January 14, 2026 • 30 mins
Hosts:
Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer
Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer
Episode Overview
It's the kickoff to 2026 for "When The Call Hits Home"! Jennifer and Ashlee reunite after the holidays each with a few survival stories to share about sick kids, hospital visits, and football games. This episode takes a deep dive into mental health in the world of first responders, focusing on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and the concept of Post Traumatic Growth.
Key Topics Discussed
- PTSD: Clinical & Real-World Definitions
- What PTSD means according to the diagnostic manual, how its definition and understanding have evolved.
- Early understanding of trauma as mainly war or abuse, contrasted with today’s broader view (cumulative events, “big T” and “little T” trauma).
- Common symptoms: not just flashbacks & nightmares also avoidance, numbness, irritability, concentration issues, and impulsivity.
- First Responders & Mental Health
- Unique challenges faced, stigma around seeking help, and how even “expected” work-related trauma can have serious mental health impacts.
- Barriers to mental health support historically, and how policy is slowly catching up (e.g. recognizing PTSD as a compensable injury).
- The Power of Resilience & Growth
- Resilience as “bouncing back” – Rocky Balboa style!
- Introduction to Post Traumatic Growth: moving beyond survival to genuine transformation.
- Five domains of post traumatic growth:
- Appreciation of life
- Relationships with others
- New possibilities
- Personal strength
- Spiritual change
- Real-world examples of first responders not just surviving trauma, but thriving and inspiring meaningful change in themselves and their communities.
- Family Matters
- How PTSD and growth impact the family dynamics of first responders; encouragement for family-wide healing and mutual support.
- Personal stories, including the hosts’ own experiences as children of first responders.
- Therapy: Beyond Diagnosis
- The importance of not just earning diagnoses, but focusing on recovery, growth, and positive psychology.
- Shout-outs to the transformative process of therapy and the courage it takes to seek help.
- A Symbolic Reflection
- The Japanese art of Kintsugi, repairing broken pottery with gold, serves as metaphor for healing: your flaws and brokenness can become strengths and sources of beauty.
Don’t Forget
- Shop the merch store for some WTCHH swag!
- Stay tuned for exciting announcements and new episodes in the new year.
- If this episode resonated with you, please share your thoughts and stories with us - we love hearing from you!
For questions or more info, reach out to the hosts, and remember: When the call hits home, Jennifer and Ashlee are here for you.
Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!
Follow Us:
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to When the Call Hits Home.
I'm Jennifer. I'm Ashley.
Welcome back everyone. It's been a while.
Happy 2026. We're here.
I saw something, I think it was like Larry David, that was like,
you can't say Happy New Year when it's this far.
You get 3 days in the new year to say Happy New Year.
But I'm not going to let that apply to us.
(00:21):
It's still the new year. And so I hope everybody's 2026
is starting off on a good note. How was your break?
A nightmare. What you mean it wasn't just
all? It wasn't just gingerbread
houses and Christmas presents. No, I had a kid that tested
positive for the flu, and then Ihad a husband that was in the
(00:45):
hospital with kidney stones. So it was a very medically
driven holiday. So thank you for all the nurses
and doctors that were working the day after.
Christmas, so life gets all of us, is what we're getting at.
Here it does. It does.
I did enjoy bringing in the new year and everybody's happy and
healthy and, you know, no complaints.
(01:07):
You know, a kid's sick when theydon't even want to, and
Christmas presents, they're justlike laying down at your lap.
It was so sad, so sad. But yeah, now I got to see my
family and that was great. But that was a bit of a bummer.
How about you? How was your holiday?
Same. I think the listeners just know
that my little heart is happy and for just literally just
(01:29):
because of football. Well, I was going to say we have
to acknowledge your voice is a little bit different because of
what's screaming at your bears the whole time.
Or is this a an illness so. It's a little bit both, right.
It might be a little bit of bothsome from that playoff game and
and unfortunately you have finally caught up to me.
Yeah, so many things are going around.
(01:50):
So I do apologize to some nasally a.
Little bit, I don't know that you need to apologize.
People should know this is how dedicated you are.
Like you're sick. You had a back-to-back busy day
yesterday, you have a busy day today and you still made time
for the podcast. We can enjoy your voice being a
little bit different because youare.
We are so committed to this podcast so.
(02:11):
Thank you. Go ahead with our topic for the
day. Well, we went back and forth and
by we went back and forth I had an idea and Ashley had a better
one. We are going to talk about post
traumatic stress disorder and post traumatic growth.
I mean, that's I think our plan for today, right?
Absolutely. Both very important to talk
(02:33):
about. I don't really think that we
have really hit on too much of it.
No, I don't think in like drill down way.
I mean, obviously, I think it's a term that we've used before,
and we've had really brave guests that have come on and
shared some of their experience with those 4 letters.
But yeah, I don't know that we've really used our clinical
brain to kind of talk about that.
(02:54):
What I think is really cool about this episode too is not
only is it going to be very educational and we have
correlations to it, but I think what's cool is if our listeners
can learn from this, but then apply it, apply it to some of
our older episodes. Or.
I think what will happen naturally is that it will kind
of connect the dots for people who have been listening and
keeping up with us, which can bereally powerful, you know, for.
(03:15):
Sure, for sure. So just to talk a little bit
about what post traumatic stressdisorder is, it is our
diagnostic manual. That's our fancy word for the
book that Ashley and I spent a lot of time in school having to
study. And all mental health diagnosis
is come with like parameters. It's not, you know, you have a
(03:35):
runny nose so you have to have acold.
You know, it's guidelines and you have to check multiple
boxes. I want to talk about when I was
in school, you know, what post traumatic stress disorder look
like. And then talk a little bit when
you were in school because there's a little bit of a time
gap when we were working on our degrees.
(03:56):
I don't really know what you're talking about right now, but.
Well, thanks. I like same age here, we're the
same OK of. Course, of course, again, what
post traumatic stress disorder, what that is, is again a
disorder. And I think the the trauma is a
big part of that. And what trauma is.
And I know that something that we've talked about before in
here, but trauma is an experience that you have no
(04:18):
control over. And trauma is an experience that
you have that can make you feel powerless in a situation.
And again, something that you don't have any control over.
You know, a traumatic experienceis for people that experience a
tornado. You know, we don't have any
control over the weather. A traumatic experience could be
a car accident. It could be a multitude of
(04:39):
things. And obviously, when I was in
school, that trauma was really felt a lot more limited to being
in a war zone, being in a battleground or an experience
of, again, I'm going to go back to this power dynamic, but
somebody taking power away from somebody.
So somebody being abused or being like sexually abused by
(05:00):
somebody, you know, that is a traumatic experience.
And so obviously, this has been in the diagnostic manual for
time. And yet when I was learning
about it, it was, whoa, this is a big diagnosis.
Yeah. And it really, I don't want to
say it was limited to that, but that's a little bit more where
we would park kind of this diagnosis.
(05:22):
I don't think that we were talking about it and the way
that maybe you and I would talk about it today.
So what are your thoughts about that or?
Yeah. So initially my thoughts are
that, yes, kind of like that same thing, like when you were
first, I don't know, I guess I would say that when I was
younger and I learned about it, I learned about it through that
lens of kind of that big deal, right?
Like the veterans and all that. That's always where your brain
(05:46):
kind of goes straight to. But I would have to agree that
as we've kind of progressed in schools and I'm more social work
side of things. So in my schooling, like what I
had come to learn is it doesn't actually have to be as big as we
think it is. So I'll never forget one of my
first classes when I learned about PTSD and like all of that,
right? They said to me, in terms of
(06:07):
trauma, trauma is an event that leaves a mark on your life,
right? And I was like, what?
Like that short thing, but then it is so true, right?
And so we could develop these things from events that maybe I
don't think are as intense, but to somebody else they are,
right. So the, the scope of it now is
much larger, right? It's much larger and I think we
(06:29):
focus a lot more now on cumulative.
Events. Then like the single event or
saying, oh, the night sweats, the terror, the, you know,
really heavy on that. We're now we're like, no, like
sometimes it's as simple as avoidance.
You're definitely moving into what I wanted to talk about
next, which is to back that up. You know, I think again, we
(06:50):
thought of trauma as, you know, this again, somebody that had
been in a war zone or experienced a massive amount of
abuse. And I think that, you know, as
time has progressed and researchhas continued to happen, we
recognize that again, I think sometimes what therapist
language would use would be like, oh, a big T trauma or a
(07:12):
little T trauma. And I think this is true of our
first responders. You know, sometimes it's just
like, well, that's just the job.So, you know, that can't be or
I'm just responding to after theaccident has happened, like I
didn't. The three things with that too
is this is a life threatening event, a personal assault or
witnessing a traumatic event. So, you know, seeing those
(07:37):
things. And then I think too, it's about
a symptom cluster. And so again, when I was saying
it, when we started, it's just like, it's not just one of
these, but a cumulative thing. And I think that again, a lot of
the, the number one is going to be flashbacks, nightmares,
intrusive thoughts. I think that's what we think of
(07:58):
when we think of post traumatic stress disorder.
We think, well, I have to be having flashbacks.
Or again, there was just this one event that haunts me instead
of saying like, no, some other symptoms are avoidance, exactly
what you're saying. Like we're avoiding a certain
part of town, we're avoiding everybody.
We just are really isolating ourselves.
(08:18):
Negative thoughts and feelings. And sometimes that negative
thoughts and feelings can be no feelings.
I see a lot of people feel I'm numb, I feel nothing.
You know, here was this great experience, this great vacation.
And I was just like, you know, like the that.
And obviously there's negative thoughts and feelings as well.
(08:39):
You know, people can just be feeling those.
I'm in paradise, but who cares was, you know, negative feelings
and then the hyper vigilance or like the being really like
aroused all the time in terms ofpaying attention.
That's if I am in a crowd, I have to have where all the exits
are to the point where it's justlike I'm not even going to enjoy
(09:00):
maybe this concert that I'm at. I need to be so hyper of where
and then a lot of irritability shows up in that.
A big thing too is the trouble concentrating a lot of my first
responders as I can't remember anything I'm forgetting.
Yes. And again, that is just very
different symptom than I'm having nightmares, right?
(09:21):
Correct, right. And like the, I love how you
brought up the kind of reactivity stuff.
So talking about like the hyper vigilance and everything.
Obviously when we work with first responders, that's
prevalent. But for me too, when I feel like
I find with my first responders who struggle with this that we
don't focus enough on maybe, or maybe it is growing, right?
But in my world, like for me, itwas a, Oh my goodness, this
(09:44):
moment was self-destructive behavior or like impulsivity,
like just making choices where I'm like, whoa, what's going on
there? You know, when somebody isn't
typically like that and then they're doing that.
And like beforehand, I would nothave even thought about that
being a symptom of it. Well, I think you're exactly
right. And I think this is great that
(10:04):
we're having this conversation because again, like my training
was like, Oh well, that person'sgot depression or that person
needs to be screened for ADHD. This not paying attention, you
know, those weren't necessarily like big symptom checklist that
you're exploring with post traumatic stress disorder.
And so I appreciate you just letting me kind of go through
(10:27):
each one and explain it and I hope that makes sense.
But those are again, like more things that we see and I think
giving our first responders so much credit and I hope this is
what you'll transition to talk alittle bit to about.
But when you are extremely resilient and you do have
incredible skills, you're not necessarily your brain has a lot
(10:50):
of elasticity and doesn't have to go to those really outside
the margin symptoms. Sometimes it is just like, I am
just pissed off all the time. And I'm just saying you're
pissed off all the time and thatmeans that you have PTSD, right?
Right. But, you know, there are some
things to kind of pay attention to.
(11:11):
Just those anger outbursts of like, I'm getting pissed over
silly things or again, that trouble concentration.
Somebody told me something. What did they tell me?
Why can't I remember? Yeah, that becomes really
frustrating as well. Go ahead.
Ashley and I don't want to go onlike a a soapbox or whatever
that's called, but the truth is,right?
Isn't it wild to you? I'm having a moment, a moment of
(11:33):
just reflection of like, we sometimes get pushed back for
assistance towards first responders and their mental
health. I think it's grown a lot.
I'm not looking to be any sort of way here.
I'm just saying that when we read these things, right?
Or like when we're talking aboutthem and you're saying all that.
And I in my head am like, Oh yeah, like I know first
(11:55):
responders who struggle with allthat, right off the top of my
head, right? And it's, it's one of those
things of like, man. And yet sometimes we still, we
still struggle with this notion of like getting them the help
they need, their jobs. Imagine doing their job and
having those symptoms. This is what I guess I'm trying
to say. It's incredibly powerful to to
struggle with that, right. And and then to also have the
(12:15):
pressures of a job of a first responder.
No, I definitely agree with that.
And you know, this idea of a PTSD diagnosis is more about our
brains reaction. A healthy reaction to unhealthy
things like this is our brains kind of wanting to protect
(12:39):
itself. And that's not a bad thing.
Like it's incredible how the brain wants to protect us,
except there's just certain parts of the brain that doesn't
have all the information and canreally have us react in these
negative ways. And the other thing too is, and
I like what you said about the cumulative piece just to kind
(13:01):
of, I guess I don't know if people are interested in going
more deep about therapy and. Bring it there.
Why not, you know? Like that, but there are other
diagnosis that people can have before post traumatic stress.
So we have something called likeacute stress disorder and that's
somebody who experiences something traumatic, but they
(13:23):
are able to receive services really quickly.
And I mean actually I think that's your mission and what
you're doing with these agencies.
If we're saying, hey, let's not let a 20 year career go through
before we start really talking and unpacking, like you go on a
bad call, like let's be kind of unpacking that so we don't have
to carry it in our duffel with us.
(13:44):
I love that and I like because it's very, very true.
I think that we use we don't, wecan like that's the cool thing
about us is we can go down into that because this is what we do
and it is important for people to recognize, right.
There is a lot out there. We focus in on certain things on
episodes here and there, but like there is a lot more out
there. But absolutely like the acute
stress and things like that, it's very real and it's, you
(14:05):
know, like it's just as important.
And in our world, these are the things that pop up for us a lot.
And I don't know, I'm having a amoment of like being proud too,
because like you said, like thatmission of just, I think that's
why we do what we call neck up check UPS, right?
Like, I think that's why we are trying to stay on top and in
front of things from even developing.
And we know that that works withthe biology of the brain, and we
(14:28):
know how to get that brain rolling to hopefully prevent
some of these things from happening.
Well, with that, I think I go again, back to being young and
dumb, but being in school and like, learning about this.
And I'm hoping, you know, this is more of older stuff.
And like, you know, we have comea long way.
(14:49):
But I think in some ways, a PTSDdiagnosis felt a little like a
death sentence. Like, it felt a little like, OK,
well, here's your sticker. And this is going to be stuck on
you for the rest of your life. And there's no hope and there's
no getting better. And you'll just have flashbacks
and nightmares and intrusive thoughts and they're just going
(15:10):
to give you tons of medication. And that's your only solution.
So why don't you talk a little bit more about why and how this
isn't necessarily that? Yeah, no, for sure.
And again, I feel like my poor brain right now is taking us
down different paths. I'm going to get on a positive
topic and I just want a quick mention with that when you say
that. I do think that's extremely
(15:32):
true. And and also it's kind of like
pushed societal norms wise too in terms of I don't even know if
that's the exact word I was justlooking for.
But in terms of like, we just now, at least in Wisconsin
passed something that says TSD is legitimate and you should be
compensated if the career is thereason you have developed that.
(15:54):
But we're talking about that just happening.
So, so, yeah, we as a society say, hey, this diagnosis is all
these things daunting, bad, you know, like hopeless, like
everything you just said. And yet also we're like, and yet
you don't deserve anything or weshouldn't really recognize it or
give you the help, which is wild, you know what I mean?
(16:15):
But yeah, it's, I mean, it's changing and it that's very
positive and I'm excited about that.
But I, I just felt compelled to say that because kind of mind
blowing to me that that is what a lot of people think about it.
Really. Everyone knows it's like, oh,
that was so bad. And yet nothing really, you
know, however individually as individuals who do struggle with
these things, we've talked, you've talked because you're
(16:35):
freaking incredible about resiliency.
So being. Resilient.
You know what I love? I have to call it out here, my
dad for my dad. Shout out to my dad.
See if he listens to this episode.
You know, it's like a game. He loves that about you.
He always has to. He's always like, Jennifer loves
resiliency, Ashley, and I'm like, I know he's like, she's
(16:57):
good at him, like I know, but itjust cracks me up because he
loves to say that. I know.
It's so funny. Thanks, but.
Right. We talk about that.
What is the, I guess the simplest thing that we talk
about when people, we ask people, right?
Even when you present, you ask people what does resiliency
mean? What do we typically get the
bouncing back? Yes, yes, yes.
(17:17):
The bouncing back, you know, I had a group of people told me it
was the Rocky Balboa. Like, you know, you get knocked
out and you get back up, you know?
I kind of like that, I'm not gonna lie, but that's just okay.
That's my mentality. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but that is, and all of that is so incredibly true.
But then there's also this notion of post traumatic growth.
(17:40):
OK, so talk about that. What is post traumatic?
Right. So it is a positive
psychological transformation that occurs as a result of
struggling with highly challenging life circumstances
or trauma. OK.
What's really important about itis that unlike resilience, which
is again that notion of bouncingback, post traumatic growth
(18:00):
represents qualitative change. So it's that person individually
developing beyond their pre trauma level.
So that pre trauma level of functioning, when we have post
traumatic growth, we actually gobeyond that.
So what I say sometimes to clients is like, it's not about
surviving, it's about thriving, right?
(18:20):
Like it's or maybe I mean, does it feel like more than that
because growth is in there? No, I mean, I think there's
truth to that. When I think of post traumatic
growth, again, I can be wrong, But when I think of that, I do
like how you said it. I also think about it as a way
of like taking aspects like kindof taking your whole life prior
and making a transformation, right?
(18:42):
But like breaking it down, right?
So again, clinically nerding outhere for a second, there's
typically 5 domains of growth. Oh, OK, OK.
I like pains. I know, right?
So growth typically manifests inthese five domains, which is
appreciation of life, relationships with others, new
possibilities, personal strength, and spiritual change.
(19:06):
Girl, I need to be using all those right now.
Like, yeah, yeah. But when you read this, when you
read it, hear it, you can't helpbut be like, that's kind of a
lot. Yeah, yeah.
Right. And I think that in my opinion
as a clinician, like to say thatyou have post traumatic growth
to me would be to start working on any of it, right?
To start, right One thing at a time, sometimes right?
(19:28):
Because that could be very overwhelming.
Well, for sure. And again, I think this is one
that definitely matches up, right, which is, and it was kind
of your first like PTSD symptom is this idea of avoidance right?
And when we avoid, we can start withdrawing and avoiding people.
And what's the second domain there?
(19:49):
The second one is relationship with others.
Yeah. Right.
And so I think that to your point like hey, if we just were
to explore that, you know, is there one person I feel like I
can call if I need it? Is there somebody that?
I can send memes to, you know, is there.
Yeah, yeah. Those kind of things just start
(20:11):
and then, you know, building of like I'd like to spend time with
this person or you know, we do aZoom call if maybe they don't
live in the same area as me or you know, whatever that is.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I was doing for
this episode specifically, I wasdoing a little bit of like
research post traumatic growth in terms of first responders.
(20:33):
I mean, that's pretty much what we we do, right?
And one of the biggest things I said and what I've loved is that
even when you and I were talkingabout it, we were already on it,
is that post traumatic growth and PTSD, they often coexist.
So for example, there was a study that I found with
firefighters in which over 75% reported experiencing at least
like high intensity positive changes after related trauma
(20:55):
from the drop. That's a pretty big percentage.
Yeah. Right.
So like I, I think we often lookat PTSD, we look at the, the
negatives of it, but that I meanliterally that stat is that 75%
again high intensity positive changes after job related
trauma, right? Like we don't spend enough time
focusing on the facts of this post traumatic growth that can
(21:17):
develop from trauma, right? Well, and I think, you know, not
to give a shameless plug to therapy as we do, but, you know,
I think sometimes these experiences and and we have some
reluctancy to go talk to somebody and yeah, but you know,
when we are able to go and thoseplaces and find that and often
times in those critical calls, that brings us in to see
(21:40):
somebody. I know a lot of the people I
work with Ohio, but actually I want to work on these other two
things and maybe have nothing todo with that.
And that's a true growth. You know, it's like we get to
heal, you know, the thing that brought us in, but also go to
those deeper little rules and grow deeper in our humanity.
Yeah. I think about the people that we
(22:01):
have had on here, OK. And I just think about how many
people actually do experience some post traumatic growth, but
not even recognize that that's what it is.
Oh, I like that one. Yeah, yeah, right, because
there's so much truth that, and maybe I fall into this sometimes
too, like listening to them, hearing the story.
And I just go back to resiliency, right?
(22:22):
I just go back to like, gosh, they really are resilient, which
is true. I'm not going to take that away.
But how many of them like have. And I got to give a shout out
here. He's going to love it.
He's going to love it to to likeJeremy Davis, right?
Like an incredible soul who has had trauma but has literally
taken like a different appreciation to life and and
(22:42):
personal strength going further in school right?
Doing what they can to now give back to the same community in
which that trauma actually came from.
That's a great example and I know that there's many more of
that in terms of people that have been here and kind of share
those stories, you know, so I'm sharing about their spiritual
growth and there's that part of their aspect of them and, and
(23:06):
different things. So I think you're right that
there's we've been very lucky tohave a lot of guests.
You know, I like that different generation between resiliency,
that is my favorite and recognizing, hey, like there's
more opportunities here than just surviving, thriving.
There's incredible opportunitiesto grow.
And I think about that too, is in terms of like our families,
(23:28):
like I will never tell anybody how to parent.
That's, you know, not my business.
But I will say in terms of parenting and, and I, I try this
as a parent is like whatever I want for my kid, I got to be
able to want for myself. And so I think it's like, oh,
you know, if you want your kid to be able to go through
(23:50):
something hard and grow from it,like you have to be willing to
do those things. And how incredibly impactful
that can be for a family, You know, a family that has somebody
suffering with PTSD symptoms is impactful on the family.
You know, families function likecogs and a watch and like, if
(24:13):
somebody's not doing OK, they'regoing to withdraw from that
movement within the family. And you know, I don't, I don't
think our first responders have families to not be involved with
them. I'm having like a I'm having my
own moment. Yeah, in the oof, sounds a
little interesting for me. I don't know why that just hit
me. It's harder.
Just today I presented on what it was like to be a child of a
(24:36):
first responder. So I have this presentation that
I give and I don't know why my brain is just in this moment of
thinking about my story and whatI give at that presentation.
And kind of like my dad, our relationship where things have
been, where has come to. And then you just saying that
there's so much like growth thathas that has happened within my
(24:56):
own family, like my relationshipwith my dad, the changes like he
has made after even retirement, right?
And like, but also as a whole, and I think that's incredibly
powerful. Like we're sitting here talking
about these five domains of growth and you saying like
absolutely the family does follow, right?
So if that individual first responder is doing that, that's
(25:19):
also helping the family do that as well.
Probably. You know, like, I hope I'm
making sense because for me, I'mhaving like that moment right
now. So sometimes you're processing
in your brain as it's just spitting out.
Yeah, well, I think that's beautiful and I appreciate you
sharing that. And I, you know, I, I really
want to applaud the first responders who come and meet
(25:42):
with me and I'm sure meet with other therapists that are like,
you know, I'm here because I seemyself getting really short with
my kids. And I don't want that like, you
know, like that. That can be a real wake up call
from them of like, you know, I don't want to fuss up my kid
when they're just doing kids stuff, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. I can't help but to think how we
(26:05):
can continue to connect these concepts to things that are
going to come, you know, like different stories and and things
that we have pulled from other people to be able to identify.
I just think now it's going to be very cool.
I'm going to be probably on thisfor a little bit of time
everybody, because I'm already thinking about well, how has
post traumatic growth developed within, you know, some of the
(26:28):
some of the guests that we're having on this show coming up?
Right, right. Well, I'm excited for that as
well, and I do hope that we continue the dialogue.
I think that diagnostic manual that I had to study inside and
out, like I'm grateful for that.I think that's a part of the
honor that it is to get to be a therapist and hold a license.
(26:48):
But I also think that sometimes I'll speak for, you know, my
field, you know, we're a little bit different.
You know, I'm not so interested in diagnosis.
Diagnosis are important and and helpful to know like, hey, what
direction we need to go. I'm more here for what's the the
post traumatic growth? Like?
What is what are we doing to getbetter?
(27:09):
And so I think that I hope that we continue the conversation
about the growth piece of this. I mean, obviously we're going to
talk about the negative stuff. And, you know, I think that
positive psychology is a important thing.
Like what's working, what's getting better?
Like, I think that that's important stuff.
Well, and also just to give credit where credit is due,
(27:32):
because post traumatic growth isa transformative process.
It's not an easy one. What it means when someone is
able to do that is they're putting in the work.
Of course, of course. You know, like they're, they're
putting in the typically they had something that shook them to
the core and now they have to rebuild a new system of beliefs
and, and, and priorities. And maybe you know, and then
that's that is hard. Right.
(27:53):
That's kind of saying life, whatlife of what we knew before is
now having to be changed to moveforward.
Yeah, Well, and the opportunity,and I think that this is
something, you know, we talk about.
It's right over my shoulder here.
You know, this idea that in Japan, broken objects are often
replaced with gold. The flaw is seen as a unique
(28:14):
piece of the object's history, which adds to its beauty.
So I think it's also that reality of like, we can feel
broken, our pieces can be all over the floor, but there's
still an opportunity to come back together and have parts of
us that shine instead of just we're broken on the floor and we
can't be put back. Together, Yeah, I love this
(28:37):
very, very much. And I'm like trying to be
careful because right there evenI'm like, it's just that to me
because we still have so many people who do feel that they are
that broken on the floor piece. Yeah.
And yet they don't have to be. Right, right.
And I think that there's some people that are broken on the
floor and they think if they canglue somebody else back
(28:57):
together, that will help them, that would help them feel
unbroken, like drop. Yeah.
But I am glad that you came up with this topic for us today in
the new year. What else for today?
And. I think that I just want people
to take this advice in today, look it up themselves, maybe
reflect on some things. Yeah, whoever is listening to
(29:19):
us, yes, let us know because it's it is really powerful.
I think that obviously we have trying to be strategic about
where we're placing this episode.
And so I hope people catch on tothose queues as well.
You're all about these little Easter eggs for people about the
Easter eggs I. Am I'm all about getting people
(29:40):
to just hang tight, Yeah. But yeah, now we're excited for
when the call hits home in the new year.
And I think this was great to talk about this.
Absolutely. So thank you everyone.
Here's the 2026. Let's roll, Let's do it.
Go. There.
Yeah, well, also give me a little bit of slack until.
Till after this run. In the Super Bowl, right?
(30:01):
And then Super Bowl. OK, then Doc G will lock back in
a little bit on Cloud 9 right now.
OK, everybody wasn't expecting this.
I wasn't expecting it. So some grace here.
But we are very excited and we just want everyone to remember
that. Of course, when the call hits
home, Jennifer and I are here for you.
Welcome back to When the Call Hits Home.
I'm Jennifer. I'm Ashley.
Welcome back everyone. It's been a while.
Happy 2026. We're here.
I saw something, I think it was like Larry David, that was like,
you can't say Happy New Year when it's this far.
You get 3 days in the new year to say Happy New Year.
But I'm not going to let that apply to us.
(00:21):
It's still the new year. And so I hope everybody's 2026
is starting off on a good note. How was your break?
A nightmare. What you mean it wasn't just
all? It wasn't just gingerbread
houses and Christmas presents. No, I had a kid that tested
positive for the flu, and then Ihad a husband that was in the
(00:45):
hospital with kidney stones. So it was a very medically
driven holiday. So thank you for all the nurses
and doctors that were working the day after.
Christmas, so life gets all of us, is what we're getting at.
Here it does. It does.
I did enjoy bringing in the new year and everybody's happy and
healthy and, you know, no complaints.
(01:07):
You know, a kid's sick when theydon't even want to, and
Christmas presents, they're justlike laying down at your lap.
It was so sad, so sad. But yeah, now I got to see my
family and that was great. But that was a bit of a bummer.
How about you? How was your holiday?
Same. I think the listeners just know
that my little heart is happy and for just literally just
(01:29):
because of football. Well, I was going to say we have
to acknowledge your voice is a little bit different because of
what's screaming at your bears the whole time.
Or is this a an illness so. It's a little bit both, right.
It might be a little bit of bothsome from that playoff game and
and unfortunately you have finally caught up to me.
Yeah, so many things are going around.
(01:50):
So I do apologize to some nasally a.
Little bit, I don't know that you need to apologize.
People should know this is how dedicated you are.
Like you're sick. You had a back-to-back busy day
yesterday, you have a busy day today and you still made time
for the podcast. We can enjoy your voice being a
little bit different because youare.
We are so committed to this podcast so.
(02:11):
Thank you. Go ahead with our topic for the
day. Well, we went back and forth and
by we went back and forth I had an idea and Ashley had a better
one. We are going to talk about post
traumatic stress disorder and post traumatic growth.
I mean, that's I think our plan for today, right?
Absolutely. Both very important to talk
(02:33):
about. I don't really think that we
have really hit on too much of it.
No, I don't think in like drill down way.
I mean, obviously, I think it's a term that we've used before,
and we've had really brave guests that have come on and
shared some of their experience with those 4 letters.
But yeah, I don't know that we've really used our clinical
brain to kind of talk about that.
(02:54):
What I think is really cool about this episode too is not
only is it going to be very educational and we have
correlations to it, but I think what's cool is if our listeners
can learn from this, but then apply it, apply it to some of
our older episodes. Or.
I think what will happen naturally is that it will kind
of connect the dots for people who have been listening and
keeping up with us, which can bereally powerful, you know, for.
(03:15):
Sure, for sure. So just to talk a little bit
about what post traumatic stressdisorder is, it is our
diagnostic manual. That's our fancy word for the
book that Ashley and I spent a lot of time in school having to
study. And all mental health diagnosis
is come with like parameters. It's not, you know, you have a
(03:35):
runny nose so you have to have acold.
You know, it's guidelines and you have to check multiple
boxes. I want to talk about when I was
in school, you know, what post traumatic stress disorder look
like. And then talk a little bit when
you were in school because there's a little bit of a time
gap when we were working on our degrees.
(03:56):
I don't really know what you're talking about right now, but.
Well, thanks. I like same age here, we're the
same OK of. Course, of course, again, what
post traumatic stress disorder, what that is, is again a
disorder. And I think the the trauma is a
big part of that. And what trauma is.
And I know that something that we've talked about before in
here, but trauma is an experience that you have no
(04:18):
control over. And trauma is an experience that
you have that can make you feel powerless in a situation.
And again, something that you don't have any control over.
You know, a traumatic experienceis for people that experience a
tornado. You know, we don't have any
control over the weather. A traumatic experience could be
a car accident. It could be a multitude of
(04:39):
things. And obviously, when I was in
school, that trauma was really felt a lot more limited to being
in a war zone, being in a battleground or an experience
of, again, I'm going to go back to this power dynamic, but
somebody taking power away from somebody.
So somebody being abused or being like sexually abused by
(05:00):
somebody, you know, that is a traumatic experience.
And so obviously, this has been in the diagnostic manual for
time. And yet when I was learning
about it, it was, whoa, this is a big diagnosis.
Yeah. And it really, I don't want to
say it was limited to that, but that's a little bit more where
we would park kind of this diagnosis.
(05:22):
I don't think that we were talking about it and the way
that maybe you and I would talk about it today.
So what are your thoughts about that or?
Yeah. So initially my thoughts are
that, yes, kind of like that same thing, like when you were
first, I don't know, I guess I would say that when I was
younger and I learned about it, I learned about it through that
lens of kind of that big deal, right?
Like the veterans and all that. That's always where your brain
(05:46):
kind of goes straight to. But I would have to agree that
as we've kind of progressed in schools and I'm more social work
side of things. So in my schooling, like what I
had come to learn is it doesn't actually have to be as big as we
think it is. So I'll never forget one of my
first classes when I learned about PTSD and like all of that,
right? They said to me, in terms of
(06:07):
trauma, trauma is an event that leaves a mark on your life,
right? And I was like, what?
Like that short thing, but then it is so true, right?
And so we could develop these things from events that maybe I
don't think are as intense, but to somebody else they are,
right. So the, the scope of it now is
much larger, right? It's much larger and I think we
(06:29):
focus a lot more now on cumulative.
Events. Then like the single event or
saying, oh, the night sweats, the terror, the, you know,
really heavy on that. We're now we're like, no, like
sometimes it's as simple as avoidance.
You're definitely moving into what I wanted to talk about
next, which is to back that up. You know, I think again, we
(06:50):
thought of trauma as, you know, this again, somebody that had
been in a war zone or experienced a massive amount of
abuse. And I think that, you know, as
time has progressed and researchhas continued to happen, we
recognize that again, I think sometimes what therapist
language would use would be like, oh, a big T trauma or a
(07:12):
little T trauma. And I think this is true of our
first responders. You know, sometimes it's just
like, well, that's just the job.So, you know, that can't be or
I'm just responding to after theaccident has happened, like I
didn't. The three things with that too
is this is a life threatening event, a personal assault or
witnessing a traumatic event. So, you know, seeing those
(07:37):
things. And then I think too, it's about
a symptom cluster. And so again, when I was saying
it, when we started, it's just like, it's not just one of
these, but a cumulative thing. And I think that again, a lot of
the, the number one is going to be flashbacks, nightmares,
intrusive thoughts. I think that's what we think of
(07:58):
when we think of post traumatic stress disorder.
We think, well, I have to be having flashbacks.
Or again, there was just this one event that haunts me instead
of saying like, no, some other symptoms are avoidance, exactly
what you're saying. Like we're avoiding a certain
part of town, we're avoiding everybody.
We just are really isolating ourselves.
(08:18):
Negative thoughts and feelings. And sometimes that negative
thoughts and feelings can be no feelings.
I see a lot of people feel I'm numb, I feel nothing.
You know, here was this great experience, this great vacation.
And I was just like, you know, like the that.
And obviously there's negative thoughts and feelings as well.
(08:39):
You know, people can just be feeling those.
I'm in paradise, but who cares was, you know, negative feelings
and then the hyper vigilance or like the being really like
aroused all the time in terms ofpaying attention.
That's if I am in a crowd, I have to have where all the exits
are to the point where it's justlike I'm not even going to enjoy
(09:00):
maybe this concert that I'm at. I need to be so hyper of where
and then a lot of irritability shows up in that.
A big thing too is the trouble concentrating a lot of my first
responders as I can't remember anything I'm forgetting.
Yes. And again, that is just very
different symptom than I'm having nightmares, right?
(09:21):
Correct, right. And like the, I love how you
brought up the kind of reactivity stuff.
So talking about like the hyper vigilance and everything.
Obviously when we work with first responders, that's
prevalent. But for me too, when I feel like
I find with my first responders who struggle with this that we
don't focus enough on maybe, or maybe it is growing, right?
But in my world, like for me, itwas a, Oh my goodness, this
(09:44):
moment was self-destructive behavior or like impulsivity,
like just making choices where I'm like, whoa, what's going on
there? You know, when somebody isn't
typically like that and then they're doing that.
And like beforehand, I would nothave even thought about that
being a symptom of it. Well, I think you're exactly
right. And I think this is great that
(10:04):
we're having this conversation because again, like my training
was like, Oh well, that person'sgot depression or that person
needs to be screened for ADHD. This not paying attention, you
know, those weren't necessarily like big symptom checklist that
you're exploring with post traumatic stress disorder.
And so I appreciate you just letting me kind of go through
(10:27):
each one and explain it and I hope that makes sense.
But those are again, like more things that we see and I think
giving our first responders so much credit and I hope this is
what you'll transition to talk alittle bit to about.
But when you are extremely resilient and you do have
incredible skills, you're not necessarily your brain has a lot
(10:50):
of elasticity and doesn't have to go to those really outside
the margin symptoms. Sometimes it is just like, I am
just pissed off all the time. And I'm just saying you're
pissed off all the time and thatmeans that you have PTSD, right?
Right. But, you know, there are some
things to kind of pay attention to.
(11:11):
Just those anger outbursts of like, I'm getting pissed over
silly things or again, that trouble concentration.
Somebody told me something. What did they tell me?
Why can't I remember? Yeah, that becomes really
frustrating as well. Go ahead.
Ashley and I don't want to go onlike a a soapbox or whatever
that's called, but the truth is,right?
Isn't it wild to you? I'm having a moment, a moment of
(11:33):
just reflection of like, we sometimes get pushed back for
assistance towards first responders and their mental
health. I think it's grown a lot.
I'm not looking to be any sort of way here.
I'm just saying that when we read these things, right?
Or like when we're talking aboutthem and you're saying all that.
And I in my head am like, Oh yeah, like I know first
(11:55):
responders who struggle with allthat, right off the top of my
head, right? And it's, it's one of those
things of like, man. And yet sometimes we still, we
still struggle with this notion of like getting them the help
they need, their jobs. Imagine doing their job and
having those symptoms. This is what I guess I'm trying
to say. It's incredibly powerful to to
struggle with that, right. And and then to also have the
(12:15):
pressures of a job of a first responder.
No, I definitely agree with that.
And you know, this idea of a PTSD diagnosis is more about our
brains reaction. A healthy reaction to unhealthy
things like this is our brains kind of wanting to protect
(12:39):
itself. And that's not a bad thing.
Like it's incredible how the brain wants to protect us,
except there's just certain parts of the brain that doesn't
have all the information and canreally have us react in these
negative ways. And the other thing too is, and
I like what you said about the cumulative piece just to kind
(13:01):
of, I guess I don't know if people are interested in going
more deep about therapy and. Bring it there.
Why not, you know? Like that, but there are other
diagnosis that people can have before post traumatic stress.
So we have something called likeacute stress disorder and that's
somebody who experiences something traumatic, but they
(13:23):
are able to receive services really quickly.
And I mean actually I think that's your mission and what
you're doing with these agencies.
If we're saying, hey, let's not let a 20 year career go through
before we start really talking and unpacking, like you go on a
bad call, like let's be kind of unpacking that so we don't have
to carry it in our duffel with us.
(13:44):
I love that and I like because it's very, very true.
I think that we use we don't, wecan like that's the cool thing
about us is we can go down into that because this is what we do
and it is important for people to recognize, right.
There is a lot out there. We focus in on certain things on
episodes here and there, but like there is a lot more out
there. But absolutely like the acute
stress and things like that, it's very real and it's, you
(14:05):
know, like it's just as important.
And in our world, these are the things that pop up for us a lot.
And I don't know, I'm having a amoment of like being proud too,
because like you said, like thatmission of just, I think that's
why we do what we call neck up check UPS, right?
Like, I think that's why we are trying to stay on top and in
front of things from even developing.
And we know that that works withthe biology of the brain, and we
(14:28):
know how to get that brain rolling to hopefully prevent
some of these things from happening.
Well, with that, I think I go again, back to being young and
dumb, but being in school and like, learning about this.
And I'm hoping, you know, this is more of older stuff.
And like, you know, we have comea long way.
(14:49):
But I think in some ways, a PTSDdiagnosis felt a little like a
death sentence. Like, it felt a little like, OK,
well, here's your sticker. And this is going to be stuck on
you for the rest of your life. And there's no hope and there's
no getting better. And you'll just have flashbacks
and nightmares and intrusive thoughts and they're just going
(15:10):
to give you tons of medication. And that's your only solution.
So why don't you talk a little bit more about why and how this
isn't necessarily that? Yeah, no, for sure.
And again, I feel like my poor brain right now is taking us
down different paths. I'm going to get on a positive
topic and I just want a quick mention with that when you say
that. I do think that's extremely
(15:32):
true. And and also it's kind of like
pushed societal norms wise too in terms of I don't even know if
that's the exact word I was justlooking for.
But in terms of like, we just now, at least in Wisconsin
passed something that says TSD is legitimate and you should be
compensated if the career is thereason you have developed that.
(15:54):
But we're talking about that just happening.
So, so, yeah, we as a society say, hey, this diagnosis is all
these things daunting, bad, you know, like hopeless, like
everything you just said. And yet also we're like, and yet
you don't deserve anything or weshouldn't really recognize it or
give you the help, which is wild, you know what I mean?
(16:15):
But yeah, it's, I mean, it's changing and it that's very
positive and I'm excited about that.
But I, I just felt compelled to say that because kind of mind
blowing to me that that is what a lot of people think about it.
Really. Everyone knows it's like, oh,
that was so bad. And yet nothing really, you
know, however individually as individuals who do struggle with
these things, we've talked, you've talked because you're
(16:35):
freaking incredible about resiliency.
So being. Resilient.
You know what I love? I have to call it out here, my
dad for my dad. Shout out to my dad.
See if he listens to this episode.
You know, it's like a game. He loves that about you.
He always has to. He's always like, Jennifer loves
resiliency, Ashley, and I'm like, I know he's like, she's
(16:57):
good at him, like I know, but itjust cracks me up because he
loves to say that. I know.
It's so funny. Thanks, but.
Right. We talk about that.
What is the, I guess the simplest thing that we talk
about when people, we ask people, right?
Even when you present, you ask people what does resiliency
mean? What do we typically get the
bouncing back? Yes, yes, yes.
(17:17):
The bouncing back, you know, I had a group of people told me it
was the Rocky Balboa. Like, you know, you get knocked
out and you get back up, you know?
I kind of like that, I'm not gonna lie, but that's just okay.
That's my mentality. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, but that is, and all of that is so incredibly true.
But then there's also this notion of post traumatic growth.
(17:40):
OK, so talk about that. What is post traumatic?
Right. So it is a positive
psychological transformation that occurs as a result of
struggling with highly challenging life circumstances
or trauma. OK.
What's really important about itis that unlike resilience, which
is again that notion of bouncingback, post traumatic growth
(18:00):
represents qualitative change. So it's that person individually
developing beyond their pre trauma level.
So that pre trauma level of functioning, when we have post
traumatic growth, we actually gobeyond that.
So what I say sometimes to clients is like, it's not about
surviving, it's about thriving, right?
(18:20):
Like it's or maybe I mean, does it feel like more than that
because growth is in there? No, I mean, I think there's
truth to that. When I think of post traumatic
growth, again, I can be wrong, But when I think of that, I do
like how you said it. I also think about it as a way
of like taking aspects like kindof taking your whole life prior
and making a transformation, right?
(18:42):
But like breaking it down, right?
So again, clinically nerding outhere for a second, there's
typically 5 domains of growth. Oh, OK, OK.
I like pains. I know, right?
So growth typically manifests inthese five domains, which is
appreciation of life, relationships with others, new
possibilities, personal strength, and spiritual change.
(19:06):
Girl, I need to be using all those right now.
Like, yeah, yeah. But when you read this, when you
read it, hear it, you can't helpbut be like, that's kind of a
lot. Yeah, yeah.
Right. And I think that in my opinion
as a clinician, like to say thatyou have post traumatic growth
to me would be to start working on any of it, right?
To start, right One thing at a time, sometimes right?
(19:28):
Because that could be very overwhelming.
Well, for sure. And again, I think this is one
that definitely matches up, right, which is, and it was kind
of your first like PTSD symptom is this idea of avoidance right?
And when we avoid, we can start withdrawing and avoiding people.
And what's the second domain there?
(19:49):
The second one is relationship with others.
Yeah. Right.
And so I think that to your point like hey, if we just were
to explore that, you know, is there one person I feel like I
can call if I need it? Is there somebody that?
I can send memes to, you know, is there.
Yeah, yeah. Those kind of things just start
(20:11):
and then, you know, building of like I'd like to spend time with
this person or you know, we do aZoom call if maybe they don't
live in the same area as me or you know, whatever that is.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I was doing for
this episode specifically, I wasdoing a little bit of like
research post traumatic growth in terms of first responders.
(20:33):
I mean, that's pretty much what we we do, right?
And one of the biggest things I said and what I've loved is that
even when you and I were talkingabout it, we were already on it,
is that post traumatic growth and PTSD, they often coexist.
So for example, there was a study that I found with
firefighters in which over 75% reported experiencing at least
like high intensity positive changes after related trauma
(20:55):
from the drop. That's a pretty big percentage.
Yeah. Right.
So like I, I think we often lookat PTSD, we look at the, the
negatives of it, but that I meanliterally that stat is that 75%
again high intensity positive changes after job related
trauma, right? Like we don't spend enough time
focusing on the facts of this post traumatic growth that can
(21:17):
develop from trauma, right? Well, and I think, you know, not
to give a shameless plug to therapy as we do, but, you know,
I think sometimes these experiences and and we have some
reluctancy to go talk to somebody and yeah, but you know,
when we are able to go and thoseplaces and find that and often
times in those critical calls, that brings us in to see
(21:40):
somebody. I know a lot of the people I
work with Ohio, but actually I want to work on these other two
things and maybe have nothing todo with that.
And that's a true growth. You know, it's like we get to
heal, you know, the thing that brought us in, but also go to
those deeper little rules and grow deeper in our humanity.
Yeah. I think about the people that we
(22:01):
have had on here, OK. And I just think about how many
people actually do experience some post traumatic growth, but
not even recognize that that's what it is.
Oh, I like that one. Yeah, yeah, right, because
there's so much truth that, and maybe I fall into this sometimes
too, like listening to them, hearing the story.
And I just go back to resiliency, right?
(22:22):
I just go back to like, gosh, they really are resilient, which
is true. I'm not going to take that away.
But how many of them like have. And I got to give a shout out
here. He's going to love it.
He's going to love it to to likeJeremy Davis, right?
Like an incredible soul who has had trauma but has literally
taken like a different appreciation to life and and
(22:42):
personal strength going further in school right?
Doing what they can to now give back to the same community in
which that trauma actually came from.
That's a great example and I know that there's many more of
that in terms of people that have been here and kind of share
those stories, you know, so I'm sharing about their spiritual
growth and there's that part of their aspect of them and, and
(23:06):
different things. So I think you're right that
there's we've been very lucky tohave a lot of guests.
You know, I like that different generation between resiliency,
that is my favorite and recognizing, hey, like there's
more opportunities here than just surviving, thriving.
There's incredible opportunitiesto grow.
And I think about that too, is in terms of like our families,
(23:28):
like I will never tell anybody how to parent.
That's, you know, not my business.
But I will say in terms of parenting and, and I, I try this
as a parent is like whatever I want for my kid, I got to be
able to want for myself. And so I think it's like, oh,
you know, if you want your kid to be able to go through
(23:50):
something hard and grow from it,like you have to be willing to
do those things. And how incredibly impactful
that can be for a family, You know, a family that has somebody
suffering with PTSD symptoms is impactful on the family.
You know, families function likecogs and a watch and like, if
(24:13):
somebody's not doing OK, they'regoing to withdraw from that
movement within the family. And you know, I don't, I don't
think our first responders have families to not be involved with
them. I'm having like a I'm having my
own moment. Yeah, in the oof, sounds a
little interesting for me. I don't know why that just hit
me. It's harder.
Just today I presented on what it was like to be a child of a
(24:36):
first responder. So I have this presentation that
I give and I don't know why my brain is just in this moment of
thinking about my story and whatI give at that presentation.
And kind of like my dad, our relationship where things have
been, where has come to. And then you just saying that
there's so much like growth thathas that has happened within my
(24:56):
own family, like my relationshipwith my dad, the changes like he
has made after even retirement, right?
And like, but also as a whole, and I think that's incredibly
powerful. Like we're sitting here talking
about these five domains of growth and you saying like
absolutely the family does follow, right?
So if that individual first responder is doing that, that's
(25:19):
also helping the family do that as well.
Probably. You know, like, I hope I'm
making sense because for me, I'mhaving like that moment right
now. So sometimes you're processing
in your brain as it's just spitting out.
Yeah, well, I think that's beautiful and I appreciate you
sharing that. And I, you know, I, I really
want to applaud the first responders who come and meet
(25:42):
with me and I'm sure meet with other therapists that are like,
you know, I'm here because I seemyself getting really short with
my kids. And I don't want that like, you
know, like that. That can be a real wake up call
from them of like, you know, I don't want to fuss up my kid
when they're just doing kids stuff, you know?
Yeah, absolutely. I can't help but to think how we
(26:05):
can continue to connect these concepts to things that are
going to come, you know, like different stories and and things
that we have pulled from other people to be able to identify.
I just think now it's going to be very cool.
I'm going to be probably on thisfor a little bit of time
everybody, because I'm already thinking about well, how has
post traumatic growth developed within, you know, some of the
(26:28):
some of the guests that we're having on this show coming up?
Right, right. Well, I'm excited for that as
well, and I do hope that we continue the dialogue.
I think that diagnostic manual that I had to study inside and
out, like I'm grateful for that.I think that's a part of the
honor that it is to get to be a therapist and hold a license.
(26:48):
But I also think that sometimes I'll speak for, you know, my
field, you know, we're a little bit different.
You know, I'm not so interested in diagnosis.
Diagnosis are important and and helpful to know like, hey, what
direction we need to go. I'm more here for what's the the
post traumatic growth? Like?
What is what are we doing to getbetter?
(27:09):
And so I think that I hope that we continue the conversation
about the growth piece of this. I mean, obviously we're going to
talk about the negative stuff. And, you know, I think that
positive psychology is a important thing.
Like what's working, what's getting better?
Like, I think that that's important stuff.
Well, and also just to give credit where credit is due,
(27:32):
because post traumatic growth isa transformative process.
It's not an easy one. What it means when someone is
able to do that is they're putting in the work.
Of course, of course. You know, like they're, they're
putting in the typically they had something that shook them to
the core and now they have to rebuild a new system of beliefs
and, and, and priorities. And maybe you know, and then
that's that is hard. Right.
(27:53):
That's kind of saying life, whatlife of what we knew before is
now having to be changed to moveforward.
Yeah, Well, and the opportunity,and I think that this is
something, you know, we talk about.
It's right over my shoulder here.
You know, this idea that in Japan, broken objects are often
replaced with gold. The flaw is seen as a unique
(28:14):
piece of the object's history, which adds to its beauty.
So I think it's also that reality of like, we can feel
broken, our pieces can be all over the floor, but there's
still an opportunity to come back together and have parts of
us that shine instead of just we're broken on the floor and we
can't be put back. Together, Yeah, I love this
(28:37):
very, very much. And I'm like trying to be
careful because right there evenI'm like, it's just that to me
because we still have so many people who do feel that they are
that broken on the floor piece. Yeah.
And yet they don't have to be. Right, right.
And I think that there's some people that are broken on the
floor and they think if they canglue somebody else back
(28:57):
together, that will help them, that would help them feel
unbroken, like drop. Yeah.
But I am glad that you came up with this topic for us today in
the new year. What else for today?
And. I think that I just want people
to take this advice in today, look it up themselves, maybe
reflect on some things. Yeah, whoever is listening to
(29:19):
us, yes, let us know because it's it is really powerful.
I think that obviously we have trying to be strategic about
where we're placing this episode.
And so I hope people catch on tothose queues as well.
You're all about these little Easter eggs for people about the
Easter eggs I. Am I'm all about getting people
(29:40):
to just hang tight, Yeah. But yeah, now we're excited for
when the call hits home in the new year.
And I think this was great to talk about this.
Absolutely. So thank you everyone.
Here's the 2026. Let's roll, Let's do it.
Go. There.
Yeah, well, also give me a little bit of slack until.
Till after this run. In the Super Bowl, right?
(30:01):
And then Super Bowl. OK, then Doc G will lock back in
a little bit on Cloud 9 right now.
OK, everybody wasn't expecting this.
I wasn't expecting it. So some grace here.
But we are very excited and we just want everyone to remember
that. Of course, when the call hits
home, Jennifer and I are here for you.
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