From Darkness to Light: Aaron's Journey of Redemption and Advocacy

Welcome to another episode of the Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show with your host, Ciara Cobb. In this episode, we delve into the life of Aaron Edward Olston, a multimedia journalist and host of the Abolition Christian podcast, who has been incarcerated since the age of 19 and is serving a life sentence in Washington state.

Aaron shares his profound journey from a troubled childhood filled with gang violence and addiction to finding redemption and purpose through faith. We also hear from his wife, Tracy, about the challenges and strength it takes to maintain their marriage under such circumstances.

Through powerful storytelling, Aaron and Tracy discuss the impact of faith, the need for criminal justice reform, and the importance of restorative justice. This episode is a testament to resilience, love, and the transformative power of hope.

Join us as we explore the complexities of life behind bars and the fight for a more just and compassionate system.

 

Black Light Mass Incarceration Show Youtube Channel

 

 

Twitter/X: TheAbolitionChristian@AaronOlson1986 Facebook/LinkedIn: Aaron Edward Olson Podcast: Patreon.com/TheAbolitionChristian or AaronEdwardOlson.com Business Email: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Music.

(00:12):
Welcome to Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show. I am your host, Ciara Cobb.
Blacklight Mass Incarceration Show is a space that is used to uplift the unheard
voices of the criminal and social justice issues that many face today.
Thank you for tuning in. I hope you enjoy.
Music.

(00:55):
Hey black light we are back for another episode today we have a guest who is
incarcerated out of washington state i'm gonna give you a little bit of background
about him his name is aaron Aaron Edward Olston.
He is a multimedia journalist and host of the Abolition Christian podcast,

(01:15):
which I think you can find that on any major streaming platform.
And also he's on Twitter as well.
Incarcerated since the age of 19, Aaron is serving a life sentence in Washington state.
So today you will hear from Aaron himself and also his wife,
just a little bit about, you know, what it's like to be married to somebody
incarcerated, especially with somebody with the Life Senate,

(01:36):
and we will be speaking to them.
All right, Aaron, I've kind of already done an introduction of what you sent me.
So if you just want to, you know, I guess start off. So we'll start off with
you, and then we'll talk to Tracy.
But if you want to kind of start off about, you know, your story,
just a little bit of background about, you know, your growing up and then incarceration.

(01:57):
Yeah, sure. My name is Aaron Edward Olson. I'm 37 years old.
Many people People know me today as a multimedia journalist and host of the
Abolition Christian podcast.
I've been incarcerated since I was 19, and I'm currently serving a life sentence in Washington State.
A little bit about my childhood. I grew up in Washington.

(02:17):
A lot of people, you know, when you hear about Tacoma or Washington State,
you know, first, if you don't say Tacoma, they think you're talking about D.C.
Then when you tell them where it's at, they're like, oh, is that Canada?
No, it's the U.S. And when I grew up, it's an interesting story.
It's still an inner city, like, you know, a lot of the same things a lot of our cities are.

(02:38):
I grew up in the 80s and 90s between the hilltop, which is at that time was a modern gangland.
And then Salishan was right next to it.
And that was basically a government designated refugee settlement,
which turned into a slum. I was raised by my mom.
She was a single parent of four, and she struggled with a mental illness.

(03:02):
I lost her while I was incarcerated in 2013 to suicide.
It was a self-inflicted gunshot.
It's a reflection of our childhood. You know, it's strange, you know,
gang violence kind of manifests in different ways.
And with that gun violence. Right.

(03:24):
And so, you know, in inner cities, you know, guns are prevalent.
And so you find yourself in positions where or your life is at risk or people
take into their lives or people succumb to the pressures and mental struggles
and take their own life with a gun.
So that manifested in her life in 2013, which was a huge shock.

(03:45):
And then, you know, she was working when we were growing up.
You know, she was doing the best she could. Me and my brothers,
we were really raised by the streets.
I was a drug addict from the age of 12, and then I got put on as a gang member at age 13.
I experienced my first homelessness when I was 15, and that was after I was

(04:05):
expelled for the final time from school. That was kind of like,
my dad tried to start coming back into my life a little bit,
and I wasn't really interested.
And really, I didn't really have a spot to stay, because the requirement was
go to school. And I didn't really feel, you know, at home or welcome at school.
You know, I was always getting expelled for either drugs or fighting,
or it just didn't seem like a, it just didn't seem like it was something that

(04:30):
was worth my time, you know, which I regret now, of course. Right. So.
But when you're. It was kind of a snapshot.
When you're young, you don't, you know, you don't think about stuff like that.
And so it sounds like kind of, that's what molded you was just the childhood.
And, you know, we kind of, when we grow up, we go off of what we see and the examples that we see.

(04:51):
So when you don't have good examples, then it's hard to really be an example,
a good example, when you don't have good examples around you,
because we mimic what we see, especially growing up as children.
You know, we tend to take in what we see if we see good things then you know
a lot of times we spew good things but when we see bad things and that kind
of molds us to do things that you know we probably wouldn't have done if it

(05:14):
would have been something different.
Yeah, yeah, I agree 100%. Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, so it's interesting, you know, when you mentioned, you know,
the things that we see, right?
And, you know, when I was in middle school, it was like the last kind of the
good years, and that was really where, you know, life was, there was a fork in the road.

(05:36):
And it was a kind of a conflict of two things. There were some good things, right?
There were a few good teachers, there were a few good friends. and then
you had this conflict kind of moving into the
schools now so i'm the street life and then by the time you're
in high school it's a wrap right but i remember
in middle school i had this homegirl her name was tempest and we got prettiest

(05:58):
eyes together i got two different colored eyes and she had just these beautiful
hazel eyes and this tall light-skinned girl and the very next year after we
got prettiest eyes i had found out that she was forced onto into the track.
You know, what a lot of people, they don't know what that is.
You know, it's basically being forced into sex work or prostitution.

(06:18):
And, and the next time I ran into her was in this drug rehab,
this outpatient that I had ended up dropping out of it. That was one of the
requirements of going back to school.
And then I was like, what happened to you? You know, she looked sickly, right?
She told me that she got, you know, she was forced into prostitution.
She had got hooked on drugs and then she contracted HIV.
And, and it was just like, like, it's crazy. You start realized, wow, this is my life.

(06:43):
Like, nobody's making it out of this, right? Like, you know,
nobody's becoming a doctor.
Nobody's, like, sailing off into the sunset. There's no positive stories.
And then losing, you know, that very same year, losing my first homeboy,
Marcus, to gang violence.
He just stabbed, he died just a block away from my house.
And yeah, you start realizing, So like, man, this is.

(07:06):
This is my life. You know, my life is about, you know, it's about survival.
And then you start looking to older men, right? And you think, oh, is this a man?
You know, in this older generation, that's pimps, dealers, you know.
These are people that we call on the streets, your big homies.
And it's drugs, it's money that holds the highest value.

(07:28):
And you learn pretty quickly kind of the order of operations. And, sadly,
women meant very little other than sexual gratification, or they were like decoys,
you know, when you went to go hit licks, or they were pawns to lure opposing
gangs into compromising positions.
And it's what I would come to find out later was really a rape culture that I had grown up into.

(07:50):
You know, there's block parties, and those block parties turn into house parties.
And in those house parties, there's back rooms where crazy things go down,
right? Right. And this is normalized.
You know, this is normalized. So, yeah, my childhood is one of trauma,
but it's common for many inner city youths.
Growing up homeless, you know, and surviving the thing that we had to,

(08:10):
tense against our life, you know, it's common to be jumped, kicked, stomped, stabbed,
you know, mauled by dogs, homeless, poverty, and then you're experiencing,
before your brain really develops, suicide and overdose at a high level.
Then it just becomes, you know, a cycle of trying to
survive yeah it's like your your environment is molding
you not not necessarily you know the things in

(08:32):
the environment is starting to mold you and i think that that's what's
kind of lost in the court system is understanding that it's an environmental
thing that these people don't a lot of people don't just wake up and say hey
let me go commit a crime it's the things that they've been molded into in their
environment and so you know that's why yes you're conditioned to And so that's

(08:52):
why it's important to ensure that,
you know, we have thriving communities.
And I think that they always tend to overlook that, you know,
that putting resources into communities is really important,
but that's not something they want to understand and see.
So, yeah, I know that you run the Abolition Christian podcast.
So I kind of want to talk about that.
Tell me, how has your faith in God helped you navigate life while incarcerated?

(09:16):
Yeah, I'm glad you asked. So it's been everything, right? So growing up,
so I grew up Roman Catholic, right?
And no disrespect to Roman Catholics, but for me, it was just like religion.
And you went a few times, you know, you touched yourself with the holy water.
My grandfather later in life, he became a priest. That's a whole different story.

(09:37):
But it was really a foundation, if anything.
And then I think I was, it was right around the time where things started getting unraveled in my life.
As a teenager, my dad had given his life to Christ.
And that's when he was trying to like kind of pushing my life a little bit like,
hey, I want to be present. I'm like, nah.
But then there was one time where he was like, hey, come to church with me.

(09:58):
And I said, no, I'm all right. He was like, well, they're going to have dinner,
and I think there's going to be some girls your age, right? I was like, all right, I'm there.
I'm there. And there was this South African evangelist. He was preaching that night.
And, you know, there was nothing special about his story. But I had prayed in
the backseat, and I didn't know God. I never experienced God.

(10:20):
I never experienced the Holy Spirit. I didn't know anything really about that.
It was just a tie in the sky, right? or just kind of religion,
don't go into the motions.
So I'm in the backseat, and I just ask, and I just say, God,
okay, if you're real, like, show up.
And I remember sitting in the audience, and the South African evangelist got
to this part of his testimony where he said, I was traveling,

(10:43):
and I didn't take no money with me.
I just depended on whatever donations came my way.
And he said, I'm standing in line for my train ticket to go to the next destination,
nation, and I don't have any money, right?
And he said, I prayed, and God said, I can't lie.
And he said, this person up, there's one more person in front of him.
He said, I don't have any money to stay in line.

(11:03):
And the person turned around and handed those enough money for a strength,
I get him said, this is from God, God bless you, and got a push in.
And it was at that moment, I mean, the story's kind of corny,
right? But it's something in that moment, right, God met at me.
And I didn't give my life to him at that moment, but I never doubted his existence.

(11:25):
I said, okay, you're real, right?
You know, this whole surrender thing and giving my life to Christ,
I'm not there yet, but I know you're real.
That was the seed or the water, right?
And so my life just continued to unravel after that.
But deep down inside, there was this call, right? There was this call. I knew God existed.

(11:45):
And committing the crimes that I committed or running the streets, I was, like, terrified.
I was scared. There was this conviction there that I knew I was made for something better.
You know, God didn't call me to be a destroyer, to be someone that harms or prays upon the weak.
You know, God called me to be a protector. So I found very quickly,
right before my incarceration, that I really hated myself.

(12:09):
I hated who I had become, because it was the complete opposite of who God called me to be.
And that realization came post-incarceration. So me, like many,
had a jailhouse experience.
But unlike some, that jailhouse experience continued over the course of these
18 years of my incarceration.

(12:30):
It was shortly into my incarceration that God got a hold of me.
I'm sitting in this multi-purpose room. You know, there's people in there for all different reasons.
God got a hold of me. These preachers were up front, and they were talking about
getting rich in 06, and then maybe enjoying heaven in 07. I'm like,
what are they talking about?
You know, I found out, you know, these are some Pentecostal preachers, right?

(12:53):
So then they played this corny little boombox. They put this corduroy boombox
on, and I don't remember the words.
All I remember is just putting my face in my hands and giving up and saying,
God, take over, have your way.
And since then, it's just been a tremendous journey. Well, salvation happened,
and then for the next two years, that's four years, right, in the county jail, it was like hell.

(13:15):
I never saw a blade of grass, the sun, anything like that, right, just total isolation.
But two years into that four-year stay, I had been bombarding God, okay, so now what?
What have you created me to be? Who am I?
And it was actually through the laying on of hands and a word of prophecy at

(13:35):
a moment where I was asking God, right?
Who has he called me to be? And he had been like depositing in my spirit a shepherd.
I've called you to be a pastor.
And I'm like, is that you? Is that your voice?
Am I crazy? Is this just years in jail getting to me?
I always tell people, you know, Christians deal with the Holy Spirit, right?

(13:55):
Hey, they're either, it's really, it's either rhythm or they're crazy.
There's no in-between, right?
So God is speaking, right?
And then so this man and wife team, this husband and wife team came in,
and we're in contact with them still today.
John and Edie Bushnell, wonderful people.
And I get in line, she prophesies, right? He's praying for people.

(14:18):
She prophesies. I'm the next one in line, and I ask God, right,
if you've called me to be a shepherd, then speak to your servant and confirm that.
I'm the next one up. Do you need prayer? Yep, I need prayer.
And then she lays her hands on my shoulder. She says, take off your shoes, for this is holy ground.
I see a staff in their hand. God has called you to be a shepherd, a pastor.

(14:41):
Boom, right there. She had no idea what I was praying in my mind.
And at a moment where I was asking God to confirm, she confirmed.
And so 16 years after that, right, that brings us to 18 years later,
what God has done in me is He's moved in my life and built me into a shepherd, into a pastor.
And He's used me to, you know, I've participated in mental health programs here,

(15:07):
you know, especially after losing my mom, you know, to that situation.
So pilot programs, mentoring, finding service dogs, preaching at church,
hundreds that come to Christ, right?
And it's just been, it's been spectacular.
You know, present has been hell in many ways, and there's been these glimpses
of heaven, right, where God has just intervened in my life and then used me to help others.

(15:31):
And I mean, look around, it's just filled with people who need God.
So So it's not hard to be used by God in prison.
No. And I mean, we got to think about it. When you look at the Bible,
there were a lot in the Bible that were in prison.
I mean, Paul was one. Daniel was one.
You know what I'm saying? Jesus was one. So a lot of them did their work while they were in prison.

(15:52):
Like, look at Paul, who, you know, was able.
First, he was a sinner and wanted to kill all the Christians. And then God spoke.
Jesus spoke to him, you know, and then he brought him and then he was in prison.
And so he was sending his people.
He was talking to the Corinthian church from prison.
You know what I mean? So, you know, he uses people no matter where you are.

(16:14):
And sometimes it's in the depths and the pits of your worst that he uses you
to bring your best and to bring other people to him.
You know what I mean? So sometimes even though we look like prison is the worst
of the worst and why this happened to me, a lot of times he puts you in those
situations to bring you to him to do his work. You know what I mean?

(16:37):
Yeah so sierra and that's really what it
comes down to right so as we fight in this
abolition movement to change the system to
restructure it right into a more just
system and sentencing process it's wild how god in spite of an unjust system
will move in the lives of his children right i was just i was laying on my this

(17:00):
morning i was just praising god thanking him thank you for bringing me to present and saving my life,
even though I do not like the way this is set up.
It is not conducive for many people to transform all those, in spite of their
circumstances, who would look to you and cry out to you.
You will meet them, right? You'll meet them in the darkness,

(17:21):
and you'll transform us.
I mean, he's faithful to do that. It's never an excuse of an unjust system,
right? But that's kind of the conundrum.
We fight for a more just system, but God is able. God is able and following
it. Yeah, He's able and willing.
So tell us, can you share a particular scripture or practice that provides you

(17:42):
strength and hope during your difficult times?
Yeah, 100%. It's very, very, very popular scripture.
I'll end on this and and I'll call back Jeremiah 29, 11. It is the very first
scriptures he gave me in my walk.
For I know the box that I think towards you, says the Lord.

(18:03):
That's the good and not evil. Give you a future and a hope.
But then it goes on in those next few verses. And he says, when you call on me, right?
When you come to me and pray with me, when you come to me with all of your heart.
And that's God's requirement.
He just requires one thing, everything.
You come blow everything.

(18:25):
He will transform and change your life. And he'll take you with a life sentence.
He doesn't mess up your life, change your life, hurt people.
He'll take you, transform you, and then use you as a wrecking ball to Satan's kingdom.
He'll use you as a great force in the kingdom of God. And that's really my inspiration
all the way throughout this incarceration.
That's absolutely right. All right. We'll be waiting for you to call back. Thank you. We're back.

(18:50):
All righty. Did you want to finish off with the last question or are you ready for the next one?
Yeah, I can talk for hours. Go ahead and keep to the next one. All right.
You want me to keep talking? I can just talk. So what... So they call me to
be a pastor, but I have to do a lot of preaching too.

(19:10):
So what inspired you to pursue journalism, especially in the context of abolition
while serving a life sentence.
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, it took me 16 years to become an abolitionist.
And I was like, I was so set, like, okay, this is the system.

(19:32):
This is the way, you know, this is how it goes.
I'm the worst of the worst. Even understanding the redemption for me,
it's like the system is designed in such a way that it's really believable.
You have hundreds of people in uniforms with badges who are,
you know, they can tell you what to do.
They can throw you in the hole. And I've done over two years in solitary confinement

(19:57):
having never had an infraction.
So for anything, you know, boom, you're in the hole, right? Right. Privilege is gone.
And so you start realizing, wow, I was banished here?
You know, society banished me here? You know, a judge who was very respected
said, Mr. Olson, you're morally corrupt.
You're irretrievably broken. There's no hope for you.

(20:18):
The longer you're in prison, the safer society will be. And so I just kind of
looked, I thought, okay, you know, I didn't care about my country.
I didn't care about my community, you know, when I was a drug addict, a teenage drug addict.
But then, you know, early into my incarceration through sobriety and my brain
was still developing and then growing in Christ, I started desiring things that

(20:42):
I had never desired before.
I thought, wow, you know, it would be cool to have a family,
to have a wife, to have I have a piece of land, a house, a garden,
an animal, a ministry. These things would be all beautiful, right?
So I started asking God, like, you know, what do you have for me?
I know now what you've called me to do, my creative purpose,

(21:04):
but am I just supposed to be a pastor in prison? Am I a prison pastor?
Or do you have something more for me? And, you know, although the promises and
visions sometimes are vague,
or it's only kind of a snippet, I believe that he's promised me more than incarceration.

(21:26):
And so, okay, so now we have kind of a paradox here, right? So I'm sentenced to life.
God is saying other things. thing. So if the system sentenced me to life,
and if God is going to deliver me, like, what's up with this system, right?
And you start looking around, and you see guys who have been down 20,

(21:46):
30 years, and you're like, Nathan, like, you're an amazing human being.
Like, clearly, you weren't when you came to prison, but you're an amazing human
being now. Why are you still locked up?
Well, you know, I'm time barred. They won't let me out. I've exhausted all my remedies.
I'm basically going to die in prison.
You see these stories, and then you become the story, right? I'm the story now.

(22:08):
And it's all around you. And then you start seeing people also maybe who have
like a six-month or 12-month or 18-month sentence, and they're really not ready
for the streets, right? Right.
There's no process that determines whether they're ready or not.
Oh, your time's up. We don't really have a legitimate parole system here,
right? So there's really no review. view.

(22:29):
And so these guys are like really unset for society. Meanwhile,
you got guys who've been down 15, 20, 30, 40 years, and they should have been
out 20 years ago making a difference in society and are more than capable.
So, you know, I'm wrestling with this.
And while I'm wrestling with these thoughts, these ideas, not really understanding

(22:49):
where to go next, God places This is a man in my life, and his name is Christopher
Blackwell, and he just, on Thursday,
just got a 3-2 decision in his favor at the clemency board.
He more than likely will get the governor's signature in over 20 years,
and it's interesting who God will use, too.

(23:10):
So Christopher Blackwell is not a believer.
He's not filled with the Holy Spirit. He doesn't call on the name of all names. him and.
But God still uses him. And we're praying. We're praying for this man's salvation, right?
And in the meantime, what do we do? We just love him to Christ, right?

(23:32):
So we're loving Christ to Christ, as God is using him. How?
Well, he's an accomplished man in every paper, the New York Times.
He's interviewed with NPR. I mean, this guy is probably one of the top three
prison and journalists in the country, Christopher Blackwell.
He's an amazing human being, and we're just believing in his salvation.

(23:54):
So he met me, and he was referred to me by a guy who said, man,
Aaron's a good dude, right?
And he met me, and literally the same day was like, do you want to be in my
writing group? And I was like, yeah.
I want to be published, right? I mean, I've done some journaling.
I've done some journaling, right? And he's like, no, man, And we're going to

(24:15):
do some special things, right?
And we were just chopping it up, and he was kind of getting into my brain and
seeing what my views were.
He was like, have you ever heard of abolition or this and that?
And I was like, oh, those people are crazy, right? And he was like, no, no, no.
He was like, no, abolition. He starts breaking down what I've been feeling.
And he was like, it's kind of a broad umbrella.
You can be a reform minister. You can just believe that the system is unjust

(24:39):
and just want it better, right?
And I said, oh, well, I guess I'm an abolitionist then.
So as my views have kind of formed within the abolition movement,
Chris wrapped around kind of like a wraparound, you know, wraparound resources.
And these resources are just tremendous human beings, right?

(25:00):
Right. Debbie Zalesny, she's a CUNY law professor.
She put Jill Riley, she's an amazing human being, my researcher.
She works for a sitting U.S. senator.
Empowerment avenue that's rassan new york thomas i'm sure
you know who rassan is you know people have heard of rassan emily
nonco and so empowerment avenue that's who i work with directly and they open

(25:22):
up doors for me and i just you know i you know next thing you know i've written
several dozen several dozen articles you know everything from you know adolescent
brain development as it It relates to youthfulness,
to solitary confinement,
immigration policy, criminal statutes, restorative justice, my personal life experience.

(25:45):
And I'm finding myself in these, you know, writing for these publications and
in these spaces working with people who they don't care about my criminal history.
They want to know right now what I contribute to the community.
What do you contribute right now? who are you?
And man, these people have been so accepting of who I am.

(26:08):
And that all began with God putting Christopher Blackwell in my life.
And he always places the right people at the right time.
So let's talk about that. Have you noticed a tangible impact from your writing
and advocacy work on the prison system or public perception?
Yeah. So on the prison system, So, that's a tough one because most of the effects

(26:32):
that we see on the system is in their form of retaliation coming back at us.
Oh, yeah. It's just very sad.
What happens in the darkness, they don't want to lie. Oh, no.
You know, people know that these are modern plantations in rural areas,
hidden behind a roadside tree line, right?

(26:52):
And when that tree line clears, you see endless razor wire and guard towers
and a wall that meets you.
And when you enter the mills, the fight, the sound, you realize,
wow, this is disturbing.
And then you say, oh, what do you get paid? Oh, nothing or 10 cents or 42 cents.

(27:14):
And you think, wow, so you're forced to work for a slave wage.
And then if you hiccup or lift the wrong way on this plantation,
those in charge, you know, infract you, you know, the process is some evidence, right?
So it's an accusation leveled against a lot of these guys. And guess what?
If they do have a board hearing or trying to get resentenced,

(27:36):
that's a stain that doesn't come without consequences.
So you're forced onto this plantation, and many times the plantation masters
keep you on this plantation, and they do not want you to be extraordinary. Right.
So my impact really has been in community engagement.
I get so much feedback on social media and then people reaching out after reading one of my publications.

(28:02):
And it's just I think over the course of, what, two and a half,
three years now that I've been doing this in this space, I think I can count the haters on one hand.
I really can. It's wild that, you know, people say, oh, the world's evil or the world's horrible.
You know, the world has its share of problems, but people by and large in our

(28:23):
community are looking for redemption stories.
They believe in second chances. That's human nature, right?
We have a system in place that's contrary to that.
So there's been little changes and effects here within the prison system,
but that's really mainly from our influence on the community and them turning

(28:44):
and then advocating for us.
And thankfully, there's been some people in very high places that God has used
to apply pressure to those that run the system.
Hey, you know, change this or bring back this class.
Right. Or why'd you crush this organization?
So that's more of the that's more

(29:04):
of the public perception in prison yeah yeah
yeah certainly yeah i mean i
think that what the public i think that's the thing is really changing
the public perception because it's hard as they
say it's hard for a dog to learn new tricks which is
the prison system so of course it's hard for them
to learn something new because they have always been you

(29:26):
know trained and brainwashed that we have to treat people you
know like they're not human because they've supposedly committed this crime
and they're you know the low of the low the worst of the worst so it takes the
public's perception and the public's pressure on you know higher ups and legislators
to move that change because you know us expecting for the prison to be like

(29:47):
oh yeah what we do is wrong.
We're going to be waiting for the rest of our lives for them to understand that.
So that's why, you know, I have the podcast to move public perception because
we are the ones that can make the change and make the move in the direction that they should.
Like in Norway, like Norway is a prime example of how every prison should be
ran across the board, period, you know, because we're still human at the end of the day.

(30:12):
Everybody makes mistakes, even the ones that are,
you know, the ones that are watching y'all the ones that put
y'all there make mistakes all the time you know
there's a lot of prosecutory misconduct that goes on that's always
you know hid and you know what I mean so they're no
better than anybody nobody's better than anybody we all
make mistakes and so for us to just keep canceling people and

(30:33):
throwing them away because they committed a crime you have some that never
committed a crime and even the ones that have you're not
looking at the full picture of okay well why did they
commit this crime like what was their environment like what was their childhood hood
like you know what I mean so we have this
cancel culture over here which is just beyond
me of you know how we can cancel our own people warehouse our own people and

(30:56):
treat them the worst of the worst and then just put them back on the street
when they do get a chance to get back on the street and wonder why they recidivize
because you treated them like they wasn't human for so long and so you you know
you that's who you become that's who you think you are because that's what
you've been treated like for so long and it's hard to really bounce back from
that unless you have God on your side unless you have the willpower to bounce

(31:20):
yourself back from that kind of treatment for so long you know.
That's right. You make excellent points, Sierra. And, you know,
first of all, thanks for your bravery for hosting a podcast,
you know, like you do, and for continuing to put this in the public light. It's not easy.
It's not without reprisal. So when we look at the system, who's it filled with, right?

(31:44):
By and large, it's filled with poor and minority human beings,
mostly from our inner cities, right? And that's the reality.
Yeah, there's people from rural areas, you know, who grew up in poverty,
too. And there's people maybe who have the silver spoon and they hiccup or whatever.
But by and large, you didn't have good representation.
You're poor or minority. That's the majority of our prison system.

(32:06):
Them and and so and so most of us we've been we grew up in in a hood or a ghetto
or in some cases a slum and you've gone from one slum a six square block radius
which is your hood to another slum.
Six square block radius which is a compound right and you had no investment

(32:26):
in your life and guess what you still don't yeah so i love that you said norway
right so norway had the same problem we had out of the 90s.
They had a 70 to 80 percent recidivism rate.
And then they went to a compassionate approach.
Now, they don't have 50 different state systems like we do and 3,000 county

(32:46):
systems like we do, plus a federal system.
They have one system. So it was much easier to make the change to a compassionate
approach and investing into people and where they're working through about 16
different testing levels, right?
So it's constantly incentive, right? a constant incentive-based.

(33:06):
Process to where you're getting cutlery in your cell and you got work programs
and they're preparing you from day one for release instead of the U.S.
Prison system, which is a meat warehouse, right? A prison profiteering place.
Finally, at the very end of your sentence, after all of the bad habits have

(33:26):
been engraved, all of the trauma has been incurred, right?
All of the abuse and oppression, and they say, oh, here's a program real quick.
You're good, right? Okay, you know, now go do well, right?
And so we know that in spite of it, God is able, however, right,
you know, being in one of the countries in the forefront, we should have a much better,

(33:54):
justice system. So we all agree on that. out.
Definitely, definitely. So we're going to switch to Tracy.
We want to kind of get Tracy's opinion on some of these things and what it's
like to deal with incarceration while your husband's incarcerated, because that's tough.
I deal with that. So it's good to have other perspectives.

(34:16):
So Tracy, can you tell us how has your faith in God supported you through your
husband's incarceration?
Absolutely. Well, first of all, I just want to say thank you for having us on your show today.
We're just really happy to be here with you. Thank you, guys.
I just know that if I didn't have God in my life, that there would be no way

(34:36):
at all that we'd be able to get through this at all.
So it's just by faith in God to be able to get through this.
And I feel like with God, and it's very important to have.
A strong support network. And for me, that has been, you know,

(35:00):
people in, you know, in my church groups and,
you know, Bible study groups, singing in the choir, and just ultimately trying
to stay busy despite the challenges of being separated every day.
And, you know, we have the struggle of sometimes communication barriers.

(35:22):
For those that don't know what Securus is,
you know, it's a prison email and phone system, which oftentimes,
more often than not, makes communication more frustrating than it should be.
But, you know, in spite of that, I do believe that we still talk a lot,

(35:44):
probably more than the average couple, you know, and we make time for each other.
We stay connected through phone calls, emails, letters, you know,
visits, you know, and nowadays, most couples don't really even talk.
We'll just maybe throughout the day, send a few texts to one another.
And that, you know, for them, that their communication is not good.

(36:06):
But, you know, in spite of us being
separated almost daily you know we
do we do try to communicate you know as
often as possible even though we have obviously these barriers in front of us
you know visit restrictions and you know a lot of uncertainty and everything
like that but I didn't have God absolutely there would just be no way I wouldn't

(36:31):
be able to get through this at all yeah that's something we go
through and despite the because we
have gto which is just as bad and the internet always goes
in and out a lot of times they don't have enough tablets
for them so they have to share tablets and let's not even talk about the cost
the cost that we have to bear just to keep in communication with our loved ones

(36:54):
like me and my husband are one minute left are like you and aaron we'll be waiting
on you to call back but we're just like that we talk a lot like a lot during the day a
lot at night we send messages right now we don't have visits we were suspended
from visits for retaliation for the podcast um so we are yeah currently working

(37:14):
on getting my visitation back.
But through that all, and then we got married during COVID as well.
So I understand, you know, how hard it is to, and then we didn't have a prison
wedding because we got married during COVID.
So we had to go around the loop, which was get married in Alabama.
Because at that point in time, Alabama was like, hey, just send in,

(37:35):
we'll send you a marriage license.
You fill it out, you have it notarized, send it back, and then we'll send your marriage license.
So that's how we got married during the middle of COVID. but it's been
a struggle I mean for the first what year almost a
year and a half we couldn't see each other because there was no visitation thank
you for using secure as soon as I got approved like visitation was suspended

(37:56):
for COVID of course so it's been an up and down battle but it takes strength
and it takes the both of y'all to be able to build a marriage,
during incarceration because a lot of people can't do that you know what I mean Oh,
you know, one thing I've realized is just like the inner strength,
inner strength that you've never realized and a resilience that you didn't know

(38:19):
that you even had, you know, when starting this journey.
Me yeah and then you and you have to have God at the head of that marriage because it's so hard to.
Build a marriage without building upon God's foundation
period and that's just my opinion you know what
I mean that's how I felt like we've been able to to

(38:41):
build it you know what I mean because there's so much temptation out here a
lot of people just can't handle the fact that they can't be with their loved
one every day they can't go on vacations look there he is there he is right
An incarcerated individual at Washington Correctional Center.
This call is not private.
It will be recorded and may be monitored.

(39:02):
If you believe this should be a private call, please hang up and follow facility
instructions to register this number as a private number to accept this free call.
This is the real deal, y'all. This is what we go through.
That's right. This is what we go through. At least y'all get 20 minutes. So we get 15 minutes.

(39:23):
So imagine how much money we spend a day. Yeah.
What do you guys spend? Like three something per call? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, when these rates went to like a dollar, what is it? Like a dollar,
$17, $19 a minute, something like that.
No, no. Per call. Per call. Per call.

(39:46):
Sorry, I mean, it used to be way back. So, yeah, we were, you know,
county was like $5 and something.
And then kind of the, you know, then over the years, there was kind of a spike.
I mean, it's just a terrible system.
But if you just try to be thankful where you can, right? It's like,
man, phone calls should be free.
But thankfully, for us here in Washington, they're a dollar and some change, right? Right.

(40:10):
So, you know, I just yeah, that's that's that conundrum, right?
Being being thankful for what you have and still knowing that you're under a weight of injustice.
Right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yep. See, we have to spend 25 cent per minute per message
to send messages through GTO.

(40:32):
We don't have stamps, which would be a lot easier. I don't know. What is it?
It's like. 60 stamps for like 11 and a half bucks or almost 12 bucks. Yeah, yeah, 60 stamps.
I mean, it's still cheaper than the average postage stamp, but still. Yeah.
Like Gmail don't cost nothing, it's an email. No, it doesn't.

(40:57):
You're paying for the person to screen or something. Yeah.
Alright. Alright.
Tracy. So tell us how do you handle public perception and potential stigma associated
with your husband being incarcerated?

(41:17):
You know, I just, I just own it. You know, a lot of people, you know,
well, yeah, I'm pretty private, pretty private until I get to know somebody.
And then, then I'll tell them our story. But a lot of times,
you know, first, first time their reaction is like, oh, I'm sorry.
You know, and I'm like, well, there's nothing to be sorry for.

(41:38):
It's okay. Yeah, it's okay. You know?
Yeah, I'm sorry, too. And but he will be home one day, you know,
and I have, I believe that wholeheartedly, you know, just, we don't know when,
but I just I just own it. And I just said, Well, this is my life.
And you just kind of go, you just go on about your daily life.

(42:02):
And it's, but nine times out of 10, I have come to realize that people are more accepting.
Then you realize. Yeah, they are.
And when people say they're sorry, I'm like, are you sorry that I have to deal
with this crazy system? Are you sorry that my husband's incarcerated? Like, which one is it?
I mean. He's an amazing human being, let me tell you that. Yes.

(42:27):
Yes. We ain't sorry that we're together.
Right, right. And a lot of them be like, well, why didn't you just wait till
he come home to get married? I'm like, why wait?
Like, what are we waiting on? Right. You know what I mean? Absolutely.
You still can build love during separation like
intimacy there's there's difference in intimacy like you have your sexual intimacy

(42:47):
but then you also have your mental intimacy which to me tops everything like
if you are intimate with your partner and you're separated and you're on that
mental intimacy like that's probably the best that you could ever have because you're building off of
you know a bond you're building off of
intellect and and not sexual because

(43:09):
that's what a lot of people think intimacy is
is it sexual that's just an added part but real
intimacy is spiritually mentally emotionally
you know what I'm saying and so I give
us a lot more credit it go ahead for sure
i mean i i want to say that i feel

(43:29):
like our separation you know it it deepens our bond you know between us and
you know we're we're learning we learn to work together and maintain our marriage
despite the challenges yes yes and to maintain it you guys tell me if you
guys hold this to be true, but in this dynamic.

(43:53):
All of us have lived lives, right?
And I lived a life prior to incarceration, but there's never been... I can't fathom...
A more powerful connection or relationship than I have with my wife.
And I think some of that was built upon our circumstances.

(44:15):
You know, having that separation, connecting with, you know,
mental and emotional intimacy.
You know, there's the sexual, and we all try to navigate, you know,
those intricacies with our limitations here.
But, man, the connection is just so powerful. And then seeing what other,
you can't help but see other married couples, right? You see successes and failures.

(44:39):
And in a lot of marriages, you see just kind of like this existence, right?
Like, do you guys even really know each other? Or do you still know each other?
And they'll go days without even really talking or engaging with each other.
And then here in prison, it's interesting because you get to see married couples who work here, right?

(45:00):
Right. And then all of the other baggage that goes with that and the weird stuff of being.
You know, I mean, you can just imagine, but you're thinking like,
wow, you know, if you guys, I believe,
you know, again, one of the things I'm very thankful for is part of our suffering
and our struggle has created a benefit in our connection, in our relationship building.

(45:24):
And that's something that just can't be replaced or found
anywhere else and that's our foundation so the
day that i am free and the day that your husband is free
you know we've already we have a foundation that is unbreakable founder or built
and it's it's unbreakable because if you're able if you're able to make it through

(45:45):
incarceration with the marriage then there's you can't tell me there's nothing
that you can't make it through together because that's probably one of the The
hardest things, in my opinion,
that you will ever go through is having to deal with the life of incarceration,
everything that comes with it.
You know what I mean? And the challenges and the barriers that you have to go
through just that maintain a relationship.
And so to me, if you can make it through that, you can make it through anything.

(46:09):
And like you said, you have people out here who, you know, they get mad about
financials and they let the minuscule things break them up.
You know what I mean? And they're out here together every day.
And then us, you know, we're not with our loved one every day,
but we're able to maneuver and work out the kinks and the bumps that we have

(46:29):
to go through in order to maintain our marriage. You know what I mean?
Right. Yeah. I mean, people talk about communication, right?
You know, if you don't know how to communicate, when you engage in a relationship,
an incarceration of some form or fashion, you quickly learn how to communicate.

(46:50):
You know, sometimes I think of it like a blind person, right?
So someone who had lost their sight or lost some ability, their other senses are heightened, right?
So we just, you know, it's just, I don't know. I just give glory to God.
He gives many of us in these situations the ability, heightens our ability to

(47:14):
communicate and to work through the nuances and the challenges of life.
And to be able to do that without looking at each other face-to-face,
without holding each other, which is a huge need for human beings,
but to be able to communicate and articulate our message, our point of heart,
our desires, our, you know, whatever we're disgruntled about, right?

(47:36):
And then to love each other, to be intimate over the phone.
So that's special. That is very special. Very special. Special.
So Tracy, tell me, what are some of the biggest challenges you face in day to
day life, like in daily life?
I mean, you know, having to be a wife, and then you having to take care of a
whole household, and then, you know, support your, your husband in prison.

(47:57):
Like, what, what is the biggest challenge that you feel for you daily?
I would say, you know, just being separated. That is the absolute hardest part.
And then just navigating the system, you know, of having those visit restrictions.
And, you know, I would also say the emotional highs and lows,

(48:19):
you know, that is associated with prison life.
You know, long distance, the driving, I would, you know, I would do it in a heartbeat.
But learning how
to find strength again like we were talking about
earlier and just trying to navigate all
these challenges together but I

(48:40):
feel like I have developed and starting to hone more coping skills to be able
to manage the stress and just the emotional drain of not having him home daily
so both of us have really really just,
this last year, we've been really focusing on our health and our fitness.

(49:02):
And just, you know, we try to stay as busy as we possibly can and not focus
on the negative, you know, of our of our situation. And we just try to make the best of it.
And I just also I try to find comfort and solidarity with with other,
you know, quote, unquote, prison wise, I hate that term.
I just, I'm just a wife, regular wife.

(49:23):
I'm not a prison wife, but I'm a wife.
But just whatever, whatever whatever we can possibly do to just make this situation
more tolerable and more bearable.
My strength is, you know, my faith is very important to me.
And so I just find solace and strength in God and just try to grow during this time.

(49:46):
And it's a time of, I would say, just personal growth.
And we just try to make it a time of having a deeper understanding of our priorities and our goals.
So both of us, we just try to stay focused and thinking more about the long-term
goals like our future and just planning for our future.

(50:10):
Yeah, that's definitely what we try to do.
Because I mean, if you focus on the emotional roller coaster that comes with
this thing that we have to deal with, it could it could take you up out of here, like literally.
And that's that's what we do is you
know focus on like we work out like we find things to do together

(50:30):
even though we're separated we find things to
do together like working out and you know we have two businesses and then we
have the podcast so we work on that together and throw ideas back and forth
you know we exercise you know we try to eat if we can together you know watch
so try to find things that we could do together and then also just leaning into God because,

(50:52):
you know, sometimes that's all you could do is just call his name and be like,
Lord, I need you like right now.
This is hard, you know, because we're human. So we go through those emotions
of wanting our spouse here, especially if your day's not going right.
And you're just like, oh, if you were home, this would be so much better.
And then you're, you know, you're faced with reality like he's not home.
So, you know, I have to man up and do this and keep doing it until he gets home

(51:16):
and also be their strength as well, because they can't always be strong.
You know what I mean? Especially the things that they go through and they see
on a daily basis, it's hard for them to always be strong.
And so sometimes we have to be strong when they can't. And so it takes a lot of...
To get through this thing. I don't think a lot of people realize that,
but when you love somebody, you'll do what you can, you know what I mean?

(51:39):
How do you guys feel about that? I'm not too sure about that. Yeah.
So, so, it's interesting, what, so, from my wife's perspective, right?
So we don't always articulate all the nuances of every day, but,
you know, I can, I know she loves me for, for a myriad of reasons,
but when, when they're mistreating me here, with medical, right?

(52:04):
And my wife has to call and deal with six different transfers and people hanging
up on her and not returning her calls just to,
you know, get me on a different diet or to get me seen if I have gut inflammation or I have,
you know, why do I have headache all of a sudden?
Or, you know, why is my skin peeling all of a sudden, right?

(52:27):
They have this reclaimed water that they've gone to, or they put it behind glass, right?
For you guys, messing with you because you're a podcast.
I dealt with that a couple years ago with my podcast.
And so what takes DOC, the Department of Corrections, a split second,
a signature, a decision, many times takes our loved ones, the wives of their husbands in prison.

(52:51):
It takes our wives hours, weeks, months, right?
Sometimes years to undo an unjust decision that takes literally the stroke of
the pen or a quick decision by an administrator.
And so that's love, right? That's long suffering.
That's bearing what that's coming alongside your spouse who's incarcerated and

(53:12):
dealing with the never-ending bureaucracy of the system that just,
it seeks to crush you. It's to weigh you down.
Every interaction, virtually every interaction with the staff,
and they treat you like the criminal, right?
First of all, I committed crimes. I'm not a criminal, right?

(53:33):
They still treat me like a criminal. They're frisking me, dehumanizing strip searches.
I get secondary spray, if they're spraying the guy with very harsh chemicals.
And so it's interesting, our very first contact visit,
my wife and I, very first contact visit ever, they deployed OC spray in the

(53:53):
visiting room on a guy who they said exhibited pre-attack indicators.
What is that? The guy wasn't flipping out, right?
He was a little rambunctious. There was nothing that you could do.
Right. And so they're hosing them down. And then this spray goes everywhere.

(54:15):
And I look at my wife, right? We're not engaged or anything at the time.
We're feeling each other. Okay, we can see where this can go.
And I look at her. We're wearing masks. It's during COVID, which lasted forever in prison.
I look at her and I said, are you up for this?
We're crying. You know, we all got secondary spray. Our noses are running off our face.

(54:37):
Everything is burning on fire. it right right
we experience that all the time in prison but loved one
we should have even especially loved ones should
have just i'm looking at her our faces are literally
running down right right it's not you know everything i look at her and we pull
down our mask i said are you up for this and and just you know i'm not here

(55:01):
to glorify bonnie and clyde or anything like that but she She looked at me and
she said, I'm your ride or die chick.
Yeah. I'm your ride or die chick. She knew what she was signing up for.
A civilian who has a bachelor degree in business, an emphasis in entrepreneurship.
She can do whatever she wants. She works for the state, right?
She works for the state right now.

(55:23):
And just a beautiful human being, highly intelligent. She could do whatever
she wants. She could be with whomever she wants.
And she looked at me, a man with a life sentence in prison. We just got sprays, right?
Everyone in that room got sprays. And she said, I'm your ride-or-die chick. And that sums it all up.
You know, a prison, a wife, a wife who's with someone incarcerated,

(55:45):
they have to give everything, including their dignity in the process.
And no human being should have to give up their dignity. But these processes
try and seek to dehumanize even you as free citizens, as taxpayers, right? Right.
And their salary, they seek to dehumanize and demoralize and to crush you and to remove all hope.

(56:08):
And you guys, you women have to give everything for us in this process.
That can't be that is not understated. It's not.
But God says love, bear all things and is patient, is kind and is long suffering.
And that's what I believe.
And that's what I know. you know what I mean I know at the
end of the day he will reward us for being

(56:32):
our helper because that's that's what he put us here for we're
our husband's helper and so we are here to help y'all through this unjust and
to help y'all grow through this as well because we all need somebody to help
us grow especially through a situation like this and so that's what I told my
husband like I'm here you know a lot of times I know sometimes he.

(56:53):
You know, hears from other guys when their girl has cheated on them and things
of that nature. And sometimes that lingers in the back of his mind.
He's like, I got all this time.
And, you know, and I'm like, I'm here. Like, that doesn't mean anything to me.
Time is time, you know, and we're on God's time.
We're not on the DOC's time or whatever time says and when you look you up,
that's not what time we're on.
God has the last word, the last say so at the end of the day.

(57:17):
And so, you know, I'm here doing what he wants, what he wants me to do.
And this is what he told me to do. And so this is what I'm doing and this is
what we're going to do till he says it's time until our time is up You know what? I mean?
So yeah, yeah Yeah All right Well, aaron, we'll be waiting on you to call back.
This is probably the last one but it's been such a joy to talk to you guys and

(57:39):
get a perspective from another married couple, you know, and Just like-minded
people Yeah, like like-minded people It's a joy to turn on.
Thanks for having us yeah absolutely okay thank
you while he's calling back tracy can you tell
us the caller has hung up what changes or reforms
that you hope to see in the criminal justice system

(58:02):
based off your experiences well we live in washington you know and it's supposed
to be one of the most progressive states but i feel like not only in washington
but in all of the states the things need to change because it's just archaic laws.

(58:22):
And there needs to be reform everywhere.
And just really hoping that somebody, somebody's eyes will become wide open
to realize that people are being sentenced to exceptionally long sentences.
In Washington, I don't know about
North Carolina, but we don't have parole here. We don't either. Yeah.

(58:48):
Parole was gone in 94. Aaron. Awful. An incarcerated individual at Washington Correction Center.
This call is not private. It will be recorded and may be monitored.
If you believe this should be a private call, please hang up and follow facility
instructions to register this number as a private number.
To accept this free call, press 1. Thank you for using Securus.

(59:10):
You may start the conversation now.
You're back. Hey. I'm back. Yeah.
But yeah, as we were saying that she was saying that there's no parole in North Carolina either.
Now we have a life, a lot of lifers or death row. And then we have mandatory minimums also.

(59:30):
Yeah. Wow. Which is quite our country. You know, I'm safe.
You know, there's some states that are starting to do it right.
And, yeah, I was in a conversation with someone the other day about, you know,
our system of government and our state with their level of sovereignty and our
federal system and how that all kind of works together or doesn't work together.

(59:55):
And, you know, the checks and balances are.
And the framing of our Constitution that came into play in 1776,
and then, you know, the Bill of Rights in the 1790s, 1791, come around there.
This experiment, you know, this idea that this is the greatest thing on earth,
and just to push back against that a little bit, it certainly appeared to be

(01:00:18):
a greater system, at least at that time.
But since then, many countries and governments have established constitutions
that have built upon ours.
And so these, while we have some archaic checks and balances,
it appears that our system is structured in such a way where the gears of justice

(01:00:42):
sure do move slowly in this country, and maybe more slowly than they ought to.
I'm all for a more perfect union and I think we need today we're in need of
a more perfect union still we are Tracy you want to finish I know you were saying

(01:01:03):
what you I know I asked you what you think should change he basically,
just summed it up you know And to touch on that a little bit more.
Restore, restore. Defer, defer. Yes.
You know, I believe in the power of redemption and this rehabilitation with our justice system.

(01:01:30):
And I just believe that, you know, change is real and, but we know that it's
going to be very, very slow, but you know, my hopes is that all states eventually
will just move towards the Norway model.
That is just the, the more just way to do things. And I'm, I'm hoping that.

(01:01:52):
The change will be swift instead of this slow progression that,
you know, unfortunately is what we're seeing.
But in the justice system, we know that the wheels turn very slowly,
but very slow, very slow.
I'm hoping that something will change rapidly.

(01:02:13):
Yeah, I mean, me too. And to me, the right thing to do is, of course,
bring the Norway model in. But restorative justice is so important.
Because you're healing both sides. And I believe that if you have healing of
both sides of the person that committed the crime and then the person that lost
their loved one to a crime or the one that was a victim of a crime,

(01:02:36):
it'd be more understanding because you're healing them.
Because we're just set on a justice system where, oh, well, we'll give them
this god-awful time and this will fix, this will be your justice when you hear
them all the time saying, well, I don't feel like I got justice.
Even though this person got life or they got the death penalty,
I don't feel like I got justice. My loved one's not here.

(01:02:57):
You know, I can never bring them back. And so you're not healing them.
And a lot of people don't even know where to begin to heal.
So if you have restorative justice, right? Yeah, those harms the most, right?
The victims and the perpetrator who comes from trauma, those at the center of it, right?
You know, there's no investment, right? You know, the victim wasn't a priority.

(01:03:20):
Right. Right. And so that's why they're like, oh, well, give them this insane
amount of time and why they're still hurting and why they feel like this person is the low of the low.
So if we're healing both sides and you are bringing the person that committed
the crime and then the one that was a victim or the crime or the family and
have them really sit down and hash that trauma together.

(01:03:41):
Other i mean just the whole community could
be 10 times more better because you're healing each side you're
having a person understand and own up to what they did and then understand
why they did it and then you're having the one that experienced the crime
to kind of understand why this happened and then actually heal from it because
you're confronting it head-on you're not just you know pushing it under a rug

(01:04:03):
every day like you know well let's let me get up and keep going but you're You're
actually starting to heal that trauma because you're confronting it face on,
head on, instead of just continually trying to figure out a way to avoid it.
And so I think that's where we have went wrong for so many years.
We're not helping them heal.

(01:04:24):
Sadly, restorative justice is an aberration of the system, right?
It surfaces here and there in like a program or kind of like as an attachment
or an extra needy somewhere.
Somewhere, and it really should be in a core, you know, moving towards a transformative
justice model, you know, having that restorative justice as a core principle in our justice system.

(01:04:46):
Huge believer in it. I swear by it. It changed my life.
I've been a part of, you know, groups where I've been able to affect change
in the lives of those who have been victimized, those who are survivors,
Those who have family, you know, who have had family members that lost their
lives and, you know, just the whole gambit.
And it's something I absolutely swear by having been part of it.

(01:05:09):
Yeah. I mean, it works wonders for people. I just I don't know why that hasn't
always been, you know, the head of the forefront, because, you know,
Indian tribe nations have been doing restorative justice for decades.
Years upon years, you know, that's how they they heal Popular in africa too far.
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely but you know, hopefully eventually,

(01:05:30):
you know, we will catch on to a better way of treating all of our people because
we're all human and so You know,
hopefully we all can keep advocating and keep pushing the system to move towards
a more of a humanity and understanding that
you're causing more and more trauma. Prison is causing more and more trauma.
You're causing people to recidivize because so many people get so institutionalized

(01:05:53):
that they can't even handle being
in society anymore because they've been institutionalized for so long.
And that, you know, we're all still human and not slaves.
So the 13th Amendment needs to be abolished all the way, period.
Because nobody should be treated like a slave, even if they commit a crime.
You know, it's about forgiving. It did not.

(01:06:14):
That's right. That's right. It enshrined slavery.
That's right. I'm so glad that you're into that.
And these compounds, these modern plantations do not reflect society at all.
I always call this place like Mars, right? Right. Because you're going back
to a different planet when you get out and not only the treatment here,

(01:06:35):
but also the condition and how it's set up.
And you speak on institutionalization, but you have the dynamics and the structure
of these modern plantations is not only reinforces trauma, but also contribute at a higher rate.
And i think that's what they want is because they want to keep us enslaved because

(01:06:58):
look how they make billions of dollars off of people and free labor so that's
that's why it's important to,
you know let the community know that this is what's happening like they're just
using these people for free labor and not to actually try to rehabilitate or
help them overcome the things that have gotten them there you know yeah that's

(01:07:18):
the thing the average person doesn't realize what's happening.
They don't. They don't. Because they brainwash us to think, oh,
well, this person committed a crime so they got to go do the time.
Yeah. Over here in the Northwest, serial killers are nothing new, right?
But over here in the Northwest, every type of reform that's submitted in legislation,

(01:07:46):
any bill that comes across that would lead to the morgue system.
Those who have a financial interest in mass incarceration begin to pump out commercials.
Commercials when I get into the media and say, you know, this is going to release
the worst of the worst, right?
And then we equate it to, you know, whoever the worst, you know,
Gary Hurtway, you know, the Green River Killer or whoever, right?

(01:08:10):
Like, look, really, you know, he's never going to get out, right?
And people who were in opposition to the Norway model around the world,
again, it was put into a compassionate approach, was put into effect in the
90s before the Anders Breivik situation,
and he's the guy who went on to the island and killed like 70-something youth.

(01:08:33):
And so people point to that and say, well, he only got, you know, 20, 25 years or 26 years.
Well, what they also are failing to mention is that Norway has a review process.
And so if you don't qualify for release, you know, a psychological test,
what you've done to prepare for re-entry, They then have five-year reviews after that.

(01:08:56):
They don't have to let you out. There's this idea that, oh, no,
you can just go on a killing spree, and then you're going to get out in 20 or
25 years. No, that's not how that works.
There's a review process, which the U.S. in many states does not have, right? Right.
So, you know, when you sentence an 18-year-old, or however old you are,

(01:09:16):
right, still exulting, brings through a life sentence, and you don't have a
review process in 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years.
You know, that's an injustice, but that's a different human being,
that's a mature adult now, right?
So the Norway model, I cannot rave more about it. It's a beautiful model.
I've investigated inside and out. We absolutely need that or something very similar to that here.

(01:09:42):
And then people who, you know, kick against a compassionate model,
which, by the way, they went from a 70-plus percent recidivism rate in the 90s,
many people don't know that, to today a below 20% recidivism rate. It sure did.
Meanwhile, the U.S. is still struggling, hovering around an 80% national recidivism rate.

(01:10:04):
This is an indictment of our system, right?
So any system you give tens or, in our case, hundreds of billions of taxpayer
dollars to, and it says it requires with an 80% failure rate,
you know, that system is derelict. That's an indictment of the system.
Yes, that's what we have. That is true. That is true. Well, you guys,

(01:10:27):
we've been on for an hour. I appreciate it's been so insightful.
You guys are amazing. Keep doing what you're doing.
Keep following God's plans and his path because he's got y'all on the right
path and keep bringing people to him.
But yeah, I appreciate everything. Thank you. Guys, any last words? I appreciate it.

(01:10:48):
We do have some last words. Your audience can follow Tracy and I on X,
The Abolition Christian, and Aaron Olson, 1986.
You can also check out my Facebook and LinkedIn, Aaron Edward Olson,
all of our podcasts, patreon.com forward slash The Abolition Christian.
And Tracy and I, our motto, really, as well, there's a breath in your body.

(01:11:11):
There's hope for your life and we believe
that that all people listening to this
that are moved with compassion just be encouraged that you can make a difference
even as one person no matter where you're at you can make a difference in the
lives of others you never know what someone is struggling with whether you come

(01:11:32):
across someone who's unhoused in society struggle with addiction in our suicidal thoughts,
a word in due season, right? That perfect word.
And you have no idea how I just, I just encourage you to open up your mouth and just speak.
Let God use you to speak into the lives of those who need a positive word and
a word of encouragement.

(01:11:52):
Also be encouraged to reach out to people in prison.
There are brothers and sisters, over 2 million of them are suffering under this
current injustice and oppression all around the nation,
where 5% of the world's population, and 25% of the world's prison population.
And our men and women and children that are incarcerated, and many of which

(01:12:17):
come from trauma, need people to invest in their lives and to show them love
and that their life has hope and redemption and value.
Thanks for having us on. God bless you. God bless you guys.
Take care. And I'm here anytime you need me. You want to get on again,
just reach out. But yeah, thank you guys so much. and I hope you all have a wonderful evening.

(01:12:38):
Thank you. You too. Thanks, Martha. Anytime.
We'll be late. Of course. God bless you. Take care. Bye. You too.