December 3, 2025 • 22 mins
Jennifer [00:00:00]:
First responders will say, I was just in the parking lot at Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large physical reaction. That's because that amygdala talk about not being online, that amygdala has this kind of memory and this connection immediately with their body. And so EMDR does this great job and I say speaking amane, speaking to our amygdala through, through our physical body. You know, with emdr, you're doing a lot of check ins of notice what you notice in your body doing body scan, starting of the top of your head to the bottom of your toes. You know what do you notice? Do you notice tension? Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness? Do you notice nothing? Like all those things are ways in which we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go offline. To use your. Hi, welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer.
Ashlee [00:00:55]:
And I'm Ashlee. We hope everybody had a really great Thanksgiving.
Jennifer [00:00:59]:
Yes, we do. We do hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving and we appreciate you checking out our thankful episode. And it's just us again. We are doing things a little bit different here lately, but I like it when it's just you and I sometimes.
Ashlee [00:01:13]:
I know I kind of love it. I think people forget like everyone has lives and of course scheduling and things like that. But we are blessed. I mean we are super blessed. We have some really cool things lined up and honestly, like, it's really nice over the holidays not to have to worry about 1 million schedules. And just us too.
Jennifer [00:01:31]:
That is the truth. I was on a text message chain about people trying to meet and I'm like, we're really going to try to meet before January. No, like that's just not going to happen. So. And we have a specific thing we wanted to talk about today, which is emdr.
Ashlee [00:01:49]:
Yeah. And I think that I want to preference something that came to me when we were trying to brainstorm. Hey, what do we talk about today? Right? Like what do we give our audience? Something that I think we fall short on when we're talking about therapy in general is that a lot of people have one thought process and if there is something that I can say is that both of us are making waves and changing the stigma, especially with first responders coming to therapy. I still almost every day get the cliche of like, well, I thought therapy was, hey, tell me how this makes you feel over and over again. The whole come in my office, all my officers, my firefighters too. But I feel like my firefighters give me A little bit less grief. But hey, my police for sure will be like, oh, where's the big comfy couch that I get to lay on? And I'm like, okay, this, this is not, you know, But I've also been doing a heck of a lot of ride alongs, which is beautiful because one thing I always strive for in this, I guess, this career is that I never want to stop Lear from them too. So one way I do that is to ride along with them.
Ashlee [00:02:53]:
And in that ride along, I am doing nothing clinically. Of course, if we're stuck in a squad together for eight hours, I'm going to talk to you because I'm just a talker, but I'm there to learn from you. I'm there to just be excited about what's going on. I'm not there to diagnose or evaluate or what have you the person I'm riding with. And I get that every single time. They'll be like, doc G is coming with me. Oh, they must think I need an evaluation. They must think.
Ashlee [00:03:17]:
And I'm like, what? Like, that is not true. So that does often lead me to this discussion of what do you think therapy is? And while there's some truth to therapy being a lot about talking.
Jennifer [00:03:28]:
Right.
Ashlee [00:03:28]:
And a lot about processing, digging, connecting things, there's also different ways that we do therapy now. And I think we could spend six years, Jennifer, like, talking about all these things. But the one thing that I know both you and I kind of specialize in you more so than me. So I'm going to pass this mic a lot is emdr. And I think it's important to talk about. And I think this episode, we're just going to bring it to light and then probably expand upon it in like a follow up episode, only because there is so much. But why don't we break down what that is? I think it's important for people to know that there's different things out there that we can do. EMDR being one of them.
Jennifer [00:04:05]:
Yeah. Well, I think first is like, what is EMDR stand for? Yes. Which is eye movement desuscitation reprocessing. I always struggle.
Ashlee [00:04:14]:
Okay, I was just about to say I can never. I can never say that either again.
Jennifer [00:04:20]:
Yes. And the Francis Shapiro is the. I wouldn't call her the inventor, I guess the discoverer of EMDR and kind of move things forward with
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
First responders will say I was just in the parking lot at
Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large
physical reaction. That's because that amygdala
talked about not being online, that amygdala has this kind of
memory and this connection immediately with our body.
And so EMDR does this great job and I could say speaking aim and
(00:23):
E speaking to our amygdala through our physical body.
You know, with EMDR you're doinga lot of check insurance of
notice what you notice in your body doing body scancering of
the top of your head to the bottom of your toes.
You know, what do you notice? Do you notice tension?
Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness?
Do you notice nothing like all those things are ways in which
(00:46):
we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go offline to use
your. Hi, welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley, we hope
everybody had a really great Thanksgiving.
Yes, we do. We do hope everyone has a good
Thanksgiving and we appreciate you checking out our thankful
episode. And it's just us again.
(01:08):
We are doing things a little bitdifferent here lately, but I
like it when it's just you and Iso I.
Know, I kind of love it. I think people forget like
everyone has lives and of coursescheduling and things like that.
But we are blessed. I mean we are super blessed.
We have some really cool things lined up and honestly like it's
really nice over the holidays not to have to worry about
1,000,000 schedules and just us 2.
(01:31):
That is the truth. I was on a text message chain
about people trying to meet, andI'm like, we're really going to
try to meet before January. No, like that's just not going
to happen. So and we have a specific thing
we wanted to talk about today, which is EMDR.
Yeah, And I think that I want topreference something that came
(01:52):
to me when we were trying to brainstorm, hey, what do we talk
about today, right? Like what do we give our
audience? Something that I think we fall
short on when we're talking about therapy in general is that
a lot of people have one thoughtprocess.
And if there is something that Ican say is that both of us are
making waves and changing the stigma, especially when first
responders coming to therapy, I still almost every day get the
(02:15):
cliche of like, well, I thought therapy was, Hey, tell me how
this makes you feel over and over again.
The whole come in my all my officers, my firefighters too.
But I feel like my firefighters give me a little bit less grief.
But hey, my police for sure willbe like, oh, where's the big
comfy couch that I get to lay on?
(02:35):
And I'm like, OK, this, this is not, you know, but I've also
been doing a heck of a lot of ride alongs, which is beautiful
because one thing I always strive for in this, I guess this
career is that I never want to stop learning from them too.
So one way I do that is to ride along with them.
And in that ride along, I am doing nothing clinically.
(02:56):
Of course, if we're stuck in a squad together for 8 hours, I'm
going to talk to you because I'mjust a talker.
But I'm there to learn from you.I'm there to just be excited
about what's going on. I'm not there to diagnose or
evaluate or what have you, the person I'm riding with.
And I get that every single time.
They'll be like, Doc G is comingwith me.
Oh, they must think. I need an evaluation.
(03:17):
They must think. And I'm like.
What? Like that is not true.
So that does often lead me to this discussion of what do you
think therapy is? And while there's some truth to
therapy being a lot about talking right, and a lot about
processing, digging, connecting things, there's also different
ways that we do therapy now. And I think we could spend 6
years, Jennifer, like talking about all these things.
(03:39):
But the one thing that I know both you and I kind of
specialize in you more so than me.
So I'm going to pass this mic onEMDR.
And I think it's important to talk about.
And I think this episode, we're just going to bring it to light
and then probably expand upon itand like a follow up episode
only because there is so much. But why don't we breakdown what
(03:59):
that is? I think it's important for
people to know that there's different things out there that
we can do, EMDR being one of them.
Yeah, well, I think first is like what does EMDR stand for,
which is eye movement, desuscitation, reprocessing.
I always struggle. OK, I was just about to say I
can never. I can never say that either.
Like. I literally can't.
(04:20):
Yes. And the Francis Shapiro is the,
I wouldn't call her the inventor, I guess the discoverer
of EMDR and kind of move things forward with this therapeutic
intervention. She said she wished it had come
up with a different name and I kind of wished that she had as
well. But it really is just a
(04:40):
intervention that therapist can use that is a little bit
different than talk therapy. I don't know, actually, I feel
like we started over. He made me reflect like, gosh,
what do people really do think that therapy is?
But I'll be specific and talk about EMDR.
So how I explain EMDR to clientsis that it is a way in which the
(05:06):
brain naturally heals itself. So in the eye movement, it's
replicating our REM sleep, our deepest cycle of sleep.
REM sleep is when your eyes are rapidly moving back and forth.
That is the rapid eye movement that happens in REM sleep, which
is a deep sleep cycle. A lot of our first responders
(05:28):
don't get into REM sleep becauseof which makes it really
difficult. And you know, something I think
is great about the human body and a lot of ways it's so
healthy and can heal itself. So when I think like, oh, if I
cut at my finger, I'm not thinking, OK, I need to clot
blood and and grow a scab, grow new skin that my body just
(05:52):
automatically does that. And our brains has that ability
to when we rest, we sleep, we pre process our experience of
the day. And unfortunately, sometimes
there's experiences that we havethat maybe we don't get a good
night's sleep afterwards. Or there's experiences that we
have, especially when we're first responders that, you know,
nobody should really have to go see or experience these things.
(06:13):
There's no place in our brain toput some of the bores that
people experience when their first responders.
And what EMDR is doing is just taking that information.
Clients can do different things like the eye movement, which is
the replication of the REM sleep.
There's also this fancy word called bilateral stimulation.
It is just where both hemispheres of the brain are
(06:37):
working. OK, have I gotten too technical?
Like are. You.
No, you're doing a great job. I always giggle when I hear
because when I explain it and I go, I don't know why, I go to
the run sleep part and I talk about the eyes shifting.
I'm always waiting for someone to be like, wait, what?
We're like freaking freak out about that or be like our eyes
shift. But yeah.
I think you're doing and I I think that's always important.
(06:58):
You know, when I tell people that about sleep, I'm quick to
say I'm not putting you to sleep, I'm not hypnotizing you.
You're awake and conscious throughout this experience and
aimed yours been in practice for, you know, over decades now
I want to say like 30. I was going to say I know it's
over 30 now. Probably getting closer to 40
(07:21):
and technologies come a lot further.
So as much as people do eye movement, there's what we call
tappers, a real clinical word, but it's just this thing that
will vibrate in your hand and goback and forth.
I do a lot of virtual sessions, so I use eye movement a lot with
virtual sessions, but I also have auditorium.
So it will go into one headphone, then the next
(07:44):
headphone if people have headphones.
And and then there's also tactical tapping where I just
have people like cross their arms and we'll tap and I get to
tap with them, which is I get some free AVR sometimes when I'm
doing that with clients, You know what, I work with clients
in terms of like a traumatic experience and there can be one
(08:05):
call that's a traumatic experience.
And sometimes those are some experiences that as therapists
will call little T's. They're small traumatic
experiences. And sometimes those little T's
can be a little bit harder than the big T's.
If we maybe had an experience with adult that made us feel
less than or if we maybe had a thing at school that made, you
(08:28):
know, school was hard and we felt left out in groups.
Like there's just these experiences that we have when
we're little and we don't have all the information that are if
you think about our hemispheres,our left and our right and our
our thinking and our feeling when we're little, we can get
that really confused. And so EMDR can be a great
(08:48):
resource sometimes for, you know, my smart brain knows that
I'm loved and care for. And yet sometimes in my heart, I
don't feel that way. And EMDR is a great tool that
can kind of get those online together.
It is a research intervention. This is not just some therapist
came together and like, hey, let's try this.
(09:10):
There's lots of research that shows that the as an
intervention can be really helpful.
Yeah, and I think it's importantto to kind of do a little
throwback to one of our very first episodes that probably
hasn't gotten the attention thatit needs just because we were
really brand new babies to this whole podcast thing.
But when we had Doctor Coit on here, she did a fabulous job,
(09:30):
like talking to us about how thebrain works, right, and what
happens to the brain when we're in high stress situations.
And I think that it's important when we're talking about EMDR to
remember that prefrontal cortex,it's kind of a little bit
offline. It's not fully there when we are
in a high stress situation, which makes it hard for us to
actually reprocess things in a way that we typically would if
(09:52):
it was a normal event. And so I always tell my guys and
girls that come to me that in that moment, like your brain is
still taking everything in typically through your senses,
but the piercing it together is kind of hard.
And it'll take that situation and it'll store it away in your
long term memory and what I callthe red file encampment.
And it'll just keep doing that if we don't take it back out and
reprocess it with our prefrontalcortex back online, right?
(10:14):
To have those facts of everything that happened around
us with that emotional side and to work through it that way.
But I think that's something really important to recognize is
that literally the brain is doing this to us when we're in
these careers, and it's something that we can't
necessarily help. It's just how we respond.
Well, and I think to to that whole point, you know, something
I talk a lot about with clients is that EMDR is really working
(10:38):
to speak to our amygdala to that, you know, survival part of
our brain, which is not our frontal cortex.
It's not that smart decision making self.
It is just about survival, whichI think, you know, it's kind of
cool that like our is wired in away that survival.
I mean, that's got to be the most important thing, not always
(10:59):
about our happiness or feeling good.
It's about surviving and that connection with the amygdala and
our physical body. You know, if I'm running from a
Saber toothed tiger, I can't digest my Bologna sandwich.
Yes, you know, I need to feel myheart racing.
I'm going to feel sweaty in casesomebody grabs me.
Like all these things and we have these physical responses
(11:21):
and that memory, right? And so that's why I think
sometimes first responders will say, I was just in the parking
lot at Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large
physical reaction. That's because that amygdala
talked about not being online, that amygdala has this kind of
memory and this connection immediately with our body.
(11:43):
And so EMDR does this great job and I could say speaking aim and
knee speaking to our amygdala through our physical body.
You know, with EMDR you're doinga lot of check insurance of
notice what you notice in your body doing body scan starting at
the top of your head to the bottom of your toes.
You know, what do you notice? Do you notice tension?
(12:03):
Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness?
Do you notice nothing? Like all those things are are
ways in which we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go
offline, to use your kind of metaphor and allow that stuff to
kind of be processed in a way that says I don't have to have a
physical response in the parkinglot.
(12:25):
Like I can say like, hey, I'm safe.
I'm OK, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And why do you and I, I know I'm, I'm bouncing off E here,
but I do find that EMDR is like my first responders really take
to EMDR. I happen to think that baseline
like not going anything significant here.
(12:47):
I like that EMDR structured, feel like my first responders
appreciate that too, because they are more structured humans.
It's more like this is where youstart.
This is right, like and so there's a protocol to it, I
guess is what I'm trying to say.So I think that that's why my
first responders really take to it.
But do you have any experiences like you and I utilize EMDR a
lot. What would you say is your
(13:10):
feedback to that? What do you feel like it's
really beneficial for your firstresponders as well?
Yes. And a big reason why I think, I
mean, I didn't really think of it in terms of the structure.
I think it's more of like they don't have to talk.
On that too though. They don't.
They kind of like that, like they like that it's just first
(13:31):
responders can be pretty in touch physically times.
There's some hurdles to being more in touch emotionally.
And so I think sometimes it's a really great place to say, OK, I
physically feel that in my chestlike that.
There's some tangibility to thatthat I think is helpful.
And again, it's not kind of whatyou said of like the joke of,
(13:54):
oh, where's your couch and let me talk about all my feelings.
It's a place of really, you know, if you want things to be
different, we can really roll our sleeves up and do some work
here. And I will say, you know, I did
therapy for, gosh, I'm trying tothink how long I've probably
been a therapist for like 5 years.
And when I was in Graduate School, like people talked about
(14:16):
this EMDR thing and I had some professors that were like, it's
great. I had some professors that were
skeptical. I mean, I just, I think it's
still then was I've been out of school for a long time, so still
in its infancy some. And I think a big hurdle for
some therapist is that it's pretty expensive to get trained.
(14:37):
And yeah, don't get me started on that.
But anyways, when I had the opportunity, I felt very, very
lucky. I had a lot of skills as a
therapist, but this was a tool in my toolbox that really kind
of can help like in terms of like you see a little bit more
traction sometimes. And that being said, I have
(14:58):
people that are King Hove, I'm going to do EMDR and then we get
to it and they really need to beheard.
They have some pretty big feelings and feel ignored and
there's power and using your voice and talking and stuff.
There's times where people come in and I will say with EMDR
(15:20):
there is sometimes people feel kind of like what are you doing
here? And a little bit of a loss of
control and that doesn't feel good.
And so sometimes you have to build some trust.
Absolutely. I think EMDR is great.
I think if it was a silver bullet, then we would all be
trained and it would be free and, and yeah, think it's
(15:42):
incredible how the brain works and how people want to heal and
that it's a great intervention when the times right for people.
Yeah. And I think what's really
important and why we wanted to come on, so this is a brief
episode today, but because we'releading up to something more.
And one thing that I think is just crucial that we wanted to
take away with today is that there is other things you can do
(16:05):
in therapy. And you said it best.
EMDR is something that you can get help for what you're going
through and maybe not have to beas talkative as you thought you
would in the therapeutic setting.
And that's a really big deal fora lot of my first responders.
And I want one, I want our listeners to take this episode
and go maybe do some of their own research scholarly.
(16:27):
I mean, don't obviously, right? Like we can probably find
anything on anything, but just be smart about the research.
But look it up, look up EMDR, look up other therapeutic
interventions. Because I think it's so
important to realize that like, hey, there's a lot of different
ways we can get help nowadays. 2, We're definitely going to
expand upon a lot more with thisas time comes.
(16:49):
And so it's just important to set the founder as well as what
EMDR is and why you and I both use it.
Absolutely. And I appreciate what does
therapy really look like, what is it gonna be?
And I just know how I do it in my style.
And with that being said, and I still just sit on one side of
(17:10):
that dynamic. So, you know, I hope that people
experience like feeling heard and understood.
And one thing I always tell clients, and I think this goes
back to another episode we had about cultural competent
therapist is therapy is just notone-size-fits-all.
And and that can be hard. Yeah.
(17:33):
You know, you want somebody thatfeels like a good fit.
And I'm very honest and transparent with people early on
to say like, hey, it's not aboutme, it's about you.
Like this has to feel like a fitfor you.
And so I think that's important to kind of circle back to.
And I've worked with clients whohave had EMDR with other
(17:54):
clinicians and then doing EMDR with me.
And the first thing I always sayis like, hey, we're all going to
put our fingerprints on this in a different way.
And so just because this therapist did EMDR with eye
movement and this one does it, what's happening, doesn't mean
that one's better or 1's. Worse.
Good point, yeah. And I do think though, there has
(18:15):
to fill a place of like, you feel safe with that.
Oh. Absolutely.
This is some intense work. Like I never, I'm always like,
hey, I'm not going to. I don't know, do we beat this
bullshit you? But it's not easy.
It's not easy work. And yet though the reward to it
sometimes is, is worth it. It is worth it to do the work.
But EMDR can be really intense and so you absolutely have to
(18:38):
have a safe place and build rapport with that clinician and
feel good to do it. Yeah.
You know, and I think that that's a real true thing, that
it can be like, oh, this is better, faster by some means,
but it doesn't mean it's easier like that, correct?
It. Is I know people that I took
this from a client, they gave mepermission to use this because I
(19:01):
think it's a great metaphor, especially when I'm working with
clients that maybe have some childhood stuff about some
negative beliefs. Like for example, I'm not good
enough, whatever reason that waslike a seed that was planted
when they were little. If you think about an adult
who's, you know, midlife that I'm not good enough has turned
(19:23):
into a four lane highway with a speed limit of 75 miles an hour.
Like that is just an automatic thought.
When there's something bad, there's a mistakes that happen,
it's on me. I'm not enough.
And with EMDR, you're looking atclosing a lane while at the same
time you've created a new path. And on that new path, it's just
(19:46):
a footpath right now. And with EMDR, you hope to like,
oh, I'm going to put some gravelon that I am enough path, that
positive belief and hopefully shut down another lane of your
highway. And so it's this idea of
transitioning from this negativebelief that's been there for a
long time to again this true belief that I'm going to.
(20:07):
Try my hardest or I'm gonna do my best or whatever that
positive belief is. Love that though.
I love that. Sometimes that can be hard to
close down a highway, but I think it's really powerful and
I've work with people that they've got a 2 lane road now
instead of A1 gravel path. And yet there can be experiences
(20:28):
sometimes that oh, I'm trying toget back on that highway.
And so we've done EMDR felt great, wonderful and Dang it if
life doesn't continue to happen sometimes.
And what's great with EMDR too is like you can always come
back. Like I've worked with clients on
a multitude of things over time.And that wasn't, we were working
together for 10 years and got all that.
(20:51):
It was, you know, we started andwe worked on some things and
things got a little bit better. And then I didn't see him for a
bit and then something hard happened and they checked back
in and that wasn't as long. That was pretty brief.
And and so you kind of see that happen as well.
And I tell all my clients, like as long as my ears work and my
mind's somewhat saying I plan tobe doing this.
(21:12):
And so I think it is something that sometimes you can pick up,
sit down, pick up, you know. Yeah, absolutely.
I love this. So I think that that's, I know,
short, brief to the point in this little mini episode to get
us back from the holidays and toget us rolling on some bigger
things just to, you know, I think that people enjoy these
(21:34):
shorter episodes. We've gotten some feedback on
that because it's a nice little drive to work.
And hey, you learned something new today about EMDR.
So we hope everyone kind of takes something from it,
researched it, and then comes back to us.
Don't forget to pick up. I'm listening to Doctor Quitz so
too, because it's really going to start to piece together.
Yeah, and I don't want people toforget.
Think about how long ago that episode was, and it was a.
(21:56):
Little. Baby here like especially
getting into another holiday season.
So thanks for checking us out and hit us up with questions
about EM dear Oh. Absolutely.
And never forget that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I
are here for you. Thank you.
Thanks, have a good one.
First responders will say I was just in the parking lot at
Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large
physical reaction. That's because that amygdala
talked about not being online, that amygdala has this kind of
memory and this connection immediately with our body.
And so EMDR does this great job and I could say speaking aim and
(00:23):
E speaking to our amygdala through our physical body.
You know, with EMDR you're doinga lot of check insurance of
notice what you notice in your body doing body scancering of
the top of your head to the bottom of your toes.
You know, what do you notice? Do you notice tension?
Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness?
Do you notice nothing like all those things are ways in which
(00:46):
we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go offline to use
your. Hi, welcome back to the podcast.
I'm Jennifer. And I'm Ashley, we hope
everybody had a really great Thanksgiving.
Yes, we do. We do hope everyone has a good
Thanksgiving and we appreciate you checking out our thankful
episode. And it's just us again.
(01:08):
We are doing things a little bitdifferent here lately, but I
like it when it's just you and Iso I.
Know, I kind of love it. I think people forget like
everyone has lives and of coursescheduling and things like that.
But we are blessed. I mean we are super blessed.
We have some really cool things lined up and honestly like it's
really nice over the holidays not to have to worry about
1,000,000 schedules and just us 2.
(01:31):
That is the truth. I was on a text message chain
about people trying to meet, andI'm like, we're really going to
try to meet before January. No, like that's just not going
to happen. So and we have a specific thing
we wanted to talk about today, which is EMDR.
Yeah, And I think that I want topreference something that came
(01:52):
to me when we were trying to brainstorm, hey, what do we talk
about today, right? Like what do we give our
audience? Something that I think we fall
short on when we're talking about therapy in general is that
a lot of people have one thoughtprocess.
And if there is something that Ican say is that both of us are
making waves and changing the stigma, especially when first
responders coming to therapy, I still almost every day get the
(02:15):
cliche of like, well, I thought therapy was, Hey, tell me how
this makes you feel over and over again.
The whole come in my all my officers, my firefighters too.
But I feel like my firefighters give me a little bit less grief.
But hey, my police for sure willbe like, oh, where's the big
comfy couch that I get to lay on?
(02:35):
And I'm like, OK, this, this is not, you know, but I've also
been doing a heck of a lot of ride alongs, which is beautiful
because one thing I always strive for in this, I guess this
career is that I never want to stop learning from them too.
So one way I do that is to ride along with them.
And in that ride along, I am doing nothing clinically.
(02:56):
Of course, if we're stuck in a squad together for 8 hours, I'm
going to talk to you because I'mjust a talker.
But I'm there to learn from you.I'm there to just be excited
about what's going on. I'm not there to diagnose or
evaluate or what have you, the person I'm riding with.
And I get that every single time.
They'll be like, Doc G is comingwith me.
Oh, they must think. I need an evaluation.
(03:17):
They must think. And I'm like.
What? Like that is not true.
So that does often lead me to this discussion of what do you
think therapy is? And while there's some truth to
therapy being a lot about talking right, and a lot about
processing, digging, connecting things, there's also different
ways that we do therapy now. And I think we could spend 6
years, Jennifer, like talking about all these things.
(03:39):
But the one thing that I know both you and I kind of
specialize in you more so than me.
So I'm going to pass this mic onEMDR.
And I think it's important to talk about.
And I think this episode, we're just going to bring it to light
and then probably expand upon itand like a follow up episode
only because there is so much. But why don't we breakdown what
(03:59):
that is? I think it's important for
people to know that there's different things out there that
we can do, EMDR being one of them.
Yeah, well, I think first is like what does EMDR stand for,
which is eye movement, desuscitation, reprocessing.
I always struggle. OK, I was just about to say I
can never. I can never say that either.
Like. I literally can't.
(04:20):
Yes. And the Francis Shapiro is the,
I wouldn't call her the inventor, I guess the discoverer
of EMDR and kind of move things forward with this therapeutic
intervention. She said she wished it had come
up with a different name and I kind of wished that she had as
well. But it really is just a
(04:40):
intervention that therapist can use that is a little bit
different than talk therapy. I don't know, actually, I feel
like we started over. He made me reflect like, gosh,
what do people really do think that therapy is?
But I'll be specific and talk about EMDR.
So how I explain EMDR to clientsis that it is a way in which the
(05:06):
brain naturally heals itself. So in the eye movement, it's
replicating our REM sleep, our deepest cycle of sleep.
REM sleep is when your eyes are rapidly moving back and forth.
That is the rapid eye movement that happens in REM sleep, which
is a deep sleep cycle. A lot of our first responders
(05:28):
don't get into REM sleep becauseof which makes it really
difficult. And you know, something I think
is great about the human body and a lot of ways it's so
healthy and can heal itself. So when I think like, oh, if I
cut at my finger, I'm not thinking, OK, I need to clot
blood and and grow a scab, grow new skin that my body just
(05:52):
automatically does that. And our brains has that ability
to when we rest, we sleep, we pre process our experience of
the day. And unfortunately, sometimes
there's experiences that we havethat maybe we don't get a good
night's sleep afterwards. Or there's experiences that we
have, especially when we're first responders that, you know,
nobody should really have to go see or experience these things.
(06:13):
There's no place in our brain toput some of the bores that
people experience when their first responders.
And what EMDR is doing is just taking that information.
Clients can do different things like the eye movement, which is
the replication of the REM sleep.
There's also this fancy word called bilateral stimulation.
It is just where both hemispheres of the brain are
(06:37):
working. OK, have I gotten too technical?
Like are. You.
No, you're doing a great job. I always giggle when I hear
because when I explain it and I go, I don't know why, I go to
the run sleep part and I talk about the eyes shifting.
I'm always waiting for someone to be like, wait, what?
We're like freaking freak out about that or be like our eyes
shift. But yeah.
I think you're doing and I I think that's always important.
(06:58):
You know, when I tell people that about sleep, I'm quick to
say I'm not putting you to sleep, I'm not hypnotizing you.
You're awake and conscious throughout this experience and
aimed yours been in practice for, you know, over decades now
I want to say like 30. I was going to say I know it's
over 30 now. Probably getting closer to 40
(07:21):
and technologies come a lot further.
So as much as people do eye movement, there's what we call
tappers, a real clinical word, but it's just this thing that
will vibrate in your hand and goback and forth.
I do a lot of virtual sessions, so I use eye movement a lot with
virtual sessions, but I also have auditorium.
So it will go into one headphone, then the next
(07:44):
headphone if people have headphones.
And and then there's also tactical tapping where I just
have people like cross their arms and we'll tap and I get to
tap with them, which is I get some free AVR sometimes when I'm
doing that with clients, You know what, I work with clients
in terms of like a traumatic experience and there can be one
(08:05):
call that's a traumatic experience.
And sometimes those are some experiences that as therapists
will call little T's. They're small traumatic
experiences. And sometimes those little T's
can be a little bit harder than the big T's.
If we maybe had an experience with adult that made us feel
less than or if we maybe had a thing at school that made, you
(08:28):
know, school was hard and we felt left out in groups.
Like there's just these experiences that we have when
we're little and we don't have all the information that are if
you think about our hemispheres,our left and our right and our
our thinking and our feeling when we're little, we can get
that really confused. And so EMDR can be a great
(08:48):
resource sometimes for, you know, my smart brain knows that
I'm loved and care for. And yet sometimes in my heart, I
don't feel that way. And EMDR is a great tool that
can kind of get those online together.
It is a research intervention. This is not just some therapist
came together and like, hey, let's try this.
(09:10):
There's lots of research that shows that the as an
intervention can be really helpful.
Yeah, and I think it's importantto to kind of do a little
throwback to one of our very first episodes that probably
hasn't gotten the attention thatit needs just because we were
really brand new babies to this whole podcast thing.
But when we had Doctor Coit on here, she did a fabulous job,
(09:30):
like talking to us about how thebrain works, right, and what
happens to the brain when we're in high stress situations.
And I think that it's important when we're talking about EMDR to
remember that prefrontal cortex,it's kind of a little bit
offline. It's not fully there when we are
in a high stress situation, which makes it hard for us to
actually reprocess things in a way that we typically would if
(09:52):
it was a normal event. And so I always tell my guys and
girls that come to me that in that moment, like your brain is
still taking everything in typically through your senses,
but the piercing it together is kind of hard.
And it'll take that situation and it'll store it away in your
long term memory and what I callthe red file encampment.
And it'll just keep doing that if we don't take it back out and
reprocess it with our prefrontalcortex back online, right?
(10:14):
To have those facts of everything that happened around
us with that emotional side and to work through it that way.
But I think that's something really important to recognize is
that literally the brain is doing this to us when we're in
these careers, and it's something that we can't
necessarily help. It's just how we respond.
Well, and I think to to that whole point, you know, something
I talk a lot about with clients is that EMDR is really working
(10:38):
to speak to our amygdala to that, you know, survival part of
our brain, which is not our frontal cortex.
It's not that smart decision making self.
It is just about survival, whichI think, you know, it's kind of
cool that like our is wired in away that survival.
I mean, that's got to be the most important thing, not always
(10:59):
about our happiness or feeling good.
It's about surviving and that connection with the amygdala and
our physical body. You know, if I'm running from a
Saber toothed tiger, I can't digest my Bologna sandwich.
Yes, you know, I need to feel myheart racing.
I'm going to feel sweaty in casesomebody grabs me.
Like all these things and we have these physical responses
(11:21):
and that memory, right? And so that's why I think
sometimes first responders will say, I was just in the parking
lot at Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large
physical reaction. That's because that amygdala
talked about not being online, that amygdala has this kind of
memory and this connection immediately with our body.
(11:43):
And so EMDR does this great job and I could say speaking aim and
knee speaking to our amygdala through our physical body.
You know, with EMDR you're doinga lot of check insurance of
notice what you notice in your body doing body scan starting at
the top of your head to the bottom of your toes.
You know, what do you notice? Do you notice tension?
(12:03):
Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness?
Do you notice nothing? Like all those things are are
ways in which we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go
offline, to use your kind of metaphor and allow that stuff to
kind of be processed in a way that says I don't have to have a
physical response in the parkinglot.
(12:25):
Like I can say like, hey, I'm safe.
I'm OK, Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And why do you and I, I know I'm, I'm bouncing off E here,
but I do find that EMDR is like my first responders really take
to EMDR. I happen to think that baseline
like not going anything significant here.
(12:47):
I like that EMDR structured, feel like my first responders
appreciate that too, because they are more structured humans.
It's more like this is where youstart.
This is right, like and so there's a protocol to it, I
guess is what I'm trying to say.So I think that that's why my
first responders really take to it.
But do you have any experiences like you and I utilize EMDR a
lot. What would you say is your
(13:10):
feedback to that? What do you feel like it's
really beneficial for your firstresponders as well?
Yes. And a big reason why I think, I
mean, I didn't really think of it in terms of the structure.
I think it's more of like they don't have to talk.
On that too though. They don't.
They kind of like that, like they like that it's just first
(13:31):
responders can be pretty in touch physically times.
There's some hurdles to being more in touch emotionally.
And so I think sometimes it's a really great place to say, OK, I
physically feel that in my chestlike that.
There's some tangibility to thatthat I think is helpful.
And again, it's not kind of whatyou said of like the joke of,
(13:54):
oh, where's your couch and let me talk about all my feelings.
It's a place of really, you know, if you want things to be
different, we can really roll our sleeves up and do some work
here. And I will say, you know, I did
therapy for, gosh, I'm trying tothink how long I've probably
been a therapist for like 5 years.
And when I was in Graduate School, like people talked about
(14:16):
this EMDR thing and I had some professors that were like, it's
great. I had some professors that were
skeptical. I mean, I just, I think it's
still then was I've been out of school for a long time, so still
in its infancy some. And I think a big hurdle for
some therapist is that it's pretty expensive to get trained.
(14:37):
And yeah, don't get me started on that.
But anyways, when I had the opportunity, I felt very, very
lucky. I had a lot of skills as a
therapist, but this was a tool in my toolbox that really kind
of can help like in terms of like you see a little bit more
traction sometimes. And that being said, I have
(14:58):
people that are King Hove, I'm going to do EMDR and then we get
to it and they really need to beheard.
They have some pretty big feelings and feel ignored and
there's power and using your voice and talking and stuff.
There's times where people come in and I will say with EMDR
(15:20):
there is sometimes people feel kind of like what are you doing
here? And a little bit of a loss of
control and that doesn't feel good.
And so sometimes you have to build some trust.
Absolutely. I think EMDR is great.
I think if it was a silver bullet, then we would all be
trained and it would be free and, and yeah, think it's
(15:42):
incredible how the brain works and how people want to heal and
that it's a great intervention when the times right for people.
Yeah. And I think what's really
important and why we wanted to come on, so this is a brief
episode today, but because we'releading up to something more.
And one thing that I think is just crucial that we wanted to
take away with today is that there is other things you can do
(16:05):
in therapy. And you said it best.
EMDR is something that you can get help for what you're going
through and maybe not have to beas talkative as you thought you
would in the therapeutic setting.
And that's a really big deal fora lot of my first responders.
And I want one, I want our listeners to take this episode
and go maybe do some of their own research scholarly.
(16:27):
I mean, don't obviously, right? Like we can probably find
anything on anything, but just be smart about the research.
But look it up, look up EMDR, look up other therapeutic
interventions. Because I think it's so
important to realize that like, hey, there's a lot of different
ways we can get help nowadays. 2, We're definitely going to
expand upon a lot more with thisas time comes.
(16:49):
And so it's just important to set the founder as well as what
EMDR is and why you and I both use it.
Absolutely. And I appreciate what does
therapy really look like, what is it gonna be?
And I just know how I do it in my style.
And with that being said, and I still just sit on one side of
(17:10):
that dynamic. So, you know, I hope that people
experience like feeling heard and understood.
And one thing I always tell clients, and I think this goes
back to another episode we had about cultural competent
therapist is therapy is just notone-size-fits-all.
And and that can be hard. Yeah.
(17:33):
You know, you want somebody thatfeels like a good fit.
And I'm very honest and transparent with people early on
to say like, hey, it's not aboutme, it's about you.
Like this has to feel like a fitfor you.
And so I think that's important to kind of circle back to.
And I've worked with clients whohave had EMDR with other
(17:54):
clinicians and then doing EMDR with me.
And the first thing I always sayis like, hey, we're all going to
put our fingerprints on this in a different way.
And so just because this therapist did EMDR with eye
movement and this one does it, what's happening, doesn't mean
that one's better or 1's. Worse.
Good point, yeah. And I do think though, there has
(18:15):
to fill a place of like, you feel safe with that.
Oh. Absolutely.
This is some intense work. Like I never, I'm always like,
hey, I'm not going to. I don't know, do we beat this
bullshit you? But it's not easy.
It's not easy work. And yet though the reward to it
sometimes is, is worth it. It is worth it to do the work.
But EMDR can be really intense and so you absolutely have to
(18:38):
have a safe place and build rapport with that clinician and
feel good to do it. Yeah.
You know, and I think that that's a real true thing, that
it can be like, oh, this is better, faster by some means,
but it doesn't mean it's easier like that, correct?
It. Is I know people that I took
this from a client, they gave mepermission to use this because I
(19:01):
think it's a great metaphor, especially when I'm working with
clients that maybe have some childhood stuff about some
negative beliefs. Like for example, I'm not good
enough, whatever reason that waslike a seed that was planted
when they were little. If you think about an adult
who's, you know, midlife that I'm not good enough has turned
(19:23):
into a four lane highway with a speed limit of 75 miles an hour.
Like that is just an automatic thought.
When there's something bad, there's a mistakes that happen,
it's on me. I'm not enough.
And with EMDR, you're looking atclosing a lane while at the same
time you've created a new path. And on that new path, it's just
(19:46):
a footpath right now. And with EMDR, you hope to like,
oh, I'm going to put some gravelon that I am enough path, that
positive belief and hopefully shut down another lane of your
highway. And so it's this idea of
transitioning from this negativebelief that's been there for a
long time to again this true belief that I'm going to.
(20:07):
Try my hardest or I'm gonna do my best or whatever that
positive belief is. Love that though.
I love that. Sometimes that can be hard to
close down a highway, but I think it's really powerful and
I've work with people that they've got a 2 lane road now
instead of A1 gravel path. And yet there can be experiences
(20:28):
sometimes that oh, I'm trying toget back on that highway.
And so we've done EMDR felt great, wonderful and Dang it if
life doesn't continue to happen sometimes.
And what's great with EMDR too is like you can always come
back. Like I've worked with clients on
a multitude of things over time.And that wasn't, we were working
together for 10 years and got all that.
(20:51):
It was, you know, we started andwe worked on some things and
things got a little bit better. And then I didn't see him for a
bit and then something hard happened and they checked back
in and that wasn't as long. That was pretty brief.
And and so you kind of see that happen as well.
And I tell all my clients, like as long as my ears work and my
mind's somewhat saying I plan tobe doing this.
(21:12):
And so I think it is something that sometimes you can pick up,
sit down, pick up, you know. Yeah, absolutely.
I love this. So I think that that's, I know,
short, brief to the point in this little mini episode to get
us back from the holidays and toget us rolling on some bigger
things just to, you know, I think that people enjoy these
(21:34):
shorter episodes. We've gotten some feedback on
that because it's a nice little drive to work.
And hey, you learned something new today about EMDR.
So we hope everyone kind of takes something from it,
researched it, and then comes back to us.
Don't forget to pick up. I'm listening to Doctor Quitz so
too, because it's really going to start to piece together.
Yeah, and I don't want people toforget.
Think about how long ago that episode was, and it was a.
(21:56):
Little. Baby here like especially
getting into another holiday season.
So thanks for checking us out and hit us up with questions
about EM dear Oh. Absolutely.
And never forget that when the call hits home, Jennifer and I
are here for you. Thank you.
Thanks, have a good one.
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