July 19, 2025 • 13 mins
We've had a flurry of education news this past week - giving the impression things are actually starting to look up.
Numeracy and literacy results are up significantly year on year, attendance is improving, and now - the Government wants to put an end to open plan classrooms.
But today, a damning Government briefing points out significant concerns around the credibility of the NCEA system itself.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
edb No.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We've had a flurry of education bits and pieces of news,
not just bits and pieces, some major news items this
past week, giving the impression that things are actually starting
to look up. Numeroucy and literalty. Oh god, I can't
even say it. Numeracy and literacy results are up significantly
year on year, Attendance is improving, and now the government
wants to put an end to open end classroom when
they're not putting it want to, they are doing it.
(00:32):
But today there was a damning government briefing pointing out
some concerns about the credibility of the NCEA system itself.
And Ministry of Education Erica Stanford, joins me. Now, Erica,
good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Good afternoon, how are you good? Things?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So results are up, but we still have a lot
have a long way to go, don't we.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Well, we do, and that's why we have a huge
system reform process underway, starting from right from EC through
primary and intermediate and into high school. We've been working
our way up. We started with curriculum, teaching, practice, assessment,
and professional learning and development for all of our teachers
and all of those resources we've flooded into primary schools
(01:14):
and now we're looking to what can we do in
the future because we will have children who are at curriculum.
We know we're already seeing results. How now does the
future of our national qualification look like?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So what was the main driving force behind that uptick and.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Results, the UPTIC and results you saw in the last
week or so. Was the correcquisite. That was the ENZA
Literacy and Uniracy correcquisite, Reading, writing and maths. I think
a big part of it, because I've spoken to principles,
was just a huge focus and effort. I mean, this
government came in and said we are redirecting all of
(01:51):
our focus into reading, writing and maths, and we've got
to get kids across the line, and we have a
singular focus. We did provide some funding to one hundred
and forty one schools of concern who had a bulk
of the students who needed to get across the line
to help their teachers and work with those students. That
certainly helped, But I think actually overall it was just
(02:11):
a singular focus from the government and from teachers on
the ground making a difference. They just pulled out all
the stops, and so we saw a huge uptick in results,
particularly in mathematics and our load de Soul schools.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So of course, I mean there's an ongoing sort of
there's always more things to look at in the next challenge.
And this briefing that you received re the NCEEA has
raised some deep concerns at its heart. How broken or
troubled is the NCEEA system right now?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Look, I think there are some improvements. I think parents
inherently know. And when I talk to parents, they tell
me they don't understand n CEA. They don't understand why
their children aren't fitting the exams that they're supposed to
be sitting. They don't really understand how it is that
students can get credits from things like filling in a
form or making a coffee there a CV. They don't
(03:06):
understand how it works. They don't understand that you don't
need to do a full program of learning in English
to get English, for example, you can to collect random
standards from all over the place and pull them all together.
So I think parents inherently know that something's not quite
right and there is a lack of consistency across the country.
We haven't got a singular curriculum that we're all teaching to.
(03:28):
What we're teaching to are the standards individual standards. They
were designed to assess, not to be taught to. So
we've got things around the wrong way. But in saying
that's there's no cause for alarm, I mean my children
are doing NCAA. I chose MCA because we could go
on IB at my school, and that we chose INCA.
It's still a good qualification. But the flexibility of the
(03:49):
system has has meant that we've had some unintended consequences
and we've got to reign it back and if we
want something that's internationally comparable sets their kids.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Up to put that bluntly, is that the flexibility was
something that you know, it looked great on paper, but
is it to be blunt? Is it something that's now
getting gained by schools and students to do less to
get more.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
That's what the reports are suggesting. But look, I don't
blame schools. The problem is we have had decades of
failure in our education system and standards have been flopping
and so you know NCA the flexibility of it, which
was supposed to enhance. It has meant that it's able
to be to be massaged down to meet the declining
needs of students. And so that's the problem that we've got.
(04:35):
We do need something that is now able to match
the students that are coming through with our structured approaches
to literacy and numery and numeracy. In our brand new curriculum,
they will be at curriculum and they need an international
robust curriculum.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Because there's so much talk I'm just talking as a
parent my south here, and there's so much talk about
the other ones that International Baccalaureate I think it's called,
and then Cambridge's exams, and how do we find out
where the truth lies in terms of having confidence with
what we're being taught because it's almost like we shift
with the headlines. You hear about a school that loved
(05:09):
Cambridge and they've dumped it, and eat NCAA is having troubles,
but then it's much maligned and it's actually not a
bad paper. But forget NCAA one. What are parents do
with all this information?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Well, hopefully parents will trust me in this government to
get this right. We are looking at all of the
evidence and you can see that schools are trying to
solve the problems for themselves with the n CEA. They're
trying to look at International Bacalaureate, they're trying to look
at Cambridge. Those systems aren't perfect either. They're still very
good and they are based on a curriculum and coherent
(05:43):
packages of learning, but they don't have some of the
other flexibility like the internal assessments and things like that.
Always so we are trying to take what are the
great things about NCAA, because there are some very good things.
How do we hold on to those but make sure
that there is consistency across the country. Doesn't matter if
your child is in in the Cargo or North London,
(06:05):
well which school they're at, they get the same learning
and we're assessing against the same curriculum. That's the driver
and that we can stand behind it and be proud
of it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Do we need to have compulsory subjects right through at
some stage in terms of I mean we emphasize numeracy
and literacy. Is the is there too much flexibility when
it comes to NCAA.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well, there certainly is calls from some sectors to have
some certainty, at at least year eleven that there are
some subjects that are compulsory, and so all of these
things have been put on the table with my principal
advisory group or professional advisory group as they're on. I've
got a bunch of principles around the country who are
looking at all of this. I most schools. Most schools
(06:49):
have English and maths compulsory at eleven, but not all.
So those are the kinds of things that the group
has been has been mulling over and working out what
should be required.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Of course, of course the shifting sounds of everything. One
of the big things is AI and the chill unges
of how is there going to be a shift because
it does create a problem when it comes to internal
versus external assessment getting people away from AI. Are you
looking at a rethink with regards to the influence of
(07:19):
AI on the way we assess kids.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It is certainly concerning the use of AI, and the
only really robust way of being able to assess a
child is through an external exam. Knowing that you'll have
special assessment conditions for those children who have additional learning
needs like reader writers, an extra time. But it is
a huge concern. But even without AI right now, you
(07:45):
are twice as likely to get an excellence grade on
an internally assessed assessment rather than you are external. So
of course schools are avoiding external assessments because they're the
ones are grading the papers. And so you get this.
And I had an interesting had a conversation with the
principle the other day who said, you know, if you've
got an excellent prince, little load us old school who's
(08:06):
getting their kids through? You know, the assumption is they're
just gaming the system. They're not actually an excellent teacher,
but they are an excellent teacher. We want to move
to a situation where that the moderation is such that
if a teacher is getting great results, it's because they
are a great teacher, not because they're able to massage
the results around. And so these are all of the
things that have been considered by the group.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
A big week for you with the open planned classrooms
and the infrastructure and the investment. How's the feedback been
on getting rid of the open planned classrooms?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Every week's a big week? Really good? Actually when you
it would be parents inherently don't like them, and usually
parents are right, I'd say all the time, parents are right.
They just they know if your child has got auditory
processing issues or is on the autism spectrum, or as
I often argue, just a boy, because I don't know
my son is terrible in an open planned classroom, just
(09:01):
with when they're a little their lack of ability to
concentrate sometimes in the noise and the distractions. Parents inherently
don't like them. And so it's gone down very well.
And the fact is that we haven't I haven't built one.
May have been one that a school particularly wanted in
the last eighty months. Anyway, it's trying to just formalize it,
(09:22):
draw a line in the sand, and so we're not
doing it again. We're creating flexible, flexible learning environments that
can be used in different ways according to the teacher,
not a classroom determining how you should teach, which is
the wrong way around.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
So is there still room for I mean, I know
there have been some principles. I said, oh, we quite
like the opening learning environment we had. I mean there's
always different voices, isn't it. How do you balance those
or is it just like right, that's a single cell
and that's the way we go.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, in the end, we're not building essentially what you
would think of as single cell. We're building flexible learning
spaces that are if you imagine a long corridor of
classrooms all separated with sliding glass doors that can be
closed off, so you have a single cell classroom. If
for some reason you want to open the doors because
you want to do a bind art class or some
sort of project with two classes, you can do that.
(10:09):
But it means in the future we're not putting walls
in and out and in and out. We have flexible learning spaces,
and that way schools can use them how that how
they how they would. But look, we're not going to
tell schools, you know, if you're working well in a space,
that you have to do anything you don't want to do.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Just a couple of final questions I did forget to
ask with the n c A, how quickly are you
looking to address questions about whether it needs some reform
or not.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, I've been working on this for quite a while
with the with the group. We're ready to start coming
out talking about it soon, So I can't give you
an exact timeframe. We haven't a date yet.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, that sounds pending.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
It's pending. It is pending, my friend. Yet we've been working,
we've been working really hard in a professional advisory group,
have been mulling lots of things over so not.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Long, okay, months or weeks or days, weeks, weeks. Just
one last question, of course, your Ministry of Education. But
then we've just had the school holidays. Do you actually
get to take some time off for your family or not?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
There were a little bit occasional half day here and there.
You know, as you can see, there's a huge amount
on the work program. It's just never ending, and there's
no time to waste. I mean a I might not
be the minister this time next year if there's an
election and the results don't go our way. But also
more importantly, sixty thousand kids start school every year and
(11:28):
they need to be starting with the best curriculums that's
internationally benchmarked and fully resourced, with teachers who are able
to teach structured literacy and structured maths. And we need
a twice yearly assessment tool. What's coming in next year.
We need an internationally comparable, robust national qualification that needs
to be implemented. We've got kids who are failing the correcquisite.
(11:49):
We've got to invest in I've got here six seven
and eight kids who need additional help in reading, writing
a mask to get them ready for NCAA. There is
so much work to be done, there is zero time
to rest. We've got to get it done.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Are you enjoying yourself in this role?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I love it. Would not be doing anything else. There
is not another job on the planet that you could
offer me right now than this. This is this is everything.
This is the best job I have ever had and
will ever have. I absolutely love it, and we are
making a difference. There's no other job where you make
a difference to this many kids' lives in a short
period of time.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I did promise the last question. I've got another follow
up on that. How steep has your learning curve been?
Because we haven't had much to chat on this show,
how steeps your learning curve been since you first took
over the role of education minister?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
You know that's streetened and Needham that they rolled the
jacket down like that, my friend, like that an opposition.
You know. When I got the job, I do remember
thinking to myself, I am never going to know as
much as Nicky kay. I mean, she was my mentor
and it was a little bit daunting taking it on.
But we just my adviser and I just sat down
(12:57):
over a number of weeks and read everything that was available.
We went to every conference, we learned about structured literacy.
I went into classrooms, spoke to teachers and principles and said,
how is it that we've had this decline? What has
caused this? And I you know, I had a similar
experience to the Northern Ireland Education Minister where a teacher
said to me, you know the word chat, how it's
(13:20):
pronounced at and that's how you would you would you
would teacher, you would think? I said yes, And they
said to me you have no idea how controversial that is.
And I was like, what are you talking about? And
they were like, have you heard of the reading wars
at that point, I of course hadn't. So there's been
a lot to learn.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I'm gurgling that as we speak. Hey, but Erica, thank
you so much for your time this afternoon. We'll talk
again sometime.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yes, bye bye. That is Erica Stanford, Minister of Education.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk said be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks
edb No.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We've had a flurry of education bits and pieces of news,
not just bits and pieces, some major news items this
past week, giving the impression that things are actually starting
to look up. Numeroucy and literalty. Oh god, I can't
even say it. Numeracy and literacy results are up significantly
year on year, Attendance is improving, and now the government
wants to put an end to open end classroom when
they're not putting it want to, they are doing it.
(00:32):
But today there was a damning government briefing pointing out
some concerns about the credibility of the NCEA system itself.
And Ministry of Education Erica Stanford, joins me. Now, Erica,
good afternoon.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Good afternoon, how are you good? Things?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
So results are up, but we still have a lot
have a long way to go, don't we.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Well, we do, and that's why we have a huge
system reform process underway, starting from right from EC through
primary and intermediate and into high school. We've been working
our way up. We started with curriculum, teaching, practice, assessment,
and professional learning and development for all of our teachers
and all of those resources we've flooded into primary schools
(01:14):
and now we're looking to what can we do in
the future because we will have children who are at curriculum.
We know we're already seeing results. How now does the
future of our national qualification look like?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So what was the main driving force behind that uptick and.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Results, the UPTIC and results you saw in the last
week or so. Was the correcquisite. That was the ENZA
Literacy and Uniracy correcquisite, Reading, writing and maths. I think
a big part of it, because I've spoken to principles,
was just a huge focus and effort. I mean, this
government came in and said we are redirecting all of
(01:51):
our focus into reading, writing and maths, and we've got
to get kids across the line, and we have a
singular focus. We did provide some funding to one hundred
and forty one schools of concern who had a bulk
of the students who needed to get across the line
to help their teachers and work with those students. That
certainly helped, But I think actually overall it was just
(02:11):
a singular focus from the government and from teachers on
the ground making a difference. They just pulled out all
the stops, and so we saw a huge uptick in results,
particularly in mathematics and our load de Soul schools.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
So of course, I mean there's an ongoing sort of
there's always more things to look at in the next challenge.
And this briefing that you received re the NCEEA has
raised some deep concerns at its heart. How broken or
troubled is the NCEEA system right now?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Look, I think there are some improvements. I think parents
inherently know. And when I talk to parents, they tell
me they don't understand n CEA. They don't understand why
their children aren't fitting the exams that they're supposed to
be sitting. They don't really understand how it is that
students can get credits from things like filling in a
form or making a coffee there a CV. They don't
(03:06):
understand how it works. They don't understand that you don't
need to do a full program of learning in English
to get English, for example, you can to collect random
standards from all over the place and pull them all together.
So I think parents inherently know that something's not quite
right and there is a lack of consistency across the country.
We haven't got a singular curriculum that we're all teaching to.
(03:28):
What we're teaching to are the standards individual standards. They
were designed to assess, not to be taught to. So
we've got things around the wrong way. But in saying
that's there's no cause for alarm, I mean my children
are doing NCAA. I chose MCA because we could go
on IB at my school, and that we chose INCA.
It's still a good qualification. But the flexibility of the
(03:49):
system has has meant that we've had some unintended consequences
and we've got to reign it back and if we
want something that's internationally comparable sets their kids.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Up to put that bluntly, is that the flexibility was
something that you know, it looked great on paper, but
is it to be blunt? Is it something that's now
getting gained by schools and students to do less to
get more.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
That's what the reports are suggesting. But look, I don't
blame schools. The problem is we have had decades of
failure in our education system and standards have been flopping
and so you know NCA the flexibility of it, which
was supposed to enhance. It has meant that it's able
to be to be massaged down to meet the declining
needs of students. And so that's the problem that we've got.
(04:35):
We do need something that is now able to match
the students that are coming through with our structured approaches
to literacy and numery and numeracy. In our brand new curriculum,
they will be at curriculum and they need an international
robust curriculum.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Because there's so much talk I'm just talking as a
parent my south here, and there's so much talk about
the other ones that International Baccalaureate I think it's called,
and then Cambridge's exams, and how do we find out
where the truth lies in terms of having confidence with
what we're being taught because it's almost like we shift
with the headlines. You hear about a school that loved
(05:09):
Cambridge and they've dumped it, and eat NCAA is having troubles,
but then it's much maligned and it's actually not a
bad paper. But forget NCAA one. What are parents do
with all this information?
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Well, hopefully parents will trust me in this government to
get this right. We are looking at all of the
evidence and you can see that schools are trying to
solve the problems for themselves with the n CEA. They're
trying to look at International Bacalaureate, they're trying to look
at Cambridge. Those systems aren't perfect either. They're still very
good and they are based on a curriculum and coherent
(05:43):
packages of learning, but they don't have some of the
other flexibility like the internal assessments and things like that.
Always so we are trying to take what are the
great things about NCAA, because there are some very good things.
How do we hold on to those but make sure
that there is consistency across the country. Doesn't matter if
your child is in in the Cargo or North London,
(06:05):
well which school they're at, they get the same learning
and we're assessing against the same curriculum. That's the driver
and that we can stand behind it and be proud
of it.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Do we need to have compulsory subjects right through at
some stage in terms of I mean we emphasize numeracy
and literacy. Is the is there too much flexibility when
it comes to NCAA.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Well, there certainly is calls from some sectors to have
some certainty, at at least year eleven that there are
some subjects that are compulsory, and so all of these
things have been put on the table with my principal
advisory group or professional advisory group as they're on. I've
got a bunch of principles around the country who are
looking at all of this. I most schools. Most schools
(06:49):
have English and maths compulsory at eleven, but not all.
So those are the kinds of things that the group
has been has been mulling over and working out what
should be required.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Of course, of course the shifting sounds of everything. One
of the big things is AI and the chill unges
of how is there going to be a shift because
it does create a problem when it comes to internal
versus external assessment getting people away from AI. Are you
looking at a rethink with regards to the influence of
(07:19):
AI on the way we assess kids.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
It is certainly concerning the use of AI, and the
only really robust way of being able to assess a
child is through an external exam. Knowing that you'll have
special assessment conditions for those children who have additional learning
needs like reader writers, an extra time. But it is
a huge concern. But even without AI right now, you
(07:45):
are twice as likely to get an excellence grade on
an internally assessed assessment rather than you are external. So
of course schools are avoiding external assessments because they're the
ones are grading the papers. And so you get this.
And I had an interesting had a conversation with the
principle the other day who said, you know, if you've
got an excellent prince, little load us old school who's
(08:06):
getting their kids through? You know, the assumption is they're
just gaming the system. They're not actually an excellent teacher,
but they are an excellent teacher. We want to move
to a situation where that the moderation is such that
if a teacher is getting great results, it's because they
are a great teacher, not because they're able to massage
the results around. And so these are all of the
things that have been considered by the group.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
A big week for you with the open planned classrooms
and the infrastructure and the investment. How's the feedback been
on getting rid of the open planned classrooms?
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Every week's a big week? Really good? Actually when you
it would be parents inherently don't like them, and usually
parents are right, I'd say all the time, parents are right.
They just they know if your child has got auditory
processing issues or is on the autism spectrum, or as
I often argue, just a boy, because I don't know
my son is terrible in an open planned classroom, just
(09:01):
with when they're a little their lack of ability to
concentrate sometimes in the noise and the distractions. Parents inherently
don't like them. And so it's gone down very well.
And the fact is that we haven't I haven't built one.
May have been one that a school particularly wanted in
the last eighty months. Anyway, it's trying to just formalize it,
(09:22):
draw a line in the sand, and so we're not
doing it again. We're creating flexible, flexible learning environments that
can be used in different ways according to the teacher,
not a classroom determining how you should teach, which is
the wrong way around.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
So is there still room for I mean, I know
there have been some principles. I said, oh, we quite
like the opening learning environment we had. I mean there's
always different voices, isn't it. How do you balance those
or is it just like right, that's a single cell
and that's the way we go.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Well, in the end, we're not building essentially what you
would think of as single cell. We're building flexible learning
spaces that are if you imagine a long corridor of
classrooms all separated with sliding glass doors that can be
closed off, so you have a single cell classroom. If
for some reason you want to open the doors because
you want to do a bind art class or some
sort of project with two classes, you can do that.
(10:09):
But it means in the future we're not putting walls
in and out and in and out. We have flexible learning spaces,
and that way schools can use them how that how
they how they would. But look, we're not going to
tell schools, you know, if you're working well in a space,
that you have to do anything you don't want to do.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Just a couple of final questions I did forget to
ask with the n c A, how quickly are you
looking to address questions about whether it needs some reform
or not.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Well, I've been working on this for quite a while
with the with the group. We're ready to start coming
out talking about it soon, So I can't give you
an exact timeframe. We haven't a date yet.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
Well, that sounds pending.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
It's pending. It is pending, my friend. Yet we've been working,
we've been working really hard in a professional advisory group,
have been mulling lots of things over so not.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Long, okay, months or weeks or days, weeks, weeks. Just
one last question, of course, your Ministry of Education. But
then we've just had the school holidays. Do you actually
get to take some time off for your family or not?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
There were a little bit occasional half day here and there.
You know, as you can see, there's a huge amount
on the work program. It's just never ending, and there's
no time to waste. I mean a I might not
be the minister this time next year if there's an
election and the results don't go our way. But also
more importantly, sixty thousand kids start school every year and
(11:28):
they need to be starting with the best curriculums that's
internationally benchmarked and fully resourced, with teachers who are able
to teach structured literacy and structured maths. And we need
a twice yearly assessment tool. What's coming in next year.
We need an internationally comparable, robust national qualification that needs
to be implemented. We've got kids who are failing the correcquisite.
(11:49):
We've got to invest in I've got here six seven
and eight kids who need additional help in reading, writing
a mask to get them ready for NCAA. There is
so much work to be done, there is zero time
to rest. We've got to get it done.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Are you enjoying yourself in this role?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I love it. Would not be doing anything else. There
is not another job on the planet that you could
offer me right now than this. This is this is everything.
This is the best job I have ever had and
will ever have. I absolutely love it, and we are
making a difference. There's no other job where you make
a difference to this many kids' lives in a short
period of time.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I did promise the last question. I've got another follow
up on that. How steep has your learning curve been?
Because we haven't had much to chat on this show,
how steeps your learning curve been since you first took
over the role of education minister?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
You know that's streetened and Needham that they rolled the
jacket down like that, my friend, like that an opposition.
You know. When I got the job, I do remember
thinking to myself, I am never going to know as
much as Nicky kay. I mean, she was my mentor
and it was a little bit daunting taking it on.
But we just my adviser and I just sat down
(12:57):
over a number of weeks and read everything that was available.
We went to every conference, we learned about structured literacy.
I went into classrooms, spoke to teachers and principles and said,
how is it that we've had this decline? What has
caused this? And I you know, I had a similar
experience to the Northern Ireland Education Minister where a teacher
said to me, you know the word chat, how it's
(13:20):
pronounced at and that's how you would you would you
would teacher, you would think? I said yes, And they
said to me you have no idea how controversial that is.
And I was like, what are you talking about? And
they were like, have you heard of the reading wars
at that point, I of course hadn't. So there's been
a lot to learn.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I'm gurgling that as we speak. Hey, but Erica, thank
you so much for your time this afternoon. We'll talk
again sometime.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yes, bye bye. That is Erica Stanford, Minister of Education.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News
Talk said be weekends from three pm, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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