Tanzania and Hiking Kilimanjaro with Scott

In this episode, we sit down with Scott Brills, co-founder of Pamoja Safaris, to learn about Tanzania and unpack what it actually takes to climb Kilimanjaro safely, see the Serengeti well, and travel in a way that respects people, wildlife, and your own limits.

Scott’s story starts far from Africa: a year abroad in Japan that flipped a shy, game-loving kid into a traveler, entrepreneur, and eventually a guide to some of the world’s most iconic landscapes. He shares how meeting his partner Josh on his first safari led to building a tight, local-first team, and how fair pay and training change the guest experience. 

From Tarangire’s elephants and Ngorongoro Crater’s “lost world” feel to the Serengeti’s Great Migration, we break down the Northern Circuit and when to consider quieter southern parks like Ruaha. Expect practical planning tips: best months to go, realistic costs, when yellow fever proof matters, and why bottled water should be your default.

If Tanzania has lived in your head as a someday, this conversation turns it into a plan—with the right operator, the right pace, and the right expectations. 

You can find Scott here:

Pamoja Safaris

Instagram

Map of Tanzania

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Hi, welcome to our podcast, Where Next.
Travel with Kristen and Carol.
I am Kristen.
And I am Carol.
And we're two long-term friendswith a passion for travel and
adventure.
Each episode, we interviewpeople around the globe to help
us decide where to go next.

SPEAKER_02 (00:33):
Today we have Scott from Pomoja Safaris, and we're
going to talk about Tanzania.
And so Scott, we are justgetting to know you.
So excited to hear what yourAfrican connection is.

SPEAKER_00 (00:45):
Yeah, thanks for having me, Carol.
Kristen.
I'm excited.
I'm excited to talk all aboutit.

SPEAKER_02 (00:50):
Okay, great.
Now, so do you live in Africa oryou live somewhere else and just
go to Africa a lot?

SPEAKER_00 (00:55):
We have a team on the ground in Tanzania
full-time.
And me and my partner, uh Josh,uh who is my business partner
over in Tanzania, is in chargeof that.
I'm in charge of kind ofbuilding up the business and
everything.
And so I spend about two monthsevery year over there.
Um and I've done so over thepast uh 15, 16 years.
So pretty, pretty good uh, youknow, idea of things on the

(01:16):
ground and you know, gonethrough a lot of uh crazy
adventures and and fun, like,you know, fun uh story type
things during during theformation of the business and
just you know everyday life,operating the business and
everything.
So yeah, it's been it's been ajourney.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30):
How did that start?
Like where did you grow up?

SPEAKER_00 (01:33):
Start stepping back as you know, growing up a long,
long time ago in a land far awaycalled Back in the 1900s.
Back in the 1900s in a landcalled Metro Detroit, Michigan.
Um I I I was born and raised inSoutheast Michigan, not too far
from Detroit.
Um, I always grew up lovinganimals.
I always grew up with uhentrepreneurial spirit, uh, but

(01:55):
I never thought that someday Iwould own and run a safari
company in Africa by any means.
Oh, and then you're British.

SPEAKER_02 (02:02):
You have a little do you have a British?

SPEAKER_00 (02:04):
I do I do have an accent.
It's funny, I was just talkingwith somebody last night, and
he's like, you know, I I'vetraveled a lot and I always get
people thinking, like, you'renot American, you've got an
accent.
He used to live in Bali for awhile, and I was like, Yeah, me
too.
Usually every week somebody willsay, Are you English or Irish?
And I'm always like, Yeah, I getthat a lot.
Don't worry about it.
Yeah, but it's just the factthat I travel all over and I

(02:24):
have since I was uh 18 or so,um, that it just kind of uh made
my accent sound a little a bitdifferent than uh, you know,
back to Detroit or 18.

SPEAKER_02 (02:35):
I graduate high school.
I don't know, did you go tocollege or no college?

SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
Yes, I did, but I spent the first year uh studying
abroad in Japan.
Oh so after I got back, so I wasover there with uh a group of
other students, uh mostly fromMichigan, but uh when I came
back is when I started gettingthe comments about uh the
accent.
So I think it was being aroundall the people from around the
world and being like in a verynascent stage of kind of
development, first time awayfrom home and everything.

(03:00):
And I just kind of pickedsomething up and it never went
away.

SPEAKER_02 (03:03):
Oh, that's awesome.
So at 18, you were like, I wantto travel the world, or what
made you pick Japan, or how didthat start?
Because for also my kids are 18and 21, and I'm encouraging them
to do that because I wish Iwould have done that.

SPEAKER_00 (03:15):
Heavily recommend studying abroad slash a gap
year.
Heavy, heavy recommend on that,especially for you know, for
Americans or anybody else likefrom a big country that like,
you know, there's so much to seehere and do.
Like, why would you travelanywhere else?
Oh, I recommend that toeveryone.
It completely changed my life.
Um, I went over there as a quiteshy, kind of bookworm, uh video

(03:37):
game kind of kid, you know,growing up.
And I came back totallydifferent, totally different.
You know, my I was over therewith a group of students mostly
few years older than me, andthey kind of took me under the
wing and taught me life, youknow, um, and obviously being in
Japan was very, very different.
Um, but it was really neat to beover there in this like work

(03:57):
study program through mycollege, uh, where we would have
classes, three semesters ofclasses, uh, and then we'd also
do work.
So, like half the time work,half the time study, and we get
a couple days off a week uh toexplore the country as well.
And so yeah, I went over therevery, very shy, and I came back
less shy, let's say.

(04:18):
Um, but you know, my my tastebuds are completely changed.
I used to think like pepperoniwas too spicy.
I grew up very white, I say,like casserole, casserole type
white.
And then and then I came back,and I I kid you not, I brought
back uh three containers ofkimchi because we stopped over
at the Seoul Airport comingback.
And my mom was like, What's thatsmell?

(04:39):
And she's uh she's a supertaster, right?
So I grew up with very blandfood.
So I was like, Oh, it's kimchi.
I I grew to love it over here.
And she's like, What?
She's like, You're not bringingthat in the house.
So it was winter time.
We kept it in like a trash canoutside.
Oh yeah, I I do not, I'm not afan.
Yeah.
She means she was like, What whoare you?
What have you done with my son?

(04:59):
Uh and and that reallysolidified um after I spent that
year over there, and I cameback, I went back to my job at
one of those big box likecomputer retailers where I was
working selling computers, and Itried to do it for a few months,
and I'm like, this is not what Iwant to do with my life.
And uh I started my firstbusiness uh soon thereafter.
So I was 19 at the time, and Istarted uh my web development

(05:21):
business, and it was kind ofjust like a lifestyle business,
getting the money I need tofinish up school and and to
survive.
And it started getting uh youknow more and more successful,
and then I was traveling moreand more.
I kept going back to Japan for afew months every year.
Um, I eventually started up a uhmulti-day high-end culinary tour
company in Japan, which is awhole nother topic for the next

(05:42):
episode.
Wow.
Um but I I so I do that, it'slike a passion business, and and
you know, the fact that I runculinary tours shows you, you
know, my palate completelychanged.
You know, I I came back sodifferent in so many ways.
Um, but I really have Japan tothank for that.
And but I I also think that nomatter where I would have gone,
you know, on a gap year or studyabroad, like it would have
changed my life in in some wayfor the better.

SPEAKER_02 (06:03):
Yeah, I asked that because uh there's another woman
we interviewed, um, the ladyfrom Tahoe, I can't remember her
name at the top of my head, KatKat Medina.
And she first went to an abroadlike in Ecuador, and she's like,
oh, South America just you knowfelt like it's called to her and
it's really this special placein her heart.
And I did this exchange when Iwas in college to Hawaii, and

(06:24):
now like Hawaii has this likereally special, but it's it's
where in my eyes were firstopened up.
And Chris and I felt a littlebit maybe with your Costa Rica,
like if that's like when youreyes like really opened up, is
that that first endeavor?
Do you still like does Japanfeel like, oh my gosh, I just
Japan, I'm gonna keep drawingback?
Or has it moved now to Africa?

SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Just curious.
So I actually someone just askedme this a few weeks ago, and I
said the two are such differentplaces.
Um they both have great things,but there's not like a ton of
overlap.
I like the food in Tanzania, butlike you're on the tourist
circuit and it's unlimited greatfood all the time, but the
tastes, the the you know, uhherbs and spices, all that thing

(07:06):
are very very different thanJapan.
And so I love the food in Japan.
I love the the history and theculture uh in Japan.
I love the animals and theculture in a totally separate
way in Africa.
I really go to each place, andand I spend about two, three
months a year in each placeevery year, um, along with my
other travel and then some timeback home as well in the US.

(07:27):
And it really, each onescratches a different itch.
But I can say that one since Iwas there at such a young age, I
changed my life so much thatwhen I go back to Japan, it
feels especially Kyoto, which isright around where I study, it
feels like going home.

SPEAKER_02 (07:40):
And you did that in high school or college?

SPEAKER_00 (07:43):
Right out of college.
So I took um one semester uh inin Michigan, and then I went
over to Japan.

SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
Okay, got it.
So wait, you you start you were18, you took a semester, and
then you went to Japan for wasit one year?
Uh yeah, about it's uh nine, tenmonths.
Okay, and then when you cameback, did you go back to school
or what did you do?

SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
Yeah, yeah.
So so uh I eventually ended upgetting my my bachelor's degree.
I would take off basically asemester every year to go back
to Japan.
And um I worked at like a skilodge for a bit.
I was like a waiter, abartender, a ski instructor.
So I just wanted to keep goingback because Japan was just, you
know, it opened up my eyes somuch.
I had so many friends overthere.
I I just loved being there, andI still love being there to this

(08:26):
day, and I still go over thereto hang out with friends.
But this time I'm paid to goback to Japan, which is a bit
which is the best.
I get paid to drink in Japan andI see my friends, and uh yeah,
it you know, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (08:38):
Well, we're gonna have to have you back a whole
other episode just on Japanbecause it's such an interesting
story, and uh yeah, we got togo, but I really wanted to try
to focus on uh Tandis.

SPEAKER_03 (08:47):
Of course, yes.

SPEAKER_02 (08:48):
So, how did you first get to Africa and and and
transition to having a tourcompany?

SPEAKER_00 (08:55):
Exactly.
That and that's something thatI'm asked pretty often.
Um so in in 2010, I went toAfrica for the first time with
my father.
He's a pretty avid traveler, hedoesn't get around as much as I
do, but he'd always wanted to goto Africa.
It was his first time too.
We went with an American tourcompany with 16 other uh or 14
other people, and uh they wereall older, like uh retiree age.

(09:16):
Um, to give you an example, myfather was the second youngest
person of the group.
So I was like the grandchild byfar.
Uh I was I was 28, 28 years old,and uh we had three different
vehicles, three differentguides, Peter, Josh, and uh one
other guy, whose name is Staceyright now.
Uh, but we spent about two weeksdoing the classic safari route

(09:38):
and cultural activities andeverything.
I had already planned to stayextra after that.
So I was going to ZanzibarIsland on my own for like a week
of Fun in the Sun, and then Iwas gonna come back to where we
started, which is northernTanzania, and climb Kilimanjaro
with a friend I had met theprevious year in Mongolia who
lived in the UK and was asurgeon.
Uh, she was gonna fly in andwe're gonna climb Kilimanjaro

(10:00):
together.
So this is pre-smartphone, uh,at least me having a smartphone.
And so uh I had connected withJosh because he was obviously
the best uh of the group.
He wasn't even the lead guide.
He was heads and tails above theother two guys.
Um he was knowledgeable, he wasfunny, you could tell he loved
his job.
Everyone was clamoring to be inhis vehicle, and the fact that I

(10:22):
was faster than everyone else, Ihad to kind of slow my roll and
be like, oh, I'm gonna allowother people a chance to be in
Josh's car.
Um you could tell, like he washe was just really great.
And so I connected with him, weswapped numbers, he helped me
with some of the uh the kind oflogistics, um, with me traveling
solo, going to Zanzibar andback, and then pre and post

(10:43):
Kilimanjaro.
And uh we we did Kilimanjaro.
I summited barely if it wasn'tfor my friend Ann uh pushing me
right at the top, saying, like,well, you can stay here, but I'm
gonna go to the summit summit,the actual summit.
And I was like, I can't let youdo this by yourself, I have to
go.
And so she dragged my ass up tothe top of the mountain.

(11:03):
Um, so I credit her for that.
But after after that was allsaid and done, we were there for
a few nights at the end to uh tocelebrate.
Josh uh invited us over to hishouse to meet his wife and two
kids at that time.

SPEAKER_02 (11:15):
How tall, how tall is Kilimanjaro?

SPEAKER_00 (11:17):
It's 19,341 feet.

SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 (11:20):
So about 5,900 meters uh for those that do not
work in freedom units.

SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
Oxygen or no oxygen?

SPEAKER_00 (11:29):
No oxygen.
So uh they bring, and I knowthis now being a true operator
that does Kilimanjaro trips, andI've planned it a few times
since uh, that they do bringsupplemental oxygen.
However, if you have to use it,basically that's the point where
you have to go down.
So you break that seal, you'regone.
Um so the the thing is is thatyou want to, and we did it the

(11:50):
cheap way, and we went with a acheaper company and a guy that
really just didn't give didn'tgive a hoot about us.
He was just walking like 10minutes ahead of us on his phone
the whole time.
Oh no.
Oh, I just remember so Iremember at the time, you know,
thinking like, huh, this Iwonder if this is how they
always do it.
And like now that we run our owncompany, I'm like, that was that
was so awful.

(12:11):
Uh, you know, feeding us popcornfor dinner and stuff like that.
It was you know, no wonder I wasso weak at the top.
Yeah, so it was an experience.
Um, I I knew later on, you know,when I started, we started doing
Kilimanjaro tours how not to doit, so that's great.
Uh, but uh yeah, so the there isuh sometimes a reason why uh one
company is cheaper than theother.

(12:32):
Right.
Right.
And then something likeespecially something like either
a safari that's uh a lifetimeexperience for most most people.
Some people come back again, buta lot of people it's one and
done.
And Kilimanjaro, which is thesame thing, but also you've got
the added risk of it's a verytall mountain, you know, and
there are just natural hazardsdoing that.
It pays to maybe spend a littlebit more.

SPEAKER_02 (12:54):
Okay, so how cold does it get on Kilimanjaro?
Because you're like closer tothe equator than say, like,
because I'm in Colorado and wehave our four teeners and like
it's brutally cold, but 19,000feet I would assume it's cold,
but like how like do you havelike is it like snowy and parkas
at the top?

SPEAKER_00 (13:10):
There are glaciers at the top.
It is the only thing.

SPEAKER_02 (13:13):
Glaciers can be at the top of a mountain?
I always thought they were inthe ocean only.

SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
No, no, they're at the top of the mountain.
Yeah, so this is so cold, andit's it's snow left over from a
long time ago.
Uh so it's so cold that thesestay up there, but of course,
climate change, they areshrinking, they predict by about
2050.
They'll probably pretty much goaway, but they're big glaciers.
They're a little bit far off inthe distance, they're not as
close to the walking trail as asuh most people go on, but um,

(13:40):
you can see them, they're big.
It is cold.
I have walked up there on thesummit day in snowstorms before,
trudging through inches of snow.
But I've also been up therewhere it's just clear, you can
see all the stars, it's abeautiful day.
So we always tell our gueststhat are going up at prepare for
anything, because I haveexperienced personally
everything on that mountain.

SPEAKER_02 (14:00):
How long is it?
Is there overnight?

SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Is it like yeah, is it we usually recommend it the
eight-day route, uh which is theLamosho route, but you can do it
quicker.
The reason why we don't suggestyou do it quicker is because the
biggest reason why people don'tsuccessfully summit it is
because their body hasn'tacclimatized to the elevation.
So you get uh elevationsickness, hypoxia, and then
you're you just get really tiredor you get nauseous or all the

(14:24):
above, you can't sleep, and oryou can't eat, then you have to
be escorted down the mountain ifit gets really bad.
And you know, all of our guidesare trained to look for symptoms
of that.
When you're all said and done,you're spending all this time to
get over there, and you've gotlike a day's worth of flight
there, days worth of flightback, you know, you're spending
this money already.
Like spend a few extra hundreddollars to extend a few more
days and to give your body thetime to acclimatize.

(14:46):
And also, we generally like totake people on a route that's a
little bit less touristed sothat you get um you get the
experience with fewer peoplearound and also better views.
Uh so there's a few reasons whyyou should take your time and go
up there and and do it right.

SPEAKER_02 (15:01):
So then you're camping, right?
Obviously.

SPEAKER_00 (15:03):
The the shorter route, the Muranga route, has
some huts you can stay in, um,but all the other routes, yeah,
you you can't.
And so we take proper likemountaineering, like Everest
level tents in Garrett.

SPEAKER_02 (15:14):
Okay, yeah, that's what I was gonna think.
Oh gosh.
I am looking up um KilimanjaroGlaciers because I just was
like, I just always see glacierin water, and it is a trip to
see it on dirt.

SPEAKER_00 (15:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
Glacier on dirt.

SPEAKER_00 (15:28):
It's the only place in Africa with uh with glaciers.
It's the tallest freestandingmountain in the world.
And it's the tallest mountain inAfrica.

SPEAKER_02 (15:36):
Wow.
I mean, it's impressive.
What elevation do you start thehike at?
Like how is Tanzania at like3,000 feet to begin with, or are
you at sea level?

SPEAKER_00 (15:46):
Uh no, so in northern Tanzania, where you're
at, uh like where we start, it'sgenerally um the city's at about
a mile up, um, but then we we goa little bit further than that
uh at the gate which we start inuh climbing.
So it's generally about 8,000feet or so is where we start.
And then you you gain another11, 11,500 feet.

SPEAKER_02 (16:08):
That's a lot.
I'm excited.
I mean, I don't even want to doa 14 here in Colorado.
That's as high as we havebecause I'm not gonna do it.
I get too lightheaded.
So I'm like, I like 11,000 iskind of like my max.
And we're starting at five.
So I'm only going up like seven.
So that's that's that is funnybecause I don't know it.
Like I'm California, so itdoesn't even compute for me.

(16:28):
So I'm just like, sure, itsounds like an adventure.
Whereas Carol's like, I'vealready been there, and I'm
like, I I've been with you inthe five, but not I.

SPEAKER_00 (16:35):
So like it it's it is definitely uh a difference
between the uh the 14s, becausewe've had people that like live
in Colorado uh just a few tripsago that go on the 14, they're
like, Well, we've done 14s, likewe're good.
I'm like, no, you don'tunderstand.
All the difference is when yougo from 14 up to 19, you know,
341, that is a huge gap.

(16:55):
Oh my god.
About 50% of the oxygen uh assea level at that point.

SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
So just curious, like for gr people that have, I
mean, I I as a kid, I rememberhaving out like um we uh had a
house in Mammoth and that's what11,000, I don't know, something
like 12,000.
Just driving there and I noticedthat it was hard for me.
But as a kid, that's different.
I'm I'm pretty athletic now.
But do you notice is there acertain type?

(17:21):
I get seasick, but whatever.
That's just a thing.
Um, not so much though, but isthere a certain person, or if if
you've done that, then you getsick, or you just kind of it's
just acclimation, just go takeyour time, and usually it works.

SPEAKER_00 (17:34):
Yeah, so that's the biggest thing is pacing um and
giving your body that time toacclimatize to the elevation.
So uh whereas uh when I did itwith the cheat company, and I
won't name any names, you know,the guy was way ahead of us and
we were just left on our own,which is not the way way to do
it.
What our guides do is they govery slowly, like literally step

(17:55):
over step, and they say, pleasestay behind me.
I'm gonna set the pace.
Because once you overexertyourself and get to the certain
level, it's really hard to getyour heartbeat and your
breathing back to normal.
So sometimes we have people thatsay, Oh, this is easy, but they
don't understand at thatelevation what you're doing to
your body when you over-exert,how much, how long it's gonna
take you to get back to thatbase level.

(18:16):
So we always tell people, pleaselisten to our guides and go at
the pace that they're setting.
As far as hypoxia, the the AMSaltitude, uh, mountain sickness,
uh, so our cute mountainsickness, that can hit anybody.
It doesn't matter what age youare, how fit you are, um, it
doesn't matter if one time youdo it and the next time it could
hit you, and the next timeyou're fine.

(18:36):
Uh so it helps to have you knowgood heart health, of course.
Uh, but we've had overweightpeople in their 60s and 70s do
it with no problem, where peoplein their 20s get hit with it.
Most of the people that end uphaving some symptoms are fine.
They make up to the top, theyjust kind of have to push
through it.
When I did it the first time, Iwas definitely pushing through

(18:57):
some of those symptoms, as wasmy friend.
We just had like a day offeeling uncomfortable, lost a
little bit of appetite andsleep, but it was fine.
Now, the people that are kind ofgetting dizzy, throwing up
continuously and whatnot, thoseare the people we really have to
look after.
And a lot of times when it getsto that point, we take them down
the mountain.
But we've got about a 95% uhsuccess rate, right?

(19:17):
Just because you know, theguide's setting the pace,
looking after people and makingsure that everyone, you know, is
is good.
You know, we we take oxidationreadings via your fingers.
We've got like a little thingyou clamp on and it measures
your your oxygen level.
Uh, and so we do that everynight and kind of like keep
track of that to make sureeveryone's getting enough
oxygen.
You know, and we take the theoxygen canister, like I said,

(19:39):
but we tell people, you know, ifyou get to that point, we got to
take you down.

SPEAKER_02 (19:43):
Yeah, it's just to get you down, otherwise you'd be
carrying all this oxygen foreveryone.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
And it's it's not even like a huge tank.
It's it's like that big.
Um, so it's not like a hugething.
You know, we've got multipleones depending on how big big
the group is, but it's just itmeans that it's that bad that we
can get you down by there's akind of a Escape route that just
kind of goes pretty muchstraight down the mountain.
That's not the one you take upbecause when you're going up,
you want to go up high and thencamp lower.

(20:08):
Go up high again, camp lower toget your body used to it.
But there is a route where youcan get down really quick.
And that is uh, you know, by thetime you're three and a half
hours down the mountain, almosteveryone's just like, I'm fine,
like I can I can do it again.
Like, let me back up.
Like, no, you can't, you can't.
Like, you even my partner Josh,he's he's had the same thing

(20:29):
happen multiple times.
He's like, I feel better now.
Yeah, I don't have to go to thehospital or anything.
And it's like, no, you gotta yougotta sit this one out if you
got that far.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:36):
Okay.
So one of our guests back in ourDecember launch, uh, Andrew Hare
has this whole jet leg kind oflike it's like herbs and stuff
you take.
He said when you go in the air,you get less oxygen and the
cabin pressure and stuff.
I wonder if he has somethingkind of like for altitude
sickness when you go up.

SPEAKER_00 (20:57):
I have um heard of natural remedies.
I forget what it is offhand, butthere is like an herbal remedy
that you can take.
Uh, but we also recommend toanybody that's able to take uh a
specific drug that's calledDiamox to take it.
Um I have done with and without,and I've seen people do it with
and without.
And as long as you're notallergic to uh sulfur-based

(21:19):
medication, it helps a lot.
Sulfur-based S-U-L-F-A.
It's a class of medication.
And so if they're able to takeit, it's always recommended
because it helps your red bloodcells carry more oxygen
throughout your body.
And so it it helps a lot.
And I was there, like, and I'vehad guests there too, where it's
like, I want to see, I want topush my body and like see how

(21:40):
far I can go and everything.
But the problem is once you getto that point where you're
feeling like crap, it's too lateto take it.
You have to take, you know, youstart it like two days before
and you're taking it every day,you know, morning and night.
And so if you all of a suddenfeel these symptoms, it's too
late for you, and you're justgonna have to deal with it.
I've been on hikes with peoplethat said, I wanna, I wanna test

(22:01):
myself.
I'm okay, fine, but just want tolet you know what to expect.
And then they feel it andthey're like, Oh, I wish I just
kid.

SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
Was it my daughter?

SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I told you.

SPEAKER_02 (22:10):
I I told you so, but uh it's kind of like the
dramamine where like we went outin Hawaii, like a little cruise
or something while watching it,and my daughter's like, Oh, we
do fine.
And she's like, Oh, I feel wellsealed.
Then she took the dramamine.
She was already sick, and thenshe just got really sleepy.
It was like just the horribleexperience.
I'm like, okay.
No, I'm sleepy and sick.
No, I'm gonna be unstick.
Oh gosh.

(22:32):
Yeah, I was just curious, like,how do you uh so you graduate
college, you have this webdevelopment company, you start
to travel.
What bridged from that to abusiness and thrive, you know,
and and now it sounds like it'sfull-time and you're doing
trips.
And and I'm assuming Josh ispart of that, I think it sounds

(22:52):
like as well.
Um, for your all of your Africaones or Tanzania ones, is that
right?

SPEAKER_00 (22:58):
Exactly.
Yeah.
So if I hadn't met Josh, I wouldnot have this company.
It's just a matter that weconnected and I thought he was
such a good person.
And the fact that, you know, Isaid to him, to continue the
story we're talking about, Iwent over to his house on the
way.
Uh, my my friend and I went overto the house after Kilimanjaro
on the way, uh, in the in the uhvehicle.
I said, Josh, you're like reallygood at what you do.

(23:19):
Have you ever thought aboutstarting your own business?
He said, Well, you know, I'mdiversifying about like I put
some money into this farm andmaybe opening up a shop in the
neighborhood or something likethat.
And I said, like, you're reallygood at what you do, what I just
saw you do for two weeks.
What do you say?
We partner up, we launch acompany, I take care of
basically building the businessand getting the clients, you
take care of everything on theground.

(23:41):
And he basically said, yes.
And so we did that, think, and Iwas thinking, oh, I'm just gonna
be starting it up, making thewebsite, getting people, sending
them over, and gettingcommission.
Well, it wasn't that easybecause he didn't know how to be
an entrepreneur and I didn'tknow the tourism field or doing
business in Tanzania, Africa ingeneral.
We both had a lot to learn.
It was very slow roll for a fewfirst few years.

(24:03):
We didn't make a lot of money,we spent a lot of time just
growing organically.
Um, the first you know, year wehad one customer, uh, you know,
so it was very, very, very slow.
No, yeah.
Like, you know, throughout theyears, you know, we we found out
that we worked very welltogether and we still do, and
we're really lucky in that we wenever have any disagreements.
We both think very much the sameabout all the important issues.

(24:25):
Yeah, we're we're just on thesame page without even needing
to like talk about it.
Like everything that I couldtrust him and the team
completely with everything.
He just takes control of stuff.
He's like, hey, I did this, Idid this, and so on.
Like, oh, cool.
Well, I did this and this.
It's like, all right, cool.
Uh, it's it's very easy, it'svery seamless.
And yes, so he he takes care ofeverything over there.
Uh, we're based in northernTanzania, but we do uh trips

(24:46):
now, also combining you know,Tanzania with Kenya or Uganda,
Rwanda, guerrilla trekking,chimpanzee trekking, Lake
Victoria and Zambia, Zimbabwe,um, Botswana.
So we work with those countriesas well now.
Um so we expanded a little bit.
We're still still based inTanzania, still our bread and
butter.
And you know, I've been all overAfrica and done safaris
everywhere, and I could say likeTanzania, although it is a

(25:09):
little bit more expensive, uh,they charge higher park fees uh
to keep you know the parks uh inin good condition, but it is
amazing and has a ton of stuffthat no other country has.
So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (25:18):
So I have a neighbor that um they would go hunting in
Africa, and they were verythrilled with this.
And I don't agree with it, butand they were showing like the
like you know the what theyhunted, and then they said uh US
tour person said, like, don'thunt the uh zebras, and they're
like, Oh no, they have too manyzebras over there, like the

(25:42):
local people really want us toshoot the zebras.
I'm like, is that someone justmaking up a story to feel okay
about themselves?
Like, do people shoot?
Like, so d do the Africans likehate Americans coming over and
shooting their zebras, or arethey like, oh yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 (25:57):
It's it's uh it's a thorny issue with many complex
bits to it.
Um so we so I I should mention,like, we don't do hunting.
Uh we do photo safaris, and uhuh I think there is a place for
hunting um done in the rightway.
Uh there are many places,countries in general that don't
do it in the right way,according to myself.

(26:19):
Like I said, there's manydifferent viewpoints.
I would say that um no, thatlike zebras are not apatheo.
There's far less wildlife ingeneral in Africa and elsewhere
throughout the world than thereused to be because there's so
many more humans.
And we, you know, built ourlives in these places where the
animals are and we're pushingthem out of their habitats.
And so the thing is when animalsand humans meet, oftentimes

(26:42):
there's issues, whether it beelephants coming and stealing
crops or to a much lesserextent, zebras, because zebras
eat grass, you know, zebras areare herbivores that eat grass
along with like will bees andmany other animals.
So they're not like a pest.
Yeah, there's a lot of them, butit's not the same issue as like
some states that say there's toomany white-tailed deer because
there's no predators and thepopulation gets out of control

(27:05):
and there's like famine wherelike deer are starving and
whatnot.
That's a little bit different.
You don't usually see that inAfrica, and so I wouldn't go as
far as to say, oh, there's liketoo many zebra or something like
that.
As far as hunting, though, thereis a way where you can do it uh
sustainably and in a right waywhere you know, let's say you
are only hunting older males uhthat are you know not gonna be

(27:28):
reproducing anymore, and they'realready at the end of their life
cycle, and you know, you you dothat and you charge a lot of
money for it.
And the the trickiest part ismaking sure that money goes back
into you know ecologicalconcerns into the park and
anti-poaching and things likethat.
However, it just like manydeveloping countries, and I'm

(27:49):
sure a lot of developed ones,uh, the money has a way of just
kind of disappearing intopockets and whatnot.
That's hard to you know oversee.
Uh you you really hope that themoney goes to the right place,
uh, but you can't guarantee it.
So you just have to, you know,if you are a hunter, you just
have to kind of do your duediligence and um and pick
something that you knowhopefully the the money goes to

(28:11):
the right place.
You know, because a lot ofhunters are very ecologically
minded.
You know, I'm I'm not a hunter,but uh I know a lot of them
really care about uh ecology andsustainable hunting and whatnot.
And so there is a way to do it.
It's just uh yeah, we we don'tdo that personally, but I I am
in that that world as far as youknow, we operate near where
those reserves are.
Uh there's no hunting in thenational parks in Tanzania at

(28:33):
all, but there are separatereserves generally butting up
against the park where that isallowed.

SPEAKER_02 (28:38):
Okay.
And so where do you guys go inTanzania specifically?
So Mount Kilimajero, there'slike Lake Victoria and where are
the safaris?

SPEAKER_00 (28:47):
Um so they're all over the country.
Uh it's it's over 25% nationalparks.
The the country.
I think it's 20, maybe 27%.
And they're adding parks uhevery few years as well.
So they're doing a good job inthat way.
And there's also reserves whichare separate.
Uh that's where the hunting cantake place, but it's still
protected.

(29:07):
And then you've got mixed-useland areas like Ingorangoro,
which is not a national park,that's a giant crater, 12 by 12
miles.
Uh, it's an extinct volcano thatit erupted.
At one time they think it wasbigger than Kilimanjaro, blew
the top off, and now it's a bigcaldera where all the animals go
into it, and they have like awhole ecosystem just within
these 12 by 12 miles inside ofthis volcano.

(29:29):
Really cool.
Wow.
Wait, and where is that?

SPEAKER_02 (29:32):
Where is that?
I was looking, I'm looking at amap.
Do I know?

SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
This is between Arusha City uh and the
Serengeti.
So on your way to the Serengeti,you always drive through it.
And so we take all of our gueststhere that want to do that
northern circuit, we call it,uh, which is the most popular
circuit.
It takes you to uh TarangideNational Park for the elephants.
It takes you to NgorangoroCrater, which uh is what I'm
talking about right now, andthen it takes you to the
Serengeti, which is the size ofConnecticut alone, and it's uh

(29:57):
it's about uh 6,000 square milesof you know, pristine wilderness
full of literally millions ofanimals.
And the Great Migration, ifyou've heard about that as well,
uh, is in the Serengetiecosystem.
You know, it's it's amazing.
Like you a lot of people uh thatcome with us think like, oh,
like we might see an animal hereand there, and like get out your

(30:18):
binoculars, and like, oh, Ithink I could kind of see
something.
Because like they do safaris andother places, and I've done them
too, where that's kind of howit's done.
Here, you never come over andnot see animals and not see a
ton of animals to the pointwhere like day three, you're
like, ah, more giraffes andlions and and and like

(30:40):
elephants, like let's go forlike uh leopards or something
they haven't seen yet, becausethere's just so many of them
everywhere, and they're gettingnext to your car, like they're
all over the place.
And because of the density ofanimals, which in Tanzania is
much better than most places inlike uh, especially natural
places, not like uh uhartificially run reserves like

(31:02):
in South Africa sometimes wherethey like fly in animals and
they fence it off andeverything.
This is all natural, and there'smillions of animals everywhere,
and they're acting like theywould have acted, you know,
thousands of years ago, and it'sjust it's amazing.
Like there's the density ofanimals.
You could look off in onedirection and see the great
migration.
You're literally looking atthousands of animals as far as

(31:24):
the eye can see, and you justdon't get that opportunity in uh
you know pretty much anywhereelse.
It the great migration hits alittle bit of Kenya as well
during certain times of theyear, but uh yeah, this is the
only place where you could seethis.

SPEAKER_02 (31:38):
So, why do I know the Serengeti?
Isn't that some sort of war?
Why am I thinking that I thinkit's I think it's in the or the
Sarangeti?
I'm gonna say it's in Disney orsomething.
Where do I know?

SPEAKER_00 (31:47):
Serengeti Serengeti ecosystem.
Uh so Kenya and Tanzania iswhere they took the animators
that that drew the Lion King touh study the animals and their
behavior so that they couldanimate it uh in that way.
And so a lot of the uh thefeatures, the geological
features and everything andanimal movement and stuff is
taken straight from uh Tanzaniaand Kenya area, which are right

(32:08):
next to each other, very similarcountries.
Uh and so maybe that, I mean, itit is considered the crown jewel
of Tanzania.
You know, just it's huge, fullof animals.
It's it's like you know, whereeveryone wants to visit.

SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
And uh the trips that you're doing, oh, I was
just curious.
Um, so how many types it soundslike you've got a lot of
different trips.
And how long have you guys beenoperating?

SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
Uh we're going into our 16th year now.

SPEAKER_02 (32:31):
Wow, that's awesome.
Congratulations.
And what's the trip if someonewas interested, where how would
they look it up?
And how much does it reallycost?

SPEAKER_00 (32:39):
Pomoja Safaris.
Now there are a few companiesthat came out and took, they
call it Pomoja something likePomoja Kilimanjaro Safaris or
Pomoja Uganda Safari, stuff likethat.
We're the original PomojaSafari.
So it's so it's P-A-M-O-J-ASafari.
So Pomoja Safaris.com or atPomoja Safaris.

SPEAKER_02 (32:56):
What does Pomoja stand for?
Is it a specific word?

SPEAKER_00 (32:59):
Good question.
So this is Swahili.
Uh so the the word safari is aSwahili word and it means to
journey.
Pomoja means together.
So basically travel together isthe name of our company.
Got it.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (33:11):
Oh love it.
When are the good times?
I'm assuming summer must bereally hot.
So is it like fall or spring orand then um how much do the
trips usually cost?

SPEAKER_00 (33:22):
And how many people too?
How many people?
Oh, yeah.
So so all of our trips arecustom private.
So whether you're a singletraveler that is cool with
traveling alone, you want thatprivate experience, or you're a
fan group, you know, ahoneymooners, or you're a
family, or you're a group offriends, or something.
We basically take your groupsize, what you want to do, where
you want to go, how many daysyou've got, what time of year,

(33:43):
and then we create uh a specialitinerary just for you based on
those criteria.
So uh there is no bad time tocome.
There's always animals.
However, it is rainy or uhmid-March through mid-May.
So we generally say, uh, justskip those two months.
We'll give our staff some timeoff.
And it gets a bit muddy andrainy.
Some people still come, it's alittle cheaper, but generally we

(34:06):
steer people away from visitingduring those times of year.
But yeah, trips can range.
Uh sometimes we have people justasking for a few days.
They're like, oh, we finished amission trip and we just want
to, you know, do a few days inthe Serengeti or something like
that.
And we'll do like a three-daytrip.
But generally, people are comingover from the States or Europe
or Australia, uh, even Colombia.
We've had more people from SouthAmerica coming too, and they'll

(34:28):
spend a minimum of like seven,eight, sometimes twelve,
fourteen days.
And we'll we'll do the wholething, you know, whether they
want to stay in Tanzania or theywant to combine it with Kenya,
or they want to do guerrillatrekking in Tanzania, or they
want to do Tanzania and then goto Zanzibar Island for some fun
in the sun for a few daysafterward, uh, which like about
half of our guests do.
Yeah, we'll we'll just uh takeall that consideration.

(34:50):
We'll just build them something.
And um, as far as pricing, uhgenerally it's about it's
pricing starts for a standardlike four-star accommodation,
about six hundred dollars perperson per day, all inclusive on
the ground.
Um, so quite affordable uh whenyou consider a lot of companies
are charging a lot more thanthat.
We keep our operations small andevery a lot of stuff is you

(35:11):
know, our team is virtual, um,you know, except for the team
we've got in Tanzania on theground, of course.

SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Um pickup from the airport, um, food,
transportation, everything.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (35:22):
We we even build in gratuity based gratuity because
we feel that it builds a itcreates a better experience when
people aren't worried aboutokay, how much do I bring, what
denominations, keeping the moneysafe during the trip, and then
like awkwardly handing it topeople.
Um, so we build that in in orderto attract and keep the best
talent.
Uh, because we you know we'reall about our people, right?

(35:44):
Our our guides, you know, likeyou're with this person the
entire time, uh, you know, yourentire trip, you know, your
safari portion of your trip.
So we want to make sure thatthey're smart, they're educated,
they speak good English, they'rethey're fun to be around,
they're funny.
Um, and so that's how we do thatis that you know we we build
these relationships with peoplelong term.
And an easy way to do that is uhobviously to treat them well and

(36:06):
to pay them well.
And so we always do that becausea lot of companies, they don't
pay their their guides anything.
Um there might be a small littlebase pay, almost like what
waiters are paid in the US, youknow, like$265 an hour.
It's like basically like that.
Uh they leave it all up to theguests to basically pay the
salary of the guides.
And and sometimes like they'vebuilt their own like guests,

(36:28):
like they come from anon-tipping culture or a culture
where they tip a lot less.
Um, like Asia, you know, likeyou're not used to tipping, or
Europe, maybe it's like 10%.
That's why all the guides uhthat are working for the other
companies, especially clamor forthe American guests because
Americans, you know, tip so welluh that they always want
Americans.
And um, you know, so we justkind of like in order to, you

(36:50):
know, we work with people fromall over the world, but
definitely a lot of Americans.
And so we we build that in andwe're like, hey, you know, you
are guaranteed this amount ofmoney for you and your family
when you're going on this trip.
Everything else is cherry ontop.
So we found that works reallynicely.

SPEAKER_02 (37:05):
And then what is that the same 600 bucks per
person per day for what aboutKilimanjaro?
Like if and I don't even knowwhere that is.

SPEAKER_00 (37:12):
K Kilimanjaro is less, but um, you know, for that
eight-day trip that I wastelling you about, it you know,
if you were to come in, let'ssay just for Kilimanjaro, that's
like an 11-day trip because youhave to be there for two days
beforehand because you fly in,next day is prep and gear and
everything, then you start thetrip, and then you've got an
additional night at the end, andthen you fly out.
If you're just to come in, doKili, fly out, like that's an
11-day trip.

(37:33):
So um it's actually a little bitless than that.
Um, you know, if I was to say,I'm just doing calculations
right here, uh 600 times 11.
No, it's that's way too high.
Uh so Kilimanjaro would becloser to 400 a day.
Uh and you know, that's becausethe uh we don't have, you know,
you're not driving using the thefuel for the land cruiser every

(37:55):
day, uh, and you're not payinguh for the accommodation you're
you're camping.
Um and although we you we makeit as comfortable as possible in
camping, it's still gonna cost alot less than you know spending
money at a hotel.

SPEAKER_02 (38:06):
So you would provide the sleeping bags and all the
equipment you have to like lugyour backpack.
And where would you fly into?
Is there multiple places inTanzania or normally everyone
goes to generally KilimanjaroAirport?

SPEAKER_00 (38:19):
So that's JRO um airport.
And for all your tours?
For most of them, yeah.
So the the biggest majority ofpeople, especially first timers,
go on what we call the NorthCircuit.
So that is the crater, that isSerengeti.
Um that has so many animals thatare so easy to see.
It's a very easy route to do,and so we find that that's the

(38:41):
best place to kind of show offTanzania.
Um, for people that are comingback second, third time, uh,
they'll want to do somethingelse generally, although some
we've had people come seventimes, the same exact itinerary.
Uh, but for a lot of people,they they want to do like
chimpanzee trekking in the west,or they want to do the southern
circuit, which we would have tofly them uh a domestic flight

(39:02):
basically from Kilimanjaro, thatthat area basically, uh down
south, and then do a differentcircuit.
And that's uh a few a set of afew different other parks called
uh like Ruaha Park or NyererdePark, um, that kind of that that
general area is a lot lesspeople.
However, there's more groundcover, and so it's a little bit
more difficult to see theanimals.

(39:24):
You won't see that spectacle oflike tons of animals over the
plains.
You've got to gotta work alittle bit more for it, but some
people really want to stay awayfrom the crowds, and so you
know, we we recommend placeslike that if they want to do
that.

SPEAKER_02 (39:37):
Wow.
I see a lot of islands too, offof Tanzania or others too.

SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
The Zanzibar archipelago.

SPEAKER_02 (39:44):
Oh, Zanzibar, okay.
That's what you were talkingabout, too.

SPEAKER_00 (39:46):
And and yeah, you've got Zanzibar, so uh Ngunjah,
Ngunja uh Island, which is themain Zanzibar Island, and you've
got Pemba, and you've got MafiaIsland, and there's a few other
ones around that area.
And so uh most people again,first time they do Zanzibar.
Or you know, the main island inGunja, uh, and that's like easy,
it's approachable.
And then second time they mightgo to like Pemba, uh, which is a

(40:09):
little bit quieter and you know,few fewer accommodations and
stuff like that.
So, yeah, or Mafia Island, uh,which is even smaller and less
built up.
So uh it's all the same weather,beautiful, crystal clear blue
waters, white sand beaches, um,a totally different culture than
the mainland because it used tobe uh separate country up until
uh 1964, uh when they mergedwith Tanganyika, which is what

(40:34):
Tanzania used to be called, andthey combined the two.
They took the TA fromTanganyika, the ZA from
Zanzibar, and Tia means country.
So basically they they're likewilling, like willingness to
combine together.
And so, yeah, they theybasically uh joined together
because Zanzibar was basically alittle bit too small to be its
own country, and they wantedprotection from anybody else

(40:57):
that might try to take over.
But before that, it we used tobe actually part of the Omani
Sultanate, and so it's uh veryheavily Muslim culture.
Um about 30% of Tanzania isMuslim, about 30%, 40%
Christian, let's say, and therest is uh you know animist and
you know, traditional religionand stuff like that.
So uh everyone, you know, forthe most part, all gets along.

(41:18):
Um it's a very multiculturalsociety, over 120 tribes.
Um, and you know, you don't youever hear about like ethnic
tensions or religious tensionsand stuff like that.
It's a very, very safe, calmcountry.
Um, there were some protestsrecently about a disputed
election, uh, but you know, likewe've been there for 16 years
and it's been very, very quiet.
Um, and you know, which is youknow, you take other places that

(41:41):
are like Kenya that are rightnext to like South Sudan and
Somalia, and it's a little bitdicey, not so much in the
tourism areas, but you know, itit pays a lot to have some nice
neighbors on your borders, andthey're they're generally pretty
lucky with their neighbors.

SPEAKER_02 (41:54):
Wow, that's pretty impressive.
This is really neat.
I know you we usually do likeslow travel and um you know,
living somewhere or stayingsomewhere and how that is.
And um, I know that time flew.
I'm like, oh my gosh, this isgonna be interesting with you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:10):
And uh we could we could do a third episode after
the Japan episode all about thatbecause I've I've lived for
years traveling around, youknow, living in Bangkok and
living in Istanbul and and stufflike that.
Oh my gosh, really?

SPEAKER_03 (42:19):
Those places we've oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (42:21):
I've been I've been a digital, a digital nomad, I
guess you could say, since about2002.
So yeah, I've been many, manyplaces.

SPEAKER_02 (42:28):
Okay.
I definitely want to I'll emailyou.
I'm I'm looking at doing thatmyself.
I've got my kids in high schooland I've got a business that I
can just be anywhere.
So it's like I want to travelthe world for a couple of years.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I highly recommend it.
Yeah, absolutely.
Very good.
So a couple of our uh rapid firequestions, but some aren't so

(42:48):
relevant to like living, butsome are great.
Um, so what are what's yourfavorite food when you get
there?
Like if you're gonna get onemeal in Tanzania, what would you
have?

SPEAKER_00 (42:58):
So it especially Arusha, uh, which is where we're
based, uh, is built on theslopes of the second highest uh
mountain in Tanzania calledMount Meru.
And the soils are volcanicbecause it's an extinct volcano.
And so you've got a ton of freshseasonal fruit and veggies
around.
And that's actually what I lovethe most, is when I tend to go
over there end of year, it tendsto be peak season for avocados

(43:21):
and mangoes.
And these little bananas thatare grown on the slopes of
Kilimanjaro as well, are like somuch better than the bananas
that we have here.

SPEAKER_02 (43:28):
What's a what is different about the bananas?

SPEAKER_00 (43:30):
It's like a little bit like it's a little bit more
firm, it's a little bit morelike tart instead of just being
like mushy and sweet.
It's just got like a moretexture.
I can eat that like sometimes Ijust eat five of them.
They're so good.
Yeah.
Uh so I I really love and likepassion fruit too.
They have all these amazingfruits and veggies.
Wow.
And it's all like it's all likeorganic, locally made, you know.
Yeah, uh, that's kind of thething I love the most over

(43:52):
there.

SPEAKER_02 (43:53):
And do they do they eat a lot of meat?
What's the meat?
Is it like pork, chicken, locallocals?

SPEAKER_00 (43:58):
You know, they they tend to eat like a lot of um
ugali, which is like a polenta,or rice and beans and eggs and
stuff like that.
And meat's kind of reserved forspecial occasions.
Um chicken is is pretty commonor goat barbecue.
Uh, but when you're there as atourist, you've got the whole
shebang.
You know, you've got fish, yougot all types of meats and
veggies.
We work with people with likeyou know, food allergies or

(44:19):
preferences, vegans,vegetarians, lactose uh
tolerant.
We are able to like, you know,to fit all of them in.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (44:26):
Okay.
And what's your what do you havefor breakfast normally?

SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
Breakfast is usually a buffet.
Um, I usually skip breakfastbecause when I'm over there,
you're riding a lot in vehicles,and I don't feel like I get
those 10,000 steps in today.
So you know, three big meals,and I have a problem limiting my
portions.
So I find it's a it's easier tojust like skip it and then eat
lunch and dinner.
But uh the breakfasts arealways, you know, there's always
like an omelet station and and abunch of like you know, Danishes

(44:52):
and stuff like that, and fruit,and oh like there's bacon, yeah,
yeah.
Like people that are breakfastpeople are never uh left.

SPEAKER_02 (44:59):
You know, what about breakfast in Tanzania for the
locals?
Like, what did typically do theyeat for breakfast and um beans?

SPEAKER_00 (45:07):
So a lot of times it'll be um it's it's not that
much different than what youwould eat for lunch.
Uh so it'll be like rice, beans,ugali, um, maybe a little bit of
fish or chicken.
It's just you know the amount offood or local spinach is really
good too.
Uh just the amount of food isless.
Um yeah, they have a lot ofculture from when they used to

(45:28):
be uh a British colony, andbefore that a German colony, and
before that, heavy influencefrom the Arabs um and the
Indians that came over with theEnglish.
And so it's really like acombination of cultures.
The language, Swahili, is a mixof cultures, the food is a mix
of cultures, they have chapati,they have curries, stuff like
that.
You know, everywhere.
Yeah.
Um those curries are really nicetoo.

(45:49):
I do like chapati and curry.

SPEAKER_02 (45:51):
Okay.
And it really sounds like thisis probably a destination you do
want to go on a tour.
Like if someone were to go likeby themselves, like how would
you even get around train, bus?
You need a guide.

SPEAKER_00 (46:04):
It's possible.
So for the safari portion, youreally do need a guide.
It's technically possible torent a four-wheel drive vehicle
and make your way there, but youdon't know the roads, which are
seasonal, they're not on GoogleMaps.
Uh, you don't know where theanimals are because you don't
speak Swahili and have a radio.
So you'd kind of be like payingall this money to get over
there, and then you're gonnamiss a lot of you know the cool
stuff.

(46:25):
Um, but to just go over thereand hang out with the locals and
whatnot, some people do it.
You just have to uh do yourresearch as far as how to use
the public transportation systemcalled Daladala's, like little
minibuses.

SPEAKER_01 (46:37):
Is it really called Daladala?

SPEAKER_00 (46:39):
Daladala's, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
Oh my gosh, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (46:41):
Um, they have a different word for it in each
country, but yeah, they'recalled Daladala's there.
It's it's really cheap andyou're packed in like sardines,
16 people in a minivan.
You just have to be okay withthat.
Right.
You could do it, you could dothat part on your own.
You can go to Zanzborough onyour own.
Kilimanjaro, you have to have aguide.
You have to have a group ofporters and everything with you.
Uh and for safaris, I say likealmost everyone does it with a

(47:01):
guide in the group.
Um technically it's feasible,but not recommended.

SPEAKER_02 (47:06):
Okay.
And then what is the moneycalled and how do you deal with
the money?
I mean, I would assume you haveto spend some of your own money
for souvenirs and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (47:15):
Um so nowadays, post-COVID, almost everywhere
takes, even like small shops,take credit card.
Uh so it's made things a loteasier.
Uh, but for the local currencyis the Tanzanian shilling.
It's about 2,500 shillings tothe US dollar.
We tell people generally don'tconvert your money because the
largest bill they have is 10,000shillings, which is four

(47:35):
dollars.
So if you exchange$100, you'vegot a stack of cash.
Uh and it's it's kind ofunwieldy.
So, tourism sector.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Right.
And the tourism sector basicallyruns on USD.
So you could use Americandollars everywhere.
They prefer American dollars.
And so we say, just bringdollars, and if you don't use it
on the bottom, just take it backwith you, you know.
So just bring a few hundredbucks for souvenirs or whatever,

(47:57):
extra tips, whatever you want todo.

SPEAKER_02 (47:59):
So, what do like the Europeans do?
Do they try to they do like theeuro just as much, or are they
really like US dollars?

SPEAKER_00 (48:04):
We don't like it as much, uh, but they will take
euro, uh, pounds a lot less so.
Uh, but they do really do preferUS dollars.

SPEAKER_02 (48:12):
So I mean, we should I mean, as an American, like
we're so lucky, they can goalmost anywhere and get speak
English.
People love the US dollar, like,yay, America.

SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, we are very, we are very,very privileged.

SPEAKER_02 (48:24):
Yes.
And we have passports.
I heard some people can't evenget passports to leave their
countries.

SPEAKER_00 (48:29):
Like, yep, exactly.
I've got friends that are inthat situation.
It's yeah, it's sad.

SPEAKER_02 (48:34):
So, what kind of uh do we need shots?
Do we need visas?
Or you guys help figure that allout?

SPEAKER_00 (48:40):
Yep, visas are a hundred bucks for Americans,
fifty dollars for most otherpeople, which seems like, oh
hey, what why are they chargingmore?
Well, it's because the UScharges more for everyone else's
visa as well.
And also ours is multiple entryand the other ones are single
entry.
So it kind of gives us a littlebit of a leg up uh as Americans.
But um, you apply online, prettyeasy process, um, and then

(49:00):
they'll just uh approve it andyou just give them the uh your
uh passport when you get to theimmigration and they'll find you
in the system and you're you'regood to go.
Uh as far as shots, you don'tneed anything, nothing is is
required.
Oh really?
Okay.
Yep.
I mean, you know, the the stufffor when you're traveling to a
developing country is alwaysnice, tetanus and maybe typhoid
or something like that.
They're usual travel shots, butyou don't need anything.

(49:22):
The only exception is if you areuh transiting or you're visiting
a country that is known to behave yellow fever in it, like
Kenya or Uganda or Ethiopia orBrazil or something like that.
A lot of countries are yellowfever endemic.
Uh Tanzania has done a reallygood job of getting rid of it in
the country.
And so they want to make sure ifyou're coming from that country,

(49:43):
you don't bring it intoTanzania.
So they will ask for a yellowfever vaccination certificate if
you are stopping by one of thoseplaces.
If you don't go out of theairport, you're good.
You just tell them, hey, yeah, Ijust I came via Kenya on a
flight or Ethiopia, but I didn'tleave the airport.
And they'll be like, How longwere you there?
And you're like, you know, twohours, four hours, whatever.
Like, okay.
Um, but if you do leave theairport, you do spend any time

(50:03):
over there, then you need tohave that yellow fever
vaccination certificate.
So that's that's the onlyexception.

SPEAKER_02 (50:07):
Is that a hard vaccination?
Like um one and done.
One and done.
And do you is there usually umsymptoms or anything?

SPEAKER_00 (50:15):
Or um um I'm I'm sure there are for some people.
I remember I didn't have anysymptoms.
Um, but uh yeah, it's uh it'sone of the easier vaccinations.
You know, with tetanus, your armhurts for a few days.
So uh no, I I remember this onebeing very easy, and it used to
expire in 10 years, but theyjust changed it uh so that you
know one is good uh for mostpeople for their lifetime.

SPEAKER_02 (50:36):
And then also uh water.
Is the water drinking water?
How is that?
And do you think most places?

SPEAKER_00 (50:42):
Yeah, most places uh you shouldn't drink the water.
You know, it's it's uh a properlike system, but like you know,
just like Mexico, your bodyisn't used to it.
So we recommend that you brushyour teeth with the bottled
water that we provide you duringthe whole trip and it's at your
lodges as well.
Um, and you just drink that.
We've got plenty of it in thevehicle when you're there, and
there's plenty of it at thelodges.
Um, some of the lodges do haveuh built-in water filtration

(51:05):
system uh systems, so you canjust drink from the top, but
most of them do not.
We we tell people, okay, you youcould drink it here, but
everywhere else, like, you know,do not drink.

SPEAKER_02 (51:13):
Yeah.
Okay, great.
Well, thank you so much.
So just a reminder how to findyou.
It's P A M-O-J-A-Safaris.com orat Pomo just Safaris on those
social channels.

SPEAKER_00 (51:27):
Uh Instagram, Instagram, Instagram, Facebook.
We we share a lot of fun posts.
Uh my my social media lady,Melissa, does a really good job.
Uh she's based in she's based inCalifornia, for yeah, it's okay.
And she all all all our goodstuff can be found there.

SPEAKER_02 (51:45):
Oh, that's so great.
Okay, so yeah, so I definitelywe want to have you back for
Japan.
Yeah, definitely.
And and I think even just like Ithink a fun episode is not
really kind of our normal, butlike how to build a lifestyle
with travel and and and and beable to do it work.
I mean, some people do that, butlike, yeah, I'll be picking.

(52:05):
Yeah, you'd be yeah, we can wewe'll watch Kristen's journey
the next year later to go tolater.
She's been well, yeah, she's gotsome good travel this year so
far.
So we'll see.
Yeah, hopefully.
Okay, uh, I thought I was goingon a horse um like kind of city
slickers type trip um for ninedays in uh Georgia.

(52:26):
And then um and I'm I'm going,and it ended up being not
Georgia the state, but Georgiathe country.
So Oh, did you think it was astate?
I thought it was a state.
Amazing.
And then I brought up the linkfor my friend.
She's like, hey, we're gonna dothis.
I'm like, I'm in, I I want to doit no matter what.
And then I'm like, does Georgiahave that a flag like that?

(52:49):
That's weird.
And then I'm scrolling downscrolling down, and I'm like,
wait a minute, why is it talkingabout pizza or some sort of
different?
And then yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:59):
You're in for a treat because I've not been to
Georgia.
I have a lot of friends thathave.
I've wanted to go for over adecade.
Oh wow.
Beautiful, the people areamazing, the food is so
delicious.
Oh, that's what I heard.
It's at the top of my to-golist.

SPEAKER_02 (53:11):
Oh, well, I'll send you this link.
Well, that's backwards is kindof different.
So it should be, it's calledUnicorn Trails is the um the
tour company or something.
So it should be fun and it's uhpriced right.
I mean, yeah, the price was likereally pretty good too.
So, but we're moving theirhorses.
There's two trips that move fromthe winter to the summer place

(53:31):
and then the summer back to thewinter place.

SPEAKER_00 (53:33):
Ah, like a repositioning cruise.
Neat.

SPEAKER_02 (53:35):
Yep.
So I'll be for thatrepositioning crew and riding
seven days, six to ten hours aday.

SPEAKER_00 (53:42):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (53:43):
Like a cowboy.
Oh wow.
But I I I rode for 25 years, butI haven't been hiding in the
last couple of years.
I'm like, okay, I got it.
I just was on a horse.

SPEAKER_00 (53:50):
I was gonna say, I uh the this is maybe not for a
uh beginner or first timer.
I haven't ridden in a while, butuh I could see that hurting
after a while.

SPEAKER_02 (53:59):
Right, exactly.
You're still going and stilltraffic pampering and going up,
but it the video I saw wasreally pretty and I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 (54:06):
So oh yeah, that'll be a great show.
Wow, that's gonna be super socool.

SPEAKER_02 (54:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, we'll definitely do anepisode just on that, Kristen.
Right, exactly, because that isso unique.
Oh my goodness.
All right, well, Scott, you'vebeen really fun to talk to.
I just really appreciate youreaching out and wanting to talk
to us.
This was dude for fun the wearnext show.

SPEAKER_00 (54:25):
Yeah, thanks for the great questions.

SPEAKER_02 (54:27):
Yeah, this has been and we know a lot of other
podcasters if you want anyintroductions to other people.

SPEAKER_00 (54:31):
Oh yeah, please.
Uh I'm I I could talk about thisall day for multiple days, you
know.
Like it's I I I'm lucky enough,you know, in that we've been
doing it so long that I I knowit pretty well now.
And uh, you know, it's it'sreally just like one of my
passions, you know, in that likeI I get paid to go on safaris.
Like, how cool is that, youknow?
I get paid to eat food in Japan.
Like I I'm lucky enough where Iwas able to develop a life based

(54:54):
around things that I love andgetting paid for.
So you know, like naturally, Ican just talk about this stuff
all day.

SPEAKER_02 (54:59):
Awesome.
Cool.
Great.
All right, well, have a greatweekend and we'll be in touch.
Yes, cool.
Thank you so much, Scott.
Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_03 (55:08):
Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_02 (55:09):
Bye.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed the podcast, canyou please take a second and do
a quick follow of the show andrate us in your podcast app.
And if you have a minute, wewould really appreciate a
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Following and rating is the bestway to support us.
If you're on Instagram, let'sconnect.
We're at Wear Next Podcast.

(55:31):
Thanks again.