Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Tomorrow night at CU Boulder. Ihave got it for you. My friends
at the Steamboat Institute are taking itto the college campuses, as they are
prone to do, and they havea phenomenal debate happening tomorrow night over the
following resolution. Be it resolved.AI poses a threat to our democracy.
Arguing the affirmative is Katie Pavletch.She's a Fox News contributor and editor of
(00:22):
town hall dot Com. Arguing thenegative is Brent Orles, Senior Fellow American
Enterprise Institute, and Hadley Heath Manningis going to moderate. She's absolutely fantastic.
It's happening tomorrow night in Chancellor's Hallin the Case Building. You do
have to RSVP for tickets, butyou can do that on a link that
I put on the blog today.But right right now, I'd like to
(00:43):
welcome Brent and Katie to the show. Now, first of all, I
want to start with you. Brent. You are in a little give you
guys a little bit of background.On our show, we talk about AI.
We have a futurist that comes onthe show once a month and we
talk about artificial intelligence and the factthat it's having on certain industries and various
things quite a bit. And thisis one of my big concerns that we
(01:07):
see technology moving at such a ratethat it is going to become impossible for
the average person to see a videoonline where Joe Biden talks about how much
he hates black people, and thetechnology is going to be so convincing that
it is going to create a distortionin our system where people can no longer
(01:30):
believe what they see. So that'skind of where I'm coming from in what
your conversation is going to be.But Brent, I want to start with
you because you say it's not goingto be a threat to our democracy.
Where did you come to that conclusion? Well, I should qualify it just
a little bit. Anything, anynew technology, and especially an information technology
(01:55):
like AI can potentially be a problematicand a democracy. Right. We've seen
it over and over throughout history thatwhen new information technology comes on the scene,
it frequently does cause lots of problems. Right. But the reality is
historical reality is that over time,we adjust and we accommodate and we learn
(02:22):
how to live with the technology.And that's super important because politics is not
the only thing that we have toworry about AI is going to do a
tremendous amount of good in our economy, in our world, for our health
(02:44):
and a whole vast array of ourlives. It's going to do a tremendous
amount of good. So it's alwaysa matter of balancing costs and benefits and
then working to mitigate the harms.And I think that it's as true with
AI as it was with the printingpress, or with a telegraph, or
(03:04):
with television. These things have allbeen long term, very good for us,
and I think AI will be too. Katie, I want to come
to you because you're arguing that,yes, this is a threat to our
democracy. Give me kind of athumbnail sketch of your view. Well,
first, I was in San Franciscoabout a month ago, just driving through
(03:28):
for our work projects separate from this, and every billboard on the side of
the road driving through San Francisco andthat area was about AI and a new
company developing and working on some kindof new AI. And the term AI
really to me is just new technology. It's just an advancement of things that
we already know how to do.And I would also say in the question
(03:53):
of it being a threat, andmaybe there'll be more agreement to oronight than
disagreement on this question. But I'mreally looking forward to discussing it. Is
that when you have pioneers in thetechnology space, like Elon Musk and others
in Silicon Valley who've been at theforefront of developing certain technology saying that AI
(04:14):
needs to be looked at in aserious way and does pose big threats,
I'd say they're the experts and thatshould be taken seriously. The other thing,
and from my perspective that I'm comingwith tomorrow night, is I work
in Washington, d C. Coveringgovernment and government politics and government abuse and
the threat that I see currently happeningwith AI, and there's plenty of documented
(04:36):
evidence of this is the federal governmentusing AI against its people. And when
you have the democracy and a governmentwith bureaucrats in charge and doing things behind
the scenes to censor or to pushthings in a certain direction in terms of
a public debate that's hidden from thevery public that it is being implemented on,
(05:00):
that is a threat to quote democracy. And I would also say,
you know, there's this issue aboutthe truth and what people can you know?
Can they believe what they see.We've seen with Google, Gemini and
their research that when it was asked, you know, please give me a
picture of George Washington, they produceda man who was not George Washington at
(05:21):
all. So I think there arebig concerns about that. But I'm coming
from the perspective of how this isbeing currently abused, but not from the
perspective that it is a threat toeverything in our country. You went much
deeper on this immediately, both ofyou, than my little Am I going
to be able to trust a videoI see on Facebook? But ultimately I'm
(05:46):
in the camp where I think artificialintelligence is going to make our lives better.
But my frustration is they keep tellingme that they're making artificial intelligence that
can make music and art, andI'm like, can you just make AI
that can clean my kitchen? Thatwould be a great starting point for me
personally. But how impactful do youthink that artificial intelligence, if at all,
(06:06):
is going to be in this upcomingelection cycle? Let's start there,
because we're really in the very beginningof this ascent of artificial intelligence. To
your point, Brent, we barelybegun to scratch the surface on what this
is going to be So what arewe looking at in your view in the
twenty twenty four election. So humanbeings are so clever, right, that's
(06:31):
our it's our superpower, it's oursuper weakness. You know that we that
we we take hold of these newtechnologies and we do unexpected things with them.
I don't think there's any doubt.I think we've already had some.
I believe there was, you know, a robocall that imitated Joe Biden yep
(06:53):
and caused us. So I thinkit's already happened at least one and since
probably going to happen. You know, these kinds of things are going to
happen throughout the campaign. But we'realready in that adjustment phase as well.
I mean, we all live throughtwenty sixteen and twenty twenty when the Internet
(07:15):
was used to funnel you know,false, untrue stories, you know foreign
you know, attacks on our electionsystem. All that stuff has already happened.
So it's not the first time tobeen to this rodeo, and I
(07:39):
think that people will have will havetheir antenna up. Can I trust what
I'm seeing? Can I trust whatI'm hearing? And I think that what's
likely to happen because of that isthat when false stuff is pushed into you
know, the political ecosphere, there'sjust been a lot of eyes watching,
(08:05):
right. And I'm not talking aboutthe government. I'm just talking about citizens
that will raise the alarm. Thisisn't true, this isn't right, this
is a fake. In the longerterm, actually, I think that AI
can probably be deployed to protect ourelections by helping to identify false content and
(08:26):
so that. I don't think thattechnology is fully there, But I really
do have faith that the American peopleare you know, have wised up to
Internet. Faith, You're going tolook for it. Your faith in the
American voter is much higher than mine, Brent, because if you saw my
(08:48):
email where people are sending me themost outrageous stories you have ever seen,
and they send them, why areyou talking about this? I'm like,
because this is obviously fake. It'snot real. This is why do a
Google. I mean, I spendI can't tell you how much of my
time I spend trying to get peopleto just think critically of what they see.
Katie, I'd like your thoughts onthat. I completely agree. I
(09:15):
think that there's a healthy dose ofskepticism being put onto people's choices and the
decisions they make based on what they'reseeing. Now, of course, obviously
you'll always have people who want tobelieve certain things and they're not open to
another perspective e yor point of vieweven on a simple story. But generally
I think people do think through whatthey're consuming, what doesn't look right,
(09:39):
which might be off comparing it tomaybe another source of information. But the
issue that I find with you thisquestion of okay, well, if we
use AI to determine what information isfalse AI, what you put into it,
So who's then make the decisions aboutwhat should or should not be published
(10:03):
or seeing online. And as we'veseen over the course of the past five
years, that can be helpful insome ways to dispel misinformation, as they
say, or false narratives or thingsthat are not true. But it also
can be used to censor political viewpointsthat people don't like. And so this
is not an example of necessarily AI. But Twitter is just basically a technology
(10:26):
that eventually will warp into some kindof AI or X now, as Elon
Musk calls it. You know,Twitter was used to censor important stories ahead
of the twenty twenty election, andso you know there's a lot of these
that paths you can go down totalk about, well, what kind of
information should be out there and whatshould we should have not put out there
(10:48):
allow people to see. But behindthat isn't just a machine at this point
making those decisions. It's people whohave certain political perspectives doing that. So
there's a broader question of censorship whenit comes to those kind of tactics.
I think it's a fascinating opportunity forsome entrepreneurs or entrepreneurial that's a hard word
(11:11):
for me, apparently, a personwho works in tech to say we're going
to create a true fact checker AIwhere you said, look, we're going
to instruct it. Instruction number one, do not favor one political viewpoint over
another. And if you start fromthat perspective, then it could be very
useful. It's just to your point, Katie garbage in, garbage out,
(11:31):
like whoever's programming this stuff, you'regoing to get the result that you ask
for. You can hear Brent Oraland Katie Pavlets tomorrow night at CU Boulder.
The debate starts at six point thirty, and you have to have tickets.
There are some tickets you have toregister ahead of time, and I
put a link on the blog tothis event today. Guys. This is
a fascinating topic because to your point, Brent, I think eventually we'll get
(11:54):
a handle on it, right,but now it just feels like the wild
West where everybody's just trying to sortthrough and figure out where the truth lies.
So getting to the other side ofthat is going to be really interesting.
And you know, there's an oldcurse, may you live in interesting
times, and I feel like wemight be living an interesting times now.
One last question before you, guysgo Will there be fisticuffs at this debate
(12:18):
or will it remain civilized? No? No, we're we are I think
both committed to where there is disagreement, that it should be a good disagreement,
enlightening disagreements. And no, Idon't expect any any fisticuffs and I
(12:39):
expect to have a good time.Well, enjoy yourself. Cuffs on my
end. Okay, perfect, youenjoy yourself, and I think, go
go ahead. Camp brought her issueis just having a conversation about this even
if we disagree or agree on Thanks, So looking forward to it and thanks
to the Steambonus having us absolutely.I hope you guys enjoy one of the
Boulder's fantastic restaurants. Thanks for joiningus today. Thank you, thank you,
(13:00):
guys. I'm doing that. Therewe go.
Tomorrow night at CU Boulder. Ihave got it for you. My friends
at the Steamboat Institute are taking itto the college campuses, as they are
prone to do, and they havea phenomenal debate happening tomorrow night over the
following resolution. Be it resolved.AI poses a threat to our democracy.
Arguing the affirmative is Katie Pavletch.She's a Fox News contributor and editor of
(00:22):
town hall dot Com. Arguing thenegative is Brent Orles, Senior Fellow American
Enterprise Institute, and Hadley Heath Manningis going to moderate. She's absolutely fantastic.
It's happening tomorrow night in Chancellor's Hallin the Case Building. You do
have to RSVP for tickets, butyou can do that on a link that
I put on the blog today.But right right now, I'd like to
(00:43):
welcome Brent and Katie to the show. Now, first of all, I
want to start with you. Brent. You are in a little give you
guys a little bit of background.On our show, we talk about AI.
We have a futurist that comes onthe show once a month and we
talk about artificial intelligence and the factthat it's having on certain industries and various
things quite a bit. And thisis one of my big concerns that we
(01:07):
see technology moving at such a ratethat it is going to become impossible for
the average person to see a videoonline where Joe Biden talks about how much
he hates black people, and thetechnology is going to be so convincing that
it is going to create a distortionin our system where people can no longer
(01:30):
believe what they see. So that'skind of where I'm coming from in what
your conversation is going to be.But Brent, I want to start with
you because you say it's not goingto be a threat to our democracy.
Where did you come to that conclusion? Well, I should qualify it just
a little bit. Anything, anynew technology, and especially an information technology
(01:55):
like AI can potentially be a problematicand a democracy. Right. We've seen
it over and over throughout history thatwhen new information technology comes on the scene,
it frequently does cause lots of problems. Right. But the reality is
historical reality is that over time,we adjust and we accommodate and we learn
(02:22):
how to live with the technology.And that's super important because politics is not
the only thing that we have toworry about AI is going to do a
tremendous amount of good in our economy, in our world, for our health
(02:44):
and a whole vast array of ourlives. It's going to do a tremendous
amount of good. So it's alwaysa matter of balancing costs and benefits and
then working to mitigate the harms.And I think that it's as true with
AI as it was with the printingpress, or with a telegraph, or
(03:04):
with television. These things have allbeen long term, very good for us,
and I think AI will be too. Katie, I want to come
to you because you're arguing that,yes, this is a threat to our
democracy. Give me kind of athumbnail sketch of your view. Well,
first, I was in San Franciscoabout a month ago, just driving through
(03:28):
for our work projects separate from this, and every billboard on the side of
the road driving through San Francisco andthat area was about AI and a new
company developing and working on some kindof new AI. And the term AI
really to me is just new technology. It's just an advancement of things that
we already know how to do.And I would also say in the question
(03:53):
of it being a threat, andmaybe there'll be more agreement to oronight than
disagreement on this question. But I'mreally looking forward to discussing it. Is
that when you have pioneers in thetechnology space, like Elon Musk and others
in Silicon Valley who've been at theforefront of developing certain technology saying that AI
(04:14):
needs to be looked at in aserious way and does pose big threats,
I'd say they're the experts and thatshould be taken seriously. The other thing,
and from my perspective that I'm comingwith tomorrow night, is I work
in Washington, d C. Coveringgovernment and government politics and government abuse and
the threat that I see currently happeningwith AI, and there's plenty of documented
(04:36):
evidence of this is the federal governmentusing AI against its people. And when
you have the democracy and a governmentwith bureaucrats in charge and doing things behind
the scenes to censor or to pushthings in a certain direction in terms of
a public debate that's hidden from thevery public that it is being implemented on,
(05:00):
that is a threat to quote democracy. And I would also say,
you know, there's this issue aboutthe truth and what people can you know?
Can they believe what they see.We've seen with Google, Gemini and
their research that when it was asked, you know, please give me a
picture of George Washington, they produceda man who was not George Washington at
(05:21):
all. So I think there arebig concerns about that. But I'm coming
from the perspective of how this isbeing currently abused, but not from the
perspective that it is a threat toeverything in our country. You went much
deeper on this immediately, both ofyou, than my little Am I going
to be able to trust a videoI see on Facebook? But ultimately I'm
(05:46):
in the camp where I think artificialintelligence is going to make our lives better.
But my frustration is they keep tellingme that they're making artificial intelligence that
can make music and art, andI'm like, can you just make AI
that can clean my kitchen? Thatwould be a great starting point for me
personally. But how impactful do youthink that artificial intelligence, if at all,
(06:06):
is going to be in this upcomingelection cycle? Let's start there,
because we're really in the very beginningof this ascent of artificial intelligence. To
your point, Brent, we barelybegun to scratch the surface on what this
is going to be So what arewe looking at in your view in the
twenty twenty four election. So humanbeings are so clever, right, that's
(06:31):
our it's our superpower, it's oursuper weakness. You know that we that
we we take hold of these newtechnologies and we do unexpected things with them.
I don't think there's any doubt.I think we've already had some.
I believe there was, you know, a robocall that imitated Joe Biden yep
(06:53):
and caused us. So I thinkit's already happened at least one and since
probably going to happen. You know, these kinds of things are going to
happen throughout the campaign. But we'realready in that adjustment phase as well.
I mean, we all live throughtwenty sixteen and twenty twenty when the Internet
(07:15):
was used to funnel you know,false, untrue stories, you know foreign
you know, attacks on our electionsystem. All that stuff has already happened.
So it's not the first time tobeen to this rodeo, and I
(07:39):
think that people will have will havetheir antenna up. Can I trust what
I'm seeing? Can I trust whatI'm hearing? And I think that what's
likely to happen because of that isthat when false stuff is pushed into you
know, the political ecosphere, there'sjust been a lot of eyes watching,
(08:05):
right. And I'm not talking aboutthe government. I'm just talking about citizens
that will raise the alarm. Thisisn't true, this isn't right, this
is a fake. In the longerterm, actually, I think that AI
can probably be deployed to protect ourelections by helping to identify false content and
(08:26):
so that. I don't think thattechnology is fully there, But I really
do have faith that the American peopleare you know, have wised up to
Internet. Faith, You're going tolook for it. Your faith in the
American voter is much higher than mine, Brent, because if you saw my
(08:48):
email where people are sending me themost outrageous stories you have ever seen,
and they send them, why areyou talking about this? I'm like,
because this is obviously fake. It'snot real. This is why do a
Google. I mean, I spendI can't tell you how much of my
time I spend trying to get peopleto just think critically of what they see.
Katie, I'd like your thoughts onthat. I completely agree. I
(09:15):
think that there's a healthy dose ofskepticism being put onto people's choices and the
decisions they make based on what they'reseeing. Now, of course, obviously
you'll always have people who want tobelieve certain things and they're not open to
another perspective e yor point of vieweven on a simple story. But generally
I think people do think through whatthey're consuming, what doesn't look right,
(09:39):
which might be off comparing it tomaybe another source of information. But the
issue that I find with you thisquestion of okay, well, if we
use AI to determine what information isfalse AI, what you put into it,
So who's then make the decisions aboutwhat should or should not be published
(10:03):
or seeing online. And as we'veseen over the course of the past five
years, that can be helpful insome ways to dispel misinformation, as they
say, or false narratives or thingsthat are not true. But it also
can be used to censor political viewpointsthat people don't like. And so this
is not an example of necessarily AI. But Twitter is just basically a technology
(10:26):
that eventually will warp into some kindof AI or X now, as Elon
Musk calls it. You know,Twitter was used to censor important stories ahead
of the twenty twenty election, andso you know there's a lot of these
that paths you can go down totalk about, well, what kind of
information should be out there and whatshould we should have not put out there
(10:48):
allow people to see. But behindthat isn't just a machine at this point
making those decisions. It's people whohave certain political perspectives doing that. So
there's a broader question of censorship whenit comes to those kind of tactics.
I think it's a fascinating opportunity forsome entrepreneurs or entrepreneurial that's a hard word
(11:11):
for me, apparently, a personwho works in tech to say we're going
to create a true fact checker AIwhere you said, look, we're going
to instruct it. Instruction number one, do not favor one political viewpoint over
another. And if you start fromthat perspective, then it could be very
useful. It's just to your point, Katie garbage in, garbage out,
(11:31):
like whoever's programming this stuff, you'regoing to get the result that you ask
for. You can hear Brent Oraland Katie Pavlets tomorrow night at CU Boulder.
The debate starts at six point thirty, and you have to have tickets.
There are some tickets you have toregister ahead of time, and I
put a link on the blog tothis event today. Guys. This is
a fascinating topic because to your point, Brent, I think eventually we'll get
(11:54):
a handle on it, right,but now it just feels like the wild
West where everybody's just trying to sortthrough and figure out where the truth lies.
So getting to the other side ofthat is going to be really interesting.
And you know, there's an oldcurse, may you live in interesting
times, and I feel like wemight be living an interesting times now.
One last question before you, guysgo Will there be fisticuffs at this debate
(12:18):
or will it remain civilized? No? No, we're we are I think
both committed to where there is disagreement, that it should be a good disagreement,
enlightening disagreements. And no, Idon't expect any any fisticuffs and I
(12:39):
expect to have a good time.Well, enjoy yourself. Cuffs on my
end. Okay, perfect, youenjoy yourself, and I think, go
go ahead. Camp brought her issueis just having a conversation about this even
if we disagree or agree on Thanks, So looking forward to it and thanks
to the Steambonus having us absolutely.I hope you guys enjoy one of the
Boulder's fantastic restaurants. Thanks for joiningus today. Thank you, thank you,
(13:00):
guys. I'm doing that. Therewe go.
The Mandy Connell Podcast News
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