November 24, 2021 • 46 mins
Digital Care Futures
2. Technology and Care: Startups and Innovators
Technology is fundamental to our everyday lives and is becoming increasingly ‘smart’ through the use of sensors, Artificial Intelligence (AI) and data collection and processing. There has been an explosion of new developments in the care and technology marketplace, with new devices, software and service models, focused on different consumers within the care ecosystem.
Our Sustainable Care programme research found this marketplace is confusing and hard to navigate for commissioners of adult social care, care providers who are increasingly expected to include technology as part of their ‘offer’, and people who need support and their carers. With growing numbers of start-ups in the sector, there were concerns from purchasers – commissioners, care providers and people who use services – about sustainability and whether these ‘new players’ would be able to provide the same level of customer support as they grow their businesses.
At the same time, our research found start-ups experienced challenges in making their way into the marketplace, with some commissioners of services felt to be risk-averse and allied with large, ‘dependable’ and established – but perhaps less innovative – organisations. Some commissioners were happy to pilot new approaches, but more cautious about investing at scale.
In Episode 2 of the Sustainable Care and TSA 'Digital Care Futures' podcast, Kate Hamblin (University of Sheffield) and Eve Solomon (TSA) spoke to guests from three very different start-ups, all using technologies to facilitate and support care, to explore some of the challenges and opportunities they had encountered.
Neil Eastwood, founder and CEO of Care Friends, an employee referral app for social care. “a start-up like this is like a massive freight train in the station with a mini-engine and you’re screaming the mini-engine as much as you can to get some movement and eventually you start to get movement. Once you get momentum, life gets a lot easier because you can’t be stopped. But trying to get going, that’s the thing”
Hector Alexander, co-founder of Yokeru, which provides AI-driven automated voice call systems to care providers, including Local Authorities. “It's much easier if you know from the start this is a long-term game. It doesn’t take a few months- it takes years or more”
Darren Crombie, CEO and founder of Bridgit Care. Bridgit care provides a range of products and support aimed at assisting unpaid carers. “We say to our caring community ‘you’re not alone’ and I think as start-ups we need to remember- ‘you’re not alone- we’re part of a collective of people trying to innovate and make a difference”.
Learn more about Sustainable Care on our website: http://circle.group.shef.ac.uk/
---Intro/outro music: Ambient Cool by Sunsearcher is licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 Gain/fade effects applied
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
The Digital
Futures Podcast series is a collaborationbetween The Sustainable Care
Research Programme, funded by the Economicand Social Research Council
and the Technology Enabled CareStrategy Board,
(TSA) The Industry and advisory bodyfor the UK tech sector.
For each podcast,we invite expert guests to explore with us
the challenges and opportunitiestechnology can bring to care and caring
(00:32):
. Hello and welcometo the Second of our Sustainable Care
Programme and Tech ServicesAssociation Podcasts today.
Myselfand my co-host Eve Solomon from the TSA
are going to be talking toand about start-ups and innovators
and the challenges and opportunitiesthey face in the care sector.
And we're going to reflectfirst on some of our experiences,
(00:54):
both from the research sideand also from the TSA perspective.
So as part of the Sustainable
Care Programme,we did a series of stakeholder engagement
consultations where we spoke to variousdifferent actors in the care ecosystem,
including commissioners of servicesand people in the technology
enabled care sector , people in the caretechnology sector,
(01:17):
care providers, people receiving
support and services, unpaid carersto try and explore
the sorts of issues that they were facingaround technology and care.
And something that kept coming upwas the increasingly confusing technology
and care marketplaceand being able to navigate this and
(01:38):
tease out what different providers,what different technology
could could be beneficialfor all these different stakeholders.
Commissioners were finding it challenging.
They were finding it difficult
to perhaps take a chance on newerand smaller organisations
and move away from seeing themwith traditional tech providers.
(01:58):
And there were also issues with some careproviders who were finding it difficult
to include technology in their services,and it's increasing a requirement
to include some sort of technologyin their in their services,
both from a commissioning perspective,but also the expectations of service
users as well.
And there were also challengesfrom those needing care and support
(02:20):
to try and navigate this marketplaceif self-funding.
And part of the challengewas the increasing number of start-ups
and concerns about longevityand the ability for those organisations
to scale up and continue to provideexcellent customer service.
But we also spoke to Start-Upsand they were finding it really hard.
They were finding it hard to get backand make their way in this marketplace
(02:42):
to convince commissioners of serviceswho might be slightly risk averse, to to
try and convince them to go beyond a pilotand to invest, invest in scale, really.
So those were some of the thingsthat we found, you know, in our research.
And I wonder if you want to come inand talk really about the TSA
experienceof working with start-ups and innovators.
(03:04):
I think
for innovators and start-ups,they would really benefit
from truly putting themselvesinto the shoes of commissioners.
You know, what is itthat's keeping them up at night?
Commissioners are being presentedwith a huge plethora
of different technology solutions.
And it's how do they choose which one?
(03:24):
So it's it's absolutely criticalthat innovators are clearly demonstrating.
What sets them apart from competition.
How are they future proofing that product?
Yes, there'sa lot of innovation in the sector,
but are they futureproofing their technology?
Will they still be the product of choicein two years, three years time?
(03:46):
Commissioners are becomingalso increasingly wise to
collaborative approaches.
So the days of creating somethingin a sort of
siloed bubble are firmly over now.
So it's how can you demonstrate that that
that your product is open protocolthat you've considered
how it fits into the overall servicewraparound from beginning to end.
(04:09):
So how does your product solvejust one problem or does it solve four?
Are you in conversationswith with services
and how does it fit into that?
It's also criticalthat innovators are considering
how their product feedsinto the proactive and preventative
(04:30):
agenda,and even more so, the personalisation.
We now have a situationwhere health, housing and social care all
is a commonality of languagebeing used now, which is fantastic.
It's something we've been working towardsfor a while, and it's an agenda
that we're going to be really,
TSA significantly going to be running withfor the next 12 months.
So in order to really be relevant,
(04:53):
it's about demonstratinghow your product sort of feeds into that.
What are you doing to demonstrate that?
And again,that we see an increased commitment
to working in an interoperable way.
You know, what are you doing to putput that in place as well?
And I think the key point is
creating productthat can show the mark of quality.
(05:14):
So a commissioner is going to be concernedabout whether that product is safe
for the service user and it's safealso for the health professional
that's using it.
And suppliers would be missing a trick
if they didn't produce a productthat was very much
embedded in a quality frameworkfrom the get go.
(05:38):
There's a lot of talk about innovation,but that doesn't
seem to be quite as much talkabout trust and confidence.
And I think when you'redealing in a sector that is about people
and keeping people safe,this is an absolute key point,
not only in its production values,but also in the key messages
that the suppliersare trying to get out in their marketing.
(06:00):
You know, is your product trustworthy?
Can the commissionerhave confidence in it?
And I think that is a real key pointthat's overlooked.
TSA Quality Standard Framework
is now being positioned alongside C QC
and even the NHS internal audit programme.
We've seen evidence of this in Liverpool
(06:23):
and this is only goingto become more apparent.
So suppliers would be reallymissing a trick if they didn't consider
quality as a real sort of benchmarkin the production of their product.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think it's also the safety
of people,which is is obviously paramount,
the data as welland how it flows with some of the systems
(06:44):
that are being introducedand who owns that data?
How is it stored? Is it is it safe? Well,thank you.
I think we can now welcome our guests.
So I'm delighted todayto welcome three quite different start-ups
in the technology enabled care servicesand care technology sector
who all have a slightly different approachto technology in the care ecosystem.
(07:05):
They have slightly different focus,slightly different models,
and I just want to
introduce them all to you nowand then talk through their experiences.
So first, I'd like to welcome HectorAlexander from Yokeru;
who you don't mind telling us a little bitabout yourself and about Yokeru do?
Thanks very much. Nice to meet you.
(07:27):
So my brotherand I found a joker about a year ago,
and we saw it as a move towardsbeing more proactive and more preventative
in the delivery of care.
And we realised thateveryone has a home phone at home.
It's the most digitally inclusiveplatform.
Memberspick up the phone and speak to someone.
So we built a platformthat allows one human operator
(07:48):
to speak to 10,000 service users in halfan hour and check on their wellbeing.
And so we've been working with careproviders, local authorities
and monitoring centres to to help themsupport their communities better.
Thank you, Hector.
That's so interesting.
And it chimes in with another causewe've done, which is a proactive
(08:09):
and preventative approach to technologywhich.
As we've seen in other parts of the world.
It's very famously in Barcelona,but it's something that in the UK we're
only really,
I think, moving towardsinstead of the sort of very reactive
traditional systems which jump in inan emergency rather than of
they're trying to prevent an emergencyfrom happening in the first place.
(08:30):
Thank you.
And I'd also like to welcome DarrenCrombie from Bridget Care.
Hi, Darren.
Can you talktell us a little bit about what you do.
Yeah, thanks, Kate.
And I think it really kind of links inwe will act with say in there
that you know as an organisation Bridgetcare we're looking to really support
family carers and help them to deliverpreventative care to their loved ones.
(08:52):
So my, my name's Diane Crombieand she's myself at the start
and I'm the founder of Bridget Careand my background
was really working in the healthand care system for about 20 years
with commissionersand really big health integrators.
And what we really sawis that a lot of the traditional support
we were putting in wasn't really working,it wasn't changing outcomes.
And we kept investing in technologyfor doctors and nurses, which
(09:17):
was was great to treat sick patients,but not very good for prevention.
So through that journey, we really learntthat, that this is a massive army
out there of sevenand a half million family carers in the UK
who do an amazing job like meand my sister look up my grandad
and to keep the loved oneswell and out of high cost care.
So what we've been buildingis a platform for them.
(09:38):
So we've built a set of highmonitoring products
that help them find accessible toolsfor looking after Grandad.
We've got an app for the care themselvesand we've launched a camera shop as well
because we recognise it's really hardas carers funds what you need.
So we've got personalised care show,we can go in and find
the products out there for youbased on your needs and get help today.
(10:01):
Thank you dear.
And that was
that was the thing that really came upin our findings, this sort of difficulty
that carers who are really strugglingwith a lack of time
because they're balancing often workand other responsibilities
with care in finding information, supportand advice
from someone they can trust and somewherethat is sort of impartial.
So that's really helpful. Thank you.
(10:23):
Neil Eastwood from CareFriends has a slightly different focus
and I think it's really greatthat we've got quite a different range
of different staff
today with different focuson different parts of the care system.
And I'd just like you to introducecare reference really
because I think it'sreally fascinating organisation.
No thanks. It's
yes. So this is
(10:43):
focussed entirely on the workforceand it's a problem I've been trying
to solve for about 13 yearsand that is how do we recruit and retain
, you know, an effective, high qualityprofessional workforce
and years and years of researchpointing me all the time to something
obvious that I it took me a long time toto Penny to finally drop.
And that is that the mechanismof finding the highest quality
(11:07):
longerstaying care staff is employee referral.
And then I looked at an employeereferral scheme and it's just clunky and,
you know, tall post somewhereand the care staff forget.
And I wondered if we can gamify,if we can remove the friction from that
by giving an app to care workersand rewarding them with points.
And the point is a poundfor different stages.
(11:29):
As their friend moves throughthe recruitment process, they get rewards.
Can that change?
Can that remove the friction?
And if so, how many people out thereare possibly available to be recruited?
And that's the journeywe're going on with conference.
Thank you.
So yeah, we've got some really interestingstart-ups
all focussing on different partsof that carry through system to challenges
(11:51):
the workforce challenge,the unpaid carer challenge
and how we support themto do such an important job
shifting servicesto prevention rather than reaction.
I'd like to talk to you.
I don't want to be pessimistic.
Let's talk about the challenges you faced,the start-ups in working in this space.
Maybe I'll start with with Neil firstthis time.
(12:12):
Guinness.
Yeah, I'll try and keep it brief.
So I think the I mean, perhapsunlike some start ups, I've been,
you know, I understand the sector deeply,so that wasn't an issue.
On navigating that worldThe challenge has been primarily
building on which we we didn't have a
I didn't have a technical co-founder,so we were always on the back foot.
(12:34):
I outsourced the tech developmentand that has been fraught,
continues to be fraught,and then trying to understand
how to get thisinto a very fragmented sector.
So we we sought to use kind of friendsthe you need the care
staff to be told about itand to be excited to download the app,
you need a recruiter to operate itand as soon as a candidate comes in,
(12:56):
they have to do something about itpromptly.
And you need the manageror the owner of the business
or senior managementor the directors to be on site too.
So we had key stakeholderswe needed to involve
and we launched in June 2020,
so kind of mid to peaks of COVID.
And so it was a really difficultenvironment
to launch into with a lot of distractionand, you know,
(13:19):
kind of panic and care businessesnot really coping with planning ahead.
They were very much more reactive
to, you know,all of the things that were going on.
So so I think that maybewas a situational issue.
But we do find that
the we need to register managerto read to be aware of this and often
as a demographic cohort tend to be olderfemales who their whole life
(13:42):
has been about removing riskand taking a risk.
And technology is something that can bedifficult for them to understand.
So we see with the app's huge
successes, but also disappointmentsand it's the same platform.
So the questionthen is it's down to a co-production
between us and, you know,the individual care organisation.
(14:04):
And often the smaller ones are the onesthat don't have the resources
in order to deal with,you know, if we deliver a high quality
candidate is recommended by a friend,20% of them are never even contacted.
So we know our technology has to gofurther to do more nudges, more reminders.
So, yeah, it's a it's a journeythat's really interesting.
I hope by any piece and yeah,you say the sort of frictionless,
(14:26):
but also the nudge doesn'ttip over to being
too obtrusive but at the same timegets people to action something.
Thank you, Darren.
Do you want to reflect onwhat challenges you faced as a Start-Up?
Yeah.
So firstly, just want to say any thought,listen to this.
Be optimistic, be positive.
There is so much opportunityto change this space and change the world.
(14:48):
So, you know, give it a go.
But with that recognise it's going to bepainful, it's going to be hard,
you know, lots of sleepless nightsrunning a stall because,
you know, things that are worthwhileare hard to achieve.
And in this space, the big free challengesfor many years is, well, funding.
We'll talk more about thatin a minute to responsibility.
(15:09):
So when I mean responsibility,I mean that the councils today
are not responsiblefor preventative care delivery.
So when we speak to a counciland we talk about the amazing jobs
that family carers doand how they can deliver a really shift
to preventative care, they say, great,look, the efficacy studies
where we can say we can deliver 14 to allbut say actually that's not my job.
(15:32):
So my job in adult social care servicestoday is the commission a service
that basically responds when somebody pushthe button is not to deliver
a service that stops somebody from needingto push that button in the first place.
So for me and so we actually shiftthat responsibility
and make that an obligation and councilsto be responsive, preventative care
(15:52):
or recognise the severe organisationsand challenge charges out there
in the voluntary sector.
They're doing that today thenwe're not going to be able to really shift
what we do and will stay in the spacewhere we are trial to trial,
but we don't have broader adoptionof those newer technologies.
Now I think the last one for meis the ecosystem.
So we know who the big players are andI've been up for dinner with some of them.
(16:15):
And, you know, I get where those guys are.
You know, they're in a tricky positionwhere they've got lots of clients
to support todaywith the legacy technology
they do want to shift across,but it's hard for them.
And so what I would love to say to themis that, you know,
there's opportunities here to partnerwith Start-Ups like ourselves.
You don't have to look after that 1.7million clients in this space on your own.
(16:37):
We can we can help you in a fight as well.
So, you know, we can help transitionthat ecosystem from that
responsive system to a productive systemif we work together.
Thank you, Tanya.
They start hearts and minds and shiftingHector to reflect on this as well,
because you obviously have
gone in there and donesome got some commissioned contracts
(16:58):
and maybe you've overcomesome of those challenges
. Yeah, Darren, what you're sayingabout staying positive really resonates.
And I think that just generally it's mucheasier if you just know from the start
that this is a very long term gameand everyone's playing a long term game
and you know,it doesn't take three months or six months
(17:19):
to get into the market,but it takes a year or more.
So when we started,we got a couple of council contracts
and very early wins and that was largelybecause of the pandemic
and our solution was directly supportingpeople because of that.
So council's in that specific momentfor this specific
(17:40):
use case moved very, very quickly.
Now since then we started to look aroundat how the actual market works and
and how the ecosystem works and who'sbuying from who and who's trusted.
And we recognised that, yes,one thing is selling directly
to commissioners and that's somethingwe spend a lot of time doing.
(18:00):
But I would also recommend having a lookat the other players in the space
and perhaps designing solutionsfor those larger players because
as Darren just said.
Everyone wants to innovate in this spaceand everyone sees the potential.
And actually well,what I've seen directly is
there's been a lot of the inertiafrom innovation
(18:23):
is potentially because of, you know,
just workflows that have been set in stonefor 20 or 30 years.
It's not from ambitions of the seniorpeople within those organisations
nor actually anyone you knowin those organisations.
Everyone sees all the solutionsthat are on the market and says, Yeah,
we'd love to use them,but there's just quite a lot of hurdles
and red tape is red tape necessary,but there's also a lot of red tape
(18:47):
that needs to be solved
before things are used at scale.
So I highly recommendtalking to the other players in the market
and promoting the fact that you have openAPIs, promoting the fact
that you are looking at models that worknot just in the UK
but across Europeand drawing from those other experiences.
(19:09):
And we asked ourselves a questionright at the beginning of the process,
which is how do you identifyunmet needs in a community?
And we built the platformto directly do that.
And then behold, in Spain, banksand banks,
of course, and operators are making humanoutbound calls and it vast scale, whereas
(19:30):
5% of calls in the UK are outboundin in Spain there's like 80% are outbound.
So maybe looking at other markets
which are further aheadin terms of the proactive or preventative
agenda is an alsois also a thing to look at as a starter.
Yes, certainly that red tape came up againin our consultation,
(19:50):
not just from a Start-Up perspectivein terms of the frustration,
but even commissioners of servicesfinding.
So we've been locked into five yearcommissioning processes
and not being able to take opportunities
that come up in the middle of that,you know, to see Divergent.
And what they do, you know, is a pilot,it's small scale.
And then how do you scale that?
How do you spread thatand you make it sustainable?
(20:12):
And that's been quite difficult.
Some of the big players that are biddingfor these five year contracts
are now including things like marketplaceswithin those bids.
So they're also looking to adoptinnovative solutions.
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
And so what you touched on with
was the COVID 19pandemic is being a bit of a facilitator.
(20:35):
I wondered if and we recordeda separate podcast on all the changes
the pandemic brought in terms of careand technology.
And there were examples, you know, thingsthat were thought impossible
that suddenly became possible
during the pandemic,like NHS mail for care providers.
That's been a stumbling block for years.
(20:55):
And suddenly,you know, it's it's happened.
And commissioners shifting to new models,
they just had to get up and go with.
And I just wondered, is Darren,you got to reflect on anything
you think is as a said that they saymaybe it's not the pandemic
with these other thingslike funding that helped with COVID.
I'm not sure it'smessage of an innovation.
(21:16):
I think it's driven catch up.
So lots of stuffwe should have been doing before
that we weren'tand everybody kind of knew that.
And that's great because I think it's isbrought us to where we need to be
to actually then build on top of thatwith with innovative approaches.
Specifically,we saw a drive from some stuff
we do in remote video consultationsfor the community nurses.
We support the mental healthpractitioners.
(21:37):
That was it was a great shiftand actually I think helped a lot patients
that maybe shouldn'thave been travelling in for consultations,
which they could have doneremote it with Bridget.
I think for us the very positive thinghas been that there is funding out there
for innovation that's looking to tacklethe social care crisis.
So we were really lucky in thatwe got £100,000
(22:00):
a year funding early last yearto prove our concept
that we could empower family carersand and save the social care system.
And then based on the efficacy studyfor that,
we got nearly £1,000,000 of supportto help us grow that, grow
that same and very shiftfrom a team of three people in tiny room
to a team of 15people sat in a slightly bigger room
(22:22):
and really trying to wrap our armsaround those family carers and help
grow what we do.
So this funding thatthrough the innovation piece,
although you know it takes time.
So you're looking at six monthsto kind of go
through those grant processesand get award if you're successful.
The bit that we're still struggling onis what comes next.
So great. You've got a product.
(22:42):
You've proven that it can deliver value.
You've proven that you can do it in a waywhich doesn't impact the existing health
and social care teams.
What next?
Where does that broader funding come fromto help you drive and scale the solution?
And as a business,that's kind of where we're at.
So, you know,
do we continue our journey in the UKor do we actually look outside UK now
(23:03):
because maybe that fundingis not in our home country?
I know the challenges now as a businesswe're looking at, you know,
how do we scale?
Do we stay here?
Do we go elsewhere or do we do both?
Does the funding to grow the businesscome from customers
or do you have to belooking elsewhere for that?
I mean, for us, we've kindof looked at lots of different models.
So you're looking at councilcommissioning.
(23:25):
The shift to the integrated care systemswould be perfect for what we do.
So we're all about empoweringfamily carers across the region.
But the funding is not there in theyes is yet full for that type of service.
So then we've looked at home careproviders,
you know,they're quite small in terms of the scale
so that and say, you know,really get on board one of the franchises
(23:45):
but and also for usis about that direct to consumer approach.
So we do support directly family carersacross the UK with our services as well.
FundingI think is a blessing, but so there's also
challenges around this, the sustainabilityand when that funding ends and
we have seen
a boom in funding in some areas, you know,there are lots of
(24:05):
they're all schemes for collaborationswith academics.
They're asking, you know, someof the organisations I spoke to as we see
European funding, which obviously isnot on the table anymore and it's
where do you lookand where do you find it?
How do you stay abreast of all of that?
Neil,I wondered if you had had any thoughts
on the things that which facilitated you.
I know you beganwhat you launched during the pandemic.
(24:28):
Yeah. I mean, funding is always a problem.
And we looked at
the kind of grants availableand I think the other guys who donate
have a kind of more, let's say, you know ,a clearer proposition for those grants.
They fit more neatly into those,I think, than us.
We were slightly, you know, a bit.
It's an unusual case and we did get EUfunding for our pilots in Cornwall,
(24:49):
but that although we're grateful for it,the administration was just on me
and we had to match fund it.
So actually because they paid most of itlate after you filled in all the forms,
I actually it created more cashflowstress for me
and we looked at other of grants,but they tend to be, you know,
you have to kind of move at the speedthey're moving.
(25:10):
And we were moving quite quickly.
So we have about 25,000.
Abuses.
And we're in Australia and Irelandand will be in America later in the year.
And it's I mean, the growth is a problem.
It's a big problemtrying to keep up with it.
But we just feel likewe can't cut a grant funding
and we've been fundedprimarily by customers, pre-pay
(25:32):
for an annual contract,and that's what's fed us.
But, you know, you're always thenfretting about the next sale.
And of course,
I'm sure the guys would agree.
You know, you as a CEO, you're constantlytrying to side with limited resources.
We've only had £200,000worth of funding is like what?
Where do we where do we put this money?
And most of it goes into debt and then,oh, no, wait, we need customer success
(25:53):
because we have to supportour customers too.
And all we didn't do anything with sales.
And then,
you know, I'm doing all the invoicingin the evening and doing all the payroll
and no would be nice to have a financeperson.
So so it's just been
really difficult
when you get up to scaletalking to bigger providers.
And we found this particularly in
in Australiawhere it's a much more consolidated market
(26:14):
where they they said there's a 200 pagesecurity document.
Could you fill that in ISO 2000and whatever it is and who owns
you last penetration test.
And we want the server in Sydneyand you know at this architectural cost.
So I have a rulenow that anyone comes near me,
just give me an invoice for five grand.
That seems to be everything that we got.
(26:36):
So yeah, I mean we're interested in whatthe other guys feel, but it's, it's
trying to scale somethingand all of the costs that come with that
and all of that
with a small team, you can'tI've got about the same number of staff
as Darren, excluding our outsourcedev team, and there's still people
to do critical parts of the job.
Neil, do you paint?
(26:56):
You know it's hard, right?
Even 20 different thingsand not doing them all that well
because you're doing 20 different things.
But the funding side, I think that'ssomething people should be aware of that
that the amount of time it takes to getwhat we call innovation funding.
Now I kind of look some of the xa2and but for example this week
there's an eye care ward so it's kind of750 K plus, which is great.
(27:20):
But you submit your application today,
you go for processand you might get funded in May next year.
So that's the kind of conversationsyou have with the team that that's
that's the one way to get the funding.
And, you know, as a staff,who knows what you're going to be doing in
eight months time?
Because, you know, eight months ago
we were doing a lots of stuffthat we're not doing today,
(27:40):
and today we're doing lots that we weren'tdoing then.
So stuff changes and, and it's hard
I guess for these organisationslike NHS X, so we only have
very accelerated approval cycleson what is quite large chunks of cash.
Yeah, some of the start-ups I spoke to
thosethat are lagging in getting the funding.
But then there's also the match
funding issue that Neil talks about isis quite prevalent model.
(28:02):
And then the fact that you get paidthe quarter after you've made
the expense,you pay the expenses, then you have to
be able to do it really and
probably in quite challenging leanand small organisations.
If did you want to come in and about
some of this sort of capturingbenefits and impact
(28:23):
and how how we make that persuasive caseand capture hearts and minds really?
In terms of benefits realisation,
how are you able to demonstrate the impactof your solutions on both outcomes
for individuals, the care professionaland for the services you support?
So your career is very simply a way in
(28:44):
which providers can understandsomeone's needs.
And therefore, we're really like a dataand we're like a data engagement product.
So when we boil it right down,what does it do?
It reaches out to a large number of people
and collects data about those individuals.
And the data we're collecting is thingslike has someone taking the medication
(29:05):
or whether the someone's happywith the service
that they're monitoringcentre is provided, etc..
And so from the outsetwe have a huge amount of data,
not just about the service usersthat we're, we're speaking with,
but also about the effectiveness,the efficacy of the technology itself.
And we very much lead everysingle conversation with those numbers
(29:28):
because, yeah, we really focus onwhat those outcomes are.
And yeah, we have some nice case studiesin terms of like the individual stories,
but really we preferto look at the numbers in aggregate
and start to say,
okay, this is the number of peoplethat you were speaking to prior
to using your crew and this is the numberof needs identified, etc.
(29:50):
And we very openly sharea lot of that information.
I think that has really helpedwith our relationships with our customers
because it allowsus to be very transparent
and then to be very transparent
with why they would be using this typeof technology and critically.
Everyone is
very focussed, it seems, on an hour away.
(30:10):
And so not only can we show in our wayin terms of, you know, pounds saved,
but we can also show in ROI in termsof number of unmet needs identified.
So that was what I was going to ask.
Do different parts of your consumers,your your clients,
all the different storiesyou need to tell them,
all the different waysof measuring that return on investment
(30:32):
that are more persuasiveto different groups,
to commissioning somethingslightly different from a different
group of peoplethat you might be selling to.
Yeah, I guess so.
And I the this kind of linksinto our previous conversation
just about funding as well,which is with, with both of these
we're building as a start-upa tool that solves a problem.
(30:55):
And the more specific and nichethat problem is, the easier
it is to say this is the percentageoutcome of using the tool.
These arethe numbers related to using the tool.
And so when it comes to fundraisingor trying to get grants, etc.,
when you get really, really nichewith the problem that you're solving,
suddenly it becomes very clear to people,Oh, this is a tool that can help
(31:16):
in this case because these arethe outcomes from using the tool.
So I think for all I've seen
in our journey, when we go very broadand we start to do many things,
it becomes very hard to expresswhat we're doing.
But when we get right downand get very niche, it's easier to secure
funding and it's easier to fundamentally,I guess, sell the product
because people can get the productsand they understand
(31:39):
this is the problem that I haveand this is the tool that will solve it.
Darren, do you want to
come in with any comments on the benefitsrealisation please.
Yeah.
I justjust become an exit point there on our
I think you know when I used to workon the NHS commissioning side
I think we kind of joked that
if every solutionthat we got at the way that it proposed,
(32:00):
then we wouldn't actually have to payfor the NHS anymore.
It'd be free.
And you know, every case studywe put together a business case,
the NHS always has, you know, a
significant role in which those,those things don't always materialise.
And for us, you know,it is important to IPR
why you need thatfor the commissioning discussion.
But really we're about three things.
So can we improve the lives of the carersthat we support
(32:24):
and can we improve the carethat they provide to their loved ones?
And in doing so,can we save the health system
that they're the free kind of big ticketitems we're looking at
and we build a social return on investmentmodel for that as well as as an art
away model because we're foremosta social enterprise.
So for us, the social sides, as importantas the the business side
(32:45):
vary in termsof what we're trying to achieve.
And when you look into that,
you know, we've had quite useful supportin on that journey.
So we've been lucky to have those grantsto cover off support from academic health
science networks, research partnersand your university
whole universe to bring in those guysto basically do a job, which is is tricky.
(33:07):
It's hard trying to look at a systemand say, did we actually deliver a benefit
in what we did?
And and when you look at prevention,
it's harder than ever because what I dotoday, you know, go for a walk outside,
may help me in four years down the line,
you know,but it's not going to help me next week.
And that's the tricky bitwith our way models.
(33:27):
When you look at prevention
rather than kind of emergencyresponse of systems that we've gone
the O'Meara way point, we are trying
to promotea more proactive delivery of care.
And so we look at places like Spainand they have a very proactive delivery,
proactive care delivery model.
And so then I'm thinking, okay, let's get,let's get hold of some research
(33:49):
that proves all of this.
And fundamentally, there isn't that muchresearch out there, especially in the UK.
There's been almost no research doneinto what the actual ROI is
of delivering a more proactive modeland more funds to model.
I know that the TSA is working on thisa lot with us
and trying to pull togetherresearch partners, etc.
(34:09):
but I haven't seen very much of itby way of like hard numbers
into the actual realisedbenefits over say a medium term
across perhaps a large cohort of people
into the real benefitsof this type of model, although is being
what is being adopted more and moreand I think conceptually everyone
(34:29):
sort of gets it. Yeah,I think that is true.
That is it
has been a challenge that whole preventionpiece for the reasons that Darren says.
How do you say with any certaintythat it's prevented?
Why and something that the commissionswe spoke to found that
sort of expressed waseven if they could prove prevention,
that might be preventionthat the health service.
(34:51):
And that's a separate budget,a separate system.
So, you know, so very siloed approachdidn't really help them in that case.
And Nate, would you want to talk a bitabout how you capture
the outcomes of what you do?
Yeah, so it's I see, really,
I mean, I'm
probably in a much better positionthan the other guys in terms of that.
It's very measurablebecause we're just hiring people.
(35:13):
Now, what we've had to educatethe market on is that
is that candidates and new hiresare not equal in the care world.
So so typically a careprovider is someone,
you know, addicted to into the job boards.
And they and it seems very easyand they hire people.
And the average length of time they stayat 2 hours of care delivered is 180.
(35:35):
And whereas employeereferrals over 4000 hours of care
before they leaveor for whatever happened.
So, so
measuring cost per you might sayoh well my add on indeed is free,
which increasingly is not the case,but those people don't stay.
If in our model the costs, if you like,are made up of two components,
the licence fee is dividedby that each individual hire.
(35:58):
So there's a lot annual licence fee
and also they're paying the pointsor the referral reward
to their member of staffand obviously that's
going to their member of staff,which is a great place for it to go
rather than into a job boardor third party recruitment company.
But nonetheless,we carry two components of cost.
And so we need to demonstratethat we by using the act,
(36:19):
we are the deltabetween what they had before and what we
what we deliver is significant enoughfor for those costs to be carried.
And in most cases it is.
In almost all cases it is.
And also the dashboardis measuring all of this life.
We know the moment someone is hired,and that has been a huge relief
to have a dashboard with life data onand that's always been a huge.
(36:42):
For the whole sector is workforcedata is so hard
to get from providers to tell youwhat's going on.
So we've got some advantages.
Although, you know, in the current crisis,the workforce crisis, then
providers are so kind of
struggling, panicking with, with,with recruitment that, you know, to launch
(37:03):
care friends does require some forwardthinking and a change in behaviour.
And, and so some are taking that,taking that step and others of us aren't.
But we, you know, fundamentally,one of the kind of measures
that my favourite measures
in terms of our success ishow much money are going into the pockets
of care workers through throughperformance, through becoming recruiters.
(37:26):
And as of right now,since we launched last year,
£850,000, and I think that's moneythey wouldn't have got.
And so that is a messagethat, you know, will bring other care
workers on board because they feelthey're part of a system that's growing.
And I think it's it's getting thatword out to everybody that's going to help
because providers will feel like,oh, you know,
(37:48):
you get to a point where they'll
they'll say, everyone else is doing thisand I should, too.
But to get something intothe mainstream is incredibly hard.
And I heard a great analogy,which I'm sure the guys will, will, will
resonate with them as well, is that,you know, a start up like
this is like a massive freight trainin the station with a mini engine
and you're screaming the mini engineas much as you can to get some movement.
(38:09):
And eventually you start getting movement.
And once you get momentum, life gets a loteasier because it can't be stopped.
But trying to get going is the thing.
Yeah,I can see that in the sector that is so
so under
such pressure that the idea of what youryour product can do is around
not just the recruitment,but around the retention,
(38:29):
which is the big challenge in the sector,the churn, the waste of,
you know, retraining and retraining peoplebecause they move organisations
like friends potentially has a meansto address that because people.
You know, recruit their friendswho they know are like minded
people and they will probably stay longerwithin the organisation.
(38:51):
But it's persuading
those organisations that are undergoingpressure that they need to do this.
And you know,you know, it's a few more clicks
or it's, you know, it's another thingfor them to do, which I think , yeah,
it must be very, very challenging.
Well, thank you all for joining us today.
I'd just like to go back roundand just see
if you've got any key messages or thoughtsfor other start-ups in the sector
(39:12):
or the marketplace reallyyou want to be selling to.
So I'll start with Hector.
Yeah. Thanks, Kate.
I have a couple of things to sayto Start-Ups who are in this space.
First of all, align yourselfwith organisations like AIDS and the TSA
and Tax Advisory and begin to buildthose networks as early as possible.
(39:34):
Because not only are theya great way to bounce ideas
off, but they're also a good wayto get access
to potential customersor potential collaborators.
And it's a very easy early thing to do
and I know those organisationsare actively reaching out all the time
to start-ups, so they might fund youin the same way that the TSA called us up.
(39:59):
But I do recommend doing that.
And also I, as I've alluded to already,
I recommend just getting very nichewith the problem that you're solving
and trying to thinkas as specific as possible
because then people get it and thenit makes the whole process much easier.
And later on down the line, when as Neal's
steam engine is rolling at full speed,
(40:21):
when that's going,then you can start doing
lots of other things and buildinglots of other tools.
But first of all, just startsmall and start niche.
Thank you, Hector.
Darren, did you want to summarise?
Yeah, it's great.
And it's great to listen to Nealand Hector as well.
So thanks, guys.
And it's helped me todayactually being on the podcast.
And I think one of the things we say toour Kara community is you're not alone.
(40:43):
And I think that forStobbs, we need to remember that as well.
We're a collective of peopletrying to innovate and make a difference.
And if anybody wants wantsone spot for me, kick ideas around
or shake ideas down or whatever,and feel free to get in touch.
I think to Hector's point there, you know,starting small and specific is great.
(41:04):
And I think the other thing behind Stopis just find your story.
So what is itthat brought you to the point
where you decidedto come up with this idea?
And why do you feel you're the person
that's going to be ableto make that a reality?
Because if you've got that,then you've got a Start-Up.
And that's one of the hardest thingsin finding story, finding
what makes you special.
Thank you, Darren.
(41:24):
And that's certainly somethingwe found on this programme of work.
So I work on the technology pieceby also work on
another piece of workis looking at emerging home care models
and it is that storyso many of these Start-Up innovators
or people who have experiencedfrustrations with the existing system
and want to change things,they have a very clear story and a very
(41:46):
personalexperience, and that is what drives them.
That's what gives that locomotive that
little push, I think.
Neal Yeah, thanks.
And it's I would echo Darren's pointthat just, just hearing Darren Hector's
experiences is it makes it helps mebecause it's a very lonely thing.
I mean, certainly during the COVID periodwhere we've all been kind of feeling
(42:09):
my whole team is separatedor working from home,
trying to learn the job of a CEO,which keeps changing
and trying to keep up witheverything has been really difficult.
So networks are really, really helpful.
And I think there's a narrativeabout entrepreneurs
and how successful it all isand how easy it is.
And of course, that's
the focus on the very few, you know, thathave that become unicorns.
(42:32):
And there's so much othergreat work going on and I think we don't
hear about that.
And so it's greatto share some of the challenges
even if you don't get them sold.
But talking to to guys like Darren Hector,I find other CEOs.
They'd say, Oh, don't do this or try that.
And you save yourself so much time.
Just,you know, people are so willing to give.
And I thinkprobably the reason I work in adult
(42:54):
social care is it's ait's a very giving sector anyway.
And I think talking to peoplewho are trying to make things better
has been really, really helpful.
I think in terms of advice,if I give any to people starting out
on this journey, I mean, I think like yousaid, it's a long journey and we
I realised we incorporated the companyby incorporated the company
(43:14):
three years ago last Fridayand reflected on the journey so far.
And I think there's an area where I didquite well by putting a lot of effort
into the user interface and into the userexperience around the app.
And the app was used by care workersand I didn't want to make assumptions.
So, so I think the more you can do aroundthe human
(43:37):
technical technological interfaceis so, so important
because that that drives a lot of adoptionif people find it easy to use.
And so the more testing
you can do as early as possible,I would say it's really important.
So we did
I thought really well on the on the appside, what I completely forgot was
we have a whole admin portalwhich needs to be used by recruiters
(43:58):
and I just thought I would just check somebuttons in there and some other stuff.
And of course they werethe ones that were non-compliant.
And then of coursethat brings the whole system down.
How could I have missed that?
So it's looking at theall of your stakeholders and anyone
coming into contact with the system andI think you could use a design interface.
Design is know shouldn't be expensive,but the more effort you put into that,
(44:21):
things get a lot, lot easier.
And it also helps you think abouta simple, simple pathway, user pathway.
So that's beenone of my biggest learnings.
Thank you.
That's a really great point.
Amit,do you have anything you would like to add
in terms of tips and advice for start ups?
Only that, you know,if we're looking at our procurement
(44:43):
options, commissioners are really wantingto see evidence of flexibility
and lots of routes to market.
So if you want a framework in particular,do shout about that in your ad marketing,
whether that's through a case studyor any other marketing asset.
So when you're creatingmarketing materials,
whether that be a case study or blog,
(45:05):
do write specifically for your audience.
Really the persona driven.
Don't feel that you have to sort of nailall your messaging
in one piece of communications.
Don't be afraid to write several casestudies or with sign up adaptations,
and you wouldn't go for a job interviewand send that same CV to ten employees.
(45:25):
You would always adapt it.
And it's the same with product marketing,
so that just seems like an obvious point,but it will be seen as quite key point.
Well, thank you all for joining me.
Say thank you to Hector and Darrenand Neal
and EIF for co-hosting with me today.
We hope to join you for the next of Alland podcast, which is looking at the
(45:48):
digital switchover and its implicationsfor technology and care.
Thank you.
The Digital
Futures Podcast series is a collaborationbetween The Sustainable Care
Research Programme, funded by the Economicand Social Research Council
and the Technology Enabled CareStrategy Board,
(TSA) The Industry and advisory bodyfor the UK tech sector.
For each podcast,we invite expert guests to explore with us
the challenges and opportunitiestechnology can bring to care and caring
(00:32):
. Hello and welcometo the Second of our Sustainable Care
Programme and Tech ServicesAssociation Podcasts today.
Myselfand my co-host Eve Solomon from the TSA
are going to be talking toand about start-ups and innovators
and the challenges and opportunitiesthey face in the care sector.
And we're going to reflectfirst on some of our experiences,
(00:54):
both from the research sideand also from the TSA perspective.
So as part of the Sustainable
Care Programme,we did a series of stakeholder engagement
consultations where we spoke to variousdifferent actors in the care ecosystem,
including commissioners of servicesand people in the technology
enabled care sector , people in the caretechnology sector,
(01:17):
care providers, people receiving
support and services, unpaid carersto try and explore
the sorts of issues that they were facingaround technology and care.
And something that kept coming upwas the increasingly confusing technology
and care marketplaceand being able to navigate this and
(01:38):
tease out what different providers,what different technology
could could be beneficialfor all these different stakeholders.
Commissioners were finding it challenging.
They were finding it difficult
to perhaps take a chance on newerand smaller organisations
and move away from seeing themwith traditional tech providers.
(01:58):
And there were also issues with some careproviders who were finding it difficult
to include technology in their services,and it's increasing a requirement
to include some sort of technologyin their in their services,
both from a commissioning perspective,but also the expectations of service
users as well.
And there were also challengesfrom those needing care and support
(02:20):
to try and navigate this marketplaceif self-funding.
And part of the challengewas the increasing number of start-ups
and concerns about longevityand the ability for those organisations
to scale up and continue to provideexcellent customer service.
But we also spoke to Start-Upsand they were finding it really hard.
They were finding it hard to get backand make their way in this marketplace
(02:42):
to convince commissioners of serviceswho might be slightly risk averse, to to
try and convince them to go beyond a pilotand to invest, invest in scale, really.
So those were some of the thingsthat we found, you know, in our research.
And I wonder if you want to come inand talk really about the TSA
experienceof working with start-ups and innovators.
(03:04):
I think
for innovators and start-ups,they would really benefit
from truly putting themselvesinto the shoes of commissioners.
You know, what is itthat's keeping them up at night?
Commissioners are being presentedwith a huge plethora
of different technology solutions.
And it's how do they choose which one?
(03:24):
So it's it's absolutely criticalthat innovators are clearly demonstrating.
What sets them apart from competition.
How are they future proofing that product?
Yes, there'sa lot of innovation in the sector,
but are they futureproofing their technology?
Will they still be the product of choicein two years, three years time?
(03:46):
Commissioners are becomingalso increasingly wise to
collaborative approaches.
So the days of creating somethingin a sort of
siloed bubble are firmly over now.
So it's how can you demonstrate that that
that your product is open protocolthat you've considered
how it fits into the overall servicewraparound from beginning to end.
(04:09):
So how does your product solvejust one problem or does it solve four?
Are you in conversationswith with services
and how does it fit into that?
It's also criticalthat innovators are considering
how their product feedsinto the proactive and preventative
(04:30):
agenda,and even more so, the personalisation.
We now have a situationwhere health, housing and social care all
is a commonality of languagebeing used now, which is fantastic.
It's something we've been working towardsfor a while, and it's an agenda
that we're going to be really,
TSA significantly going to be running withfor the next 12 months.
So in order to really be relevant,
(04:53):
it's about demonstratinghow your product sort of feeds into that.
What are you doing to demonstrate that?
And again,that we see an increased commitment
to working in an interoperable way.
You know, what are you doing to putput that in place as well?
And I think the key point is
creating productthat can show the mark of quality.
(05:14):
So a commissioner is going to be concernedabout whether that product is safe
for the service user and it's safealso for the health professional
that's using it.
And suppliers would be missing a trick
if they didn't produce a productthat was very much
embedded in a quality frameworkfrom the get go.
(05:38):
There's a lot of talk about innovation,but that doesn't
seem to be quite as much talkabout trust and confidence.
And I think when you'redealing in a sector that is about people
and keeping people safe,this is an absolute key point,
not only in its production values,but also in the key messages
that the suppliersare trying to get out in their marketing.
(06:00):
You know, is your product trustworthy?
Can the commissionerhave confidence in it?
And I think that is a real key pointthat's overlooked.
TSA Quality Standard Framework
is now being positioned alongside C QC
and even the NHS internal audit programme.
We've seen evidence of this in Liverpool
(06:23):
and this is only goingto become more apparent.
So suppliers would be reallymissing a trick if they didn't consider
quality as a real sort of benchmarkin the production of their product.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think it's also the safety
of people,which is is obviously paramount,
the data as welland how it flows with some of the systems
(06:44):
that are being introducedand who owns that data?
How is it stored? Is it is it safe? Well,thank you.
I think we can now welcome our guests.
So I'm delighted todayto welcome three quite different start-ups
in the technology enabled care servicesand care technology sector
who all have a slightly different approachto technology in the care ecosystem.
(07:05):
They have slightly different focus,slightly different models,
and I just want to
introduce them all to you nowand then talk through their experiences.
So first, I'd like to welcome HectorAlexander from Yokeru;
who you don't mind telling us a little bitabout yourself and about Yokeru do?
Thanks very much. Nice to meet you.
(07:27):
So my brotherand I found a joker about a year ago,
and we saw it as a move towardsbeing more proactive and more preventative
in the delivery of care.
And we realised thateveryone has a home phone at home.
It's the most digitally inclusiveplatform.
Memberspick up the phone and speak to someone.
So we built a platformthat allows one human operator
(07:48):
to speak to 10,000 service users in halfan hour and check on their wellbeing.
And so we've been working with careproviders, local authorities
and monitoring centres to to help themsupport their communities better.
Thank you, Hector.
That's so interesting.
And it chimes in with another causewe've done, which is a proactive
(08:09):
and preventative approach to technologywhich.
As we've seen in other parts of the world.
It's very famously in Barcelona,but it's something that in the UK we're
only really,
I think, moving towardsinstead of the sort of very reactive
traditional systems which jump in inan emergency rather than of
they're trying to prevent an emergencyfrom happening in the first place.
(08:30):
Thank you.
And I'd also like to welcome DarrenCrombie from Bridget Care.
Hi, Darren.
Can you talktell us a little bit about what you do.
Yeah, thanks, Kate.
And I think it really kind of links inwe will act with say in there
that you know as an organisation Bridgetcare we're looking to really support
family carers and help them to deliverpreventative care to their loved ones.
(08:52):
So my, my name's Diane Crombieand she's myself at the start
and I'm the founder of Bridget Careand my background
was really working in the healthand care system for about 20 years
with commissionersand really big health integrators.
And what we really sawis that a lot of the traditional support
we were putting in wasn't really working,it wasn't changing outcomes.
And we kept investing in technologyfor doctors and nurses, which
(09:17):
was was great to treat sick patients,but not very good for prevention.
So through that journey, we really learntthat, that this is a massive army
out there of sevenand a half million family carers in the UK
who do an amazing job like meand my sister look up my grandad
and to keep the loved oneswell and out of high cost care.
So what we've been buildingis a platform for them.
(09:38):
So we've built a set of highmonitoring products
that help them find accessible toolsfor looking after Grandad.
We've got an app for the care themselvesand we've launched a camera shop as well
because we recognise it's really hardas carers funds what you need.
So we've got personalised care show,we can go in and find
the products out there for youbased on your needs and get help today.
(10:01):
Thank you dear.
And that was
that was the thing that really came upin our findings, this sort of difficulty
that carers who are really strugglingwith a lack of time
because they're balancing often workand other responsibilities
with care in finding information, supportand advice
from someone they can trust and somewherethat is sort of impartial.
So that's really helpful. Thank you.
(10:23):
Neil Eastwood from CareFriends has a slightly different focus
and I think it's really greatthat we've got quite a different range
of different staff
today with different focuson different parts of the care system.
And I'd just like you to introducecare reference really
because I think it'sreally fascinating organisation.
No thanks. It's
yes. So this is
(10:43):
focussed entirely on the workforceand it's a problem I've been trying
to solve for about 13 yearsand that is how do we recruit and retain
, you know, an effective, high qualityprofessional workforce
and years and years of researchpointing me all the time to something
obvious that I it took me a long time toto Penny to finally drop.
And that is that the mechanismof finding the highest quality
(11:07):
longerstaying care staff is employee referral.
And then I looked at an employeereferral scheme and it's just clunky and,
you know, tall post somewhereand the care staff forget.
And I wondered if we can gamify,if we can remove the friction from that
by giving an app to care workersand rewarding them with points.
And the point is a poundfor different stages.
(11:29):
As their friend moves throughthe recruitment process, they get rewards.
Can that change?
Can that remove the friction?
And if so, how many people out thereare possibly available to be recruited?
And that's the journeywe're going on with conference.
Thank you.
So yeah, we've got some really interestingstart-ups
all focussing on different partsof that carry through system to challenges
(11:51):
the workforce challenge,the unpaid carer challenge
and how we support themto do such an important job
shifting servicesto prevention rather than reaction.
I'd like to talk to you.
I don't want to be pessimistic.
Let's talk about the challenges you faced,the start-ups in working in this space.
Maybe I'll start with with Neil firstthis time.
(12:12):
Guinness.
Yeah, I'll try and keep it brief.
So I think the I mean, perhapsunlike some start ups, I've been,
you know, I understand the sector deeply,so that wasn't an issue.
On navigating that worldThe challenge has been primarily
building on which we we didn't have a
I didn't have a technical co-founder,so we were always on the back foot.
(12:34):
I outsourced the tech developmentand that has been fraught,
continues to be fraught,and then trying to understand
how to get thisinto a very fragmented sector.
So we we sought to use kind of friendsthe you need the care
staff to be told about itand to be excited to download the app,
you need a recruiter to operate itand as soon as a candidate comes in,
(12:56):
they have to do something about itpromptly.
And you need the manageror the owner of the business
or senior managementor the directors to be on site too.
So we had key stakeholderswe needed to involve
and we launched in June 2020,
so kind of mid to peaks of COVID.
And so it was a really difficultenvironment
to launch into with a lot of distractionand, you know,
(13:19):
kind of panic and care businessesnot really coping with planning ahead.
They were very much more reactive
to, you know,all of the things that were going on.
So so I think that maybewas a situational issue.
But we do find that
the we need to register managerto read to be aware of this and often
as a demographic cohort tend to be olderfemales who their whole life
(13:42):
has been about removing riskand taking a risk.
And technology is something that can bedifficult for them to understand.
So we see with the app's huge
successes, but also disappointmentsand it's the same platform.
So the questionthen is it's down to a co-production
between us and, you know,the individual care organisation.
(14:04):
And often the smaller ones are the onesthat don't have the resources
in order to deal with,you know, if we deliver a high quality
candidate is recommended by a friend,20% of them are never even contacted.
So we know our technology has to gofurther to do more nudges, more reminders.
So, yeah, it's a it's a journeythat's really interesting.
I hope by any piece and yeah,you say the sort of frictionless,
(14:26):
but also the nudge doesn'ttip over to being
too obtrusive but at the same timegets people to action something.
Thank you, Darren.
Do you want to reflect onwhat challenges you faced as a Start-Up?
Yeah.
So firstly, just want to say any thought,listen to this.
Be optimistic, be positive.
There is so much opportunityto change this space and change the world.
(14:48):
So, you know, give it a go.
But with that recognise it's going to bepainful, it's going to be hard,
you know, lots of sleepless nightsrunning a stall because,
you know, things that are worthwhileare hard to achieve.
And in this space, the big free challengesfor many years is, well, funding.
We'll talk more about thatin a minute to responsibility.
(15:09):
So when I mean responsibility,I mean that the councils today
are not responsiblefor preventative care delivery.
So when we speak to a counciland we talk about the amazing jobs
that family carers doand how they can deliver a really shift
to preventative care, they say, great,look, the efficacy studies
where we can say we can deliver 14 to allbut say actually that's not my job.
(15:32):
So my job in adult social care servicestoday is the commission a service
that basically responds when somebody pushthe button is not to deliver
a service that stops somebody from needingto push that button in the first place.
So for me and so we actually shiftthat responsibility
and make that an obligation and councilsto be responsive, preventative care
(15:52):
or recognise the severe organisationsand challenge charges out there
in the voluntary sector.
They're doing that today thenwe're not going to be able to really shift
what we do and will stay in the spacewhere we are trial to trial,
but we don't have broader adoptionof those newer technologies.
Now I think the last one for meis the ecosystem.
So we know who the big players are andI've been up for dinner with some of them.
(16:15):
And, you know, I get where those guys are.
You know, they're in a tricky positionwhere they've got lots of clients
to support todaywith the legacy technology
they do want to shift across,but it's hard for them.
And so what I would love to say to themis that, you know,
there's opportunities here to partnerwith Start-Ups like ourselves.
You don't have to look after that 1.7million clients in this space on your own.
(16:37):
We can we can help you in a fight as well.
So, you know, we can help transitionthat ecosystem from that
responsive system to a productive systemif we work together.
Thank you, Tanya.
They start hearts and minds and shiftingHector to reflect on this as well,
because you obviously have
gone in there and donesome got some commissioned contracts
(16:58):
and maybe you've overcomesome of those challenges
. Yeah, Darren, what you're sayingabout staying positive really resonates.
And I think that just generally it's mucheasier if you just know from the start
that this is a very long term gameand everyone's playing a long term game
and you know,it doesn't take three months or six months
(17:19):
to get into the market,but it takes a year or more.
So when we started,we got a couple of council contracts
and very early wins and that was largelybecause of the pandemic
and our solution was directly supportingpeople because of that.
So council's in that specific momentfor this specific
(17:40):
use case moved very, very quickly.
Now since then we started to look aroundat how the actual market works and
and how the ecosystem works and who'sbuying from who and who's trusted.
And we recognised that, yes,one thing is selling directly
to commissioners and that's somethingwe spend a lot of time doing.
(18:00):
But I would also recommend having a lookat the other players in the space
and perhaps designing solutionsfor those larger players because
as Darren just said.
Everyone wants to innovate in this spaceand everyone sees the potential.
And actually well,what I've seen directly is
there's been a lot of the inertiafrom innovation
(18:23):
is potentially because of, you know,
just workflows that have been set in stonefor 20 or 30 years.
It's not from ambitions of the seniorpeople within those organisations
nor actually anyone you knowin those organisations.
Everyone sees all the solutionsthat are on the market and says, Yeah,
we'd love to use them,but there's just quite a lot of hurdles
and red tape is red tape necessary,but there's also a lot of red tape
(18:47):
that needs to be solved
before things are used at scale.
So I highly recommendtalking to the other players in the market
and promoting the fact that you have openAPIs, promoting the fact
that you are looking at models that worknot just in the UK
but across Europeand drawing from those other experiences.
(19:09):
And we asked ourselves a questionright at the beginning of the process,
which is how do you identifyunmet needs in a community?
And we built the platformto directly do that.
And then behold, in Spain, banksand banks,
of course, and operators are making humanoutbound calls and it vast scale, whereas
(19:30):
5% of calls in the UK are outboundin in Spain there's like 80% are outbound.
So maybe looking at other markets
which are further aheadin terms of the proactive or preventative
agenda is an alsois also a thing to look at as a starter.
Yes, certainly that red tape came up againin our consultation,
(19:50):
not just from a Start-Up perspectivein terms of the frustration,
but even commissioners of servicesfinding.
So we've been locked into five yearcommissioning processes
and not being able to take opportunities
that come up in the middle of that,you know, to see Divergent.
And what they do, you know, is a pilot,it's small scale.
And then how do you scale that?
How do you spread thatand you make it sustainable?
(20:12):
And that's been quite difficult.
Some of the big players that are biddingfor these five year contracts
are now including things like marketplaceswithin those bids.
So they're also looking to adoptinnovative solutions.
Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely.
And so what you touched on with
was the COVID 19pandemic is being a bit of a facilitator.
(20:35):
I wondered if and we recordeda separate podcast on all the changes
the pandemic brought in terms of careand technology.
And there were examples, you know, thingsthat were thought impossible
that suddenly became possible
during the pandemic,like NHS mail for care providers.
That's been a stumbling block for years.
(20:55):
And suddenly,you know, it's it's happened.
And commissioners shifting to new models,
they just had to get up and go with.
And I just wondered, is Darren,you got to reflect on anything
you think is as a said that they saymaybe it's not the pandemic
with these other thingslike funding that helped with COVID.
I'm not sure it'smessage of an innovation.
(21:16):
I think it's driven catch up.
So lots of stuffwe should have been doing before
that we weren'tand everybody kind of knew that.
And that's great because I think it's isbrought us to where we need to be
to actually then build on top of thatwith with innovative approaches.
Specifically,we saw a drive from some stuff
we do in remote video consultationsfor the community nurses.
We support the mental healthpractitioners.
(21:37):
That was it was a great shiftand actually I think helped a lot patients
that maybe shouldn'thave been travelling in for consultations,
which they could have doneremote it with Bridget.
I think for us the very positive thinghas been that there is funding out there
for innovation that's looking to tacklethe social care crisis.
So we were really lucky in thatwe got £100,000
(22:00):
a year funding early last yearto prove our concept
that we could empower family carersand and save the social care system.
And then based on the efficacy studyfor that,
we got nearly £1,000,000 of supportto help us grow that, grow
that same and very shiftfrom a team of three people in tiny room
to a team of 15people sat in a slightly bigger room
(22:22):
and really trying to wrap our armsaround those family carers and help
grow what we do.
So this funding thatthrough the innovation piece,
although you know it takes time.
So you're looking at six monthsto kind of go
through those grant processesand get award if you're successful.
The bit that we're still struggling onis what comes next.
So great. You've got a product.
(22:42):
You've proven that it can deliver value.
You've proven that you can do it in a waywhich doesn't impact the existing health
and social care teams.
What next?
Where does that broader funding come fromto help you drive and scale the solution?
And as a business,that's kind of where we're at.
So, you know,
do we continue our journey in the UKor do we actually look outside UK now
(23:03):
because maybe that fundingis not in our home country?
I know the challenges now as a businesswe're looking at, you know,
how do we scale?
Do we stay here?
Do we go elsewhere or do we do both?
Does the funding to grow the businesscome from customers
or do you have to belooking elsewhere for that?
I mean, for us, we've kindof looked at lots of different models.
So you're looking at councilcommissioning.
(23:25):
The shift to the integrated care systemswould be perfect for what we do.
So we're all about empoweringfamily carers across the region.
But the funding is not there in theyes is yet full for that type of service.
So then we've looked at home careproviders,
you know,they're quite small in terms of the scale
so that and say, you know,really get on board one of the franchises
(23:45):
but and also for usis about that direct to consumer approach.
So we do support directly family carersacross the UK with our services as well.
FundingI think is a blessing, but so there's also
challenges around this, the sustainabilityand when that funding ends and
we have seen
a boom in funding in some areas, you know,there are lots of
(24:05):
they're all schemes for collaborationswith academics.
They're asking, you know, someof the organisations I spoke to as we see
European funding, which obviously isnot on the table anymore and it's
where do you lookand where do you find it?
How do you stay abreast of all of that?
Neil,I wondered if you had had any thoughts
on the things that which facilitated you.
I know you beganwhat you launched during the pandemic.
(24:28):
Yeah. I mean, funding is always a problem.
And we looked at
the kind of grants availableand I think the other guys who donate
have a kind of more, let's say, you know ,a clearer proposition for those grants.
They fit more neatly into those,I think, than us.
We were slightly, you know, a bit.
It's an unusual case and we did get EUfunding for our pilots in Cornwall,
(24:49):
but that although we're grateful for it,the administration was just on me
and we had to match fund it.
So actually because they paid most of itlate after you filled in all the forms,
I actually it created more cashflowstress for me
and we looked at other of grants,but they tend to be, you know,
you have to kind of move at the speedthey're moving.
(25:10):
And we were moving quite quickly.
So we have about 25,000.
Abuses.
And we're in Australia and Irelandand will be in America later in the year.
And it's I mean, the growth is a problem.
It's a big problemtrying to keep up with it.
But we just feel likewe can't cut a grant funding
and we've been fundedprimarily by customers, pre-pay
(25:32):
for an annual contract,and that's what's fed us.
But, you know, you're always thenfretting about the next sale.
And of course,
I'm sure the guys would agree.
You know, you as a CEO, you're constantlytrying to side with limited resources.
We've only had £200,000worth of funding is like what?
Where do we where do we put this money?
And most of it goes into debt and then,oh, no, wait, we need customer success
(25:53):
because we have to supportour customers too.
And all we didn't do anything with sales.
And then,
you know, I'm doing all the invoicingin the evening and doing all the payroll
and no would be nice to have a financeperson.
So so it's just been
really difficult
when you get up to scaletalking to bigger providers.
And we found this particularly in
in Australiawhere it's a much more consolidated market
(26:14):
where they they said there's a 200 pagesecurity document.
Could you fill that in ISO 2000and whatever it is and who owns
you last penetration test.
And we want the server in Sydneyand you know at this architectural cost.
So I have a rulenow that anyone comes near me,
just give me an invoice for five grand.
That seems to be everything that we got.
(26:36):
So yeah, I mean we're interested in whatthe other guys feel, but it's, it's
trying to scale somethingand all of the costs that come with that
and all of that
with a small team, you can'tI've got about the same number of staff
as Darren, excluding our outsourcedev team, and there's still people
to do critical parts of the job.
Neil, do you paint?
(26:56):
You know it's hard, right?
Even 20 different thingsand not doing them all that well
because you're doing 20 different things.
But the funding side, I think that'ssomething people should be aware of that
that the amount of time it takes to getwhat we call innovation funding.
Now I kind of look some of the xa2and but for example this week
there's an eye care ward so it's kind of750 K plus, which is great.
(27:20):
But you submit your application today,
you go for processand you might get funded in May next year.
So that's the kind of conversationsyou have with the team that that's
that's the one way to get the funding.
And, you know, as a staff,who knows what you're going to be doing in
eight months time?
Because, you know, eight months ago
we were doing a lots of stuffthat we're not doing today,
(27:40):
and today we're doing lots that we weren'tdoing then.
So stuff changes and, and it's hard
I guess for these organisationslike NHS X, so we only have
very accelerated approval cycleson what is quite large chunks of cash.
Yeah, some of the start-ups I spoke to
thosethat are lagging in getting the funding.
But then there's also the match
funding issue that Neil talks about isis quite prevalent model.
(28:02):
And then the fact that you get paidthe quarter after you've made
the expense,you pay the expenses, then you have to
be able to do it really and
probably in quite challenging leanand small organisations.
If did you want to come in and about
some of this sort of capturingbenefits and impact
(28:23):
and how how we make that persuasive caseand capture hearts and minds really?
In terms of benefits realisation,
how are you able to demonstrate the impactof your solutions on both outcomes
for individuals, the care professionaland for the services you support?
So your career is very simply a way in
(28:44):
which providers can understandsomeone's needs.
And therefore, we're really like a dataand we're like a data engagement product.
So when we boil it right down,what does it do?
It reaches out to a large number of people
and collects data about those individuals.
And the data we're collecting is thingslike has someone taking the medication
(29:05):
or whether the someone's happywith the service
that they're monitoringcentre is provided, etc..
And so from the outsetwe have a huge amount of data,
not just about the service usersthat we're, we're speaking with,
but also about the effectiveness,the efficacy of the technology itself.
And we very much lead everysingle conversation with those numbers
(29:28):
because, yeah, we really focus onwhat those outcomes are.
And yeah, we have some nice case studiesin terms of like the individual stories,
but really we preferto look at the numbers in aggregate
and start to say,
okay, this is the number of peoplethat you were speaking to prior
to using your crew and this is the numberof needs identified, etc.
(29:50):
And we very openly sharea lot of that information.
I think that has really helpedwith our relationships with our customers
because it allowsus to be very transparent
and then to be very transparent
with why they would be using this typeof technology and critically.
Everyone is
very focussed, it seems, on an hour away.
(30:10):
And so not only can we show in our wayin terms of, you know, pounds saved,
but we can also show in ROI in termsof number of unmet needs identified.
So that was what I was going to ask.
Do different parts of your consumers,your your clients,
all the different storiesyou need to tell them,
all the different waysof measuring that return on investment
(30:32):
that are more persuasiveto different groups,
to commissioning somethingslightly different from a different
group of peoplethat you might be selling to.
Yeah, I guess so.
And I the this kind of linksinto our previous conversation
just about funding as well,which is with, with both of these
we're building as a start-upa tool that solves a problem.
(30:55):
And the more specific and nichethat problem is, the easier
it is to say this is the percentageoutcome of using the tool.
These arethe numbers related to using the tool.
And so when it comes to fundraisingor trying to get grants, etc.,
when you get really, really nichewith the problem that you're solving,
suddenly it becomes very clear to people,Oh, this is a tool that can help
(31:16):
in this case because these arethe outcomes from using the tool.
So I think for all I've seen
in our journey, when we go very broadand we start to do many things,
it becomes very hard to expresswhat we're doing.
But when we get right downand get very niche, it's easier to secure
funding and it's easier to fundamentally,I guess, sell the product
because people can get the productsand they understand
(31:39):
this is the problem that I haveand this is the tool that will solve it.
Darren, do you want to
come in with any comments on the benefitsrealisation please.
Yeah.
I justjust become an exit point there on our
I think you know when I used to workon the NHS commissioning side
I think we kind of joked that
if every solutionthat we got at the way that it proposed,
(32:00):
then we wouldn't actually have to payfor the NHS anymore.
It'd be free.
And you know, every case studywe put together a business case,
the NHS always has, you know, a
significant role in which those,those things don't always materialise.
And for us, you know,it is important to IPR
why you need thatfor the commissioning discussion.
But really we're about three things.
So can we improve the lives of the carersthat we support
(32:24):
and can we improve the carethat they provide to their loved ones?
And in doing so,can we save the health system
that they're the free kind of big ticketitems we're looking at
and we build a social return on investmentmodel for that as well as as an art
away model because we're foremosta social enterprise.
So for us, the social sides, as importantas the the business side
(32:45):
vary in termsof what we're trying to achieve.
And when you look into that,
you know, we've had quite useful supportin on that journey.
So we've been lucky to have those grantsto cover off support from academic health
science networks, research partnersand your university
whole universe to bring in those guysto basically do a job, which is is tricky.
(33:07):
It's hard trying to look at a systemand say, did we actually deliver a benefit
in what we did?
And and when you look at prevention,
it's harder than ever because what I dotoday, you know, go for a walk outside,
may help me in four years down the line,
you know,but it's not going to help me next week.
And that's the tricky bitwith our way models.
(33:27):
When you look at prevention
rather than kind of emergencyresponse of systems that we've gone
the O'Meara way point, we are trying
to promotea more proactive delivery of care.
And so we look at places like Spainand they have a very proactive delivery,
proactive care delivery model.
And so then I'm thinking, okay, let's get,let's get hold of some research
(33:49):
that proves all of this.
And fundamentally, there isn't that muchresearch out there, especially in the UK.
There's been almost no research doneinto what the actual ROI is
of delivering a more proactive modeland more funds to model.
I know that the TSA is working on thisa lot with us
and trying to pull togetherresearch partners, etc.
(34:09):
but I haven't seen very much of itby way of like hard numbers
into the actual realisedbenefits over say a medium term
across perhaps a large cohort of people
into the real benefitsof this type of model, although is being
what is being adopted more and moreand I think conceptually everyone
(34:29):
sort of gets it. Yeah,I think that is true.
That is it
has been a challenge that whole preventionpiece for the reasons that Darren says.
How do you say with any certaintythat it's prevented?
Why and something that the commissionswe spoke to found that
sort of expressed waseven if they could prove prevention,
that might be preventionthat the health service.
(34:51):
And that's a separate budget,a separate system.
So, you know, so very siloed approachdidn't really help them in that case.
And Nate, would you want to talk a bitabout how you capture
the outcomes of what you do?
Yeah, so it's I see, really,
I mean, I'm
probably in a much better positionthan the other guys in terms of that.
It's very measurablebecause we're just hiring people.
(35:13):
Now, what we've had to educatethe market on is that
is that candidates and new hiresare not equal in the care world.
So so typically a careprovider is someone,
you know, addicted to into the job boards.
And they and it seems very easyand they hire people.
And the average length of time they stayat 2 hours of care delivered is 180.
(35:35):
And whereas employeereferrals over 4000 hours of care
before they leaveor for whatever happened.
So, so
measuring cost per you might sayoh well my add on indeed is free,
which increasingly is not the case,but those people don't stay.
If in our model the costs, if you like,are made up of two components,
the licence fee is dividedby that each individual hire.
(35:58):
So there's a lot annual licence fee
and also they're paying the pointsor the referral reward
to their member of staffand obviously that's
going to their member of staff,which is a great place for it to go
rather than into a job boardor third party recruitment company.
But nonetheless,we carry two components of cost.
And so we need to demonstratethat we by using the act,
(36:19):
we are the deltabetween what they had before and what we
what we deliver is significant enoughfor for those costs to be carried.
And in most cases it is.
In almost all cases it is.
And also the dashboardis measuring all of this life.
We know the moment someone is hired,and that has been a huge relief
to have a dashboard with life data onand that's always been a huge.
(36:42):
For the whole sector is workforcedata is so hard
to get from providers to tell youwhat's going on.
So we've got some advantages.
Although, you know, in the current crisis,the workforce crisis, then
providers are so kind of
struggling, panicking with, with,with recruitment that, you know, to launch
(37:03):
care friends does require some forwardthinking and a change in behaviour.
And, and so some are taking that,taking that step and others of us aren't.
But we, you know, fundamentally,one of the kind of measures
that my favourite measures
in terms of our success ishow much money are going into the pockets
of care workers through throughperformance, through becoming recruiters.
(37:26):
And as of right now,since we launched last year,
£850,000, and I think that's moneythey wouldn't have got.
And so that is a messagethat, you know, will bring other care
workers on board because they feelthey're part of a system that's growing.
And I think it's it's getting thatword out to everybody that's going to help
because providers will feel like,oh, you know,
(37:48):
you get to a point where they'll
they'll say, everyone else is doing thisand I should, too.
But to get something intothe mainstream is incredibly hard.
And I heard a great analogy,which I'm sure the guys will, will, will
resonate with them as well, is that,you know, a start up like
this is like a massive freight trainin the station with a mini engine
and you're screaming the mini engineas much as you can to get some movement.
(38:09):
And eventually you start getting movement.
And once you get momentum, life gets a loteasier because it can't be stopped.
But trying to get going is the thing.
Yeah,I can see that in the sector that is so
so under
such pressure that the idea of what youryour product can do is around
not just the recruitment,but around the retention,
(38:29):
which is the big challenge in the sector,the churn, the waste of,
you know, retraining and retraining peoplebecause they move organisations
like friends potentially has a meansto address that because people.
You know, recruit their friendswho they know are like minded
people and they will probably stay longerwithin the organisation.
(38:51):
But it's persuading
those organisations that are undergoingpressure that they need to do this.
And you know,you know, it's a few more clicks
or it's, you know, it's another thingfor them to do, which I think , yeah,
it must be very, very challenging.
Well, thank you all for joining us today.
I'd just like to go back roundand just see
if you've got any key messages or thoughtsfor other start-ups in the sector
(39:12):
or the marketplace reallyyou want to be selling to.
So I'll start with Hector.
Yeah. Thanks, Kate.
I have a couple of things to sayto Start-Ups who are in this space.
First of all, align yourselfwith organisations like AIDS and the TSA
and Tax Advisory and begin to buildthose networks as early as possible.
(39:34):
Because not only are theya great way to bounce ideas
off, but they're also a good wayto get access
to potential customersor potential collaborators.
And it's a very easy early thing to do
and I know those organisationsare actively reaching out all the time
to start-ups, so they might fund youin the same way that the TSA called us up.
(39:59):
But I do recommend doing that.
And also I, as I've alluded to already,
I recommend just getting very nichewith the problem that you're solving
and trying to thinkas as specific as possible
because then people get it and thenit makes the whole process much easier.
And later on down the line, when as Neal's
steam engine is rolling at full speed,
(40:21):
when that's going,then you can start doing
lots of other things and buildinglots of other tools.
But first of all, just startsmall and start niche.
Thank you, Hector.
Darren, did you want to summarise?
Yeah, it's great.
And it's great to listen to Nealand Hector as well.
So thanks, guys.
And it's helped me todayactually being on the podcast.
And I think one of the things we say toour Kara community is you're not alone.
(40:43):
And I think that forStobbs, we need to remember that as well.
We're a collective of peopletrying to innovate and make a difference.
And if anybody wants wantsone spot for me, kick ideas around
or shake ideas down or whatever,and feel free to get in touch.
I think to Hector's point there, you know,starting small and specific is great.
(41:04):
And I think the other thing behind Stopis just find your story.
So what is itthat brought you to the point
where you decidedto come up with this idea?
And why do you feel you're the person
that's going to be ableto make that a reality?
Because if you've got that,then you've got a Start-Up.
And that's one of the hardest thingsin finding story, finding
what makes you special.
Thank you, Darren.
(41:24):
And that's certainly somethingwe found on this programme of work.
So I work on the technology pieceby also work on
another piece of workis looking at emerging home care models
and it is that storyso many of these Start-Up innovators
or people who have experiencedfrustrations with the existing system
and want to change things,they have a very clear story and a very
(41:46):
personalexperience, and that is what drives them.
That's what gives that locomotive that
little push, I think.
Neal Yeah, thanks.
And it's I would echo Darren's pointthat just, just hearing Darren Hector's
experiences is it makes it helps mebecause it's a very lonely thing.
I mean, certainly during the COVID periodwhere we've all been kind of feeling
(42:09):
my whole team is separatedor working from home,
trying to learn the job of a CEO,which keeps changing
and trying to keep up witheverything has been really difficult.
So networks are really, really helpful.
And I think there's a narrativeabout entrepreneurs
and how successful it all isand how easy it is.
And of course, that's
the focus on the very few, you know, thathave that become unicorns.
(42:32):
And there's so much othergreat work going on and I think we don't
hear about that.
And so it's greatto share some of the challenges
even if you don't get them sold.
But talking to to guys like Darren Hector,I find other CEOs.
They'd say, Oh, don't do this or try that.
And you save yourself so much time.
Just,you know, people are so willing to give.
And I thinkprobably the reason I work in adult
(42:54):
social care is it's ait's a very giving sector anyway.
And I think talking to peoplewho are trying to make things better
has been really, really helpful.
I think in terms of advice,if I give any to people starting out
on this journey, I mean, I think like yousaid, it's a long journey and we
I realised we incorporated the companyby incorporated the company
(43:14):
three years ago last Fridayand reflected on the journey so far.
And I think there's an area where I didquite well by putting a lot of effort
into the user interface and into the userexperience around the app.
And the app was used by care workersand I didn't want to make assumptions.
So, so I think the more you can do aroundthe human
(43:37):
technical technological interfaceis so, so important
because that that drives a lot of adoptionif people find it easy to use.
And so the more testing
you can do as early as possible,I would say it's really important.
So we did
I thought really well on the on the appside, what I completely forgot was
we have a whole admin portalwhich needs to be used by recruiters
(43:58):
and I just thought I would just check somebuttons in there and some other stuff.
And of course they werethe ones that were non-compliant.
And then of coursethat brings the whole system down.
How could I have missed that?
So it's looking at theall of your stakeholders and anyone
coming into contact with the system andI think you could use a design interface.
Design is know shouldn't be expensive,but the more effort you put into that,
(44:21):
things get a lot, lot easier.
And it also helps you think abouta simple, simple pathway, user pathway.
So that's beenone of my biggest learnings.
Thank you.
That's a really great point.
Amit,do you have anything you would like to add
in terms of tips and advice for start ups?
Only that, you know,if we're looking at our procurement
(44:43):
options, commissioners are really wantingto see evidence of flexibility
and lots of routes to market.
So if you want a framework in particular,do shout about that in your ad marketing,
whether that's through a case studyor any other marketing asset.
So when you're creatingmarketing materials,
whether that be a case study or blog,
(45:05):
do write specifically for your audience.
Really the persona driven.
Don't feel that you have to sort of nailall your messaging
in one piece of communications.
Don't be afraid to write several casestudies or with sign up adaptations,
and you wouldn't go for a job interviewand send that same CV to ten employees.
(45:25):
You would always adapt it.
And it's the same with product marketing,
so that just seems like an obvious point,but it will be seen as quite key point.
Well, thank you all for joining me.
Say thank you to Hector and Darrenand Neal
and EIF for co-hosting with me today.
We hope to join you for the next of Alland podcast, which is looking at the
(45:48):
digital switchover and its implicationsfor technology and care.
Thank you.
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