Hire for Where You Are, Not Where You Wish

RSVP Today for Heliona Live: ⁠Workplace Unfiltered: A Heliona Experience

In this candid conversation, entrepreneur and operator Chris Jones breaks down the real work of scaling: set a clear vision, communicate it relentlessly, and build capacity at every step.

We dig into the “stair‑step” model of growth, hiring and letting go in fast-moving seasons, and why retention depends less on perks and more on three disciplines: clarity, communication, and capacity.

Chris also talks openly about burnout and boundaries—how to lead when life expands, and how to design systems that support your most human moments, not just your star performers.

If you’re growing a team, leading through change, or trying to keep momentum without losing people, this one’s a blueprint.

Connect with Chris Jones:

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Most of entrepreneurs are visionaries, right?
They see a vision, have to fulfill that vision, and you
have to get the personnels in place to help you get to each
step of your vision. But as a visionary, sometimes a
lonely, lonely Rd. because you see certain way, certain things
that you have to do to get to your vision and you recognize
that certain personnel and skillsets that you need on each step
of the way. That goes back to that, that

(00:20):
stair step approach that we're talking about.
So you have to look at it two ways.
And the one way I really talked to our team a lot about is that
there's people that help you climb the mountain and there's
people that help you stay there.Those are two different skill
sets you have to have. And just think of that that
stirs up as a ledge. Once you get over that ledge,
that flat ground, there are people that may have to help
till that ground and make sure it's sustainable.

(00:41):
And you have to find the next group to help you grow it.
If you think of Amazon, Microsoft, and all these
different things that grow, there's certain people that came
with them that stay with them, but there's also a certain set
of skill set needs to stay on that first phase.
But if you can section out kind of where your approach is and if
you can stair step it, it's easier to identify.
I need you on this level. I have to go to the next level
and these are skill sets I need for that too.

(01:02):
And it's not always easy becausemost people can't see that.
What does it take to lead when the vision is big, the pace is
fast, and the team is looking toyou for clarity.
Today on Heliona Insight, I'm joined by Chris Jones, a founder

(01:24):
and operator who's learned to scale by doing the hardest parts
of leadership well, getting clear on the vision,
communicating what matters, and building the capacity around him
to make it real. We talked about the lonely side
of leadership, the stair step approach to growth, hiring for

(01:46):
the phase you were in, not the phase you wish you were in, and
why you can't build systems onlyfor your highest performance.
Chris gets honest about burnout,boundaries, and leading with
family in the picture. How to move fast without
breaking the people you are asking to carry the load.

(02:07):
If you've ever been the one holding it all together, this
conversation will feel uncomfortably familiar and
incredibly useful. So let's get into it.
Hello, hello. I apologize for interrupting
your listening experience, but this is worth it.

(02:29):
Stay with me on October 15, we are bringing Workplace
Unfiltered Heliona Experience. That is the Heliona Life podcast
of top five guests. The most listened guests will be
in a roundtable discussion on October 15 at the Abbott in
downtown Kansas City. That's the Abbott Abbott, which

(02:49):
is the venue here in Kansas City.
For the listeners outside of KC,shout out to Chicago, Iowa,
Illinois. Thank you guys for always tuning
in, but I want you to picture this one night with leaders from
across the country, HR professionals, mental health
providers, and you, the listener, all in the same room

(03:09):
for unfiltered conversation about performance and mental
health. It's life, it's going to be
honest and yes, you can be part of it.
So make sure to RSVP today at heliona dot IO.
That's HELI ona dot IO or you can visit the show notes right
now and make sure to RSVP on theevent page.

(03:32):
We only have a block for 50 people exclusive to my listeners
and LinkedIn followers. We'd love for you guys to be to
show up October 15th and I'd love to meet everyone.
That'll be food, developer drinks, coffee.
Amazing time. Doors open at 4:30 PM Central
time. So again, visit heliona dot IO

(03:52):
to learn more or visit the show notes and cheers.
All right, Chris, thank you so much for being on the Heliona
Inside podcast. You know, I've actually had you
on my forum healthcare podcast, but I feel like your story needs
more justice, you know, on the professional side to also dive
into it. So one of the things that I want
to start with, you know, especially our conversation

(04:14):
forum, you like, you know, just the resilient aspect of who you
are and how you go about building your business.
And I want to go into that, especially on the resilient side
of it. I'm familiar with your story,
but I feel like a lot of people are not, but like on a
professional level, how does it feel as a founder?
You know, you've, you've accomplished so many things in

(04:37):
your career, but yet you have such a phenomenal story.
And I know you, you know, you'veshared with me how you go by
balancing those two areas. Like how do you go about as a
founder, running a very successful healthcare company
and then working with all these incredible human beings that
are, you know, they, they all know what they're doing and you

(04:58):
were able to bring all them together.
But then how do you balance thataspect and also your own
personal story? Yeah, I think it's it's
difficult for sure because everybody brings their own
expertise, their niche. One thing I talk about a lot is
about, you know, understanding where your gaps are, the things
that you're may not be, you may not be good at.
So most of the people on my teamknow I'm very vocal about where

(05:20):
my gaps are. It doesn't mean that I can't
articulate through them and makemy way through those, but it's
hard to be proficient at everything, right?
So you focus on what you're goodat.
And a lot of times when I'm looking for resource or support
or bringing in team members, they're, they're there to fill
in the gaps that I may have, right, to help things move more
proficiently for it. So filling the gaps is what I
focus on 1st, right? Find somebody that can fill in

(05:42):
that gap because you have somebody that does the same
thing as good as you are, you'rekind of contradicting yourself
there, right? So the first part is to make
sure you find the right sources for the right, right, right
resources for the right gaps. And that starts a conversation.
Then there's a characteristic mean into where your brand or
where your mindset is going. Because even though I have the
the full force of my why behind me, it may not be good for the

(06:03):
business side of it too. That your why may be too strong
to offset the opportunity to make money.
So you got to have them not contradicting views but opposite
just thought process on how to approach in the same direction.
Because it just makes you more powerful team.
But gaps are so important. Understand your gaps and where
they are and see you can get to fill those gaps for you.
Because you can't fill your own gaps at times, it just takes too

(06:23):
long. Right.
So, so like when it comes to identifying those gaps, like how
can you define that process of doing that, especially as ACEO
of healthcare company that has avery specific, you know, goal as
far as like when it comes to healthcare, you guys are, you
know, working in the record space.
You, you build a phenomenal solution that makes it easier

(06:45):
for anyone to go and have their entire lineage record in one
application to make sure that when you find yourself in like a
healthcare emergency, you can easily access that and which
ties to your own personal story.But when it comes to those gaps,
like, how do you go about explaining that as a founder and

(07:05):
making sure that your own personal story doesn't take away
from that because you have a very phenomenal, strong personal
story. Yeah.
So I think the foundation is important.
So for each company they have tounderstand what their foundation
is. So for us our foundation was is
make sure you can pull in a unified health record into one
port or one connectivity. And that was our foundational

(07:27):
process. Our point that we focus on 1st
right and that drives technologyhas to drive that piece and
technology will limit sometimes what you want to do in business
and what business may be able toaccept.
So and what companies are are your clients may be able to tie
into the technology can limit that.
So what I focus on is how good can we make a technology and how

(07:47):
good can we make the foundation of the technology to start the
conversation. So yeah, I've talked a lot about
potential clients and partners about how that we want to do one
thing well, right. We want to make sure that we can
unify the health record and knowthat when that health record is
there is a source of truth and what happens on top of that AI
and all these great, you know, data plays that comes with that.
It's all formula is phenomenal to do those things, but the

(08:09):
first thing we want to do, the first thing well is make sure we
aggregate data as a source of truth on behalf of the patient.
And that takes a mission within itself, right?
There's certain things that happen within those spaces.
I understand that. We want to make sure that when
you connect with our system, youpull your information as you
know that information came from where it's supposed to come from
and that it is the accurate information on at least the

(08:29):
documentation of what your health is.
So that's what we started on. Everybody rally behind that
information, but behind that that goal and when everybody
rallied behind that go when all those shiny objects, AI and all
those things came in forefront, we know we're trying to get
there, but we wanted to make sure to do that foundational
thing and work right and build those stair steps.
So I come from a technology background.
They have the waterfall method and that's just kind of step by

(08:51):
step that you take and everybody's used this agile
method when you just kind of do a bunch of things and make them
come together. So we look at it as an agile
method of trying to get everybody together to work
towards one common goal that really is a waterfall stair step
to the next goal that we're trying to go to.
So we use the job method to build that waterfall growth.
So we look at it from a standpoint is that there's

(09:12):
certain stair steps that you have to get there.
And each stair steps require a group of people coming together,
filling in gaps and understand how to get that stair steps.
And each one of those stair steps may require a different
subset of people are in partnersto get there.
And when you look at it that way, everybody comes together.
Get to 1 stair step. You may not be able to use the
same. I'll talk about the journey a

(09:32):
lot, but you may not be able to use the same people are personal
that gets you the first half that journey.
You may have to, you know, find a whole nother set of partners
as you get on the next stair step of this this this goal.
So the next goal, so to speak. So I look at it as a team coming
together agilely to get to 1 portion of this and make sure
you have a foundation going makes you do that right, right.

(09:52):
Then let the next stair. So it's kind of follow each
other. Yeah, and, and you know, like a
team of this, this podcast, because, you know, I've, I've
talked a lot of leaders here and, and they also share that
similar, you know, experience ofhaving to find new team after
you go to a certain stage and you achieve something and now
you have to go to the next phase.
And sometimes even founders findthemselves in this position.

(10:14):
Actually, I had to guess who even shared how he's constantly
making sure that he's upscaling,continuous learning.
He's making sure that he knows his market just so that he can
stay sharp. But then the other side of that
is like, how do you navigate that having to move to the next
step, the people that brought you there, and then that grief
of having to, you know, pathwaysbecause they no longer have the

(10:35):
capabilities to take the companyto where it needs to go.
Like how on on your own personaljourney, not even personal, but
your own journey as ACEO of a health healthcare company, which
is already complex. Well, how do you go about always
making sure either your team is always upscaling or if you get
to a point where they don't, they don't have the capabilities

(10:57):
as hard as that sound, how do you go about navigating that
that grief? It's really hard, right?
And so that's, that's, that's the leadership.
And so most of entrepreneurs arevisionaries, right?
They see a vision, have to fulfill that vision, and you
have to get the personnels in place to help you get to each
step of your vision. But as a visionary, sometimes a
long lonely Rd. because you see certain way, certain things that

(11:19):
you have to do to get to your vision and you recognize that
certain personnel and skill setsthat you on each step of the way
that goes back to that, that stair step approach that we're
talking about. So you bring a lot of group of
people together, get you to thatfirst step, that first ledge.
And it's hard at that time because you recognize the people
that did the hard work to get you there may not be valuable
for the next step, right? But at the same time, there may

(11:40):
be skills and plays that help you solidify and maintain that
that that foundation piece. So you have to look at it two
ways. And the one way I really talked
to our team a lot about is that there's people that help you
climb the mountain and there's people that help you stay there.
Those are two different skill sets you have to have.
And just think about that stir step as a ledge.
Once you get over that ledge, that flat ground, there are
people that may have to help till that ground and make sure

(12:03):
it's sustainable. And you have to find a next
group to help you grow it. If you dig a Amazon, Microsoft
and all these different things that grow, there's certain
people that came with that stay with them, but there's also a
certain set of skills that needsto stay on that first phase.
If you're just talking about documentation in Microsoft,
that's great. You can, you know, there's a
certain set of people that supports that, but then we talk
about integrating that into other platforms and stuff.

(12:24):
Microsoft have to do it a littlebit different.
Now they have to find a skill set that's thinking about
integration. So it's a different set of skill
sets that need. But if you can section out kind
of where your approach is and ifyou can stair step it, it's
easier to identify. I need you on this level.
I have to go to the next level and these are skill sets I need
for that too. That's one thing I did I just to
find out what portion of the stair step we're trying to get

(12:45):
to and where I need you at, where your skill sets are best
at. And it's not always easy because
most people can't see that it's and the hardest thing to do is
that you get people that came inat mentors you to get there
right, And you realize you outgrown the mentor.
Those are the hardest things to take.
Hard it is. But if you want to be successful
and grow, you have to realize that, OK, this is a little bit

(13:05):
bigger than you. I'm sure this not be done with
this. But when I first started, I
remember going in rooms in the rooms like goodness, man, they
were eating me alive about what my vision was I was doing.
How are you don't want to be able to do it, you know, and and
so on and so forth. But it took me about two of the
years to realize when I walked in this room, instead of being
intimidated being those rooms, Icould look across the table.
And as successful as these people were across the table, I

(13:27):
realized that the, the product was bigger than a room, right?
When you understand the product can be bigger than a room, you
can walk out and like, they justdon't understand, no matter how
much success they have, if it's just, if everybody gets
intimidated by what somebody's already done before, where does
the innovation start, right? It doesn't start in a room where
everybody already understands it.
Innovation starts when it's outside of what the understand

(13:48):
the normal understanding of whattechnology should do.
And once you grasp that point and you really kind of look at
where the market is, you're doing your work and
understanding what the market issaying, what is repeating back
to you? You're out there tilling the
ground, you're hammering nails and you're on the ground level.
So you know what the market and the technology is telling you,
how it integrates. So you sit in some of these
rooms, people are accustomed to what they know, what the last 20

(14:09):
years of technology has taught them, last 15 years of them in
an executive position has taughtthem.
It doesn't mean they understand where the next innovation could
go. And that's why you see a lot of
these companies now looking for smaller companies to come and
integrate with because they understand what's on the ground
level. It's even more, it's even more
important now that smaller companies come in and show the
big pictures to larger companiesbecause they're the ones that's

(14:31):
really on the ground making things happen.
And together they make good products, right?
And you see that all around the globe and all around technology,
there's larger companies that have these smaller startups that
come in space to help enhance what their product already is.
Wow, you've given me so much to like go off of and I'm, and I'm
going to start here just to makesure that I don't just, you

(14:51):
know, share everything that's flying in my head.
That's why I wear a bandana and a fedora to make sure that can
happen. Well, I might need that because
everything comes out whatever's in my head.
It just turned. Out I know I hear you.
I always feel that that need to just like drop everything at
once. But but over the years of
talking to so many people, I've learned to like dissect the
questions as we go. But the first question that came

(15:13):
up is like your your company is becoming a global company.
You, you guys are working in Africa now, now, like Portugal,
you're going to all these different places and you've
talked about just growth, you know, outgrowing people that
you're with. But like, that's no other side
to that. Like how do you make sure that
you're hiring someone at such a fast growing scale?
Like how do you make sure that you are not bringing someone who

(15:34):
may even stifle that growth? Because I, I had a guest here
who said he doesn't hire people that on LinkedIn.
They put like, I work for this company, this company, this
company, this company, like Google, all the, you know,
fortune companies, you notice anindividual, not, not all of
them, but some of them come in and they will try to hold the,
the actual growth because they are, they're so experienced and
they see all the bad things thatcould happen.

(15:55):
So they stop the founders from growth.
Like how do you go about that? And also maintaining, I guess,
like respectable and, and a goodculture while you were trying to
hire or like, you know, find theright people for the for the
right positions. Yeah, I'm going through that
even now, right? That, that that doesn't stop,
right. So there's certain there's
people that help you climb the mountain to a certain point,
right? That's been a part of that.

(16:17):
But it's your job as a, as a founder, the leader that to
identify if it's not going to direction that you want to take
it. So you're a visionary.
So those conversations are always hard, always tough and
they're expected, right? You, you, you know that as a
leader, that's part of your role, right?
If you have kids, it's no different, right?
You have the kids that they havetheir own vision of what they
want to do and you let them go in their own direction because

(16:37):
it's their life, whatever. But you got to understand if
it's your company, you're driving, you have the vision and
you have to drive it and make sure it's directing the way you
want it to go. You're not always going to pick
right? You're not going to do that,
right? You get us most out of the
person that you can to drive towards vision, but when it
becomes cancerous to where it affects everybody else vision,
you got to get rid of that fast.That's a lesson that I learned
just recently, right? So when things happen and you

(17:00):
feel like your guts going to tell you, right, that intuition
that you have, you know, right where things are going.
And I'm more of the most inclusive person you'll probably
ever meet, right? So I'm helping you trying to
help. I'm trying to help you help me,
right, right. And that's not the way it should
be, right? And that's something I had to
learn, right? But over time, what I've started
to understand too, is that fire fast rid of fast because that

(17:22):
cancer that, that, that that festation of negativity right
towards the vision can slow everything down.
And before you know it, you're like, I could have cut this off
a long time ago. Yeah, further down the road.
So you can't really, you can do your best to really identify the
best fit for your company, right.
What I will tell you, one thing I've learned that not to have is
when a person comes to you and you're, they're talking about

(17:44):
what they've done and how to connect to it.
And they never see anything thatthey've done wrong, right?
And what they adjusted to right.That's a #1 the issue, I think
get rid of those fast. Don't at all because again, it's
about the gaps. It goes back to where I was
saying before, they have to unidentify their gaps because
they don't they'll be working towards something that they're
not really good at. They're trusting them to do

(18:04):
certain things that they can't do.
If they're open and honest on where their strengths are, then
it helps you to understand to put them in a place of, of
success, right, to help you growtoo.
So honesty is really important about who you are and what
you're doing. So if somebody give you a long
list of things that they've done, they work for these big
companies that you probably haven't had to grind as hard
because you have resources you can tap into when you're

(18:26):
starting something. You need somebody that can think
on their feet and find stuff without their when they have to
find a resources to be successful.
That's a different person, right?
Then somebody give you a budget,two or three work, two people
working about under you and stuff of that nature.
But if somebody got to find the resources to support it, that's
a different type of person you're looking for.
Right. No, Yeah, I actually fell into

(18:48):
that one time as a founder because I hired a guy who was a
former, you know, CMOI worked asa CMO.
But it would, you know, I was like a fractional CMO.
Yeah, yeah. Bonds from one company to
another. But he worked at CMO with a very
big company. And when I hired him, he came in
and he was like, wait, so where's my team?
I was like, I was like, wait, what?

(19:09):
Like this is a startup. We don't have a team.
You figured it out these. Days is gone.
You're trying to get there right?
So and and there may be it's andI will need it.
You may need them down the road.But right now, exactly.
I need somebody that has a book that brings a book bag of tools
with them. Right.
That I can tap to. Squeeze knife, Yes.
Yes, you have to have that now even more even in the larger
companies now is that you see isthat they're reducing staff

(19:32):
sizes for a reason, because I realize there are you need
people efficient in tools and how to use them and be calling
to do certain things. Even technology and marketing
car are cross referencing their self.
Now. You have to be good at
marketing. You got to understand
technology. It just crosses the same board
and even as the CEO now running a business, you can't just
understand the day-to-day and beable to communicate it

(19:52):
day-to-day. I got to sit on here and
communicate with you and let youknow.
All right, here's where we're going to be the to be the seller
of the business. Well, right, so marketing can
lead certain ways, but see, evenat leading the company, you
can't just lead the team. You have to lead the vision and
branding of the company as well.I mean, especially right now
there, there's so much, you know, speeds required in, in, in

(20:13):
like ideas or vision. Yeah.
I feel like technology is movingso fast sometimes by the time
you realize your, your vision isalready absolute.
Yeah, that's yeah. There's so many people that have
already done it because you're like, Oh my God, how do I keep
up? Yeah, yeah, keep up.
Which which also brings another anal question because I don't
have a lot of founders on this podcast.
Usually I talk to a lot of execslike C suites, people that are

(20:34):
like, they have hundreds of thousands of employees.
Yeah, they're very high up there.
Yeah, I've talked to someone whoowns companies across the
country and usually when it comes to burnout, I feel like
they don't normally have become a solid answer.
And I know you are on that fast growing space where you're
growing very fast. You are having to hire fast, you

(20:55):
have fire fast. And I know yourself, you are
traveling a lot. How do you, how do you see
burnout play out in this time ofyour, of, of, of your career?
Now that you have kids and you know you have a family, your,
the family is growing as well And, and then your company is
growing at the same time. How does burnout play out for
you? It it, it not only burns

(21:18):
burnout's not only a part of this process, but it's also
important, is an important part of just learning and growing.
Burnout for me kind of is reallyis it is the toughest part of
this because when you're going through the burnout phase of
things, you're always thinking about, am I doing too much?
What can I cut back on? You know, can I get more
resources? Is this for me?

(21:39):
You know, you get all those questions asked, but that's when
you tap into that why you kind of look at it and say, Hey, is
this one of the things to where I'm really not being, not being
truthful with myself on what I can accomplish?
Or is it just a phase to get to that next step?
You know, so it's it's it's never really easy, right to make
the the right decisions on on when it's time to stop, when the

(22:01):
time to rest. But I always put family first if
I can as somebody, I just saw this and I hope I don't get this
mixed, mixed up. I want to say it was 11 actor
said he said, I know an entrepreneur, a true
entrepreneur is when they wake up at night when they're asleep,
they're looking at the roof and they turn over and look at their
wife and say, Hey, we not we maynot be able to do things we want
to do because we have to pay employees, right decisions like

(22:24):
that, right? Those are burnout things, but
it's things necessary for it to grow.
But the important part of entrepreneurs, what do you have
to do to keep be growing? What is true burnout to where
you can slice off this and really focus least focusing as
less as possible. But burnout is one of those
things to where it's in the eye to beholder, right?
How much can you take to get there?

(22:45):
And you're always asking yourself, is this plausible?
Am I you? You're going to as a as a
founder, you're going to always ask yourself, am I doing too
much right? So it's a gut check thing.
I don't have a good answer for that.
All I can tell you is that there's many times I looked at
the ceiling and I looked at my wife like, man, what are we
doing? What are we?
What are we doing? But that's the part of it too.

(23:05):
I can relate to that. Thank you for that.
You know, like detail answer as a founder, because normally,
again, like I said, I don't talkto a lot of founders here.
Usually they're well establishedCEOs and sometimes, you know, I,
I hear the answer, But as a but as a founder, especially
founders, just listen to this podcast.
I feel like I haven't answered that question for them because
the reality is what you just said, like, you know, we're, we

(23:28):
just founded something. This is something that we've
created and we're working day and night and making sure that
the vision comes to life. And, and, and I want to ask you
this question, like, what do youthink differentiates a founder?
And then you know ACEO because you are a founder and ACEO but
you are the founder at the end of the day.
Yeah, interesting company. We, it's funny you asked me that

(23:49):
because I spend most of my time trying to blend them together,
right? That's I spend most of my time
to be the leader of it, right. But then found the company.
So to me, a founder has a strongwire, strong input behind what
he does whatever. And a lot of times it drives him
through the chaotic part of things, right?
You can depend on that, that founder, not to hand off the
pressure, but to walk everybody through the pressure from ACEO

(24:12):
standpoint and think usually it's like they're, you're
running somebody else's vision that you're really good at
organizations and structure. So when pressure comes, you're
looking at a way to save the company.
And I, I talk about this a lot with my team.
It's a difference between the mindset of a saving a company,
right? The structure, make sure it's in
the best position and building it.

(24:32):
A founder is always building it to point to where it gets to the
point to where some of the people are following you blindly
to the space because they're seeing where you're headed.
They don't see necessarily whereyou're headed, but they see the
passion that you're driving there.
ACEO breaks down. Here's a beginning, here's the
end, right? And here's how we're going to
get there. Everybody understands their
role. They understands when they even
understand their cut off rate. If you run a project from ACEO,

(24:55):
they might say this is a six month project we'll need you on.
Once this is done, we won't needyou anymore.
From a founder standpoint, we'relike, if we get to this point,
I'm going to need you to do XY and Z.
And do you have your Swiss Army knife book bag of tools that can
leverage with it, right? Not only as a a founder to me is
more visionary driving. They have a whole different set
of tools or relationships behindthem that's helping them drive

(25:16):
forward. The CEO comes with a lot of to
me would have a lot of structurebehind it.
As a founder, I'm fighting to get that right.
You're always fighting to get that CEO mentality.
But I think without a founder mentality, sometimes you're
limited in a way, right to only do what you're told and what
structure is. But a vision would take it
another direction and IA good example to me.

(25:38):
I always talk about Steve Jobs and and when he when they pushed
him away from the company, right, Steve Jobs was they were
struggling with Steve Jobs because he didn't operate as
CEO. He operated as what a founder
when he presented and told the story where things was headed,
he was dragging people in different in places that they
were uncomfortable, right? And that's where the founder
lives, is building, right? Everybody else, I think from

(26:01):
ACEO mentality, that's the only mentality you have.
You're only saving what already exists.
A founder is building something that doesn't.
Yeah, wow, that's deep. That's a, that's a very
psychological response to, to, to, to how different the two
positions are. But why it's also important to,
as a founder to, to to blend andhow balance between those two.

(26:21):
Cause to your point, Steve Jobs did lose his company at some
point, even though they realizedthey needed him.
But I'm sure he went through extreme training.
Is, is, is. You know what, to me, I'll take
a step further. It's the structure of it, right?
Everybody's fighting for structure because that's what I
understand a founders, A visionary, that structure
doesn't exist because they're innovating, right?
When you're innovating something, you can't tap into
something that exists, right? So it becomes a structure.

(26:43):
You need it even as a founder, it has a realist in, right?
But once we're real and we find our pocket as founders,
whatever, that's when we become very dangerous whatever because
we know the walls that we live inside.
We know when we step out and step into it.
So I think founders can be really effective and and really
effective any company you need that CEO.
But you all see that founder side by side.

(27:05):
And yeah, I think it was Steve Jobs sidekick.
I can't think. I think he still runs it.
Now. Wasan, yeah.
So you think about Wasan where he said he was in the face of
it, but he structured everythingaround there.
But Steve Jobs is driving it. You need both of those like that
oil and water to make it grow. But those are difference between
a founder and CEO to me is that it's a structure side of

(27:25):
whatever. Sometimes we founder.
We live outside the boundaries of of.
Structure sometimes yeah we havea little bit of delusion and you
know I call it positive delusionif you if you're aware of that
delusion yeah yeah cuz it's likewalking up to people that are
like that I spend years doc evenright now I'm.
I'm trying to, you know, I'm like slowly bringing someone who

(27:46):
has a doctorate in psychology. She's like, he's like talking to
her. I feel like I have to have the
dictionary just to understand what she's saying.
But within as I found, right, I can see all the ways that I can
help her and vice versa. She can help me.
That's one of the reasons why I approach her.
It's like, I I know I lack this and I need you to come and
manage the internal culture and the relationship with the client

(28:06):
so that I can leave in the delusion and keep taking us as
far as like, and then and I knowshe has that expertise.
I see her as a possible CEO in the future.
Yeah, because I don't, I don't need to be sitting in that
position. It's like it limits me.
Yeah, I remember going through alot of the, I don't know if I'm
ashamed, the positive says. I've been through a lot of
accelerators over the years, right, with multiple business.

(28:27):
I think I've been in eight or nine of them and probably been
in the group of upwards of 80 companies that's been I've been
in these groups with. I got to see them more
intimately and how these companies grow.
One thing I've done, what I've started to do since I've kind of
evolved from accelerated side ofit is one thing I recognize
rather is that from a there's buzzwords and buzz terms that's

(28:48):
get coached through them. All right, now I want to say
this different spaces accelerators, I've been in a
bunch of them, right, But there's a bud buzzwords and
cultures and accelerate that exist across the continuum of
it, right, These accelerators that makes them all kind of
succinct, similar in ways. But what I've learned is that I
got away from the buzzwords and the revenue and all this stuff.
My all that stuff is necessary, right?

(29:10):
But I started to think outside that in an important part about
everything that you learned about business stuff, you have
to know when to pull them in when they're needed.
They're not the answer. They only should be pulled in as
needed, right? So determine and stuff, they put
stuff in the deck. You have to be XY and Z,
whatever. The most success I had when I
sat in a room and had a conversation said I'm not
leaving out of here. Do you understand what I'm
talking about? Right.

(29:31):
And 5 or 6 minutes sitting across the table, I feel that
imposter syndrome, whatever you can get up and walk away.
You start to narrow around all the BS, right?
And get right to the cortex of what you're trying to, you know,
what you're trying to come across.
And what I've just learned just from acceleration standpoints
and being these groups for a lotof entrepreneurs is that we find
ourselves all the time trying tofit inside this box that we've

(29:52):
been taught to do. You got to have a revenue model
reference. I remember when I first started
the match, right? And we were talking about this
seven years ago. And I'm in a I'm in a world this
Cerner is Oracle now. But I remember sitting in
pitching and I they say, Chris, you're bull in the ocean, right?
What you're building is there's too much like this out.
There's no comparable. And I was sitting there thinking

(30:12):
like, not only am I not bull in the ocean, I could be a support
to the very thing you thought was like mine, right?
So I was coming in forefront 6-7years later.
But at that time, if I had to just let that resonate in my
mind and walk away that, you know, they are giving me, you
know, really good insights on where this is head and I should
walk away from it. I wouldn't even be sitting in
front of you today. Whatever, but founders have to

(30:33):
move outside of what the notebook says and the paper says
and going to work and what they believe and drive for it.
You know, even when things doesn't always seem plausible.
But if you've done your own product market fit and you think
it's possible, then you should go for.
It right, I know, yeah. I mean, I feel like we have like
similar beliefs in, in like being a founder running a
company. And, and like, you know, I do

(30:55):
want to go into the process a little bit because I know being
a founder is, is, is comes with a lot of pressure.
And sometimes the pressure can trickle down to do people very
easily. You're not aware.
And, and in this podcast, we we like talk about like retention a
lot like retaining people, especially from from like an
executive, you know, like standpoint.
Yeah, as a founder, how do you see that play out?

(31:17):
You trying to navigate the vision, manage your executive
team and then also retaining thepeople within the whole
ecosystem. Like what are some mistakes that
you may see as a founder and when it comes to retention,
retaining your people and then also how do you navigate that as
well? Yeah, egos, I think first it is

(31:38):
right, mine and everybody else is that I don't, I, I don't
have, I don't try to portray egoat all, right.
And I'm probably, I probably should show more at least
pressure on my my vision than I do, right?
But I'm always inclusive in conversations, inclusive in
ideas all the time. And what I've learned that is
that the egos that sit on the other side gets broader, right?

(32:01):
And balancing those become really important because the ego
is the first thing that to the demise of a relationship to me,
because when it comes in is thatyou're the visionary, you're
building it and you put this thing in place, your company,
your direction. Unfortunately, somebody behind
the scenes that's working with you around you have to follow
that lead, right? But egos make it hard to do

(32:21):
that, right? Especially and it's not eagles
is a bad thing. They may have a product, they
want to get it and maybe have something they want to do in the
future. But once taming egos are the
most important thing, at least identifying them.
So when you see those things creeping up and some of the
conversation, whatever you got them towards, like you're
falling behind my vision. This is the way I say, I need
your input, but I'm trying to get us a certain position.
Can you see the direction that I'm headed?

(32:43):
And I think it's is important for that that founders known as
not necessarily have to put their ego over somebody elses
ego, but you got to portray thatvision and that vision maybe
come off as you have an ego, butit really you just trying to
drive them towards the vision, right.
And my wife said something just this week.
She was like, Chris, if you build it, you got to, you got to

(33:03):
connect it globally and all these things.
When you bring people in, they have to see the direction that
you're taking it. Because if he had to have the
same vision, they would have already done it, right?
So you have people to be, you have to have people to be able
to walk with you, right? And not behind you, but beside
you, right? So, and that's the things that
I've learned over time, right? Because I'm very inclusive as a
person. I'm very looking forward to

(33:24):
people to give me the right, give me any input, any thought
process, whatever. But what I also learned too is
that as I get this input, sometimes I'm like, well, I hear
what you're saying, but this direction we have to go.
And sometimes I give that too much credence, right?
It should be cut off sooner. So there's things I have to
learn in the same spot to where that would give that person that
that feels like I'm not giving them.

(33:45):
Maybe they're just do whatever they have other vision that they
may want to cut off and go a different direction, which is
fair, right? But it on both sides.
So I had to learn over how to bemore direct and what we're doing
and where we're headed and what the vision is, right?
If the input doesn't fit the vision, it just don't fit the
vision vision. It doesn't mean that it's not
good for something that you wantto do.
Take your lessons and learn and be able to build it.
And I will support that 100% because who knows down the line

(34:07):
it may help us even grow up, right?
No, yeah. I have a similar experience with
that where, you know, about fouryears ago, you know, I had a
team of like 60, I think 6465 and like I had a CEO that I
brought in and you know, and then also brought in a
communications expert. They're all like very qualified
individuals. They, they come to the office

(34:28):
with a suit on and I showed up with shorts and fedora and like,
you know, chains and six rings, you know, so they were like the
typical people that are ready toscale the company, which, you
know, I, I, that was the reason why I brought them in.
But what I noticed that it happening was like whenever we
have meetings, I saw my voice slowly disappearing, 'cause
they, they have such strong to your point, the, the ego and

(34:53):
their, you know, perspective wasvalid.
But then is not for what I built.
Yes. And literally I remember having
to cancel a big project that that we had, we had so many
stakeholders, almost 300 people coming to can city for it.
But then I, I remember sitting back looking and I'm just like,
what does this have to do with what I'm doing?
And I remember saying that. And then I had to cancel
everything like a week before, which turned out to be a big

(35:16):
problem, which also showed that they didn't see me as the
leader. Yeah, it was the weirdest
experience. I was like, whoa, OK, so I
should speak up more. I should make sure that I have
guidelines like this is what I'mbuilding and I appreciate your
input and I appreciate you helping me further division.
However, we have to remember this is what the goal is.
This is the foundation and I miss that.

(35:38):
And so now moving forward, now whenever I hire someone that I
know they're way qualified, I, Ispend like 90 days try like a
trial where I get to know them, I get to, for them to know me.
And I and I open the finances sort of they can be more
comfortable and, and on the understand what's happening
before we even start working on a, on like a professional, like
not even professional, but like a full time basis.

(35:59):
So yeah, that's, that's something that I can relate to
as a founder where I just let the ball drop because I was
like, oh, they're so smart. They're big titles.
Yeah, it goes. It goes back to the original
part of my story is that even when you're sitting across the
table, you're presenting yourself, You're presenting your
company, You're presenting either for money or partnership
or relationship or to come work with me, whatever that is.

(36:20):
You're always presenting that information over it, but at any
point in time in the conversation, whatever, you got
to understand that sometimes theidea of conversation is bigger
than a room, right? And that's when you have to walk
away. Whether it's hiring a person,
whether it's hiring a partnership, whether it's
raising money or capital, whatever that is, is at some
point you have to understand, all right, this is not going and
the way I want to go, right? I see either I know where my

(36:43):
vision is because when they leave out of here, right, they
can leave out of here and say, well, you know, thanks for the
conversation. I appreciate it.
Whatever they can go back to their business being successful,
whatever it is, but I have to goback festering over that
conversation, say what am I doing wrong?
What should I change? Whatever.
So you have to understand that your idea in your vision is just
a valuable that person that sitsacross from you.

(37:03):
I had to learn that really just recently, right in the hard
lessons, you know, but you're better for it.
You you're really better for it to know that what you're
building, what you're doing is not only have the capability to
succeed, but that you have it onthe right track.
Yeah. You know, so you have to
understand that going into and that don't let anybody deter you
from that. Yeah, you're going to have to

(37:23):
make some changes, some adjustment.
But when you've been at it long enough, you had some successes.
Whatever. Nobody wins 100%, right?
Nobody bats 100 for sure. But if you're batting 60% on
your way to success, whatever, Ithink you're going the right
direction, especially if there'sno booklet or manual for.
It right, No, I hear you. So like we are running out of
time when we, you kind of, you know, I have, I have something

(37:45):
that, you know, like happened from all the conversations that
I've had on this podcast, which I'm now calling into three CS of
to live to three CS to like retention to three CS.
And I want to get your take fromit as a founder.
You know, the the first C is clarity and the second C is
communication and the third C iscapacity in that order.

(38:06):
Like how do you see, you know, like clarity play out as a
founder running a company building, building the company
with individuals and, and you know, I would love your take on
the clarity aspect and then alsocommunication and then also
capacity. Yeah, clarity is important,
right, 'cause that's something that I might not have been the
best at starting this out, right?
Because especially as a visionary of the of the company

(38:29):
and and where you want to take is that you are clear on what
you wanted to do, but you're notclear on the details to get it
there. You know, so when you bring
people in, you're literally bringing people in to help you
get that clarity, right. But they're looking for you to
give them. All right, which way are we
going? You're looking, you look for
them to give you that information, but they're looking
to you. I All right.
What's our next steps? Yeah.

(38:49):
So the clarity comes important. What I learned.
I, I'll tell you what I learned on that too.
This clarity is not the details,is not what you do.
Clarity is a direction that you want to go and they, the, the
clear way you can give them where you, what you're trying to
do and to make clarity just a common seat for everybody is
that you have to tell. I'm looking for you to give me
these here start out at the beginning of the conversation.

(39:11):
Like I don't come to me for the details.
If I had them, I wouldn't have you sitting here, right?
But what I do know I have the relationships and the connection
say at least get us halfway there.
I need you guys to fill in the blank.
Let them know what be clear on what their role actually is.
And that's where the egos go outside, right?
They go outside the outside the window because there is no ego
in in my eyes to where I know everything and all the details.

(39:32):
I don't. All I know is I have the
capacity to get there in some points, right, with the right
people. And I know the direction that we
want to head it head in. Are you cable?
Do you have enough tools? We're just taking this back to
the beginning conversation. Do you have enough tools in your
tool bag? Because I don't have those
tools. That's what you're here for,
right? And it goes into the whole thing
about being a founder is that you're hiring and bringing

(39:53):
people on and filling some of those details that you don't
have, right? They're leading to you to at
least the supply division. And when that's communicated to
me, that's where the clarity side of it too, right?
Communication starts with that. To jump back in three seats.
Communication is a part at beingclear as you communicate with
them. Is that I'm not.
Don't look for me to give you the detailed answers, whatever.
What I'm looking for you is to use your tools, right to be able

(40:15):
to where I necessarily don't have, I don't have the capacity
to do it. But can you tap into your
toolbox and bring something out to help fill in these details
while I'm trying to present the vision?
So the communication is so important because and I'm I'm
learning. It's not like anything I just
been able to do effectively all the time.
So you're learning. So really give them a clear cut

(40:37):
and really being leave you at the door, communicate that, Hey,
there's no egos here at all. I don't know, right, where some
of these things are. I know we're headed, but I need
you to be able to fill in these gaps.
That's what I brought you on for.
And capacity building is just, Ithink on the end of that ties
into, you know, the clarity and the communication side, because
based on that, you see what kindof capacity your team has,

(40:57):
right? And what parts of these stair
steps that we're going, what parts of those, those stairs
that we can achieve together, because it ties every our whole
conversation together, right? I like, I'm glad you kind of put
that together that way. I didn't even we didn't plan for
this, right? But as you're trying to the
team, right, the communications,communicating this agile team to

(41:18):
try to get to a certain stair. There's about 5 steps to get to
the top right, But you're communicating with an agile
team. Here's what I need you guys to
do, right? Here's where I need your roles
are fill in the gaps I don't have leave the Eagles at the
door. You get to the first step,
right? That's where it starts when the
capacity building starts to makesense is like how many of this
resource can take us to the nextlevel?
Or do they stop here and I bringsomebody else in half maybe can

(41:41):
go with your half can't and halfmay say, this is my job here.
Thanks, I've learned a lot. Let me go do what I can do next.
But that compared that that capacity building for me is
really to understand as we get to each steps, each level,
there's people that can help youclimb the mountain, parts of the
mountain, and there's people that help you stay there, you
know, and just understanding where those people sit inside
your repertoire of resources that you have is important.

(42:03):
And communication and clarity isso important to make that.
Happen. Well, you've beautifully
outlined that. I feel that moving forward, that
should be a very talking piece for you because it kind of
encompasses everything that we've talked about here, what
you do and how you see things and how you view people that you
work with. So so again, thank you for
breaking that down. All right, this will be the last

(42:24):
time I'm going to interrupt yourlistening experience, but I just
want to say this. You know how you finish an
episode and you wish you could be in the same room for the
conversation? Well, on October 15th, you
actually can. Workplace unfiltered.
A Heliona experience is your chance to be part of it all.
Live at the Abbot in Kansas City, RSVP at heliona dot IO

(42:47):
before spots run out. That's Heliona, as in HELIONA
and I'll see you there. We do have a tradition here that
I that I always ask at the end of every conversation.
So after everything that we've talked about from the moment you
walked into the building up until this moment right now,
like how is your spirit right now?

(43:09):
Pavan it's always wondering, right?
It's it's, it's always wondering, right from a
standpoint of are we doing the right thing right, right now,
right? Do we have the right people,
right? And am I headed in the right
direction, right. And I think that's the job
that's going to always be there.And it's not just with the
business with the family, right.How does it affect your family

(43:30):
too? Because as a founder, my wife
is, is key part of it. Like she's my right hand that
helps you manage through a lot of stuff.
So everything I do business wiseaffects the family directly.
And then what's the end goal? Wondering what is the end goal?
What does the future entail? And those, you know, those
things that you just don't know the families key, like my, my,
my, my kids and my wife. I close, you know, family

(43:53):
members too, is like when we getto a certain level, when do we
break off and do something, you know, different, right?
You know, so it's always wondering, My spirits are always
wondering like, where are we headed?
You know, what's the best approach?
What's the next steps, right? Once we get to this stair step,
what, what do we do after that? So it's always in a place of
wonder, right? But gratefulness, right?

(44:14):
Just grateful what I've learned where we're at.
I show you this and I'll leave it with this.
I'll tell my son all the time what's tomorrow, you know,
what's tomorrow. And he always repeat, repeat
back to me another day to get better.
You know, that was always our thing.
So good or bad or whatever. I don't care if you had a good
day or bad day, There's always aday to learn from and get
better. So it's always, instead of
wondering, grateful. Yeah, I like that.

(44:37):
You know, I, I, I can see that you have a mind of a founder and
not that that's your identity, but the fact that you have the
curiosity of always, you know, what's next.
But then also have the humility to, to say that I don't know,
which is very important that I love to see in founders.
Not, not that my take has any meaning, but you know, it makes

(44:58):
me happy when I see founders that, you know, they have that
sense of urgency, but then the, the vision, but they have the
humility to, to know that I needhelp.
And, but they also have the clarity to say that this is how
I want help to look like. And, and I know you have the
expertise. Come on on.
But then also when the person isno longer available, we just
accept it and move on because, you know, we can't do well on

(45:19):
everything that we've, we've lost in this journey.
Sometimes it can be very lonely.And, and I know I have a lot of
people that are like, not founders and that, that listen
to this podcast, but they work with founders.
And sometimes when I talk to them, I, I, I see that there's a
lack of understanding of what the founder of the, the, the,
the original creators have to gothrough for them to have that

(45:39):
security and that blanket. But not like in a, in like a,
you know, condescending way, butjust out of humility for, for
people that are waking up every day, you know, figuring out how
to pay the, you know, Friday's coming up.
Yeah, man, it's just so one of my one of my close friends and
just he's been a part of his journey for a long way.

(46:00):
He's the ENT doctor. He says something, He said
something to me about 3 or 4 years ago along this journey.
He said you never had to make payroll right.
You don't understand how hard itis to be in business.
Man. So, so when he said that, it was
so real to me and I said, you know what?
I, I, I and I and I. At that point I was just
starting to understand it, but Ireally truly understand that.

(46:22):
Yeah, no, yeah. He's like the the amount of time
I have to call Bank of America. Yeah, it's where is that the
phone calls are like, yes, it's it's you know, I.
Think like it's funny. They know me in person now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey.
I'm building. Right, right.
They have a note. I have three bank accounts right
through them all. But it's a process.
It's a process that requires, you know, your full attention,

(46:43):
right? And your full attention and open
mind, right? And creativity.
Right. And creativity, yeah, I can't
even tell you how creative you have to be.
Not not like in the whole creative sense of people saying,
but just mentally. Mentally, spiritually, it's
emotionally, yeah. So you got to play.
People always say, and I'll leave this, you know, with this

(47:03):
is that we're playing chess, notcheckers, right?
You say that, but I usually try to play chess with all kings and
Queens, right? I usually I start with those.
I think there's pawns there, andyou can leave that a checker.
But you try to play with all thekings and Queens as possible.
Right, everything under the table.
Everything on the table. Yeah, well, thank you for being
here. This has been awesome.
So yeah, thank you for again. Absolutely.

(47:24):
Thanks man.