November 7, 2023 • 29 mins
Join me as I chat about Men's Mental Health Month with Waste Reduction Volunteer, Jeremy Herbert and my colleague Alison Jenkins. #Wellbeing #Gardening #Connection #MentalHealth #MentalHealthAwareness #Earth #MensMentalHealth
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The words shared in thepodcast episode to follow are
a combination of personalexperiences and opinions. If
you have concerns about yourwellbeing, do speak to your GP
or a medical professional.Thanks for listening. Let's
get into the episode. Welcometo the Challenge to Change
(00:21):
podcast. As you know, my nameis Hazel and I'm here today
with Jeremy and Alison. SoJeremy is one of our wonderful
volunteers. He has many hats,which I'll talk to him about
in a moment. And Alison, youhave heard on this podcast
before. So this episode is allabout focusing on men's mental
(00:43):
health. So in November, wehave various things happening.
Of course, there is Movemberwhich I'm sure many people are
aware of we've gotInternational Men's Day on the
19th of November and ingeneral November is kind of
focusing on men's mentalhealth so that's what we're
talking about today and ofcourse linking that into the
(01:04):
environment as we always do.Well it's a strange life I
suppose everybody's lives arestrange but I see I do an
awful lot of environmentalactivity I've been involved in
Things wildlife related sinceI was a teenager and I'm very
active with both the WildlifeTrust and the RSPB but that
(01:29):
has always then linked me intobecause you can't really be
interested in wildlife withoutrealizing The human's impact
on wildlife and on the planetin general. So I've been
involved in Friends of theEarth since the 1980s as well,
because we make theconnections between
everything. So I've beencampaigning on climate change
and people's general lack ofinterest in it since the
(01:52):
1980s. In fact, people haveknown about climate change
since At the end of the 19thcentury, the first paper was
published on the impacts ofcoal and carbon dioxide on the
atmosphere. So I'm a relativenewcomer to this stuff. But
I'm also involved in a groupcalled Sustainable Nantwich,
that's where I live inNantwich, trying to encourage
(02:15):
an awareness of an action onenvironmental issues, planting
up Woodlands and trees in thetown, we were out planting
3,000 bulbs in the parkyesterday and planting a tree
with some kids. And we alsorun a growing health community
garden, which is all aboutmental health, which was set
up during COVID. Because asI'm an allotment holder as
(02:41):
well and I grow vegetables andflowers on two allotments and
talking to other allotmentholders we were talking about
the benefits of growing vegand being out in the outdoors
particularly during Covid whenpeople were feeling isolated
and depressed and Reallyconcerned about things and
(03:01):
being out in the open air andthat sense of exercise and
fresh air and growing healthyvegetables and being in touch
with nature but also beingable to be with other people
without being anywhere nearthem was great because you
could be on your allotment andshout across to the other
allotment. You'd still weren'tbreaking COVID regulations,
(03:21):
which was foul. Um, so, butthen we thought, well, there
must be all sorts of peopleout there living in apartments
and flats and terraced houseswho can't get out, um, who
would benefit from this sortof thing. So why don't we set
up a garden for people who arehaving, having problems and
then that sort of, just whatwas a simple idea is
(03:42):
snowballed and three yearslater, we now have A formal
garden with 20 raised beds, apolytunnel, several sheds.
We're working with HUK, withthe NHS and a range of other
groups to get people out.Hopefully we're doing social
prescribing, we haven't quitegot there yet, it's quite
(04:04):
difficult to get the systemsin place but getting people
out from the doctor'ssurgeries who've got problems
with their weight or who aresuffering from depression or
are just getting better aftersurgery and would really want,
feel, would benefit from beingout in the open door, outdoors
but also people who are lonelyand There's a lot of people
out there who don't get tomeet people and it's been a
(04:25):
magnificent way of gettingpeople out to be doing
something positive, reallyenjoying the garden, but they
can meet people and makefriends and that's been a
brilliant part of the projectas well. So many benefits
there, like you say, you'vegot the physical benefits of
being out there in the freshair and obviously physical
exercise but connecting withothers as well. Absolutely
brilliant. I think you can seethat clear connection between
(04:50):
Connecting with theenvironment and helping to
sort of improve mental health,which is what we want, isn't
it? Yeah, it ticks a few boxeson me. The NHS have their
guideline to good mentalhealth and there's five
elements to that, five stepsto good mental health.
(05:13):
Connecting with other people,one is learning new skills
which might be gardening,growing vegetables, being
creative when you're growingsomething, that's certainly
creative. Exercise, sothere's so many of those
aspects of what makes goodmental health, as the NHS put
(05:38):
out there, that growing forhealth Yeah, and strangely
though, I mean we've got allsorts of music concerts down
there, not rock concerts, youknow, nice quiet music so that
people can go down there andreflect. No fresh metal. No,
(05:59):
no black metal or none of thatstuff. Interesting though, it
might be an idea for thefuture, you never know.
Instruments made entirely outof vegetables might be a way
forward. If that could bedone, I'd definitely want to
see that, I think. That'd besomething to experience for
sure. We've had all sorts ofactivities down there, when
(06:20):
we're doing things like wreathmaking for Christmas. There's
lots of interesting thingsgoing on down there. Because
we're talking about men here,one of the things I've noticed
is that the majority of peoplewho are getting involved are
women. And that is reallydistressing. I mean, it's nice
for me. It's wonderful, ofcourse, but it'd be nice to
(06:42):
see. And I don't know why men,maybe there is an issue here
about men's mental health,maybe the environment is
perceived as being a softthing, it doesn't fit with the
macho. It's a bit stupidbecause it's incredibly hard
work and, you know, It's allinvolving tools and working
(07:04):
with the soil and hardphysical effort. I get really
fit there. I don't need to goto the gym. I've lost three
stones since I started doingall this gardening stuff. I'm
also a gardener as well,professional, well I have been
a professional gardener. I'msort of a gyri. I'm getting
quite old now. I don'tunderstand what it is about
(07:29):
Male culture that seems tothink that caring for stuff is
a weakness. And I think that'spart of the thing that maybe
causes problems for men, thatthey repress. Everybody cares
about stuff, everybody'sworried about stuff, but this
refusal to accept and talkabout and express those
(07:54):
concerns I think thatrefreshing can seal up the
problems and make it evenworse. So maybe that's why the
garden works so well and why Ilove being in the garden is
that you can, and in theoutdoor world, let it all out
in a way. I think you'reright, it's interesting when
(08:16):
you look on the telly and Youknow, even in our Parks and
Grounds department,predominantly male roles.
There are, yeah. Yeah, there'squite a lot of men. The finger
heads on the TV. Predominantlymale roles, governors. And
yet, growing for health, thereare so few people coming out
(08:41):
and getting involved in that,that are men. And I think
there's just Obviously we wantmen to connect with the
importance of their mentalhealth and find ways to
improve it because everybodyhas mental health. It exists.
All beings have the capacityto suffer depression or
(09:06):
anxiety. It's a completelynormal and natural thing but I
think sometimes it's maybeseen as that stigma attached
which is so sad that obviouslywe want to try and find a way
to Reduce or ideally removethat stigma because we all
suffer, as human beings we allsuffer, but we also can
(09:27):
experience great joy so it'sfinding ways to reach that
great joy. It's understandingthat we all have mental
health, sometimes it's good,sometimes it's not so good and
it's reaching out when it'snot so good and it's also
flagging up When it's notscrewed up to mean identifying
(09:50):
that so things downwell that maybe that's the
first start to actuallyidentifying it
(10:14):
I have to be honest here I'mon sertraline because I've
suffered depression all theway through my life. My father
was a manic depressive whoself
(10:39):
Medicated by drinking himselfstupid every night. He drank
10 pints a night and died at63. 63. And smoked incredibly
heavy because that was thething that made you latch on
because you had a cigarette.And you know, he died at 63
and he was a right mess. Butin those days you never
accepted that you were theright mess. And there is a
genetic element to it, anenvironmental aspect. Was it
(11:02):
the fact that I lived with analcoholic father, an alcoholic
depressive father that made medepressed? Or was it the fact
that there's some geneticelement there that, you know,
in your genes that there is anelement. But when I've talked
to doctors about it. And overthe years when I was younger I
refused to accept that I'd gotany problems at all and
(11:23):
rejected any therapy, all thethings that didn't, you know,
because I smashed things upwhen I was a student, I
smashed up the flat and allsorts of stuff. And it's only
when you finally go and seesomeone about it and Start
thinking about how you dealwith this that you realize
this it's like any otherillness you wouldn't not go to
a doctor because you've gotheart disease or because
(11:45):
you've got angina or whateverdisease you've got you go and
see a doctor. Mental health itjust means that there are
issues with the operation ofyour brain and the synapses
aren't working properly and soI've been prescribed by it was
about seven years ago Istarted taking sertraline
Because it's a serotonininhibitor. Or is it the way
(12:09):
round? I can never work outwhich way round it is because
I'm not brilliant on thisstuff. But you need the
serotonin to keep you happyand keep you positive. And my
brain isn't very good atkeeping it in my head. It goes
somewhere. I don't know whereit goes. It's coming out of my
ears like clouds or something.Someone's maybe stealing it
from you.Anyway yeah so I did get angry
(12:34):
about things and getfrustrated and I also suffered
a lot of anxiety and that cameout as frustration but then
the doctor explained thatthere was this problem with my
brain that he let theserotonin out of my ears and
the serotonin inhibitor wouldlock it in and keep it in my
brain for longer and it worksincredibly well and my partner
(12:56):
I was thinking I'm so muchbetter now I'm always cheerful
and I said shall I come off hesaid no don't you It makes me
a much nicer person. And Ifeel better about it, but it's
also about anxiety. I used tobe terrified of heights, you
know, tell people that. Butsince I've taken serotonin, I
got tall ladders to do hedgecutting and I've got no
(13:18):
problems at all. Sosurprisingly, anxiety and
depression are actuallyincredibly closely connected
and it's all to do with theway your brain operates. So if
you are suffering thesethings, don't think, ah, it's
because I'm weak or I can't, Ican't, um, it must be because
I can't cope with things. It'sbecause there's part of you
that's not working properly.And it's relatively, I can't
(13:40):
say it's relativelystraightforward. Some drugs
work for some people, somedon't. But it's a matter of
talking to the right peopleand making sure that, you
know, if you had high bloodpressure, you'd take your
statins, wouldn't you? Thesame way, I've recognized that
I've got depression, whetheror not I've inherited it or
whether it's become part of methrough the environmental
(14:01):
aspects, I don't know, buttreating it really matters.
And for putting yourself in asituation where you can deal
Because yet again we're in asociety where everybody's
competing all the time andwe're told at school we've got
to be successful and all theadverts tell you you've got to
be a man and you've got to besuccessful and you've got to
have all the girls and allthis. So that's a lot of
(14:24):
pressure isn't it? It's a lotof pressure. It's certainly
connecting with theenvironment and being out
there in the garden and Youcan see the fruits of your
labour with what you've grown,so I think that's definitely
one way to measure success.And also, it's about
connecting with yourself andbeing aware of what you might
(14:48):
be feeling. That's anotherway, I think, of what Have I
checked in on myself? How am Idoing? Am I okay? To me that's
successful. And why am I doingthis? Why am I doing what I
do? Am I doing it because Ienjoy it or am I doing it
because I think that's whatother people think I ought to
be doing? There are littlesignposts aren't there to
(15:11):
account for. Things likedifficulty in concentrating or
making decisions. Like yousay, becoming more agitated,
more easily, unable to settle,having difficulty in sleeping
or sleeping too much, loss ofinterest in food or eating too
much, changes in eatinghabits, loss of confidence,
(15:35):
poor self-esteem, feelingguilty when you're not really
at fault. Suicide and thoughtsis one and it's that unusually
sad move that does not go awayafter a sustained amount of
time. Loss of enjoyment andinterest in activities that
(15:55):
used to be enjoyable. So it'schanges and if you think this
isn't me and I'm lackingenergy and I feel tired all
the time that's it's worthhaving a chat to someone And I
think also diet, you mentionedthis about food, and gardening
is fantastic because you'regrowing veg and you're eating
(16:17):
your own produce. You knowthere's nothing, I mean I'm
organic, not personally.The food that I grow is
(16:45):
organic I don't use anypesticides or herbicides and
it does taste different andI'm sure there's an impact on
your health if you get more ofthe essential vitamins coming
out of the soil into yourvegetables and it's much
better for you but you know Ithink often again it's one of
(17:06):
those things wheretraditionally and with all the
advertising that's aroundpeople's diets, fast food and
all that sort of stuff, eatingbeef burgers, a lot of it
contains corn starch from theUS which has absolutely no
dietary benefits and justmakes you extremely fat. And
(17:27):
it's thinking about stuff. Ithink gardening makes you
think about where your foodcomes from. I'm not a gardener
but I do love to be in theenvironment so I kind of
connect with it in that waybut it must be because it
gives you that opportunity tothink about If you join a
choir, that's well known asbeing one of the best things
you can do if youQuiet is definitely, my
(18:12):
partner keeps telling me Ishould sing, maybe it's just
to get me out in the evening,I don't know. I'm a member of
a choir and I love it andsometimes I can go there
feeling stressed at work, notsure I can be bothered.
(18:39):
You'rein the zone when you're when
you're weeding you're in thezone and I love them. I mean,
why don't you get boredweeding? Weeding is not
actually just getting rid ofstuff. It's engaging a lot I
love the bit before you get toplanting the seeds and growing
(18:59):
the seeds. I love the soil.The soil is fascinating stuff
in a hat in was a teaspoon ofSoil has got more life in it.
I can't remember the exactquotation now but there are
millions of microbes andspecies in just a teaspoon of
soil. It's a universe in itsown right and the more vital
(19:23):
and lively your soil is Thebetter your vegetables, the
better things grow. And thenwhen you start studying and
thinking about how thingsinteract in the soil, looking
at the life in a single tinsper teaspoon of soil, it's
fascinating. So, weeding forme, I'm not looking at just
the weeds and thinking aboutnothing. I'm looking at the
soil, I'm looking at the waythat, how many worms there are
in the soil, because worms areincredible, incredible things.
(19:46):
They create our soils, theycreate, you know, all the
stuff that we, oh dirt, that'sa lot of the other term,
people don't like gettingdirty. Dirt is essential, we
are. Dirt, that's where allour life comes from if you cut
yourself off from nature andcut yourself off from dirt you
are going to do yourself ineventually because it's what
you know how can you rejectThe very thing that gives you
(20:10):
value in life. I find thatfascinating and disturbing.
But as you can tell, one ofthe reasons why I suffer from
depression is because I can'tstop getting, I mean, I get
passionate about stuff and Ithink you need to be
passionate about stuff. Beingpassionate is a good thing.
But one of the other partsabout depression, and there
are all sorts of differentelements of depression and
(20:30):
mental health issues, quite,you know, obsession and Quite
a lot of environmentalists doget quite depressed because
they're obsessed with tryingto protect the planet and help
things. So if you're getting abit over the top of it, I get
over the top. I do far toomany things. I get involved
with this group, that group.So I never actually get enough
rest and that gets me down. Soit's a funny, strange thing
(20:54):
that in the same time Irecognize the value of the
things I'm trying to do. Toprotect the planet, to look
after nature, to become morebalanced and centred, to look
at the harmony so that we'renot completely exploiting the
planet and destroying the verything we live on. I get so
obsessed with it that ititself becomes a problem. Yes,
(21:14):
it's finding that balance,isn't it? It's about kind of
connecting in a positive waybut keeping that balance a bit
so that you have rest, as inyou, Jeremy, has rest, but
anybody listening as well. Ifthey also feel that they might
get a little bit hyper-focusedon the issues of the planet,
of the environment, you'refinding that balance again
(21:38):
that you can only do so much.We matter and I've spoken
about this before on anotherepisode of the podcast where I
talked about, you know, can webe a planet hero whilst we're
ill? And I actually recordedthat podcast whilst I was ill,
although I was recovering atthat point. And essentially
(22:01):
the outcome to that is wellno, not really, it's okay to
take a step back, it's okay tokind of say well I need to
heal myself first because wecan't really We can't hope to
kind of heal something elsesuch as the panic if we're not
healthy and well and thatdefinitely applies to mental
(22:21):
health as well. We're part ofjust a part of a big system
which is always by you know Ithink a lot of the time We
have this idea that we areentirely responsible for our
own destiny and if you're anenvironmentalist you think
you're entirely responsiblefor the destiny of the planet
as well which is a bitegotistical to say the least
but it that's you know youhave one I think getting that
(22:44):
sense of perspective naturecan give you a much better
sense of perspective thatyou're just part of something
much bigger And calm you downa bit because the modern
system is always tellingpeople they've got to do more,
they've got to consume more,they've got to be the man.
Well, why? And it's like yousay, with your years of
(23:08):
experience in mental healthyou have got a lot better at
recognising when you switchfrom Hearing the bird song,
appreciating the bird song,looking at the earth, watching
the vegetables grow to gettingreally all those environmental
(23:29):
issues just crowding in on youand then getting overwhelmed
and then trying to achieveeverything and it's just
remembering to take it back tothe bird song, hear the bird
singing, try and identify whatbird it is, Anything, you just
have to take life back to itsmost simple things and focus
(23:53):
on really simple things,looking at the trees,
listening to the sound of thewind rustling through the
leaves and just try and notlook at the bigger picture.
And walking is such a great, Imean I know I understand why
people want to rub it again Idon't really get
ultramarathons. I'm not evensure ultramarathons are good
(24:15):
for you, but running 100 milesin a day, if you do it too
often, I'm sure must do yourknees in. Anyway, being fit is
great. But that also, allthese things can become
obsessive again, can't they?Anything you do can become an
obsession, particularly ifyou're an obsessive type. So
(24:36):
stepping back and trying tothink, get things in balance
is so important I think. Evengood things that you do can
be, you know, I suppose in asaying that's the same with
dieting that some people do.That dieting becomes an
obsession and they end up withanorexia. They may start with
the best of intentions, I knowwhat I'm saying. But whatever
(24:57):
you do, doing it in moderationand in balance. And I think
it's important to Like yousay, checking with yourself
and how you're feeling. Hazel,you've said that. And you've
also said, checking with, whyam I doing this? Is it still
the right thing? You mightjust be doing it because it's
what you've always done. I'vehad this recently because a
(25:20):
couple of years ago I joined acore of society. I joined in
particular because I wanted tobe challenged and try more
difficult works. And then ayear after I signed up for a
qualification and all of asudden things stopped working
and the last concert I did Idid a 50 hour study for it and
(25:43):
I was like I should be usingthat time towards for
qualification and it's likewhy am I doing this? Well
because that's what I've beendoing and why I'm not feeling
so good, why is the singingand not helping so much, why
is it stressing me out? And Ijust stepped back and thought
I'd re-evaluate Just whilstyou're studying, go and join a
(26:04):
simple choir. When you don'tfind it such a challenge, just
turn up, just sing everydaysongs, come away, you don't
have to do any work. Just thenI can refocus and then I can
return to that morechallenging, more difficult
choir and enjoy it again onceI've got less on my plate. But
sometimes you just need tocheck in with your work-life
(26:26):
balance, personal commitmentsand just If you're just doing
something because you'vealways done it or you feel you
should, but it's not makingyou feel great, then just stop
and check in with yourself,why am I doing this? It's just
a line for me. So yeah, I justquestion things, that would be
my... I think of that, yeah,definitely. I would agree with
(26:47):
that, I think it is aboutlistening to your own wisdom.
And finding your own wisdomand questioning things is
important. It's not alwayseasy to do that I think for
everybody or perhaps mostpeople but it is about... And
value what you do because youguys out there who are
(27:08):
collecting the refuse and therecycling You are absolutely
bedrock to how society works.And people who get aggravated,
I get really aggravated withpeople who get aggravated with
rubbish lorries. Because thoseblokes keep our society
moving. What happens if theywithdraw their labour for a
(27:29):
few days? The whole of ourstreets become full of rubbish
and people are moaning andthey can't cope and there's
rats everywhere. You hold thissociety together. You are
deeply important people. It istrue. And I think for the
people doing that work It'sseeing the value of the work
(27:52):
that you're doing and not justseeing yourself as, I don't
know, unimportant but actuallyrecognising, no actually, very
important. Society would veryquickly descend into chaos. It
is, it's the nuts and boltsthat actually matter.
(28:19):
I think society today are alittle bit more in tune with
that connection because of thepandemic. When it was taken
away from us and we could onlyhave one hour in nature I
think we were all andespecially all the noise went
and you could suddenly hearbirds. It was amazing and
(28:41):
that's what I had hoped thatFollowing the pandemic people
would have reconnected withthat stuff and really valued
it. And I'm hoping that mightbe the case but there does
seem to be an indication thatthe push to consume is driving
people away from the thingthat they realised was so
(29:03):
important to them and they'regetting caught up again in the
hysteria. I think thatprobably brings us to a very
poignant and beautifulTo us Jeremy and also of
(29:32):
course to you Alison. So thishas been the Challenge to
Change podcast recorded of thecourse on behalf of ANSA
Environmental Services. Thankyou so much for listening and
bye for now.
The words shared in thepodcast episode to follow are
a combination of personalexperiences and opinions. If
you have concerns about yourwellbeing, do speak to your GP
or a medical professional.Thanks for listening. Let's
get into the episode. Welcometo the Challenge to Change
(00:21):
podcast. As you know, my nameis Hazel and I'm here today
with Jeremy and Alison. SoJeremy is one of our wonderful
volunteers. He has many hats,which I'll talk to him about
in a moment. And Alison, youhave heard on this podcast
before. So this episode is allabout focusing on men's mental
(00:43):
health. So in November, wehave various things happening.
Of course, there is Movemberwhich I'm sure many people are
aware of we've gotInternational Men's Day on the
19th of November and ingeneral November is kind of
focusing on men's mentalhealth so that's what we're
talking about today and ofcourse linking that into the
(01:04):
environment as we always do.Well it's a strange life I
suppose everybody's lives arestrange but I see I do an
awful lot of environmentalactivity I've been involved in
Things wildlife related sinceI was a teenager and I'm very
active with both the WildlifeTrust and the RSPB but that
(01:29):
has always then linked me intobecause you can't really be
interested in wildlife withoutrealizing The human's impact
on wildlife and on the planetin general. So I've been
involved in Friends of theEarth since the 1980s as well,
because we make theconnections between
everything. So I've beencampaigning on climate change
and people's general lack ofinterest in it since the
(01:52):
1980s. In fact, people haveknown about climate change
since At the end of the 19thcentury, the first paper was
published on the impacts ofcoal and carbon dioxide on the
atmosphere. So I'm a relativenewcomer to this stuff. But
I'm also involved in a groupcalled Sustainable Nantwich,
that's where I live inNantwich, trying to encourage
(02:15):
an awareness of an action onenvironmental issues, planting
up Woodlands and trees in thetown, we were out planting
3,000 bulbs in the parkyesterday and planting a tree
with some kids. And we alsorun a growing health community
garden, which is all aboutmental health, which was set
up during COVID. Because asI'm an allotment holder as
(02:41):
well and I grow vegetables andflowers on two allotments and
talking to other allotmentholders we were talking about
the benefits of growing vegand being out in the outdoors
particularly during Covid whenpeople were feeling isolated
and depressed and Reallyconcerned about things and
(03:01):
being out in the open air andthat sense of exercise and
fresh air and growing healthyvegetables and being in touch
with nature but also beingable to be with other people
without being anywhere nearthem was great because you
could be on your allotment andshout across to the other
allotment. You'd still weren'tbreaking COVID regulations,
(03:21):
which was foul. Um, so, butthen we thought, well, there
must be all sorts of peopleout there living in apartments
and flats and terraced houseswho can't get out, um, who
would benefit from this sortof thing. So why don't we set
up a garden for people who arehaving, having problems and
then that sort of, just whatwas a simple idea is
(03:42):
snowballed and three yearslater, we now have A formal
garden with 20 raised beds, apolytunnel, several sheds.
We're working with HUK, withthe NHS and a range of other
groups to get people out.Hopefully we're doing social
prescribing, we haven't quitegot there yet, it's quite
(04:04):
difficult to get the systemsin place but getting people
out from the doctor'ssurgeries who've got problems
with their weight or who aresuffering from depression or
are just getting better aftersurgery and would really want,
feel, would benefit from beingout in the open door, outdoors
but also people who are lonelyand There's a lot of people
out there who don't get tomeet people and it's been a
(04:25):
magnificent way of gettingpeople out to be doing
something positive, reallyenjoying the garden, but they
can meet people and makefriends and that's been a
brilliant part of the projectas well. So many benefits
there, like you say, you'vegot the physical benefits of
being out there in the freshair and obviously physical
exercise but connecting withothers as well. Absolutely
brilliant. I think you can seethat clear connection between
(04:50):
Connecting with theenvironment and helping to
sort of improve mental health,which is what we want, isn't
it? Yeah, it ticks a few boxeson me. The NHS have their
guideline to good mentalhealth and there's five
elements to that, five stepsto good mental health.
(05:13):
Connecting with other people,one is learning new skills
which might be gardening,growing vegetables, being
creative when you're growingsomething, that's certainly
creative. Exercise, sothere's so many of those
aspects of what makes goodmental health, as the NHS put
(05:38):
out there, that growing forhealth Yeah, and strangely
though, I mean we've got allsorts of music concerts down
there, not rock concerts, youknow, nice quiet music so that
people can go down there andreflect. No fresh metal. No,
(05:59):
no black metal or none of thatstuff. Interesting though, it
might be an idea for thefuture, you never know.
Instruments made entirely outof vegetables might be a way
forward. If that could bedone, I'd definitely want to
see that, I think. That'd besomething to experience for
sure. We've had all sorts ofactivities down there, when
(06:20):
we're doing things like wreathmaking for Christmas. There's
lots of interesting thingsgoing on down there. Because
we're talking about men here,one of the things I've noticed
is that the majority of peoplewho are getting involved are
women. And that is reallydistressing. I mean, it's nice
for me. It's wonderful, ofcourse, but it'd be nice to
(06:42):
see. And I don't know why men,maybe there is an issue here
about men's mental health,maybe the environment is
perceived as being a softthing, it doesn't fit with the
macho. It's a bit stupidbecause it's incredibly hard
work and, you know, It's allinvolving tools and working
(07:04):
with the soil and hardphysical effort. I get really
fit there. I don't need to goto the gym. I've lost three
stones since I started doingall this gardening stuff. I'm
also a gardener as well,professional, well I have been
a professional gardener. I'msort of a gyri. I'm getting
quite old now. I don'tunderstand what it is about
(07:29):
Male culture that seems tothink that caring for stuff is
a weakness. And I think that'spart of the thing that maybe
causes problems for men, thatthey repress. Everybody cares
about stuff, everybody'sworried about stuff, but this
refusal to accept and talkabout and express those
(07:54):
concerns I think thatrefreshing can seal up the
problems and make it evenworse. So maybe that's why the
garden works so well and why Ilove being in the garden is
that you can, and in theoutdoor world, let it all out
in a way. I think you'reright, it's interesting when
(08:16):
you look on the telly and Youknow, even in our Parks and
Grounds department,predominantly male roles.
There are, yeah. Yeah, there'squite a lot of men. The finger
heads on the TV. Predominantlymale roles, governors. And
yet, growing for health, thereare so few people coming out
(08:41):
and getting involved in that,that are men. And I think
there's just Obviously we wantmen to connect with the
importance of their mentalhealth and find ways to
improve it because everybodyhas mental health. It exists.
All beings have the capacityto suffer depression or
(09:06):
anxiety. It's a completelynormal and natural thing but I
think sometimes it's maybeseen as that stigma attached
which is so sad that obviouslywe want to try and find a way
to Reduce or ideally removethat stigma because we all
suffer, as human beings we allsuffer, but we also can
(09:27):
experience great joy so it'sfinding ways to reach that
great joy. It's understandingthat we all have mental
health, sometimes it's good,sometimes it's not so good and
it's reaching out when it'snot so good and it's also
flagging up When it's notscrewed up to mean identifying
(09:50):
that so things downwell that maybe that's the
first start to actuallyidentifying it
(10:14):
I have to be honest here I'mon sertraline because I've
suffered depression all theway through my life. My father
was a manic depressive whoself
(10:39):
Medicated by drinking himselfstupid every night. He drank
10 pints a night and died at63. 63. And smoked incredibly
heavy because that was thething that made you latch on
because you had a cigarette.And you know, he died at 63
and he was a right mess. Butin those days you never
accepted that you were theright mess. And there is a
genetic element to it, anenvironmental aspect. Was it
(11:02):
the fact that I lived with analcoholic father, an alcoholic
depressive father that made medepressed? Or was it the fact
that there's some geneticelement there that, you know,
in your genes that there is anelement. But when I've talked
to doctors about it. And overthe years when I was younger I
refused to accept that I'd gotany problems at all and
(11:23):
rejected any therapy, all thethings that didn't, you know,
because I smashed things upwhen I was a student, I
smashed up the flat and allsorts of stuff. And it's only
when you finally go and seesomeone about it and Start
thinking about how you dealwith this that you realize
this it's like any otherillness you wouldn't not go to
a doctor because you've gotheart disease or because
(11:45):
you've got angina or whateverdisease you've got you go and
see a doctor. Mental health itjust means that there are
issues with the operation ofyour brain and the synapses
aren't working properly and soI've been prescribed by it was
about seven years ago Istarted taking sertraline
Because it's a serotonininhibitor. Or is it the way
(12:09):
round? I can never work outwhich way round it is because
I'm not brilliant on thisstuff. But you need the
serotonin to keep you happyand keep you positive. And my
brain isn't very good atkeeping it in my head. It goes
somewhere. I don't know whereit goes. It's coming out of my
ears like clouds or something.Someone's maybe stealing it
from you.Anyway yeah so I did get angry
(12:34):
about things and getfrustrated and I also suffered
a lot of anxiety and that cameout as frustration but then
the doctor explained thatthere was this problem with my
brain that he let theserotonin out of my ears and
the serotonin inhibitor wouldlock it in and keep it in my
brain for longer and it worksincredibly well and my partner
(12:56):
I was thinking I'm so muchbetter now I'm always cheerful
and I said shall I come off hesaid no don't you It makes me
a much nicer person. And Ifeel better about it, but it's
also about anxiety. I used tobe terrified of heights, you
know, tell people that. Butsince I've taken serotonin, I
got tall ladders to do hedgecutting and I've got no
(13:18):
problems at all. Sosurprisingly, anxiety and
depression are actuallyincredibly closely connected
and it's all to do with theway your brain operates. So if
you are suffering thesethings, don't think, ah, it's
because I'm weak or I can't, Ican't, um, it must be because
I can't cope with things. It'sbecause there's part of you
that's not working properly.And it's relatively, I can't
(13:40):
say it's relativelystraightforward. Some drugs
work for some people, somedon't. But it's a matter of
talking to the right peopleand making sure that, you
know, if you had high bloodpressure, you'd take your
statins, wouldn't you? Thesame way, I've recognized that
I've got depression, whetheror not I've inherited it or
whether it's become part of methrough the environmental
(14:01):
aspects, I don't know, buttreating it really matters.
And for putting yourself in asituation where you can deal
Because yet again we're in asociety where everybody's
competing all the time andwe're told at school we've got
to be successful and all theadverts tell you you've got to
be a man and you've got to besuccessful and you've got to
have all the girls and allthis. So that's a lot of
(14:24):
pressure isn't it? It's a lotof pressure. It's certainly
connecting with theenvironment and being out
there in the garden and Youcan see the fruits of your
labour with what you've grown,so I think that's definitely
one way to measure success.And also, it's about
connecting with yourself andbeing aware of what you might
(14:48):
be feeling. That's anotherway, I think, of what Have I
checked in on myself? How am Idoing? Am I okay? To me that's
successful. And why am I doingthis? Why am I doing what I
do? Am I doing it because Ienjoy it or am I doing it
because I think that's whatother people think I ought to
be doing? There are littlesignposts aren't there to
(15:11):
account for. Things likedifficulty in concentrating or
making decisions. Like yousay, becoming more agitated,
more easily, unable to settle,having difficulty in sleeping
or sleeping too much, loss ofinterest in food or eating too
much, changes in eatinghabits, loss of confidence,
(15:35):
poor self-esteem, feelingguilty when you're not really
at fault. Suicide and thoughtsis one and it's that unusually
sad move that does not go awayafter a sustained amount of
time. Loss of enjoyment andinterest in activities that
(15:55):
used to be enjoyable. So it'schanges and if you think this
isn't me and I'm lackingenergy and I feel tired all
the time that's it's worthhaving a chat to someone And I
think also diet, you mentionedthis about food, and gardening
is fantastic because you'regrowing veg and you're eating
(16:17):
your own produce. You knowthere's nothing, I mean I'm
organic, not personally.The food that I grow is
(16:45):
organic I don't use anypesticides or herbicides and
it does taste different andI'm sure there's an impact on
your health if you get more ofthe essential vitamins coming
out of the soil into yourvegetables and it's much
better for you but you know Ithink often again it's one of
(17:06):
those things wheretraditionally and with all the
advertising that's aroundpeople's diets, fast food and
all that sort of stuff, eatingbeef burgers, a lot of it
contains corn starch from theUS which has absolutely no
dietary benefits and justmakes you extremely fat. And
(17:27):
it's thinking about stuff. Ithink gardening makes you
think about where your foodcomes from. I'm not a gardener
but I do love to be in theenvironment so I kind of
connect with it in that waybut it must be because it
gives you that opportunity tothink about If you join a
choir, that's well known asbeing one of the best things
you can do if youQuiet is definitely, my
(18:12):
partner keeps telling me Ishould sing, maybe it's just
to get me out in the evening,I don't know. I'm a member of
a choir and I love it andsometimes I can go there
feeling stressed at work, notsure I can be bothered.
(18:39):
You'rein the zone when you're when
you're weeding you're in thezone and I love them. I mean,
why don't you get boredweeding? Weeding is not
actually just getting rid ofstuff. It's engaging a lot I
love the bit before you get toplanting the seeds and growing
(18:59):
the seeds. I love the soil.The soil is fascinating stuff
in a hat in was a teaspoon ofSoil has got more life in it.
I can't remember the exactquotation now but there are
millions of microbes andspecies in just a teaspoon of
soil. It's a universe in itsown right and the more vital
(19:23):
and lively your soil is Thebetter your vegetables, the
better things grow. And thenwhen you start studying and
thinking about how thingsinteract in the soil, looking
at the life in a single tinsper teaspoon of soil, it's
fascinating. So, weeding forme, I'm not looking at just
the weeds and thinking aboutnothing. I'm looking at the
soil, I'm looking at the waythat, how many worms there are
in the soil, because worms areincredible, incredible things.
(19:46):
They create our soils, theycreate, you know, all the
stuff that we, oh dirt, that'sa lot of the other term,
people don't like gettingdirty. Dirt is essential, we
are. Dirt, that's where allour life comes from if you cut
yourself off from nature andcut yourself off from dirt you
are going to do yourself ineventually because it's what
you know how can you rejectThe very thing that gives you
(20:10):
value in life. I find thatfascinating and disturbing.
But as you can tell, one ofthe reasons why I suffer from
depression is because I can'tstop getting, I mean, I get
passionate about stuff and Ithink you need to be
passionate about stuff. Beingpassionate is a good thing.
But one of the other partsabout depression, and there
are all sorts of differentelements of depression and
(20:30):
mental health issues, quite,you know, obsession and Quite
a lot of environmentalists doget quite depressed because
they're obsessed with tryingto protect the planet and help
things. So if you're getting abit over the top of it, I get
over the top. I do far toomany things. I get involved
with this group, that group.So I never actually get enough
rest and that gets me down. Soit's a funny, strange thing
(20:54):
that in the same time Irecognize the value of the
things I'm trying to do. Toprotect the planet, to look
after nature, to become morebalanced and centred, to look
at the harmony so that we'renot completely exploiting the
planet and destroying the verything we live on. I get so
obsessed with it that ititself becomes a problem. Yes,
(21:14):
it's finding that balance,isn't it? It's about kind of
connecting in a positive waybut keeping that balance a bit
so that you have rest, as inyou, Jeremy, has rest, but
anybody listening as well. Ifthey also feel that they might
get a little bit hyper-focusedon the issues of the planet,
of the environment, you'refinding that balance again
(21:38):
that you can only do so much.We matter and I've spoken
about this before on anotherepisode of the podcast where I
talked about, you know, can webe a planet hero whilst we're
ill? And I actually recordedthat podcast whilst I was ill,
although I was recovering atthat point. And essentially
(22:01):
the outcome to that is wellno, not really, it's okay to
take a step back, it's okay tokind of say well I need to
heal myself first because wecan't really We can't hope to
kind of heal something elsesuch as the panic if we're not
healthy and well and thatdefinitely applies to mental
(22:21):
health as well. We're part ofjust a part of a big system
which is always by you know Ithink a lot of the time We
have this idea that we areentirely responsible for our
own destiny and if you're anenvironmentalist you think
you're entirely responsiblefor the destiny of the planet
as well which is a bitegotistical to say the least
but it that's you know youhave one I think getting that
(22:44):
sense of perspective naturecan give you a much better
sense of perspective thatyou're just part of something
much bigger And calm you downa bit because the modern
system is always tellingpeople they've got to do more,
they've got to consume more,they've got to be the man.
Well, why? And it's like yousay, with your years of
(23:08):
experience in mental healthyou have got a lot better at
recognising when you switchfrom Hearing the bird song,
appreciating the bird song,looking at the earth, watching
the vegetables grow to gettingreally all those environmental
(23:29):
issues just crowding in on youand then getting overwhelmed
and then trying to achieveeverything and it's just
remembering to take it back tothe bird song, hear the bird
singing, try and identify whatbird it is, Anything, you just
have to take life back to itsmost simple things and focus
(23:53):
on really simple things,looking at the trees,
listening to the sound of thewind rustling through the
leaves and just try and notlook at the bigger picture.
And walking is such a great, Imean I know I understand why
people want to rub it again Idon't really get
ultramarathons. I'm not evensure ultramarathons are good
(24:15):
for you, but running 100 milesin a day, if you do it too
often, I'm sure must do yourknees in. Anyway, being fit is
great. But that also, allthese things can become
obsessive again, can't they?Anything you do can become an
obsession, particularly ifyou're an obsessive type. So
(24:36):
stepping back and trying tothink, get things in balance
is so important I think. Evengood things that you do can
be, you know, I suppose in asaying that's the same with
dieting that some people do.That dieting becomes an
obsession and they end up withanorexia. They may start with
the best of intentions, I knowwhat I'm saying. But whatever
(24:57):
you do, doing it in moderationand in balance. And I think
it's important to Like yousay, checking with yourself
and how you're feeling. Hazel,you've said that. And you've
also said, checking with, whyam I doing this? Is it still
the right thing? You mightjust be doing it because it's
what you've always done. I'vehad this recently because a
(25:20):
couple of years ago I joined acore of society. I joined in
particular because I wanted tobe challenged and try more
difficult works. And then ayear after I signed up for a
qualification and all of asudden things stopped working
and the last concert I did Idid a 50 hour study for it and
(25:43):
I was like I should be usingthat time towards for
qualification and it's likewhy am I doing this? Well
because that's what I've beendoing and why I'm not feeling
so good, why is the singingand not helping so much, why
is it stressing me out? And Ijust stepped back and thought
I'd re-evaluate Just whilstyou're studying, go and join a
(26:04):
simple choir. When you don'tfind it such a challenge, just
turn up, just sing everydaysongs, come away, you don't
have to do any work. Just thenI can refocus and then I can
return to that morechallenging, more difficult
choir and enjoy it again onceI've got less on my plate. But
sometimes you just need tocheck in with your work-life
(26:26):
balance, personal commitmentsand just If you're just doing
something because you'vealways done it or you feel you
should, but it's not makingyou feel great, then just stop
and check in with yourself,why am I doing this? It's just
a line for me. So yeah, I justquestion things, that would be
my... I think of that, yeah,definitely. I would agree with
(26:47):
that, I think it is aboutlistening to your own wisdom.
And finding your own wisdomand questioning things is
important. It's not alwayseasy to do that I think for
everybody or perhaps mostpeople but it is about... And
value what you do because youguys out there who are
(27:08):
collecting the refuse and therecycling You are absolutely
bedrock to how society works.And people who get aggravated,
I get really aggravated withpeople who get aggravated with
rubbish lorries. Because thoseblokes keep our society
moving. What happens if theywithdraw their labour for a
(27:29):
few days? The whole of ourstreets become full of rubbish
and people are moaning andthey can't cope and there's
rats everywhere. You hold thissociety together. You are
deeply important people. It istrue. And I think for the
people doing that work It'sseeing the value of the work
(27:52):
that you're doing and not justseeing yourself as, I don't
know, unimportant but actuallyrecognising, no actually, very
important. Society would veryquickly descend into chaos. It
is, it's the nuts and boltsthat actually matter.
(28:19):
I think society today are alittle bit more in tune with
that connection because of thepandemic. When it was taken
away from us and we could onlyhave one hour in nature I
think we were all andespecially all the noise went
and you could suddenly hearbirds. It was amazing and
(28:41):
that's what I had hoped thatFollowing the pandemic people
would have reconnected withthat stuff and really valued
it. And I'm hoping that mightbe the case but there does
seem to be an indication thatthe push to consume is driving
people away from the thingthat they realised was so
(29:03):
important to them and they'regetting caught up again in the
hysteria. I think thatprobably brings us to a very
poignant and beautifulTo us Jeremy and also of
(29:32):
course to you Alison. So thishas been the Challenge to
Change podcast recorded of thecourse on behalf of ANSA
Environmental Services. Thankyou so much for listening and
bye for now.
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