our brains are so just focused in on
these aspects of life, I in terms of being a first responder
and following all these rules and regulations that they do
right, like it's, it's very hardfor them to come home and turn
that off and look at their children in a different way.
I would agree with that for sure.
(24:14):
And yeah, it can be really hard to navigate that and manage that
feedback to say I feel like. I'm being an epic nerd on this
episode where I'm. I'm about.
To just like spewing out and I can get very like how do I put
this politically correct and. I mean, I think actually what's
(24:35):
great about you is that you justput things the correct way, so.
Sure, try, sure try. It's hard to articulate all the
time like where that all stones,but I'm so passionate and when I
get passionate, I get like. I have to say no.
Like. You know, I'm a, I'm an active
parent right now and it is a little bit of like, what will I
(24:58):
do today that he'll be talking to his therapist about one day.
I mean, you're, you are going tojust fumble through it and make
mistakes all the way. And the goal, though, is I
think, I hope this is OK to say.And if I'm stepping across the
line, please let me know. But like, I mean, clearly you
and your dad, like, again, mistakes are made as a parent is
(25:20):
to come back and say, you know, mistakes were made and, and for
you as a kid to say that was still a mistake.
I think that's important too. I think when I'm a therapist, at
times I have people walk in with, you know, what your your
mom, your stepmom says in terms of like, we're just trying to
unpack some of the things that happened to us as kiddos and
(25:42):
that like, wanting to get to that place of like, forgiving
our parent and they did the bestthey can.
And that's a great place to be. But it has to acknowledge like
that something was wrong, like some mistake was made.
Yeah. And I think that that's
important. I think I'm stumbling my way
through what I'm trying to say. No.
(26:03):
I think that sounds great because there's so much truth.
And I express this when I I do give a presentation.
I know I've said that before on what it was like for me to be a
child of a first responder, but I express that in there so
often. I'm like it is OK as a parent to
say I'm sorry. Yep.
And just saying, I'm sorry, alone, literally.
Sometimes that's all we want to hear, right.
(26:25):
You know, And there's a lot of power in that.
They're really different. Yeah.
Right. Like, not to be afraid to
actually say that as a parent, right.
Like I always say, would have probably cleared up a lot.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely understand
that experience too, for sure. And, and obviously we've talked
(26:45):
a lot about that too, just that like authoritarian my way or the
highway kind of stuff. And it's just like, Oh no, like
we're a system, right? Like we all have a role to play
here. And, you know, I think we enjoy
a bit of a democracy over a dictatorship.
(27:07):
Yes, yeah. And I will say like there's
still moments where my dad struggles with that.
I got he does, right. Like no, no, no, it's my way.
Like no, no, no, I'm right. Like, but he has grown so much
in that in that area and I don'tsometimes I'm like, it was that
my stepmom, I think a little bitbecause she doesn't allow him to
(27:29):
get away with it, right? But she can also talk to him
because of her skill set in a way that's helpful for him to
understand it and see it differently.
But also I got to give him credit because there's some
truth to like he doesn't have tochange, but he has recognized
like, I don't have to be so hardlike I am in retirement.
I don't have to be so hard. I can be more soft and loving
(27:49):
and open. And that's not a bad thing
either. So.
Well, and I, I don't know, I think there's also that dynamic
of when you're an adult, but you're still your parents child.
Like that's something that can be, maybe this is a different
episode, but you know that that place is like, no, like you're
(28:10):
not making decisions for me. I make my decisions now, you
know, and I, I want your supportin those decisions.
Like I'll be really honest aboutthat.
And now I can say I understand that.
Like I'm not supported on every decision because maybe that
wasn't the best decision for me.But you know, sometimes you have
to learn that on your own, right?
(28:31):
Yes, I everything you're saying right now, I'm like, man, how
true, how true, because again, right when and that's how you
know, then it's I always say this too.
Your kids love you. They love you right when we're
young and speaks volume, that's still to this day.
I do that. I'll seek that validation of
wanting to make the right choices from him, right, like
(28:54):
from my dad, but there is so much truth to that dynamic shift
of like, well, I am, I am there.I'm like the dad, but I'm also
now, yeah, having to let them make those choices.
Yeah, I had a pretty cool meeting with somebody in Dallas
and like, I mean, aside from my husband, like the first person I
(29:17):
wanted to share was my dad. So I mean, I think that there is
still. All the time. 40s you know, and
that was important to me. So I definitely think that there
is something to be said for that.
And again, like I hope actually our conversation, you know, it's
about parenting and kids, but like we're both grown-ups and we
(29:38):
still have these relationships with our first responder
parents. And I think it's like, you know,
how do you make it through the mistakes, you know, and still
have a relationship and 'cause, you know, you and I have talked
about this before, this sad situation of first responder
parents that are estranged from their children.
(29:59):
Like, you know, like you're gonna be able to like work
through these things and make iton the other side for sure.
And what would you feel if I shot back at you that maybe some
of that comes from those first responder parents showing more
vulnerability to their children too?
I I definitely think that's partof it.
I don't know if that's my dynamic completely.
(30:21):
Yeah, I think I probably did more of the work than somebody
else. No, no, I know that's what I
mean. Like, I know that like now, like
if kids, if children of first responders are listening, if
you're a parent and you're a first responder listening, like
isn't there so much to be said about just like that
vulnerability piece as well of like being vulnerable with your
kids? Yeah, knowing that emotions are
(30:43):
OK, allowing them to be vulnerable with you, rather than
shutting it down and saying, hey, go rub some dirt on that.
Right, right, right. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I misunderstood.
Absolutely. No, you're OK.
We're just shooting back and forth right now.
So I put you on the spot that wasn't and that was literally
because my brain was like, of course goes 100.
And I'm like, huh, like Speakingof like, what about
(31:06):
vulnerability up in here? Like.
Yeah, I don't think that's a hard thing to to navigate.
Like when is it appropriate to be vulnerable?
And then obviously first responding careers like you're
taught all the things to not be.So I get it for sure, yeah.
(31:27):
Yeah, and I think too, like if children of first responders are
listening, which we hope they are just you're not alone in all
that. Absolutely.
There's so many different dynamics, there's so many
frustrations. There's there is looking at
other kids and being like, how come your life is much more
flexible than mine? Exactly what do you mean?
Like you got to go to Disney andnot FOP convention for summer
(31:50):
vacation? I don't understand.
Yeah, yeah, mine is still. I know I've said this before but
mine is still like what do you mean?
Or maybe I haven't said it on here I'm not sure.
But as silly as this is, what doyou mean?
You can call your dad dude and he doesn't get mad at you like.
Oh my gosh, I could not. Like that's not even in like an
(32:11):
imaginary. Exactly.
Yeah, oh, like in the still 32 and in my head I could see his
face. It was one time one off.
I learned a lesson, right? Those eyebrows turned in and his
exact statement was I am not your dude.
And I was like, oh God, you do not say that.
He is you. Know but then my friends would
(32:33):
say it all the time right and I would be like get it why can't I
say that like and it's so it's as little as that when you're a
child of a first responder that you pick up on all these
different things where you're just.
Absolutely. You know, it's normal and it's
normal to be sometimes angry with your parents and they're
strict rules, but it's also thistrust in that as you grow.
(32:54):
Yeah. Also learn that there was a lot
of beauty in the way you grow upas.
Well, you know, and to, like bring us back a little bit, I
think that's that whole thing about career paths and the
resiliency of first responder kids and, you know, the choices
we make. And I think, you know, we we
come on and we talk about our mental health backgrounds.
And I just thought it was nice for us to maybe talk a little
(33:15):
bit of our origin stories in terms of like, how do we get on
these paths and didn't become first responders.
Yeah. Yeah, I think I always laugh now
because because I work with so many and I do so much so
involved, right that I'm like, Idon't have the as hot as the
sounds. I have the patients in the world
(33:36):
in this this office space that Ihave for therapy.
But there is no way in heck you're catching me out there
trying to implement the law withsome of these folks.
I'm like my patients would be zero to 100.
I would be fired in two seconds.I cannot be a first responder
like I cannot. Use aggressive force on your
(33:58):
first. Girl, they would be like, ma'am,
this is not for I just don't I so odd to me, but it's so funny
too. Like I watch obviously, like on
patrol live. We love Rizzo, right?
Like shout out to them, all of them on there.
And I'm like, they're not, I don't have the patience for
that. We're not doing that.
(34:18):
I laugh all the time. I'm like, this is exactly why I
couldn't become a first responder.
Because interestingly enough, they have all the patience in
the world on the street. But maybe that's why they didn't
have it when they came home. Yeah.
I mean, I think about that with like nursing, like I would be
the worst nurse. I'm like, I'm sorry you don't
feel well, Please go away and come back when you're better.
(34:39):
Like no patience for that. So we all have our strengths and
our opportunities, that's for sure.
That is for sure. Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I feel like this episode is a little bit of a wild card,
but I love it. As it always is when it's just
you and I and no special guest And yeah, but.
(34:59):
I also, I also love it because Ifeel like it challenges our
listeners. Yeah, don't listen, right?
Listen and pull something. Yeah.
Like, isn't that the beauty of learning?
Yeah, you can edit this out, butI'm like, can we have a special
guest? Jennifer, you're chef mom on
sometime. Yeah, OK.
No pressure. I love it.
(35:23):
Ashleys before, so we could definitely have two Jennifer's,
it would be okay. I mean, absolutely, it's not my
well, there are a long Jennifer's in this world and
that is. But that sounds like it's not my
fault that my parents made me the most common name in America.
But yeah, no, there are quite a few Jennifer's too.
Just a couple, just a couple. Well, I think that we do have,
(35:46):
we'll just say it out now that we do have some cool guests,
cool, they're on a different guests lined up to come back on.
And we still are always open forpeople to message us, share
their stories, want to come on, share our message, and of
course, anything they want us totalk about on here.
Absolutely, and we just always appreciate our listeners.
(36:08):
Yes. And so never forget that when
the call hits home, Jennifer andI are here for you.
Thank you. Have a good one.
I think that there's the pros and cons.
I think that there's a family system and family dynamic that
happens with first responders. That instilling resiliency,
which we've talked greatly aboutwithin your kids, right?
Like is what continues to even in the midst of sometimes chaos,
because every family has the right to chaos, right?
Instilling that resiliency and instilling that if we're a good
(00:22):
first responder, right, we know that we're instilling these
proper values of respect and integrity and all these things.
And I think that's where that system comes into play because
everybody in that household pretty much upholds that, right?
And so then you go into this world when you are a child and
you that's all you know, I stillthink that there are moments
(00:46):
where I look at other people whodidn't grow up in a first
responder family and I literallylike my brain can't comprehend
how their brain right, doesn't think the way that I do like,
doesn't see it in in different like the ways that I do.
But I have to remember that thatemotional intelligence isn't
there at that extent of because they didn't have to have that,
(01:07):
because it was instilled in us at a young age to think
differently, to think more critically, to be aware of our
surroundings. Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley.
And here we are, and it's just us today.
We don't get to say special guest.
Yeah, which again, if people arefollowing along and have this
game, I don't know who am I to say, like, sorry you're missing
(01:30):
out, although you said it. We did.
But they're really, I feel like we've hit it really big with
some of these guests lately and I'm just so thankful.
Oh, great. I mean, I hope that we always
come across with such gratitude for our guests that give their
most valuable thing, right, thatwe have is time and they are
(01:51):
willing to share and give it to us.
And I know our last episode was one that we were really excited
about having. Specifically, I want to talk
more about like the finances of things and how that can be
impactful for families or first responders.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, it's just been
such a big theme. So clinically speaking, it's a
(02:11):
big theme for me. I don't know if you feel the
same way, Jennifer. And then just again, when we're
talking about being a child of afirst responder and, I don't
know, all-encompassing for real,right?
Like his episode for me was. Yeah.
I mean, I think that finances doshow up when people have stress
and high stress things and situations and finances can
(02:32):
absolutely be a part of that. And so I think we always feel
when we have a plan, even if it is we don't have a scent, at
least we can have a plan to maybe get 2 nickels that can
make us feel a little less stressed.
So. I and what I love about us,
right, is being able to talk about these things and then we
do this back end work of like, how can we find somebody to
connect it right? You know, and I hope that that
(02:53):
that our listeners are like, yes, we need more connections,
tools, resources, because I knowthat's big for us.
We don't want people to feel like we're just down here
talking. We want to actually provide some
help. Helpful thing.
I totally agree with that and that's a great point as well as
I'm not the finance expert. We should not take financial,
I'm not that financial counsellor.
Not for me either. Not for Bear.
(03:15):
I love that. I did see a meme that said I'm
the number one bread loser in myfamily and I've never related to
something so much. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
That is so funny. I mean, I feel that way every
time I pay for my bear season tickets, that's for sure.
I'm like, when is my husband gonna be done with this?
(03:38):
Oops, you know. It is almost there, like it's
bear season. On Sunday this well when this
airs it'll already pass but we will have one game under our
belt pre season. Yes, yes, I'm so excited for you
that it's finally the most magical time of year for you
football. So I have to put this out there
(03:59):
because it was so funny. I looked at my husband and I
said, Oh my gosh, I feel like I'm coming back to life when
football starts again and fall. And it's just, it makes my heart
so happy. Like I'm coming back to life.
And he stops in the car and he looks at me and he goes, can I
just share how weird that soundswhen literally everything's
dying? And I said, Oh my gosh, like
(04:19):
what, Why you gotta come at me like this?
Like what? Like And then I thought to
myself, I was a little proud that he came at me like that
because that's something my dad would do.
That's something he learned specifically from Craig Neeft.
And so I always will look at himsometimes when he finally has
his, he's not from a first responders family, right?
So our tough joking, like our like hard love was very new to
(04:43):
him, right? And so like sometimes when he
does those things and you know, I'll respond a little attitude
or something to give it back, but in my head I'm like, oh,
look who's learning that's. How you have to survive.
That's how you have to survive. Girl flat out look at him and be
like, OK, Craig neefed like thatwas that was a him thing like
(05:06):
yeah, yeah. So that's.
So I had to share because it wasjust so funny.
But I think talking back to the finances and the people we've
had on here, you know, and wanting in so many ways for us
to help right, help our listeners help the people that
we do serve. I guess I wanted to ask you a
little bit, Jennifer, because wewe haven't talked much about
this and it kind of feeds into how we got to where we got is
(05:28):
like what was your path? What made you kind of pick this
one, your career in general? But then obviously a little we
know why you went into first responder world, but how does
that evolve for you? That's a great question and it's
interesting. I wanted to ask you this
question first, but I guess I'llgo first.
Oh, I don't know. You're.
Good, you're good. I'm just like, the wheels are
(05:49):
and it was so long ago since I got out of college, which is
crazy. It's funny how those things work
out, though. I went to school and I was like,
I'm going to be a dentist. Talk about just like pulling
something out of a bag. Like I don't know why no.
You're going to say pulling teeth, but you know.
(06:10):
That's an opportunity there, didn't I?
So I remember taking some science courses and like, yeah,
the same for me. And you know, I had like
prerequisites that you had to have and I took a sociology
class and I enjoyed it. I really liked the sociology
professor that I had. He was great and enjoyed the
(06:32):
class. Then I don't know how, but I
ended up in like a psych one O 1class.
Shout out to Doctor Osborne. And I sat in that class and it
was really like, this is going to sound so hokey and like
weird, but it was really like one of those like real life,
like light bulb moments of like,oh, no, this is it.
(06:55):
And just felt like this is and what it stood for me.
I enjoy helping people. Like that is something I care
about. And sociology overwhelmed me.
Like I can't save the world. But I could say, well, I
couldn't say. But you know, you can sit with
one person and like see the change as like an individual.
(07:16):
And so I think that's what really appealed to me.
And then, you know, that was like my freshman year as my
second, my fresh one year of college.
And then I still had to go. Like, I remember I changed
education and I was like, I really like art and like I took
some art classes like basically denying what had happened in
(07:38):
terms of that. And I was like, no, it's really
psychology and stuff. And so I graduated with that and
found out really quickly with a psych degree, I could be like a
barista or work at a bank or, you know, there's just not too
much you can do without like a furthering your degree.
And I had an opportunity and worked at a home for girls.
(08:00):
I don't think you call it that anymore.
And, and it was helpful and really eye opening.
And you're kind of seeing outside of the margin children
who have been in really horrificsituations.
And that really kind of led for me to like pursue a master's
degree to find like a deeper wayin like helping those kids.
And so that's kind of where it started for me.
(08:21):
And so I do want us to have likethe sociology psychology debate
on this podcast as well. So walk me through, my wonderful
social worker, what your path was in terms of becoming a
mental health professional, especially your doctor degree.
Oof, yeah, so. I say oof.
Is that a bad reaction? I'm like, oh, so I honestly
(08:44):
like, funny enough, like right when you said that because we've
never really talked about this, like the same thing sort of
happened for me. I remember sitting in my
sociology class and I liked it, but I was like, like, this is a
lot looking at things as a wholelike that looking how about how
groups interacted and things like that.
I was like, I like it, but this isn't like a love.
(09:04):
And honestly, my story is a little deep in that, you know,
my parents were, I was older when my parents started to get
divorced. Like I was a teen and it wasn't,
I've shared on here before, likea very pretty thing.
It wasn't a very good time in everyone's lives when that
happened. But then my stepmom came into
play and she's a social worker and I started taking psychology
(09:27):
courses at NIU. And again, I can't remember.
You're real good with names. I can't remember my one
professor's name. Oh, this just came way full
circle for everybody on this podcast.
But it was one of my very first psych classes.
And he brought up Brandon Marshall, who at the time was
playing on the Bears. And the minute anybody makes a
(09:48):
connection like. That for me, I'm sold.
You don't need. Yeah, you.
Don't really need. I love that you don't remember
the professor's name but remember the football players
100% that's. How I live my life.
It's really bad. It's really bad.
And anytime someone starts to talk to me, football language or
something, like I'm like, oh, like, I get it, it's bad.
(10:10):
But he actually started talking about him and then just fed into
like talking about like the DSM and all these different things,
right? And just equating it back to
people and I remember being like, this is so cool and like
talking about how how even professional athletes can
struggle or like how this works in terms of the brain and what
(10:33):
the brain can go through. And I just, I felt so fascinated
by that that I was like, OK, I think I'm in the right spot.
I really wanted to go for marinebiology.
I'm going to be honest and learned quickly that math isn't
my thing. But still it honestly for me,
like I that caught my attention.I kept going.
But as I was going through that,there was just so much happening
at home as well. And thankfully, at that time, I
(10:54):
was a little bit older. But one thing that never kind of
wavered in my life was my stepmom and her ability to stay
so neutral. Oh, wow.
And chaos, I guess it's the bestway to put it.
Yeah. Like 1000%.
Like, was never negative, never said anything negative, never
inserted herself in a way that, you know, like, just the most
(11:16):
patience and grace I've ever metin a human.
And I remember being like, thankGod, like we have the sounding
board when when everything else isn't so well.
And I think that just inspired me to go further with social
work, really. Kind of her in so many ways.
That's beautiful. Yeah, it really is.
(11:37):
You know, it's a little tough totalk about out loud, but it is.
I mean, I would tell her that, but it is true.
Like it's, it was a very, you know, hard time in our lives and
with my parents. Like it just wasn't good.
And so to have like a, an adult there that was sound of mind
that understood that like you'reimpacting a system here, a
family system. I don't know.
It just really meant a lot to mein that time, a crucial time in
(12:00):
my life. And so I went on to social work
because of that. I definitely looked into she
does school social work. So I definitely thought at first
like maybe following in those steps and doing things and then
actually decided at first to do gerontology.
I love that population. But then it was, and I know I've
shared this before, it was that realization when life happened
(12:21):
in the world and the civil unrest started to unfold.
And it was my first time being kind of like smacked in the face
with reality. I'm going to be honest of life
and my, you know, my dad's job and feeling so anxious and
nervous for him that I started to find this like such a big
passion of like, well, how do I help and how do I make change
with first responders? And then from there just kept
(12:42):
going my doctorate's degree. Well, every.
Well, actually, maybe not everybody knows the story.
I. Don't.
Oh, OK. Well, forgive me dad.
So my doctorate's degree, 99% ofit was for myself. 1% of it was
definitely probably throw my middle finger in the air and
tell my dad to go # sand in lifebecause.
(13:06):
And maybe this is something me and my dad need to talk about on
our next episode. I know people have wanted him to
come back on, but there was a time in life that I went to a
different school and I decided to come home and I didn't like
it there. And fear took over for my dad.
And we've talked about this withfirst responders when they are
so fearful, a lot of them act out in anger because instead of
(13:28):
being vulnerable and saying what's really having them feel
their fields right, He definitely acted out anger.
And he said some some really hard things to me, one being
that I wouldn't make it anywherein life, right?
That I wouldn't succeed and thatI was going to amount to
nothing. I pretty sure what he said and
while now I know that that came from a place of fear, that
(13:50):
doctorate's degree was really toto tell him to shove it like and
now if he hears this and or he tells that story, which he does,
he will cry instantly. Sorry, I'm just really letting
it out on your bed because rightlike in his heart of hearts he
would have never wanted to say that to me, but he also just
(14:11):
didn't know how to handle the situation at that time and was
trying to get me to stay. So if I'm fearful of coming
home, I'm going to stay and thenI'm going to realize
everything's OK. Also, don't forget you create
your children. I've said that before.
So I'm just like him and I'm just a stubborn.
So my ass came home anyway y'all.
Right, that doesn't change it for me.
(14:31):
No. And so that, I mean, more or
less, I did want to go for myself.
I wanted to learn new theories, new ways to help.
How can I better help certain populations?
How can I put my research into first responders?
But there's still that 1%. Then, to be honest, that was a
proving point. Yeah, well, I appreciate your
honesty and like letting us in alittle bit of that family
(14:53):
system, that family dynamic. Family systems is a word that
mental health professional use just to describe a family and
its function. So in case people don't know
that for sure, using this Word family system, what though in
like your doctorate degree, do you feel like you really took
away like what was the next level in this path of sociology?
(15:17):
That was really helpful, especially because you're so
focused in the first responder world.
Yeah. So it's interesting you say that
because I think that degree is so much different than obviously
we think of it one way we go through it and it's completely
different. For me, we did, we were super,
super like theories based. So it was very helpful for me to
(15:39):
start connecting kind of why as a society, as a world, right?
Like why we do the things we do,but how do we look at things as
well? And so my biggest take away,
honestly, for my doctor's degree, one was confidence in
myself because I could not, you cannot pass that without tapping
into to yourself and being able to like verbalize and do the
(16:02):
research and do the presentations.
And, and it's so uncomfortable. Public speaking is not my thing,
but it forces you to do that, right.
But Jew is learning just how where we have come from in terms
of our thought process. And again, we're going to, I'm
going to throw this out there because this is if you, if
anyone reads my dissertation, like system theory was a big
(16:23):
deal, right? But where did that derive from?
Where does that come from? So I spent TTSD but ours reading
original work from, you know, like famous people and trying to
break it down and like going through back through all this
research that was done and it's silly.
Some of it's silly now where you're like, what?
(16:44):
Like why would they think that? Like, why would they do that?
And and yet if we didn't have those things wouldn't be
effective as therapist now, right?
Right. You know, so these theorists and
all these things, it was, I think that that's really kind of
what helped me. And then just learning that the
unfortunate thing in this world is that if we want to make
(17:06):
change, you do have to have a name in some way, shape or form.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
I mean, there's definitely hierarchy things that come with
higher education. Yeah.
And you're exactly right that having a doctorate degree is a
part of that change. Thanks for answering that
question. I know it was kind of random,
but was. That good?
Was that Dave? Was that even helpful?
(17:30):
I try so hard to balance my nerdy self with like,
remembering that not everybody knows what the heck I'm gonna be
talking about when I talk about these things, so I have to try
to like, bring it back down. Well, and I think that that
sometimes can be something I know, something I feel of like,
oh, these are just concepts thateverybody knows.
Because when you spend time at school reading and writing
(17:53):
papers and all that kind of thing, you think, oh, it's a
language that everybody has. And then sometimes you step back
and you're like, oh, no, it's something I like just talking
about anger. And like, you know, anger is a
response that humans like because it sometimes gives us
power and things that we feel like we have none or no control
over. And so, you know, I'd be mad at
(18:15):
somebody and punch them in the face like that gives me
something rather than say like, hey, you hurt my feelings when
you did this. You know, that's sometimes
extremely hard, extremely hard to do that.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think too like growing up
the way that I did, that we did,right.
We have spoken about the abilityto see our parents give back.
(18:38):
So I think too, of course, goinginto this degree as a social
worker is like, want to help? Right.
But how do I help? You know, I think it's
interesting that you bring that up and I think that is something
we wanted to talk a little bit about on this episode, which is,
I know when I went to school andthe question of what I want to
be when I grow up, there had to be something about meaning.
(19:01):
Like meaning was important to mein terms of choosing a career,
you know, and and that doesn't discount people that do all
kinds of jobs. And we we need all of that in
our society for sure. But I know for myself, like I
wanted something that's feels a higher meaning.
And I think sometimes we talk about this with our first
(19:21):
responders, like having a calling.
That's, that's a little bit of my experience.
And, and Doctor Osborne's psychology one O 1 class is just
feeling again, like, oh, like I this would be giving back.
This would be meaningful to me. And I feel like I do meet a lot
of first responder kiddos that, you know, there is something
(19:44):
about giving back in their careers.
I think that's why in some ways you see a lot of like
firefighting families, you know,like.
Yeah. Generation like 3 generationals,
the same with our law enforcement families and things
like that too. I think you see that or you
know, the, the dad was a state trooper and the kiddo is a
(20:09):
dispatcher. Like you just see, I think that
within families and I'm going toput you on the spot like is
there a family system there? You know, that's happening in
these first responder families? I don't know if you have that
answer. To that but.
I mean, absolutely right. And I, I'm gonna be transparent.
I, I am always transparent on here sometimes, right?
(20:32):
Like I feel bad because I feel like I never want.
Obviously our biggest goal here is to, we love our first
responders. And so there is some honesty and
some truth to that. There can be some very
dysfunctional systems within ourfamilies pertaining to our first
responders, right? And so I think that was
interesting about that is I think that there's the pros and
(20:53):
cons. I think that there's a family
system and family dynamic that happens with first responders,
that instilling resiliency, which we've talked greatly about
within your kids, right? Like is what continues to even
in the midst of sometimes chaos,because every family has the
right to chaos, right? Instilling that resiliency and
instilling that if we're good first responder, right?
(21:16):
We know that we're it's stealingthese proper values of respect
and integrity and all these things.
And I think that's where that system comes into play because
everybody in that household pretty much upholds that, right?
And so then you go into this world when you are a child and
you that's all you know, I stillthink that there are moments
(21:38):
where I look at other people whodidn't grow up in a first
responder family and I literallylike my brain can't comprehend
how their brain right, doesn't think the way that I do like,
doesn't see it in in different like the ways that I do.
But I have to remember that thatemotional intelligence isn't
there at that extent of because they didn't have to have that,
(22:00):
because it was instilled in us at a young age to think
differently, to think more critically, to be aware of our
surroundings too, you know, like.
And so has to. Be very different, right?
And so I definitely feel like that family system plays a huge
impact into why people will become a first responder if not
in the helping profession. Let's talk about how many of us
(22:22):
turn into nurses, right? Coming.
Yeah, like coming from a first responders family too, right.
And then also so just this notion of how do I figure out
where I came from? And I think we all do that
whether we're first responder families or not, right?
Of like if I did go through things in childhood, which we
all do, I think one of my stepmoms most famous quotes
(22:45):
honestly is because she's been asocial worker.
Now she's going on her 29th yearof school.
Social work is like we are all trying to undo the things our
parents did to us to an extent, right?
And so you're looking, you're always trying to figure that
out. And I think that also guides it
as well, like just trying to figure out what life was like
and why it was like that way. And you either fall into it in
that positive role or sometimes it can be a negative so.
(23:07):
Well, I appreciate you sharing your experience and the the
positives of it and that, you know, there's still that you and
your dad are in dialogue and communicating about those things
too. Like, you know, like that's a
bummer that there was this conflict, but look what came of
it, you know, and it's like really positive way.
And I mean, that's just such a resilient factor for sure.
(23:31):
Yeah, and I have to be honest, right?
Like I've obviously very much soimmersed myself into this world
and now I can 100% see where it all came from with him, right?
Do I 100% agree that it was still the correct approach in
life when it comes to parenting?No, but there is no handbook.
We've said that 100 times to parenting.
(23:53):
And so when we are so when our brains are so just focused in on
these aspects of life, I in terms of being a first responder
and following all these rules and regulations that they do
right, like it's, it's very hardfor them to come home and turn
that off and look at their children in a different way.
I would agree with that for sure.
(24:14):
And yeah, it can be really hard to navigate that and manage that
feedback to say I feel like. I'm being an epic nerd on this
episode where I'm. I'm about.
To just like spewing out and I can get very like how do I put
this politically correct and. I mean, I think actually what's
(24:35):
great about you is that you justput things the correct way, so.
Sure, try, sure try. It's hard to articulate all the
time like where that all stones,but I'm so passionate and when I
get passionate, I get like. I have to say no.
Like. You know, I'm a, I'm an active
parent right now and it is a little bit of like, what will I
(24:58):
do today that he'll be talking to his therapist about one day.
I mean, you're, you are going tojust fumble through it and make
mistakes all the way. And the goal, though, is I
think, I hope this is OK to say.And if I'm stepping across the
line, please let me know. But like, I mean, clearly you
and your dad, like, again, mistakes are made as a parent is
(25:20):
to come back and say, you know, mistakes were made and, and for
you as a kid to say that was still a mistake.
I think that's important too. I think when I'm a therapist, at
times I have people walk in with, you know, what your your
mom, your stepmom says in terms of like, we're just trying to
unpack some of the things that happened to us as kiddos and
(25:42):
that like, wanting to get to that place of like, forgiving
our parent and they did the bestthey can.
And that's a great place to be. But it has to acknowledge like
that something was wrong, like some mistake was made.
Yeah. And I think that that's
important. I think I'm stumbling my way
through what I'm trying to say. No.
(26:03):
I think that sounds great because there's so much truth.
And I express this when I I do give a presentation.
I know I've said that before on what it was like for me to be a
child of a first responder, but I express that in there so
often. I'm like it is OK as a parent to
say I'm sorry. Yep.
And just saying, I'm sorry, alone, literally.
Sometimes that's all we want to hear, right.
(26:25):
You know, And there's a lot of power in that.
They're really different. Yeah.
Right. Like, not to be afraid to
actually say that as a parent, right.
Like I always say, would have probably cleared up a lot.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely understand
that experience too, for sure. And, and obviously we've talked
(26:45):
a lot about that too, just that like authoritarian my way or the
highway kind of stuff. And it's just like, Oh no, like
we're a system, right? Like we all have a role to play
here. And, you know, I think we enjoy
a bit of a democracy over a dictatorship.
(27:07):
Yes, yeah. And I will say like there's
still moments where my dad struggles with that.
I got he does, right. Like no, no, no, it's my way.
Like no, no, no, I'm right. Like, but he has grown so much
in that in that area and I don'tsometimes I'm like, it was that
my stepmom, I think a little bitbecause she doesn't allow him to
(27:29):
get away with it, right? But she can also talk to him
because of her skill set in a way that's helpful for him to
understand it and see it differently.
But also I got to give him credit because there's some
truth to like he doesn't have tochange, but he has recognized
like, I don't have to be so hardlike I am in retirement.
I don't have to be so hard. I can be more soft and loving
(27:49):
and open. And that's not a bad thing
either. So.
Well, and I, I don't know, I think there's also that dynamic
of when you're an adult, but you're still your parents child.
Like that's something that can be, maybe this is a different
episode, but you know that that place is like, no, like you're
(28:10):
not making decisions for me. I make my decisions now, you
know, and I, I want your supportin those decisions.
Like I'll be really honest aboutthat.
And now I can say I understand that.
Like I'm not supported on every decision because maybe that
wasn't the best decision for me.But you know, sometimes you have
to learn that on your own, right?
(28:31):
Yes, I everything you're saying right now, I'm like, man, how
true, how true, because again, right when and that's how you
know, then it's I always say this too.
Your kids love you. They love you right when we're
young and speaks volume, that's still to this day.
I do that. I'll seek that validation of
wanting to make the right choices from him, right, like
(28:54):
from my dad, but there is so much truth to that dynamic shift
of like, well, I am, I am there.I'm like the dad, but I'm also
now, yeah, having to let them make those choices.
Yeah, I had a pretty cool meeting with somebody in Dallas
and like, I mean, aside from my husband, like the first person I
(29:17):
wanted to share was my dad. So I mean, I think that there is
still. All the time. 40s you know, and
that was important to me. So I definitely think that there
is something to be said for that.
And again, like I hope actually our conversation, you know, it's
about parenting and kids, but like we're both grown-ups and we
(29:38):
still have these relationships with our first responder
parents. And I think it's like, you know,
how do you make it through the mistakes, you know, and still
have a relationship and 'cause, you know, you and I have talked
about this before, this sad situation of first responder
parents that are estranged from their children.
(29:59):
Like, you know, like you're gonna be able to like work
through these things and make iton the other side for sure.
And what would you feel if I shot back at you that maybe some
of that comes from those first responder parents showing more
vulnerability to their children too?
I I definitely think that's partof it.
I don't know if that's my dynamic completely.
(30:21):
Yeah, I think I probably did more of the work than somebody
else. No, no, I know that's what I
mean. Like, I know that like now, like
if kids, if children of first responders are listening, if
you're a parent and you're a first responder listening, like
isn't there so much to be said about just like that
vulnerability piece as well of like being vulnerable with your
kids? Yeah, knowing that emotions are
(30:43):
OK, allowing them to be vulnerable with you, rather than
shutting it down and saying, hey, go rub some dirt on that.
Right, right, right. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I misunderstood.
Absolutely. No, you're OK.
We're just shooting back and forth right now.
So I put you on the spot that wasn't and that was literally
because my brain was like, of course goes 100.
And I'm like, huh, like Speakingof like, what about
(31:06):
vulnerability up in here? Like.
Yeah, I don't think that's a hard thing to to navigate.
Like when is it appropriate to be vulnerable?
And then obviously first responding careers like you're
taught all the things to not be.So I get it for sure, yeah.
(31:27):
Yeah, and I think too, like if children of first responders are
listening, which we hope they are just you're not alone in all
that. Absolutely.
There's so many different dynamics, there's so many
frustrations. There's there is looking at
other kids and being like, how come your life is much more
flexible than mine? Exactly what do you mean?
Like you got to go to Disney andnot FOP convention for summer
(31:50):
vacation? I don't understand.
Yeah, yeah, mine is still. I know I've said this before but
mine is still like what do you mean?
Or maybe I haven't said it on here I'm not sure.
But as silly as this is, what doyou mean?
You can call your dad dude and he doesn't get mad at you like.
Oh my gosh, I could not. Like that's not even in like an
(32:11):
imaginary. Exactly.
Yeah, oh, like in the still 32 and in my head I could see his
face. It was one time one off.
I learned a lesson, right? Those eyebrows turned in and his
exact statement was I am not your dude.
And I was like, oh God, you do not say that.
He is you. Know but then my friends would
(32:33):
say it all the time right and I would be like get it why can't I
say that like and it's so it's as little as that when you're a
child of a first responder that you pick up on all these
different things where you're just.
Absolutely. You know, it's normal and it's
normal to be sometimes angry with your parents and they're
strict rules, but it's also thistrust in that as you grow.
(32:54):
Yeah. Also learn that there was a lot
of beauty in the way you grow upas.
Well, you know, and to, like bring us back a little bit, I
think that's that whole thing about career paths and the
resiliency of first responder kids and, you know, the choices
we make. And I think, you know, we we
come on and we talk about our mental health backgrounds.
And I just thought it was nice for us to maybe talk a little
(33:15):
bit of our origin stories in terms of like, how do we get on
these paths and didn't become first responders.
Yeah. Yeah, I think I always laugh now
because because I work with so many and I do so much so
involved, right that I'm like, Idon't have the as hot as the
sounds. I have the patients in the world
(33:36):
in this this office space that Ihave for therapy.
But there is no way in heck you're catching me out there
trying to implement the law withsome of these folks.
I'm like my patients would be zero to 100.
I would be fired in two seconds.I cannot be a first responder
like I cannot. Use aggressive force on your
(33:58):
first. Girl, they would be like, ma'am,
this is not for I just don't I so odd to me, but it's so funny
too. Like I watch obviously, like on
patrol live. We love Rizzo, right?
Like shout out to them, all of them on there.
And I'm like, they're not, I don't have the patience for
that. We're not doing that.
(34:18):
I laugh all the time. I'm like, this is exactly why I
couldn't become a first responder.
Because interestingly enough, they have all the patience in
the world on the street. But maybe that's why they didn't
have it when they came home. Yeah.
I mean, I think about that with like nursing, like I would be
the worst nurse. I'm like, I'm sorry you don't
feel well, Please go away and come back when you're better.
(34:39):
Like no patience for that. So we all have our strengths and
our opportunities, that's for sure.
That is for sure. Absolutely, absolutely.
Well, I feel like this episode is a little bit of a wild card,
but I love it. As it always is when it's just
you and I and no special guest And yeah, but.
(34:59):
I also, I also love it because Ifeel like it challenges our
listeners. Yeah, don't listen, right?
Listen and pull something. Yeah.
Like, isn't that the beauty of learning?
Yeah, you can edit this out, butI'm like, can we have a special
guest? Jennifer, you're chef mom on
sometime. Yeah, OK.
No pressure. I love it.
(35:23):
Ashleys before, so we could definitely have two Jennifer's,
it would be okay. I mean, absolutely, it's not my
well, there are a long Jennifer's in this world and
that is. But that sounds like it's not my
fault that my parents made me the most common name in America.
But yeah, no, there are quite a few Jennifer's too.
Just a couple, just a couple. Well, I think that we do have,
(35:46):
we'll just say it out now that we do have some cool guests,
cool, they're on a different guests lined up to come back on.
And we still are always open forpeople to message us, share
their stories, want to come on, share our message, and of
course, anything they want us totalk about on here.
Absolutely, and we just always appreciate our listeners.
(36:08):
Yes. And so never forget that when
the call hits home, Jennifer andI are here for you.
Thank you. Have a good one.
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