November 15, 2022 • 59 mins
1947 was a historic year. On top of the atomic age and the Cold War knocking on the door, a man from Boise, Kenneth Arnold, saw nine strange objects in the sky and it changed the world forever. The press ate up Arnold's story, and the few weeks that followed saw a frenzy of "flying saucer" sightings including some of the most notorious UFO cases of the 20th century. Were they all just part of the mass hysteria that followed Arnold's account?
Guest Keri Pina brings her passion for the UFO phenomena to the show!
Have you seen a UFO, UAP, or USO? We'd love to have you on a future episode. Write us at astudyofstrange@gmail.com
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Sources and Links:
- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B096Y8FXGV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o04?ie=UTF8&psc=1
- https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09NSZZGTX/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0D8eAm8h2Y
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWqwB52wnuI
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54076142/kenneth-arnold-ufo-sighting-june-25/
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54075774/kenneth-arnold-ufo-sighting-follow-up/
- https://www.newspapers.com/clip/17319675/kenneth-arnold-flying-saucers-are/
- https://www.history.com/news/historys-most-infamous-ufo-sightings
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Perhaps the most prominent modern socialand cultural phenomena
is the unidentified flying objector unidentified aerial phenomena.
Today, belief in aliens is at an all timehigh,
and there are numerous reports of UFOsfrom countless credible witnesses.
But where did the modern belief in UFOscome from?
(00:21):
Shows like Ancient Aliensand Others lead us to believe
that humans have always seenstrange things in the sky.
And that is true today, though, pop
culture mixes with science and hoaxesin this identifications.
All of these things combinelike a stew of ideas to influence
our beliefsabout intelligent life out in the cosmos.
(00:43):
But we can actually trace the beginningsof the modern UFO to one event.
On June 24th, 1947,
tonight,we look at a man named Kenneth Arnold
who accidently inspiredthe birth of the term flying saucer.
In the few weeks that followed, sawthe entire country and parts of the world
(01:03):
have a flurry of flying saucer sightings
and nothing has been the same since.
This is a study of
strange.
(01:32):
Well, welcome to the show.
I'm Michael May.
And today my guest is Carrie Kina. Carrie.
You're married to Tim, my former partnerin crime, an autobiography.
And I wanted to have you on this episodebecause I was at your house,
like, a month or two ago.
And you did mention some UFO thing.
And I was like, Oh, well,I do want to do a UFO story.
(01:54):
So I just I had you in mindwhen I finally decided on one.
What do you believe in terms of UFOs?
Do you believe that aliens have visitedEarth?
That's a huge question.
Yes, it is. I guess my answer is maybe.
I feel like there's a lot of evidence, butI'm at my heart a very skeptical person.
(02:15):
I'm definitely in that.
I want to believe cluband I want to believe it's happened.
But it's a lot of time when I go caseby case and I look at stories, it's it's
easy for the skeptic to come out, butit is my favorite in the world of strange.
It is my favorite topic to explore.
Oh, nice.
Well, I'm excited to have you on for thisthen. I.
(02:36):
Yeah, I'm just my own personalbelief is I'm very similar where I'm like,
maybe like if I believe in any weirdthing out there, it's that there.
I believe there's definitely intelligentlife somewhere in the universe.
I just don't know of Dave for sure.
Visited and flown by, and they're like,Hey, what's up, guys?
You know, wave it down to us.
But there is there's a lot of evidenceto point to strange things.
(02:58):
There's a lot of unidentifiedflying objects.
And yeah,anything else you have to explore?
Like what?
When someone says a UFO.
Well, what are you talking about?
Is it just a craftyou don't you can identify?
Or is it do you really think that, hey,this came from 100 million
light years away and they're just sayingthat they just go in and out or
(03:19):
and yeah, I'm into basically
any new theory I hear about UFOs.
I'm down that rabbit hole.
I've had enough of that.
It's just it's my favorite topic.
So I'm so stoked to talk about thiswith you. Well, thanks.
Now, have you ever heard of the KennethArnold story before I brought it up?
I feel like I have heard a version of it,
(03:42):
but I knew it might have been on like aread it or somewhere deep.
So I'm really curiousto hear your research version of what.
Okay, well, now the pressure's on.
Pressure's on. Yeah, the pressure is on.
Yeah.
The Kenneth Arnold storyit's in takes place in 1947,
and I was lookingat a bunch of different topics
(04:05):
to potentially dowith an unidentified flying object
or unidentified aerial phenomena,as a lot of people are calling it now.
And I looked at like Roswell and I lookedat some less famous, strange stories
and there's they get so bogged down likethere's so many different versions of it.
There's so many people
that are hardcore conspiracy theoriststhat they have that argument of, Oh,
(04:26):
that's just a cover up,there's a conspiracy.
And it's like, Well,you're not debating it, right?
And the thing that stood out to meabout Kenneth
Arnold story is historically, it'svery significant because it
it started the term flying saucerand started this craze
almost like a mass hysteriathat happened immediately after it that
I think we still feel the the effects ofin sort of like society and pop culture
(04:50):
and how we think about UFOsor alien intelligence.
It's kind of reverberated down the lineand is connected to everything.
But also because he was immediatelyinterviewed by lots of people
the day after the two daysafter this sighting.
We're notwe don't get as bogged down in his
in his reportsas you do with other things, like Roswell.
(05:13):
It was days or weeks before the guy, like,brought some stuff in
and there's time there.
And then no one talked about it againfor 30 years.
And then that KennethArnold story is suffice to say,
is far simpler but almost more importantthan some of these other like UFO stories.
And I don't think anybody'sever had a good theory
(05:34):
to say what he actually saw in termsof like debunking
it might beingsome sort of alien technology.
So it leaves the door open foralmost like whatever you want to believe.
So I just I find it very fascinatingwith that and one in a long tangent there.
Want one away from my notes? I'm sorry.
No, I think it's a good
story too,because it is it's a very simple story.
(05:57):
It's really difficult to debunk.
I think I have read a couple of theoriesof what
he potentially could have seen, but
I mean, they just feel like guesses.
They just feel throwaway.
And it's like, okay, sure,we can do that with anything.
But oh, that's yeah.
That's a good point.And we'll get into that a little bit.
So let me give a little contextfor the time
(06:20):
this happens, because I think that'sreally important to them.
It's 1947and it is like a perfect storm of paranoia
and also just it's the atomic ageas the Cold War is starting.
Atomic technology is is big on everybody'smind.
Weapons are being developedby the United States government,
(06:41):
plus our potential enemies overseas.
And the Truman Doctrinewas announced in 1947,
which essentially ramped usup to the Cold War.
The Air Force was formed in 1947 as well.
Wow. Okay. Yeah.
And people around the countrywere very aware of like massive amounts
of weapons development, development of jetplanes, of rocket technology.
(07:04):
People are aware of itlike they're not privy to the details,
like all of that's classified,but they know that it's going on.
The UFO phenomena wasn't what it is today.
It was not a hugely popular topic today.
I read 25% of Americansbelieve that we've been visited by aliens.
But back in 1947,there's no number on this.
(07:25):
But like it was probably a solid
guess is maybe like 3% like right?
Very few peoplejust because it wasn't thought about it
wasn't what everybody did.
And even after War of the Worlds,that was broadcast in 1938, like famous
radio program and from the book and peoplethought Martians were attacking it.
That was popular, but it still didn'tlike stick on people's imaginations
(07:49):
from a cultural waythat UFO was kind of due today.
Yeah.
Let's let's get into the storyso everybody can actually hear it.
This is the Kenneth Arnold story of seeing
a flying saucer or as he wouldsay, it's not a flying saucer.
So it was June 24th, 1947,
and 32 year old Kenneth Arnold,he was a businessman.
(08:10):
He sold like firefighting equipmentout of Boise, Idaho,
and he would travel for businessin his own private plane.
It was a call air aid, too,which is a two seat single engine.
This was important for his businessbecause now he could he could approach
clientele all around the Pacific Northwestof the States instead of just Boise.
And he had around 9000 flying hours,which means he's
(08:35):
very experienced as a pilotand I would imagine very experienced
seeing things held outside of the cockpit.
And on this day, he was
flying to Yakima,Washington, from Charles Washington,
and he was passing through the CascadeMountains, which includes like Mount
Rainier and Mount Adams.
(08:56):
And he deviated from his.
Sorry, everybody.
I actually I have COVID right now.I'll announce it to everybody.
So my voice is just a little weird.
So I'm trying my best.
And Carrie is not in the room with me.
We are separate.
So Arnold deviated from his flight pathto search
for a downed Marine Corps plane.
(09:19):
And this happenedabout six months earlier.
It was part of a six planeconvoy from San Diego to Seattle,
and the plane was a Curtis r5c1,also known as a C 46.
And this simple shortversion of the story is
weather got bad for planesdiverted to Portland, Oregon.
Two kept going, but one never made it.
(09:41):
And the pilot had actually checkedin via radio
on the way to Seattle and was requestingto fly above the weather.
But the plane was unpressurized,so I'm not sure actually
how much above the weatherhe could have gone in and it disappeared
and had three crew and 29 Marinesthat were lost in this crash.
Yeah.
And Arnold,I actually heard in a radio interview,
(10:03):
I've listened to a number of them.
I've been able to find the onehe gave later on.
He actually mentioned that he had lookedfor this plane before,
like it was a well known thing.
There was a $5,000 reward,which is, you know, that's
a lot of money todayand especially back then.
And so because he was going by the areawhere it was thought that it crashed,
he was like, oh, I'll just takea little bit of time and do a sweep.
And if I get lucky, I'll find the plane,and if not, I'll just carry on.
(10:26):
So he had actually done this before.
This wasn't out of the ordinaryfor him to look for this plane,
and it was a clear, beautiful day.
So it was kind of like perfect conditionsto actually search for this plane.
He made a turn at 9200 feet and a flash
in his eyes kind of got his attention.
And it came from about 15 miles away.
(10:48):
He thinks this is just before 3 p.m.,by the way.
And then sort of
he kept getting these flashes of lightin his eye and he's looking around.
He did notice another plane
in a different direction,kind of further off, I think a DC five.
And then he noticedwhere the flashes came from
and he saw nine straight objects
(11:09):
in flying in some sort of formationwhich they would flip or bob up and down
and they would reflectwhen they made this movement,
they would
reflect the sunlight back into his eyesand helped him actually see these things.
And now I'm going to read a quote from
one of the plethora of articlesthat have him talking about it.
So I'll just kind of
read from his own words what he whathe went through and what he saw.
(11:34):
I noticed
to the left of me chains, whichlooked like a tail of a Chinese kite,
which were weaving and goingat a terrific speed across the base of Mt.
Rainier.
At first I thought they were geese,but they were going too fast.
I immediately changed my mind and decided
they were new jetplanes flying information.
I thought I would clock thembecause it was such a clear day
(11:54):
due to the fact that I had MountSt Helens in Mount Adams
to clock them by, I thought I'dsee how fast they were going.
They seemed to flip and flash in the sunlike a mirror.
In fact,
I happened to be at an anglefrom the sun that it seemed to hit the top
of these peculiar looking thingsin such a way that it almost blinded you
when you looked at itthrough your plexiglass windshield.
It was about a minute to three
(12:15):
when I started to clock themon my second hand clock,
and as I looked at them,I kept looking for their tails,
but they didn't have any tailsthat something was wrong with my eyes.
So I'd turn the plane around
and open the window and sure enough,I couldn't find any tails on them.
They looked something like a pie plate
that was cut in halfwith a convex triangle in the rear.
(12:35):
I thought maybe they're jetplanes with tails
painted green or brown, and you couldn'tsee them and didn't think too much of it.
So that's his description of what he saw.
The whole experience lastedonly two and a half minutes.
Like this is a quick a quick thing.
And when I the common story is that heyou know, he's using the mountains, Mt.
(12:58):
Rainier, Mount Adams.
And so he has these visual references
to see, okay,they're passing this mountain now.
They're in front of that mountain.
So he can use the distancebetween the two mountains
to kind of calculatehow fast they're going.
And when I
started reading about the story,I kept thinking, he's
doing the calculations in the plane.Right?
He's doing a break there.
He did it.
And that makes way more sense to me.
(13:19):
He actually it wasn'ttill he got to his final destination
that they that he actually likedid the math.
He just sort of got got the reading on it.
And he estimated that they were going1200 miles an hour.
He know later onsome other people came out and said, oh,
he was incorrect about the distancebetween the two mountains.
So they were actuallygoing 1700 miles an hour.
(13:42):
So regardless, 1200 or 1700. Why.
No planes went that fast at that time,no jet planes.
They were testing the speed of sound.
I think it's 760or thereabouts miles per hour.
We hadn't broken the speed of sound yet,so planes didn't even go that fast.
And I also read in some interview lateron, Arnold gave,
(14:05):
he said, even if you take the lowend of the calculation that he had
and he said 800 miles an hourat the low end, which is still faster
than anything elsethat was flying at the time.
I kept reading that he calculatedor assumed the wingspan
of these flying things to be 50 feet, but
(14:25):
when he landed, he kept saying 100.
So I don't know where I kept where people.
Maybe he gave a range in some interviews,
but it's somewherebetween 50 to 100 feet in Wingspan.
And I said it in the storyand I'll say it a million times tonight.
He never said they were flying saucers.
Right? Right.
(14:46):
That's kind of the famous part of this.
He never once describes them as saucers.
He always talks about pie plates or
cut in half with a point,or he talks about saucers.
Skipping on water is a storythat he would tell a lot of reporters
because he meant it in the waythat they flew.
Not in their shapeand shape the way that they move.
Exactly.
(15:07):
So he landed in Yakima, Washington, right
after all this, and he told his storyto the aircraft manager.
And then he headed off to his nextdestination because he was just refueling,
which was Pendleton, Oregon,which where he was going to stay.
He was there for like an air showor something like that.
And when he landed in Oregon, wordhad already gotten out
from when he first landed in Yakimaand told his story.
(15:28):
So people were there asking him questions
about what he saw, so muchso that there was enough interest
that he had to go by the EastOregonian newspaper the next day.
So a lot of times the common story is likehe lands in Oregon
and there's press all aroundand they're asking him questions.
That's not the case.
He didn't talk about pressto land to the press until the next day,
(15:49):
but people were asking himquestions that night when he landed.
So the next day he meets in the EastOregonian offices.
And at this point he had donehis calculations for the speed and build
biggish.
And the editor,Nolan Skiff, were in the office,
and they thought it was,you know, an interesting mystery.
But they were like,this is intriguing for readers.
Like, we got to do an article on this.
(16:10):
So they The East Oregonian puts outthat afternoon,
there was a headline in the newspaperthat said Impossible maybe.
But see, in his believe,it says Flier, which is such a 1940s.
Headline, I love. Yeah.
And so if that newspaper
were the only newspaperto publish the story,
we might never really knowabout Kenneth Arnold.
(16:31):
But within a day he was being approachedby every news organization in the country.
Pretty mucheverybody wanted to talk to the guy.
So now, now here's the fun part.
Did you get thosethe scenes that I sent you earlier?
I did, yeah. Yeah.
Are you in them?
But I didn't.
I didn't.
Deep dove, because I'm like,maybe it's more fun to be surprised.
That's right.
(16:51):
I normally don't even send up till rightbefore, so.
No, you don't have to do a deep dove.
But if you can pull up, if you're ableto the first scene, I think it's Arnold.
One is what I guess.
In terms of the scene I wrote,
all of his quotes are real quotesfrom interviews he gave,
but Ikind of wrote it like a press conference.
(17:13):
There was no press conference.
He was talking to press via the telephoneand letters and telegrams. But
I just thought just for for for dramaticpurposes, it's a press conference.
So why don't you read Arnold and I'll readdescriptions in the new newspaperman.
Okay.
Are you going to give meare you going to give me
if I, like, stumble,am I going to get multiple takes or.
No, it's all one take.
(17:33):
But stumbles are natural.
I mean, didyou ever listen to Tim's episode?
I you're going to think that I'mthe worst wife.
I can tell you the only one I haven't
felt like.
Yeah.
I think in Tim's episode, I think I wasthe one that couldn't do an accent.
And he actually did pretty good
because he was doing like a Boston accentand kind of nailed nailed.
(17:54):
It because of me. I don't know.
Maybe he was trying to do the Kennedys,I think.
But yeah, I kept messing up.
So no stumbling. Stumbling is fine.
There's no. Pressure.This is this is. All supposed to be fun.
So, yes, again, this is a dramatization
of a nonexistent press conferencewith Kenneth Arnold's
in the East Oregonian newspaper offices.
(18:15):
During the day.
Kenneth Arnold is taking KennethArnold is talking see irony messed up
do a lot to
a large group of old timey reportersshouting to get their questions answered.
Photographers, flashbulbs, clackeach time Arnold begins to speak.
Mr. Arnold. Mr. Arnold,you said you saw a flash.
What exactly did you see? It startled me.
I assumed it was some militarylieutenant out with a shiny P-51,
(18:39):
and they caught the reflection of the sun.
But what did they look like?
Well, it looked like a chain of sorts,nine of them in total.
And they were sort of oval,like a pie plate cut in half.
But with a convex point at the back,the one up front.
Could it have been the Russians?
Should we be worried?
I can't say ifif it's not from our government.
(19:01):
I hope the military investigates.
They were in a formation,but not of any type of formation.
Our military flies.
Mr. Arnold, over here.
What were they flying like?
Couldn't these have been just new fangledjet planes?
Well, they flipped last as they flewerratically, like boats on rough water.
They would skip and sailand give off flashes
(19:24):
like you take a softwareand ship it across the water.
That's how they flew.
I've done the math
and when I clocked them, they were goingroughly 1200 miles per hour.
That's faster than any jet plane.
I'm so sorry.
1090 news.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
That's an old fashioned jet plane. That.
(19:46):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
I could spend my life talking.
I should just start talking like that.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Just bring it back. Yeah.
So the point of this scene is to showthat the media,
they went crazy,like they ate up this story.
The AP newswire was talking to himand sending out reports
(20:07):
and in articles, variousother agencies and distribution services
in the news game where we're calling himand sending letters and talking to him
and it is the 1947 equivalentof going viral.
Yeah.
And no one knows exactlywho coined the term flying saucer,
but it came out in the papersafter these interviews.
(20:29):
And again,
he described it as a pie plate or saucersipping a water, stuff like that.
And so he he called the flying saucer term
just a really bad misquote.
Yeah, but it caught on, you know,that was the de facto term
for UFOs for decades.
So it's such a quick visual.
(20:49):
If someone does flying saucer,it's it's there in your head
right away where I feel likeI've seen the the drawings
or the images of what he's claimedhe saw and it's yeah.
It's not a saucer, it'smore like almost like a bat wing or.
Yeah. Boomerang or something. Yeah.
It's like a click. It's a quick visual.
(21:10):
I can see why somebody might throw itin and a headline and it caught on.
Absolutely.
And I hadn't thought of it that way,but it is a very just a simple describe
Dave saying it is very catchyand it makes you visualize it and see it
where UFO, which was a termthat was not used yet at the time
or even UAP, there's a lot of peopleare using that's more broad.
(21:31):
It's broad on purpose.
But like it doesn't make meI think of a million different things.
I mean. Think about anything. Yeah.
Hey, everyone, I
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(22:37):
or see our shownotes for a link. Thank you.
So the
influence of these reports coming out,they it's huge.
I mean the influenceit affects pop culture.
You see, like all the B-moviesof the 1950s and sixties,
all the alien moviesare all in flying saucers
(22:58):
through today, even, but even in likepulp magazines and comic books.
Suddenly that is thethat's the image that everybody likes.
It's become such a like kitsch,Americana, classic story of its own.
And that's where it started.
Yes. Any old timey alien story,you think even if you're thinking
(23:18):
of like Roswell or alien autopsy, you have
that this is where this isthe true birth of it.
This is where it came from.
That's right.
And again, just theI think the descriptive nature of it and
it being so visual by the end of the week,this kind of had started a craze.
Right.
All these other people are now thinkingthat aliens are on flying
(23:39):
through our atmosphereand they think they see things.
And Arnold story kind of broke the ice.
Like suddenly hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of stories
come out of peopleseeing these unidentified flying objects.
But for the most part,they're describing them as saucers
and like I saw saucers and I'll givesome examples on the 27th of June.
(24:03):
So this is three days after his sighting,the Portland Oregonian published a report
that a woman in Bremerton, Washington,sold the same mysterious saucers.
But she's thinking of fully round saucers.
A Chicago man, I think, in the same day.
So also nine saucers.
A railroad engineer in Illinoiscalled in with
(24:23):
seeing nine flying pans, as he called it.
And then two weeks later,a man named Rhodes in Arizona took
a picture of an object that Arnold latersaid looked kind of like what he saw.
That's a deeper storythat I'm not going to go into.
But RHODES. He's one of.
These, like,
conspiratorial kind of storiesbecause the FBI apparently showed up
and took the photosand no one. Knew the negatives.
(24:45):
Right? Yeah.
And those are just examples.
Those are very limited examples.
But this is happening all the time
and I usually think I have some dateswritten down and look at my notes.
Yeah.
So the total number of reports are debatedbecause it's hard to actually track
each one in.
Some newspapers are picking upthe same story or reporting on the same
like a storythey saw in another newspaper.
(25:07):
So it's actually it's really hardto figure it out exactly, though.
But between June 25th and July 3rd,there's roughly between
like 12 to 24 reports on most most days
by Independence Day that year, July 4th,
the sightings rose really sharply.
There were 160reports on July 4th and fifth.
(25:28):
And then between July 6th and seventh,there were 300 reports.
So it's just going, going,going up, going up.
Also, at this time,
a little event called
Roswell happened just two weeks after it.
And again,I'm not going to go into Roswell today.
(25:48):
There's there's not enough timein the world for you
tonightto go into Roswell witness as well.
But that's the big storythat everybody knows and thinks about
when they think of UFOs back then.
But that's, you know, the supposedcrash landing. Yeah.
Do you have. Questions for the questions?
So here is my takeaway was
we we got our boy here who is
(26:13):
he? He has the sighting.
And he's credible.
He's credible to everyone as an eyewitnessbecause, yes, he's a pilot.
He knows this guy really well.
It was a really clear day.
He's a trustworthy person.
I think part of what makes his story
so convincing is because
(26:33):
he seems very considered and thoughtfulabout how he,
even in the moment,is trying to debunk this.
The whole thing is, what, 2 minutes?
The whole thing is like 2 minutes
that he's he's measuring in his headthe distance between two mountains.
He's familiar with the area.
I had known that there was
he was there looking for a planethat had gone down.
(26:54):
And I didn't know the story of the planethat had gone down.
So part of me was like,well, is that part of it?
Yeah, the first plane down.
So that he knew this area.
But, you know, he's therelooking for a plane crashes.
They're looking forwhere a large group of people died.
So his his symptoms are heightened.
He's he's on the lookout for something.
(27:17):
And my thought was thatbecause he was so credible,
that's kind of why the story got took offand had legs.
But am I wrong in my understanding that
the guy who had the Roswell crash stuff
on his property didn'the hear the story and be like, Well,
(27:38):
wait a minute, maybe that'swhat all that garbage in my yard is from.
Yeah.
So that that is, that'sone of my favorite parts
about the Roswell storyand Ufologists are going to hate me
because I haven't done enough researchto get really specific on it.
But I think the the story
(27:59):
that people that don't believe it's a UFOstick to is
he found like debrison his ranch on the property
and it was just plastic and some piecesof wood and stuff like that.
And he kind of brushedit underneath some bushes or something
and he didn't have not TV, of course,but he didn't have a radio.
He wasn't getting newspaperbecause he's out out in the boonies
(28:22):
and he didn't knowall these stories coming out.
And then when he went to town one day,
he started seeing themor reading about him or hearing about it
and was like, Oh,I found this stuff out here. Maybe.
Maybe that has something to do with it.
Yeah. Yeah, but it's I.
I personally don't believeRoswell was a UFO crash.
I, I'm.
(28:42):
I'm a sucker. For what?
The gut for the what the government says.
So I'm part of the problemfor the people that do believe it.
But like it was, again, Cold War 1947.
This is like the ramp upand the declassified information
that came out in the nineties aboutRoswell was that it was a balloon
that had sensors on it,
trying to see if we could senseif Russia was testing nukes.
(29:06):
So of course, they're not going to wantpeople to know, but that's what it is.
So I believe that again, UFO people,please tell me I'm wrong, right?
In a study of strange edema dotcom let me know
and maybe we'll do a Roswell episodeone day.
But just from the surfacethat makes sense.
Also the fact that it happened
two weeks after Kennethunder like you were saying,
like the guy read about this and was like,wait a second.
(29:26):
Nope, I'm making sense with that.
No, I didn't mean it. Yeah.
And I mean, I'm I consider myselflike a UFO person a little bit.
Sure. I don't want anyone to come for me.
I met
with Roswell.
It's like my big thingis what you said is like,
I'm so ready to be wrong about this.
That all the the debris that seemed to becollected was like, I feel like I've read
(29:50):
like tinfoil and rubble and I'm just like,that's not a spacecraft.
That's like a fifth graders STEM project.
Like, it's just or, you know, you know,like, I'm just not convinced that
that was I just maybeif you had found some metal that was like,
yeah, or something like,I need more to believe it again.
(30:11):
I'd love to believe it.I'd love for that to be.
But it's so much.
Yeah, I just, I feel like there's betterstories out there.
That are stories out there.
And like, if you are a believer in aliensvisiting the planet, I think there's
there's just better stories than that.
I really
don't think that that is a massive, weirdcover up like a lot of people believe.
That's just me.
That's just me. Happy to be Kenneth Story.
(30:34):
I feel like, listen,there's in terms when you're talking about
when this took place, you'renot going to have cell phone footage.
The odds of you even having a photograph,
all a reliable person giving an account.
And I amI wrong that I feel like other people
(30:55):
claimed they saw the same thingat the same time thing, right?
Yeah.
There's a
there's two that I know of and I apologizebecause I don't have their exact
information in front of me.
But there was a prospector
working on the mountainsthat said he saw the same thing.
There was also somebody in the firewatch on the mountains.
That sort of thing.
I think there was also an actuallythey think there's a third
(31:16):
I think there was a womannearby that also said she saw
things that could have been the same.
But those all came out later.
Like I you know, somesometimes you're like,
is someone just saying itbecause they want to say it?
They want to be part of the story.
Yeah.
So, so it was corroborated.
And also where we're humans, I'mgoing to believe
somebody that comes off as likeI thought they were jet planes at first.
(31:39):
I'm going to believe
that person more than justI want to be like found UFO in my yard.
There's something to be saidabout the way that we judge
people, rightly or wrongly,with how they approached these things.
Yeah, no, it's so interesting.
And the military,they were encouraged enough
or influenced enough by all these reportsto start investigating it.
That's what's so interestingabout the Arnold thing
(32:01):
is this actually does makeeverybody want to look into it.
Again, Cold War kind of feeds into thisbecause we're worried
that the Russians are making weaponsor flying new things over our country.
So there was a big
effort by the governmentto try to figure this stuff out.
Aliens or not,they want to know. Yeah, and.
(32:23):
Read it exactly what is it?
So everybody'sheard of some of these organizations
or groups or studies,whatever you call it.
But there was ProjectSign was started after this.
Then it became Project Grudgeand then Project Blue Book,
which a lot of people have heard aboutbecause they're in so many movies
and documentaries and stuff.
But they did they did look at it.
And including two weeksafter Arnold saw this,
(32:43):
he actually had a right of reportto military intelligence.
And that's where he drewsome of the sketches and stuff that you've
probably seen,
because he wanted to share thosewith the military
and they actually saidthey kind of wrote it off.
They thought it was a mirageor a misidentification,
but they did say he was credible,like in their report.
It's like this guy's a credible guy. He'snot making it up.
He should be a writer.
(33:04):
That's what they were saying.
He should write for Buck Rogers. Yeah,
but they they said he was very credible.
If you see as your reports, I feel likeif you read the interview transcripts,
you're like, this sounds like a personwho is measured, who is considering
different possible explanations,who feels very detailed in what they saw.
I mean, it's been proven that when you arein an experience where you're afraid
(33:29):
or you're trying to evaluate, timealmost like slows down for you.
And that seems to match of kind of
what happened to himbecause he's able to gather so much data
and pick up so much detail in that shorttwo minute window.
Yeah.
And he experiencesit deeply enough that he can go
back and say, well, let me figure outthe distance between these mountains.
(33:50):
I can.
I timed how fast it went between.
You know that takes a lot of quickthinking in in the moment.
Yeah yeah.
It's it's it's really hard to hearsomebody that measured
and and really doubt them whatever he saw.
He I feel like he absolutely saw exactlywhat he described.
Yeah.
And that's that's one of those things
(34:10):
that just made me love this so muchbecause I do believe him.
And even just it had to be so intriguing
to make him want to look at it morebecause he's seen so many things up there.
You do see weird things in the sky.
There are natural occurrences.
And the fact that he was like,wait a second, let me make note of this.
Let me see how fast they're going.
(34:31):
It had to be very intriguing for him.
And Arnold ended up also saying,
you know, a lot of people thinkpeople do this for attention.
But remember, at the time,
UFO stories were not somethingthat people did to try to get attention
or make money. He never wrote.
He didn't try to write a book the yearafter this or sell
a radio special or something that
(34:51):
and he actually claimed
it hurt his businesslike he would go on meetings
and then people wouldn'twant to work with them
because they were like,this is the weirdo that saw Martians.
Yeah, yeah.
So it did kind of hurt his thing.
And he shied away from the UFO
crowd for yearsafter the initial flurry of activity.
And he didn't attendhis first UFO convention for 30 years.
So he had a yeah,he was not like ingrained in the community
(35:16):
and he did claim to have seen some otherstrange objects later on in his life.
I don't know exactly whenbecause the details were a little fuzzy,
but I think at least two times
he saw some other unidentified things,whatever they may be, and.
I didn't know that.
So he did go and just see more.
Do you know if it was whilehe was flying or.
I think it was while he was flying.
(35:36):
But I actually had a really tough timefinding details about that.
You just hear it mentioned a few timeslike, Oh, you saw something
a few other times.
It was like, that is the basis.
So I'm sure again, there's ufologistspeople that are spend their lives
looking into this that may know.
So right in
let me know a study of strange edemathat I'd love to actually hear about.
(35:56):
There are other sightingshe had and he passed away in 1984.
So he lived and lived a nice life.
That's I mean, it's such a short versionof a very kind
of, again,very historically impactful experience.
But that is thethat is the Kenneth Arnold story.
What do you think?
(36:16):
So had
he one never had that sighting or twojust decided on taking this to the grave?
Nobody's going to believe me.
You kind of have to wonderif flying saucer has was
taken out of the vocabulary, if that image
was never put in people's place to beginwith, how does that then impact
(36:37):
one just UFO culture in the narrativearound it
and to media films?
Yeah, so I because
a lot of people that might have been
the first time in pop culturethey were hearing these things.
I mean, War of the Worldsand stuff, of course.
But this is really engaging in itand bringing it.
Okay, this isn't just a storythat we're listening to for entertainment
(36:59):
that seems to be happeningin the real world.
And you know what's
how did he shape thingswithout even realizing it?
Yeah, it's I think he shaped things,like I said, up top
it more than he I think morethan he ever probably realized.
And I think more than most people realizebecause again, to me, that is
what is the most important part of thisstory, is seeing how we were impacted,
(37:22):
whether UFOs are, real or not,or aliens visited us or not.
The social kind of phenomena of this
is what fascinates me the most,and which I think is very strange.
And a lot of people have actually studiedthe craze of 1947, which started
with Arnold story as like the birthof the modern myth and religious studies.
(37:43):
People have like studied it and folklorist
because humans were highly suggestibleand suddenly
there's this craze and there's allevery newspaper is reporting.
Flying saucers.
Flying saucers, mantle. Flying saucers.
This person saw a flyingsaucer, doesn't it?
It makes other peoplewant to see flying saucers.
(38:03):
So as soon as they seesomething they don't recognize in the sky,
they're going to see their mind is goingto create the image of a flying saucer.
And that's what I find fascinating,because the misquote led to
this very specific thing.
And all these people
I'm not saying peopledidn't see unidentified things in the sky,
but I do think they're misidentifying
(38:24):
something or their imaginationskind of filling in holes
and making it really hardto actually find out if they are aliens.
Flying Sky. In 1947.
But yeah, it's so I don't have an exactanswer for a lot of those questions.
But I do know that this is aan amazing example of how us as
humans can can be
(38:46):
basically our imaginations can be affectedby everything around us.
And I'm a big believer in how pop culture
becomes like fact and becomes history.
So this is an example of that,of like this one thing happened in
even though it was misquoted,it turned into fact over time
because now we imagine aliens and flyingsaucers so.
(39:08):
Yeah. Yeah yeah.
So seriesI would love to hear some of the theories
you came across.
But for Arnold sighting.
For Arnold Saturday sighting.
Sorry, I,I switched gears there really quickly. I
know there's there's a
there's a lot no oneI mean, a lot of people
(39:29):
just think he misidentified,but that's a very general thing.
But if he didn't see aliens,people have suggested like reflections,
water on the window which we can debunkbecause we actually
would. They debunked how.
He opened up his windowwhen he flew by again.
It was a little thing.
Yeah, he he took itstraight through. Okay.
So he didn't thatI thought I saw one theory of like
(39:53):
I want to say, like pelicans or somebig bird that could have been reflective
because they were wet or something,which sounds a little insane to me.
Yeah.
Somebody had a report after Arnold'ssighting, and I can't remember who it was
that talked about this.
It's like a weather
event or phenomena,but it makes the tops of the mountains
(40:16):
look like they're almost floating.
And he could have seen thatbecause they're reflective on the snow
and whatever.
But he said they're moving and he was ableto track them moving between the two.
Well, it just doesn't make sensebecause they're not moving.
Yeah. And even. Oh, this is interesting.
So Jay Allen Hynek, who's famous for he'san astronomer
(40:37):
that worked on the project Blue Bookand investigated UFOs for the Air Force.
He actually had a calculationafter the Arnold event as he studied it,
that said they were only moving400 miles an hour
because is I guess he assumedbecause of the visuals that Arnold
was able to see the objectsactually had to be closer to him.
(41:00):
And because it's the wayour eyes can actually
distinguish certain details at a distance.
So if they were at the distancethat Arnold says Hynek doesn't believe
that he could have seenthose details. Interesting.
So he estimates them to be closer.
And that changes the rate of speed.
He calculates 400, which is possible,especially because they were testing
(41:20):
jets, flying them around,including in Washington.
So he actually thinks they could be jetsor rockets.
I think later on in his life,Hynek changed his mind and was like,
Oh, no, there'smaybe I was wrong about that.
But it is it is an interesting theory.
That's a really interesting theory. Yeah.
Because he he could have miscalculatedlike you can, especially at that distance.
(41:41):
Like I misjudged distances in my driveway.
I can imagine flying.
I know he's a pilot,
so he has experience, but still, you know,your eyes can deceive you.
Some people have suggestedjets, jet planes as well,
because their exhaust can make can createsort of like bright shapes
that could look like these these imageshe saw.
(42:02):
Yeah. So those arethose are kind of the basic ones.
Some people say, like balloons, butthey're not really looking at the case.
There's gosh, just the balloon.
And it's like, well.
It's none of this feels like,
okay, I guess some of theseif that was truly what it was.
Okay, weird.
But we got a smart guywho flies all the time who
who is smart
(42:22):
enough to say maybe this is a reflectionor something in the plexiglass.
Let me look atlet me open this window and take a look.
He's consideringa lot of different things.
I don't know. None of it to me is likethat's the answer.
It was just pelican. Yes.Or or like, yeah.
And that's where this this case to mekind of takes or keeps
it doesn't take a strange turn,but it keeps being strange
(42:44):
after all this time is that I don't thinkthere is one good theory
that points to it being a mistake for,being a manmade thing.
And again, I'm a skeptic.
Like I'm not somebody that just jumps toUFOs being there all the time, but like,
I just have yet to come across somethingthat's like, Oh, yeah,
yeah, it had to be jet planes.
Like, I was.
(43:04):
Like, Yeah, maybe it could be,but I can't, I can't just
jump on board with that 100% be like,Oh yeah, it's totally jet planes.
Then it's like, no, there's,there was enough strangeness to it.
And he even talked about the formation.
Was it right in the waythey kind of flipped and bobbed?
I don't think jetplanes would have been doing so.
I do think the the question still remains,what did he see?
(43:26):
And that's me.
That's the only question, because I feellike whatever he saw, he described it.
You described it.
I believe he saw what he says he saw.
And the question is,okay, but then what was it?
Yeah, but what was it?
Carrie,you're the guest. You have the answer.
I have the answer.
I should have more than just like.
(43:47):
Well, it's not birds.
It's not.
Birds.
It's I will say this
just because to get most of the details
he did kind of change his descriptionlater in life.
And so in the initial drawings he had
for military intelligence, it is likehalf a plate with the point that the
(44:10):
I can't do with my fingers for you,but a point at the end.
And then later on itbecame that boomerang thing where people
if there's a famous photo of him
holding that like silver boomerangish object high point in the middle.
So it became like more of this pie shaped
that then turned into a boomeranglater on in his life.
I don't
I don't
sort of turn against him because of that,
(44:33):
because I do think our memories dochange over time.
I agree.
And it's not big enough to it'snot like a drastic enough change or like,
oh, he's making it up.
Also, he said in some interviews,you don't hear this very often.
And this is kind of like one of the thingsthat gets dropped sometimes.
He actually saidthey weren't all the same shape. Oh.
(44:53):
But like most of the timeyou don't hear that.
But he claims that they were all slightlydifferent shapes and sizes.
I mean, that's really weird.Isn't that weird?
So he could have seen when she was alive.
So for us to ask him, buthe could have seen both that like pie, pie
plate cut in halfwith a point and a boomerang, you know. So
that's really interesting.
(45:13):
And I'd never heard that.
And I also don't feel likeyou get a lot of UFO stories
where if there's multiple objectsthat they're different shapes.
Yeah, you're right.
Right. I did.
I didn't think about that. Yeah.
So that's right.
So Yeah. Saying that is it.
I didn't know thatand I didn't know that there was
(45:35):
ever a discrepancy
really of how he was describing the shape.
So but yeah, anytime somebodyeven if it's like the smallest
inconsistency, it does start
to crumble the story a little bit.
But I still feel like it's very credible.
I still feel likehe saw exactly what he said.
He saw. That.
Yeah, I agree.
(45:56):
I agree.
And again, just the this story
I'm I mean, we can't figure it out,but this story,
again,has this historical significance to it
where I actually think it helped,even if not directly, but indirectly,
I think it helpedinspire minds at the time.
(46:17):
Like we're getting into the space age,
I think thinking about aliens and UFOsand flying saucers.
It's inspiring people
to get into physics and scienceand astronomy and also fiction.
Like, I think this helped inspireall the movies.
I mean, itobviously inspired all the movies,
but eventually, like TV showslike Star Trek and all this kind of stuff,
(46:38):
and we still use the term flyingsaucer today.
So like itit really historic connects to us
in a much more significant way
than Roswell than some of the other,like famous UFO stories.
I think it connects to so much of
what our lives areand sort of the culture and society
(46:58):
we live in, thinking about fictionand alien technology and everything else.
So that's reallywhat drew my attention to this as a story,
just to kind of Matos and the UFOs.
But I just yeah,I'm really fascinated by that.
And I do I have a quote herethat I actually thought
was really interesting, too.
This is from an article in Wired,and the writer says, maybe during
(47:18):
eitherkind of crest, more people really do truly
excuse me, really do seetruly strange things as could be the case
if spaceships or airforces are actually descending,
or maybe the upsurge happens
because of what social scientists callperceptual contagion, a catching disease
whose sole symptom is thatyou suddenly notice things
(47:40):
that have always existedand interpret them differently.
So that's in relation to the craze
that happened where everybody issuddenly seeing flying saucers.
So there is a socialcan tejan that can happen
and a lot of people have even connected itto like the dancing disease.
Have you ever read about thator heard about that?
So there is it's in the Middle Ages.
(48:01):
Some time I've listen to a podcast on it,but there's like a couple of towns
that this has happened to historicallywhere suddenly
someone starts dancingand then someone else start dancing,
and then suddenlythe whole town is dancing.
They don't know why and they can't stopand people will die.
They'll fall overafter days of dancing. And.
And it's this weird.
It's almost like a virus kind of thing.
We're just like we feed off each other,and that's that social contagion thing.
(48:25):
We're like, Yeah,it is a social phenomena.
How we howwe can be affected by each other
and what everybody else saysor sees or talks about.
This area you also brought up earlier
in the episode of the factthat there was so much going on
that was causing peopleto look at the sky in a new way.
(48:45):
Yeah, I guess, you know, before it's like,what was the sky?
It was stars, it was whatever and that.
And now it's a threatand when you're looking at the sky
looking for threats, maybe certain
thingsstand out to you in a different way.
Yeah, yeah.
You see things slightly differentlybecause you're thinking about it
or it's also related to like,
(49:10):
my son can what a Honda is because he saw,
I guess he learned thelike H logo from somebody.
And so now hehe points out Honda is on the road.
And I keep saying to myself,I thought I never saw Honda's or rarely
saw Honda's in my neighborhoodand now I see them every other car.
(49:30):
And so it's thingif you put it in the mind
and then suddenly now you're seeing.Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
So do you have any other theoriesor comments or questions about Kenneth
Arnold?
I do have one more thing to dobefore we wrap up, but I just wanted to
see if you had anythingyou wanted to bring up.
I guess I don'tI guess my my final takeaway of this story
is what I repeated multiple timesis that I do believe what he is saying.
(49:57):
I don't think he's making it up at all.
There is enough
credibility
there that I want to give himthe benefit of the doubt.
And I feel like he lived a whole life.
I mean, how old was he when he died?
Oh, I haven't done the math. In 84.
He was 32 and 47 and he died.
So there you go.
So, I mean, this whole full life,he had plenty of chances
(50:21):
to flush his credibility down the toiletand he didn't.
And so, yeah, I think that's
the reason why the story is enduringbecause yeah,
it was really probably pretty true.
Absolutely.
And it also doesn't
it really doesn't make us
or allow us to debunk potential
(50:43):
alien visitations, which is a it's fun,fun to think about it.
You know, it's good for our imagination,but also interesting and strange
like it is. Yeah.
So before we
we finishup, we have one more scene that I wrote.
So this is the Arnold too thing.
So this is a, a kind of a recreation
(51:04):
of an interview excuse me, of an interviewbetween Edward Murrow,
the famous newsman and reporter,and Kenneth Arnold.
They had an interview over the phone
years later.
I don't know how many years laterI should have written that down,
but it is I don't know.
It just it's interesting.
It puts a nice little,little period on the story.
(51:26):
So do you want to just keep being Arnold?
I would love to keep being Arnold.
Okay.
I'm not going to do an impressionof Edward Murrow.
I can't really do that.
All right.
Here we go.
Flying saucers was a historic misquote.
Well, Mr. Arnold'soriginal explanation has been forgotten.
The term flyingsaucer has become a household word.
(51:48):
Arnold says that
some pilots in the Northwest have reportedseeing them on eight separate occasions.
We asked for his personal opinion.
I don't know how to best explain that.
I more or less have reserved an opinionas to what I think.
Naturally,being a natural or natural born American.
Some that later,
(52:09):
if it's not made by our scienceor our army
air forces, I am inclined to believe it is
of an extraterrestrial origin.
Extraterrestrial origin?
You mean you think there's a possibilitythey may be coming out of space
from another planet?
I suppose that's hard for peopleto take seriously.
(52:30):
Well, I'll tell you this much.
All the airplane pilots, none of us haveappreciated, appreciated being laughed at.
We made our reportsbecause we thought that
if our government didn't know what it was,it was only our duty
to report it to our nationand to our Air Force.
I think it's something that is of concernto every person in this country,
(52:51):
and I don't think it's anything for peopleto get hysterical about.
That's just my frank opinion on it.
So that is how it all began.
That was the trigger action.
Kenneth Arnold's storywent scurrying over the news, wires, radio
and newspapers, picked it up,and then within days the country broke out
into a flood of flying saucer observation.
(53:17):
Ba ba ba ba ba.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, we can, we can wrap it up there.
That is
considering I have COVID right now,I think I didn't do too
terrible of a jobtrying to remember things.
I think you did a really good jobof asking why
and it's such a tip of the iceberg.
I think this is a great
(53:38):
this is a great wayfor you to get your toes into this world.
Yeah, I need to do it more. I am. Sure.
I'm fascinated. I'm not going to lie.
I am so intimidated to do UFO storiesbecause people
are hardcore into itand I'm like an armchair fan.
Like,I know weird other strange things so much
better than I knowUFO and Alien and UAP stories.
(54:01):
That's going to make yoube a great person to explore
because you're looking at it in the eyes.
You're like, Yeah, allies on this stuff.
We need new theories.
Oh, well.
Thank. You.
So I think I think this is it.
This is a great start. I think.
Do you have any suggestions on on oneor any any that I should look at?
I mean, are you into
(54:23):
anything that Tom from Blink 182
is is on because he's he's into so he's.
I only know that just
that he's like got some stuffI don't actually know the details so.
Maybe I should look at the videos.
Yeah, it's going to blow your socks off.
Let me tell you.
Now, you
(54:44):
I know that you've done some some writingand stuff, like articles and things.
Did you ever write anything remotelyclose to, like, a UFO
or some sort of sighting type of articleor story or.
Anything I've never been paid to?
Okay, that stuff exists,but I've never been paid.
People tend to pay me forfor fashion advice and yeah,
(55:05):
what to buy and stuff like that. But
I, I haveyeah, this is one of my favorite topics.
I just, I don't know,I don't know where I could go
to actually write this stuff for fun.
Yeah. No.
Hey, I'll let you know if I come across.
I mean, I got samples.
(55:26):
Yeah, there was no the storyyou told me or you brought up
when I was with you a few months ago.
I think there was a videothat had recently been passed
around with people in it.
Was it the one in Santa monica?
Do you even remember what the video wasthat you talked about?
I think it was.
I want to say Santa monica.That sounds right.
I can find a video and send it to you.
(55:47):
But yeah, that was going around.
If It's the one thing.
No, it wasn't debunked was it.
Oh if it's the one I think it is I, I,
I debunked it as well as I thinkmany other people.
It is if it's the same onebecause it may not be.
So we'll have to look.But I think it's the Santa monica Pier.
There's a group of people up in the skyand there's this like triangle.
I think it's like three different lights,but they form like a triangle together,
(56:10):
I think.
And, and it's like flies down above.
And I looked at itand when I first saw it, it was just like
a quick social media setting.I was like, Oh, that's cool.
And then didn't think anything of ituntil I went back to look at it again.
And the first thing I noticed was
everybody's got their phones upfilming it.
So I'm like, Well, this is interesting
(56:31):
because I don't see any of their footagealso on YouTube and stuff.
Was it that one?
And then you notice people filmingall of their screens
have the same angle as likethey all have the same angle.
Of the object.But then when they're like, you know.
Where they're likebringing it down to the ground,
you can still see the screenand it's not moving.
So it's obviously just a visual effect.
(56:52):
And nowadays people be carefulif you are trying to.
Find.
UFO videos nowadays.
Yes, everybody has a phone
which should make it easierto like see an alien in the sky.
But there's so many even like simple plugins, like visual effect plug ins
that like a six year old onthe computer can put everything in
and make it look like an aliensflying above.
(57:13):
Yeah, so,so just be careful of, of stuff out there.
Look for the little detailslike the screens and that video.
But yeah, it's the same video.I don't think it's a big one.
I would like to give myself some creditthat I would have.
Yeah, it did.
It did take me a few timesso I didn't see it right away.
But but yeah.
No, I would love to see, see more.I love them.
Well, thank you.
(57:33):
Do you want to tell peoplewhere they can find you?
Do you have likedo you want people to find you on social?
You know, I mean, I'm out thereif if we cross each other's path
and that's great.
Well, we're good.
I'm really I'm really hopingthat you do more of this
and we can exchange infobecause this is really fun.
(57:54):
Oh, I would love to. Yeah.
I mean, from now on,you're my UFO specialist and will love it.
Yeah, that would be amazing.
So cool. Well, thank you.
This was a lovely excuse
to get to hang out with youand not your husband, so that was good.
Okay.
Well, yes.
Thank you, Carrie,
so much for being on and listeningto the story of Kenneth Arnold.
(58:16):
And that's our show.
Thank you so much for listening.
In my delirium of Being Sick,
I forgot to give any sort of callto actions at the top of the show.
So if you're enjoying this series, pleasesubscribe rate and leave a review.
If you want your review read,send me an email.
A study of strange at gmail.comon the subject of emails and UFOs.
(58:36):
If you've seen an unidentifiedflying object or an identified, submerged,
submerged object or anything of thatnature, please send me your stories.
I do want to compile
and do an episode in the futurewith the people's personal accounts.
A Study of strange at gmail.com.
You can also follow us on Instagram.
At a study of strange,you can send us a message there
(58:58):
if you like, and also a great wayto support the show here.
In the early days,
in the infancy of a study of Strangeis to check out our Patreon account.
You can find that through our website.
His study of strange scum.
You'll see a little tab for that.
We have a lot of additional content.
We're going to have a new episode
of News of Strangeness next week,which I really enjoy doing.
(59:20):
So I love putting this outfor our Patreon supporters.
And finally, on our next episode,if COVID doesn't slow me down too
much is a mystery that's haunted a familythrough multiple generations.
Now it's the case of the solder children.
I've been readingabout this case for probably
15 years or so, and I'm excited to say
(59:42):
that I've learned some new things overthe last few weeks researching this.
So I'm looking forwardto sharing those details until next time.
Thank you and goodnight.
Perhaps the most prominent modern socialand cultural phenomena
is the unidentified flying objector unidentified aerial phenomena.
Today, belief in aliens is at an all timehigh,
and there are numerous reports of UFOsfrom countless credible witnesses.
But where did the modern belief in UFOscome from?
(00:21):
Shows like Ancient Aliensand Others lead us to believe
that humans have always seenstrange things in the sky.
And that is true today, though, pop
culture mixes with science and hoaxesin this identifications.
All of these things combinelike a stew of ideas to influence
our beliefsabout intelligent life out in the cosmos.
(00:43):
But we can actually trace the beginningsof the modern UFO to one event.
On June 24th, 1947,
tonight,we look at a man named Kenneth Arnold
who accidently inspiredthe birth of the term flying saucer.
In the few weeks that followed, sawthe entire country and parts of the world
(01:03):
have a flurry of flying saucer sightings
and nothing has been the same since.
This is a study of
strange.
(01:32):
Well, welcome to the show.
I'm Michael May.
And today my guest is Carrie Kina. Carrie.
You're married to Tim, my former partnerin crime, an autobiography.
And I wanted to have you on this episodebecause I was at your house,
like, a month or two ago.
And you did mention some UFO thing.
And I was like, Oh, well,I do want to do a UFO story.
(01:54):
So I just I had you in mindwhen I finally decided on one.
What do you believe in terms of UFOs?
Do you believe that aliens have visitedEarth?
That's a huge question.
Yes, it is. I guess my answer is maybe.
I feel like there's a lot of evidence, butI'm at my heart a very skeptical person.
(02:15):
I'm definitely in that.
I want to believe cluband I want to believe it's happened.
But it's a lot of time when I go caseby case and I look at stories, it's it's
easy for the skeptic to come out, butit is my favorite in the world of strange.
It is my favorite topic to explore.
Oh, nice.
Well, I'm excited to have you on for thisthen. I.
(02:36):
Yeah, I'm just my own personalbelief is I'm very similar where I'm like,
maybe like if I believe in any weirdthing out there, it's that there.
I believe there's definitely intelligentlife somewhere in the universe.
I just don't know of Dave for sure.
Visited and flown by, and they're like,Hey, what's up, guys?
You know, wave it down to us.
But there is there's a lot of evidenceto point to strange things.
(02:58):
There's a lot of unidentifiedflying objects.
And yeah,anything else you have to explore?
Like what?
When someone says a UFO.
Well, what are you talking about?
Is it just a craftyou don't you can identify?
Or is it do you really think that, hey,this came from 100 million
light years away and they're just sayingthat they just go in and out or
(03:19):
and yeah, I'm into basically
any new theory I hear about UFOs.
I'm down that rabbit hole.
I've had enough of that.
It's just it's my favorite topic.
So I'm so stoked to talk about thiswith you. Well, thanks.
Now, have you ever heard of the KennethArnold story before I brought it up?
I feel like I have heard a version of it,
(03:42):
but I knew it might have been on like aread it or somewhere deep.
So I'm really curiousto hear your research version of what.
Okay, well, now the pressure's on.
Pressure's on. Yeah, the pressure is on.
Yeah.
The Kenneth Arnold storyit's in takes place in 1947,
and I was lookingat a bunch of different topics
(04:05):
to potentially dowith an unidentified flying object
or unidentified aerial phenomena,as a lot of people are calling it now.
And I looked at like Roswell and I lookedat some less famous, strange stories
and there's they get so bogged down likethere's so many different versions of it.
There's so many people
that are hardcore conspiracy theoriststhat they have that argument of, Oh,
(04:26):
that's just a cover up,there's a conspiracy.
And it's like, Well,you're not debating it, right?
And the thing that stood out to meabout Kenneth
Arnold story is historically, it'svery significant because it
it started the term flying saucerand started this craze
almost like a mass hysteriathat happened immediately after it that
I think we still feel the the effects ofin sort of like society and pop culture
(04:50):
and how we think about UFOsor alien intelligence.
It's kind of reverberated down the lineand is connected to everything.
But also because he was immediatelyinterviewed by lots of people
the day after the two daysafter this sighting.
We're notwe don't get as bogged down in his
in his reportsas you do with other things, like Roswell.
(05:13):
It was days or weeks before the guy, like,brought some stuff in
and there's time there.
And then no one talked about it againfor 30 years.
And then that KennethArnold story is suffice to say,
is far simpler but almost more importantthan some of these other like UFO stories.
And I don't think anybody'sever had a good theory
(05:34):
to say what he actually saw in termsof like debunking
it might beingsome sort of alien technology.
So it leaves the door open foralmost like whatever you want to believe.
So I just I find it very fascinatingwith that and one in a long tangent there.
Want one away from my notes? I'm sorry.
No, I think it's a good
story too,because it is it's a very simple story.
(05:57):
It's really difficult to debunk.
I think I have read a couple of theoriesof what
he potentially could have seen, but
I mean, they just feel like guesses.
They just feel throwaway.
And it's like, okay, sure,we can do that with anything.
But oh, that's yeah.
That's a good point.And we'll get into that a little bit.
So let me give a little contextfor the time
(06:20):
this happens, because I think that'sreally important to them.
It's 1947and it is like a perfect storm of paranoia
and also just it's the atomic ageas the Cold War is starting.
Atomic technology is is big on everybody'smind.
Weapons are being developedby the United States government,
(06:41):
plus our potential enemies overseas.
And the Truman Doctrinewas announced in 1947,
which essentially ramped usup to the Cold War.
The Air Force was formed in 1947 as well.
Wow. Okay. Yeah.
And people around the countrywere very aware of like massive amounts
of weapons development, development of jetplanes, of rocket technology.
(07:04):
People are aware of itlike they're not privy to the details,
like all of that's classified,but they know that it's going on.
The UFO phenomena wasn't what it is today.
It was not a hugely popular topic today.
I read 25% of Americansbelieve that we've been visited by aliens.
But back in 1947,there's no number on this.
(07:25):
But like it was probably a solid
guess is maybe like 3% like right?
Very few peoplejust because it wasn't thought about it
wasn't what everybody did.
And even after War of the Worlds,that was broadcast in 1938, like famous
radio program and from the book and peoplethought Martians were attacking it.
That was popular, but it still didn'tlike stick on people's imaginations
(07:49):
from a cultural waythat UFO was kind of due today.
Yeah.
Let's let's get into the storyso everybody can actually hear it.
This is the Kenneth Arnold story of seeing
a flying saucer or as he wouldsay, it's not a flying saucer.
So it was June 24th, 1947,
and 32 year old Kenneth Arnold,he was a businessman.
(08:10):
He sold like firefighting equipmentout of Boise, Idaho,
and he would travel for businessin his own private plane.
It was a call air aid, too,which is a two seat single engine.
This was important for his businessbecause now he could he could approach
clientele all around the Pacific Northwestof the States instead of just Boise.
And he had around 9000 flying hours,which means he's
(08:35):
very experienced as a pilotand I would imagine very experienced
seeing things held outside of the cockpit.
And on this day, he was
flying to Yakima,Washington, from Charles Washington,
and he was passing through the CascadeMountains, which includes like Mount
Rainier and Mount Adams.
(08:56):
And he deviated from his.
Sorry, everybody.
I actually I have COVID right now.I'll announce it to everybody.
So my voice is just a little weird.
So I'm trying my best.
And Carrie is not in the room with me.
We are separate.
So Arnold deviated from his flight pathto search
for a downed Marine Corps plane.
(09:19):
And this happenedabout six months earlier.
It was part of a six planeconvoy from San Diego to Seattle,
and the plane was a Curtis r5c1,also known as a C 46.
And this simple shortversion of the story is
weather got bad for planesdiverted to Portland, Oregon.
Two kept going, but one never made it.
(09:41):
And the pilot had actually checkedin via radio
on the way to Seattle and was requestingto fly above the weather.
But the plane was unpressurized,so I'm not sure actually
how much above the weatherhe could have gone in and it disappeared
and had three crew and 29 Marinesthat were lost in this crash.
Yeah.
And Arnold,I actually heard in a radio interview,
(10:03):
I've listened to a number of them.
I've been able to find the onehe gave later on.
He actually mentioned that he had lookedfor this plane before,
like it was a well known thing.
There was a $5,000 reward,which is, you know, that's
a lot of money todayand especially back then.
And so because he was going by the areawhere it was thought that it crashed,
he was like, oh, I'll just takea little bit of time and do a sweep.
And if I get lucky, I'll find the plane,and if not, I'll just carry on.
(10:26):
So he had actually done this before.
This wasn't out of the ordinaryfor him to look for this plane,
and it was a clear, beautiful day.
So it was kind of like perfect conditionsto actually search for this plane.
He made a turn at 9200 feet and a flash
in his eyes kind of got his attention.
And it came from about 15 miles away.
(10:48):
He thinks this is just before 3 p.m.,by the way.
And then sort of
he kept getting these flashes of lightin his eye and he's looking around.
He did notice another plane
in a different direction,kind of further off, I think a DC five.
And then he noticedwhere the flashes came from
and he saw nine straight objects
(11:09):
in flying in some sort of formationwhich they would flip or bob up and down
and they would reflectwhen they made this movement,
they would
reflect the sunlight back into his eyesand helped him actually see these things.
And now I'm going to read a quote from
one of the plethora of articlesthat have him talking about it.
So I'll just kind of
read from his own words what he whathe went through and what he saw.
(11:34):
I noticed
to the left of me chains, whichlooked like a tail of a Chinese kite,
which were weaving and goingat a terrific speed across the base of Mt.
Rainier.
At first I thought they were geese,but they were going too fast.
I immediately changed my mind and decided
they were new jetplanes flying information.
I thought I would clock thembecause it was such a clear day
(11:54):
due to the fact that I had MountSt Helens in Mount Adams
to clock them by, I thought I'dsee how fast they were going.
They seemed to flip and flash in the sunlike a mirror.
In fact,
I happened to be at an anglefrom the sun that it seemed to hit the top
of these peculiar looking thingsin such a way that it almost blinded you
when you looked at itthrough your plexiglass windshield.
It was about a minute to three
(12:15):
when I started to clock themon my second hand clock,
and as I looked at them,I kept looking for their tails,
but they didn't have any tailsthat something was wrong with my eyes.
So I'd turn the plane around
and open the window and sure enough,I couldn't find any tails on them.
They looked something like a pie plate
that was cut in halfwith a convex triangle in the rear.
(12:35):
I thought maybe they're jetplanes with tails
painted green or brown, and you couldn'tsee them and didn't think too much of it.
So that's his description of what he saw.
The whole experience lastedonly two and a half minutes.
Like this is a quick a quick thing.
And when I the common story is that heyou know, he's using the mountains, Mt.
(12:58):
Rainier, Mount Adams.
And so he has these visual references
to see, okay,they're passing this mountain now.
They're in front of that mountain.
So he can use the distancebetween the two mountains
to kind of calculatehow fast they're going.
And when I
started reading about the story,I kept thinking, he's
doing the calculations in the plane.Right?
He's doing a break there.
He did it.
And that makes way more sense to me.
(13:19):
He actually it wasn'ttill he got to his final destination
that they that he actually likedid the math.
He just sort of got got the reading on it.
And he estimated that they were going1200 miles an hour.
He know later onsome other people came out and said, oh,
he was incorrect about the distancebetween the two mountains.
So they were actuallygoing 1700 miles an hour.
(13:42):
So regardless, 1200 or 1700. Why.
No planes went that fast at that time,no jet planes.
They were testing the speed of sound.
I think it's 760or thereabouts miles per hour.
We hadn't broken the speed of sound yet,so planes didn't even go that fast.
And I also read in some interview lateron, Arnold gave,
(14:05):
he said, even if you take the lowend of the calculation that he had
and he said 800 miles an hourat the low end, which is still faster
than anything elsethat was flying at the time.
I kept reading that he calculatedor assumed the wingspan
of these flying things to be 50 feet, but
(14:25):
when he landed, he kept saying 100.
So I don't know where I kept where people.
Maybe he gave a range in some interviews,
but it's somewherebetween 50 to 100 feet in Wingspan.
And I said it in the storyand I'll say it a million times tonight.
He never said they were flying saucers.
Right? Right.
(14:46):
That's kind of the famous part of this.
He never once describes them as saucers.
He always talks about pie plates or
cut in half with a point,or he talks about saucers.
Skipping on water is a storythat he would tell a lot of reporters
because he meant it in the waythat they flew.
Not in their shapeand shape the way that they move.
Exactly.
(15:07):
So he landed in Yakima, Washington, right
after all this, and he told his storyto the aircraft manager.
And then he headed off to his nextdestination because he was just refueling,
which was Pendleton, Oregon,which where he was going to stay.
He was there for like an air showor something like that.
And when he landed in Oregon, wordhad already gotten out
from when he first landed in Yakimaand told his story.
(15:28):
So people were there asking him questions
about what he saw, so muchso that there was enough interest
that he had to go by the EastOregonian newspaper the next day.
So a lot of times the common story is likehe lands in Oregon
and there's press all aroundand they're asking him questions.
That's not the case.
He didn't talk about pressto land to the press until the next day,
(15:49):
but people were asking himquestions that night when he landed.
So the next day he meets in the EastOregonian offices.
And at this point he had donehis calculations for the speed and build
biggish.
And the editor,Nolan Skiff, were in the office,
and they thought it was,you know, an interesting mystery.
But they were like,this is intriguing for readers.
Like, we got to do an article on this.
(16:10):
So they The East Oregonian puts outthat afternoon,
there was a headline in the newspaperthat said Impossible maybe.
But see, in his believe,it says Flier, which is such a 1940s.
Headline, I love. Yeah.
And so if that newspaper
were the only newspaperto publish the story,
we might never really knowabout Kenneth Arnold.
(16:31):
But within a day he was being approachedby every news organization in the country.
Pretty mucheverybody wanted to talk to the guy.
So now, now here's the fun part.
Did you get thosethe scenes that I sent you earlier?
I did, yeah. Yeah.
Are you in them?
But I didn't.
I didn't.
Deep dove, because I'm like,maybe it's more fun to be surprised.
That's right.
(16:51):
I normally don't even send up till rightbefore, so.
No, you don't have to do a deep dove.
But if you can pull up, if you're ableto the first scene, I think it's Arnold.
One is what I guess.
In terms of the scene I wrote,
all of his quotes are real quotesfrom interviews he gave,
but Ikind of wrote it like a press conference.
(17:13):
There was no press conference.
He was talking to press via the telephoneand letters and telegrams. But
I just thought just for for for dramaticpurposes, it's a press conference.
So why don't you read Arnold and I'll readdescriptions in the new newspaperman.
Okay.
Are you going to give meare you going to give me
if I, like, stumble,am I going to get multiple takes or.
No, it's all one take.
(17:33):
But stumbles are natural.
I mean, didyou ever listen to Tim's episode?
I you're going to think that I'mthe worst wife.
I can tell you the only one I haven't
felt like.
Yeah.
I think in Tim's episode, I think I wasthe one that couldn't do an accent.
And he actually did pretty good
because he was doing like a Boston accentand kind of nailed nailed.
(17:54):
It because of me. I don't know.
Maybe he was trying to do the Kennedys,I think.
But yeah, I kept messing up.
So no stumbling. Stumbling is fine.
There's no. Pressure.This is this is. All supposed to be fun.
So, yes, again, this is a dramatization
of a nonexistent press conferencewith Kenneth Arnold's
in the East Oregonian newspaper offices.
(18:15):
During the day.
Kenneth Arnold is taking KennethArnold is talking see irony messed up
do a lot to
a large group of old timey reportersshouting to get their questions answered.
Photographers, flashbulbs, clackeach time Arnold begins to speak.
Mr. Arnold. Mr. Arnold,you said you saw a flash.
What exactly did you see? It startled me.
I assumed it was some militarylieutenant out with a shiny P-51,
(18:39):
and they caught the reflection of the sun.
But what did they look like?
Well, it looked like a chain of sorts,nine of them in total.
And they were sort of oval,like a pie plate cut in half.
But with a convex point at the back,the one up front.
Could it have been the Russians?
Should we be worried?
I can't say ifif it's not from our government.
(19:01):
I hope the military investigates.
They were in a formation,but not of any type of formation.
Our military flies.
Mr. Arnold, over here.
What were they flying like?
Couldn't these have been just new fangledjet planes?
Well, they flipped last as they flewerratically, like boats on rough water.
They would skip and sailand give off flashes
(19:24):
like you take a softwareand ship it across the water.
That's how they flew.
I've done the math
and when I clocked them, they were goingroughly 1200 miles per hour.
That's faster than any jet plane.
I'm so sorry.
1090 news.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
That's an old fashioned jet plane. That.
(19:46):
Yeah, I love it.
I love it.
I could spend my life talking.
I should just start talking like that.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Just bring it back. Yeah.
So the point of this scene is to showthat the media,
they went crazy,like they ate up this story.
The AP newswire was talking to himand sending out reports
(20:07):
and in articles, variousother agencies and distribution services
in the news game where we're calling himand sending letters and talking to him
and it is the 1947 equivalentof going viral.
Yeah.
And no one knows exactlywho coined the term flying saucer,
but it came out in the papersafter these interviews.
(20:29):
And again,
he described it as a pie plate or saucersipping a water, stuff like that.
And so he he called the flying saucer term
just a really bad misquote.
Yeah, but it caught on, you know,that was the de facto term
for UFOs for decades.
So it's such a quick visual.
(20:49):
If someone does flying saucer,it's it's there in your head
right away where I feel likeI've seen the the drawings
or the images of what he's claimedhe saw and it's yeah.
It's not a saucer, it'smore like almost like a bat wing or.
Yeah. Boomerang or something. Yeah.
It's like a click. It's a quick visual.
(21:10):
I can see why somebody might throw itin and a headline and it caught on.
Absolutely.
And I hadn't thought of it that way,but it is a very just a simple describe
Dave saying it is very catchyand it makes you visualize it and see it
where UFO, which was a termthat was not used yet at the time
or even UAP, there's a lot of peopleare using that's more broad.
(21:31):
It's broad on purpose.
But like it doesn't make meI think of a million different things.
I mean. Think about anything. Yeah.
Hey, everyone, I
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(22:37):
or see our shownotes for a link. Thank you.
So the
influence of these reports coming out,they it's huge.
I mean the influenceit affects pop culture.
You see, like all the B-moviesof the 1950s and sixties,
all the alien moviesare all in flying saucers
(22:58):
through today, even, but even in likepulp magazines and comic books.
Suddenly that is thethat's the image that everybody likes.
It's become such a like kitsch,Americana, classic story of its own.
And that's where it started.
Yes. Any old timey alien story,you think even if you're thinking
(23:18):
of like Roswell or alien autopsy, you have
that this is where this isthe true birth of it.
This is where it came from.
That's right.
And again, just theI think the descriptive nature of it and
it being so visual by the end of the week,this kind of had started a craze.
Right.
All these other people are now thinkingthat aliens are on flying
(23:39):
through our atmosphereand they think they see things.
And Arnold story kind of broke the ice.
Like suddenly hundredsand hundreds and hundreds of stories
come out of peopleseeing these unidentified flying objects.
But for the most part,they're describing them as saucers
and like I saw saucers and I'll givesome examples on the 27th of June.
(24:03):
So this is three days after his sighting,the Portland Oregonian published a report
that a woman in Bremerton, Washington,sold the same mysterious saucers.
But she's thinking of fully round saucers.
A Chicago man, I think, in the same day.
So also nine saucers.
A railroad engineer in Illinoiscalled in with
(24:23):
seeing nine flying pans, as he called it.
And then two weeks later,a man named Rhodes in Arizona took
a picture of an object that Arnold latersaid looked kind of like what he saw.
That's a deeper storythat I'm not going to go into.
But RHODES. He's one of.
These, like,
conspiratorial kind of storiesbecause the FBI apparently showed up
and took the photosand no one. Knew the negatives.
(24:45):
Right? Yeah.
And those are just examples.
Those are very limited examples.
But this is happening all the time
and I usually think I have some dateswritten down and look at my notes.
Yeah.
So the total number of reports are debatedbecause it's hard to actually track
each one in.
Some newspapers are picking upthe same story or reporting on the same
like a storythey saw in another newspaper.
(25:07):
So it's actually it's really hardto figure it out exactly, though.
But between June 25th and July 3rd,there's roughly between
like 12 to 24 reports on most most days
by Independence Day that year, July 4th,
the sightings rose really sharply.
There were 160reports on July 4th and fifth.
(25:28):
And then between July 6th and seventh,there were 300 reports.
So it's just going, going,going up, going up.
Also, at this time,
a little event called
Roswell happened just two weeks after it.
And again,I'm not going to go into Roswell today.
(25:48):
There's there's not enough timein the world for you
tonightto go into Roswell witness as well.
But that's the big storythat everybody knows and thinks about
when they think of UFOs back then.
But that's, you know, the supposedcrash landing. Yeah.
Do you have. Questions for the questions?
So here is my takeaway was
we we got our boy here who is
(26:13):
he? He has the sighting.
And he's credible.
He's credible to everyone as an eyewitnessbecause, yes, he's a pilot.
He knows this guy really well.
It was a really clear day.
He's a trustworthy person.
I think part of what makes his story
so convincing is because
(26:33):
he seems very considered and thoughtfulabout how he,
even in the moment,is trying to debunk this.
The whole thing is, what, 2 minutes?
The whole thing is like 2 minutes
that he's he's measuring in his headthe distance between two mountains.
He's familiar with the area.
I had known that there was
he was there looking for a planethat had gone down.
(26:54):
And I didn't know the story of the planethat had gone down.
So part of me was like,well, is that part of it?
Yeah, the first plane down.
So that he knew this area.
But, you know, he's therelooking for a plane crashes.
They're looking forwhere a large group of people died.
So his his symptoms are heightened.
He's he's on the lookout for something.
(27:17):
And my thought was thatbecause he was so credible,
that's kind of why the story got took offand had legs.
But am I wrong in my understanding that
the guy who had the Roswell crash stuff
on his property didn'the hear the story and be like, Well,
(27:38):
wait a minute, maybe that'swhat all that garbage in my yard is from.
Yeah.
So that that is, that'sone of my favorite parts
about the Roswell storyand Ufologists are going to hate me
because I haven't done enough researchto get really specific on it.
But I think the the story
(27:59):
that people that don't believe it's a UFOstick to is
he found like debrison his ranch on the property
and it was just plastic and some piecesof wood and stuff like that.
And he kind of brushedit underneath some bushes or something
and he didn't have not TV, of course,but he didn't have a radio.
He wasn't getting newspaperbecause he's out out in the boonies
(28:22):
and he didn't knowall these stories coming out.
And then when he went to town one day,
he started seeing themor reading about him or hearing about it
and was like, Oh,I found this stuff out here. Maybe.
Maybe that has something to do with it.
Yeah. Yeah, but it's I.
I personally don't believeRoswell was a UFO crash.
I, I'm.
(28:42):
I'm a sucker. For what?
The gut for the what the government says.
So I'm part of the problemfor the people that do believe it.
But like it was, again, Cold War 1947.
This is like the ramp upand the declassified information
that came out in the nineties aboutRoswell was that it was a balloon
that had sensors on it,
trying to see if we could senseif Russia was testing nukes.
(29:06):
So of course, they're not going to wantpeople to know, but that's what it is.
So I believe that again, UFO people,please tell me I'm wrong, right?
In a study of strange edema dotcom let me know
and maybe we'll do a Roswell episodeone day.
But just from the surfacethat makes sense.
Also the fact that it happened
two weeks after Kennethunder like you were saying,
like the guy read about this and was like,wait a second.
(29:26):
Nope, I'm making sense with that.
No, I didn't mean it. Yeah.
And I mean, I'm I consider myselflike a UFO person a little bit.
Sure. I don't want anyone to come for me.
I met
with Roswell.
It's like my big thingis what you said is like,
I'm so ready to be wrong about this.
That all the the debris that seemed to becollected was like, I feel like I've read
(29:50):
like tinfoil and rubble and I'm just like,that's not a spacecraft.
That's like a fifth graders STEM project.
Like, it's just or, you know, you know,like, I'm just not convinced that
that was I just maybeif you had found some metal that was like,
yeah, or something like,I need more to believe it again.
(30:11):
I'd love to believe it.I'd love for that to be.
But it's so much.
Yeah, I just, I feel like there's betterstories out there.
That are stories out there.
And like, if you are a believer in aliensvisiting the planet, I think there's
there's just better stories than that.
I really
don't think that that is a massive, weirdcover up like a lot of people believe.
That's just me.
That's just me. Happy to be Kenneth Story.
(30:34):
I feel like, listen,there's in terms when you're talking about
when this took place, you'renot going to have cell phone footage.
The odds of you even having a photograph,
all a reliable person giving an account.
And I amI wrong that I feel like other people
(30:55):
claimed they saw the same thingat the same time thing, right?
Yeah.
There's a
there's two that I know of and I apologizebecause I don't have their exact
information in front of me.
But there was a prospector
working on the mountainsthat said he saw the same thing.
There was also somebody in the firewatch on the mountains.
That sort of thing.
I think there was also an actuallythey think there's a third
(31:16):
I think there was a womannearby that also said she saw
things that could have been the same.
But those all came out later.
Like I you know, somesometimes you're like,
is someone just saying itbecause they want to say it?
They want to be part of the story.
Yeah.
So, so it was corroborated.
And also where we're humans, I'mgoing to believe
somebody that comes off as likeI thought they were jet planes at first.
(31:39):
I'm going to believe
that person more than justI want to be like found UFO in my yard.
There's something to be saidabout the way that we judge
people, rightly or wrongly,with how they approached these things.
Yeah, no, it's so interesting.
And the military,they were encouraged enough
or influenced enough by all these reportsto start investigating it.
That's what's so interestingabout the Arnold thing
(32:01):
is this actually does makeeverybody want to look into it.
Again, Cold War kind of feeds into thisbecause we're worried
that the Russians are making weaponsor flying new things over our country.
So there was a big
effort by the governmentto try to figure this stuff out.
Aliens or not,they want to know. Yeah, and.
(32:23):
Read it exactly what is it?
So everybody'sheard of some of these organizations
or groups or studies,whatever you call it.
But there was ProjectSign was started after this.
Then it became Project Grudgeand then Project Blue Book,
which a lot of people have heard aboutbecause they're in so many movies
and documentaries and stuff.
But they did they did look at it.
And including two weeksafter Arnold saw this,
(32:43):
he actually had a right of reportto military intelligence.
And that's where he drewsome of the sketches and stuff that you've
probably seen,
because he wanted to share thosewith the military
and they actually saidthey kind of wrote it off.
They thought it was a mirageor a misidentification,
but they did say he was credible,like in their report.
It's like this guy's a credible guy. He'snot making it up.
He should be a writer.
(33:04):
That's what they were saying.
He should write for Buck Rogers. Yeah,
but they they said he was very credible.
If you see as your reports, I feel likeif you read the interview transcripts,
you're like, this sounds like a personwho is measured, who is considering
different possible explanations,who feels very detailed in what they saw.
I mean, it's been proven that when you arein an experience where you're afraid
(33:29):
or you're trying to evaluate, timealmost like slows down for you.
And that seems to match of kind of
what happened to himbecause he's able to gather so much data
and pick up so much detail in that shorttwo minute window.
Yeah.
And he experiencesit deeply enough that he can go
back and say, well, let me figure outthe distance between these mountains.
(33:50):
I can.
I timed how fast it went between.
You know that takes a lot of quickthinking in in the moment.
Yeah yeah.
It's it's it's really hard to hearsomebody that measured
and and really doubt them whatever he saw.
He I feel like he absolutely saw exactlywhat he described.
Yeah.
And that's that's one of those things
(34:10):
that just made me love this so muchbecause I do believe him.
And even just it had to be so intriguing
to make him want to look at it morebecause he's seen so many things up there.
You do see weird things in the sky.
There are natural occurrences.
And the fact that he was like,wait a second, let me make note of this.
Let me see how fast they're going.
(34:31):
It had to be very intriguing for him.
And Arnold ended up also saying,
you know, a lot of people thinkpeople do this for attention.
But remember, at the time,
UFO stories were not somethingthat people did to try to get attention
or make money. He never wrote.
He didn't try to write a book the yearafter this or sell
a radio special or something that
(34:51):
and he actually claimed
it hurt his businesslike he would go on meetings
and then people wouldn'twant to work with them
because they were like,this is the weirdo that saw Martians.
Yeah, yeah.
So it did kind of hurt his thing.
And he shied away from the UFO
crowd for yearsafter the initial flurry of activity.
And he didn't attendhis first UFO convention for 30 years.
So he had a yeah,he was not like ingrained in the community
(35:16):
and he did claim to have seen some otherstrange objects later on in his life.
I don't know exactly whenbecause the details were a little fuzzy,
but I think at least two times
he saw some other unidentified things,whatever they may be, and.
I didn't know that.
So he did go and just see more.
Do you know if it was whilehe was flying or.
I think it was while he was flying.
(35:36):
But I actually had a really tough timefinding details about that.
You just hear it mentioned a few timeslike, Oh, you saw something
a few other times.
It was like, that is the basis.
So I'm sure again, there's ufologistspeople that are spend their lives
looking into this that may know.
So right in
let me know a study of strange edemathat I'd love to actually hear about.
(35:56):
There are other sightingshe had and he passed away in 1984.
So he lived and lived a nice life.
That's I mean, it's such a short versionof a very kind
of, again,very historically impactful experience.
But that is thethat is the Kenneth Arnold story.
What do you think?
(36:16):
So had
he one never had that sighting or twojust decided on taking this to the grave?
Nobody's going to believe me.
You kind of have to wonderif flying saucer has was
taken out of the vocabulary, if that image
was never put in people's place to beginwith, how does that then impact
(36:37):
one just UFO culture in the narrativearound it
and to media films?
Yeah, so I because
a lot of people that might have been
the first time in pop culturethey were hearing these things.
I mean, War of the Worldsand stuff, of course.
But this is really engaging in itand bringing it.
Okay, this isn't just a storythat we're listening to for entertainment
(36:59):
that seems to be happeningin the real world.
And you know what's
how did he shape thingswithout even realizing it?
Yeah, it's I think he shaped things,like I said, up top
it more than he I think morethan he ever probably realized.
And I think more than most people realizebecause again, to me, that is
what is the most important part of thisstory, is seeing how we were impacted,
(37:22):
whether UFOs are, real or not,or aliens visited us or not.
The social kind of phenomena of this
is what fascinates me the most,and which I think is very strange.
And a lot of people have actually studiedthe craze of 1947, which started
with Arnold story as like the birthof the modern myth and religious studies.
(37:43):
People have like studied it and folklorist
because humans were highly suggestibleand suddenly
there's this craze and there's allevery newspaper is reporting.
Flying saucers.
Flying saucers, mantle. Flying saucers.
This person saw a flyingsaucer, doesn't it?
It makes other peoplewant to see flying saucers.
(38:03):
So as soon as they seesomething they don't recognize in the sky,
they're going to see their mind is goingto create the image of a flying saucer.
And that's what I find fascinating,because the misquote led to
this very specific thing.
And all these people
I'm not saying peopledidn't see unidentified things in the sky,
but I do think they're misidentifying
(38:24):
something or their imaginationskind of filling in holes
and making it really hardto actually find out if they are aliens.
Flying Sky. In 1947.
But yeah, it's so I don't have an exactanswer for a lot of those questions.
But I do know that this is aan amazing example of how us as
humans can can be
(38:46):
basically our imaginations can be affectedby everything around us.
And I'm a big believer in how pop culture
becomes like fact and becomes history.
So this is an example of that,of like this one thing happened in
even though it was misquoted,it turned into fact over time
because now we imagine aliens and flyingsaucers so.
(39:08):
Yeah. Yeah yeah.
So seriesI would love to hear some of the theories
you came across.
But for Arnold sighting.
For Arnold Saturday sighting.
Sorry, I,I switched gears there really quickly. I
know there's there's a
there's a lot no oneI mean, a lot of people
(39:29):
just think he misidentified,but that's a very general thing.
But if he didn't see aliens,people have suggested like reflections,
water on the window which we can debunkbecause we actually
would. They debunked how.
He opened up his windowwhen he flew by again.
It was a little thing.
Yeah, he he took itstraight through. Okay.
So he didn't thatI thought I saw one theory of like
(39:53):
I want to say, like pelicans or somebig bird that could have been reflective
because they were wet or something,which sounds a little insane to me.
Yeah.
Somebody had a report after Arnold'ssighting, and I can't remember who it was
that talked about this.
It's like a weather
event or phenomena,but it makes the tops of the mountains
(40:16):
look like they're almost floating.
And he could have seen thatbecause they're reflective on the snow
and whatever.
But he said they're moving and he was ableto track them moving between the two.
Well, it just doesn't make sensebecause they're not moving.
Yeah. And even. Oh, this is interesting.
So Jay Allen Hynek, who's famous for he'san astronomer
(40:37):
that worked on the project Blue Bookand investigated UFOs for the Air Force.
He actually had a calculationafter the Arnold event as he studied it,
that said they were only moving400 miles an hour
because is I guess he assumedbecause of the visuals that Arnold
was able to see the objectsactually had to be closer to him.
(41:00):
And because it's the wayour eyes can actually
distinguish certain details at a distance.
So if they were at the distancethat Arnold says Hynek doesn't believe
that he could have seenthose details. Interesting.
So he estimates them to be closer.
And that changes the rate of speed.
He calculates 400, which is possible,especially because they were testing
(41:20):
jets, flying them around,including in Washington.
So he actually thinks they could be jetsor rockets.
I think later on in his life,Hynek changed his mind and was like,
Oh, no, there'smaybe I was wrong about that.
But it is it is an interesting theory.
That's a really interesting theory. Yeah.
Because he he could have miscalculatedlike you can, especially at that distance.
(41:41):
Like I misjudged distances in my driveway.
I can imagine flying.
I know he's a pilot,
so he has experience, but still, you know,your eyes can deceive you.
Some people have suggestedjets, jet planes as well,
because their exhaust can make can createsort of like bright shapes
that could look like these these imageshe saw.
(42:02):
Yeah. So those arethose are kind of the basic ones.
Some people say, like balloons, butthey're not really looking at the case.
There's gosh, just the balloon.
And it's like, well.
It's none of this feels like,
okay, I guess some of theseif that was truly what it was.
Okay, weird.
But we got a smart guywho flies all the time who
who is smart
(42:22):
enough to say maybe this is a reflectionor something in the plexiglass.
Let me look atlet me open this window and take a look.
He's consideringa lot of different things.
I don't know. None of it to me is likethat's the answer.
It was just pelican. Yes.Or or like, yeah.
And that's where this this case to mekind of takes or keeps
it doesn't take a strange turn,but it keeps being strange
(42:44):
after all this time is that I don't thinkthere is one good theory
that points to it being a mistake for,being a manmade thing.
And again, I'm a skeptic.
Like I'm not somebody that just jumps toUFOs being there all the time, but like,
I just have yet to come across somethingthat's like, Oh, yeah,
yeah, it had to be jet planes.
Like, I was.
(43:04):
Like, Yeah, maybe it could be,but I can't, I can't just
jump on board with that 100% be like,Oh yeah, it's totally jet planes.
Then it's like, no, there's,there was enough strangeness to it.
And he even talked about the formation.
Was it right in the waythey kind of flipped and bobbed?
I don't think jetplanes would have been doing so.
I do think the the question still remains,what did he see?
(43:26):
And that's me.
That's the only question, because I feellike whatever he saw, he described it.
You described it.
I believe he saw what he says he saw.
And the question is,okay, but then what was it?
Yeah, but what was it?
Carrie,you're the guest. You have the answer.
I have the answer.
I should have more than just like.
(43:47):
Well, it's not birds.
It's not.
Birds.
It's I will say this
just because to get most of the details
he did kind of change his descriptionlater in life.
And so in the initial drawings he had
for military intelligence, it is likehalf a plate with the point that the
(44:10):
I can't do with my fingers for you,but a point at the end.
And then later on itbecame that boomerang thing where people
if there's a famous photo of him
holding that like silver boomerangish object high point in the middle.
So it became like more of this pie shaped
that then turned into a boomeranglater on in his life.
I don't
I don't
sort of turn against him because of that,
(44:33):
because I do think our memories dochange over time.
I agree.
And it's not big enough to it'snot like a drastic enough change or like,
oh, he's making it up.
Also, he said in some interviews,you don't hear this very often.
And this is kind of like one of the thingsthat gets dropped sometimes.
He actually saidthey weren't all the same shape. Oh.
(44:53):
But like most of the timeyou don't hear that.
But he claims that they were all slightlydifferent shapes and sizes.
I mean, that's really weird.Isn't that weird?
So he could have seen when she was alive.
So for us to ask him, buthe could have seen both that like pie, pie
plate cut in halfwith a point and a boomerang, you know. So
that's really interesting.
(45:13):
And I'd never heard that.
And I also don't feel likeyou get a lot of UFO stories
where if there's multiple objectsthat they're different shapes.
Yeah, you're right.
Right. I did.
I didn't think about that. Yeah.
So that's right.
So Yeah. Saying that is it.
I didn't know thatand I didn't know that there was
(45:35):
ever a discrepancy
really of how he was describing the shape.
So but yeah, anytime somebodyeven if it's like the smallest
inconsistency, it does start
to crumble the story a little bit.
But I still feel like it's very credible.
I still feel likehe saw exactly what he said.
He saw. That.
Yeah, I agree.
(45:56):
I agree.
And again, just the this story
I'm I mean, we can't figure it out,but this story,
again,has this historical significance to it
where I actually think it helped,even if not directly, but indirectly,
I think it helpedinspire minds at the time.
(46:17):
Like we're getting into the space age,
I think thinking about aliens and UFOsand flying saucers.
It's inspiring people
to get into physics and scienceand astronomy and also fiction.
Like, I think this helped inspireall the movies.
I mean, itobviously inspired all the movies,
but eventually, like TV showslike Star Trek and all this kind of stuff,
(46:38):
and we still use the term flyingsaucer today.
So like itit really historic connects to us
in a much more significant way
than Roswell than some of the other,like famous UFO stories.
I think it connects to so much of
what our lives areand sort of the culture and society
(46:58):
we live in, thinking about fictionand alien technology and everything else.
So that's reallywhat drew my attention to this as a story,
just to kind of Matos and the UFOs.
But I just yeah,I'm really fascinated by that.
And I do I have a quote herethat I actually thought
was really interesting, too.
This is from an article in Wired,and the writer says, maybe during
(47:18):
eitherkind of crest, more people really do truly
excuse me, really do seetruly strange things as could be the case
if spaceships or airforces are actually descending,
or maybe the upsurge happens
because of what social scientists callperceptual contagion, a catching disease
whose sole symptom is thatyou suddenly notice things
(47:40):
that have always existedand interpret them differently.
So that's in relation to the craze
that happened where everybody issuddenly seeing flying saucers.
So there is a socialcan tejan that can happen
and a lot of people have even connected itto like the dancing disease.
Have you ever read about thator heard about that?
So there is it's in the Middle Ages.
(48:01):
Some time I've listen to a podcast on it,but there's like a couple of towns
that this has happened to historicallywhere suddenly
someone starts dancingand then someone else start dancing,
and then suddenlythe whole town is dancing.
They don't know why and they can't stopand people will die.
They'll fall overafter days of dancing. And.
And it's this weird.
It's almost like a virus kind of thing.
We're just like we feed off each other,and that's that social contagion thing.
(48:25):
We're like, Yeah,it is a social phenomena.
How we howwe can be affected by each other
and what everybody else saysor sees or talks about.
This area you also brought up earlier
in the episode of the factthat there was so much going on
that was causing peopleto look at the sky in a new way.
(48:45):
Yeah, I guess, you know, before it's like,what was the sky?
It was stars, it was whatever and that.
And now it's a threatand when you're looking at the sky
looking for threats, maybe certain
thingsstand out to you in a different way.
Yeah, yeah.
You see things slightly differentlybecause you're thinking about it
or it's also related to like,
(49:10):
my son can what a Honda is because he saw,
I guess he learned thelike H logo from somebody.
And so now hehe points out Honda is on the road.
And I keep saying to myself,I thought I never saw Honda's or rarely
saw Honda's in my neighborhoodand now I see them every other car.
(49:30):
And so it's thingif you put it in the mind
and then suddenly now you're seeing.Oh, really?
Oh, yeah.
So do you have any other theoriesor comments or questions about Kenneth
Arnold?
I do have one more thing to dobefore we wrap up, but I just wanted to
see if you had anythingyou wanted to bring up.
I guess I don'tI guess my my final takeaway of this story
is what I repeated multiple timesis that I do believe what he is saying.
(49:57):
I don't think he's making it up at all.
There is enough
credibility
there that I want to give himthe benefit of the doubt.
And I feel like he lived a whole life.
I mean, how old was he when he died?
Oh, I haven't done the math. In 84.
He was 32 and 47 and he died.
So there you go.
So, I mean, this whole full life,he had plenty of chances
(50:21):
to flush his credibility down the toiletand he didn't.
And so, yeah, I think that's
the reason why the story is enduringbecause yeah,
it was really probably pretty true.
Absolutely.
And it also doesn't
it really doesn't make us
or allow us to debunk potential
(50:43):
alien visitations, which is a it's fun,fun to think about it.
You know, it's good for our imagination,but also interesting and strange
like it is. Yeah.
So before we
we finishup, we have one more scene that I wrote.
So this is the Arnold too thing.
So this is a, a kind of a recreation
(51:04):
of an interview excuse me, of an interviewbetween Edward Murrow,
the famous newsman and reporter,and Kenneth Arnold.
They had an interview over the phone
years later.
I don't know how many years laterI should have written that down,
but it is I don't know.
It just it's interesting.
It puts a nice little,little period on the story.
(51:26):
So do you want to just keep being Arnold?
I would love to keep being Arnold.
Okay.
I'm not going to do an impressionof Edward Murrow.
I can't really do that.
All right.
Here we go.
Flying saucers was a historic misquote.
Well, Mr. Arnold'soriginal explanation has been forgotten.
The term flyingsaucer has become a household word.
(51:48):
Arnold says that
some pilots in the Northwest have reportedseeing them on eight separate occasions.
We asked for his personal opinion.
I don't know how to best explain that.
I more or less have reserved an opinionas to what I think.
Naturally,being a natural or natural born American.
Some that later,
(52:09):
if it's not made by our scienceor our army
air forces, I am inclined to believe it is
of an extraterrestrial origin.
Extraterrestrial origin?
You mean you think there's a possibilitythey may be coming out of space
from another planet?
I suppose that's hard for peopleto take seriously.
(52:30):
Well, I'll tell you this much.
All the airplane pilots, none of us haveappreciated, appreciated being laughed at.
We made our reportsbecause we thought that
if our government didn't know what it was,it was only our duty
to report it to our nationand to our Air Force.
I think it's something that is of concernto every person in this country,
(52:51):
and I don't think it's anything for peopleto get hysterical about.
That's just my frank opinion on it.
So that is how it all began.
That was the trigger action.
Kenneth Arnold's storywent scurrying over the news, wires, radio
and newspapers, picked it up,and then within days the country broke out
into a flood of flying saucer observation.
(53:17):
Ba ba ba ba ba.
Yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, we can, we can wrap it up there.
That is
considering I have COVID right now,I think I didn't do too
terrible of a jobtrying to remember things.
I think you did a really good jobof asking why
and it's such a tip of the iceberg.
I think this is a great
(53:38):
this is a great wayfor you to get your toes into this world.
Yeah, I need to do it more. I am. Sure.
I'm fascinated. I'm not going to lie.
I am so intimidated to do UFO storiesbecause people
are hardcore into itand I'm like an armchair fan.
Like,I know weird other strange things so much
better than I knowUFO and Alien and UAP stories.
(54:01):
That's going to make yoube a great person to explore
because you're looking at it in the eyes.
You're like, Yeah, allies on this stuff.
We need new theories.
Oh, well.
Thank. You.
So I think I think this is it.
This is a great start. I think.
Do you have any suggestions on on oneor any any that I should look at?
I mean, are you into
(54:23):
anything that Tom from Blink 182
is is on because he's he's into so he's.
I only know that just
that he's like got some stuffI don't actually know the details so.
Maybe I should look at the videos.
Yeah, it's going to blow your socks off.
Let me tell you.
Now, you
(54:44):
I know that you've done some some writingand stuff, like articles and things.
Did you ever write anything remotelyclose to, like, a UFO
or some sort of sighting type of articleor story or.
Anything I've never been paid to?
Okay, that stuff exists,but I've never been paid.
People tend to pay me forfor fashion advice and yeah,
(55:05):
what to buy and stuff like that. But
I, I haveyeah, this is one of my favorite topics.
I just, I don't know,I don't know where I could go
to actually write this stuff for fun.
Yeah. No.
Hey, I'll let you know if I come across.
I mean, I got samples.
(55:26):
Yeah, there was no the storyyou told me or you brought up
when I was with you a few months ago.
I think there was a videothat had recently been passed
around with people in it.
Was it the one in Santa monica?
Do you even remember what the video wasthat you talked about?
I think it was.
I want to say Santa monica.That sounds right.
I can find a video and send it to you.
(55:47):
But yeah, that was going around.
If It's the one thing.
No, it wasn't debunked was it.
Oh if it's the one I think it is I, I,
I debunked it as well as I thinkmany other people.
It is if it's the same onebecause it may not be.
So we'll have to look.But I think it's the Santa monica Pier.
There's a group of people up in the skyand there's this like triangle.
I think it's like three different lights,but they form like a triangle together,
(56:10):
I think.
And, and it's like flies down above.
And I looked at itand when I first saw it, it was just like
a quick social media setting.I was like, Oh, that's cool.
And then didn't think anything of ituntil I went back to look at it again.
And the first thing I noticed was
everybody's got their phones upfilming it.
So I'm like, Well, this is interesting
(56:31):
because I don't see any of their footagealso on YouTube and stuff.
Was it that one?
And then you notice people filmingall of their screens
have the same angle as likethey all have the same angle.
Of the object.But then when they're like, you know.
Where they're likebringing it down to the ground,
you can still see the screenand it's not moving.
So it's obviously just a visual effect.
(56:52):
And nowadays people be carefulif you are trying to.
Find.
UFO videos nowadays.
Yes, everybody has a phone
which should make it easierto like see an alien in the sky.
But there's so many even like simple plugins, like visual effect plug ins
that like a six year old onthe computer can put everything in
and make it look like an aliensflying above.
(57:13):
Yeah, so,so just be careful of, of stuff out there.
Look for the little detailslike the screens and that video.
But yeah, it's the same video.I don't think it's a big one.
I would like to give myself some creditthat I would have.
Yeah, it did.
It did take me a few timesso I didn't see it right away.
But but yeah.
No, I would love to see, see more.I love them.
Well, thank you.
(57:33):
Do you want to tell peoplewhere they can find you?
Do you have likedo you want people to find you on social?
You know, I mean, I'm out thereif if we cross each other's path
and that's great.
Well, we're good.
I'm really I'm really hopingthat you do more of this
and we can exchange infobecause this is really fun.
(57:54):
Oh, I would love to. Yeah.
I mean, from now on,you're my UFO specialist and will love it.
Yeah, that would be amazing.
So cool. Well, thank you.
This was a lovely excuse
to get to hang out with youand not your husband, so that was good.
Okay.
Well, yes.
Thank you, Carrie,
so much for being on and listeningto the story of Kenneth Arnold.
(58:16):
And that's our show.
Thank you so much for listening.
In my delirium of Being Sick,
I forgot to give any sort of callto actions at the top of the show.
So if you're enjoying this series, pleasesubscribe rate and leave a review.
If you want your review read,send me an email.
A study of strange at gmail.comon the subject of emails and UFOs.
(58:36):
If you've seen an unidentifiedflying object or an identified, submerged,
submerged object or anything of thatnature, please send me your stories.
I do want to compile
and do an episode in the futurewith the people's personal accounts.
A Study of strange at gmail.com.
You can also follow us on Instagram.
At a study of strange,you can send us a message there
(58:58):
if you like, and also a great wayto support the show here.
In the early days,
in the infancy of a study of Strangeis to check out our Patreon account.
You can find that through our website.
His study of strange scum.
You'll see a little tab for that.
We have a lot of additional content.
We're going to have a new episode
of News of Strangeness next week,which I really enjoy doing.
(59:20):
So I love putting this outfor our Patreon supporters.
And finally, on our next episode,if COVID doesn't slow me down too
much is a mystery that's haunted a familythrough multiple generations.
Now it's the case of the solder children.
I've been readingabout this case for probably
15 years or so, and I'm excited to say
(59:42):
that I've learned some new things overthe last few weeks researching this.
So I'm looking forwardto sharing those details until next time.
Thank you and goodnight.
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