Spiritually Grounded Activism (w/ Kazu Haga)

Episode Transcript
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Kazu Haga (00:00):
And so I think so much of the work that we need to do starts within our

(00:03):
own movement spaces of like, how do wecreate that culture where even if I do
or say the worst possible thing, I knowthat I still belong because it's the way
that the universe is structured, right?
There's nothing outside of belonging.
And so how do we givepeople that felt sense?

Jeremy Blanchard (00:30):
Welcome to the Wider Roots podcast.
A show about how we can use thepower of coaching and personal
transformation to help create theworld we most want to live in.
I'm your host, Jeremy Blanchard.
I'm a coach for social movement leaders.
And today's episode is with Kazu Haga.
Kazu is a Kingian non-violencetrainer based in Oakland.
Who's been involved in socialchange movements since he was 17.

(00:54):
He leads trainings for youthincarcerated populations and activists.

He's the author of Healing Resistance: or radically different response to harm. (00:59):
undefined
And he has another book coming outnext year, titled Fierce Vulnerability,
Direct Action that Heals and Transforms.
In this conversation Kazu youand I explore how to bring more
spiritually grounded practiceinto our social change movements.
I appreciated his invitation for usto think about how we can bring an

(01:22):
energy of opening things up, even ifoutwardly we're doing direct actions
that are shutting things down.
He also shares his perspective, thatmuch of the injustice we witness is
actually a manifestation of unhealedwounds, both at the individual
level and the societal level.
And I particularly loved the partof this conversation where we talked

(01:42):
about leading from heartbreak andvulnerability as a way to create
connection, especially during conflict.
I love getting ready for theseconversations with my guests, because I
get to read some of the books that havebeen on my list for a really long time.
And Kazu his book, Healing Resistanceleft me feeling consistently inspired
and just really spoke to my heart.

(02:02):
And so did this whole conversationthat you're about to hear.
So I hope you find itas nourishing as I did.
A quick invitation as you have probablyheard on every podcast you've listened to.
Uh, It makes a big difference if you leavea rating and review on Apple Podcasts.
So, if you have a minute to dothat, I'd be very grateful to
hear your thoughts on the show.

(02:23):
All right.
Let's dive in.
Hey Kazu, welcome to the show.

Kazu Haga (02:36):
Thank you so much for having me.
What's going on?

Yeah, so glad you're here.
I took the Kingian Nonviolencetraining from you back in 2017, the
two day weekend workshop, which I knowyou've led probably of at this point

Kazu Haga (02:52):
of times.
Yeah.

lot of times.
Yeah.
So we're both in Oakland activist spaces.
I know you've been reallyinvolved in Occupy, Black Lives
Matter, Gaza, and everythingthat's going on right now there.
And I just really admire and appreciatethe way that you bring what I would
describe as a spiritually groundedto social change, that I long to

(03:13):
see more of in the world that thispodcast is really dedicated to.
So just glad to have you here.
Thanks for making the time.

Kazu Haga (03:21):
I appreciate it.
I'm looking forward to this conversation.

I would love to hear some of your roots and what
got you into this particularintersection that I see you operating
in of personal transformationand systemic transformation.
Like how did those two come together?

Kazu Haga (03:41):
Yeah.
I appreciate it.
I think that the story really startsin some ways with someone I never
met who was my great-grandfather.
My great-grandfather in Japan actuallywas the founder of a women's university,
which at the time that the school startedwas this radical concept that like,
oh wait, women should be educated andthey should take part in civil society.

(04:02):
he was largely influenced bythe philosophies of Leo Tolstoy
and the German poet Goethe.
And I didn't know anything about thisuntil years and decades later into my
own life because my family actually hada fracture when I was seven years old.
And my whole family was disownedfrom that part of the family.

(04:22):
So I didn't have a connectionto that lineage at all.
And until years and years later, I foundmyself active in movements for nonviolence
that were largely influenced by Tolstoyand Goethe and all these other people.
come to find out as an adult decadesafter my kind of introduction to social
change work that my great-grandfatherwas also influenced by the same people.

(04:42):
So I feel like there was somethingin my body that was seated many,
many years before I was born.
And then I was growing up.
My mother, who was never politicalin that sense, more like new
age hippie kind of spiritual.
talking to me about, her, whatshe's learned from the Dalai Lama.

(05:02):
And she had a lot of relationships withindigenous elders on this land talking
about meditation and forgiveness.
And I always the time thoughtof it as this like embarrassing
hippie thing that my mom does.
And again full circle 30 years later,I'm doing so much of the same work that,
that I think she seeded something in me.

(05:23):
So I think there were things thathappened to me even before I was
born and things that happened to mebefore I had a so-called political
consciousness that seeded so much.
But I think a lot of my introduction tothis work came through my participation
in the interfaith pilgrimage of the MiddlePassage, which was a year long journey
initiated by a Japanese Buddhist orderthey were going to walk from Massachusetts

(05:46):
to New Orleans and then down the coastof Africa to retrace the slave route.
And so it was this thing where was aclear, political aspiration of talking
about the real legacy and impact ofenslavement in this country and talking
about how it still impacts us today,also a spiritual component of, you

(06:07):
know, this was an interfaith pilgrimageinitiated by a Japanese Buddhist order.
it was very clear to them thatit was a prayer walk, a prayer
walk that happened to happen thatneeded to happen in a public space.
Right.
we were up a conversation that I think alot of people were uncomfortable to have.
And so I think my initiation into thiswork was always at that intersection

(06:27):
of prayer and spirituality as well asrecognizing that we actually have to
step outside the monastery and havethese conversations in public spaces.
So I think that was alwaysa strong focus of mine.

Cool.
And so that planted some seedsit seems like it's from the
very inception in a lot of ways.
Like both your lineage and like thevery first times you're encountering
social justice work was already withthat focus, which I think is not common
experience, not the dominant experience.
I think at least in US activist circles,there's often you're politicized,

(06:59):
maybe in your youth with a goodanalysis, and then other folks come at
it from maybe a spiritual direction andthat they aren't politicized at all.
And you got what I think of as a veryspecial experience where both are
just like right on top of each other.
Cool.

Kazu Haga (07:13):
Feel grateful.
I mean, you're seeing that intersectionmore and more these days, I think with
the movement of Black Lives and StandingRock and all these movements that really
see the necessity of that intersection.
But certainly you know, when I cameback from spending time in monastery,
this was in the late 1990s, and gettinginvolved in movements around, issues
of globalization and freeing politicalprisoners like Leonard Peltier, Mumia

(07:35):
Abu-Jamal, closing the School ofAmericas, were not spiritual spaces.
weren't even songs in the waythat freedom movements today do.
It was very much divorced fromthis idea of spiritual practice.
So, Yeah, I'm grateful to see a lotof that beginning to shift today.

I'm curious to talk a little bit about, this longing for a more
grounded way of going about our activismthat I see in your writing and in your
work and what you've been dedicated to.
You wrote this article in 2020that I wanna share a quote from.
You wrote,
" And yet these escalated timesrequire an escalated response.

(08:13):
how do we escalate our tactics whileremaining grounded enough to double down
on healing, beauty, and reconciliation?
How do we use tactics of shuttingit down while leading with a
spirit of opening things up?
As the elders at Standing Rock remind us,how do we make direct action ceremony?"
And that quote really resonates with me.

(08:33):
I, as you're saying, I think thishas becoming more prominent in our
movement spaces, this kind of activism.
I'm curious, just hear you talk aboutlike how does that longing live in
you for us to have a new way of beingtogether while we work for change?

Kazu Haga (08:50):
Yeah.
You know, over the last 10 yearsor so, I've been grateful to be in
a lot of spaces that, has reallyfocused on trauma healing at the
individual and interpersonal level.
Both my own journey through healing myown wounds, but also holding space for
other people to move through theirs.
And as I started to understand howtrauma impacts our individual bodies,

(09:12):
started to notice more and more howtrauma impacts our collective bodies,
and it impacts us in the same exact way.
And so I've really started to seesocial injustice, whether we're talking
about climate or racial injustice oreconomic injustice as manifestations
of collective trauma, right?

(09:35):
And if we understand injustice assigns and manifestations of collective
trauma, I've also come to understandthat you can't shut down injustice any
more than you can shut down trauma.
you can't go to someone who isexperiencing a traumatic response and
point the finger and say, stop it.

(09:56):
Stop doing that.
And I think that's oftentimes howwe move in our social justice spaces
is to go to sites of injustice andgo to systems that are acting out
of a collective trauma responseand point our finger and say, stop.
You need to stop the injustice.
And so I think, tactically we're livingin such urgent times that we may need

(10:17):
to use tactics that require us toshut down a city council meeting, shut
down a highway, whatever it might be.
But how do we move with a spirit of,we are here to tactically shut this
thing down, but spiritually we'reactually here to open up conversations
and open up possibilities for healing.

(10:37):
And I don't have any answers, but thoseare the questions that I'm grappling
with of like, what does it look like toreally use nonviolent resistance as a
modality of collective trauma healing?

Those are the questions that this whole show is about.
Those are the questionsthat deeply call me as well.
I don't have the answers either, but Iwonder if you have an example of like
what are some places where you haveexperienced a shut it down and spiritually
let's open it up, coming together.

Kazu Haga (11:09):
Yeah, totally.
The first thing I wanna sayis I think it's actually good
that we don't have the answers.
I think a species, we're experiencinga transition moment, unlike any that
we have ever experienced as a species.
So of course we don't have the answers,of course, we don't know what to do in

(11:30):
this moment to create the depth and levelof transformation that is necessary.
'Cause we've never done it.
And I think part of what it meansto be alive and to be doing social
change work in this time to actuallyaccept that we don't have the answers.
to understand that the worldview andthe way of thinking that tells us that

(11:51):
if we think hard enough that we cancreate a strategy to address all of
the challenges that we're facing ispart of the problem, is part of the
worldview that got us into this mess.
Right?
And so how do we move with an appreciationand a beauty that like we are at a
time when we have to ask such largequestions that there aren't answers to.

(12:13):
And actually asking these questionsand grappling with them is enough.
It's all that we need to do.
We don't have to have the answers.
Right.
And the moments in my life where I'veactually touched on that are moments
where we've been able to like even.
When facing a role of riot policeofficers to remember and to somehow

(12:37):
communicate to them, not F you, we'rehere to overpower you, but to, lead
from a place of our own heartbreak tosay, we're not here because we hate you.
We're here because the way that weare living out our lives in this
society is breaking our hearts.

(12:58):
It is destroying our communities.
And can we actually lead with fiercenessand the vulnerability of saying,
I'm not here because I hate you.
I'm actually here because I love you.
I'm here because I love the sanctity oflife and beauty, and those things are
being destroyed all over our ecosystem.
In more of the interpersonal healingspaces I've been in, I know that.

(13:21):
Anytime someone has the courage tolead with and to model vulnerability,
possibility of transformation inthat moment increases exponentially.
And so can we create direct actionmovements and resistance movements
that have the fierceness to standface-to-face with riot police or
corporate power or whatever it mightbe, to actually lead with vulnerability

(13:43):
and say, I'm here because my heartis breaking at what is happening in
the world and what I'm witnessing.
And I think those are the momentswhere I feel like real transformation
and alchemy that we can't quiteunderstand intellectually is possible.

Amen.
You referenced in the book thedocumentary, A Force More Powerful about a
bunch of different non-violence movementsfrom South Africa to the Civil Rights
Movement in the US to India and beyond.
And hear you talking, I just feel,'cause I watched that recently, I just
feel the footage and the energy ofthose movements where you know, I don't

(14:23):
think anyone said it that way in thedocumentary, but you can feel that we
are here because our heart is breaking
power.
So if anyone listening hasn'twatched that, I highly recommend
as heart opening experience.
Yeah.
I'm curious to hear a littlebit about your entry into

(14:43):
more focus on trauma healing.
'cause I sense, and tell me if I'vegot this right, but I sense that that
has been like a evolution of yourtheory of change and your perspective.
I think it's maybe always been therein some way, but it sounds like it's
something you're focusing on more lately.
And I'm curious what you're, whatyou've witnessed or what you've learned

(15:03):
that's caused you to focus more onindividual and collective trauma healing
as the leverage point or the placewhere you wanna invest your energy.

Kazu Haga (15:12):
Yeah, definitely.
I acknowledge that a lot of my work isgrounded in the kingian lineage, right?
And learning from the lessons of Dr.
Martin Luther King andthe civil rights movement.
And, those movements, they didn'thave the science and the awareness
around trauma that we do now.
Right.
And so I think in some ways they weretrying to do that work of collective

(15:36):
healing and using language of belovedcommunity and reconciliation, but
they just didn't have the science andall of the trauma healing modalities
that are available to us now.
And one story that I share a lot is how Ihave a family member who has experienced
a lot of trauma in their lives has neverhad a space to heal from that trauma.

(15:56):
And so they're constantly in crisis.
And every once in a while we'dspend several months supporting
them through a conflict thatthey're having with their children.
And that'll get resolved.
And then a few months later, they have acrisis at work and that'll get resolved.
And it just felt like we're playingthis endless game of whack-a-mole.
And I realized that some pointthat we were playing an endless

(16:19):
game of whack-a-mole, becausethis person has a much deeper core
wounding from their childhood.
that all of these issues around theirrelationship with their children, their
relationship with their career, allthese things were just surface level
manifestations of a much deeper woundand un until we could support this person

(16:39):
in healing that deep wound, we willalways be playing a game of whack-a-mole.
And over time, I've really cometo understand that trauma works
in a fractal way, that the entireuniverse is built on fractals.
when we look at a nation state like theUnited States, there's never a shortage
of issues and a shortage of crises.

(16:59):
And it hit me that at some point we'realways gonna be playing a game of
whack-a-mole because the United States asa collective experienced early childhood
wounds that we have never healed from.
For a nation to be founded in lineagesand legacies of enslavement and genocide,
and to have never had the conversationof, wow, what did we just experience

(17:23):
together and how did it impact us,and how does it continue to impact us?
My childhood trauma impacts myrelationship with my family today.
And that's, as someone who has done alot of my own trauma healing work and
have invited my family into circles, andwe still have so much work we need to
do, as a collective, as a nation state,like our early childhood was filled with

(17:44):
violence and we've never even startedto talk about what we experienced
collectively and how to heal from that.
And so I think all of these issues thatwe're facing now are just surface level
manifestations of something much deeper.
And so I think as I've understood more andmore what it takes to heal individuals,
I'm starting to see the pathwayforward for us to heal collectively

(18:06):
as a species and as nation states.
And so I think that's a lot of thethinking that I'm trying to bring
into my work of systemic change.

it makes me think about South Africa calling
the US on charges of genocide
there's a certain amount of healing.
That we can admire that South Africadid after apartheid to be able to
say, learned some things and we'regonna actually be a force for, and a
stand for what we we know is right.

Kazu Haga (18:34):
yeah.
Like I said, a lot more to do in SouthAfrica and everywhere in the world,
but at least they've at least tried tohave that conversation, right, of like.
Hey, we just lived through apartheid.
How did people experience that?
And as a country, the UnitedStates has never even gotten
close to having that conversation.
And so we're still like holding thatin our collective bodies, right?
And hurt people, hurt people.
So we continue to perpetuate hurtout of that place of collective pain.

Maybe to just extend on that, what's, how is that
informing your theory of changeand where you're investing your
political and healing efforts now?
If trauma healing is part of the base,Kingian Nonviolence is part of the
base, that shaping your work currently?

Kazu Haga (19:11):
Yeah, so I'm trying to be in a place of constant questioning and
experimentation about, what does itlook like if we viewed nonviolent direct
action and civil resistance movements asa modality of collective trauma healing?
What have I learned from beingin small group spaces where we're

(19:31):
working around trauma and howdo we extrapolate that to scale?
And how do we do it in a public space?
I think a lot of it is, like I shared,how do we create movements that have the
fierceness to engage in public spacesand come face to face with systems
of injustice while leading with ourvulnerability leading with our heartbreak?

(19:55):
And if we're gonna lead with ourheartbreak, we're going to these escalated
tense places with our hearts wide open.
And what is the work that we needto do to prepare ourselves so
that we don't get re-traumatized?
And we don't get re-triggered.
a beautiful quote from Reverend NadiaBolz Weber who says, preach from
your scars, not from your wounds.

(20:17):
And so what is the work that we needto do internally in our movement
spaces so that we can talk about thefact that we are potentially living
through the next mass extinction?
Right?
And how is our body holding that?
What are the things that weare scared to voice out loud?
How does that affect our hearts?

(20:39):
What does it feel like in our bodiesto know that we are experiencing times
of incredible crises unlike anythingwe have ever witnessed as a species?
And to metabolize all of that so wecan go into these frontline spaces
and lead with that vulnerabilityand have some layer of protection.

(21:00):
And when we're operating from a placeof trauma response or just a place of
survival, the part of our brain that iscapable of thinking about nuance, the part
of our brain that is capable of empathy,part of our brain that is responsible for
connection, the part of our brain that isresponsible for healing and reconciliation

(21:23):
and nonviolence on a physiologicallevel, is actually not accessible to us.
Right?
so again, what do we need to do in ourmovement spaces to continue to engage
in spiritual practice so that we canbe in the most escalated spaces and
still maintain a connection to the partof our brain that is responsible for

(21:44):
healing and empathy and reconciliation.
Right?
So I think, you know, historicallyI used to go to nonviolence.
I used to lead nonviolence trainingswhere we would learn how to yelp
shame at the police and how to workwith law enforcement and how to get
arrested and how to work with themedia and how to build blockades.
Some of that is still necessary, butI think in addition to that, need to
learn how to sing together, just as apastime, but because we know that singing

(22:09):
actually creates neural pathways to thatpart of our brain that is responsible
for acknowledging the unity, right?
That is in the field.
How do we learn to breathe together?
How do we learn to holdcompassion, understanding that
ultimately, there's nothing inthis world outside of belonging.
There's nothing in this worldoutside of interdependence.

(22:30):
And that includes the people that we seeas being on the other side of any issue.
Right.
And so I think there's like alevel of spiritual practice that we
need to incorporate as part of ourpreparation to go into political fields.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.
What you're talkingabout really is training.

Kazu Haga (22:48):
Exactly.
That's right?

And that's the part of your book, in Healing
Resistance, you're talking about...
In Gandhi's Ashrams, they weretraining and training and training for
years to be able to do what they did
confront colonization in India.
And same thing with thecivil rights movement, the
lunch counter sit-ins, right?

(23:09):
They didn't just get two hours oftraining right before they went into
an action and say, oh, it's good you'regonna be able to keep yourself grounded
and regulated in the midst of violence.
So something that resonates so deeply.
Like I can, when you talk about thisrigor and depth of practice and
depth of training, there's somethingthat just lights up in me where I'm

(23:30):
like, yes, I want that.
I want to be in spaces where we havecommitments that extend beyond this
one action that we did and where we havepractices and where we have the spiritual
training to go with the logistical

Kazu Haga (23:43):
right.

activism training.
And I find myself curious like.
Where do people get that?
If someone's listening to this andthey're like, I resonate with that too.
I want to go get that training,I wanna see that in my spaces.
I'm trying to think of like, what are thethreads, the traditions, the practices to
start getting acquainted with, to buildin training, to build in spiritually

(24:05):
grounded practice into our work?

Kazu Haga (24:07):
Yeah.
I think the reality is thatthose spaces already exist.
They're just oftentimes not inrelationship with movements that are
on the ground in frontline spaces.
I think organizations like theAyni Institute has done a lot of
great work in what they call themovement ecology and mapping out.
We need a movement ecology that is asdiverse as natural ecosystems, right?

(24:30):
If we're going to heal society.
And so I think traditionally when we thinkabout social change movements, we think
of like activist quote unquote spaces.
We already have so many spaces that arepracticing deep spiritual practices,
practicing trauma healing modalities,helping people move through pain.

(24:52):
But I think oftentimes that's not seenas like frontline social change work.
And so a lot of the excitement that Ihave in a lot of the work that I'm doing
is like there are so many therapistsand healers who are becoming more
and more engaged in social change,like frontline social justice spaces.
And so I think they're bringing a lotof those skills into movement spaces.

(25:13):
I really would love to see spiritualcommunities mobilize more because they
already have so much of that grounding.
And the, like the decades of practicethat, the people that lived in the
Ghanaian shrams had, like a lot of thespiritual communities, they've been
practicing those skills for decades.
They just need to practiceit on the front lines.
Right?

(25:33):
And so I think a lot of it isn't aboutlooking for tools that don't exist or
having to come up with new practices.
I think it's about building relationshipswith the right communities and building
a healthy ecosystem so we can understandthat, oh, okay, if we're gonna be
doing front lines work, we might needsupport from healing communities and
be in relationship with spiritualcommunities and just like find and
building those bridges, you know?

Yeah.
I love that as a pathway in is activism ishere, the spiritual spaces are there and
relationships is part of the invitation.
I'm curious on this thread oftraining, you mentioned earlier that
if we go into spaces without enoughskill, it can be re-traumatizing,
You use this analogy of like, youwanna go to a skilled doctor who's

(26:19):
can do surgery and can open a woundin the proper way and help seal it in
the proper way so that it will heal.
I'm holding that tension in myself ofand just going for it and needing to just
everyone to be trying these things out.
I'm curious how you hold that whenyou're thinking about repair, when you're
thinking about trauma healing, whenyou're thinking about reconciliation.

Kazu Haga (26:42):
Yeah, I think it's definitely the both-and, right?
is no way for healing to not be messy.
And I know I sometimes have this thingin my own life where like I'm, I always
try to wait for every circumstanceto be perfect before engaging in a
conflict or engaging in training.
And of course, there's never a perfecttime to engage in healing work, right?

(27:04):
It's always gonna be messy.
And so I think a lot of that work isletting go of that part of ourselves
that is waiting for the perfect moment,that is waiting for all the skills.
'Cause we don't knowwhat's gonna be necessary.
And I think there has to be a lotof spaces and appreciation for
that rigor and acknowledging thathealing does require a lot of skill.

(27:28):
It does not require schooling.
I have almost no formalschooling to speak of.
And so I think there's a lot ofrecognition that we need to give to
community healers and community mentalhealth models and things like that.
And it actually doesn't requirea lot, or like years and years of
going to university for people tolearn how to just be with each other.

(27:51):
I think so much of this work is we staygrounded enough to just be with people?
And that's something that takes someamount of practice, but it doesn't
require a lot of training, right?
It just requires like constantreinforcement because it's
easy for us to get activated.
But I think, yeah, as long as we'reholding the intention of healing, I

(28:12):
think we can't be afraid to just tryit and mess up and even potentially
cause harm as long as the commitmentto healing that harm is there.
I think that the commitment to healingthe harm is more important than trying to
do everything we can to not cause harm.

Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a couple things in there whereyou're inviting this, like more expansive
than white supremacy culture view, right?
White supremacy culture says, okay,there's a certain definition of
expert and it looks like, years inuniversity, and now you're allowed
to dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
Right?
And inviting us beyondperfectionism, right?

(28:47):
okay, you're gonna cause harm like that.
The, even just hearing you saythose words, I'm like, okay,
let's pause for a second.
I think for many folks that can landas a very radical idea, like, wait,
you're telling me I don't have toavoid causing harm at all costs, even
if it means I never like, take actionand just wait, and wait and wait.

Kazu Haga (29:05):
Yeah.
One quick thing is thewhite supremacist culture.
I have a little pet peeve on thatbecause I actually experience a
lot of the characteristics of whitesupremacist culture to be patterns of
domination culture, and not necessarilyjust of white supremacist culture.
I found a lot of these characteristicsshow up in me, not as a white person, but
as someone who's been socialized as male.

(29:25):
It also shows up in me as someonewho is of Japanese ancestry, right?
And my people dominated andcolonized, large swaths of Asia.
And so I always wanna bring a littlebit more nuance into these conversation.
It's not about any one identity, but it'sabout the dynamic of domination that does
something to us, that puts us in theseboxes and needs us to create more boxes.

(29:49):
But yeah, I think that's true that, oneof the things that we really need to
get over is this need to be perfect.
And the first noble truth in, in,according to the Buddhist teachings
is the truth of duka, which is thetruth of, unsatisfactoriness the
truth that things will never bealways the way we want them to be.

(30:10):
And that seems like such asimple thing to understand.
Like, of course things will never beexactly the way we want them to be.
But it actually took me about 20years of practice to really, for the
first time the depth of that teachingto hit me and it broke my heart.
the moment I realized it was whenI was facilitating a nonviolence

(30:32):
workshop and I was unskillfulin a moment and it caused harm.
And as someone who tries to practicethe principles of nonviolence and
not causing harm, it hit me that aslong as I'm engaged in this work,
there is nothing that I can do toguarantee that I won't cause harm.

(30:52):
fact, as long as I'm in thiswork, it is guaranteed that at
some point I will cause harm.
And for me to accept that as someonewho's trying to practice nonviolence
to accept the reality that I willalways cause harm was heartbreaking.
And it took me 20 years ofreading the noble truth to be
like, oh, that's what this means.

Yeah.
I feel like it's a message thatresonates deeply with me, and I think
it's something that so many of us needto hear in this era of cancel culture.
I have so many coaching conversationswith clients where the conversation is,
okay, so I want to do a thing, but Idon't want to cause harm, so can we talk

(31:33):
about how I do this so I don't cause harm?
Or like, maybe I'm just notgonna do it at all because I
don't wanna risk causing harm.
Which just a in general, theintention is beautiful, right?
It's like, okay, of course youdon't want, none of us want to cause
harm, but it becomes such a realstrong, like, I can't let this occur.
Yeah, I just see that so much how thatcauses so many inspiring ideas and

(31:57):
possibilities that could come forward,get squashed under the weight of,
I'm worried I'm going to cause harm.
I'm worried I'm gonna get canceled.
I know that's something that's partof your thinking and work is like, how
do we move beyond this cancel culture?
So I'm curious, how are youholding that these days?
How are thinking that?

Kazu Haga (32:18):
So much say.
One thing that my partner recentlysaid that I really appreciate is
they said, creating safety and safecontainers is not about creating a space
where people won't experience harm.
It's actually about creating spaceswhere people feel safe enough to
be re harmed because healing hurts.

(32:43):
There is no way that I can talk aboutmy childhood trauma or that we can
collectively talk about the legacies ofenslavement and genocide or colonization
or whatever, and have that not be a reallyhurtful discussion because that was, those
were really hurtful experiences, right?

Yeah.

Kazu Haga (33:00):
And to create containers where we can feel safe enough to have
conversations that we know are gonna hurt.
That's actually what real safety means.
when I'm in spaces with incarceratedpeople and we can create a container
that they feel safe enough to talk aboutthe most shameful moment of their lives,

(33:22):
the scariest moment of their lives,the moments that they have not talked
about for 30, 40 years, and know andtrust that on the other side of that
conversation is even deeper belonging.
That is a transformational moment, right?
And so I think there's dangers inthis idea of we need to create spaces

(33:45):
where people aren't gonna be harmed.
I think it's actually aboutbuilding up our capacity so we
can have more conversations thatwe know are gonna hurt, right?
And how do we hold that in a waythat actually leads us to healing?
And I'll also share, and we can goin so many directions with this,
but you mentioned cancel culture.
I was part of a small group of peoplethat organized a gathering of movement

(34:05):
leaders back in May in upstate New Yorkcalled, Because We Need Each Other.
it was, as far as I know, the firstattempt to bring movement leaders
from around the country workingon a variety of issues to talk
specifically about this dynamic.
And a lot of wisdom flewoutta that gathering.

(34:25):
And one of the things, shout out toPrentice Hemphill was there says, we
need to break up with the term cancelculture because it is a nice like
catchall where we immediately havesome sense of what we're talking about.
But I think it's very limitingbecause what I want to talk about
are dynamics that have to do with theway we hold conflict in our movement

(34:49):
spaces that go beyond what ourunderstanding of what cancel culture is.
It's not always just about cancelculture, there's other dynamics.
to acknowledge that a lot of the nationalconversation, the public discourse
around the term cancel culture isactually being framed by the right or
by people who aren't in movement spaces.
so, we've started at least in thatgathering, I don't know if it'll

(35:11):
stick, but we've started talkingabout "fractures to belonging."
I.
there are so many things happeningwithin movement spaces, within
all over, not just movement spacesthat create fractures to belonging.
And what is that about?
Why is it that so many times in movementand progressive spaces, these spaces
where we are trying to create belongingfor all people, for all life, are so

(35:37):
quick to throw people out of belonging.
I know one of the things that we'retalking about in, in, in my work a lot is,
I think one of the biggest contributionswe can do is to create movement
spaces where people would never evenquestion their sense of belonging.
Because I know that if I am deeplygrounded in my universal belonging,

(35:59):
then I feel less of a need to, tothreaten another person's belonging.
Right.
And so I think so much of the work thatwe need to do starts within our own
movement spaces of like, how do we createthat culture where even if I do or say
the worst possible thing, I know that Istill belong because there's, it's the way
that the universe is structured, right?

(36:21):
There's nothing outside of belonging.
And so how do we givepeople that felt sense?

Mm.
Thank you.
I know you're saying thewords I need to hear.
To hear you say how can we createspaces of such, deep belonging that
we can not have to question it, isjust it so opens my heart in this
way that I don't know what the answerto that question is, as has been
our theme, this whole conversation.

(36:56):
But what a generative and meaningfulquestion to, for us all to sit with live
into and explore and experiment with.
Like, ugh.

Kazu Haga (37:05):
Yeah.
And I think, for me so much of it is justlearning from natural ecosystems and a
hummingbird never questions its senseof belonging in the ecosystem, right?
And even when a lion is eatinga gazelle, it never says to
the gazelle, you don't belong.
Right there, there's some felt sensethat we are all part of this ecosystem

(37:26):
and there's nothing outside of that.
I'm blessed to be working with anorganization right now called Building
Belonging that is really trying to,use this frame of universal belonging
as like the central theory of change.
I'm grateful to be working withBuilding Belonging and exploring.
if we're really gonna take belongingthat word seriously, what are the

(37:46):
implications of that in terms of howwe go about doing systems change work?

Yeah.
The energy of what you're talkingabout makes me think about something
else you write in your book.
Another quote I'll share is, you say,
"When people talk about holdingsomeone accountable, the keyword
should not be accountable, but holding.
What does it mean to hold someone?
Does that person feel held or dothey feel attacked and judged?"

(38:13):
And there's something so connective aboutjust emphasizing the word held there.

Kazu Haga (38:22):
Yeah, and I think a lot of the, whether we wanna call it cancel culture
or fractures to belonging, a lot of thosedynamics, I really honor the intention.
'cause I think a lot of the intentionis we're trying to figure out what
accountability looks like outside ofthe system, outside of the state, right.
And so communities are exploringhow to do accountability without
relying on outside external systems.

(38:43):
I think it's beautiful
and I think sometimes underestimatehow deeply entrenched we are
in these dominant worldviews.
And
all of us grew up knowing nothing but acarceral response to harm and to conflict.

That's right

Kazu Haga (39:00):
so even though we're committed to not calling the state, our bodies
don't know how to do things differently.
And I think I am so grateful for all ofthe wisdom that I've learned from the
incarcerated people that I've workedwith who have shown me and modeled
in front of me accountability at adepth that I have never seen before.

(39:23):
Like I did not know what theword accountability meant until
I witnessed a dialogue betweena mother and the incarcerated
person who took her son's life.
And to healing happen between those two.
I've worked with a lot of survivorsof violence and the most common
question they have is, why?
Right?

Hmm.

Kazu Haga (39:43):
Why did you do this?
And I feel like sometimes thatquestion of why did you do this
is actually not a real question.
It's actually anaccusation of like, why are
you such a terrible person?
But when mother of someone wholost her child to violence can
actually sit down and ask thereal why, in the sense of like.

(40:06):
was going on in your life in that moment?
Like what were your pain pointsthat led you to that moment?
Right?
And to hold that kind of space forsomeone to, to, for that person to
really able to have enough spaciousnessto explore, like what did happen to me
led up to the, to that moment in time,I think is a gift to that person, right?

(40:29):
For that person to really be ableto hold themselves to account
and explain what happened.
Oh, I did this not because I wasa terrible person, but because
of my own unprocessed trauma.
And I think giving space for thatconversation to happen is a gift
that we are giving because we knowthat is part of the process of healing
for the person who caused harm.

Yeah.
It also makes me think about.
I think about it as and I'mcurious your take on this.
I think of it as like in movement spacesin particular, I've been in so many
rooms, especially rooms with like mixedidentities and privileges, where there's
an intersection of politicized folksand folks who are doing some healing
or transformation and something happensin the room where there's a rupture.

(41:10):
And my observation is that over the last.
10, 20 years, there's been thisincreasing, skillset around
naming harms in public spaces.
especially in these like personalinternal work focus spaces, there's
like more capacity to name thingsthat in the past, especially if it
were like mixed race or like a whitedominant space, it might be everything's

(41:33):
just gonna be kept under the rug.
We don't talk about this.
It's not polite.
Right?
Before it used to be more likeit wouldn't get talked about
across lines of identity, maybe.
Now we're at this stage where it getstalked about, it gets named, and then what
I've seen happen, and I'm sure you've seenhappen, this happen in lots of spaces.
All right, it got named!
Great!
Suddenly we encounter our lackof skill in coming back together.

(41:57):
So we have the skill to now namesomething that really desperately needs
to be named, we don't yet have theskill To, and it's a much higher order
skill, in my opinion, to do the repairand coming back and reconciliation
work and come back together.
I'm curious if that resonates or ifyou'd like your perspective as different
or something you'd add to that.

Kazu Haga (42:16):
No, unfortunately it resonates more than you know, you know,
um, first, I want to shout out myfriend, Sonya Shah, who coined the term
fractures to belonging and is someonewho has taught me so much about how
to do this relational healing work.
And the
depth of healing that we arecapable of, as a species.
I think it's a beautiful thing, right?

(42:39):
That we've gone from notnaming things at all.
I was at a conference once when someonenamed it as the tyranny of civility.
it's not civil,
it's not polite bring up these tensions.
I think it's great thatwe're one step above that.
it's great that we are seeing that,oh, we actually don't have the skills
necessary to actually heal all ofthese conversations all the time.

(43:02):
I think we do need to get a little bitbetter at discernment about when is a
skillful place to bring up what conflicts.
I think this is also why Ilove the martial arts analogy.
I was like, when if you're practicing,karate kung fu or whatever, you
don't get better at these skills byconstantly getting into street fights,

(43:25):
get better at them by practicingthese skills over and over and over
in the safe container of a dojo.
I think we really need to more credenceto that when it comes to conflict.
That we can't wait until we get into aconflict to practice all these frameworks
that we learn in the three hour workshop.

(43:46):
Right.
I'm blessed to live in a communityin Oakland where there's 35 of us
across every kind of spectrum ofdiversity you can possibly imagine.
And so there's always conflict goingon, but it's not just that there's
always conflict, it's that we areactually getting together every week
to practice conflict, to practiceconflict engagement, so that when

(44:08):
we get into actual conflict, we'vealready been working out those muscles.
Right.
And so I think that's another place thatI'd love to see movements engage more
in is the practice of healthy conflictengagement before those conflicts
emerge so that we're building upthose muscles before things blow up.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I'd be curious to hear a little snippet ofwhen you were doing that weekly practice.
What does weekly practice runconflict engagement look like for

Kazu Haga (44:36):
Yeah.
So I guess I should give a shout out to, Ilive in a community called Canticle Farm.
Which is what, like 12 or 14 homes.
And it includes a transitionalhome for formerly incarcerated men
and a home that houses a sanctuaryprogram and people who live across,
a pretty wide spectrum of wealth andclass and all sorts of differences.

Yeah.
If folks listening, wanna look up,an example of part of the world we're
trying to build, Canticle Farm hasgot a lot of experiments going in

Kazu Haga (45:02):
a a and I'll say
the world that we want to buildapparently is really messy.
'cause it
a beautiful mess to live at Canticle.
I mean, I'm this probably one of thegreatest honors of my entire life, is
being able to live in this community.
And it's a lot of work, you know?

Yeah.

Kazu Haga (45:15):
And we get together every Monday and sometimes it's as
simple as talking around a talkingpiece and doing deep check-ins.
I've noticed the questionof how are you doing?
It's a rhetorical question.
Most of the times you're supposedto respond by saying, oh, I'm great.
How are you?
But actually slowing down enoughto say, how are you actually doing?

(45:38):
We also practice givingeach other feedback.
We practice receiving feedback.
We practice concrete skills thatcome in the form of like nonviolent
communication, restorative circles.
We've done workshops internally within thecommunity on, a practice called Internal
Family Systems, which is really cool.
And so we're constantly trying to utilizeor , skill up in these frameworks.

(46:03):
And one other thing I'll name aboutCanal is we have a restorative justice
room in our community at the middleof our community that is dedicated
only for conflict restorative conflict
You're not allowed to walk inthat room unless you're working
on conflict with somebody.
and the room has a big, huge window.
that when people are in thereengaged in conflict, people

(46:25):
from the outside can see it.
To normalize the fact that conflictis just part of our community
life and not to romanticize,again, living in this community,
'cause it's a hot mess at times.
And we're trying to normalize conflict.
We're trying to practiceconflict every week.
And so it's a beautiful,it's a beautiful process.

Hmm.
you.
I love that.
I am curious on this thread of.
We're skillful at naming harms, andwe can get into when we're naming
harms, because we all grew upin, at least in this country, in
this culture of a punitive system.
We just know punishment as our primaryway of addressing conflict and harm.

(47:06):
One of the things that I see happen isthat we get into this all or nothing.

You wrote in the book (47:10):
"The black white analysis of perpetrator and victim belies
the complexities harm and violence,"
That there's like a lot of complexityin here, and I think that word
complexity has a lot of power.
it's what gets erased whenour trauma responses come up
right.
We're not capable of seeing beyond wrong.

(47:31):
You're against me.
I need to protect myself.
And there's a lot of, evolutionary reasons
have that response.
Yeah.
Curious to hear you talka little bit about that.

Kazu Haga (47:41):
Yeah.
We live in such a complex world.
Part of what's supported me in thisis in Mahayana Buddhism, there's
a distinction made between what's.
Sometimes called, a mundane realityor conventional reality with what's
sometimes called ultimate reality.
And our great teacher, Thich Nhat Hanh,used to say that even though we call them

(48:02):
things like mundane and ultimate, onetruth isn't more true than the other.
We're constantly swimmingin these two realities.
And the conventional reality,the mundane reality, is the
reality that's much more linear.
And it's the things that wecan see and touch and hear.
And there's an ultimate realitywhere things are much more complex.
And so I think when harm happens, thereis oftentimes not always, oftentimes

(48:27):
in the conventional realm, there'sa clear person who caused the harm
and person who experienced the harm.
And again, I've had the privilege tohear deep stories from people who have
experienced and perpetuated great harms.
And I've heard their backstories diggingback their entire lives and even longer.

(48:50):
And once you slow down enough to hearthe full story, you realize things are
not as simple as this person causedharm and this person received it.
Even with oppression, this is maybea controversial thing, but Yeah.
Like in on one reality, in one reality,there is the oppressor, there is the
privilege, and then there's the oppressed.

(49:10):
And there's also a reality that I want tocontinue to live into that says there's
no such thing as perpetrator of harm,receiver of harm, oppressor, oppressed.
There's oppression.
And everyone is being impactedby that dynamic of oppression.
There's only harm andeveryone is impacted by it.

(49:30):
every time someone commits harm, it's mostlikely because there is some unprocessed
harm that they are holding that theyneed to lash out and harm somebody else.
And so I think, the more Grounded wecan be, the more we've done our own
trauma healing work, so that we'reless likely to have our own traumas
get triggered, the more we can sit inthe complexity of the world in which

(49:54):
there sometimes things seem black andwhite, and at the same time there's a
much more complex reality happening.
And to practice holding both ofthose realities at the same time
requires a lot of work and hencethe practice that is necessary.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
I would love to hear a little bit aboutthe principle from Jainism that you've
of that inspired me when Iheard that it helps, it's
something I come back to a lot.

Kazu Haga (50:17):
Yeah.
I love that.
When I first learned it.
Jainism for folks that don't know,is an ancient religion from present
day India that predated Buddhism.
So a lot of the ideas in Buddhismaround non harm is really rooted in
Jain traditions, probably the mostnonviolent religion out there that exists.
they have this principle calledanekāntavāda that, as far as I
understand is oftentimes translated asnot-one-sidedness or many sidedness.

(50:43):
And within this concept they have at leastseven different understandings of truth.
And I don't know if I can rememberall of them, but it's something along

the lines of (50:51):
in some ways it is.
In some ways it is not.
In some ways it is and it is not.
In some ways it is, and it isindiscernible in some ways it is not
and it is indiscernible in some ways.
It is not, and it is indiscernible.
and all seven of those truthsare happening at the same time.
Right.
And so I do think because we livein such a polarized society, such a

(51:15):
black and white binary worldview, wesometimes think that someone has to
be wrong and someone has to be right.
And that truth and right andwrong are, like zero sum games.
But I think there's a deeper realityin which there are so many truths
happening at the same time thatare all a hundred percent true.

(51:36):
Like truth doesn't have to all add upmathematically to a hundred percent.
Truth can be 900% true, right?
There can be so many perspectivesthat are contradictory and each both a
hundred percent true at the same time.
And so I think, yeah, the more groundedwe are, the more regulated we are, the
more we can accept the complex realitiesthat our intellect alone can always grasp.

Yeah, I feel like that's one of my hopes, my prayers for us in
our movement work, in our healing work.
I think that's one of the things thathealing opens up is the capacity to, oh, I
can actually access this with some nuance.
I can see that there can actually bemultiple truths here I can get out

(52:22):
of I need to make you wrong so thatI am right so that we can, that is
the way that this conversation orthis interaction needs to conclude.
So I find a lot of inspiration sinceI first heard you talk about that.
I was like, oh, right.
Like I'll be in conversations with peopleand catch myself getting into like, no,
but I'm right about the, I'd be like,

(52:42):
right, well, I'm also wrong.
And it's also indiscernible and

Kazu Haga (52:47):
you know?
that's right.

realities at once.
Yeah.

Kazu Haga (52:50):
Yeah.
And times when I've experienced harm,like if I can heal from that own,
that my own sense of hurt, oftentimesways in which I also contributed
to the harm, to the conflict.
It might hurt someone else,and it's like it's all true.

Yeah.
That's right.
Yeah.
As we draw to a close here, I'm curious,is there anything else you wanna leave our
listeners with that we maybe didn't get toor that feels important to, to offer here?

Kazu Haga (53:15):
Yeah.
You know, Movement Generationhas a saying that says, change
is inevitable, justice is not.
And I really do believe that we'rein this moment where over the next,
however long, 10, 20, 50 years, we'regonna be going through a level of
change that is, it's like nothing is upto us as human, human beings anymore.

(53:36):
Right.
The earth is going through some changes,largely because of decisions that
we, as human beings made, but at thispoint, so much is out of our hands.
And I think oftentimes the best thingwe can do is even with all of the
war and destruction and ecologicalcollapse and climate crisis.
To remind ourselves that even in themidst of that, creating beauty is

(54:00):
possible, that affirming life is possible.
And, I used to have these grandvisions of being part of these massive
movements that like transforms andsaves the world, but these days I'm
just appreciating the beauty of knowingthat it's enough to continue to walk
towards beauty and towards life.

(54:20):
And maybe at this point,that's all we can do.
And to like, to accept the beauty of that.
And the challenge of continuingto walk towards beauty in a time
when there's so much destruction.
It's really difficult practice to do.
But really inviting people to honor andappreciate the little things that we can
do to continue to show people that evenin a world as violent as today, it's

(54:41):
possible to affirm life and to continueto build relationships and community,
and yeah, just to, to keep that in mind.

Amen.
it be so.
Oh, well, I'm feeling so nourishedthis conversation that we've had.
As we move towards wrapping up here,one of the questions I like to ask
all my guests, is about where yourroots and your nourishment comes from.
The title of the podcastbeing Wider Roots.

(55:08):
Maybe it's things you can recommendto our guests, like books or, maybe
it's practices that you're doingor maybe it's, just places you
go, but where are you getting yournourishment to do the work that you do?

Kazu Haga (55:21):
Yeah.
So many things.
One is I'm currently in a book clubof a book called Hospicing Modernity,
and I actually have some amount ofmourning because, as I mentioned, I
don't have a lot of formal education andthe book is like, it's a little dense.
It's a little hard to read, whichis why I joined a book club 'cause
I need some support around that.

(55:41):
it is one of the few books that, tome, is talking about transformation
at the depth that I need tobe having this conversation.
Like I have zero interest in waging yearlong battles for a piece of legislation.
think we are experiencing a moment inhumanity where whether we like it or not,
whether we're ready or not, we're gonnabe witness a transformation at a scale

(56:04):
that we have never experienced before.
And I think Hospicing Modernityis one of the few books that's
talking about at that scale.
So folks aren't familiar with that.
Definitely recommend that.
And I also don't practice this asmuch as I should, but I get the
deepest inspiration from the momentsin my life where I can slow down.

(56:28):
I used to have a practice whereonce a week would turn off all
electricity and spend an entireevening just under candlelight.
So it's not like I don't watch tv.
I don't have tv.
I don't watch anything on Netflix.
It's that I don't evenuse electrical lights.
And there's something about the waythat practice slows me down, that I

(56:51):
feel like I'm reconnecting with anancestral way of being on this planet.
And when I'm able to slow down enoughto sit outside and notice a hummingbird,
suckling from a flower right in frontof me and just these like small moments
of like, oh, this is how my ancestorshave lived for hundreds of thousands of

(57:13):
years before email, before social media.
so I think that's one of the mostimportant things that we can learn to
do in this in unsustainable pace thatcapitalism demands of us today to take
moments to breathe and to slow down.
And even for one moment to step outsideof modernity and remember who we are.

Yeah, I love that.
So we'll link to that in the shownotes, the book recommendation.
And, I'm curious if folks wanna stayconnected with you, how can they do that?

Kazu Haga (57:45):
Yeah.
So I have a website, it's KazuHaga.com.
K-A-Z-U-H-A-G-A.
I have so many thoughts on social media,but as of right now, I sometimes use
Facebook and it's just at Kazu Haga.
Yeah, we'll see where I go withsocial media ultimately, but right
now, I'm on Facebook and stillevery once in a while use it.

That's cool.
And you've got a newsletter on yourwebsite that folks can sign up for.

Kazu Haga (58:08):
Yeah, definitely.

Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for the work you're doingin the world for the, decades of
practice that you have put in tobe able to see things the way you
do and embody them the way you do.
Very

Kazu Haga (58:21):
Yeah.
Likewise.
Thanks so much for, havingthis conversation with me.
It's a lot of, it's always a, ajoy and I get to learn a lot from
having these conversations too.
So really grateful for you.

Thank you so much for listening and a big thanks to
Kazu for sharing his wisdom with us.
I want to try something new today.
As I've said, this podcast ispartially a research project.
And so today I want to share my toptakeaways from this conversation with
Kazu as a way to help me integrate whatI got from this, and hopefully help

(58:57):
you have a chance to reflect as well.
First, I was really impactedby causes invitation to lead
from a place of heartbreak andvulnerability in our activism.
The idea of communicating tothose who we see as opposition.
As he said.
I'm here because I love thesanctity of life and beauty.

(59:17):
And those things are being destroyed.
That idea just feels really potent to me.
Second.
Causes whole perspective on collectivetrauma and viewing social injustice
as manifestations of unhealed wounds.
Resonates deeply with me.
I can feel the way that thatperspective ties together, personal
and systemic transformation in reallyrich and thought provoking ways.

(59:42):
And finally I'm sitting withKazu is reminder that there's no
way for healing to not be messy.
I know, I really needed to hearthat invitation, to focus more on
our commitment to healing the harm.
Rather than trying to do everythingwe can not to cause harm.
As someone who personally can getreally paralyzed by perfectionism.
It feels like a veryfreeing and liberating idea.

(01:00:04):
If you find this takeaway section at theend of episodes, helpful, please shoot me
an email at podcast@widerroots.com and Iwill try to include it in future episodes.
Check out the show notes for linksto the resources Kazu mentioned
and other ways to connect with him.
Episode six comes out in two weekswith climate coach, Charlie Cox.

Charly Cox (01:00:25):
My start point is less agitating for change and more
empowering people to believe thatthey can be actors in their own lives.
We fundamentally believe that everyonehas a stake in climate change, that
everyone can affect change around it.

Jeremy Blanchard (01:00:41):
So as always make sure you subscribe in your podcast
app of choice so that you can catchthat episode and all the future ones.
And please head over to widerroots.com to subscribe to the free
newsletter where I'm sharing resourcesthat go beyond what fit into the
episodes and fit into the show notes.

(01:01:01):
I would love to invite you intothat growing community of folks.
And you can also find the podcastover on Instagram at wider roots pod.
And a shout out to Tim and Lindley andMeg who all helped review this episode.
Thanks as always to Wild choir forthe theme music for the show, you're
currently listening to their song,remember Me, which will play us out.

(01:01:24):
See you next time.

(01:02:18):
So you're having a kiddo in May.

Kazu Haga (01:02:20):
Yes, yes.
Yeah.

Jeremy Blanchard (01:02:22):
That's exciting.
Oh, congrats.
Wow.

Kazu Haga (01:02:25):
you.
So yeah
we'll see we'll see where the, thecommunity is at a year from now.
'cause it'll be a very differentcommunity and what kind of work,
um, we're called to as a communitythat has so many kids, you know?

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