October 22, 2025 • 41 mins
Mike Mudd [00:00:00]:
When we would have a critical incident, I didn't have any mechanisms. I wanted to help people. I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really had. It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the next run. But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people. A lot of people leave the field or really become just bitter, angry people. And I'm like, you need to leave.
Mike Mudd [00:00:21]:
Like, you need to go do something else. But, you know, you can't force somebody to leave that field and go do something else. But you can see it.
Jennifer [00:00:29]:
Hi, welcome back to when the Call Hits Home.
Ashlee [00:00:31]:
This is Jennifer and I'm Ashlee.
Jennifer [00:00:34]:
And Ashlee, you know, this one's been a long time in the making. Our guest today is Mike Mudd. And when we first started this podcast, I was in conversation with our guest today, and I'm so excited that we finally have gotten him on the podcast. So, Mike, I'm just going to hand it to you and you tell us a little bit about who you are and we'll go from there.
Mike Mudd [00:00:53]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm excited to be on today. It has been a long time and been friends for a while, so I'm excited to be on this and tell a little bit of my previous life and experiences and what I've been through and how it relates to what you guys do. And so I'm excited to be here.
Jennifer [00:01:09]:
Well, you mentioned past life, so tell us a little bit what you do now and then what your career was before.
Mike Mudd [00:01:15]:
So I am a realtor now. Been doing this for a little over 12 years, 12 and a half years now. Coming up on 13 years for that. I was a paramedic here in Louisville. I did that for 25 years. The last several years, I was a captain over operations for private service. When I was on duty, I was in charge of everything from dispatch to the crews to discipline to making critical scene runs and helping out the crews and mentoring and things like that, which seemed to be fantastic. When I was a street medic.
Mike Mudd [00:01:51]:
I was like, I want to be that person. And I did love it. But ultimately managing people was where I got to is like, this is not as much fun as it looked like from the outside. And so managing the cruise and things like that really got me to a point where I'm like, I'm not looking forward to going to work anymore because I know I've got to deal with this, this, this person and this person. I know it's Going to be difficult. That's when I really started. Like 25 years is probably enough. And I need to look into my next career.
Mike Mudd [00:02:19]:
And I dug around a little bit and looked at nursing programs because that's a natural.
Ashlee [00:02:24]:
Right.
Mike Mudd [00:02:24]:
Transition from paramedic to nursing. I just wanted to get out of the medical field completely. And I grew up watching this old house on. Yeah. And all of those remodeling shows. And just I'm like, well, let me talk to some friends in real estate. Long story short, I took my test, got my license, and it just exploded for me. Changed my life.
Mike Mudd [00:02:48]:
A lot of things I've been exposed to and a lot of work I've done on myself has been through going to conferences and different self help speakers. And I do and continue to do a lot of work on me because I. I need a lot of work. So. And you know, dating back before that, I grew up here in Louisville. I was part of a split flat family. My mom and dad got divorced when I was about 1. My mom remarried my stepdad who was a police officer and I was about three and my dad remarried when I was about six.
Mike Mudd [00:03:25]:
I've always had two sets of parents, but I live with my mom and my stepdad who was the police officer. Yeah.
Jennifer [00:03:32]:
You know, Mike, I only knew you as a realtor and it's so funny like, you know, you've had a couple past lives before we got to know each other. I do think. And people need to know if they're in the Louisville area and need a house that they need to reach out because you're amazing. Again, I've only ever known you as a realtor and only hear great stuff about that. But we do want to talk a little bit about kind of what drew you to becoming a paramedic in terms of that as your first career.
Mike Mudd [00:03:58]:
Well, that was not what I was going to do at all. Obviously, you know, my stepdad was a police officer and that's what I wanted to be when I grew up from I can remember always I wanted to be a cop. I went from my big wheel days to my bicycle days. I always, I made this blinking with my eyes for the blue lights because my stepdad was a detective and he had unmarked cars and in his grill he had these blue lights. And when he pulled in the driveway, if I was in the driveway, he turned thos
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(00:00):
When we would have a critical incident, I didn't have any
mechanisms. I wanted to help people.
I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really
had. It was get them back out on the
street, get them back on the next run.
But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck
with people. I thought a lot of people leave
the field or, or really become just bitter, angry people.
(00:20):
And I'm like, God, you need to leave.
Like you need to go do somethingelse.
But you can't force somebody to leave that field and go do
something else. But you can see it.
Hi, welcome back to When the Call Hits Home.
This is Jennifer. And I'm Ashley.
And Ashley, you know, this one'sbeen a long time in the making.
Our guest today is Mike Mudd. And when we first started this
(00:40):
podcast, I was in conversation with our guest today and I'm so
excited that we finally have gotten him on the podcast.
So Mike, I'm just going to hand it to you and you tell us a
little bit about who you are andwe'll go from there.
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm excited to be on
today. It has been all time and been
friends for a while, so I'm excited to be on this and tell a
little bit of my previous life and experiences and what I've
(01:04):
been through and how it relates to what you guys do and so I'm
invited to be here. Well, you've mentioned past
life, so tell us a little bit what you do now and then what
your career was before. So I am a realtor now, been
doing this for a little over 12 years, 12 1/2 years now, coming
up on 13 years for that. I was a paramedic here in
(01:26):
Louisville. I did that for 25 years.
The last several years I was a captain over operations for
private service. When I was on duty, I was in
charge of everything from dispatch to the cruise to
discipline to making critical scene runs and helping out the
cruise and mentoring and things like that, which seemed to be
(01:47):
fantastic. When I was a street medic, I was
like, I want to be that person and, and I did love it, but
ultimately managing people was where I got to is like, this is
not as much fun as it looked like from the outside.
And so managing the cruise and things like that really got me
to a point where I'm like, I'm not looking forward to going to
(02:09):
work anymore because I know I'vegot to deal with this, this,
this person and this person. I know it's going to be
difficult. That's when I really started,
Like 25 years is probably enough.
And I need to look into my next career.
I dug around a little bit and looked at nursing programs
because that's a natural, right transition from paramedic to
nursing. I just wanted to get out of the
medical field completely. And I grew up watching This Old
(02:31):
House on, on PBS. PBS, Yeah.
And all of those remodeling shows.
And just I'm like, well, let me talk to some friends in real
estate. Long story short, I took my
test, got my license and it justexploded for me, changed my
life. A lot of things I've been
exposed to and a lot of work I've done on myself has been
(02:53):
through going to conferences anddifferent self help speakers.
And I do and continue to do a lot of work on me cuz I, I need
a lot of work. So.
And, you know, dating back before that, I grew up here in
Louisville. I was part of a family.
(03:13):
My mom and dad got divorced whenI was about one.
My mom remarried my stepdad, whowas a police officer, and I was
about 3 and my dad remarried when I was about 6.
So I've always had two sets of parents and but I live with my
mom and my stepdad who was the police officer.
Yeah. You know, Mike, I only knew you
(03:34):
as a realtor and it's so funny, like, you know, you've had a
couple past lives before we got to know each other.
I do think, and people need to know if they're in the
Louisville area and need a house, that they need to reach
out because you're amazing. Again, I've only ever known you
as a realtor and you only hear great stuff about that.
But we do want to talk a little bit about kind of what drew you
to becoming a paramedic in termsof that as your first career?
(03:58):
Well, that was not what I was going to do at all.
Obviously, you know, my stepdad was a police officer and that's
what I wanted to be when I grew up from, as I can remember,
always I wanted to be a cop. I went from my big wheel days to
my bicycle days. I always, I made this blinking
(04:20):
with my eyes for the blue lightsbecause my stepdad was a slice
time detective and he had unmarked cars and in his grill
he had these blue lights. And when he pulled in the
driveway, if I was in the driveway, he turned those on and
I love them. Yeah, I would do that with my
eyes when we played Cops and robbers.
(04:40):
I love. And I made a siren with my
voice. I was always a cop.
And so the joke was that I was going to grow up to be a police
car. So I was always fascinated with
the lights and the sirens and, and all of that.
My plan was I was going to graduate high school and then I
(05:02):
was going to go into the Air Force.
And when I got out of the Air Force, I was going to be a cop.
And so I remember telling my stepdad at one point, though, I
saw an ambulance driving girl. I was like, oh, I think I want
to do that. He's like, no, you don't want to
do that. And I'm like, why not?
He's like, people throw up in your mouth and I'm like, OK, I'm
out. I'm good.
My mom didn't want me to be a cop.
She had him bring home some homicide pictures one time to
(05:26):
try and discourage me from doingthat to like scare me out of it
and I just loved it like these are.
Right. Wait, sign me up even more.
Yeah, I had those for years, up until probably five years ago.
I was going through some stuff. I said I should probably shred
these. Like if somebody goes through
these pictures when I die, they're going to be.
(05:47):
Like. Weird.
So I went into the Air Force andthen I got out and come home and
I ended up being a paramedic. Long story short, I got a job as
a dispatcher and just worked my way up from dispatcher to EMT to
medic to running the service OR.But wait, hold up, We were in
the Air Force too? I had no idea.
(06:09):
Yeah, I was in the Air Force too.
Yeah, I was AF16 crew chief in the Air Force.
I wanted to be a cop in the Air Force, but my depth perception
apparently was off. So it just qualified me from
being a cop in the Air Force. I mean, it hasn't really
affected my life at all, but I end up being a crew chief on the
F16, which is a really fun job. So I was a guy that did all of
(06:31):
this and did all the Yeah, and it was fun, but I didn't want to
do that in the civilian world when I got out, so.
Understandably, understandably, I love that about being a little
kid and being in the car, but you know how it all kind of
comes back around. That's amazing to kind of share
that. I appreciate that.
Yeah, I had to laugh cuz I'm like that's what it was for me.
Like I don't know, that would bethe best part.
(06:53):
If you did a ride along or something, I'd be like, Dad just
let me hit the sirens. Just let me hit the lights.
Absolutely. Like I knew where those buttons
were in every squad. I'm like, let's.
Go. So that made me laugh too.
I think what's really cool is wehaven't had, we've been in
search of finding somebody in the EMS world to come on here
because we really want to represent right and and we
(07:13):
haven't had this amazing opportunity.
So I'm so grateful that you're here.
And I wanted to ask if you couldjust describe maybe a little bit
of what a typical day or night, whatever that shift was for you
kind of looked like on the job? Well, you know, EMS is a
different animal than fire, police, EMS.
We are very independent and we think independently, which is
(07:36):
what makes you good at the job because when you're on the
scene, nothing's the same and everybody's signs and symptoms
and stuff are all different. So we have to think
independently on our feet. And so it's much different than
the fire service or the Police Department.
It's like when this happens, youput water on it or you put.
You. Know and so and we're like we're
all over the place, you know whether it's a stroke or a heart
(07:59):
attack or trauma and car accidents, it's always you
always have into each situation presents its own unique
challenges. I guess a day in the life or a
night in the life, because you work both shifts a lot of times
would be mostly sitting around. You do a lot of that now when I
work for the city I work for like our unit and our shift was
(08:20):
ranked like 5th busiest in the nation.
Oh wow. Here in Louisville, which was
surprising, a lot of it is wholehome stuff.
I've had a cold for three days, you know, sick babies, parents
don't know what to do with the kids or they call because
they're throwing up blood. And when we get there, we're
like, oh, well, you know, what did they have to eat today?
(08:40):
What I mean, they had cherry popsicles all day and so the
blood isn't blood, it's just cherry popsicles dealing with
fevers and delivering babies andthings like this.
So a lot of it is kind of not too exciting, will you say?
It's 80% kind of boring, not really needed EMS stuff and 20%
(09:00):
of some of the craziest stuff you could ever imagine in your
life. You know, you're in the middle
of a shooting situation and you're in a house or you're on
the street and people are screaming and yelling and
sometimes the police are there first.
They usually are. Now back when I was doing it,
they weren't. It was kind of our goal was to
beat the police to everything. Kind of a challenge we both had
against each other. Police are tracking us and we
(09:22):
try to become some of the stuff was crazy.
But when you're that type of person, that's what you thrive
in. You thrive in bringing some calm
to chaos. That's what I I love being once
I got my medic. I love that.
I love being the person that thepolice were there and the fire
department were there and they're all freaking out because
(09:42):
babies are dying and not breathing because they're
dealing with their own thing. And then when you walk in, it's
like the paramedics here, here. And I'm like, oh, yeah, give
them to me. I'm, you know, this is what I
do. And I did enjoy that part of it
to be able to bring some calm tosome of the most craziest things
that some people experience in their life.
Just being able to slow down andslow your speech down and, and
(10:06):
speak in a calm manner and you slow your cadence down.
The crazier it is, the slower I talked and the quieter that I've
got. I would get very monotone with
people just trying to calm them down most of the time.
Sometimes you just had to play the game and yell at them and
cuss at them and tie them down. And but the next, you know, once
(10:29):
you get them under control, thenyou're back into the.
OK, let's deal with the situation here minute by minute.
So it was a very, very emotionalmind kind of field.
And you just, you know, you dealwith a lot of stuff and you
just, you file it away because when I did it, there was no,
they were just starting to do some of the critical debriefing,
(10:52):
But we, we didn't have any of that.
You just sucked it up and you went to work.
I had partners that had kids andwe made kids that were had died
in the night or different things.
And your partner is losing theircrap and want to cuss on on your
your pot you. You can.
Actually I'm the. One that'll drop it.
OK, good. Yeah, when your partner's losing
(11:13):
their shit, partner has to like,calm down, I've got this.
You go walk, let me deal with this and they would do the same
thing for you for the most part,so.
Well, I appreciate you sharing all that.
And I was wondering like when you became a captain, that kind
of knowing people's, you know, what's a good fit or knowing
(11:34):
somebody has a family and they're showing up to a child
incident. Is that something that played
when you were kind of in that leadership role more, or was it
more the frustration of getting shifts covered that was tougher?
All of that and holding crews over because we don't have
enough crews to cover the run volume that was coming in and,
(11:55):
and people wanting to go home and go home to their families
or, you know, they've been on shift for 10 or 12 hours and
you're like, I can't let you go because we don't have enough
people here to cover what we have.
And that was struggle because I felt really bad because I've
been in that position. I've been that person that had
to get mandatory and you know, they're tired and they're
(12:16):
exhausted and what kind of medicare they showing up As for their
patients when they're tired and they're upset and they're angry.
And that was difficult too and difficult for them to manage as
well, because you want people toshow up at their best when other
people are really at their worst.
But pretty thing for me was whenwe would have a critical
incident, I didn't have any mechanisms.
(12:37):
I wanted to help people. I'd bring them in and talk with
them, but that's all we really had.
It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the
next run. But that wasn't the best thing.
You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people.
A lot of people leave the field or, or really become just
bitter, angry people. And I'm like, God, you need to
leave. Like you need to go do something
else. But you can't force somebody to
(12:59):
leave that field and go do something else.
But you can see it. I actually talk and I talk about
I'm a bit older and what my dad's experience was in terms of
mental health for officers to where we are now.
You know it's come right a long way it.
Wasn't. Well, yeah.
And so I was going to ask in terms of your experience, is
there was some reflection of like I wish we had, is there
(13:21):
something that you kind of can look at hindsight and it would
have been nice too? For sure, I wish we had been
able to have the mental health system set up when we had a
critical incident to be able to pull those crews off the street,
talk with somebody that night and you know, maybe a couple
days later I'll be able to give somebody a little bit of time
(13:43):
off. Like, OK, this was really bad.
There was an incident that I remember that really messed with
some of my employees was a really bad accident.
Several people burn up in the car and being the service in
this county, we, our service wasin charge of taking people to
the coroner's office. So my crews had to wait for the
fire department to cut the roof off and literally pry these
(14:04):
bodies out of this charred car that were still in their
seatbelts. You know, you see it, you can't
Unsee it, you can't UN smell it.Right.
So I wish that I had been able to do something for them then,
and there had been systems in place and mechanisms in place.
I think there are now. I still think there's probably a
long way to go. Oh.
Absolutely, Mike. Yeah.
(14:25):
Absolutely. In my opinion, you need staff
that are clinical workers. You need to be able to to pull
people off the street for eitherthe rest of the shift or even a
couple of days and force them tocome in and speak with a
therapist because a lot of people won't.
(14:45):
I've got to. Handle it in this field.
It's macho and you can take careof everything and not everybody
can. I thought I could and it took me
several years for me getting outof that world.
I remember when I left and I gotinto this, it was about two
weeks after I had left EMS supervisor role and I was just
like my shoulders. They just relaxed.
(15:07):
It was, it was physically obvious that a lot of stress was
off of me. Yeah.
And then it took several years after that.
I was having lunch with a friendof mine that and she was a medic
for years and a supervisor as well.
And she was talking about her PTSD.
And I never thought I had any ofthat.
And then it struck me that thereI do, I really do.
(15:30):
And that just made me a little emotional just there.
But there's no just no. And it's affected relationships.
It's affected, just it affects your life, but knowing that it's
there helps that. Community oh absolutely and you
know I I think you just. You just think you're crazy.
Well, and I think that it's thisidea of like, you know, I went
(15:52):
into this and solved things and it was part of the job.
Like this is what I signed up for and you don't?
Do it, who will? Well, and it's funny, like even
talking about, you know, those reactions of seeing people, your
employees, your peers that you care about and like, how are
they going to be for the people,their patients?
Like, I think that's such a first responder of like how we
(16:15):
want to show up our best and therealization of like our brains
are just not supposed to see things that we've seen.
And it's not, I think a weaknessor oh darn it, I'm one of the
ones that fell to PTSD. It's just again, it's just
there's again, we're not supposed to see a body charred
(16:36):
in a car accident. You know the things that you see
and there's some fun, there's some good stuff in the field
you. Know.
Absolutely. I was going to ask about that
earlier. I'm like.
Wait a minute, it. Doesn't smell good.
They usually don't. You know, it's let, let me just
(16:57):
say it's not a clean hospital situation, right?
The side of the road at 4:00 in the morning in the front seat of
the car, you know, or you're Ouch in somebody's house.
Babies don't wait. Babies are coming when they're
coming and you just got to catchthem and hope there aren't any
complications 'cause you're out in the field and you've got to
get somebody to the hospital. You know, my PTSD, it shows up
in Curtassum. I, I still do it.
(17:22):
I do it all the time. It's in my head all the time,
but now I know what it is and I'm like, stop thinking about
that guy. Like this thing happened.
Why is your mind going through these things and just driving
down the road and OK, I'm driving down the road, the car
coming in their way. What if they come across with a
meeting and come toward me? What am I going to do?
And because you've seen all of. That exactly.
(17:44):
The carnage that comes from that.
And so my mind thinks that the worst thing all the time.
I even say out loud sometimes. Now stop it.
Stop it. What are you doing?
This doesn't exist, Mike. Think of something else.
Think of something positive. And so it's affected
relationships. When my partner was going
through some stuff, you know, I always think somebody's going to
kill himself and I'm going to gofind them that I love.
(18:07):
And so that's where my mind goes.
It's always the worst case scenario.
I remember we had gotten into a fight.
He had said something. And so I went over to the house
and when I went over to his house, he went, I didn't see him
and I went upstairs and I didn'tsee him.
And I immediately in my head, I thought he's hung himself from
the rafters in the basement. And I was headed to the basement
and he was coming out of the bathroom like he was like, what
(18:29):
are you doing? And I'm like, you know, because
you've seen it, you know, and the family go through it.
It's just tough to let that stuff go.
I don't know that it'll ever go away, but at least I know what
it is now and I can identify it.I just want to thank you because
I think this is the first time we've had someone on here.
I mean, we've had incredible people on here who are open and
(18:50):
vulnerable, but I feel like thisis one of the first times that
you're giving the raw truths of like what goes on in in your
brain, right? Like what actually happens.
And I think this is going to be so incredibly powerful for a lot
of people who listen because what also happens right away
when you're like that PTFCI didn't know what it was.
It's like a really isolating feeling because you feel like
(19:11):
looking around like anybody elsefeeling this?
Anybody else? Having these thoughts, does
anybody else see that it's it goes back to you won't set with
your back to the door and you know like that right and where
that stuff comes from. Yes.
And I just think that people really to have you come on here
and to be so open and for othersto listen to this, like, I think
it's going to be incredibly powerful just because hopefully
(19:34):
one they realize I'm not alone. But then too, just to hear, OK,
there's some normalcy to this, right.
I see. Right.
Yeah. What up the front?
Trust me but. Yeah.
Absolutely. Growing up as a kid, it was the
same thing. My dad was a homicide detective.
So for one, he showed no emotionand that caused conflict between
(19:58):
my mom and him. But he saw, I saw some of the
pictures that he took, you know,of bodies and murder scenes.
And so he had that on him and hecarried that with him.
But that affected him that he couldn't show the emotion.
He had to tough it up and be, I mean, he started on the Police
Department in like 61. And so he retired in 9392.
(20:23):
Somewhere around there, he put on 30.
Some years, but I saw that affect their marriage as well.
So 1. He didn't show any emotion with
us. I mean, I mean, he did.
He wasn't cold. Yeah.
We never saw him emotional. Yeah.
We knew if like if he ever lost his temper like it was.
Yeah, yeah, A. Child and my mom was the
opposite. My mom was always yelling and
(20:45):
taking care of the kids so that was all on her.
But I remember her saying he doesn't show any emotion, like,
I need somebody to have some emotion.
And it ultimately led to their divorce.
And then they got remarried and after he retired.
But that took an effect on them.And it also affected how my mom
raised us. Like we grew up in a nice
neighborhood. I was just driving down there a
couple weeks ago showing a friend where I lived, like we
(21:06):
weren't supposed to go around the block, Definitely didn't go
into the woods when we were kidsbecause people would get us.
Because my mom also knew from him what happened to people
somewhat. And so she was very protective
of us. And we kind of, of course, we
went into the woods every chancewe had.
Of course I. Can did all of those things he
told us not to do, but. Like the good children that you
(21:28):
are, yeah. But those fears of what would
happen to us affected how she raised us as well.
And so. I think that that is an
important thing to kind of recognize.
Ashley and I kind of started this just being the kids of
first responders and our experience and having parents
that are a little bit hyper vigilant or parents telling you
(21:49):
stories that maybe not be age appropriate.
But again, it comes from such a like a safety.
Exactly, exactly. You know, somebody drowned in
that pool there. I'm like, can we just get to
school? Like we all have to hear you
just. Go.
Swimming about somebody drowningin a pool on my way to school,
(22:09):
my guy. I think it's just echoing what
you're saying. And when you have parents that
are in these jobs, they're just very hyper aware and that is
going to creep on their kids. Like that is just for sure
something that kind of leans itself to that kind of
parenting. Collateral damage.
Yeah, Speaking of having your stepdad be in law enforcement
(22:33):
and I appreciate you Sharon. You know, I'm going to be a cop
one day and obviously had some imprint.
Did he get to see you be an EMS and, and did that dynamic change
in terms of you guys being both in the same career or?
Not really. He never really discussed much
of it. I grew up hearing some of his
(22:54):
friends over the years, some of the other cops and detectives
that he knew that he'd killed themselves over the years.
And you worry as a kid, are my parents going to do that?
But we didn't really. He's like, he didn't want me to
do any of it, do anything else, but don't do this job.
He didn't really want me to be acop because he knew.
But that you weren't talking me out of it.
Just like any other first responders, kids that want to go
(23:17):
into the same field, you're not talking about they're going to
do it because that's what they want to do and so.
Yeah, I was wondering if we could circle back for a second,
do something standing out to me.So when you went through your
EMS career, the mental health portion you were saying wasn't
as strong, correct? It exists.
Yeah, yeah. And you had said, and I loved
(23:37):
it, you had said kind of forcingpeople to talk to somebody,
right. And something that I do in this
world, like right now is that I'm helping with a department,
we're helping trying to enforce neck up checkup.
So those once a year Wellness visits and we go back and forth.
They go back and forth. I'm do you make it mandatory?
Do you not? And like, my strong belief is,
yeah, you do you. Don't that most of them won't do
(24:00):
it and the ones that do will feel less than because they're
doing it. And some of these other stronger
people that can handle it, they don't do it because they're more
manly or they're tougher or theycan handle it and that's just
not the case. People need to be made to do
this, if nothing else, during critical, after critical events,
(24:20):
serious heavy duty stuff, because you see the serious
heavy duty stuff, they need to be made to talk with somebody
just to get it out of their heads.
We just lock it away. I remember my mom telling me one
time you've gotten really cold and I'm like, don't have it.
What are you talking about? I'm not cold.
But she was right. Like, to stay in that industry
(24:41):
for any amount of time, you haveto be able to put it away and
put it in box and lock that box.If not, you won't stay in it
long. You'll just drive yourself crazy
or you'll kill yourself. I mean, people do it all the
time in this field. I don't think the public
realizes how much suicide happens between police, fire and
EMS. Yeah.
Oh, Mike, we talk about it so much here.
(25:01):
It happened such. A reality.
So sad. And it's because you aren't
supposed to talk about it. You aren't made to talk about
it. It should be.
It should be part of the training, just like you have to
do continuing education every year.
It shouldn't be any different. It should be part of taking care
of people that do this job because.
(25:24):
I. Know.
If you don't, you run them into the ground and then and they do
crazy stuff. We see all the time the police,
the fire, EMS are being arrestedfor doing stupid stuff that.
And polls being. Doing Yeah.
And it's just, it's because thisyou take on so much for the
(25:45):
public and all the public sees is, oh, a policeman was doing
that. Well, crooked cop or you know,
crooked medic or bad firemen. But it's the job.
It's their fault at the end of the day because they made the
decision to do the wrong thing. However, they didn't get in this
industry to do the wrong thing. 99.9% of people didn't get in
(26:06):
this industry to take advantage of people.
It happens because of what the job does to me.
I just got goosebumps. I was just about to say Mike
might be my new favorite human and everyone listening is going
to be mad because I say that often, but he may have went to
#1 Because that was so powerful and it so refreshing.
Like to hear it and to also liketo hear this from the EMS side.
(26:30):
Well, that's something when Jennifer was talking at church
and she was talking about doing some of the work she does with
police. And I think it was mostly police
at the time. I think you were doing a little
bit with fire maybe. But I was like, hey, don't
forget the paramedics. And she's like, and it hadn't
even dawned on her at the time. I'm like, but we're right there,
like everybody knows police and fire and they get the most
(26:53):
attention. EMS has always been what we've
said, the red headed stepchildren.
Of course. As you can.
Relate. Like they don't get attention,
they don't get any accolades. If you watch the news media, the
news media doesn't, they'll say police or fire department.
They don't say the paramedics. They don't talk about that.
(27:13):
We're dealing with the human side of it.
We're taking care of the people.And it because it's only been
around since the early to mid 60s.
It doesn't have the recognition that it deserves.
It doesn't have the respect thatit deserves.
It doesn't have the professionalism that it
deserves. It's getting better.
A lot of fire departments are pulling EMS into the department,
(27:37):
and that's a numbers game because fire prevention has
gotten so good. They don't make as many fire
runs as they did. And so you can't justify bigger
budgets and more fire trucks andall this better equipment.
If your run volumes going down and you pull EMS in, it's
(27:57):
usually a different tax bracket.They've maxed out on their tax
base that they can for fire. You pull EMS in and that gives
them additional tax revenue thatthey can charge now.
And it justifies the equipment and things that they need
because of the run volume, because EMS run volume is just
astronauts all the time. So it's EMS is hugely
(28:22):
undervalued and underrated and under appreciated.
Can I say another population that I'm going to be honest,
like I had no clue that's where you started, was dispatchers?
Yeah. I think that's another
population they totally agree, really missed in a lot of this
stuff. And again, you were talking
about the same thing with high suicide rates and things like
(28:44):
that as well, so. Yeah, not me just paying because
I also feel that same way about corrections.
Yeah. Right.
Like, yeah. Filed those both are so true.
Yeah, and EMS is underpaid. Corrections is underpaid. 1000.
Percent underpaid. A lot of people don't think of
them as first responders, but they are.
(29:05):
They're dealing with especially dispatchers.
They're the ones that you call now.
You can tell the ones that have been there for a long time that
are bitter when you call. You can tell the ones that you
know aren't so bitter, but they need the same thing.
They need exactly they need to be made to talk to people to
because they're hearing it. They're not there, so it is
(29:26):
different. But I mean, they're hearing it
on the phone. They're hearing those cries for
help. They're hearing people dying on
the phone like. Exactly they're.
Hearing all that stuff. So it does affect them.
Absolutely. Well, and I want to go back up
for what you said too, like whenyou were a captain and people
having to stay late. And I'm like, I know it has to
(29:46):
come down sometimes to just a staffing issue.
And again, like people have sacrificed so much and it's
again, like we just did a horrible call.
Well, there's another one. And we don't have people.
We don't have people to. So you just got to go.
You know, that's that kind of stuff.
The revolving door of it as well.
Yeah, there's just not enough compensation and it's not as
(30:08):
much of the compensation when you're in it.
That's nice, but it's the other support that would.
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I obviously we all
want more money like that. Who doesn't?
But sometimes it's about can youjust see me?
Can you just see that I'm struggling?
And support and those were some of the things that I tried to
(30:30):
implement. I'm like, you know, and I worked
for a private service the last several years.
That's where I started, that's where I ended.
But we were the 911 backup for the city.
We were the 911 across the riverfor two counties.
And so they're seeing the same stuff of.
Course. Let's just instead of throwing a
party where everybody gets drunklike stupid, why don't we do
some recognition? Why don't we give somebody a
(30:52):
little ribbon that they can wearon their uniform that for
whatever it is you made this critical run or you did
something, give them a ribbon, give them some recognition.
Even that $2.00 ribbon means something because it makes
somebody proud and it shows thatthey were recognized, what they
did mattered and that it seemed,you know, I made a run one time
(31:15):
in a house fire and we had two dead babies that we were trying
to resuscitate in the ambulance and the mom because there was
like 5 of them. And so we load up as many people
as we can in each ambulance because you only have a limited
amount and they all died, The pregnant mom died and but we
were all recognized. We're part of the fire
department at that time. And so we were all recognized
(31:36):
for that and we played off well,we don't need it, but it did
mean something it. Really.
Did they really did? Oh, they saw and they know what
we went through just to deal with that, so.
I love that because it kind of wraps up some of our other
episodes too in this because we've tried to hit on leadership
as well. I'm a big proponent of, I will
go to the lengths of like, I don't know, getting myself in
(31:58):
trouble for it. But I just think that there's
what you're saying is so true. And then we had Tom Rizzo on
here and we've had people on here and then and it's like,
what is the key to a good leaderin these organizations, right at
these departments? What I feel like you're saying,
and it keeps coming, just see your people.
Just show them that they're human and show that you care
about them. Right.
It's huge. My nickname was Captain Dick.
(32:20):
Just. Oh.
No, but. I followed the rules and I
didn't play any favorites, and when somebody did something, I
had to hold them accountable. But I was fair.
I didn't like doing that part ofthe job, but it was part of the
job. I liked going around and
checking on people like my When I was on duty, I wanted to see
every crew member that was on ship, at least one during the
(32:41):
night, and just check on them. They thought I was checking up
on them, you know, and getting them in trouble.
And there's all kinds of rumors out there that I'd written
people up for sleeping or something, and I never did that.
And then that never happened. But when I was gone, they missed
me because then they realized what Mike actually cared.
Some of them I didn't like at all all, but they were still
(33:04):
there for doing a job and I still cared.
Leadership is huge. Leadership training is almost
non existent. What they tend to do is take
somebody that's good on the street, teach them the books,
and then promote them. Just because you're a good medic
doesn't mean you're going to be a good supervisor, doesn't mean
you're a good boss, doesn't meanyou're going to be a good
director. There needs to be more and more
(33:25):
training for the leadership. Working leading people.
How to lead people, how to care about people, how to respond to
people in these situations because it all comes from the
top. The atmosphere of the whole
department starts at the very top.
Not the not just the chief, but also the leaders that are that
(33:48):
put the chief in place. Yes, it comes from them as well
and they don't know what's goingon and they don't have a clue
because they've never done the job.
I don't know how to fix it. I just know it needs to start at
the top. Well, I just want to say you
definitely sound like somebody grew up in a first responder
home when there's rules and we have to follow them, absolutely.
(34:09):
Just like, is it bad that I'm sitting over here like, oh, hit
send on this episode to everybody in the county right
now and I got even the higher ups like I'm hitting send on
this because it's just powerful and it's so true and people need
to hear it. And I think coming from someone
who's lived it and experienced it, like Jennifer and I kind of
talk about this all the time. We're like, we're so passionate
and we want to make change and we talk about these things, But
(34:31):
I think sometimes people look atus and they're like, no.
You don't know you're talking about.
No therapist, right? And but to have someone come on
and to be able to be so open andto say it, it's like that's the
change we hope we see is that people realize, no, this is this
is real and you have to listen. We have to learn from each other
to be able to grow. You know, we're talking about
leadership again. Leadership has to come out of
(34:53):
the ivory tower. I've seen it so much.
There was an old chief of policeof the county Police Department
that I was kind of new. Him and my dad were friends and
he put my dad in professional standards unit, which he hated
because he trusted him. But of course my dad want to be
there because you're investigating other officers,
right? You're not liked.
(35:15):
He didn't. Like doing that, but he was
trusted. But I remember he would get out.
The chief would go out and ride around and make runs every now
and then and talk with the people on the ground.
It's huge because you think theyforget you, and a lot of times
they do. They forget where they come
from. But when you're out and you're
(35:35):
checking on your folks, even me,I would try and find my cruise.
The joy that I got out is I would try and find them and
sneak up on them and then scare them.
I got the. Most and HR never got called
Mike. Right.
That was the most fun. I love that.
Just some of the things I did. Yeah.
(35:57):
Gives you a little bit of joy. People don't understand the way
we cope either. Yeah.
The things we say, the things wemake fun of that are aren't
appropriate. They're not publicly acceptable.
The games we play on each other and setting up each other's cars
and ambulances and the tricks that we play, it's a mechanism
to deal with this stuff, right? It's not appropriate for the
(36:20):
public, but it's important for those crews for people to have
some understanding of why they're doing it, of what they
see, of what they deal with on aregular basis.
It's crude and inappropriate andnothing you want to have around
your family during the holidays or people that don't understand
a way to decompress and let someof the stress off.
(36:41):
Oh yeah. Well, and I think that there's
just that healthy release in terms of like, we have to laugh
so we don't cry. You know, I think that that's
part of it. Before we wrap up too much, one
thing I, I want to ask you know my, again, I get to know you
personally and I'm very fortunate for that, but you are
such a positive, bright person and I just wanted to kind of ask
(37:02):
what do you feel like is something that kind of helps
you? I know you said you kind of
think of the worst, but I think to know you is to know somebody
that has a smile and is bright and optimistic.
Is there, I don't know, a secretthat you have or something that
has been helpful for you in terms of knowing you've had
those experience that keeps kindof moving forward?
(37:23):
Choosing my best friend has always said, you've been through
so much, how are you not bitter and angry?
And I'm like, I don't wanna be. I love that.
Bitter. And I love that too.
So I really make a choice. It's a conscious effort to not
be. Since I got into real estate,
I've got exposed to a lot of stuff.
(37:43):
Les Brown was the first speaker that I really heard that had me
in tears at the first conferencethat I ever went to.
And it was the first time I'd ever felt like I could be a
little bit more than just average.
I could believe in myself a little bit.
I could do more. And I trace it back to August
2014. It was a Sunday night listening
to Les Brown. And it really kind of changed my
life and just exposing myself tomore and more and more of that
(38:05):
positive people, being around positive people or the five
people that you surround yourself about, that's who you
are. Those things are being true.
And I didn't believe any of that.
I was never exposed to any of that.
Jennifer, you know, all of my families passed away.
Like I'm the last one, you know,like my mom, my dad, my stepdad,
my brother and sister, they've all passed away and young.
And so 2017 was a year where I was like, OK, I'm neither going
(38:30):
to spiral out as well or I've got to do something.
And so I started going back to church again and that's where we
met and trying to do more work on myself.
But the way that I deal with that is like, OK, had I been the
one to die, how would I have wanted my brother and sister or
family to live? I don't want them to live.
(38:51):
I wouldn't want them to live happy, full lives because that's
all we have. I want them to be bitter because
I was gone. And so that kind of I give
myself permission to be happy A.Beautiful walk with.
Grief. For me, it's a tribute to them
because I still get to live thislife until I can't.
And so I need to live it as bestI can and be the best person I
(39:11):
can because I think it's honoring the ones that can't.
I absolutely love that my thoughts making me have my
feeling I. Know me too, I'm not gonna lie
feeling that, yes. So I'll just cry right now.
And it's OK to cry. It is.
This is what I do with my clients.
When I did telehealth, I have a box of Kleenex everybody, and
(39:34):
I'm just virtually handing it out so.
Weird how life works too, like even in the midst of this
podcast and just like hearing these things that maybe like I
needed to here today, right? And that's the beauty of
bringing people together like this.
So I appreciate it. And Mike, I just appreciate you
being on and being so open. And honestly, I'm just like
blown away right now. I think my brain can't even keep
(39:54):
up. I'm just so honored to have met
you and to listen to you and. What was worth the wait for you,
Mike, That's for sure worth the wait.
Honored to be asked and someone wants to listen to me and talk
and because I'm a talker, which makes me good in real estate.
So again, if anybody needs a realtor in your Louisville, KY,
head up. And be a little crazy, but I
(40:15):
like to have fun and. All the good stuff you.
Know the other thing I, I, I think the previous career has
helped me in this career to be able to deal with people and
emotions and people, their money, but also to be able to
bring a sense of calm and thingsare spiring out.
It's like I hear myself that same my voice, my calf.
(40:36):
Down. I.
Was thinking that OK and we're going to get through it.
And in my mind, nobody's dying. It's OK if you're an house or
we'll find you another house. And thanks for having me on.
This has been a lot of fun, I really do.
Appreciate it. You're awesome.
Thank you and thank you for yourtime.
(40:56):
Jennifer, do you have any closing statements?
I just love Mike and I'm glad that we got to spend some time
with them. I'm just so, so thankful and we
want our listeners to always remember that when the call hits
home, Jennifer and I are here for you.
So thank you guys and thank you so much again, Mike.
We are pumped about this episodefor sure.
Thank you, guys. Bye.
Thank you.
When we would have a critical incident, I didn't have any
mechanisms. I wanted to help people.
I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really
had. It was get them back out on the
street, get them back on the next run.
But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck
with people. I thought a lot of people leave
the field or, or really become just bitter, angry people.
(00:20):
And I'm like, God, you need to leave.
Like you need to go do somethingelse.
But you can't force somebody to leave that field and go do
something else. But you can see it.
Hi, welcome back to When the Call Hits Home.
This is Jennifer. And I'm Ashley.
And Ashley, you know, this one'sbeen a long time in the making.
Our guest today is Mike Mudd. And when we first started this
(00:40):
podcast, I was in conversation with our guest today and I'm so
excited that we finally have gotten him on the podcast.
So Mike, I'm just going to hand it to you and you tell us a
little bit about who you are andwe'll go from there.
Oh my gosh. Well, I'm excited to be on
today. It has been all time and been
friends for a while, so I'm excited to be on this and tell a
little bit of my previous life and experiences and what I've
(01:04):
been through and how it relates to what you guys do and so I'm
invited to be here. Well, you've mentioned past
life, so tell us a little bit what you do now and then what
your career was before. So I am a realtor now, been
doing this for a little over 12 years, 12 1/2 years now, coming
up on 13 years for that. I was a paramedic here in
(01:26):
Louisville. I did that for 25 years.
The last several years I was a captain over operations for
private service. When I was on duty, I was in
charge of everything from dispatch to the cruise to
discipline to making critical scene runs and helping out the
cruise and mentoring and things like that, which seemed to be
(01:47):
fantastic. When I was a street medic, I was
like, I want to be that person and, and I did love it, but
ultimately managing people was where I got to is like, this is
not as much fun as it looked like from the outside.
And so managing the cruise and things like that really got me
to a point where I'm like, I'm not looking forward to going to
(02:09):
work anymore because I know I'vegot to deal with this, this,
this person and this person. I know it's going to be
difficult. That's when I really started,
Like 25 years is probably enough.
And I need to look into my next career.
I dug around a little bit and looked at nursing programs
because that's a natural, right transition from paramedic to
nursing. I just wanted to get out of the
medical field completely. And I grew up watching This Old
(02:31):
House on, on PBS. PBS, Yeah.
And all of those remodeling shows.
And just I'm like, well, let me talk to some friends in real
estate. Long story short, I took my
test, got my license and it justexploded for me, changed my
life. A lot of things I've been
exposed to and a lot of work I've done on myself has been
(02:53):
through going to conferences anddifferent self help speakers.
And I do and continue to do a lot of work on me cuz I, I need
a lot of work. So.
And, you know, dating back before that, I grew up here in
Louisville. I was part of a family.
(03:13):
My mom and dad got divorced whenI was about one.
My mom remarried my stepdad, whowas a police officer, and I was
about 3 and my dad remarried when I was about 6.
So I've always had two sets of parents and but I live with my
mom and my stepdad who was the police officer.
Yeah. You know, Mike, I only knew you
(03:34):
as a realtor and it's so funny, like, you know, you've had a
couple past lives before we got to know each other.
I do think, and people need to know if they're in the
Louisville area and need a house, that they need to reach
out because you're amazing. Again, I've only ever known you
as a realtor and you only hear great stuff about that.
But we do want to talk a little bit about kind of what drew you
to becoming a paramedic in termsof that as your first career?
(03:58):
Well, that was not what I was going to do at all.
Obviously, you know, my stepdad was a police officer and that's
what I wanted to be when I grew up from, as I can remember,
always I wanted to be a cop. I went from my big wheel days to
my bicycle days. I always, I made this blinking
(04:20):
with my eyes for the blue lightsbecause my stepdad was a slice
time detective and he had unmarked cars and in his grill
he had these blue lights. And when he pulled in the
driveway, if I was in the driveway, he turned those on and
I love them. Yeah, I would do that with my
eyes when we played Cops and robbers.
(04:40):
I love. And I made a siren with my
voice. I was always a cop.
And so the joke was that I was going to grow up to be a police
car. So I was always fascinated with
the lights and the sirens and, and all of that.
My plan was I was going to graduate high school and then I
(05:02):
was going to go into the Air Force.
And when I got out of the Air Force, I was going to be a cop.
And so I remember telling my stepdad at one point, though, I
saw an ambulance driving girl. I was like, oh, I think I want
to do that. He's like, no, you don't want to
do that. And I'm like, why not?
He's like, people throw up in your mouth and I'm like, OK, I'm
out. I'm good.
My mom didn't want me to be a cop.
She had him bring home some homicide pictures one time to
(05:26):
try and discourage me from doingthat to like scare me out of it
and I just loved it like these are.
Right. Wait, sign me up even more.
Yeah, I had those for years, up until probably five years ago.
I was going through some stuff. I said I should probably shred
these. Like if somebody goes through
these pictures when I die, they're going to be.
(05:47):
Like. Weird.
So I went into the Air Force andthen I got out and come home and
I ended up being a paramedic. Long story short, I got a job as
a dispatcher and just worked my way up from dispatcher to EMT to
medic to running the service OR.But wait, hold up, We were in
the Air Force too? I had no idea.
(06:09):
Yeah, I was in the Air Force too.
Yeah, I was AF16 crew chief in the Air Force.
I wanted to be a cop in the Air Force, but my depth perception
apparently was off. So it just qualified me from
being a cop in the Air Force. I mean, it hasn't really
affected my life at all, but I end up being a crew chief on the
F16, which is a really fun job. So I was a guy that did all of
(06:31):
this and did all the Yeah, and it was fun, but I didn't want to
do that in the civilian world when I got out, so.
Understandably, understandably, I love that about being a little
kid and being in the car, but you know how it all kind of
comes back around. That's amazing to kind of share
that. I appreciate that.
Yeah, I had to laugh cuz I'm like that's what it was for me.
Like I don't know, that would bethe best part.
(06:53):
If you did a ride along or something, I'd be like, Dad just
let me hit the sirens. Just let me hit the lights.
Absolutely. Like I knew where those buttons
were in every squad. I'm like, let's.
Go. So that made me laugh too.
I think what's really cool is wehaven't had, we've been in
search of finding somebody in the EMS world to come on here
because we really want to represent right and and we
(07:13):
haven't had this amazing opportunity.
So I'm so grateful that you're here.
And I wanted to ask if you couldjust describe maybe a little bit
of what a typical day or night, whatever that shift was for you
kind of looked like on the job? Well, you know, EMS is a
different animal than fire, police, EMS.
We are very independent and we think independently, which is
(07:36):
what makes you good at the job because when you're on the
scene, nothing's the same and everybody's signs and symptoms
and stuff are all different. So we have to think
independently on our feet. And so it's much different than
the fire service or the Police Department.
It's like when this happens, youput water on it or you put.
You. Know and so and we're like we're
all over the place, you know whether it's a stroke or a heart
(07:59):
attack or trauma and car accidents, it's always you
always have into each situation presents its own unique
challenges. I guess a day in the life or a
night in the life, because you work both shifts a lot of times
would be mostly sitting around. You do a lot of that now when I
work for the city I work for like our unit and our shift was
(08:20):
ranked like 5th busiest in the nation.
Oh wow. Here in Louisville, which was
surprising, a lot of it is wholehome stuff.
I've had a cold for three days, you know, sick babies, parents
don't know what to do with the kids or they call because
they're throwing up blood. And when we get there, we're
like, oh, well, you know, what did they have to eat today?
(08:40):
What I mean, they had cherry popsicles all day and so the
blood isn't blood, it's just cherry popsicles dealing with
fevers and delivering babies andthings like this.
So a lot of it is kind of not too exciting, will you say?
It's 80% kind of boring, not really needed EMS stuff and 20%
(09:00):
of some of the craziest stuff you could ever imagine in your
life. You know, you're in the middle
of a shooting situation and you're in a house or you're on
the street and people are screaming and yelling and
sometimes the police are there first.
They usually are. Now back when I was doing it,
they weren't. It was kind of our goal was to
beat the police to everything. Kind of a challenge we both had
against each other. Police are tracking us and we
(09:22):
try to become some of the stuff was crazy.
But when you're that type of person, that's what you thrive
in. You thrive in bringing some calm
to chaos. That's what I I love being once
I got my medic. I love that.
I love being the person that thepolice were there and the fire
department were there and they're all freaking out because
(09:42):
babies are dying and not breathing because they're
dealing with their own thing. And then when you walk in, it's
like the paramedics here, here. And I'm like, oh, yeah, give
them to me. I'm, you know, this is what I
do. And I did enjoy that part of it
to be able to bring some calm tosome of the most craziest things
that some people experience in their life.
Just being able to slow down andslow your speech down and, and
(10:06):
speak in a calm manner and you slow your cadence down.
The crazier it is, the slower I talked and the quieter that I've
got. I would get very monotone with
people just trying to calm them down most of the time.
Sometimes you just had to play the game and yell at them and
cuss at them and tie them down. And but the next, you know, once
(10:29):
you get them under control, thenyou're back into the.
OK, let's deal with the situation here minute by minute.
So it was a very, very emotionalmind kind of field.
And you just, you know, you dealwith a lot of stuff and you
just, you file it away because when I did it, there was no,
they were just starting to do some of the critical debriefing,
(10:52):
But we, we didn't have any of that.
You just sucked it up and you went to work.
I had partners that had kids andwe made kids that were had died
in the night or different things.
And your partner is losing theircrap and want to cuss on on your
your pot you. You can.
Actually I'm the. One that'll drop it.
OK, good. Yeah, when your partner's losing
(11:13):
their shit, partner has to like,calm down, I've got this.
You go walk, let me deal with this and they would do the same
thing for you for the most part,so.
Well, I appreciate you sharing all that.
And I was wondering like when you became a captain, that kind
of knowing people's, you know, what's a good fit or knowing
(11:34):
somebody has a family and they're showing up to a child
incident. Is that something that played
when you were kind of in that leadership role more, or was it
more the frustration of getting shifts covered that was tougher?
All of that and holding crews over because we don't have
enough crews to cover the run volume that was coming in and,
(11:55):
and people wanting to go home and go home to their families
or, you know, they've been on shift for 10 or 12 hours and
you're like, I can't let you go because we don't have enough
people here to cover what we have.
And that was struggle because I felt really bad because I've
been in that position. I've been that person that had
to get mandatory and you know, they're tired and they're
(12:16):
exhausted and what kind of medicare they showing up As for their
patients when they're tired and they're upset and they're angry.
And that was difficult too and difficult for them to manage as
well, because you want people toshow up at their best when other
people are really at their worst.
But pretty thing for me was whenwe would have a critical
incident, I didn't have any mechanisms.
(12:37):
I wanted to help people. I'd bring them in and talk with
them, but that's all we really had.
It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the
next run. But that wasn't the best thing.
You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people.
A lot of people leave the field or, or really become just
bitter, angry people. And I'm like, God, you need to
leave. Like you need to go do something
else. But you can't force somebody to
(12:59):
leave that field and go do something else.
But you can see it. I actually talk and I talk about
I'm a bit older and what my dad's experience was in terms of
mental health for officers to where we are now.
You know it's come right a long way it.
Wasn't. Well, yeah.
And so I was going to ask in terms of your experience, is
there was some reflection of like I wish we had, is there
(13:21):
something that you kind of can look at hindsight and it would
have been nice too? For sure, I wish we had been
able to have the mental health system set up when we had a
critical incident to be able to pull those crews off the street,
talk with somebody that night and you know, maybe a couple
days later I'll be able to give somebody a little bit of time
(13:43):
off. Like, OK, this was really bad.
There was an incident that I remember that really messed with
some of my employees was a really bad accident.
Several people burn up in the car and being the service in
this county, we, our service wasin charge of taking people to
the coroner's office. So my crews had to wait for the
fire department to cut the roof off and literally pry these
(14:04):
bodies out of this charred car that were still in their
seatbelts. You know, you see it, you can't
Unsee it, you can't UN smell it.Right.
So I wish that I had been able to do something for them then,
and there had been systems in place and mechanisms in place.
I think there are now. I still think there's probably a
long way to go. Oh.
Absolutely, Mike. Yeah.
(14:25):
Absolutely. In my opinion, you need staff
that are clinical workers. You need to be able to to pull
people off the street for eitherthe rest of the shift or even a
couple of days and force them tocome in and speak with a
therapist because a lot of people won't.
(14:45):
I've got to. Handle it in this field.
It's macho and you can take careof everything and not everybody
can. I thought I could and it took me
several years for me getting outof that world.
I remember when I left and I gotinto this, it was about two
weeks after I had left EMS supervisor role and I was just
like my shoulders. They just relaxed.
(15:07):
It was, it was physically obvious that a lot of stress was
off of me. Yeah.
And then it took several years after that.
I was having lunch with a friendof mine that and she was a medic
for years and a supervisor as well.
And she was talking about her PTSD.
And I never thought I had any ofthat.
And then it struck me that thereI do, I really do.
(15:30):
And that just made me a little emotional just there.
But there's no just no. And it's affected relationships.
It's affected, just it affects your life, but knowing that it's
there helps that. Community oh absolutely and you
know I I think you just. You just think you're crazy.
Well, and I think that it's thisidea of like, you know, I went
(15:52):
into this and solved things and it was part of the job.
Like this is what I signed up for and you don't?
Do it, who will? Well, and it's funny, like even
talking about, you know, those reactions of seeing people, your
employees, your peers that you care about and like, how are
they going to be for the people,their patients?
Like, I think that's such a first responder of like how we
(16:15):
want to show up our best and therealization of like our brains
are just not supposed to see things that we've seen.
And it's not, I think a weaknessor oh darn it, I'm one of the
ones that fell to PTSD. It's just again, it's just
there's again, we're not supposed to see a body charred
(16:36):
in a car accident. You know the things that you see
and there's some fun, there's some good stuff in the field
you. Know.
Absolutely. I was going to ask about that
earlier. I'm like.
Wait a minute, it. Doesn't smell good.
They usually don't. You know, it's let, let me just
(16:57):
say it's not a clean hospital situation, right?
The side of the road at 4:00 in the morning in the front seat of
the car, you know, or you're Ouch in somebody's house.
Babies don't wait. Babies are coming when they're
coming and you just got to catchthem and hope there aren't any
complications 'cause you're out in the field and you've got to
get somebody to the hospital. You know, my PTSD, it shows up
in Curtassum. I, I still do it.
(17:22):
I do it all the time. It's in my head all the time,
but now I know what it is and I'm like, stop thinking about
that guy. Like this thing happened.
Why is your mind going through these things and just driving
down the road and OK, I'm driving down the road, the car
coming in their way. What if they come across with a
meeting and come toward me? What am I going to do?
And because you've seen all of. That exactly.
(17:44):
The carnage that comes from that.
And so my mind thinks that the worst thing all the time.
I even say out loud sometimes. Now stop it.
Stop it. What are you doing?
This doesn't exist, Mike. Think of something else.
Think of something positive. And so it's affected
relationships. When my partner was going
through some stuff, you know, I always think somebody's going to
kill himself and I'm going to gofind them that I love.
(18:07):
And so that's where my mind goes.
It's always the worst case scenario.
I remember we had gotten into a fight.
He had said something. And so I went over to the house
and when I went over to his house, he went, I didn't see him
and I went upstairs and I didn'tsee him.
And I immediately in my head, I thought he's hung himself from
the rafters in the basement. And I was headed to the basement
and he was coming out of the bathroom like he was like, what
(18:29):
are you doing? And I'm like, you know, because
you've seen it, you know, and the family go through it.
It's just tough to let that stuff go.
I don't know that it'll ever go away, but at least I know what
it is now and I can identify it.I just want to thank you because
I think this is the first time we've had someone on here.
I mean, we've had incredible people on here who are open and
(18:50):
vulnerable, but I feel like thisis one of the first times that
you're giving the raw truths of like what goes on in in your
brain, right? Like what actually happens.
And I think this is going to be so incredibly powerful for a lot
of people who listen because what also happens right away
when you're like that PTFCI didn't know what it was.
It's like a really isolating feeling because you feel like
(19:11):
looking around like anybody elsefeeling this?
Anybody else? Having these thoughts, does
anybody else see that it's it goes back to you won't set with
your back to the door and you know like that right and where
that stuff comes from. Yes.
And I just think that people really to have you come on here
and to be so open and for othersto listen to this, like, I think
it's going to be incredibly powerful just because hopefully
(19:34):
one they realize I'm not alone. But then too, just to hear, OK,
there's some normalcy to this, right.
I see. Right.
Yeah. What up the front?
Trust me but. Yeah.
Absolutely. Growing up as a kid, it was the
same thing. My dad was a homicide detective.
So for one, he showed no emotionand that caused conflict between
(19:58):
my mom and him. But he saw, I saw some of the
pictures that he took, you know,of bodies and murder scenes.
And so he had that on him and hecarried that with him.
But that affected him that he couldn't show the emotion.
He had to tough it up and be, I mean, he started on the Police
Department in like 61. And so he retired in 9392.
(20:23):
Somewhere around there, he put on 30.
Some years, but I saw that affect their marriage as well.
So 1. He didn't show any emotion with
us. I mean, I mean, he did.
He wasn't cold. Yeah.
We never saw him emotional. Yeah.
We knew if like if he ever lost his temper like it was.
Yeah, yeah, A. Child and my mom was the
opposite. My mom was always yelling and
(20:45):
taking care of the kids so that was all on her.
But I remember her saying he doesn't show any emotion, like,
I need somebody to have some emotion.
And it ultimately led to their divorce.
And then they got remarried and after he retired.
But that took an effect on them.And it also affected how my mom
raised us. Like we grew up in a nice
neighborhood. I was just driving down there a
couple weeks ago showing a friend where I lived, like we
(21:06):
weren't supposed to go around the block, Definitely didn't go
into the woods when we were kidsbecause people would get us.
Because my mom also knew from him what happened to people
somewhat. And so she was very protective
of us. And we kind of, of course, we
went into the woods every chancewe had.
Of course I. Can did all of those things he
told us not to do, but. Like the good children that you
(21:28):
are, yeah. But those fears of what would
happen to us affected how she raised us as well.
And so. I think that that is an
important thing to kind of recognize.
Ashley and I kind of started this just being the kids of
first responders and our experience and having parents
that are a little bit hyper vigilant or parents telling you
(21:49):
stories that maybe not be age appropriate.
But again, it comes from such a like a safety.
Exactly, exactly. You know, somebody drowned in
that pool there. I'm like, can we just get to
school? Like we all have to hear you
just. Go.
Swimming about somebody drowningin a pool on my way to school,
(22:09):
my guy. I think it's just echoing what
you're saying. And when you have parents that
are in these jobs, they're just very hyper aware and that is
going to creep on their kids. Like that is just for sure
something that kind of leans itself to that kind of
parenting. Collateral damage.
Yeah, Speaking of having your stepdad be in law enforcement
(22:33):
and I appreciate you Sharon. You know, I'm going to be a cop
one day and obviously had some imprint.
Did he get to see you be an EMS and, and did that dynamic change
in terms of you guys being both in the same career or?
Not really. He never really discussed much
of it. I grew up hearing some of his
(22:54):
friends over the years, some of the other cops and detectives
that he knew that he'd killed themselves over the years.
And you worry as a kid, are my parents going to do that?
But we didn't really. He's like, he didn't want me to
do any of it, do anything else, but don't do this job.
He didn't really want me to be acop because he knew.
But that you weren't talking me out of it.
Just like any other first responders, kids that want to go
(23:17):
into the same field, you're not talking about they're going to
do it because that's what they want to do and so.
Yeah, I was wondering if we could circle back for a second,
do something standing out to me.So when you went through your
EMS career, the mental health portion you were saying wasn't
as strong, correct? It exists.
Yeah, yeah. And you had said, and I loved
(23:37):
it, you had said kind of forcingpeople to talk to somebody,
right. And something that I do in this
world, like right now is that I'm helping with a department,
we're helping trying to enforce neck up checkup.
So those once a year Wellness visits and we go back and forth.
They go back and forth. I'm do you make it mandatory?
Do you not? And like, my strong belief is,
yeah, you do you. Don't that most of them won't do
(24:00):
it and the ones that do will feel less than because they're
doing it. And some of these other stronger
people that can handle it, they don't do it because they're more
manly or they're tougher or theycan handle it and that's just
not the case. People need to be made to do
this, if nothing else, during critical, after critical events,
(24:20):
serious heavy duty stuff, because you see the serious
heavy duty stuff, they need to be made to talk with somebody
just to get it out of their heads.
We just lock it away. I remember my mom telling me one
time you've gotten really cold and I'm like, don't have it.
What are you talking about? I'm not cold.
But she was right. Like, to stay in that industry
(24:41):
for any amount of time, you haveto be able to put it away and
put it in box and lock that box.If not, you won't stay in it
long. You'll just drive yourself crazy
or you'll kill yourself. I mean, people do it all the
time in this field. I don't think the public
realizes how much suicide happens between police, fire and
EMS. Yeah.
Oh, Mike, we talk about it so much here.
(25:01):
It happened such. A reality.
So sad. And it's because you aren't
supposed to talk about it. You aren't made to talk about
it. It should be.
It should be part of the training, just like you have to
do continuing education every year.
It shouldn't be any different. It should be part of taking care
of people that do this job because.
(25:24):
I. Know.
If you don't, you run them into the ground and then and they do
crazy stuff. We see all the time the police,
the fire, EMS are being arrestedfor doing stupid stuff that.
And polls being. Doing Yeah.
And it's just, it's because thisyou take on so much for the
(25:45):
public and all the public sees is, oh, a policeman was doing
that. Well, crooked cop or you know,
crooked medic or bad firemen. But it's the job.
It's their fault at the end of the day because they made the
decision to do the wrong thing. However, they didn't get in this
industry to do the wrong thing. 99.9% of people didn't get in
(26:06):
this industry to take advantage of people.
It happens because of what the job does to me.
I just got goosebumps. I was just about to say Mike
might be my new favorite human and everyone listening is going
to be mad because I say that often, but he may have went to
#1 Because that was so powerful and it so refreshing.
Like to hear it and to also liketo hear this from the EMS side.
(26:30):
Well, that's something when Jennifer was talking at church
and she was talking about doing some of the work she does with
police. And I think it was mostly police
at the time. I think you were doing a little
bit with fire maybe. But I was like, hey, don't
forget the paramedics. And she's like, and it hadn't
even dawned on her at the time. I'm like, but we're right there,
like everybody knows police and fire and they get the most
(26:53):
attention. EMS has always been what we've
said, the red headed stepchildren.
Of course. As you can.
Relate. Like they don't get attention,
they don't get any accolades. If you watch the news media, the
news media doesn't, they'll say police or fire department.
They don't say the paramedics. They don't talk about that.
(27:13):
We're dealing with the human side of it.
We're taking care of the people.And it because it's only been
around since the early to mid 60s.
It doesn't have the recognition that it deserves.
It doesn't have the respect thatit deserves.
It doesn't have the professionalism that it
deserves. It's getting better.
A lot of fire departments are pulling EMS into the department,
(27:37):
and that's a numbers game because fire prevention has
gotten so good. They don't make as many fire
runs as they did. And so you can't justify bigger
budgets and more fire trucks andall this better equipment.
If your run volumes going down and you pull EMS in, it's
(27:57):
usually a different tax bracket.They've maxed out on their tax
base that they can for fire. You pull EMS in and that gives
them additional tax revenue thatthey can charge now.
And it justifies the equipment and things that they need
because of the run volume, because EMS run volume is just
astronauts all the time. So it's EMS is hugely
(28:22):
undervalued and underrated and under appreciated.
Can I say another population that I'm going to be honest,
like I had no clue that's where you started, was dispatchers?
Yeah. I think that's another
population they totally agree, really missed in a lot of this
stuff. And again, you were talking
about the same thing with high suicide rates and things like
(28:44):
that as well, so. Yeah, not me just paying because
I also feel that same way about corrections.
Yeah. Right.
Like, yeah. Filed those both are so true.
Yeah, and EMS is underpaid. Corrections is underpaid. 1000.
Percent underpaid. A lot of people don't think of
them as first responders, but they are.
(29:05):
They're dealing with especially dispatchers.
They're the ones that you call now.
You can tell the ones that have been there for a long time that
are bitter when you call. You can tell the ones that you
know aren't so bitter, but they need the same thing.
They need exactly they need to be made to talk to people to
because they're hearing it. They're not there, so it is
(29:26):
different. But I mean, they're hearing it
on the phone. They're hearing those cries for
help. They're hearing people dying on
the phone like. Exactly they're.
Hearing all that stuff. So it does affect them.
Absolutely. Well, and I want to go back up
for what you said too, like whenyou were a captain and people
having to stay late. And I'm like, I know it has to
(29:46):
come down sometimes to just a staffing issue.
And again, like people have sacrificed so much and it's
again, like we just did a horrible call.
Well, there's another one. And we don't have people.
We don't have people to. So you just got to go.
You know, that's that kind of stuff.
The revolving door of it as well.
Yeah, there's just not enough compensation and it's not as
(30:08):
much of the compensation when you're in it.
That's nice, but it's the other support that would.
Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I obviously we all
want more money like that. Who doesn't?
But sometimes it's about can youjust see me?
Can you just see that I'm struggling?
And support and those were some of the things that I tried to
(30:30):
implement. I'm like, you know, and I worked
for a private service the last several years.
That's where I started, that's where I ended.
But we were the 911 backup for the city.
We were the 911 across the riverfor two counties.
And so they're seeing the same stuff of.
Course. Let's just instead of throwing a
party where everybody gets drunklike stupid, why don't we do
some recognition? Why don't we give somebody a
(30:52):
little ribbon that they can wearon their uniform that for
whatever it is you made this critical run or you did
something, give them a ribbon, give them some recognition.
Even that $2.00 ribbon means something because it makes
somebody proud and it shows thatthey were recognized, what they
did mattered and that it seemed,you know, I made a run one time
(31:15):
in a house fire and we had two dead babies that we were trying
to resuscitate in the ambulance and the mom because there was
like 5 of them. And so we load up as many people
as we can in each ambulance because you only have a limited
amount and they all died, The pregnant mom died and but we
were all recognized. We're part of the fire
department at that time. And so we were all recognized
(31:36):
for that and we played off well,we don't need it, but it did
mean something it. Really.
Did they really did? Oh, they saw and they know what
we went through just to deal with that, so.
I love that because it kind of wraps up some of our other
episodes too in this because we've tried to hit on leadership
as well. I'm a big proponent of, I will
go to the lengths of like, I don't know, getting myself in
(31:58):
trouble for it. But I just think that there's
what you're saying is so true. And then we had Tom Rizzo on
here and we've had people on here and then and it's like,
what is the key to a good leaderin these organizations, right at
these departments? What I feel like you're saying,
and it keeps coming, just see your people.
Just show them that they're human and show that you care
about them. Right.
It's huge. My nickname was Captain Dick.
(32:20):
Just. Oh.
No, but. I followed the rules and I
didn't play any favorites, and when somebody did something, I
had to hold them accountable. But I was fair.
I didn't like doing that part ofthe job, but it was part of the
job. I liked going around and
checking on people like my When I was on duty, I wanted to see
every crew member that was on ship, at least one during the
(32:41):
night, and just check on them. They thought I was checking up
on them, you know, and getting them in trouble.
And there's all kinds of rumors out there that I'd written
people up for sleeping or something, and I never did that.
And then that never happened. But when I was gone, they missed
me because then they realized what Mike actually cared.
Some of them I didn't like at all all, but they were still
(33:04):
there for doing a job and I still cared.
Leadership is huge. Leadership training is almost
non existent. What they tend to do is take
somebody that's good on the street, teach them the books,
and then promote them. Just because you're a good medic
doesn't mean you're going to be a good supervisor, doesn't mean
you're a good boss, doesn't meanyou're going to be a good
director. There needs to be more and more
(33:25):
training for the leadership. Working leading people.
How to lead people, how to care about people, how to respond to
people in these situations because it all comes from the
top. The atmosphere of the whole
department starts at the very top.
Not the not just the chief, but also the leaders that are that
(33:48):
put the chief in place. Yes, it comes from them as well
and they don't know what's goingon and they don't have a clue
because they've never done the job.
I don't know how to fix it. I just know it needs to start at
the top. Well, I just want to say you
definitely sound like somebody grew up in a first responder
home when there's rules and we have to follow them, absolutely.
(34:09):
Just like, is it bad that I'm sitting over here like, oh, hit
send on this episode to everybody in the county right
now and I got even the higher ups like I'm hitting send on
this because it's just powerful and it's so true and people need
to hear it. And I think coming from someone
who's lived it and experienced it, like Jennifer and I kind of
talk about this all the time. We're like, we're so passionate
and we want to make change and we talk about these things, But
(34:31):
I think sometimes people look atus and they're like, no.
You don't know you're talking about.
No therapist, right? And but to have someone come on
and to be able to be so open andto say it, it's like that's the
change we hope we see is that people realize, no, this is this
is real and you have to listen. We have to learn from each other
to be able to grow. You know, we're talking about
leadership again. Leadership has to come out of
(34:53):
the ivory tower. I've seen it so much.
There was an old chief of policeof the county Police Department
that I was kind of new. Him and my dad were friends and
he put my dad in professional standards unit, which he hated
because he trusted him. But of course my dad want to be
there because you're investigating other officers,
right? You're not liked.
(35:15):
He didn't. Like doing that, but he was
trusted. But I remember he would get out.
The chief would go out and ride around and make runs every now
and then and talk with the people on the ground.
It's huge because you think theyforget you, and a lot of times
they do. They forget where they come
from. But when you're out and you're
(35:35):
checking on your folks, even me,I would try and find my cruise.
The joy that I got out is I would try and find them and
sneak up on them and then scare them.
I got the. Most and HR never got called
Mike. Right.
That was the most fun. I love that.
Just some of the things I did. Yeah.
(35:57):
Gives you a little bit of joy. People don't understand the way
we cope either. Yeah.
The things we say, the things wemake fun of that are aren't
appropriate. They're not publicly acceptable.
The games we play on each other and setting up each other's cars
and ambulances and the tricks that we play, it's a mechanism
to deal with this stuff, right? It's not appropriate for the
(36:20):
public, but it's important for those crews for people to have
some understanding of why they're doing it, of what they
see, of what they deal with on aregular basis.
It's crude and inappropriate andnothing you want to have around
your family during the holidays or people that don't understand
a way to decompress and let someof the stress off.
(36:41):
Oh yeah. Well, and I think that there's
just that healthy release in terms of like, we have to laugh
so we don't cry. You know, I think that that's
part of it. Before we wrap up too much, one
thing I, I want to ask you know my, again, I get to know you
personally and I'm very fortunate for that, but you are
such a positive, bright person and I just wanted to kind of ask
(37:02):
what do you feel like is something that kind of helps
you? I know you said you kind of
think of the worst, but I think to know you is to know somebody
that has a smile and is bright and optimistic.
Is there, I don't know, a secretthat you have or something that
has been helpful for you in terms of knowing you've had
those experience that keeps kindof moving forward?
(37:23):
Choosing my best friend has always said, you've been through
so much, how are you not bitter and angry?
And I'm like, I don't wanna be. I love that.
Bitter. And I love that too.
So I really make a choice. It's a conscious effort to not
be. Since I got into real estate,
I've got exposed to a lot of stuff.
(37:43):
Les Brown was the first speaker that I really heard that had me
in tears at the first conferencethat I ever went to.
And it was the first time I'd ever felt like I could be a
little bit more than just average.
I could believe in myself a little bit.
I could do more. And I trace it back to August
2014. It was a Sunday night listening
to Les Brown. And it really kind of changed my
life and just exposing myself tomore and more and more of that
(38:05):
positive people, being around positive people or the five
people that you surround yourself about, that's who you
are. Those things are being true.
And I didn't believe any of that.
I was never exposed to any of that.
Jennifer, you know, all of my families passed away.
Like I'm the last one, you know,like my mom, my dad, my stepdad,
my brother and sister, they've all passed away and young.
And so 2017 was a year where I was like, OK, I'm neither going
(38:30):
to spiral out as well or I've got to do something.
And so I started going back to church again and that's where we
met and trying to do more work on myself.
But the way that I deal with that is like, OK, had I been the
one to die, how would I have wanted my brother and sister or
family to live? I don't want them to live.
(38:51):
I wouldn't want them to live happy, full lives because that's
all we have. I want them to be bitter because
I was gone. And so that kind of I give
myself permission to be happy A.Beautiful walk with.
Grief. For me, it's a tribute to them
because I still get to live thislife until I can't.
And so I need to live it as bestI can and be the best person I
(39:11):
can because I think it's honoring the ones that can't.
I absolutely love that my thoughts making me have my
feeling I. Know me too, I'm not gonna lie
feeling that, yes. So I'll just cry right now.
And it's OK to cry. It is.
This is what I do with my clients.
When I did telehealth, I have a box of Kleenex everybody, and
(39:34):
I'm just virtually handing it out so.
Weird how life works too, like even in the midst of this
podcast and just like hearing these things that maybe like I
needed to here today, right? And that's the beauty of
bringing people together like this.
So I appreciate it. And Mike, I just appreciate you
being on and being so open. And honestly, I'm just like
blown away right now. I think my brain can't even keep
(39:54):
up. I'm just so honored to have met
you and to listen to you and. What was worth the wait for you,
Mike, That's for sure worth the wait.
Honored to be asked and someone wants to listen to me and talk
and because I'm a talker, which makes me good in real estate.
So again, if anybody needs a realtor in your Louisville, KY,
head up. And be a little crazy, but I
(40:15):
like to have fun and. All the good stuff you.
Know the other thing I, I, I think the previous career has
helped me in this career to be able to deal with people and
emotions and people, their money, but also to be able to
bring a sense of calm and thingsare spiring out.
It's like I hear myself that same my voice, my calf.
(40:36):
Down. I.
Was thinking that OK and we're going to get through it.
And in my mind, nobody's dying. It's OK if you're an house or
we'll find you another house. And thanks for having me on.
This has been a lot of fun, I really do.
Appreciate it. You're awesome.
Thank you and thank you for yourtime.
(40:56):
Jennifer, do you have any closing statements?
I just love Mike and I'm glad that we got to spend some time
with them. I'm just so, so thankful and we
want our listeners to always remember that when the call hits
home, Jennifer and I are here for you.
So thank you guys and thank you so much again, Mike.
We are pumped about this episodefor sure.
Thank you, guys. Bye.
Thank you.
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