May 29, 2023 • 70 mins
Have you ever wondered how to navigate the challenging world of addiction and family dynamics? In this heartfelt conversation with my dear Aunt Susan Wallace, we explore her journey toward healing through the support of Al-Anon and her experience with the powerful plant-based medicine, ayahuasca. Join us as Susan shares invaluable insights into finding peace and understanding in the midst of life's most difficult moments.
In this episode, we delve into Susan's involvement in Al-Anon and how it has helped her comprehend her role in the cycle of alcoholism. We also discuss her transformative experience with ayahuasca, which has significantly contributed to her personal growth. Get ready for an emotional and enlightening conversation as we discuss small-town family dynamics, the importance of having difficult conversations, and the process of consenting to trauma and healing.
By the end of our discussion, we reflect on the profound shifts that can occur as individuals and families adapt to change. Emphasizing the importance of allowing time and space for healing, this episode is a touching exploration of the power of support, love, and understanding in overcoming life's challenges. Tune in and be part of this incredible journey with my Aunt Susan Wallace.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Today, on the Zulu One podcast, we're joined by
someone close to my heart.
She's an artist, a creativesoul, a retired technologist and
my mother's older sister, SusanWallace.
Okay, so for people out therelistening, what's your weekend
(00:22):
been like?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's been healing, comforting, scary.
I felt loved, i felt taken careof.
I have felt healed.
I've felt like this weekend hasbeen for me.
(00:52):
Wow, what a gift It truly trulyis.
It truly has been.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Is that a gift that you gave yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Partly I gave myself.
My sister helped.
My niece, helped My nephew,helped My nephew's family,
because being with his familyhas been, i've just felt,
(01:28):
accepted and loved and nurtured.
The whole package.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Can't beat that Nope.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
And you can't find that just anywhere.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You can't find that just anywhere.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat got you to this place.
What started this journey?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, i believe my journey has been in the making
for years And I've trieddifferent things and that's
advanced me somewhat.
I've done conventional therapy.
(02:30):
I have been involved in Alenonfor countless years Alenon- Yes,
that is.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Alenon was such an impactful thing.
Yes, so what is Alenon?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It's for families who are affected by alcoholics And
no, it's for families who areaffected by alcoholism, friends
and families.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You don't have to have a.
It doesn't have to be arelative.
It could be a friend, And a lotof people know what AA is, but
they don't know what Alenon isAnd Alenon a lot of people who
are involved in AA thinknaturally, that you just go and
(03:25):
talk about them.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Okay.
So, like the alcoholics, thinkthat what an Alenon meaning is
just you talking about them?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Right, because what else would you talk about
Exactly?
They're the most importantthing in the world.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's not a selfish disease at all.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
No, And you don't, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
You don't talk about them at all.
You talk about yourself andlearning how you react to the
alcoholism and the alcoholic Andlearning that you do have a
part in it.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Learning that you have a part in it, and so does
it address the codependencypiece In some Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So we speak around codependency, but really my
reaction to my alcoholic justfurther perpetuated the disease
and the cycle.
(04:34):
And thinking that I could savehim, thinking that I could
control him, thinking that I hadto just pretend that everything
was okay and don't look behindthe curtain because there's a
(04:55):
shit show going on back there,Yeah, yeah, you started Alenon
years.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I mean like a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
In 1990.
Wow, and my husband went intorehab And I thought at the time
he doesn't need to go to rehab,he's not an alcoholic, he's got
a job.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So it was like the concept of alcoholism was like
the old timey bomb on thestreets hiccuping with the
bottle with the 3X's on it.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And my husband had a job and he was successful, and
so I thought he couldn'tpossibly be an alcoholic.
But oh, he hit a fan load ofpeople, he could have killed
them, and they suggested that Igo to Alenon.
(05:54):
And actually my daughter'steacher took his kids to Alateen
and he had overheard mydaughter talking to a friend
about her dad going into rehab,and so I was chaperoning an
event and he came up to me andsaid you know, i take my kids to
(06:16):
Alateen, i could pick up yourdaughter and take her.
And I thought I don't need himto do that for me, i can take
her.
And that's how I started goingto Alenon.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So 1990, that's I mean 30 years ago, that this
point you know, Yes, Wow, I meanthat's was that kind of the
first foray into this kind ofgroup therapy, kind of.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yes, i had an individual therapy before that,
but that's the first time I'dever, you know, worked with a
group.
And then my preschool teacherasked me if I wanted to work
with a smaller group who wasdoing a workbook on the steps.
(07:10):
And so we met for eight yearsconsistently, every single week.
That's huge, and those womensaved my life.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That's incredible.
Well, because I've always heardyou know 12 step language in
the family And I know a lot ofit comes from that.
you know, like expectations isresentment under construction.
Oh you're good, that's a goodone.
It is, man, that's a good one.
That one really stuck with me.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And it's hard to grasp.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Oh yeah, that one really stuck with me.
So expectations is resentmentunder construction, because it's
so like, it's so deep in thefact that of that assumption of
responsibility for your shit,exactly For your shit.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
That's that.
One is that one is alwaysreally resonated with me.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And when, um, if the alcoholic is still drinking, you
step out of the dance and dosomething differently, than they
can't react the same way.
So sometimes that brings thealcoholic to sober living.
(08:29):
Sometimes it doesn't Yeah.
My husband, i believe, was soberfor a year after rehab and um
and I continued to go to Allenon um and then he moved on and I
(08:52):
still was involved in Al-Anonbut then kind of dropped off
because I thought I'm not livingwith an alcoholic, i don't need
to do this any longer.
And then my sister was in thesame situation and I brought her
back from Atlanta to Michiganbecause she was in a bad
(09:13):
situation And so I went with herto Al-Anon and thought I would
support her And, bingo, I stillneed it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I just I remember that time that when you
guys were going and it was justso powerful to see some like
infrastructure, you know, ratherthan white knuckling Exactly
You know, rather than whiteknuckling this thing by yourself
, And it's like there should bean Alalife, you know, like you
(09:45):
know there should really be anAlalife, Because if you're doing
something, you know, like man,when Miranda and I started going
to Al-Anon, it's just, it wasso powerful, It was so powerful
And it's like if they meet youwhere you're at, it's kind of a
not you can just sit there andsay nothing.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Non-judgmental.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You can just sit there and say nothing,
absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
And we've had women who will come for a year and not
speak.
They can't speak And then allof a sudden they open up and you
can see the change.
You can see the change in everyperson around the room And it's
amazing.
They can't see it, but you can,looking at the other people.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And it's so much about context That's what I
found that I saw.
It's like, oh, my situation sounique and blah, blah, blah and
all the you know demons that youhave.
And then you go into this roomand it's like, oh, you're
alcoholics doing the same thing.
Well, welcome to the show, kid.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I'm not unique, And it could be a son or a daughter,
a spouse or a parent, but thethread is all the same.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, the whole thing , yeah, and it's so much of a
work that, like you know, thethe Serenity Prayer is like just
talking about.
You know the things that youcan control, the things that you
can control and the wisdom toknow the difference.
It's like there's some thingsyou just can't control Right,
you know and there's things thatyou can't.
You can control when you brushyour teeth, you can control what
(11:16):
time you wake up, you cancontrol if you make your better
or not, but you can't controlwhat's happening in Russia and
Ukraine.
You can't control if he's goingto drink or not, or she's going
to drink or not.
You can't control any of thosethings.
But you can control yourreaction towards it.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Absolutely, and learning that he didn't drink
because of something I didn'tpick up the laundry, or I did
this or I did that, even thoughhe said it, just because he said
it didn't make it true.
He drank because he's analcoholic allergic to alcohol
And just as he was addicted toalcohol, i was addicted to him
(11:58):
And that makes that the verysame with both my sisters.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So I went to support my sister, learned that, oh yes,
I really do need to be here,And that was probably 10 years
ago.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And I continue to go because it's a wonderful push
prescription for living.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And I kind of feel sorry for the people who don't
have that qualifier for a dollara week.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, really, For a dollar a week And you can get a
sponsor.
You can be as involved or notinvolved in the program as you
want.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And it's like and it's very just kind of
supportive in that, in thatinfrastructure, you know and you
know, if you don't want to workit, you don't have to, yeah,
but if you do, the benefits areincredible.
Yeah, yeah, in every singlerelationship of your life,
everyone co workers, spouses,everyone, your children.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's such a worker responsibility, you know.
Yeah, so you know I've had this, i've had this kind of thought
about how you know, andobviously this is a consolation.
This is a podcast aboutconsolations usually and then
kind of everything that orbitsaround that right Medicine work
and Tolstoy program And it'sreally about healing and in all
(13:31):
modalities really.
But like I always look ateverything through that, that
family consolation lens, do youthink that like?
what do you think therelationship with family
consolations with the step 12step program?
What do you think is the mostappropriate kind of yin and yang
or given dance of those twomodalities?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think all of everything you try all works
together, because I've doneconstellations And and I just
did ayahuasca And it all workstogether to heal.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Do you think it works on like different levels, like
different levels of depth of thesame kind of matrix?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Probably, and I'm slow, so it's taken me a long
time to integrate, like theAllen on thinking into my life.
And and then the constellationthinking, and now I've just
experienced this ayahuasca Andit's like the top of my head is
(14:49):
blown off.
Wow, yeah, that's a, that's alot, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, that's a lot.
So, tell me about thatexperience.
The ayahuasca, like what?
from from the very beginning,it's like you hear about this
word and you're like what isthis?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
What?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
is this, This crazy week?
Oh, you know these weirdopeople.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, And I, I, I think I'm never I never smoked
pot.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I didn't never any do any drugs I mean, that's not me
.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And then you know my sister has gone up a deep end
and she's doing this stuff, andmy niece and my nephew And I'm
like, Oh my God, um, it's likeyou know psychedelic mushrooms
or something.
And I'm like, i'm like, i'mlike, um, it's like you know
psychedelic mushrooms orsomething.
(15:42):
And and then you know, theystart suggesting I think about
this.
And you know at first time likeI don't know why, and then I
heard that Will Smith has done13.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And I'm thinking, okay, he's not such a such a
good place right now.
It was just after the slap.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And um, i think it won't really didn't build a good
case for it, just really youknow so, um, then my sister
called and said Okay, there'sone opening on this date in
Miami.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And, um, you have to decide right now.
But I think I had started downthe path thinking that I was
going to do it because I hadgone off my anti-depressant that
I had been on for years, sincemy alcoholic left Um, and I was
(16:44):
in a tough place because I'dlost so many people.
We'd have had a lot of deathsum in the family, and then I
lost my husband, my secondhusband, and he was my gift for
(17:05):
surviving the alcoholic.
He was an absolute gift.
And losing him He had been withme for all those other deaths.
And then I was alone.
So I was in kind of a darkplace and I told my sister that
I had been stuck and darned.
(17:28):
She remembered I said that andsaid Well, you said you've been
stuck.
If you want to get unstuck, youcan try this.
So who then?
you know?
then, all of a sudden she saysOkay, you've got to start this
And you can't eat this and thisand this and this, and you've
(17:52):
got to do this and get to Miami.
And I did it.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
And you did it.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I did it And that was one of the things Um grassy ask
about.
You know what are yourreflections Um somewhere towards
the end of it And I said Icannot believe I did it.
I'm 68 years old.
This isn't way out of my realm.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I mean talk about being out of your comfort zone.
Oh, absolutely.
This is 1000 miles outside yourcomfort zone.
Absolutely It's really, oh man,I'm going to get emotional.
That's really courageous, Itwas.
That's really brave to do that,Because it's not like man, just
(18:45):
the power of the human spirit.
You know, just to be like, I'mgoing to do something completely
outside of my comfort zone.
Just really brave And peopleare brave all the time.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know they allow themselves to be.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
If we don't get in our own way.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I can't believe I did it.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Do you think that, like all of this was a
culmination to get to this point, like doing Al-Anon
constellations, that like justuncovering layers of stuff?
Yes, that had you ready forthis moment to be able to do
this big, big, because seemslike all this stuff is just
movement right.
Movement out of the muck ofthat stuckness right is like
(19:37):
being in the same cycle, in thesame thing.
I sometimes think that 12 stepprograms do that, like they kind
of self indulge a little bit inthat stuckness program, but
then you do this other big workand then it gets you out of it
and then you can use you cancontinue to use that
infrastructure as a sharedlanguage to get out of it.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Except the 12 stop says that you will be of service
to other people, and so I stillcontinue to go.
I don't live with anyone.
I still continue to go to Allenon because there were people
there for me And I want to bethere for other people.
(20:16):
It's not that I'm not learninganything from it, because I
always do, but I want to bethere for other people.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I couldn't imagine what what that support system
feels like of people that you'vebeen working with or dealing
like that.
You that have been supportingeach other for 30 years, you
know out of this group.
That is incredible.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
We had a woman who had no family and she had, she
had a chronic disease and thenshe found out she had breast
cancer.
She they really couldn't treatthe breast cancer because of her
chronic disease And so she knewthat she was going to die.
And she had no one and shedidn't want to go into a nursing
(20:59):
home.
So our group was able tosupport her through hospice and
you know what that's like, your,i mean, you have nurses and you
have support, but you're there24, seven And around the clock.
we had people doing differentthings.
I'd go over.
you know, my days were Monday,wednesday and Friday.
(21:20):
I'd go over, get her up in themorning, give her pills.
She had the death that shewanted.
Oh, that's beautiful, and itwas all through Ellen and
support.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
There's something to be said about a beautiful
transition.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yes, and she taught me so much, so much, but she was
a person at Elena that woulddrive me nuts in the beginning.
You know like sometimessomebody would talk long or
something but she would drive menuts.
But then towards the end she Isometimes would look over at her
and she was always cold.
(22:04):
So she always had a coat on anda hat and you know, she was,
you know, just down to nothingAnd still would come to Elena
and it would be like I could seearound her hat.
It looked like a halo and whatshe would come out of her mouth
(22:28):
was so profound Wow, it was ashe like had edited her words
down to the end And so the onlythings that came out were
profound.
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And there's, you know .
One thing that I've learnedfrom all the deaths is that
there's so many profound lessonsat the end.
Yes, it's such a beautifulteacher.
Yes, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It is such a privilege to be with someone in
their final hours.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And it doesn't have to be traumatic.
No, it doesn't have to be, youknow, like taking horrible news
and doing all that stuff.
It can be somber and sincereand funny.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
We know that.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It can be very funny and it can be, you know, moving
and full of just of beautifulmoments and pain and just.
It can be really real andauthentic.
And there's things get realauthentic when you're at the end
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And just as it's such a thrill and an honor to be
with a baby coming into theworld, it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, do you will go into this part.
You know the the the death part, which is interesting.
You know when grandpa died, youknow I remember him being there
And he's like, ok, that's mygrandfather.
And then he, true, lost breath.
(24:17):
And then he wasn't Right Andthat was the weirdest, most real
thing I've ever seen, becauseit was like oh, there's a couch
Right.
Zero meaning Right, noconnection.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
We were all focused on him And then we just turned
our attention.
He was gone.
We turned our attention and hewas just over here, but that's
not where the focus was.
He had left his body.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's just he wasn't.
You know, some people is likeno longer with us, like that is
so yeah.
It's in and you know we havethis reverence and this thing
for the body, but it's like thebody was like it could have been
.
I don't know this, this, this,you know vase, or this candle
it's the same day it's there'sjust no attachment or meaning to
(25:12):
the vessel, like it.
Just it just put so much intocontext that we're not our meat
vessel, you know exactly, we'renot our container.
We're not our container.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And okay, what are we going to put on him, you know?
oh, wouldn't it be funny to putthese white shoes on?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
His balleballe, but it was just not a like, a not a
thing.
It wasn't a thing at all.
You know, it's just.
That's so such a profoundlesson, and you can like that
when you're with somebody there,he's like that person's more
there than here.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes, yes.
And at the end, when they're inand out and back and forth and
and with Belinda saying you knowwell, where do all the people
go, or one time she, you know,opened her eyes and said I was
just with dad.
And you know, i just said, well, how is he?
(26:14):
He's good.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
That's incredible.
Yeah, i remember.
so you know, for people thatdon't know, my cousin Carson was
31.
Yeah, 31 when he passed andshort battle with cancer
metastasized.
And then there was a hippoendectomy for a young, very
(26:45):
extremely athletic Young man Andhis transition was really
different.
It wasn't a transition ofsomebody that was ready to go
Right, it was almost fighting.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
He fought it.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Being here and there, right, yes.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Because that's who he was.
He was a fighter.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
He was an Air Force veteran, he was a fighter, he
played football.
He fought his entire life.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
He was even competitive with death.
Yes, so of course he wouldfight it.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, yeah, because I know I wasn't there obviously
for his passing, but remembereverybody saying how you know
that and like he would leave andthen come back.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Numerous times And you think, okay, that's it And
no.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Was it.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
And one time he even said whoa, did you see what just
happened?
I just died Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Oh man, that is incredible.
Yeah, wow, hmm, there were somany lessons in his death.
Yes, you know There were somany lessons in his death.
That's one of the things that Ilearned about it, so there was
(28:16):
just so many lessons in it.
You know we didn't see eye toeye, you know majority of our
lives, but they were like soprofoundly grateful to him.
Yeah, you know, so profoundlygrateful.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
And then he came back to Marshall Yeah To die, and
that his wife allowed that.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, and he's like amazing.
Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
So you're from a small town inMarshall, central Michigan.
Yes, town of 7000.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
6800.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
6800 right now.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Today.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Well, 600 and 700.
6700 and 99, since you're here,Exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I'll go back to 6800 when you go back Exactly On
Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
What was it like growing up in a small town and
so much kind of death happening?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, i didn't exactly grow up in Marshall, but
I've been back since I wasnewly married, so a long time.
The thing I love about Marshallis that the people are
(29:46):
passionate, so they haveconvictions and so they
sometimes fight.
Okay, but if somebody needssomething, they're there for you
.
So we had so many people do somany wonderful things for us
(30:08):
with all of those deaths becausewe just had one after another,
after another.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
People in town would be like oh Right.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I could see you walking around and be like oh
Right, oh, i'm so sorry aboutfilling the blank.
You know they brought food andthey just did so many things for
us to support us, and one ofthe really cool things they did
(30:34):
at Christmas time.
Carson died in November and soat Christmas time they set up
some trees and they wereMemorial Christmas trees that
you could decorate.
So Thanksgiving, all the kidswere there and the relatives
(30:55):
were there and we all madedecorations for Carson's tree
And then it was freezing coldand the kids and Sydney and I
went and decorated the tree andit was such a bonding awesome
experience for us.
That was really cool And that'ssomething only Marshall can do.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Like Grandpa would say that Marshall takes care of
its widows.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
He did And six months before he died they came back
to Marshall and because he knewthat Marshall would take care of
mom Six months, that's amazing,it was six months.
(31:43):
Yeah, it was such a shortperiod of time, wow, wow.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
What was it like?
I mean, i would imagine there'sgood things and bad things
about being such a small town.
What are the cons?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
The conflicts And everyone you know thinks they
know who you are and thinks theyknow your business.
But, man, the good thingsoutweigh the bad They really do
(32:25):
for me.
Yeah, i never.
I didn't want to raise my kidsin one spot and have them never
move, and that's exactly what Idid.
That was not my plan.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
But there's something beautiful to that right.
There's something beautiful toknowing everybody and everybody
knows you.
There's a lot of country songsabout that, you know.
the country music industry hasbuilt a whole library of music
based on that concept, right.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yes.
And for me to go into an Allenon meeting, my first Allen on
meeting and seeing my nurseryschool teacher, I thought, oh
crap, she's going to know.
And it took me about threemeetings before I figured out.
Oh wait, a minute, she's herefor the same reason I am, Yeah.
And then she continued to teachme by starting that group that
(33:35):
we work through the stepworkbook and she taught me to
her death.
She ended up with Alzheimer'sand I would see pictures.
She ended up moving to Floridawith her daughter and I'd see
pictures of her with the mostbeautiful smile.
She was just happy as can be.
(33:57):
She taught me so much, Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
What was your name?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Rosemary.
She was a beautiful, beautifulwoman and she ended up her first
husband died and she starteddating the Methodist minister
and he lived across the streetfrom us And they were so cute.
(34:27):
They were so cute and he justadored her.
So they'd come over for dinnerand he'd say now we're going to
have dinner and then you need toleave.
They were so stinking cute.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
At like four o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
And they were in there probably late seventies
then.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
What are some of the benefits?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Of living in a small town, The support you don't have
to explain, They know.
You know you've lost yourmother, father, sister, nephew.
They know all that If theysupport me, they'll support my
(35:23):
children and vice versa.
So if they support my children,they'll also support me.
And when something bad happens,they rally around.
You know they're havingcountless families that maybe
they've lost their home to afire and or cancer or whatever.
(35:49):
And they just rally around andall of a sudden you know they've
raised enough money to get theperson through And they may not
even know them.
They may even know the name, oroh, that's my doctor's daughter
And so I'm going to support her.
Wow, And some of my children'steachers taught me, They taught
(36:20):
my children, And some even havetaught grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Really Yes, wow, that's incredible Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Geez.
Not too long ago I was atShuler's and a restaurant for
dinner And with some friends andthe friends are older than I am
He had had Mr Ickes was ourEnglish teacher.
He had had Mr Ickes, i had MrIckes.
He, mr Ickes, came to Billy'sopen house my son's open house
(36:56):
and made him a book, made him alittle book that he drew
pictures in.
Mr Ickes was at Shuler's GeezAnd one time during a conference
I said you don't remember me, iwas really quiet.
He said what's your name And Itold him and he said oh, you sat
(37:16):
in the second seat in the firstrow.
I remember you.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That's incredible Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
So you can really understand the context of a town
or a community.
Right, It's like you reallyunderstand the fabric of what
that community's like.
Yes, I mean we were talkingabout earlier today about kind
of that history that SyndromeMichigan has, about the
(37:55):
sanatoriums, about the Kellogg's.
You know, the circumcision push, the puritanism kind of the
sexual repression.
What do you think is thateffect that's been in the larger
community?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
I had never thought about it until we started
discussing it today.
I'd never thought of that, butit is rampant And there have
been some issues in our town.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, And it's so much about it and just stems
from unresolved trauma.
right, Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
So much.
Of it is just those patternsrepeating.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
And not being at trust.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
And not being addressed.
Yeah, just like Alan startsaddressing those things and
starts creating those scenariosAnd I don't know many other
things.
I know Constellations does itAnd maybe you know some other
modalities address that stuff,and just I'm trying to the thing
(39:12):
that I'm just kind of workingon not working on but just very
curious about.
It's like how do you addressunresolved trauma in a communal
fabric, right, and it's like howmany people in that community
does it take to change themomentum and address the things
(39:34):
that need to be healed?
Because there's no doubt thatit's an incredible community
that has all this benefit andall these good things, right,
like, how do you address andmake the community stronger by
giving an infrastructure forunresolved trauma?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I think it takes brave people to step up, step
out and speak the truth And pullback that veil And not let it
continue And pretend it's nothappening.
Yeah, That's the scariest part.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, that's the scariest part, for most people
is to look at it, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
And I think that's for me.
What Allinon did in the verybeginning was looking at it,
saying this is what's happening,Not hiding it, Not trying to be
the perfect family and show theworld that, oh yeah, we're all
fine, But pulling back thecurtain, looking at it and
(40:41):
saying this is what's going on,And with my sisters and I we're
all very, very close, But we hidthat from each other.
What was going on in our ownhomes?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
So in an Allinon meeting, you know what I learned
.
What fine stands for Fucking,insane, neurotic and exhausted.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
We were all fine, all of us, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
So okay, that's.
I think that's a good segueinto kind of the next gear into
this conversation.
is that okay?
so where does you and yoursisters right, and one of your
sisters is my mother, yes, youknow clearly, this is what this
conversation is.
So what are your sisters and mymother and tell me about?
(41:36):
what's the three legs of thestool concept?
What's that?
Where did that?
what does that come from?
How do you address it?
How do you, how do youunderstand that, that family
dynamic?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So my parents were a unit and the three of us were a
unit And my dad was driven.
He was, he traveled a lot.
He, you know, in later yearsowned his own business and so
(42:16):
and my mom was supporting him.
Like my sisters and I, ibelieve that our mom was
addicted to our dad and and theworld revolved around him, so
she was really busy.
He was a busy man.
He was a busy man And so she wasbusy taking care of him and
(42:42):
trying to control, and you knowlike interference and you know
like right right Run that allowthat whole show.
And then there were the threeof us.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
I'm gonna keep the Benny Hill thing going on.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Right Yeah.
And one of his business cohortsalways referred to him as PT,
PT Barnum.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
And it's kind of it's kind of was.
Yeah, he kind of was Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
So there was a lot to deal with, but then that kind
of left the three of us to fendfor ourselves and my role as the
oldest.
I felt and and I think I wastold this I mean they always
said take care of your sisters.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Watch out for your sisters.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
What a huge amount of responsibility.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Right, I did something wrong which my
youngest sister was known to doonce in a while.
It was my responsibility towatch out for her and make sure
she didn't do that.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Do you think it's?
it comes as a defense mechanismfor you guys to come together
as that triangle of?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yes, so when we lost, when Cindy and I lost one leg,
the stool fell down Big timeThat was.
That was devastating.
It was not our first loss.
Our dad had died first, butthis was the really and she was.
(44:36):
She was not old, she was 50.
She was 52 or 55.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Yeah, 53.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Somewhere in there.
So she was not old.
It was too young for her to die, and that, just you know,
knocked the legs out on it fromunder us.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Because there wasn't.
Do you think it was because ofthe proximity of you three that
there wasn't space for each oneto be like an independent unit
on your own?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Right, we were all.
We were Amashed Once, totally,totally, we were one unit, one
stool.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I couldn't imagine that what that's like, what
losing her would be like.
It was awful, it's like you die.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Like a piece of you Right.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Dying Right.
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Like you literally feel like a piece of you is
dying, like your arm and leg andlike Right Lung.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yeah, and you walk around afterwards and think
don't people know that?
you know I'm missing an arm.
How could you expect me to dealwith anything?
I'm missing an arm?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
No, i don't know What gifts were in that transition
Um or were there any?
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Oh, absolutely Oh.
She had the best death ofanyone I know.
I mean she was like a queen.
She lived in this gorgeousapartment that.
I mean she couldn't afford Umit was a cool place.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
It was.
It was a very cool place.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
And so many people came to visit her and talk with
her and bring her presence in,and and Cindy would just.
You know, what do you wanttoday?
You want a baloney sandwich.
I mean because?
we ate baloney sandwiches whenwe were little um with Fritos on
(47:01):
them And um, she, just she hadthe very best death And we
laughed and we cried, and andthe family all came together.
It was, i mean, nobody couldask for more.
(47:24):
She got everything she wantedin her funeral.
We discussed that And you knowwhat?
This is one of the lessons I'velearned with um Belinda staff.
One night I was, it was my turnto um sleep on the couch next to
(47:48):
her bed And um, in the middleof the night I woke up and she
was awake and and I started tosay you know, Belinda, i just
want to tell you.
And she said, nope, we're notdoing that.
I was going to say goodbye Andshe said, no, we're not doing it
, and I didn't.
(48:10):
And then, um, my husband hadParkinson's, so I knew what was
coming.
I didn't think it was going tobe as fast as it was, but, um,
we had, you know, kind of hadthe conversation of what he
(48:30):
wanted when he died, and but not, you know, like someday, yeah,
not concrete conversation.
And he just kept saying, well, Iwant to be with you.
I want to, i just want to bewith you And um, and he never
acknowledged that he was dyingAnd you know he was in a hospice
(48:55):
and you know he's in a hospitalbed and he was at home, but he
never acknowledged that he wasdying.
So we never had the conversation, And what I've learned is to
have those conversations, nomatter how hard they are.
Have those difficultconversations.
(49:15):
It's so important because oncethey're gone you don't have the
opportunity, and that'ssomething I hope I will keep
with me and and spread thatmessage.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
I mean, I know that there's never a good time to
have that conversation.
No but it's so important, it'sso important, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
I felt robbed because I didn't have it with both of
them.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Were there things that weren't said, that you
wanted to say?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
No, i mean, he knew I loved him.
He knew that, Um, and I knew heloved me.
So there wasn't anything umunsaid other than you know, what
do you expect me to do when youdie?
What do you expect me to live?
(50:20):
How am I going to do that?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Was it almost like asking for permission to
continue?
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Probably I didn't want to.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
That's big.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
The person who knew me the best, saw me, was gone.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
And I didn't want to be here without him.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
That was the most difficult for me.
Belinda was really, really,really hard.
But losing Dave because he wasalways there, he was there for
me with Belinda, i think Davewas the most difficult.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Do you feel now that you can?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
I feel like I can honor him by living and caring
on Because he believed in me, heloved me, he knew I could do it
.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
So if it would be a dishonor to him if I didn't
continue to live, That, in hishonor, he'll continue.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Give me goosebumps.
Wow, is there such that dangerof following Right?
You know Right.
Yeah, that happens so often.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
And that we were talking about earlier.
That happened with Carson andBullitt.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yes, so let's talk about that a little bit.
So my aunt is diagnosed withangiosarcoma And then it
metastasized to her.
(53:05):
She broke her hip.
That's how they found out thatshe had this cancer.
She went to pick up a letterthat fell on the ground and bent
over and collapsed And thenthey saw see that her femoral
head is dead Right And has a.
She breaks her hip Right Andthen they find out that it is
(53:29):
cancer And within four monthsfour months she's gone Right And
she's a middle child Well,she's the youngest right And her
son that they were very close,extremely close.
Shortly after developscongiosarcoma.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yes, Six months to the day after his mother died,
he had surgery on his hip toremove assist.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
So it was the same hip like the left leg.
Yes, the left hip and hisfemoral head was dying or
decaying.
Yes, And he has a full hipreplacement.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
He had a full hip replacement And then when he had
the hip first they removedassist.
Then it was maybe, maybe sixmonths later that they did the
hip replacement and found thecongiosarcoma.
So then it was probably sixmonths after that that they did.
(54:48):
They had to do ahemipelopectomy.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Hemipelopectomy, that's a removal of the full leg
and a quarter of the hip right,yes, of the pelvic foot bone.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Yes, and then it was maybe six months later that he
was gone.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Because it had metastasized those lungs.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes, so it talks.
I mean probabilistically twodifferent types of
extraordinarily rare cancers.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
Metastasizing and presenting in the same way.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Same place.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Same place And then both people passing not to say
that, you know, this is medicalevidence, but it has a strong
suggestion that there'ssomething more at play.
Absolutely, What a lesson.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
You know, and in constellation work we know, that
there's books out there.
I think I can't remember whathis name is, but there's a book
out there called Even If ItCosts Me My Life.
Speaker 3 (56:05):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Yeah, That's like I'm so loyal to you that I will
even sacrifice my life out ofunconscious loyalty to the
family system.
Wow, So that gives megoosebumps.
I mean that is the most powerfulforce in the world is that
loyalty.
(56:26):
Because, if you know, and thatgift that Carson and we called
my Aunt Belinda, aunt Boo, gaveme, is that if a kid, you know,
a young man, super athlete,elite athlete, air Force veteran
, combat veteran, you know,officer, us Air Force Academy,
(56:51):
you know, loved by many rockstar type type of dude, right
Rock, super rock star, there's amural at the Air Force Academy
of him you know, superstar rightThat if none of that could have
stopped him and that loyalty isso strong than anything is
(57:15):
possible, Right.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
And he would even say I want to be with Mama Bird.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Man, oh, and I remember Aunt Boo not wanting to
be here, right?
You know that's the reality,right?
Just I just remember her notwanting to be here and her
saying it you know, and it'sjust so heartbreaking.
Yeah, you know, and it justmakes me angry too.
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah.
You know, because she was sostinking funny.
Yeah, she was fun and she wasawesome.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
But she, she, she was finally able to let go of her
husband at the very last second,but I don't know if she ever
really let go.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
I mean she divorced him, but I don't believe she
ever let go.
Speaker 3 (58:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
I mean, i just know how.
And you put into the unresolvedtrauma and to that, into that
mix and it's all thismanifestation of what that looks
like.
You know, and it's just sopainful that there is an
alternative.
But also you have to consent topeople's destinies.
Yes, you know, and respect themand say I consent to that being
(58:49):
your path.
Yeah, you know it's so hardbecause you don't want to.
And you know the train, youknow my man, i'm going to get
emotional.
My mom used to say it's like Iknow the train's coming and it's
going to blow everything up.
It's like and there's nothingyou can do about it.
You know the train wreckscoming right, like the bridge is
(59:12):
blown up and the train's on itsway and it's not going to stop.
And you just like, please, no,just so catastrophic, but to
consent to the, to that, to thatjourney.
You know that's so tough.
That's such a tough thingbecause we all want to control,
(59:34):
right, right.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Yeah, and when she was first diagnosed I knew she
wouldn't go through treatmentand I was angry.
But then I understood Yeah,it's her choice, she got to die
(59:56):
the way she wanted to And Idon't know, as I mean, i think
treatment would have maybeprolonged her death.
Who wants to live like that?
Yeah, it never would have curedher.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
But what I mean?
such profound lessons in it.
You know, it's like you almosthave to consent to learning all
those lessons and it being theway it is right.
And we, i know we reminisce andwe say, man, it would have been
awesome if they were here to beable to go through this.
But that's the, that's thetrade off.
You know that's the trade offAnd that's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
That's the hard part.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
That's the shitty part.
Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
They're just like that's okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
I'm glad we're here.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
I'm so glad I'm here.
I'm so very glad.
I'm so glad I did this.
I'm so glad I took this thistime for myself and for my
journey and my healing.
And I'm glad I did it for mykids.
They don't want to deal with anutcase.
(01:01:25):
They've dealt with me enough.
Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I mean, but this, this is interesting too And I
and I'm, you know, when I wastalking, so I took a comedy
class, right, i stand up comedyclass, and the guy was a shout
out to Michael Panzeca.
So Michael was like a familytherapist, you know, type of
addiction specialist, kind ofperson, and that there's this,
(01:01:57):
this like a wellness place herein South Florida, and you know
he was like you know, no, no,nothing to do with consolation,
never talked about consolation.
See, we know what a familyconsolation was.
And he's like you don't treatthe addict man.
He's like kind of this laidback guy smoke cigarettes, and
he's like you don't treat thefamily man.
(01:02:17):
You don't treat the, the, theaddict, you treat the whole
family.
He's like when, when the addictand when you said that when the
addict learns how to dance salsaand steps dancing merengue with
the family, that's what,literally what he said stops
dancing merengue with the family, they either have to learn how
to dance salsa or they stoppeddancing.
(01:02:39):
And you're like, when he saidthat, i was like, oh my gosh, i
was so profound.
Yeah, you know, and and andthat's what happens in many when
you solve, when you're notsolved, but when you heal the
patterns of trauma.
People stop dancing salsa.
(01:02:59):
They stop you know, they stopdancing that old dance that
happened, that you know you belike Hey, every time I've done A
and B, c's happen.
And then you do A and B and itdoesn't.
It's like a chord that doesn'tresolve.
You don't want a song.
It's like and they, you know,we expect the court, the song to
(01:03:21):
resolve, like the court and thebuildup to resolve.
It's like it doesn't resolveAnd you're like this is weird,
what has changed?
And so that song eitherdissipates and fades away and
you create a new song, or you goand and or leave the music
altogether.
Right, it's like you can.
That's.
It's that dynamic that you likeand it's not.
(01:03:43):
I don't.
I don't think it's only withaddicts, i think it's with all
family dynamics, right, and thatyou won't be the same person
that you were yesterday andyou'll go back and you're not
going to be the same person Andthe whole ecosystem will have to
adapt to that new version ofwho you are And they'll choose
to adapt as you get itdifferently.
You see, and I'm like man, thatwe used to have this thing and
(01:04:06):
it just no longer happens.
It's so, so, so profound andinteresting.
It's a lot of shifting.
Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
So what are some lessons that you're taking for
this weekend?
Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Oh man, so many, so many, so many.
I, i'm still processing, wow,still processing, and I, i think
I will be for quite some time,yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
You got to let the dust settle for a long time.
Yeah, it's going to, and it'sgoing to settle in a completely
new place.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
It'll be interesting, really interesting, yeah.
So thank you, you're welcomeFor your part in this and you've
had a huge part in it.
Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Thank you for being open.
I love you you.
Today, on the Zulu One podcast, we're joined by
someone close to my heart.
She's an artist, a creativesoul, a retired technologist and
my mother's older sister, SusanWallace.
Okay, so for people out therelistening, what's your weekend
(00:22):
been like?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's been healing, comforting, scary.
I felt loved, i felt taken careof.
I have felt healed.
I've felt like this weekend hasbeen for me.
(00:52):
Wow, what a gift It truly trulyis.
It truly has been.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Is that a gift that you gave yourself?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Partly I gave myself.
My sister helped.
My niece, helped My nephew,helped My nephew's family,
because being with his familyhas been, i've just felt,
(01:28):
accepted and loved and nurtured.
The whole package.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Can't beat that Nope.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
And you can't find that just anywhere.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You can't find that just anywhere.
So tell me a little bit aboutwhat got you to this place.
What started this journey?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, i believe my journey has been in the making
for years And I've trieddifferent things and that's
advanced me somewhat.
I've done conventional therapy.
(02:30):
I have been involved in Alenonfor countless years Alenon- Yes,
that is.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Alenon was such an impactful thing.
Yes, so what is Alenon?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It's for families who are affected by alcoholics And
no, it's for families who areaffected by alcoholism, friends
and families.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You don't have to have a.
It doesn't have to be arelative.
It could be a friend, And a lotof people know what AA is, but
they don't know what Alenon isAnd Alenon a lot of people who
are involved in AA thinknaturally, that you just go and
(03:25):
talk about them.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Okay.
So, like the alcoholics, thinkthat what an Alenon meaning is
just you talking about them?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Right, because what else would you talk about
Exactly?
They're the most importantthing in the world.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
It's not a selfish disease at all.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
No, And you don't, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
You don't talk about them at all.
You talk about yourself andlearning how you react to the
alcoholism and the alcoholic Andlearning that you do have a
part in it.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Learning that you have a part in it, and so does
it address the codependencypiece In some Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So we speak around codependency, but really my
reaction to my alcoholic justfurther perpetuated the disease
and the cycle.
(04:34):
And thinking that I could savehim, thinking that I could
control him, thinking that I hadto just pretend that everything
was okay and don't look behindthe curtain because there's a
(04:55):
shit show going on back there,Yeah, yeah, you started Alenon
years.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I mean like a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
In 1990.
Wow, and my husband went intorehab And I thought at the time
he doesn't need to go to rehab,he's not an alcoholic, he's got
a job.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
So it was like the concept of alcoholism was like
the old timey bomb on thestreets hiccuping with the
bottle with the 3X's on it.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
And my husband had a job and he was successful, and
so I thought he couldn'tpossibly be an alcoholic.
But oh, he hit a fan load ofpeople, he could have killed
them, and they suggested that Igo to Alenon.
(05:54):
And actually my daughter'steacher took his kids to Alateen
and he had overheard mydaughter talking to a friend
about her dad going into rehab,and so I was chaperoning an
event and he came up to me andsaid you know, i take my kids to
(06:16):
Alateen, i could pick up yourdaughter and take her.
And I thought I don't need himto do that for me, i can take
her.
And that's how I started goingto Alenon.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So 1990, that's I mean 30 years ago, that this
point you know, Yes, Wow, I meanthat's was that kind of the
first foray into this kind ofgroup therapy, kind of.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yes, i had an individual therapy before that,
but that's the first time I'dever, you know, worked with a
group.
And then my preschool teacherasked me if I wanted to work
with a smaller group who wasdoing a workbook on the steps.
(07:10):
And so we met for eight yearsconsistently, every single week.
That's huge, and those womensaved my life.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
That's incredible.
Well, because I've always heardyou know 12 step language in
the family And I know a lot ofit comes from that.
you know, like expectations isresentment under construction.
Oh you're good, that's a goodone.
It is, man, that's a good one.
That one really stuck with me.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
And it's hard to grasp.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Oh yeah, that one really stuck with me.
So expectations is resentmentunder construction, because it's
so like, it's so deep in thefact that of that assumption of
responsibility for your shit,exactly For your shit.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
That's that.
One is that one is alwaysreally resonated with me.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And when, um, if the alcoholic is still drinking, you
step out of the dance and dosomething differently, than they
can't react the same way.
So sometimes that brings thealcoholic to sober living.
(08:29):
Sometimes it doesn't Yeah.
My husband, i believe, was soberfor a year after rehab and um
and I continued to go to Allenon um and then he moved on and I
(08:52):
still was involved in Al-Anonbut then kind of dropped off
because I thought I'm not livingwith an alcoholic, i don't need
to do this any longer.
And then my sister was in thesame situation and I brought her
back from Atlanta to Michiganbecause she was in a bad
(09:13):
situation And so I went with herto Al-Anon and thought I would
support her And, bingo, I stillneed it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I just I remember that time that when you
guys were going and it was justso powerful to see some like
infrastructure, you know, ratherthan white knuckling Exactly
You know, rather than whiteknuckling this thing by yourself
, And it's like there should bean Alalife, you know, like you
(09:45):
know there should really be anAlalife, Because if you're doing
something, you know, like man,when Miranda and I started going
to Al-Anon, it's just, it wasso powerful, It was so powerful
And it's like if they meet youwhere you're at, it's kind of a
not you can just sit there andsay nothing.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Non-judgmental.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
You can just sit there and say nothing,
absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
And we've had women who will come for a year and not
speak.
They can't speak And then allof a sudden they open up and you
can see the change.
You can see the change in everyperson around the room And it's
amazing.
They can't see it, but you can,looking at the other people.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
And it's so much about context That's what I
found that I saw.
It's like, oh, my situation sounique and blah, blah, blah and
all the you know demons that youhave.
And then you go into this roomand it's like, oh, you're
alcoholics doing the same thing.
Well, welcome to the show, kid.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I'm not unique, And it could be a son or a daughter,
a spouse or a parent, but thethread is all the same.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Yeah, the whole thing , yeah, and it's so much of a
work that, like you know, thethe Serenity Prayer is like just
talking about.
You know the things that youcan control, the things that you
can control and the wisdom toknow the difference.
It's like there's some thingsyou just can't control Right,
you know and there's things thatyou can't.
You can control when you brushyour teeth, you can control what
(11:16):
time you wake up, you cancontrol if you make your better
or not, but you can't controlwhat's happening in Russia and
Ukraine.
You can't control if he's goingto drink or not, or she's going
to drink or not.
You can't control any of thosethings.
But you can control yourreaction towards it.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Absolutely, and learning that he didn't drink
because of something I didn'tpick up the laundry, or I did
this or I did that, even thoughhe said it, just because he said
it didn't make it true.
He drank because he's analcoholic allergic to alcohol
And just as he was addicted toalcohol, i was addicted to him
(11:58):
And that makes that the verysame with both my sisters.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
That makes sense.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
So I went to support my sister, learned that, oh yes,
I really do need to be here,And that was probably 10 years
ago.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
And I continue to go because it's a wonderful push
prescription for living.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
And I kind of feel sorry for the people who don't
have that qualifier for a dollara week.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Yeah, really, For a dollar a week And you can get a
sponsor.
You can be as involved or notinvolved in the program as you
want.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And it's like and it's very just kind of
supportive in that, in thatinfrastructure, you know and you
know, if you don't want to workit, you don't have to, yeah,
but if you do, the benefits areincredible.
Yeah, yeah, in every singlerelationship of your life,
everyone co workers, spouses,everyone, your children.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
It's such a worker responsibility, you know.
Yeah, so you know I've had this, i've had this kind of thought
about how you know, andobviously this is a consolation.
This is a podcast aboutconsolations usually and then
kind of everything that orbitsaround that right Medicine work
and Tolstoy program And it'sreally about healing and in all
(13:31):
modalities really.
But like I always look ateverything through that, that
family consolation lens, do youthink that like?
what do you think therelationship with family
consolations with the step 12step program?
What do you think is the mostappropriate kind of yin and yang
or given dance of those twomodalities?
Speaker 2 (13:54):
I think all of everything you try all works
together, because I've doneconstellations And and I just
did ayahuasca And it all workstogether to heal.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Do you think it works on like different levels, like
different levels of depth of thesame kind of matrix?
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Probably, and I'm slow, so it's taken me a long
time to integrate, like theAllen on thinking into my life.
And and then the constellationthinking, and now I've just
experienced this ayahuasca Andit's like the top of my head is
(14:49):
blown off.
Wow, yeah, that's a, that's alot, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, that's a lot.
So, tell me about thatexperience.
The ayahuasca, like what?
from from the very beginning,it's like you hear about this
word and you're like what isthis?
Speaker 3 (15:05):
What?
Speaker 1 (15:06):
is this, This crazy week?
Oh, you know these weirdopeople.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
Yeah, And I, I, I think I'm never I never smoked
pot.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
I didn't never any do any drugs I mean, that's not me
.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And then you know my sister has gone up a deep end
and she's doing this stuff, andmy niece and my nephew And I'm
like, Oh my God, um, it's likeyou know psychedelic mushrooms
or something.
And I'm like, i'm like, i'mlike, um, it's like you know
psychedelic mushrooms orsomething.
(15:42):
And and then you know, theystart suggesting I think about
this.
And you know at first time likeI don't know why, and then I
heard that Will Smith has done13.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
And I'm thinking, okay, he's not such a such a
good place right now.
It was just after the slap.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And um, i think it won't really didn't build a good
case for it, just really youknow so, um, then my sister
called and said Okay, there'sone opening on this date in
Miami.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And, um, you have to decide right now.
But I think I had started downthe path thinking that I was
going to do it because I hadgone off my anti-depressant that
I had been on for years, sincemy alcoholic left Um, and I was
(16:44):
in a tough place because I'dlost so many people.
We'd have had a lot of deathsum in the family, and then I
lost my husband, my secondhusband, and he was my gift for
(17:05):
surviving the alcoholic.
He was an absolute gift.
And losing him He had been withme for all those other deaths.
And then I was alone.
So I was in kind of a darkplace and I told my sister that
I had been stuck and darned.
(17:28):
She remembered I said that andsaid Well, you said you've been
stuck.
If you want to get unstuck, youcan try this.
So who then?
you know?
then, all of a sudden she saysOkay, you've got to start this
And you can't eat this and thisand this and this, and you've
(17:52):
got to do this and get to Miami.
And I did it.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
And you did it.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I did it And that was one of the things Um grassy ask
about.
You know what are yourreflections Um somewhere towards
the end of it And I said Icannot believe I did it.
I'm 68 years old.
This isn't way out of my realm.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I mean talk about being out of your comfort zone.
Oh, absolutely.
This is 1000 miles outside yourcomfort zone.
Absolutely It's really, oh man,I'm going to get emotional.
That's really courageous, Itwas.
That's really brave to do that,Because it's not like man, just
(18:45):
the power of the human spirit.
You know, just to be like, I'mgoing to do something completely
outside of my comfort zone.
Just really brave And peopleare brave all the time.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
You know they allow themselves to be.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
If we don't get in our own way.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
I can't believe I did it.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Do you think that, like all of this was a
culmination to get to this point, like doing Al-Anon
constellations, that like justuncovering layers of stuff?
Yes, that had you ready forthis moment to be able to do
this big, big, because seemslike all this stuff is just
movement right.
Movement out of the muck ofthat stuckness right is like
(19:37):
being in the same cycle, in thesame thing.
I sometimes think that 12 stepprograms do that, like they kind
of self indulge a little bit inthat stuckness program, but
then you do this other big workand then it gets you out of it
and then you can use you cancontinue to use that
infrastructure as a sharedlanguage to get out of it.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Except the 12 stop says that you will be of service
to other people, and so I stillcontinue to go.
I don't live with anyone.
I still continue to go to Allenon because there were people
there for me And I want to bethere for other people.
(20:16):
It's not that I'm not learninganything from it, because I
always do, but I want to bethere for other people.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I couldn't imagine what what that support system
feels like of people that you'vebeen working with or dealing
like that.
You that have been supportingeach other for 30 years, you
know out of this group.
That is incredible.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
We had a woman who had no family and she had, she
had a chronic disease and thenshe found out she had breast
cancer.
She they really couldn't treatthe breast cancer because of her
chronic disease And so she knewthat she was going to die.
And she had no one and shedidn't want to go into a nursing
(20:59):
home.
So our group was able tosupport her through hospice and
you know what that's like, your,i mean, you have nurses and you
have support, but you're there24, seven And around the clock.
we had people doing differentthings.
I'd go over.
you know, my days were Monday,wednesday and Friday.
(21:20):
I'd go over, get her up in themorning, give her pills.
She had the death that shewanted.
Oh, that's beautiful, and itwas all through Ellen and
support.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
There's something to be said about a beautiful
transition.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yes, and she taught me so much, so much, but she was
a person at Elena that woulddrive me nuts in the beginning.
You know like sometimessomebody would talk long or
something but she would drive menuts.
But then towards the end she Isometimes would look over at her
and she was always cold.
(22:04):
So she always had a coat on anda hat and you know, she was,
you know, just down to nothingAnd still would come to Elena
and it would be like I could seearound her hat.
It looked like a halo and whatshe would come out of her mouth
(22:28):
was so profound Wow, it was ashe like had edited her words
down to the end And so the onlythings that came out were
profound.
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
And there's, you know .
One thing that I've learnedfrom all the deaths is that
there's so many profound lessonsat the end.
Yes, it's such a beautifulteacher.
Yes, you know.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It is such a privilege to be with someone in
their final hours.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And it doesn't have to be traumatic.
No, it doesn't have to be, youknow, like taking horrible news
and doing all that stuff.
It can be somber and sincereand funny.
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
We know that.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
It can be very funny and it can be, you know, moving
and full of just of beautifulmoments and pain and just.
It can be really real andauthentic.
And there's things get realauthentic when you're at the end
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And just as it's such a thrill and an honor to be
with a baby coming into theworld, it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Yeah, do you will go into this part.
You know the the the death part, which is interesting.
You know when grandpa died, youknow I remember him being there
And he's like, ok, that's mygrandfather.
And then he, true, lost breath.
(24:17):
And then he wasn't Right Andthat was the weirdest, most real
thing I've ever seen, becauseit was like oh, there's a couch
Right.
Zero meaning Right, noconnection.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
We were all focused on him And then we just turned
our attention.
He was gone.
We turned our attention and hewas just over here, but that's
not where the focus was.
He had left his body.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's just he wasn't.
You know, some people is likeno longer with us, like that is
so yeah.
It's in and you know we havethis reverence and this thing
for the body, but it's like thebody was like it could have been
.
I don't know this, this, this,you know vase, or this candle
it's the same day it's there'sjust no attachment or meaning to
(25:12):
the vessel, like it.
Just it just put so much intocontext that we're not our meat
vessel, you know exactly, we'renot our container.
We're not our container.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
And okay, what are we going to put on him, you know?
oh, wouldn't it be funny to putthese white shoes on?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
His balleballe, but it was just not a like, a not a
thing.
It wasn't a thing at all.
You know, it's just.
That's so such a profoundlesson, and you can like that
when you're with somebody there,he's like that person's more
there than here.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Yes, yes.
And at the end, when they're inand out and back and forth and
and with Belinda saying you knowwell, where do all the people
go, or one time she, you know,opened her eyes and said I was
just with dad.
And you know, i just said, well, how is he?
(26:14):
He's good.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
That's incredible.
Yeah, i remember.
so you know, for people thatdon't know, my cousin Carson was
31.
Yeah, 31 when he passed andshort battle with cancer
metastasized.
And then there was a hippoendectomy for a young, very
(26:45):
extremely athletic Young man Andhis transition was really
different.
It wasn't a transition ofsomebody that was ready to go
Right, it was almost fighting.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
He fought it.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Being here and there, right, yes.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Because that's who he was.
He was a fighter.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
He was an Air Force veteran, he was a fighter, he
played football.
He fought his entire life.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
He was even competitive with death.
Yes, so of course he wouldfight it.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
Yeah, yeah, because I know I wasn't there obviously
for his passing, but remembereverybody saying how you know
that and like he would leave andthen come back.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Numerous times And you think, okay, that's it And
no.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Was it.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
And one time he even said whoa, did you see what just
happened?
I just died Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Oh man, that is incredible.
Yeah, wow, hmm, there were somany lessons in his death.
Yes, you know There were somany lessons in his death.
That's one of the things that Ilearned about it, so there was
(28:16):
just so many lessons in it.
You know we didn't see eye toeye, you know majority of our
lives, but they were like soprofoundly grateful to him.
Yeah, you know, so profoundlygrateful.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
And then he came back to Marshall Yeah To die, and
that his wife allowed that.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, and he's like amazing.
Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
So you're from a small town inMarshall, central Michigan.
Yes, town of 7000.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
6800.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
6800 right now.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Today.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Well, 600 and 700.
6700 and 99, since you're here,Exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
I'll go back to 6800 when you go back Exactly On
Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
What was it like growing up in a small town and
so much kind of death happening?
What was that like?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, i didn't exactly grow up in Marshall, but
I've been back since I wasnewly married, so a long time.
The thing I love about Marshallis that the people are
(29:46):
passionate, so they haveconvictions and so they
sometimes fight.
Okay, but if somebody needssomething, they're there for you
.
So we had so many people do somany wonderful things for us
(30:08):
with all of those deaths becausewe just had one after another,
after another.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
People in town would be like oh Right.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I could see you walking around and be like oh
Right, oh, i'm so sorry aboutfilling the blank.
You know they brought food andthey just did so many things for
us to support us, and one ofthe really cool things they did
(30:34):
at Christmas time.
Carson died in November and soat Christmas time they set up
some trees and they wereMemorial Christmas trees that
you could decorate.
So Thanksgiving, all the kidswere there and the relatives
(30:55):
were there and we all madedecorations for Carson's tree
And then it was freezing coldand the kids and Sydney and I
went and decorated the tree andit was such a bonding awesome
experience for us.
That was really cool And that'ssomething only Marshall can do.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Like Grandpa would say that Marshall takes care of
its widows.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
He did And six months before he died they came back
to Marshall and because he knewthat Marshall would take care of
mom Six months, that's amazing,it was six months.
(31:43):
Yeah, it was such a shortperiod of time, wow, wow.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
What was it like?
I mean, i would imagine there'sgood things and bad things
about being such a small town.
What are the cons?
Speaker 2 (32:03):
The conflicts And everyone you know thinks they
know who you are and thinks theyknow your business.
But, man, the good thingsoutweigh the bad They really do
(32:25):
for me.
Yeah, i never.
I didn't want to raise my kidsin one spot and have them never
move, and that's exactly what Idid.
That was not my plan.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
But there's something beautiful to that right.
There's something beautiful toknowing everybody and everybody
knows you.
There's a lot of country songsabout that, you know.
the country music industry hasbuilt a whole library of music
based on that concept, right.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yes.
And for me to go into an Allenon meeting, my first Allen on
meeting and seeing my nurseryschool teacher, I thought, oh
crap, she's going to know.
And it took me about threemeetings before I figured out.
Oh wait, a minute, she's herefor the same reason I am, Yeah.
And then she continued to teachme by starting that group that
(33:35):
we work through the stepworkbook and she taught me to
her death.
She ended up with Alzheimer'sand I would see pictures.
She ended up moving to Floridawith her daughter and I'd see
pictures of her with the mostbeautiful smile.
She was just happy as can be.
(33:57):
She taught me so much, Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
What was your name?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Rosemary.
She was a beautiful, beautifulwoman and she ended up her first
husband died and she starteddating the Methodist minister
and he lived across the streetfrom us And they were so cute.
(34:27):
They were so cute and he justadored her.
So they'd come over for dinnerand he'd say now we're going to
have dinner and then you need toleave.
They were so stinking cute.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
At like four o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
And they were in there probably late seventies
then.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
What are some of the benefits?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Of living in a small town, The support you don't have
to explain, They know.
You know you've lost yourmother, father, sister, nephew.
They know all that If theysupport me, they'll support my
(35:23):
children and vice versa.
So if they support my children,they'll also support me.
And when something bad happens,they rally around.
You know they're havingcountless families that maybe
they've lost their home to afire and or cancer or whatever.
(35:49):
And they just rally around andall of a sudden you know they've
raised enough money to get theperson through And they may not
even know them.
They may even know the name, oroh, that's my doctor's daughter
And so I'm going to support her.
Wow, And some of my children'steachers taught me, They taught
(36:20):
my children, And some even havetaught grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Really Yes, wow, that's incredible Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Geez.
Not too long ago I was atShuler's and a restaurant for
dinner And with some friends andthe friends are older than I am
He had had Mr Ickes was ourEnglish teacher.
He had had Mr Ickes, i had MrIckes.
He, mr Ickes, came to Billy'sopen house my son's open house
(36:56):
and made him a book, made him alittle book that he drew
pictures in.
Mr Ickes was at Shuler's GeezAnd one time during a conference
I said you don't remember me, iwas really quiet.
He said what's your name And Itold him and he said oh, you sat
(37:16):
in the second seat in the firstrow.
I remember you.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That's incredible Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
So you can really understand the context of a town
or a community.
Right, It's like you reallyunderstand the fabric of what
that community's like.
Yes, I mean we were talkingabout earlier today about kind
of that history that SyndromeMichigan has, about the
(37:55):
sanatoriums, about the Kellogg's.
You know, the circumcision push, the puritanism kind of the
sexual repression.
What do you think is thateffect that's been in the larger
community?
Speaker 2 (38:13):
I had never thought about it until we started
discussing it today.
I'd never thought of that, butit is rampant And there have
been some issues in our town.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, And it's so much about it and just stems
from unresolved trauma.
right, Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
So much.
Of it is just those patternsrepeating.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
And not being at trust.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
And not being addressed.
Yeah, just like Alan startsaddressing those things and
starts creating those scenariosAnd I don't know many other
things.
I know Constellations does itAnd maybe you know some other
modalities address that stuff,and just I'm trying to the thing
(39:12):
that I'm just kind of workingon not working on but just very
curious about.
It's like how do you addressunresolved trauma in a communal
fabric, right, and it's like howmany people in that community
does it take to change themomentum and address the things
(39:34):
that need to be healed?
Because there's no doubt thatit's an incredible community
that has all this benefit andall these good things, right,
like, how do you address andmake the community stronger by
giving an infrastructure forunresolved trauma?
Speaker 2 (39:51):
I think it takes brave people to step up, step
out and speak the truth And pullback that veil And not let it
continue And pretend it's nothappening.
Yeah, That's the scariest part.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, that's the scariest part, for most people
is to look at it, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
And I think that's for me.
What Allinon did in the verybeginning was looking at it,
saying this is what's happening,Not hiding it, Not trying to be
the perfect family and show theworld that, oh yeah, we're all
fine, But pulling back thecurtain, looking at it and
(40:41):
saying this is what's going on,And with my sisters and I we're
all very, very close, But we hidthat from each other.
What was going on in our ownhomes?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
So in an Allinon meeting, you know what I learned
.
What fine stands for Fucking,insane, neurotic and exhausted.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
We were all fine, all of us, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
So okay, that's.
I think that's a good segueinto kind of the next gear into
this conversation.
is that okay?
so where does you and yoursisters right, and one of your
sisters is my mother, yes, youknow clearly, this is what this
conversation is.
So what are your sisters and mymother and tell me about?
(41:36):
what's the three legs of thestool concept?
What's that?
Where did that?
what does that come from?
How do you address it?
How do you, how do youunderstand that, that family
dynamic?
Speaker 2 (41:52):
So my parents were a unit and the three of us were a
unit And my dad was driven.
He was, he traveled a lot.
He, you know, in later yearsowned his own business and so
(42:16):
and my mom was supporting him.
Like my sisters and I, ibelieve that our mom was
addicted to our dad and and theworld revolved around him, so
she was really busy.
He was a busy man.
He was a busy man And so she wasbusy taking care of him and
(42:42):
trying to control, and you knowlike interference and you know
like right right Run that allowthat whole show.
And then there were the threeof us.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
I'm gonna keep the Benny Hill thing going on.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Right Yeah.
And one of his business cohortsalways referred to him as PT,
PT Barnum.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
And it's kind of it's kind of was.
Yeah, he kind of was Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
So there was a lot to deal with, but then that kind
of left the three of us to fendfor ourselves and my role as the
oldest.
I felt and and I think I wastold this I mean they always
said take care of your sisters.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Watch out for your sisters.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
What a huge amount of responsibility.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
Right, I did something wrong which my
youngest sister was known to doonce in a while.
It was my responsibility towatch out for her and make sure
she didn't do that.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Do you think it's?
it comes as a defense mechanismfor you guys to come together
as that triangle of?
Speaker 2 (44:14):
Yes, so when we lost, when Cindy and I lost one leg,
the stool fell down Big timeThat was.
That was devastating.
It was not our first loss.
Our dad had died first, butthis was the really and she was.
(44:36):
She was not old, she was 50.
She was 52 or 55.
Speaker 1 (44:44):
Yeah, 53.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
Somewhere in there.
So she was not old.
It was too young for her to die, and that, just you know,
knocked the legs out on it fromunder us.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Because there wasn't.
Do you think it was because ofthe proximity of you three that
there wasn't space for each oneto be like an independent unit
on your own?
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Right, we were all.
We were Amashed Once, totally,totally, we were one unit, one
stool.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
I couldn't imagine that what that's like, what
losing her would be like.
It was awful, it's like you die.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
What do you mean?
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Like a piece of you Right.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Dying Right.
Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Like you literally feel like a piece of you is
dying, like your arm and leg andlike Right Lung.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yeah, and you walk around afterwards and think
don't people know that?
you know I'm missing an arm.
How could you expect me to dealwith anything?
I'm missing an arm?
Speaker 1 (46:06):
No, i don't know What gifts were in that transition
Um or were there any?
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Oh, absolutely Oh.
She had the best death ofanyone I know.
I mean she was like a queen.
She lived in this gorgeousapartment that.
I mean she couldn't afford Umit was a cool place.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
It was.
It was a very cool place.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
And so many people came to visit her and talk with
her and bring her presence in,and and Cindy would just.
You know, what do you wanttoday?
You want a baloney sandwich.
I mean because?
we ate baloney sandwiches whenwe were little um with Fritos on
(47:01):
them And um, she, just she hadthe very best death And we
laughed and we cried, and andthe family all came together.
It was, i mean, nobody couldask for more.
(47:24):
She got everything she wantedin her funeral.
We discussed that And you knowwhat?
This is one of the lessons I'velearned with um Belinda staff.
One night I was, it was my turnto um sleep on the couch next to
(47:48):
her bed And um, in the middleof the night I woke up and she
was awake and and I started tosay you know, Belinda, i just
want to tell you.
And she said, nope, we're notdoing that.
I was going to say goodbye Andshe said, no, we're not doing it
, and I didn't.
(48:10):
And then, um, my husband hadParkinson's, so I knew what was
coming.
I didn't think it was going tobe as fast as it was, but, um,
we had, you know, kind of hadthe conversation of what he
(48:30):
wanted when he died, and but not, you know, like someday, yeah,
not concrete conversation.
And he just kept saying, well, Iwant to be with you.
I want to, i just want to bewith you And um, and he never
acknowledged that he was dyingAnd you know he was in a hospice
(48:55):
and you know he's in a hospitalbed and he was at home, but he
never acknowledged that he wasdying.
So we never had the conversation, And what I've learned is to
have those conversations, nomatter how hard they are.
Have those difficultconversations.
(49:15):
It's so important because oncethey're gone you don't have the
opportunity, and that'ssomething I hope I will keep
with me and and spread thatmessage.
Speaker 3 (49:35):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
I mean, I know that there's never a good time to
have that conversation.
No but it's so important, it'sso important, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:49):
I felt robbed because I didn't have it with both of
them.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Were there things that weren't said, that you
wanted to say?
Speaker 2 (50:00):
No, i mean, he knew I loved him.
He knew that, Um, and I knew heloved me.
So there wasn't anything umunsaid other than you know, what
do you expect me to do when youdie?
What do you expect me to live?
(50:20):
How am I going to do that?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
Was it almost like asking for permission to
continue?
Speaker 2 (50:35):
Probably I didn't want to.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
That's big.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
The person who knew me the best, saw me, was gone.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
And I didn't want to be here without him.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 2 (51:15):
That was the most difficult for me.
Belinda was really, really,really hard.
But losing Dave because he wasalways there, he was there for
me with Belinda, i think Davewas the most difficult.
Speaker 1 (51:43):
Do you feel now that you can?
Speaker 2 (51:48):
I feel like I can honor him by living and caring
on Because he believed in me, heloved me, he knew I could do it
.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
So if it would be a dishonor to him if I didn't
continue to live, That, in hishonor, he'll continue.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Give me goosebumps.
Wow, is there such that dangerof following Right?
You know Right.
Yeah, that happens so often.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
And that we were talking about earlier.
That happened with Carson andBullitt.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Yes, so let's talk about that a little bit.
So my aunt is diagnosed withangiosarcoma And then it
metastasized to her.
(53:05):
She broke her hip.
That's how they found out thatshe had this cancer.
She went to pick up a letterthat fell on the ground and bent
over and collapsed And thenthey saw see that her femoral
head is dead Right And has a.
She breaks her hip Right Andthen they find out that it is
(53:29):
cancer And within four monthsfour months she's gone Right And
she's a middle child Well,she's the youngest right And her
son that they were very close,extremely close.
Shortly after developscongiosarcoma.
Speaker 2 (53:56):
Yes, Six months to the day after his mother died,
he had surgery on his hip toremove assist.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
So it was the same hip like the left leg.
Yes, the left hip and hisfemoral head was dying or
decaying.
Yes, And he has a full hipreplacement.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
He had a full hip replacement And then when he had
the hip first they removedassist.
Then it was maybe, maybe sixmonths later that they did the
hip replacement and found thecongiosarcoma.
So then it was probably sixmonths after that that they did.
(54:48):
They had to do ahemipelopectomy.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Hemipelopectomy, that's a removal of the full leg
and a quarter of the hip right,yes, of the pelvic foot bone.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Yes, and then it was maybe six months later that he
was gone.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Because it had metastasized those lungs.
Speaker 2 (55:13):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yes, so it talks.
I mean probabilistically twodifferent types of
extraordinarily rare cancers.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
Metastasizing and presenting in the same way.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Same place.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Same place And then both people passing not to say
that, you know, this is medicalevidence, but it has a strong
suggestion that there'ssomething more at play.
Absolutely, What a lesson.
Speaker 2 (55:52):
Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
You know, and in constellation work we know, that
there's books out there.
I think I can't remember whathis name is, but there's a book
out there called Even If ItCosts Me My Life.
Speaker 3 (56:05):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (56:06):
Yeah, That's like I'm so loyal to you that I will
even sacrifice my life out ofunconscious loyalty to the
family system.
Wow, So that gives megoosebumps.
I mean that is the most powerfulforce in the world is that
loyalty.
(56:26):
Because, if you know, and thatgift that Carson and we called
my Aunt Belinda, aunt Boo, gaveme, is that if a kid, you know,
a young man, super athlete,elite athlete, air Force veteran
, combat veteran, you know,officer, us Air Force Academy,
(56:51):
you know, loved by many rockstar type type of dude, right
Rock, super rock star, there's amural at the Air Force Academy
of him you know, superstar rightThat if none of that could have
stopped him and that loyalty isso strong than anything is
(57:15):
possible, Right.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
And he would even say I want to be with Mama Bird.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Man, oh, and I remember Aunt Boo not wanting to
be here, right?
You know that's the reality,right?
Just I just remember her notwanting to be here and her
saying it you know, and it'sjust so heartbreaking.
Yeah, you know, and it justmakes me angry too.
Speaker 2 (57:48):
Yeah.
You know, because she was sostinking funny.
Yeah, she was fun and she wasawesome.
Speaker 3 (57:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (57:59):
But she, she, she was finally able to let go of her
husband at the very last second,but I don't know if she ever
really let go.
Speaker 3 (58:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:17):
I mean she divorced him, but I don't believe she
ever let go.
Speaker 3 (58:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
I mean, i just know how.
And you put into the unresolvedtrauma and to that, into that
mix and it's all thismanifestation of what that looks
like.
You know, and it's just sopainful that there is an
alternative.
But also you have to consent topeople's destinies.
Yes, you know, and respect themand say I consent to that being
(58:49):
your path.
Yeah, you know it's so hardbecause you don't want to.
And you know the train, youknow my man, i'm going to get
emotional.
My mom used to say it's like Iknow the train's coming and it's
going to blow everything up.
It's like and there's nothingyou can do about it.
You know the train wreckscoming right, like the bridge is
(59:12):
blown up and the train's on itsway and it's not going to stop.
And you just like, please, no,just so catastrophic, but to
consent to the, to that, to thatjourney.
You know that's so tough.
That's such a tough thingbecause we all want to control,
(59:34):
right, right.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Yeah, and when she was first diagnosed I knew she
wouldn't go through treatmentand I was angry.
But then I understood Yeah,it's her choice, she got to die
(59:56):
the way she wanted to And Idon't know, as I mean, i think
treatment would have maybeprolonged her death.
Who wants to live like that?
Yeah, it never would have curedher.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:18):
But what I mean?
such profound lessons in it.
You know, it's like you almosthave to consent to learning all
those lessons and it being theway it is right.
And we, i know we reminisce andwe say, man, it would have been
awesome if they were here to beable to go through this.
But that's the, that's thetrade off.
You know that's the trade offAnd that's okay.
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
That's the hard part.
Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
That's the shitty part.
Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
They're just like that's okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
I'm glad we're here.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
I'm so glad I'm here.
I'm so very glad.
I'm so glad I did this.
I'm so glad I took this thistime for myself and for my
journey and my healing.
And I'm glad I did it for mykids.
They don't want to deal with anutcase.
(01:01:25):
They've dealt with me enough.
Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
I mean, but this, this is interesting too And I
and I'm, you know, when I wastalking, so I took a comedy
class, right, i stand up comedyclass, and the guy was a shout
out to Michael Panzeca.
So Michael was like a familytherapist, you know, type of
addiction specialist, kind ofperson, and that there's this,
(01:01:57):
this like a wellness place herein South Florida, and you know
he was like you know, no, no,nothing to do with consolation,
never talked about consolation.
See, we know what a familyconsolation was.
And he's like you don't treatthe addict man.
He's like kind of this laidback guy smoke cigarettes, and
he's like you don't treat thefamily man.
(01:02:17):
You don't treat the, the, theaddict, you treat the whole
family.
He's like when, when the addictand when you said that when the
addict learns how to dance salsaand steps dancing merengue with
the family, that's what,literally what he said stops
dancing merengue with the family, they either have to learn how
to dance salsa or they stoppeddancing.
(01:02:39):
And you're like, when he saidthat, i was like, oh my gosh, i
was so profound.
Yeah, you know, and and andthat's what happens in many when
you solve, when you're notsolved, but when you heal the
patterns of trauma.
People stop dancing salsa.
(01:02:59):
They stop you know, they stopdancing that old dance that
happened, that you know you belike Hey, every time I've done A
and B, c's happen.
And then you do A and B and itdoesn't.
It's like a chord that doesn'tresolve.
You don't want a song.
It's like and they, you know,we expect the court, the song to
(01:03:21):
resolve, like the court and thebuildup to resolve.
It's like it doesn't resolveAnd you're like this is weird,
what has changed?
And so that song eitherdissipates and fades away and
you create a new song, or you goand and or leave the music
altogether.
Right, it's like you can.
That's.
It's that dynamic that you likeand it's not.
(01:03:43):
I don't.
I don't think it's only withaddicts, i think it's with all
family dynamics, right, and thatyou won't be the same person
that you were yesterday andyou'll go back and you're not
going to be the same person Andthe whole ecosystem will have to
adapt to that new version ofwho you are And they'll choose
to adapt as you get itdifferently.
You see, and I'm like man, thatwe used to have this thing and
(01:04:06):
it just no longer happens.
It's so, so, so profound andinteresting.
It's a lot of shifting.
Speaker 2 (01:04:20):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
So what are some lessons that you're taking for
this weekend?
Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Oh man, so many, so many, so many.
I, i'm still processing, wow,still processing, and I, i think
I will be for quite some time,yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
You got to let the dust settle for a long time.
Yeah, it's going to, and it'sgoing to settle in a completely
new place.
Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
It'll be interesting, really interesting, yeah.
So thank you, you're welcomeFor your part in this and you've
had a huge part in it.
Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Thank you for being open.
I love you you.
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