10 Must Have Roles for Your Zombie Apocalypse Team | Zombie Book Club Ep 124 - Zombie Book Club

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:19):
Welcome to Zombie Book Club.
The only book club for the bookis a framework, which I assume
is something that goes in adoorway.
No Dan.
I am Dan, and when I'm notinspecting frameworks in various
doorways, I am writing a bookabout an anthropology student
who uses her knowledge ofsocietal structures to survive a
zombie apocalypse.
And this is the first time I'veactually pitched a specific

(00:40):
character in my book.

SPEAKER_00 (00:41):
Wow.
The main character.
Can I say our name?

SPEAKER_03 (00:44):
No.

unknown (00:44):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
I'm Leah.
And speaking of frameworks, I'mpretty sure that I'm Bob the
Builder.
And you build frameworks.
I'm a builder in the frameworkwe're going to talk about today,
which is about survival roles inthe apocalypse.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Today is a casual dead.
So we'll be doing some lifeupdates.
We're going to talk about someoptions to buy gifts from indie
authors and local folks insteadof corporations that are the

(01:10):
devil.
Because this is the week to beboycotting them, if there's ever
a week to do it.
Yeah.
And then we're going to beexploring what roles each one of
us would play in the zombieapocalypse.
This is a long awaited episodein my own brain.
Yeah.
It's it's kind of like wehaven't done it yet.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24):
Because while while you put together this episode, I
was actually daydreaming a verysimilar topic because it was,
you know, research for the book.
Yeah.
So uh so when I saw that when Isaw this in the notes, I'm like,
whoa, Leah's doing a similarthing.
Except yours is actually basedon something and not just the

(01:44):
random machinations of my adultbrain.
A framework, some might say.
Yeah.
Some kind of thing that goes ina doorway.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
And the good news is that these roles are useful in
zombie apocalypse, but they'realso useful in the revolution.
They're useful in just being agreat community member.
Yeah.
And odds are you're probablyalready doing it.
So it's just about extending itinto more difficult
circumstances and thinking abouthow you could be a little more
prepared to do that in a zombieapocalypse and other forms of
apocalypse.

SPEAKER_03 (02:14):
Yeah.
And let us know what frameworkyou are.
What framework they are?
Yeah.
Which one?
What role they are in theframework.
What frameworks?

SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
I am Do you build frameworks indoors?

SPEAKER_03 (02:26):
Are you a carpenter?

SPEAKER_00 (02:27):
I'm having a flashback to one of my old
bosses saying that I hateframeworks inside of frameworks,
which that either meanssomething to you or means
nothing to you.
So we'll move on.
We release episodes everySunday, so subdoodle-doo.
Yeah, I put that one in there.
Yeah.
Also, reviews are nice.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (02:44):
Reviews.
Um, five stars, please.

SPEAKER_00 (02:46):
Yeah, we got a really nice email recently, but
I don't have permission to shareit.
So oh, okay.
But it was nice.
It was really nice.
Did you tell me about it?
I did, but you probably forgot.
Oh, I did.
I'll tell you later.

SPEAKER_03 (02:57):
Leah, we have a we have groans from the horde,
Leah.

SPEAKER_00 (03:02):
From the Facebook horde.
Yeah.
What's Facebook like?
I, you know, it's I will saythat there are people on there
and they want to talk.
They really are.
And they want to talk to eachother, and that's really cool.
So I am re-embracing Facebook.

SPEAKER_03 (03:15):
You know, our our zombesties out there have
convinced me to come back toFacebook.
It's like I I gave up onFacebook like 2015.

SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
Yeah, this is a big deal for Dan.
I gave up on Facebook like maybefive years ago, but I'm back.
Uh Zombie Book Club PodcastZombesties is our Facebook
group.
And I asked, in honor of theseason of lots of food eating,
uh, what would you make fromyour own pantry for a holiday
meal in the zombie apocalypse?
Only non-perishable itemsallowed.
For those of you who havelistened to a lot of our
interviews, you know this issort of a spin-off of a question

(03:44):
that we ask people who are onthe show.
And I got a lot of really goodanswers, some disgusting.
Oh.
Yeah.
Uh, I again totally forgot toask for permission, so I'm just
gonna read some of them.
One person said, Pop tarts.
It's all I'm legally permittedto cook.
Uh apparently they have 72different kinds in their
cupboard.

(04:05):
70 in one cupboard.
In one cupboard.
That's too many.
That's how you prepare for theapocalypse.
Um Pop Tarts.

SPEAKER_03 (04:11):
You know what?
I I appreciate your bloodsugar's low.
I appreciate this prepper haulof only Pop Tarts.

SPEAKER_00 (04:20):
Yeah, only pop pop pop pop pop pop pop tarts.

SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
You know what?
There's a small amount ofvitamin C in each Pop Tart.
They're not gonna get scurvy.

SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
Here's one that really grossed me out.
Oh.
Tuna corn and pasta casserole.

SPEAKER_03 (04:32):
I mean, I can see it.

SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
It's not something I want to eat, but I feel like I
used to eat tuna casseroles atsome point in my life, and I
probably like them, but the ideaof them just it makes me think
about like all the bad ones thatI've had that are not, you know,
they're like really soggy andfishy.
I'm not really a fish fan.
I'm vegan now, but like I don'teat, uh I never liked fish.

SPEAKER_03 (04:53):
Um I don't think I've ever had a tuna casserole.
Um, but I I did have like uh aperiod where I was obsessed with
tuna sandwiches.
Um I used to go to the corner uhgrocery store that they like had
pre-made sandwiches, and one ofthose things was a tuna
sandwich.
And it was just it was so it wasso plain and and basic, but I

(05:14):
loved it.

SPEAKER_00 (05:15):
See, oddly enough, there was a tuna sandwich that I
did love at this place calledFukafi, which was a Canadian
place in downtown Toronto.
Um, and it w if you think aboutit from a Canadian accent, it's
Fucafe.
Fuck off, eh?
I get it.
I like that place.
Let's go.
They had really good um tunasandwiches where they put

(05:35):
cranberry in it.
That was good.
And I think it was likeprovolone cheese.
Yeah, I could see that.
Yeah.
Um, okay, another one, wildturkey and rice soup.
That actually sounds edible.

SPEAKER_03 (05:46):
You know, I um I I recall this one when I checked
when I checked the Facebook andknow who it was.
And I I had to point out, um, Ireplied to that one.
I had to point out that uh thatsounds like a terrible
combination.
You cannot pour wild turkeybourbon into rice and call it
soup.
That is awful.

(06:06):
And you should be ashamed ofyourself.

SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
I knowing the person, I'm gonna just say is
Lori Calcatera of Path of thePale Rider Fame.
She's been on the show so much,I feel like she'll forgive us
for sharing that it was hers.
And I'm pretty sure that ifanybody has a pantry that's
ready for the apocalypse otherthan Sarah Lyons Fleming, it's
Laura Lori Calcatera.
Uh here's another one that I waslike actually excited about.
Meatless chili.

(06:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I have beans, chili mix, dicetomatoes, and tomato sauce
already.
That's perfect.
Everybody should have that intheir cupboard.

SPEAKER_03 (06:34):
Uh uh most of most of our non-perishable like
long-shelf storage supplies forthe apocalypse could only make
could only make chili.
Or soup.
Yeah.
Chili.
Make a good veggie soup, a goodlentil veggie soup.
If you know, if you don't addthe taco seasoning, it's soup.
If you do, it's chili.

(06:55):
And that's that's our entireapocalypse plan is to just sit
down here in the bunker and eatchili.

SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Yeah.
And then uh we've got all like atuna, a tuna theme happening.
Green beans, chili, pasta, andtuna anything.
I don't know what those thingslike together.

SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Yeah, I think that kind of makes the tuna
casserole.

SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
Yeah, and then last but not least, jellied cranberry
sounds good.
Yeah, the the kind that comes inthe can.
Yeah, but shaped like the canwith red beans and rice.
And I I feel like this is one ofthose ones that sounds kind of
gross, but maybe it would bereally I love red beans and
rice.

SPEAKER_03 (07:26):
Yeah.
Um, as somebody who has recentlymixed cranberry sauce and
stuffing, um, because yesterdaywas uh what we are referring to
as giving wean.

SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:37):
Um, that's what we celebrate is giving wean.
Uh, yeah, it was an excellentcombination.
So I could see how that wouldalso be comparable.
I don't know what to say with agiving wean.

SPEAKER_00 (07:49):
Short answer.
Um I call it the day I wished alot of people happy yummy food
day that was established tocreate a false narrative about
this country and is actuallyabout the mass genocide of
Indigenous Peoples Day.
Yeah.
That like, I, you know,sometimes being ignorant and
white, like it it was reallynice.

(08:10):
I'm gonna be honest.
Yeah.
Um obviously, obviously, I thinkit's better that we know.
Um, but it feels a little bitlike everybody's around you
walking around being like, thisis a great day.
And I'm like, um, um no, it'snot about to ruin your day.

SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
Here's the history.
I remember learning about all ofthat, like in grade school, you
know, like, oh, the the NativeAmericans came and they had a
big feast and they were friends.
And I I knew what happenedafter, because you know, I
watched Westerns.
I knew that it didn't go wellafter that.
And I'm just like, how long werethey friends?

SPEAKER_00 (09:24):
Uh, not very long, and that was after the diseases
from Europeans like wiped out ahuge number of the Wampanoag.

SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (09:30):
And uh they were, yeah, they decided to help some
folks out, and then those folksdecided to mass murder them and
and keep their scalps.

SPEAKER_03 (09:39):
Yeah, and uh yeah, yeah.
I'm like, I I I love that you'retrying to sell me on this, like
they were friends thing, butlike a year later they were
killing each other.

SPEAKER_00 (09:47):
So do you know when the myth was really started and
like more, I don't know whatstarted, but like really
established in American history?
Can you take a guess?
Oh, it's gotta be really recent.

SPEAKER_03 (09:56):
I'm gonna say 1896.

SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
I don't know the exact date, but I know Abraham
Lincoln helped to solidify itbecause we needed a national
myth to make us all feel betterafter fighting with each other
about the other form of genocidethat was happening through uh
the enslavement of Africanpeoples who are brought over
against their will.
So we were like, you know what?
Let's take another horriblething that we continue to do in

(10:21):
this country to like makeeverybody feel more okay about
the war we just fought againsteach other.
Let's just let's let's whitewashit and make our feels like
literally, because it's not foranybody else, really.
Like it was, yeah, it's it'swhite nationalism essentially.
So um this episode is not aboutthe history of Thanksgiving, but
I highly recommend if you don'tknow a lot about it and you're

(10:43):
like, whoa, these people aresuper weird and left wing, just
go just read about it.
There's a great book by RoxanneDunbar Ortiz called An
Indigenous People's History ofthe United States.
You'll get all the informationyou need there.
Yeah, read that book.
Yeah.
Uh one might say there's zombiesin it called white people.

SPEAKER_03 (11:01):
Yeah, so it's so it's a zombie book.
Yeah, basically.

SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaking of other things thathappen this time of year, we all
know that everybody'sfrantically buying stuff for
their loved ones.

SPEAKER_03 (11:11):
Yeah.
Um, today is is Black Friday.

SPEAKER_00 (11:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (11:16):
Um, I was gonna go to the store and get wood
pellets for our stove, and thenI pulled into the parking lot
and I was like, hell no, notdoing that.
And uh also I kind of forgotthat.
Um we're kind of like on athing.

SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
A a boycott?
A boycott.

SPEAKER_03 (11:33):
That's the word I was looking for.

SPEAKER_00 (11:34):
Um the boycott doesn't include things that are
required to live.

SPEAKER_03 (11:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
You know, like if you need to get food, you get
food.
If you need to get fuel to keepour house warm so we don't
freeze, which is pellets.
No, we freeze, Leah.

SPEAKER_03 (11:46):
That's how we make the corporations pay by our own
suffering.

SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
But the the real the real test is like withstanding
the bombardment of ads forthings that normally cost a lot
more and suddenly don't.
Um, I have gotten so many textstoday from things I've signed up
for to get 20% off at some pointin my life.
And it it's hard to, it's reallyhard to say no, we are trained,
I am trained to consume.
Um, so what we did as anantidote for this for ourselves

(12:12):
and hopefully for some of you iswe're creating a holiday guide
this week to support zombieauthors in the age of AI and
corporate overlords, becausethere's a lot of great stories
out there that are written byhumans, not AI.
Uh, and a lot of them are fromlike different subgenres.
So even if the people you loveare maybe not like zombie
apocalypse fans, the point ofthese threads we're posting on

(12:34):
Instagram is to compare umzombie books that we know and
love to comparable other genres.
So, like if you like umthrillers, read Joe Salazar's
The Dead Weight, for example.
If you like murder mysteries,read Talc by Jenna Chris Font.
So that's what we're basicallydoing.
We're gonna give you a wholelist every day with different

(12:55):
themes for your loved ones tomaybe buy for them and just for
yourself.

unknown (12:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:59):
Yeah.
Dan's just staring at mevacantly.

SPEAKER_03 (13:02):
Uh life updates, yeah.
That was unintelligible.
Life updates, Dan.
Life updates.
We have life updates.
I have a big life update.
You're gonna share today.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (13:14):
Whoa okay.

SPEAKER_03 (13:15):
I mean, I have many updates.
Everybody prepare yourself.
I am unemployed.

SPEAKER_00 (13:21):
Yay! We're a household of two unemployed
people right now.
Dan, can you insert an air hornafter that?

SPEAKER_03 (13:28):
Yeah, I'll just do an air horn.
I'm it's like just as good as asound effect, really.
Um, I'm really good at airhorns.
Uh so yeah, me being unemployedis a normal thing that happens
every single year.
I I am a seasonal worker becauseI do paving.
And when the snow falls, itmakes it hard to pave and dig

(13:50):
holes in the ground um becauseof ice and stuff.
And I am happy to take that timeoff after an entire eight months
of 14-hour days.

SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Of grinding.
Of grinding.
We were watching Furiosa.
Is that the whole thing?
What is the whole Fury Road?
Furiosa.

SPEAKER_03 (14:10):
Yeah, well, there's like a, you know, like it's it's
what's the movie called a MadMax saga.
Like Colon, a Mad Max saga.

SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
Yeah.
So picture Mad Max saga, andthere's all kinds of horrifying
things happening in very largemachines that you wouldn't want
your loved one to be in.
Yeah.
And Dan's like, yep, that wasthat that happened this summer.
It's like, that doesn't make mefeel very good about your job.

SPEAKER_03 (14:33):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm I'm watchingFuriosa, and like they're
there's people like crawlingaround underneath trucks where
the while they're driving andand battling and throwing uh you
know like fireballs at eachother.
Things are breaking.
People are getting sucked underwheels.
There's explosions, chains, anduh, and I'm like, yeah, it's
kind of like work.

SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
That's that feels like a normal day to me.
Great movie though.
I'm not usually a huge fan ofaction, but I really enjoyed
that film.

SPEAKER_03 (14:59):
Yeah, it was it was a great time.
If you haven't watched Furiosa,and you especially if you liked
uh any of the Mad Max movies,it's it really gives a lot of um
a lot of that world-buildingcontext to all of the things.
Like that's that's what I foundreally satisfying about is just
seeing all of these like littleum these uh these fortresses and

(15:20):
the warlords battling amongsteach other.
Um I have I have other good newstoo.
Um I don't know.
I it's it's something that Idon't want to go into great
detail about, but I got reallygood news from the VA about my
disability claim, uh, which willmake life really good for me um

(15:41):
going forward.
And uh and yeah, that's all I'mgonna say about that.
Things are good.

SPEAKER_00 (15:45):
Things are going going my way.
It's acknowledging verysignificant harms that were done
to you in your time in the USmilitary, in the army.

SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Yeah, if if you've seen me walk, uh, you know, I
ain't right.

SPEAKER_00 (16:02):
I mean, you see, either of us walk.
Uh Leah, do you have anyupdates?
Yeah, I did my first full-oncraft fair where nobody came.
It was poorly attended, and allof the vendors left early, so I
did too.
I did cover my costs and I didget some practice at like set
up.
Um, and we've got our next oneuh coming up, so that hopefully

(16:23):
will do better.
I've got a better idea aroundwhat really sells, which
unsurprisingly in rural Vermontis drawings of farm animals.
Go figure.
It was interesting.
The younger people, which thereare not many in the state, liked
the mandalas that I create andand liked my mushroom creations,
but um the majority of thepeople I'm selling to are 15

(16:43):
over, and they sure love analpaca drawing.
That was like the number one.
They just were like, Yes, I wantthis alpaca, and I was like,
Great.

SPEAKER_03 (16:50):
You just you just gotta become the uh the alpaca
art person now.
Like you're just you're justgonna churn it out like a
factory.

SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
The two chickens together did well, you know.
Yeah, people love chickens.
Everybody loves the sheep FinleyForesocks.
Um, somebody asked me if I had ahorse, and I realized I only had
one horse drawing, and I waslike, whoa, this is I need to
draw more horses.
So, anyways, hoping to do wellin the next one.
But it's been fun to explore,and I feel like it's the kind of
thing that I'll be ready for uhwhen it's the summertime to do

(17:20):
more serious fairs.
I also met some amazing peoplewho may be listening to this
because one of them startedlistening to it.
It was so slow, y'all, that theywere like put it, they put it in
their earbuds and startedlistening to our podcast.
And then yells is like, hey, hasDan finished his book yet?
And then we were like, no.
Uh so that was really sweet.

(17:40):
Um, but also indicates the levelof no, like the most things that
were bought by from me werebought by other vendors.
Um, but it was good.
And uh job interviews, I'll justsay I've been doing a few.
So I feel like maybe somethingis coming down the pike for me
in January, realistically.
I don't know how much job hiringstuff's gonna happen in

(18:00):
December.
I feel like the first two tothree weeks max, uh, there might
be some movement.
So we'll see.

SPEAKER_03 (18:05):
I mean, they might they might be uh looking to have
your start date be like January1st.
Ew.
I want the first week of it.

SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
I agree, but like I mean, I'll take it if I if it's
a must, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 (18:18):
The strategic thinking is the beginning of the
year.
So start off a fresh, freshyear.

SPEAKER_00 (18:23):
Yeah, that'd be nice.
I'm really enjoying beingunemployed with Dan.
Yeah.
It's been pretty great.
Yeah.
So let's let's get into it.
Let's talk about what your rolewould be in the zombie
apocalypse.
Yeah.
What's my role, Leah?
We're gonna find out.
I actually started to make aquiz, but I didn't get that far.
If y'all are interested, I cangive you a quiz and you can use
it to it's like a BuzzFeed quiz,but for me.

(18:44):
Yeah, it's about which of theseroles do you think that you are
would play in the zombieapocalypse?
We are exploring Deepa Iyer'ssocial change ecosystem
framework, um, but through theworld of the Walking Dead,
because the Walking Dead, Ithink, is one of the most
well-known zombie worlds.
Yeah.
And so we're gonna look at somedifferent archetypes that are
part of this social changeecosystem framework of different

(19:05):
kinds of people that we're goingto need in the zombie
apocalypse, our communitiesright now.
Uh, and basically the frameworkmaps out 10 different roles
people play in ensuringcollective survival and justice
from weavers.
I don't mean just basketweavers, uh, to builders, to
storytellers, healers, anddisruptors.
Oh, I want to be a basketweaver.
I mean, you could be.

SPEAKER_03 (19:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:26):
Yeah.
Uh, and I think the point hereto remember is that every single
one of these roles we're goingto talk about is essential.
Uh, it's essential in movements,it's essential in community, it
will definitely be essential ina zombie apocalypse.
And I know for myself, you know,sometimes I wish I was more of a
disruptor.
Um, like get out there and putmy physical body on the line,
but for a variety of reasons,that hasn't been an option for

(19:48):
me.
Um, mostly physically lately.
Like going to a protest is harduh for me to just stand.
Um, so, anyways, that'ssometimes like I want to do
that, but that's not necessarilymy role, but I can support other
people doing that.
So you want to get into it, Dan?
Yeah, let's get into it.
I um what what are we what isit?
Well, let's think about it.

(20:08):
If walkers showed up tomorrow,what role would you play?
Would you be the one keepingpeople calm?
Would you be building out thecamp and the walls to block them
out?
Would you be helping keep thehope alive?
Would you be taking a riskystand when everyone else is
hesitating?
We want to hear from you.
Send us a voicemail,614-699-30006.

(20:29):
I want a voicemail.
I love them so much.
Tell us which archetype youthink you are in the uprising
and why.
Let's get into them.

SPEAKER_03 (20:37):
And you know, I think uh I think a lot of people
are gonna find that they they'vegot a certain percentage of
themselves in like all of thesethings.
Yeah.
But the key is to like point outthe place where you really, you
really uh sparkle.

SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
Yeah, like any per if this was a personality test,
you know, you're some mix ofmany of these things.
But it's like which ones do youthink are dominant in your life
right now?
But also maybe like which onesdo you wish you were doing more,
or you feel like, hey, I couldbe good at that, and I just
haven't given myself the chanceto.
Yeah.
But I want to.

SPEAKER_03 (21:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:07):
Uh so let's start with the first archetype, which
is the weaver.
The basket weaver?
No.
This is the definition fromDeepa Iyer.
We see the through lines ofconnectivity between people,
places, organizations, ideas,and movements.
So that role in the zombieapocalypse is about bringing
survivor groups together,negotiating alliances,

(21:27):
maintaining trust, helpingcommunities collaborate rather
than isolate.
So a kind of a diplomat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like who do you who comes tomind for you when you think
about that kind of person whobrings people together in the
zombie apocalypse?

SPEAKER_03 (21:41):
Oh, um.
Maggie for me.
I was just gonna say that, but Icould the I kept on thinking
Molly.
Our friend Molly.
Hi Molly.
Yeah, well, also, also ourfriend Molly.
But um, yeah, I mean that'sthat's what Rick saw in in
Maggie was that uh that she hadshe had like something special

(22:02):
in her that made her a greatleader, and it was it was her
ability to to reach across dialsand bring people together.

SPEAKER_00 (22:10):
Yeah, she was able to unite the hilltop, uh, the
kingdom, and what did they callit?
Oh, Alexandria.
So two, three communities.
Yeah.
Two, three communities.
Two, three.
Yeah.
Six, seven.
Wah wah.
Good one, Leah.
Great joke.
Um, but yeah, do you findyourself being the bridge
builder?
Are you really good at helpingresolve and mediate conflict

(22:30):
between people?
Yeah.
It's not always an easy role,but it's an important one.

SPEAKER_03 (22:34):
You've also got a an uh character example here of uh
Glenn, which I didn't think ofimmediately, but I think I think
it's accurate.
Um, because Glenn Glenn was likea bridge builder in a way.
You didn't see it as much, buthe was the person that found
Rick and brought Rick into theircamp.
That's true.
He went out of his way to do it.
He helped build the bridge withthe farm.

SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Yeah.
That's uh and that's why we haveMaggie in the later seasons.
Yeah.
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (23:07):
Yeah, and you know, I think I think you're gonna
find a a whole bunch of examplesof of this type of character.
Um, and that's what that's whatI love about the The Walking
Dead is that like certainseasons, anyways, up to a
certain number, they they put alot of thought into what types
of roles people are playing.

SPEAKER_00 (23:24):
Yeah, and they make it more mundane if you're like,
I don't know if I'm doing this,because this these feel like big
examples.
Are you the kind of person thatlike meets a person and thinks,
oh my gosh, I should introducethem to this other person, they
would love each other or theycould collaborate.
That's a weaver.
When you see the connections andyou see the potential of what
can happen when more people worktogether than alone, and then

(23:45):
you help facilitate thoserelationships.
That's what it is.

SPEAKER_03 (23:47):
So I don't think I'm a weaver.
Like when you when you look atthe um the visual graph that
like has multiple points and haslike the little the little uh
graphic that shows like how muchyou are on one side and the
other.
Yeah.
Uh mine is dead center in themiddle for weaver.
So you're not really a weaver.
You're kind of no, I I avoidtalking to people.

(24:12):
Uh yeah, that's it's not me.
That's not me.

SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Yeah.
I think I'm a little bit more ofa weaver.
Definitely.
I think I would put myself likethat would be one of my stronger
ones.
I don't think it's my strongestbecause I do have deep introvert
vibes and things like going toconferences, I hate them because
I hate like I really appreciateuh and maybe the facilitator in
me is a bit of a weaver becauselike if I can orchestrate an
event where there's like apurpose and a oh a thing that

(24:38):
you're doing together, that'snot so scary.
But like being put in a roomwith a bunch of people to just
talk to, please, God no.
Don't make me do it.
Yeah, I can, but I don't wantto.

SPEAKER_03 (24:46):
But I do think that you have a special, a special
knack, but especially I don'thave.

SPEAKER_00 (24:51):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm definitely theconnector in our community
between you and I.
Yeah.
Um, I do all of the emotionallabor with our neighbors.
Yeah.
Uh okay, next one.
I do the aggression with ourneighbors.
All right.
So low for Dan on the Weaver, mesort of moderate.
Experimenter.
Okay.
This one immediately sounds tome like you.
Curious if anybody elselistening feels like they're an

(25:13):
experimenter.
We innovate, we pioneer andinvent, we take risks and course
correct as needed.
So in the zombie apocalypse,that could be things like
improvising tools, weapons,medicines, farming solutions,
communication systems, justtrying different kinds of
survival strategies.

SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
Yeah, I think this definitely rings pretty true for
me.
Um, yeah, it in in the past, youknow, I've I've done a lot of uh
I did a lot of electronics stuffin the army that I can't talk
about.
Um uh I built a race car.
Um, I do a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
You also just like to experiment, I think,
specifically.
Like I like for example, I knowsome one of these episodes back
there we talked about the pooldebacle where Dan did a blow-up
pool on the side of a hill, andI said, like, science, Dan, this
isn't gonna go well.
All the water is gonna be on oneside and it's gonna collapse.
And Dan was like, but I gottaknow.
That's like maybe the downsideof the experimenter sometimes is

(26:08):
like you know, the that like yougotta blow the thing up to know
it will blow up.

SPEAKER_03 (26:14):
Yeah.
I don't I don't know if thatnecessarily is going to help in
the apocalypse, but you knowwhat?
I'm not afraid to fail.
Yeah.
That that's that's one thing.
I'm I'm not afraid to dosomething the wrong way just to
know that it's definitely notthe way you're supposed to.

SPEAKER_00 (26:30):
And you also course correct as needed because when
that happened, I saw you go andstart shoveling dirt on the
lower part of the hill to tryand make it look helps it start,
you know, a little bit.
But I think the classiccharacter in Walking Dead, who
we're gonna have a wholeconversation about with Jack
Callahan in a couple of weeks,the author of Zombie Nerd and
the Half Term Harrowing in theupcoming Weird Water, is Eugene

(26:52):
Porter, one of your favoritecharacters.

SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
So what does Eugene do that exemplifies an
experimenter type?

SPEAKER_03 (26:59):
Eugene is is a big brain nerd.
Um who likes to tinker.
Yeah.
I mean, he's he's he is theapocalypse version of Bill Nye
the Science Guy, or Mr.
Wizard, if you're old enough toknow who that is.
Um he's he's got a wealth ofscientific and engineering

(27:21):
knowledge in his brain.
And who knows why?
We don't actually know whatEugene did.
Um actually, I think he saidthat he was a science, uh high
school science teacher, but likehis he has an obsession for uh
gadgets and electronics andscience and yeah, he gets the
radio up and working, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:41):
And talks to other communities, which is also a
weaver thing.
He sort of accidentally fellinto being a weaver in that
moment.

SPEAKER_03 (27:46):
Yeah, he's not a very good weaver though.
Um but he can accidentally do itfrom time to time.

SPEAKER_00 (27:53):
Yes, but yeah, he figured out that he was making
bullets.

SPEAKER_01 (27:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (27:57):
Um, you know, he was showing off to the women uh
Negan's harem, for lack of abetter term, in the sanctuary by
like making stuff blow up forthem.

SPEAKER_03 (28:07):
My favorite thing is he had a he had a uh a a nitrile
glove that was that he filledwith hydrogen and um and he
needed to light a candle becausehe was gonna make it pop and
blow up.
And he says, I'm gonna lightthis candle.
And they're like, Whoa, that'sso cool! And he's like, No,
really, I have to light thiscandle.

SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
Um next one, number three, frontline responder.

SPEAKER_01 (28:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:33):
We address if you're a frontline responder, it means
that you address communitycrises by marshalling and
organizing resources, networks,and messages.
You lead the defense duringattacks, coordinate evacuations,
ensure everyone knows where togo and what to do during
emergencies.

SPEAKER_03 (28:47):
Yeah, I think this is the one that comes to me like
instinctually overintellectually.
Um because I I do I do sometimeshave a part of me that comes
out, um, usually in the time ofof crisis.
Uh a lot like our examplecharacter here, um, Abraham, who

(29:09):
just like you're you'recompelled to act.
Whether or not you want yourfeet to move or not, they start
moving.
Um, and that's uh so that'sdefinitely me.
Like, I don't think it's a goodidea to be the frontline
responder if you want to survivea zombie apocalypse.
But I I have no doubt thatzombies are walking up the
driveway.

(29:29):
I'm gonna be running out withwhatever I can grab in my hand
to bash their heads in.

SPEAKER_00 (29:34):
I'm gonna be mad at you and trying to make you come
inside and hide.
But it is true.
Like, without getting intodetails, you have uh helped
people in your family with likevery serious crisis, and you
were the one that wasessentially holding it together
and making sure everybody hadwhat they needed.

SPEAKER_01 (29:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:49):
Um, so the example here is your other one of your
favorite characters.
So no surprise that theseback-to-back that you really
relate to are also some of yourfavorite characters in The
Walking Dead.

SPEAKER_03 (29:58):
Yeah.
Well, I I relate to them themost.
Um, you know, I the the bestexample I can think of for this
frontline responder, um Abraham,is this uh scene and I think
season six of The Walking Dead.
And he goes out, he's he's justbecome part of Alexandria.
He's having a hard time findinghis place where he fit.

(30:19):
So he goes and volunteers to bepart of this crew that's going
to try to get these uh steelplates to go reinforce part of
the wall.
They're they're gonna continuebuilding the wall outwards of
Alexandria, and they have thesebig steel plates.
And um zombies show up, andthese people who have lived
inside the walls for such a longtime kind of they all panic and

(30:39):
scatter.
And he's the one that runsforwards towards the zombies to
save somebody that got leftbehind because they, I don't
know, twisted their ankle orsomething.
And uh and from that point theysaw how much of a leader he was
in that specific in thatspecific way, and they they
wanted him to be the foreman.

SPEAKER_01 (31:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
Because not only could he respond as a could not
only was he capable of theconstruction aspect of the job,
but like he was also able togive commands to people who were
in uh fight or flight mode andflighting, yeah, and got them to
turn around and actually fightthe zombies with him while he

(31:22):
was he was taking a point andand taking on both the the
larger amount of those zombies.

SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
Yeah, you know who I think we personally know that's
a bit of a frontline responder?
It's an author they visitedrecently.
Alice B.
Sullivan, yeah.
You know, I'll never forget.
Oh us having a lovely fire and abunch of sparks exploding like
unexpectedly, and our old dogNero, who sadly passed away
recently, like walking towardsit for whatever reason.

(31:51):
And Alice just without any carefor her own life, like literally
shielded Nero.
Yeah.
That's a frontline responderimpulse, if I ever saw one.

SPEAKER_01 (32:01):
Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 (32:02):
Yeah.
Um, number four, visionary.
We imagine and generate ourboldest possibilities, hopes,
and dreams, and remind others ofour direction.
This is the person who keeps thehope alive, who makes the point
of like, this is why we're doingthis in the first place, and
that things can be better, andlet's work towards that.
Um, you help people remember whysurvival matters.

(32:23):
You guide long-term communitydirection, you inspire
collective purpose.

SPEAKER_03 (32:27):
Yeah, I think I'm a bit of that.
Yeah.
Um, you know, that's that's kindof my my thesis to the to the
zombie apocalypse.
It's like, look, yeah, thezombies and everything, and
being hungry and not havingelectricity and having the, you
know, shit in a bucket.
That sucks.
But you know what?
We're good, we're we're workingtogether towards a better future

(32:48):
without the zombies.

SPEAKER_00 (32:50):
This reminds me, we still haven't had our episode
about pooping in the apocalypse.
We'll uh call Sarah LyonsFleming because she she
definitely wants to talk aboutthat.
She does.
Yeah.
Um, yeah, this is the person Ithink you do have some visionary
in you.
I think a lot of the zombieauthor friends that we know have
some visionary vibes.
Yeah.
The storytellers.
Yeah, the storytellers, but alsothe people who are like, hey,

(33:12):
this is a better way.
So um I'm trying to think of alike a more mundane version, but
like somebody who's like outthere, maybe you wanted to
create uh a tool library.
And like you get people excitedabout doing that.

unknown (33:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
And then you help create it.
I think like having a vision, acollective vision, really
matters, especially in this timewhen it's really easy to just be
mad at the way that all thethings suck, and it's really
hard to imagine anythingdifferent from what we have.
And I really feel like the onlyway we're gonna get out of this
capitalist hellscape that we'rea part of, um, this racial
capitalist hellscape that we'rea part of, is to re like get to

(33:48):
the root of it and imagine adifferent way of living, which
is to destroy capitalism,basically.

SPEAKER_03 (33:52):
So does this mean that like, because what I'm what
I'm seeing is that like thevisionary is like the hype man?
And does that mean that flavorflav is a visionary?

SPEAKER_00 (34:04):
Um, it's not just the hype man, that's kind of
like a cheerleader role, which Idon't know if there's one that's
sort of like that.
We'll get there.
Um, it's more like they'reproviding a vision of what can
be and rallying people behindit.
So I don't know if flavor flavorwas like doing that or if he was
just basically the next personthat was like, yeah, that's a
good idea.

SPEAKER_03 (34:22):
The good idea guy.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:23):
Yeah.
The supporter.
Yeah.
But the visionary is like KingEzekiel, who like absolutely
decided to make a fantasy worldcalled the kingdom, where he was
the king and had a pet tiger.
If you've not seen this part ofuh The Walking Dead, this is why
you should.

SPEAKER_01 (34:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (34:36):
There's a tiger.
A lot of people have criticizedthat part of this story, but I
think it actually makes sense.
Like he makes the kingdom, andthe their whole process for
getting through the zombieapocalypse is just by imagining
the world to be something alittle bit more magical.

SPEAKER_01 (34:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (34:54):
Where they have a king and the king has a tiger,
and everyone kind of like theythey they refer to themselves as
knights um and warriors, andthey they you know, they wear
like motocross gear, but they'relike, This is our armor.
Yeah.
Sure, this is for a BMX bike.
Yeah.
You know, this is someone that Iso that some somebody bought

(35:16):
this originally so that theycould fall off their bike and
not get hurt.
But I'm gonna use it to fightzombies, and it's called armor,
and I'm a knight, and that's theking, and that's the king's
tiger over there.

SPEAKER_00 (35:25):
Do you think Rick's a visionary?
Yeah.
At certain points, he certainlyloses hope.
Yeah.
At different points.
But I think, like, oh, you knowwho else is a visionary?
Was uh the original builder ofAlexandria.
That's a very classic visionary.
Yeah.
What was her name?

SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
Uh Diana.

SPEAKER_00 (35:40):
Diana, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:41):
She was also the weaver.

SPEAKER_00 (35:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:43):
Um, not a frontline responder.

SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
No.
And again, you don't have to begood.
This is the reminder, right?
Of why we need each other.
You you are likely not going tobe good at all of these things.

SPEAKER_03 (35:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:53):
But somebody else will be.
That's what's magical.

SPEAKER_03 (35:55):
Yeah.
And if you team up with these 10people, you'll you'll be doing
good.

SPEAKER_00 (35:59):
But yeah, some politicians can be really
visionary, and they're the onesthat people are inspired to
follow.
And Diana was a, I forget if shewas a governor or what I think
she was a senator.
A senator.

SPEAKER_03 (36:10):
Or a congressperson.

SPEAKER_00 (36:11):
And so she was able to use that same thing of saying
we could build something here.

SPEAKER_03 (36:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
And let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 (36:15):
I gotta also give credit to the governor.

SPEAKER_00 (36:18):
Yeah.
And Negan.
Also visionaries, yeah.
Yeah.
What they were envisioning.
Um, it's a good example of howthese could be for good or bad.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (36:27):
Well, the governor was gave a vision of something
that was good.
It's just that he was doingthings behind the scenes that
were bad.

SPEAKER_00 (36:36):
Sure sounds like a lot of politicians.
It sure does.
Yeah.
Um, I think that's a really goodpoint.
I mean, you know who else arevisionaries?
Is cult leaders.

SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
It's a fair point.
Yeah.
So we hope that those of you arelistening who are visionaries
are not that kind of visionary,you know, helping out create a
better world.
Uh, this archetype is the onethat I feel like is solidly one
of my stronger ones, which is abuilder.
Yeah, because you're Bob theBuilder.
Bob the Builder.
We develop, organize, andimplement ideas, practices,
people, and resources in serviceof a collective vision.

(37:08):
Uh, this definitely feels likeme because I get excited when I
hear other people's vision.
And like I think most of myvision of the world that I'm
excited about creating is comehas come from other visionaries
that I've listened to and beenlike, yes, I'm in, but I like to
like make the systems and theprocesses and the things that
actually make it happen.
Like, I'm the person that if yougive me a wild idea, if you

(37:30):
want, we can sit down togetherand make a five-point action
plan to get it done andincorporate some
self-accountability processes soyou don't just procrastinate and
not do it.
That's who I am.
Yeah.
I I did that once.
Yeah, but you still didn't doit.
I didn't do it.

SPEAKER_03 (37:43):
I procrastinated.

SPEAKER_00 (37:45):
Well, I can't, I'm not a magician.
Um, roll in the zombieapocalypse.
You'd be the person that's likecreating the settlement
settlement.
Uh, you're organizing guardshifts, food systems, governance
rules, creating shared routines.
Like, I'd absolutely be theperson that's like helping
create um systems that make thecommunity work.

SPEAKER_03 (38:04):
Yeah, I'm better at showing up for guard shift, but
like, you know, if there wasn'tanybody else, I could, I could
do those things.

SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
Yeah, you need to be assigned.

SPEAKER_03 (38:14):
But um, but I'm better at just showing up.
That's kind of how I am at workis like they they keep on
wanting me to take a moreleadership role because I've
been there longer than almosteveryone.
And um, and I'm like, no, I justwant to drive the truck.
I don't want thisresponsibility.
Yeah.
Give give that responsibility toother people who are better at

(38:34):
it.

SPEAKER_00 (38:35):
I think that's really good self-awareness.
Yeah.
Um, I have Rick Grimes as abuilder example, actually, here,
but I'm wondering if there'sbetter ones.
Um again, I think that um Dianafrom Alexandria is closer.

SPEAKER_03 (38:49):
You know who was who was good at all of these things,
like um, you know, uhimplementing ideas and practices
and collective vision, issomebody that doesn't get
mentioned very often in theWalking Dead universe, which is
Dale.

SPEAKER_01 (39:05):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:06):
Dale was kind of like the original leader.
Like even after Rick showed up,he was kind of still he was kind
of still the leader, even thoughRick was the leader.

SPEAKER_00 (39:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:16):
Um, and uh he he was wise and he had a lot of you
know, he was he was also likethat diplomat as well.
He was he was bridging gaps, hewas uh making relationships with
people.

SPEAKER_00 (39:29):
Yeah.
I think that the builder can geta bad rap because sometimes it's
very similar to being a manager.
Again, these could be good, youcould be good at this or bad at
this.
The bad version of this is youjust make people do everything
that you want them to do, andyou tell them you go do this and
you go do that.
The good version is you workwith people to figure out what
they're good at, and then youcollectively create uh systems
together.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (39:49):
You see this in Rick Grimes um in the later seasons a
lot more.
Like you see him um identifyingMaggie's strengths and
convincing her to go to thehilltop and like try to help
them.

SPEAKER_01 (40:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (40:05):
Um, he sees he sees the the potential in Daryl and
you know, season nine, I want tosay it is he's he's pushing
Daryl to be a leader at thesanctuary, um, which Daryl
hates.
He just wants to ride hismotorcycle and live in the
woods.
But uh but but Rick knew that hethat he had that he had

(40:27):
leadership qualities.

SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
Absolutely.
You ready for number six?
I'm ready.
Caregiver.
We nurture and nourish thepeople around us by creating and
sustaining a community of care,joy, and connection.
So this is about making surepeople rest, eat, grieve, stay
connected to hope, tend tointerpersonal conflict and
morale.
So this isn't not a a healer inthe physical sense.
This is someone who just you'rehaving a bad day.
Like imagine the person, okay,you've had one of the shittiest

(40:51):
days.
Who are you gonna reach out to?
That's probably somebody who hasstrong caregiver skills.
I'm gonna reach out to Leah.
Oh.
I do think I have this one.
Yeah, definitely.
Uh, but I do have an urge tonurture and nourish.
Um, I love making sure peopleare taking care of themselves
and are okay and happy.
Um, and I'm gonna make sureeverybody gets a bowl of soup at
the end of the day.

(41:12):
Yeah.
Uh Beth.

SPEAKER_03 (41:14):
Oh yeah, that's her name.
Maggie's Maggie's sister, Beth.
Who dies later.

SPEAKER_01 (41:19):
Who dies later.

SPEAKER_03 (41:20):
Um we don't see a whole lot from her until later
when things don't go well forher.
But um, but the times that we dosee her, she is uh she's
babysitting Judith.
Um, she's singing around thecampfire.
Um, she's comforting people andencouraging them.

SPEAKER_00 (41:39):
Yeah, like Daryl specify especially.

SPEAKER_03 (41:41):
Yeah.
And um and yeah, she'sdefinitely the the care the the
caregiver.
She's giving care.
Um, you also see this fromHerschel.
Um Glenn is also a caregiver, Ithink.
Yeah, say more about that.
Glenn's always going uh puttinghimself in danger for other
people.
Like when people need something,he's like the the go-getter.

SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
Is that more of a frontline responder?

SPEAKER_03 (42:04):
A little bit.
It's like a combination ofthings, but the reason like he's
doing it for someone.
So like even if he's going on arun, like um when Laurie was
like, I need abortion pills.

SPEAKER_00 (42:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (42:17):
Um, you know, he's keeping that a secret and it's
gonna take him off mission andit does cause a problem.
Um but he's doing that forLaurie because he sees that Lori
is in need of something.
Um also you see that uh later onwhen he is with I want to say
his name's Nick, um uh one ofthese shitheads from uh from

(42:41):
Alexandria um who had greasyhair.
And got somebody killed becausehe didn't he he panicked, he
didn't know what he was doing,he fucked everything up.
He was he was a fuck up and gotNoah killed.
Um and Noah could have beensaved.
But because he was too afraidand because he was too

(43:02):
inexperienced and uh everything,he he ended up getting that guy
killed.
And uh Glen continued uh to uhwant to save this person to
because he saw he saw what thisguy was going through, and even
though he knew that he couldn'ttrust him and that he needed uh
to be punished for the thingsthat he did that caused people

(43:24):
to be injured or killed, um, hedidn't want him to die.

SPEAKER_01 (43:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
And he he went out of his way to to make sure that
he was okay enough to be able toget back and to to get through.
He was great.

SPEAKER_00 (43:37):
I really wish they never killed Glenn.
But everybody wishes they neverkilled Glenn.
Yeah.
Uh the next one is a healer.
We recognize and tend thegenerational and current traumas
caused by oppressive systems,institutions, policies, and
practices.
So in the zombie apocalypse,that could look like providing
medical care, uh, leadingrituals, counseling, uh, tending

(43:58):
to both physical and invisiblewounds of loss and violence.
So an obvious one as a healer isHerschel Green.
He's a doctor.
Also, she's a veterinarian,right?
Who then ends up having tobecome a doctor.
Herschel?
No.
Uh many seasons later inAlexandria, they kill her too,
which upsets me.
Oh.
They're like the only lesbiancouple.
Yeah, I forget her name.

(44:19):
She's an amazing actor.
Yeah.
Can't remember her name.

SPEAKER_03 (44:22):
Um we'll we'll get back to that in a later episode,
and we'll just say we'll justblurt it out in the middle of
some episode.

SPEAKER_00 (44:28):
Some other episode.
Anyways, she is a healer and shehas to stretch herself because
she's, I think, only a vet.
And then is like, well, guessI'm learning how to do this with
people now.
I think she was a psychologist.

SPEAKER_03 (44:40):
Is that what it was?
She was something very unrelatedto a medical doctor.
Yeah, but she um Herschel was aveterinarian.

SPEAKER_00 (44:46):
Herschel was a veterinarian.
A large animal vet.
Right.
Okay.
So both of them were sort oflike uh peripheral, but had that
healer instinct and so stretchedthemselves to believe that.
The the man that what's the man,what's the kid's name again?
Carl.
Carl, yeah.
The man, the man that Carl findsin the woods and brings back as
a doctor.
Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (45:07):
Um, whose name I also forget.

SPEAKER_00 (45:09):
Yeah.
Uh, but there's a lot ofexamples of the like the classic
physical healer, not hard tothink about.
Like, are you a nurse, a doctor?
Um, do you have background?
Like again, bringing up shoutout to Alice for their ability
to do um therapy, physicaltherapy with horses.
I a lot of that'll betransferable to humans.
Yeah.
Um, and I can absolutely seethem doing those things in

(45:30):
zombie apostles.

SPEAKER_03 (45:31):
Alice also just has a wealth of medical knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 (45:33):
Yeah.
Super useful human being, beyondjust being a great one.
Uh, on the other side of it, wehave Judith Grimes, who is also
a healer and somebody who Ithink is actively trying to mend
trauma and um guide a betterpath forward.
You know, she reminds survivorsto choose compassion.

SPEAKER_01 (45:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Over and over again.
Negan being the most obviousexample of that.

SPEAKER_03 (45:56):
And you know who the who who was the guiding force
for Judith to want people tochoose compassion?

SPEAKER_01 (46:03):
Who?

SPEAKER_03 (46:04):
Carl.
Carl's dying words were uh wereto Rick to um to forgive Negan.

SPEAKER_00 (46:12):
Oh, that gave me chills.
I didn't remember that.

SPEAKER_03 (46:15):
Yeah.
He wrote a letter.
Um, he wrote everybody lettersbecause he knew that he was
gonna die because he got bit.
Uh and and he he told he toldRick to forgive Negan, and
that's the reason why Negan isalive after season eight,
spoiler alert.
Um and Rick adopts that as well.
Like he that also becomes partof his mantra, even though like

(46:39):
he's still very much, you know,first responding out there and
doing what what needs to bedone.
He's he's trying to follow hisson's words and trying to create
a more compassionate world.

SPEAKER_00 (46:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's important toremember that you can be a
healer by just thinking abouthow to like mend those traumas
and those rifts that happen.
Um, and that Judith is, I think,definitely an example of like a
beacon of hope and the future,and like that is necessary to
directly address those traumasinstead of just bury them under
the surface if you ever want toactually heal.

SPEAKER_03 (47:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:12):
As a society.

SPEAKER_03 (47:13):
Yeah, Judith was also a weaver because she was
bringing people in.

SPEAKER_00 (47:17):
Yeah.
She's also a visionary.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Really cool.
Cool little kid.
It's probably an adult now.
It's probably whoever playedher.
Uh, this is our eighth numbereight disruptor.

SPEAKER_01 (47:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:30):
We take uncomfortable and risky actions
to shake up the status quo toraise awareness and to build
power.
So this is the person who'sgoing to call out hoarding,
authoritarianism, or violenceand pushes the group to confront
injustice even when it'suncomfortable.
So Michonne is a disruptor.
Oh, absolutely.
She was absolutely not willingto just go along with the
governor and she would doanything she needed to to end

(47:51):
that injustice.

SPEAKER_03 (47:52):
Yeah.
And like her rejection ofinjustice uh was was almost an
uncontrollable element of herpersonality for a long time.
It wasn't until much later thatshe like was able to tame that
part of herself that sheactually like found herself not
rushing into problems.

SPEAKER_00 (48:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, Maggie is also a disruptor,right?
Like she's because I think thatshe's also the weaver and the
builder, and she doesn't want tohave um, she wants she's got
that visionary vibe too.
She wants a better world.
So when she's got to stand up,she's gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 (48:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:27):
Um, who was it that went back to the um seaside
community and tried to convincethem to disrupt and fight back
against Negan?

SPEAKER_03 (48:37):
Well, the whole the whole group went back.
Um Rick was Rick was giving thethe the main speech to the to to
them about fighting back.
So Rick is a disruptor for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Yeah, actually that's he consistently, and
especially in the spin-offs too,in the ones who live, he also
disrupts.
And I'll also I forget her name,um Tara.
Oh yeah, Tara from Buffy theVampire Slayer.
Yeah, Tara was um I'm joking,that's not actually the right
Tara.

SPEAKER_03 (49:05):
It's a totally different Tara.
Tara uh discovered seaside byaccident by washing up on their
shore.

SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
Tara was in the relationship with the
psychologist whose name I don'tremember, who's a great actor.
I think it started with a D.
Yeah, I'm gonna look it upbecause I feel bad.
Denise.
Denise.
I knew it started with a D.
Yeah, that was impressive, Dan.
Yeah.
So say more about Tara.

SPEAKER_03 (49:25):
Um you think she's also a disruptor?
I don't know enough about Taraoff the top of my head.
Um, I think I think she is.
She's a bit of a rebel.
Um, and she was disruptingwithin within the community.
So, like, she'd go out to tosave somebody who did something
stupid and almost fell into a abig pile of zombies.

(49:49):
Um, and Rick gave her a hardtime about it because she risked
her life and she gave him thefinger.

SPEAKER_00 (49:57):
You know who else is a disruptor?
Sasha.

SPEAKER_03 (50:00):
Sasha is a disruptor for sure.

SPEAKER_00 (50:03):
Can you tell us a story about Sasha?
Boy, there's a lot to tell aboutSasha.
Um just a disruptor story.
How about when she chooses toend her own life?

SPEAKER_03 (50:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like that that was awhole that was a whole plot to
try to just shake up Negan bypretending to go along with this
plan and then uh ending her lifein the middle of the plan so
that she would come after him asa zombie and scare the shit out
of him.

SPEAKER_00 (50:28):
Pretty badass.
Sasha's also a character I wishdidn't die, but I mean they gave
her a good death.
Yeah, they gave her a numbernine, storyteller.
Another one I feel like you'regonna resonate with, and a lot
of the authors listening,obviously, y'all are
storytellers.
We craft and share our communitystories, cultures, experiences,
histories, and possibilitiesthrough art, music, media, and
movement.

SPEAKER_03 (50:49):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, so this would bepeople, this would be uh
musicians, this would beartists, um, or just people who
are just have the gift of gaband and uh desire to uh uh pass
down information in the form ofstory.
Um which I think is a reallyimportant role to have
post-apocalypse, like um goingback to like oral traditions is

(51:15):
going to be a thing.
And uh and it takes a certainamount of skill to be able to
tell a story, um, which is whylike before before the era of
like written history and TV andradio and movies, um the uh the
storyteller was a big part ofthe community.

(51:36):
That was the person who passeddown knowledge, like hearing a
story by the campfire, that wasthat was like that was like
going to school.

SPEAKER_00 (51:44):
I mean, stories are the best way that people learn
because long before we hadwritten words, that's how we
that's how we learned is throughstory.
And it's still proven truetoday.
Like if you teach someonesomething through a story versus
like just spitting facts, thestory is what's gonna land and
what they're gonna remember.

SPEAKER_01 (51:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:00):
Um, I'm thinking about I'm again, can't remember
this guy's name.
Really lovely guy.
He was one of the ones thatwould go out and try and find
people to recruit to Alexandria.

SPEAKER_03 (52:09):
Oh, um, I also don't remember his name.

SPEAKER_00 (52:12):
This is the episode of We Don't Remember Their
Names.
Um anyways, he I think he was astoryteller in the sense that he
brought pictures of thecommunity.
Yeah.
And when he finally approachedpeople, he would he would tell
the story of the community, andhe did it in a way that allowed
them to imagine themselves thereand that it could be a safe
place.

SPEAKER_03 (52:30):
Yeah, definitely.
Um, there's also somebody thatI'm thinking of seasons nine to
eleven, um, had a a differentgroup of characters that showed
up that Judith found um runningfrom a horde.
Uh again, I don't know theirnames, but this guy uh was
obsessed with music.
Um one of one of the items thathe carried with him through the

(52:53):
entire apocalypse was uh a veryvaluable uh instrument.
Um I want to say a violin, maybesome some very expensive violin.
And his whole thing is just thathe just he just wants to make
music and like his whole role isuh to bring joy to people
through music in the apocalypsethe apocalypse.

(53:16):
And whenever he speaks, likeevery time that he has to speak
to people, it's it's a story.
Like he is he is painting apicture in people's minds of why
certain things are important,like why music is important and
why story is important.
Um you never you never just getlike a normal answer from an

(53:37):
agent.
You get a you get a a speech, atear jerking speech.

SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
My brain left.
Number 10, the last archetype, aguide.
We teach, we counsel, and adviseusing our gifts of well-earned
discernment and wisdom.
So this is the person that helpsothers choose actions aligned
with values rather than fear.
They mentor individuals throughcrises and change.

SPEAKER_03 (53:59):
Yeah, this is a really important one, and we one
that we see a lot of in TheWalking Dead, especially as Rick
himself is dealing with moralcomplexities and uh mental
health issues.
Um, he needs somebody that'sgoing to steer him in the right
way.
And uh this is kind of what Ithink the thesis of The Walking

(54:20):
Dead is, is that like every badbig bad guy that we run into,
like the governor and Negan andthe the people at Terminus, um,
they're all kind of arepresentation of who Rick could
be if he followed the wrongpath.
Yeah.
And you know, the first guidethat really has an impact on on

(54:43):
Rick um is Herschel.
Um Herschel's definitely aguide.
Dale Dale was a guide.

SPEAKER_00 (54:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:49):
Herschel was a guide.
And then later on, uh Morgan isis the is the guide when he um
discovers non-violence through aketo.

SPEAKER_00 (55:03):
And he shares that philosophy with others.
And uh I think he's aninteresting one because he has
to grapple with when it's notit's no longer the right option.

SPEAKER_01 (55:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:12):
Um that there are times where you have to defend
yourself.
Uh, but I think he's a reallygood example of um the archetype
of a wounded healer, although inthis case we're using the term
guide, which is like he he wentthrough a complete mental
breakdown.

SPEAKER_03 (55:25):
Yeah, like one that you most people wouldn't come
back for.

SPEAKER_00 (55:29):
Yeah, like just and his me his breakdown looked like
extreme violence againstanybody.

SPEAKER_01 (55:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (55:34):
Anybody and anything.
Yeah.
And so he, speaking of guides,he met his own guide who taught
him a keto and taught him theway.
And then he was able to passthat on to um uh one of the kids
from The Kingdom.
Yeah.
Another one, uh again, this isthe theme is we forget their
names because there's a lot ofcharacters and 11 seasons.

SPEAKER_01 (55:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (55:56):
If if uh if I'd thought of any of these things
before we started, um, I mighthave Googled some of their
names.

SPEAKER_00 (56:03):
Yeah, we would have been prepared.
We had a list of characterexamples.
Um, but I think, you know,there's definitely some overlap
between these.
There's lots that, you know, youcould feel like you're a few of
them.
And uh my sense is that a lot ofthe time the dominant one that
comes out is sometimes likecontextual, like in your
environment, which of these isreally needed in your community

(56:24):
that you already feel called todo or want to do or have done?
Um, and which of them just feelssort of like inherently like
you?
I think I would say that I likeDan, I would, you know what,
let's do it for each other.
That's fun.
Yeah.
I think that you, your top,let's pick each other's top
three.
Okay.
I want to do top four for you.

SPEAKER_03 (56:46):
Okay, let's do top four.

SPEAKER_00 (56:47):
Okay.
I've got my top four for you.

SPEAKER_03 (56:49):
Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 (56:50):
You're ready?
Okay.
So I'm not gonna put them in theorder of what I think is the
strongest.
I'm just gonna tell you what Ithink is your top four, and then
you tell me which one you thinkis most dominant or that you
think is gonna really come outin a zombie apocalypse.
Storyteller.

unknown (57:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (57:03):
I think who you are fundamentally is a storyteller.
Uh, you're a great storytellerjust in life, like um, sometimes
through info dumping.
But you're just like in general,Dan has always been a
storyteller, and writing is yourvehicle for that right now.
Um number two, I think you're acaregiver.

unknown (57:22):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (57:22):
I think you are naturally someone who wants to
take care of other people andmake sure they're okay.
And I benefit from that everysingle day.
Well, you know what?

SPEAKER_03 (57:32):
So does Simon.
My lack of being a weaver meansthat my caregiving extends to um
pretty much just you.

SPEAKER_00 (57:40):
You say that, but I know that if there was a person
in crisis and you saw them, youwould help them.

SPEAKER_01 (57:44):
Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 (57:45):
Um, so yeah, so storyteller, caregiver,
frontline responder, because Iknow that about you, that when
things happen that areemergencies, you're gonna be
there and you're gonna beresponding.
Yeah.
And lastly, experimenter.
Those are my top four for you.
Yeah.
Which of those four do you thinkis your highest?

SPEAKER_03 (58:01):
You know, I didn't I didn't think about um about
storyteller until I mean this isthe this is my first time going
through the list.
So uh, but I think that'saccurate.
Um which is the one that youfeel most um connected to right
now?
That's really tough.
Yeah.
Um, I guess you're right aboutbeing a caregiver.

(58:22):
I just don't really see it thatway.
But it's since you since youmentioned it, I kind of see it
now.

SPEAKER_00 (58:26):
I think the one caregiver could be really
gendered, um, which is why I'mglad you brought up Glenn as an
example of a caregiver, becauseI think that the assumption is
like we just picture uh women,because that's what we've been
in culture to do.

SPEAKER_03 (58:39):
But you are like a lot of caregivers that are men,
yeah.
In the in the uh The WalkingDead.
Like I mean, you can you canpick, you know, like four of
these for just about anyone.

SPEAKER_00 (58:50):
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, I think Caregiver is oneof your top ones.

SPEAKER_03 (58:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:54):
What about me?
Do me.

SPEAKER_03 (58:56):
Okay, I gotta see if I remember which ones I picked.
I don't have them ranked though.
Oh, I didn't either, yeah.
Um, so I'm just gonna go fromthe top to the bottom bottom,
the dub, a dub.
I think you're a weaver.

SPEAKER_00 (59:09):
Darn it.

SPEAKER_03 (59:10):
You're 100% a weaver.
Um, and yes, you are Bob, thethe builder.
Yep, that's my favorite thing todo.
Um, I also think that you're acaregiver.
Thanks.
And a disruptor.

SPEAKER_00 (59:22):
Yeah, I think I forget that I'm a disruptor
because I think of like thepeople who put their bodies on
the line, but I am the firstperson to speak up if I feel
like there's an injustice.

SPEAKER_03 (59:31):
I think you're very strongly a uh a disruptor.
Thanks.
And I'm gonna throw guide inthere too.
That's my number five.
Number five.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
You're you're definitely myguide.
You you're you're my Morgan,Leah.
I'm your moral compass.
Yeah.
When I'm when I'm Rick with mysweaty hair and I'm walking
around in the woods, and I'mjust like, I'm like, we have to

(59:55):
kill all of the bad guys.
That's when you show up withyour with your a keto stick.
And you're like, there's anotherway.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:04):
That's true.
Just yesterday there was a thingyou wanted to do, and I was
like, that sounds like funvengeance, but it's actually not
aligned with our own values orethics.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:15):
That's important for me as as as a responder to have
my guide.
That's true, because thefrontline responder in you is
like, let's scorch turst.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:27):
We will salt the soil.
I don't think you would haveactually done it.
I I have a question for you thatI've been wondering this whole
time.
And I'm wondering if other I betyou people are too.
Who's Daryl Dixon in this?
Well, Daryl, um everybody'sfavorite guy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:42):
Daryl's a disruptor.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:44):
He's definitely a frontline responder.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:47):
Um I think later he becomes a visionary, but I think
that's that was a writing choicebecause they ran out of people.
True.
Um, and they're just like, wereally need to build you up for
your spinoff.
Um he's a bit of a storyteller.
He doesn't talk often, but whenhe does, like a perfect example

(01:01:08):
is season two when Carol's uhlost her child, who's presumed
missing, and he comes back andtells a story about the Cherokee
Rose and how um on the Trail ofTears Native Americans uh were
were f they were finding theseflowers along the the Trail of
Tears and they said it wasbecause where when wherever a

(01:01:31):
mother's tear dropped, the storyor this uh this flower grew out
of the ground.
Um so like he does use story toconvey ideas.
Like he doesn't just tell youlike, yeah, my dad was an
asshole.
He tells you a story, he hepaints a picture about like, you
know, um, you know, he'll he'llgo into a trailer and be like,

(01:01:54):
my old man had a chair just likethis, but I had a lot more
cigarette burns on it, but notas much as the back of my neck
or something like that.
I'm I'm paraphrasing, but hethat's how he would tell you
about his troubled backstories.
He'd tell you a story about likebeing a kid and living in the
woods for nine days because hisdad was out driving trucks or

(01:02:15):
something, or off on a bender.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:17):
Yeah, he was a really good storyteller.
You're right.
I think you know, we're all morecomplex than these categories,
but uh the purpose of themreally is to help you find your
path.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:26):
Um, and where you want to focus.
And I want to point out likenone of these were like jobs,
J-O-Bs.
Yeah.
Because jobs are an invention ofcapitalism.
That thing I mentioned, I don'tlike very much.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:39):
That'd be an interesting thing to talk about
in a in an episode is um is thatlike I don't think you need to
assign people jobs if you knowpeople's archetypes.
So like these are all peoplethat will do these things just
instinctually.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:55):
Like you don't have to assign Abraham to guard duty.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:59):
Well, the builder in me would still want to, but I
would I'd be assigning peoplebased on their strengths and
interests.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:06):
You do, but you know that Abraham's gonna volunteer
to be on guard shifts.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:11):
Like I know that um putting Abraham on guard shift
is a good idea and that Iprobably shouldn't put Diana.
Yeah, Diana would be terrible onguard shift.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:19):
Also her son Spencer, because he would
probably sneak off in the middleof the night and just go get
drunk.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:25):
Yeah, I mean, we all have our strengths, and so it's
like knowing what they are.
But I like there are rolespeople need to play in different
points and time, but I thinkknowing sort of more what you're
generally good at is going tohelp you figure out in the
moment, like what is the rolethat I should be playing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:39):
Um, something that, you know, I I mentioned that
like at the same time that youwere creating this, this was
stuff that was actually goingthrough my mind, but not as
clearly organized as this is.
And something else that I wasthinking about at the time, and
something that I would like todo a future episode on, is um
various personality traits thatyou want to have these roles in

(01:04:04):
your zombie apocalypse uhlineup.
You know, like a really goodexample is like um a personality
trait of like a self-starter.
Like you if if you if you havesomebody who is a frontline
responder and a self-starter,like Abraham Ford, that is that
is somebody that you want inyour team.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:24):
Well, there are probably personality traits that
connect each of thesearchetypes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:28):
Yeah.
And then there's personalitytraits that you don't want in
your team.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:32):
Like which Myers-Briggs type goes with each
of these archetypes?
That would be called a frameworkinside of a framework that my
old boss would hate.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:40):
So that's an episode for the future.
The framework and a framework.
Yeah.
We're gonna put a a door and adoor.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:48):
I think we should combo our uh zombie astrology
episode with this one and seewhat happens.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:54):
Yeah, I think we need to redo zombie astrology.
You think it's time to do itagain?
Yeah, it's time to bring itback.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:01):
Yeah, I feel like it was an underappreciated episode.
It was like way back episodeseven or something like that for
newer folks.
Yeah, but it was.
Yeah.
Uh today we've been talkingabout Deepa I or social change
ecosystem framework and thinkingabout what our archetype and
roles might be in the zombieapocalypse.
Curious what you think you are,which of these calls do you?
Which of them would youabsolutely not want to do or

(01:05:22):
think you'd be terrible at?
I think first line or yeah,first line responder, don't do
that to me.
I'm not good at that.
I'm gonna be frozen.
Yeah, I'm gonna freeze, mostlikely.
Or fawn, or I'm probably notgonna run, let's be real.
I might fight if my back'sagainst the wall, but it's not
gonna be my first instinct.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:41):
Um, like in the time that Alice was able to realize
our dog needed safety and to berescued, I was just like, wait,
what's happening?
And then it was over.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:50):
Um, so clearly that's not my thing.
So, like, what are you reallygood at?
What are you not good at?
What what role do you hope toplay in your community right now
and in the zombie apocalypse?
Send us a voicemail,614-699-3006.
I love saying that because itmakes me feel like I'm on the
radio.
You know, call in with yourquestions and tell us, you know,
what you think your role is andwhat you want to play.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:11):
Yeah, what what's what's your request?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:13):
What's uh what's what's the song that you request
for the role that you'replaying?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:17):
It's like a dating um app, too, right?
Because if you look at the onesthat you said were my top four
and my like your top four,there's only one overlap, I
think, which was caregiver.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:28):
So that like we complement each other.
You could also think about itthat way, instead of being like,
well, Pisces and um cancers goreally well together, you'd be
like, Well, you really need avisionary and a builder.
If you just have a visionary,nothing happens.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:41):
Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:44):
And a lot of like in my nonprofit land, worked in
nonprofits forever.
Like the executive director isusually a visionary, and they're
really they got great ideas.
They see a a way forward andlike a world that is more
beautiful, but their ability toimplement is a struggle, and
that's where you need peoplelike me to be like, all right,
let's take your 50,000-foot viewidea and make it like steps

(01:07:07):
we're gonna do now.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, let us know.
Thanks for joining the ZombieBook Club.
You can support us by leaving arating or review.
Send us a voicemail, as I said,up to three minutes at
614-699-00006, or sign up forour newsletter that we have not
sent out since I don't even knowwhen.
Ever.
Once?

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:24):
Once.
So once a spam.
Once a spam.
Uh, little thing about thenewsletter.
I'm gonna I'm I think I'm goingto move it over to Substack.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:32):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:33):
Um, so I don't know how to ask everybody that I have
their email addresses of beforeI do this.
So um, I guess if you hear thisand you don't want me to put it
on Substack, let me know.
That's a good answer.
Yeah.
Uh otherwise I'm doing it.
And if uh you complain after,then um sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:54):
Yeah.
But the places we're hanging outthe most, not currently
Substack, maybe it will be morein the future, is Instagram at
Zombie Book Club Podcast.
That's where you can find ourholiday guide to supporting
zombie authors in the age of AI,happening all this week.
Um, and if you're listening inthe future, it's probably too
late.
But you can still vote by theirbooks, you know.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be thisspecific week.
Uh, you can also hang out withus on the Facebook group, the

(01:08:17):
Zombesties Zombie Book Clubsomething something Facebook
group, or the Brain MunchersCollective Discord, uh, led by
our fearless zombesti, OllieEats Brains.
All links are in thedescription.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:29):
And as you might know, the end is nigh.
Dan has requested I stop singingit.
So I'm just gonna say, baby,bye-bye bye.
Don't die.
Don't die! Do you see the lightleaving my eyes of sadness?
Yes, and it's delicious.
Wow.

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10 Must Have Roles for Your Zombie Apocalypse Team | Zombie Book Club Ep 124

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}10 Must Have Roles for Your Zombie Apocalypse Team | Zombie Book Club Ep 124