Chatter Marks EP 129 Branding the Arctic with Jeremie McGowan and Amund Sjolie Sveen

Jeremie McGowan is an artist, designer, and researcher. Amund Sjolie Sveen is an artist. And together, they created Real. Arctic., an exhibition that examines how the word “Arctic” is used in branding, institutions, geopolitics, and everyday consumer products — and how the use of that word shapes what we think we know about the arctic. Their work blurs the line between critique and commodity, asking who gets to define the Arctic, who profits from it, and what gets flattened in the process. Throughout the exhibition, the work shifts form — from displays of “Pure Arctic” deodorant to an expanding archive of Arctic-branded objects — asking viewers to reconsider what is real and what has been manufactured. It explores how art and design can both construct and unravel powerful narratives about place, and what responsibility comes with working inside those systems.

Jeremie and Amund collect and document products from around the world that call themselves “Arctic,” or borrow the image, the light, or the myth of the Arctic to sell something. Even when those products have no connection to the place itself. Deodorants that promise Arctic purity, chewing gum that offers polar freshness, outdoor brands that are marketed around rugged endurance and masculine extremes. Again and again, the Arctic appears as clean, untouched, and invigorating — a blank canvas for refreshment or conquest. As Jeremie points out, much of that marketing is driven by an outsider fantasy: the idea that you’re the first, the only one to witness the wilderness or the Northern Lights, even as that experience is packaged and sold en masse. Amund says that the Arctic’s power as a word may lie in its perceived remoteness. Because it feels unknown, it can be filled with whatever we want it to mean. And in that process, the realities of the place itself and the people who live there often fall away and what remains is a brand. And then, beneath all of that, is a deeper question about power: who gets to define a place, and whose version of that place becomes the story that guides our understanding of it.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Yeah, I would, I guess I would say that all those that stereotypes of like the pristine

(00:16):
untouched wilderness and, you know, sort of untrodden snow, you're the first person to
discover all these like myths and stereotypes of discovery and finding and, and open expanses
just available for extraction, whether that's resource extraction, or own personal extraction,
I think that's precisely what the marketing does just based on. So it's sort of like,

(00:41):
it's all those sort of stereotypes of what the Arctic and that's deeply entrenched culturally
as well with the sort of, you know, the eras of Arctic exploration and things. So I think
the sort of that, that outsider view of the Arctic is very much the one that drives a
lot of marketing. And then interestingly, I'm not, it's, we've got to point out as well

(01:04):
that a lot of that marketing work is, or we've used the term almond came with this term that
like the self exaltification, right? Okay, so it's not just outside stereotypes, either
a lot of a lot of people in the Arctic knowingly, like promote these images and associations
as well.

(01:25):
That was Jeremy McGowan. He's an artist, designer, and researcher. Also joining this conversation
is artist almond Shirley Sven. Together, they created real Arctic, an exhibition that examines
how the word Arctic is used in branding, institutions, geopolitics, and everyday consumer products.

(01:54):
And how the use of that word shapes what we think we know about the Arctic. Their work
blurs the line between critique and commodity, asking who gets to define the Arctic, who
profits from it, and what gets flattened in the process.

(02:14):
Throughout the exhibition, the work shifts form from displays of pure Arctic deodorant
to an expanding archive of Arctic branded objects, asking viewers to reconsider what
is real and what has been manufactured. It explores how art and design can both construct

(02:35):
and unravel powerful narratives about place and what responsibility comes with working
inside those systems.
Jeremy and Almond collect and document products from around the world that call themselves
Arctic or borrow the image, the light, or the myth of the Arctic to sell something.

(02:58):
Even when those products have no connection to the place itself. Deodorants that promise
Arctic purity, chewing gum that offers polar freshness, outdoor brands that are marketed
around rugged endurance and masculine extremes. Again and again, the Arctic appears as clean,

(03:20):
untouched, and invigorating. A blank canvas for refreshment or conquest.
As Jeremy points out, much of the marketing is driven by an outsider fantasy. The idea
that you're the first, the only one to witness the wilderness or the northern lights. Even

(03:42):
as that experience is packaged and sold on mass.
Almond says that the Arctic's power as a word may lie in its perceived remoteness. Because
it feels unknown, it can be filled with whatever we want it to mean. And in that process, the

(04:02):
realities of that place and the people who live there often fall away and what remains
is a brand. And then beneath all of that is a deeper question about power. Who gets
to define a place? And whose version of that place becomes the story that guides our understanding

(04:23):
of it? So here they are, Jeremy McGowan and Almond
and Shirley Sven. Welcome to Chatter Marks, a podcast of the Anchorage Museum dedicated
to exploring Alaska and the circumpolar north through the creative and critical thinking

(04:46):
of ideas, past, present, and future. My name is Cody Liske and I'll be your host.
Jeremy, you often work with the same tools used to marketplaces, you know, logos, products,

(05:13):
systems of display to unpack how Alaska and the Arctic get framed by institutions. What
does it mean to critique a system you're also participating in?
Yeah, that's the age old question, isn't it? For the possibilities of critique when you

(05:34):
and the avant-garde. So I mean, it's sort of a bit of, you know, I have my background
as a designer and I should say I've never worked then as a proper designer, a graphic
designer with marketing, right? Because I've always been skeptical to the sort of design
in the service of capitalism and corporations. So it is precisely that what you're getting

(05:54):
at. And I won't say I have the answers here, but I like to be optimistic in that there
remains room for critical gestures using the same tools that capitalism and marketing
and that graphic design and designers participate in to sort of detour those or subvert them

(06:14):
and use them back against themselves through sort of hacking or culture jamming, these
type of things that can be called as well. But I mean, we're living in a particularly
interesting moment now where all that's up in question because it's also these, maybe
the very sort of powers that one might be trying to critique have also increasingly

(06:37):
started using this type of language of subversion as well in different directions. So it's a
very complex question. So I mean, it's something that you have to constantly be on your toes
and be evaluating, you know, is the possibility for criticism now gone? Is the ability to
make a critical gesture, do a critical move now sort of, again, subverted because it's

(07:02):
changing and shifting terrain. So you definitely can't just repeat the same thing all the time.
You have to remain agile and look for new inroads for critique. Yeah.
Mm hmm. When you're in the middle of a project, how do you know when you're productively pushing
against the system and when you might be getting pulled back into it?

(07:28):
Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one. I guess we've, Amun and I, between us, we've had this,
we've used this term of like productive discomfort as a sort of working as an operational tool
between us. Right. So something trying to like hit on the right balance between something

(07:48):
that is maybe seductive and appealing. So it works in a sort of an actual marketing
sort of good graphic design sort of way, but that it also has a tension in it that creates
maybe a feeling of discomfort or displacement. And when we, I guess, when we feel like we're

(08:12):
somehow hitting that nail on the head that we're bridging those two things at the same
time, then we start being pretty pleased with the directions we might be going. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Can I add something to that? Absolutely.
Thanks. Well, I think there are two things that comes to my mind and the first one being
that often you can't really know. And what we're doing is some sort of live prototyping

(08:40):
or trying out things. And it's not an accurate, it's not science in that way that you always
would know the outcome. So it's about trying, experimenting. But then also, I think, you
know, as opposed to, like Jeremy said, proper marketing, which where the goal is very clear,

(09:02):
right? You're supposed to sell more of this thing or you're supposed to spread more of
this message. Being critical is a very different thing to sell because you're not selling a
thing or an opinion. You're trying to open up things. Right. You're trying to say that
you're trying to be critical, you're trying to open up for different views, trying to

(09:27):
shift perspectives, which is a very different thing. So I think it's not, you can't really
apply the same measurements of success as you would if you're selling a phone or whatever
we're talking about here. So I think the whole playing field is a bit different. Yeah.
Yeah. So it's like conversation starters instead of products, for example. That's

(09:51):
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amin, a lot of your work examines how design, especially within Nordic
and Scandinavian contexts, shapes ideas of the Arctic as clean, sustainable or morally neutral.
How do you go about breaking open those polished narratives?

(10:13):
Yeah. Well, to me, I think a lot of the thing is to, you know, for myself and for us first to
realize what is the Polish narrative and sort of to locate that and what is the Polish narrative
or the story that the government wants to tell or the nation wants to tell and how true is it?

(10:46):
And then to try to see if there are ways to access that from other directions, other angles.
Because, I mean, these polished images that we always hear, and that
doesn't only, of course, apply to the Arctic, that that's the same everywhere that
are some people or some forces wants to create certain images. I mean, we all know often that

(11:13):
they are fake or that they are at least they are not entirely true. So it's about pointing
to those other directions, trying to open up those other viewpoints, I guess. I mean,
that's very generally speaking, but yeah, I think so.
How do you determine if a narrative by, for example, the government is not completely accurate?

(11:39):
Is it about your own perception or kind of a conglomeration of everybody's perspective?
Yeah, well, it is subjective, so it's personal, but I think it's also for me and you can join in,

(12:00):
Jeremy, but it's also about taking a different perspective than the perspective from power.
Right. So, I mean, classic example in Norway, in the north of Norway is, of course, that
the government wants to sell building wind turbines as clean and green energy. And this

(12:20):
is for the green shift. And this is very good for all of us. All right. And then there are,
of course, other groups that think that this is ruining untouched nature. It's ruining
untouched nature. It's ruining reindeer. What's the word, Jeremy?

(12:43):
The reindeer herding, like, yeah, impeding on, like, grazing grounds for reindeers.
Yeah. And thereby damaging traditionally indigenous lifestyles, you know.
Yeah. So then it's about taking that minority perspective, I think, which is not necessarily
my perspective, but just to say that there is a perspective that's opposing the view of the

(13:08):
people in power. Yeah. Yeah. And if I could chime in there, too, I think it's this underlying sort
of in the work that Amund and I do together and that we do separately. It's this sort of
commitment to looking at things sideways, if you will, as a sort of, with a belief that that is a,

(13:30):
that that can be a very productive and optimistic or even utopian, a positive thing. So not critique
or criticism as negative or pointing out faults, but as a way to speculate and imagine alternatives,
which is an inherently, in a sense, optimistic also, or, you know, believing in that there can

(13:52):
be different pathways, different futures, different nows that we can collectively envision
and craft together and speculate around. And then that's a very important role of sort of art,
design, creative practice to do. Right. So to question narratives, to put alternatives on the
table and to sort of, you know, start at least sketching the faint outlines of what that might

(14:18):
be or how it might look like, what it might feel like. Yeah. As you're breaking down these polished
Arctic narratives, how do you decide what to make visible and what to leave unresolved
or uncomfortable? So I think, yeah, please do. Yeah. Well, I guess my immediate response sort of

(14:45):
was to sort of speak in terms of how we've had an internal dialogue, you and I, Armand, around
sort of being also true, starting with the complexity, the actual existing complexity,
and to be open-minded as well. Right. So that some of the work we're doing, for example, is a sort of

(15:10):
mapping, cartography, archiving type of work. And sometimes you can get quite surprised by what you
find when you, in a sense, try to take a sort of neutral, whatever that might mean, sort of
researcher gaze on things. So that like collecting, you know, there's all these Arctic products now
that we play with and document and collect. And those can be, they can really run the spectrum

(15:36):
from both things that might appear to be a very local, but then in the end are, you know, produced
by a multinational, almost untraceable, you know, daughter companies and sort of this web of like,
where's, who actually makes this and says, versus things that might on the flip side appear generic

(15:57):
or somehow not from a place, but be then the local authentic thing. Right. And the other way around.
So things are not as they appear to be always. I mean, and that goes for every, for most places
in the world, but sometimes the Arctic, it feels like, you know, maybe more so than other places,
there's these interesting sort of discrepancies you could maybe say between what might be of the

(16:22):
place and of the North and not. So I think being open to that and trying to figure these
things out sometimes. Right. And not sort of immediately assume that, oh, this is a mass
produced item in China when in fact it's something made locally. Right. And vice versa. And when you
then embrace that complexity, then part of the job, maybe it is like more like editing or curating,

(16:48):
right. That you're presenting this, these stories and these this material that you uncover and
trying to let it then, let it speak and let it speak to its complexities and not try to sort of
unnecessarily edit things, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're always playing with that.

(17:17):
What we make visible and what we remain or what we leave unresolved. I mean,
we're not solving much at all, maybe. So in a way we're leaving everything unsolved, but we're
highlighting some aspects and how we decide to that. I think it's about, you know,
interest and curiosity and we go for what's fun. I mean, we have this, you know, Jeremy speaking

(17:45):
about these Arctic objects, because that's part of what we're doing. We're collecting these objects
that call themselves Arctic and they're obviously not from the Arctic at all, but using this
idea or this myth of the Arctic as something clean and attractive. And we found this Chinese

(18:08):
soda. It's called the Arctic Ocean, has this polar bear as its logo. So that's, it's a
Mandarin soda. That's always fun. Arctic mandarins produced in China. And it's an
established brand in China, in Beijing. It's been around for, you know, decades.

(18:28):
And of all the sort of objects that we sort of, yeah, you Google Arctic object and there's
millions of them, but this was a fun thing, right? In that project are many of these or in that
object are many of these contradictions and dilemmas. It's, you know, it's China having this

(18:52):
lately geopolitical Arctic ambitions, which of course Trump is talking about related to Greenland.
And it's the polar bear, which are very few polar bears in China. And the mandarins, of course,
which are not, has nothing to do with the Arctic. So there's all these things, you know. So that's,
I mean, we enjoy that. That's an exciting object and that, and other objects might be, you know,

(19:16):
less exciting to work. So it's, I think we're approaching it also, it's, yeah, to find the
playful, you know, ways into it. Yeah. Because we're not researchers in that sense. We're not
doing, you know, traditional, you know, research into Arctic objects where we would have to treat

(19:41):
everything the same and, you know, be very systematic and all this. We're trying that
too, but we're, yeah. So it's this playful element, I think, I hope. Yeah. And if I could
just chime in there, it's sort of, it's like Amund said, it's sort of, and what I was speaking about
earlier, it's sort of embracing this complexity and also the simplicity of sort of, you know,
choosing. So I guess we maybe, yeah, we choose these objects in a sense that we feel encapsulate

(20:07):
all sorts of things so that the, in a sense, at the level of like this orange, bright orange-colored
and flavored soda, right? That speaks to all sorts of things in a playful and also a slightly
disarming way also, right? So you're in a sense, maybe confronted to start thinking about geopolitics

(20:31):
and things in a moment that you otherwise wouldn't be necessarily when confronting a soda
bottle, right? A glass soda bottle. And that there are these layers and layers in an object like that,
because when it's called a Mandarin soda, there's also, there's the Mandarin flavor,
but there's also Mandarin Chinese. And there's also, you know, like Amund mentioned, it's not,

(20:53):
that's one of the one that catches you by surprise because it's been in production since 1936.
So 90 years, right? So it's not, and that, like you just said, wow, right? And that is the response
because people assume that it's part of the recent trendiness of the Arctic, but it's not. I mean,
if you think 1936 and China, right? A lot of people in the West have very little knowledge of what

(21:19):
China was doing or, you know, what was going on in the ground in Beijing when a local company
decided to start creating an orange fizzy drink called Arctic Ocean. And that's interesting.
Yeah. That's really interesting. Have either of you drank this, this drink?
Oh yes. Yes. Oh yeah. We, we managed to get hold of a few bottles through what was it through eBay

(21:45):
from the, yeah. Yeah. We, we've made several attempts. We tried to order from the UK that
did not come through. But we ordered from the, from, from the United States, did we?
I think, I think we did Jeremy. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah. Or we got it through a sort of
an import company. Maybe that was it. Yeah. So we managed to get like the, with UK, with the Brexit,

(22:08):
you couldn't send sort of liquids or something. That was like a no-go, but we eventually,
so, so we think we're the only, only proud possessors of Arctic Ocean drink in Norway.
And how does it taste? It's great. It is. Okay. Yeah. Really fresh. You know, it's like, it's,
it's like an orange soda, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Like, you know, just like, you know,

(22:33):
I guess you could get into the Coke, Pepsi thing, you know, so we can say it's the,
yeah. It's a good orange soda. It's good. Yeah. Okay. Okay.
And it's a good design too. It's a good logo. Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's a fantastic bottle with
sort of the, the Chinese script or letters on the one side and the, you know, the English,

(22:56):
Latin alphabet on the other and things. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. That's awesome. That's great.
So when you hear the word Arctic, what do you picture? You know, let's start with you, Jeremy.
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. What do I picture? I guess it's sort of,
I guess I start picturing all the, all the, all the things that it could otherwise be,

(23:20):
except that that picture that sort of ingrained into us otherwise. And I guess that's because
we've been doing this work and so conscious of this sort of, you know, the stereotype of the
white open blank spaces and frozen spaces and all these things. So maybe we'll stick with that soda,
right? I mean, because there is vibrant, bright colors in the Arctic as well, right? So we've

(23:41):
gravitated to like pink and bright pinks and these types of things in the Arctic. I guess,
I guess what I think of as well as like, or one of the things we've reflected around between
ourselves a lot is, is also that, that the word Arctic has become, you know, there's a bit more
of this pan Arctic or a sense of a sort of Arctic collective now maybe with certain characteristics

(24:06):
that define it, but it's also in English or in most languages in the world today, we have this
word Arctic or a variation of it, which is almost like pasta or pizza, right? This, this word that
is the same in every language and its roots then are the Greek Arctos, right? So in a sense, it's a,
it's already a very generic global, not from the Arctic word. So it's an outsider word for,

(24:32):
which was also a speculative word for the ancient Greeks, right? This, this idea of a land in the
far North based on understanding of the stars and the, and the sky and this association with Arctos
being the sort of the great bear and things. So I don't know, that's not really a concrete answer
at all. That's very abstract. So I just, I see all these sort of, I see all these sort of discourses

(24:55):
and these stereotypes going around and I see confusion and, and, and interest. Yeah.
I think that, that, that term is, it's very strong for, for most people and including myself,
that there are these, these images of, of the white, white, open, unpopulated.

(25:17):
And this whole project is sort of about making that, making nuances to that. But I, I think,
I think that those are very, very strong images in, in people's heads. And, and today maybe also,
you know, more and more connected to these geopolitical issues in the Arctic, the Arctic

(25:43):
as a contested place, Arctic as a, where the superpowers are, are, are competing of,
about influence and, but yeah, I mean, this, this, this idea of the, of, of, of the frontier,
we have this huge conference, which is exactly, no, it was over maybe yesterday in Tromsø in the

(26:05):
North of Norway, which is called Arctic Frontiers, has had a lot of critique because of that,
had a lot of critique because of that name, because it's, it's exactly using that idea of
the Arctic or the North as this frontier, you know, where civilization is, is behind you and
what's in front of you is this open, unclaimed territory open for, for, yeah, for investors and,

(26:34):
and yeah, to be conquered in a way.
How different is that image you both just described from what you see it being used to
represent commercially? Yeah, I would, I guess I would say that all those, that stereotypes of like

(26:58):
the pristine untouched wilderness and, you know, sort of untrodden snow, you're the first person
to discover all these like myths and stereotypes of discovery and finding and, and open expanses
just available for extraction, whether that's resource extraction or own personal extraction.

(27:18):
I think that's precisely what the, the marketing does just based on. So it's sort of like, it's
all those sort of stereotypes of what the Arctic, and that's deeply entrenched culturally as well
with the sort of, you know, the eras of Arctic exploration and things. So I think the sort of that,
that outsider view of the Arctic is very much the one that drives a lot of marketing. And then

(27:41):
interestingly, I'm not, it's, we've got to point out as well that a lot of that marketing work is,
or we've used the term almond came with this term, like the self-exaltification, right? So,
so it's not just outside stereotypes either. A lot of, a lot of people in the Arctic knowingly like

(28:02):
promote these images and associations as well. So, but that seems to be, I mean, at least here in,
in Tromsø, the North of Norway, it's all about, you know, Northern lights and, and untouched nature
and, you know, last frontier and wilderness and all these things, you know, almost like,
and that you're the, you're the only person having this experience. And the first one,

(28:27):
this experience being sold, sold in like mass quantities, which is a very interesting sort of
paradox. It is. Yeah. And in terms of also products, it's, it's this reoccurring image
of something that's clean and pure. So you have lots of, yeah, chewing gum, deodorants,

(28:50):
being Arctic, being pure, pure Arctic refreshment. Of course the cold, yeah.
Eucalyptus chewing gum from the Arctic. Eucalyptus and mint seem to be these two main
flavors associated with Arcticness. And of course the orange, like the Mandarin. So,

(29:11):
so there's this bizarre, like freshness and sort of, you know, Arctic blast or sort of breath
mints and, and different things that, and eucalyptus bizarrely being for me, eucalyptus is
like koalas and koala and Australia, right. It's my first association, but it's a fresh sort of,
you know, blast of freshness sort of thing that happens. And then I guess there's the

(29:36):
other narrative of sort of like, you know, ruggedness, you know, with like different
types of boots and, and outdoor products, things that are, can handle extremes, right? So you have
this like freshness narrative going on and then you have this sort of extremes and like hardship
and manliness and ruggedness and durability as a sort of mainstay as well that we see in these

(30:01):
products. Yeah. Why do you think the word Arctic has become so commercially powerful throughout
history and has it evolved? The reason why it is a powerful word or concept must, I think has
have to do with the fact that it's, it's an unknown area. So it's sort of, you can fill it

(30:24):
with whatever you want, right. Sitting in this eucalyptus chewing gum that's, that's manufactured.
I'm not sure if it's manufactured in, but at least sold in Greece. Yeah. From there, you can
imagine the Arctic being what, whatever you like in a way. So there have probably been, you know,

(30:44):
throughout history, less, what's the word? You haven't been, yeah, less correction from,
from, from real life Arctic. So I think I, I would guess that's one of the,
one of the reasons at least. Yeah. I think, I mean, we're, we of necessity need to sort of,

(31:12):
you know, dig into that a bit. There is, the Arctic is, you know, very bound up or like most
places in the world, you've got the, the people who call a certain part of the earth home, right.
You know, and then the sort of, and of course the Arctic, I guess, is maybe bound up in a lot
of that sort of last frontier of Western European colonialism, right. As a sort of,

(31:36):
as sort of the last uncharted at, you know, at that moment in, in, in history, European Western
centric history, that it's, you know, after all of the U.S., what is now the United States had
been colonized and taken over, you know, through different violent means and, and, and, and these

(31:57):
world powers, it was sort of the Arctic was maybe the, was in fact one of the less charted territories
still, right. And then there was these race, races for the poles. And of course, Norway has been,
had a large part of Norway's national image is from this, like, you know, success in this sort
of racing for the poles with Amundsen and Nansen and these people. So it definitely, it, it has had

(32:23):
that, you know, there's this actually centuries, not just decades, but you know, some, a good few
centuries there of this sort of popular cultural imagination, at least in sort of Western European
North American context, which has really entrenched the Arctic as this, as this sort of myth and this

(32:45):
image. And those types of stereotypes, they, they have a hold, right. Cause they have such long
roots stretching back that they, they, and they've been reiterated so many times in, you know, the
popular culture of the time. So in, you know, Victorian England, that was then these different

(33:06):
diorama shows and all sorts of different things that no longer exist. Right. And today, today it's
so, you know, there's a whole, we haven't gotten into that yet, Amund, we might do, but there's a,
there's a whole slew of like, if you like, look at film, film names that have Arctic in them,
right. There's like, there's all these Arctic Armageddon, Arctic Apocalypse, Arctic, it's all

(33:29):
this. And, and, and also other things, there's that Sweet Tooth, the sort of one of the Marvel,
like, like comic, if Netflix has done a version of it now, where, you know, what these like pandemic
type of like, and again, the Arctic then plays a role there. It's like way up in, in, you know,
maybe Alaska is that, that's then again, this site. And again, this, these Arctic explorer

(33:54):
myths from the 1800s, 1900s, they resurface again, as like the site of maybe some cure to a pandemic
or the source of some pandemic. So the Arctic continues to really have a hold on the cultural
imagination. And then primarily as a sort of fiction and an outside construct, which then

(34:14):
makes it maybe difficult, like Amund said, for the sort of corrective, like corrective stories
of the people who indeed live there and call it home to sort of break through the mainstream
history. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, there aren't that many people to do that, call the Arctic

(34:35):
their home. And there are vast areas with no people at all. And yeah, that's how it is.
What I'm thinking here is a lot of this, if not, most of it is about storytelling. And it's about
who's telling the story about these places that they don't necessarily belong to. And it seems like

(35:05):
when those people, those organizations, states do that, it devalues those places. But also,
isn't that a little bit of how we make sense of the world is we tell these stories about these
places. So what would happen if we weren't telling stories about these places? How would they exist?

(35:33):
And how would they exist in our minds? I guess one of the huge discussions now going on inside
of the Arctic and especially connected to indigenous people is, of course, that what exactly
what you're saying, who gets to tell the story and what stories are being told. So it's about

(35:54):
reclaiming the power to tell the story of a place, I think. It's not about not telling a story.
But it's about, again, as you said, what stories are told, what kind of stories are told and who
gets to tell them and what stories are listened to as well. So yes, I mean, we do tell stories.

(36:16):
That's what we do as a species. And then I think we'll continue to do that. Yeah, but of course,
we're telling stories about ourselves. And then we're telling stories about others that we
don't know that much about. And of course, in the Arctic, that's been the

(36:40):
mode of operation that someone from the outside has come, has traveled in and then
had some experiences and then told that story to the world.

(37:58):
So does the word Arctic, the way it's used commercially, does it ignore the reality of the
place and the people who live there? Yeah, I would say very, very much so.
But then again, also, you know, myths often exist in the Arctic. And I think it's
It's important to nuance here as well, because a lot of that sort of

(38:25):
work... I mean, we mentioned that we collect these products simply because the things that
come from the Arctic are actually subject to change and day-to-day attention.
And we collect these things to do with Arctic systems as well.
A lot of that sort of work, I mean, we mentioned that we collect these products and we also have

(38:49):
a sort of photo documentation series going on that started off just between Amund and myself
sending pictures between each other and now it involves lots of other people sending in photos
to us as well, documenting all these instances of Arctic companies and services and occurring

(39:11):
around the world, both in the Arctic and elsewhere. And then that's a very interesting,
you know, to dig into that because it's important to nuance again and that the Arctic or this word
Arctic is used, I would say, equally but then in different ways, of course, by like extremely local,
you know, call it mom and pop, like family businesses in extremely small Arctic communities.

(39:40):
They don't get more like, if we're taking an insider perspective, it's not more,
it doesn't get more insider or genuine than, you know, Arctic plumber here outside of Tromsø,
right? There's the Arctic plumber van driving around, the Arctic electrician,
when Amund and I did a road trip back last spring when we were in Alaska and there was no end of,

(40:06):
you know, Arctic this and that companies, extremely like, you know, one person mechanic
shops with the word, you know, Arctic transmission was one we found on the drive from Anchorage to
Fairbanks on the side of the main highway there, right? And that's a very different use of the

(40:27):
word Arctic at a company level name versus, you know, like the Arctic Ocean Soda or one of our
other favorites is the Pure Arctic, which is a men's deodorant made by Colgate-Palmolive, which
is a big multinational company based in New York, right? So, and what we don't have the answer to,

(40:52):
but what we're deeply fascinated by is the choice of why there might not be a straightforward answer
or an immediate answer, but what like leads both of these very almost polar opposite types of
companies in terms of their scale and their reach and their maybe ambitions to turn to this word

(41:13):
Arctic, you know, as a sort of identifying marker. And at times it seems like almost
polar opposite trajectories. So there's stuff happening at like maybe from the grassroots and
going almost as a sort of marker of like genuine place-based locality. And then there's this sort

(41:36):
of multinational, like, you know, capitalism with a capital C use of the word Arctic. And these two
things inhabit the same time in space and sort of glide past each other and perhaps, you know,
bump into each other in places as well. And they probably also affect each other, right? Because

(42:01):
that's been very clear in the North of Norway, that there's been a trend in naming things
Arctic the last years. And where does that come from? Is that, you know, you see the other
Arctic products around you, but you also see the global craving for the Arctic.

(42:23):
So it's, these things affect each other also both ways and always.
Yeah, it's sort of like a call and response type of dynamic. And you're not quite, it's not quite
sure which one started what and what is a response to what or a provocation to something else or

(42:46):
what is a sort of, you know, a power play of something from the outside coming in and absolutely
steamrolling local interests versus local interests reclaiming or taking back power and the
right to define things and self-definition and self-determination. And all these things are sort
of mixed together and bouncing around within and around this word Arctic. And that's what

(43:09):
keeps it so fascinating, maybe.
When do you think the word Arctic stopped being a geographic descriptor and started becoming
a marketing adjective?
Yeah, I'm a bit of a nerd on some of these things. I think if I'm not wrong, I mean, I think it's,

(43:30):
you know, at least, or it's partly, it's slightly difficult to separate the two.
Or it's partly, it's slightly difficult to separate these things because, like Omin was
saying, you know, the stereotypes do exist for a reason. So that the Arctic, you know,
it's not wrong that the Arctic gets a bit packaged and branded as being cold and these things,

(43:52):
because there is some, there is some very real geographical conditions at play there.
So that it has been a term that is so closely associated with the North. And then at a
linguistic level, for a very long time, at least in English, it has been a substitute.
It can be, its meaning has as a synonym, as an adjective to say, oh, that's absolutely Arctic.

(44:15):
Or you can say that's completely Baltic, right? These type of words, they mean cold or freezing,
right? So they both, they take on a secondary meaning, but that's not too far removed from
the geographical meaning. And in this case, they go hand in hand. So, but I would say that the word
Arctic, in terms of just general use as an adjective, meaning cold and freezing and things,

(44:37):
it's probably been around since, like, I don't know, I'd say a good handful of centuries,
actually, from 1600s. So it has had these, like, long standing associations with
North geography, but then, you know, increasingly just becoming a stand in for something cold,
and then harsh and frozen, and maybe, you know, uninhabitable and all these stereotypes that

(45:03):
aren't correct. And that's right, because, of course, people do live in the Arctic.
So, but it becomes then increasingly entrenched as this, but then it gets, yeah, so, but that
the new capitalization of this as being the exotic, alluring place that you
indeed want to visit for tourism, that is a much more recent phenomenon.

(45:26):
And also the use, the use inside the Arctic of the term Arctic, that's pretty recent, too,
wouldn't you say, Jeremy? Yeah, at least in this part of the, like, yeah, this sort of
understanding of being part of something that other people call the Arctic. Yeah, exactly. In
the north of Norway is a recent enough, it used to be, you know, I guess it used to be everything

(45:51):
was called the northernmost this or that in the world. Okay, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So,
because now we're, one of the things that we see here is that
art institutions, when they take an English name, they always include the word Arctic.
It's in the Arctic Arts Festival, it's the Arctic Museum, it's the Arctic, you know,

(46:15):
symphony orchestra. Yeah. And, and that is, I would say, maybe just 10 or 15 years old.
So that's very recent that it's become this term that we use here, or people of the north
use here to describe themselves or to sell themselves or to brand themselves.

(46:35):
Yeah, so it's sort of, yeah, because it was, I remember, I think my first time coming through,
like this part of where Tromsø where I'm based now in the like, the late 90s.
You know, I was amused at that time by all the, you know, it was almost like every single company
had the tagline, the northernmost and then fill in the blank, you know, in the world,

(46:57):
whether that was the northernmost brewery or the northernmost plumber or whatever, right. And now
that has become the some of the fun we have with our project, what we say between ourselves,
Amund and I, is that this is, this is the project, it's the gift that never stops giving,
because we just keep finding that, you know, it's like almost going out picking berries in the
Arctic. Once you've like tuned in and calibrated to see the blueberries or the lingonberries or

(47:21):
crowberries or whatever, then you just start seeing Arctic everywhere, right. And it's,
it's literally like you can fill in the blank, Arctic, and then you name it as a type of company
or product or service is almost bound to, if it's not already existing, it's going to be on the
market tomorrow is the feeling is the sense we get, right. And that's really quite, quite a

(47:42):
fascinating thing to see the way it's been that it has really exploded as a sort of phenomenon
of both like culture and marketing that go hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah.
Something that I was just thinking, as you both were saying northernmost, that word,

(48:04):
it comes off like a sideshow word to me, something that you're driving on the highway,
and you see a billboard, and it says, you know, the northernmost dinosaur skull,
or something like that, you know, and you go and see it, something like a circus attraction.
And then, you know, I guess, thinking from a marketing perspective,

(48:28):
Arctic seems a little bit more identity driven, where someone could be like, you know,
I'm from the Arctic, rather than I'm from the northernmost country or region.
Yeah, possibly, or that it's almost become maybe it's a it's an evolvement. So it's still,

(48:51):
it's still encapsulates that idea of northernmost, I think, because, you know,
it's sort of, at least when you see that, at a tourist level industry, right, it's like all these,
and, of course, we know this sort of Norwegian Nordic Scandinavian context, the best,
you know, that line, that fictional line, the Arctic Circle, right, that becomes a big

(49:13):
demarcator, right, being there and above there, or what, you know, what is the furthest north
point of mainland Europe in Norway, right, these type of things, they continue to have this meaning
and this allure. So I think maybe, maybe the word Arctic has also carried with it this northernmost
idea, but in a not quite the sort of sideshow sort of way that you pointed to there. But I think it

(49:39):
has somehow, maybe it's like, cannibalized that a bit as well, the sort of... Okay, just rebranded.
Yeah, or it sort of carries it on. I think it's like baked into the world, word partly. So I think
you get that, you get that as part of the word for the people who want that association. I think
it's still there. Yeah. Okay. Don't you also think, Jeremy, that the terms also are a bit

(50:05):
different, because the northernmost something, that's sort of, you can compete over that, but
there can be only one northernmost of something. Yeah. But the term Arctic is much wider,
right? Yeah. I remember being in Yellowknife in Canada and going to the

(50:29):
tourist information center, and you could get this pin saying, you know, or this diploma saying
you'd be north of the 60th parallel. And to me, that's very, very far south, right?
So it's not impressive, but that's sort of also sold as the Arctic. So the Arctic
is sort of a less, yeah, it's a wider term. Yeah. You can include more in it, less precise in a way,

(50:53):
maybe. I don't know. Yeah. At least the northernmost, yeah. And you can always be one-upped. You can
always be usurped, right, by somebody else, if your whole identity is based on being the northernmost
and somebody establishes themselves on the other side of the world, but a bit further north,

(51:13):
then you've lost your entire claim. You're out of business. Yeah, that was a good point about
the competition aspect of northernmost. And I think that that's why my mind gravitated towards
Sideshow or Circus, is because when you go to those places, you're going to see the strongest

(51:36):
man in the world. There's an element of competition there. There's nobody stronger
than this man or this person with all the tattoos. Nobody has more tattoos than this person.
Yeah, nobody has more north than this place. Exactly, yeah. That's a good one. We've got

(51:56):
the most quantity of north you can ask for here. Yeah. So, I don't know. I feel like
my gut feeling in our engagement with this sort of Arctic phenomenon is that there seems to be
degrees of Arctic as well. You know, some people really maybe ramp up their claim to... I think

(52:19):
Arcticness is also a sort of a value thing that some people, you know, market more Arcticness
than others, whatever that might be. And they try to package it up into something that can be
amplified and hamstered away. Yeah. Okay. So, the exhibition, Real Arctic, moves between artwork,

(52:45):
archive, souvenir, performance, and commodity. Why was it important for the project to
take so many forms instead of settling into a single stable one?
I think that the concept of the Arctic, as we've now been touching

(53:07):
from many sides, sort of invites different forms. And I think also for us, it's fun
and enjoyable to work in different forms. So, that's part of the answer. And then also that

(53:29):
because we're now in a museum that also adds new aspects and new ways of looking at this
project because of the way museums usually relate to objects and commercial products.

(53:55):
So, that's also a frame that for us was interesting to dive into. You know, we're
exhibiting all these consumer products that everybody can go and buy. And we have these
very fun discussions with the technical department at the museum that wants to, you know, glue
all of these objects to the shelves so that nobody will steal them. And we're saying, you know,

(54:19):
it's fine if somebody takes them. It doesn't matter. Just buy a new one at Walmart.
But also the concept of, you know, yeah, the concept of selling and exhibiting and
what's sold in the museum shop and what, you know, where are those, yeah, that whole thing about art

(54:41):
and commercial products and the commodification of art and all of these things that are meat in
that museum space, which is fun to explore. Yeah, I just, yeah, it's enjoyable to work with
all these different formats. And I think also for the audience that's good. Yeah, I think so, yeah.

(55:05):
Yeah, and I can chime in there a bit. I guess it's maybe a way that Amund and myself,
also before we started collaborating on this project, we have tended to work in these ways,
in different ways, but this having this sort of multifaceted sort of dynamic changing approach,
which allows for change and shifting perspectives of these things is maybe a sort of, yeah,

(55:32):
is a way we're used to working. And it's also ties back to maybe how we started this conversation
with a bit that, you know, opening up the possibility and space for critique and critical
work, right, that you're able to sort of take different, play different roles and be different
things in different contexts. And that's very important because we're engaging with the Arctic

(55:54):
and then I guess at an artistic level as well, we are asking questions back to the art world and to
ourselves and our own artistic practice as well, trying to be self-reflective and self-critical.
So having this sort of multi-dimensional thing that we now, you know, as a totality or collective
is called real Arctic is a useful tool in a sense as a total package to be able to try to

(56:20):
investigate what we're trying to investigate and to avoid stagnating or, you know, avoid stasis as
well so that we can continue to push ourselves to keep thinking and rethinking the work we're doing
and allows us to also engage with different contexts and sites in different ways. So like

(56:40):
Armen was talking about now with Anchorage Museum, that is to date the most sort of, you know,
definitely museum, museographic space we've engaged with and probably the most,
yeah, high-profile institutional museum space we probably ever will engage with, which brings very,

(57:01):
and that's a very different thing from the first time we realized this project
in Tromso, which was a much more DIY sort of version of itself here. And all those things then
maybe give us, like Armen said earlier in our conversation, this idea of the live prototyping
or rapid prototyping, you know, doing things and seeing what happens through the doing,

(57:23):
sort of this sort of feedback loops where you create something, you put it out there in the
world, you engage with audiences and you see what that generates as a response and then you
keep working with that onwards. And I guess on a sort of, on a personal

(57:44):
background level for me, I work mostly with performing arts staged work and that is always
multi-dimensional and multi-, yeah, it contains all these different parts.
So it's very natural for me to approach it in the same way, I think, even if it's an exhibition.

(58:12):
I found a year for you. So about this, about the question about the Arctic and the term Arctic,
Tromso University changed its name from the University of Tromso to the Arctic University
or the Arctic University of Norway in 2013. So that was sort of this, that's a huge

(58:36):
institution that might be some kind of, what's that, Værhånda, Jeremy, what's the word in
Norwegian? I don't know, some sort of indicator.
Værhånda, that's the thing that's on top of the church, you know, showing the wind,

(58:57):
the direction of the wind. The weather vane.
Oh, weather vane. The compass maybe too.
Yeah, sort of, yeah. So maybe that's sort of, yeah, that's maybe signaling a shift at least,
2013 or the sort of concept of the Arctic. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, something
I just thought of as you guys were talking is, you guys seem like you have a very good

(59:24):
working relationship with each other. And I'm wondering what kind of conversations happen
or what do those conversations sound like when you find an Arctic product and you're thinking,
oh, this would be good to add to the exhibition, or this belongs within that Arctic
conversation. What do you, you know, how do you approach it? How do you

(59:51):
bring it to each other? How do you accept it or decline it?
To me, I think it's very, it's based on intuition. It's not very systematic.
But I think we share sort of the same fascination for these objects. So yeah, like Jeremy said,

(01:00:14):
we send each other pictures and we just talk about it. But also in a cooperation like this,
it's, I think it's also important, you know, we don't necessarily need to agree all the time,
and that's also fine. So we're also doing sort of, we're also splitting up the work a bit. So,

(01:00:39):
I take more care of something and Jeremy takes more care of something.
Yeah. And then I would guess, I would say as well that like, for me personally, it's been
like having this cooperative work together with Almond. It's sort of
having a sort of sounding board to sort of test ideas. So I feel like we both are

(01:01:00):
with the use of each other, sort of also sharpening and refining how we're working
with this project in ways that you wouldn't get to, I don't think, on your own, right? Because
your capacity to sort of self-edit what you do and sort of be reflective around what you're doing

(01:01:21):
isn't nearly as great as the capacity to do that in a collective and cooperatively with another
voice. And that's been very useful. So also this is a very iterative project so that we've done it
multiple times now and it keeps changing and we keep also finding out more precisely,
or at least we think we get more precise, or at least it changes in terms of what we're doing and

(01:01:45):
why and at least what we think we are doing or the intent and the intentionality with the project
gets sort of focused in different ways and brought sharper into focus through sort of dialogue and
through sort of, yeah, bringing something to the table and what about this? And then, you know,
it can open up all sorts of, so like now we're at one of the most recent examples of the sort

(01:02:07):
of detail questioning and, you know, final work for the museum with the anchorage display is like,
you know, what information to contain on the labels around these objects, right? And that
sort of unearths important artistic and intellectual questions as well that we then
solve through dialogue and try to figure out, you know, is this what we're doing or not?

(01:02:32):
And also that it came out of this, just this fun interest, like you said, we started to send,
just send images of things we encountered with the word Arctic. So yeah, again, this playfulness.

(01:02:54):
If visitors leave the exhibition unsure what feels authentic, what feels marketed,
and what feels unresolved, would you consider that a success?
I would say yes, if they leave also curious about those questions.

(01:03:19):
If there's some imagination that's been sparked or some curiosity around what is what,
and you leave with those thoughts in your head, I think that's, that's good. Yeah, I mean, we've
adopted as a positive word that we're aiming for a degree of what we call necessary confusion.

(01:03:43):
So, and I think that's an apt term and something we do see as positive. So,
I think confusion in the, you know, with the, with the side dish of humor and, you know,
provocative in this, in a sort of well-intended way as well, and a slightly disarming and

(01:04:06):
discomforting way is definitely a good thing to sort of invite to further reflection and
onwards, you know, independent thought and reflection and sort of engaging with things
in one's own ways and own, you know, one's own points of view. I think that's, of course,

(01:04:29):
of course, what you hope for from engaging with an exhibition.
But it's also a fine line, right? Because confusion can also mean that you sort of,
you feel there's something you're missing out on, something that you don't understand.
And we definitely don't want that. Yeah. I think there's loads of people visiting,

(01:04:51):
loads of people visiting museums and art that feel sort of a bit stupid. Yeah. Meeting all this,
you know, all this content and all these texts and all these reflections and you go, oh, yeah.
And that's not a good confusion, I think. So we need to aim for the good, the fruitful confusion.

(01:05:13):
Fruitful confusion. Yeah. Yeah. It's a delicate balance in that, but we can, from past experience,
we have no idea what will happen. We're hoping for good things in Anchorage, of course,
and engaging with audiences there. But we have had that interesting sort of
element of like the, let's call it the real and the fictive, you know, and fiction and

(01:05:38):
the real world meet. And so we have had, for example, with those deodorants we mentioned earlier,
that people have not, that certain people that have visited the previous installments of our
project have thought that we've also designed and created these deodorants as a fiction.
OK. But they are, they are sort of hyper real. They are very real. And that's interesting to

(01:06:01):
see, because then it's almost like it's this everyday men's deodorant product that's on the
shelves of the grocery stores in Norway. Right. But it's no, but people aren't seeing it. Right.
And it's named Pure Arctic. And you can't, we can't, we couldn't make that up even if we tried.
Right. But so suddenly that the very, very real thing becomes, can be interpreted as a fiction

(01:06:26):
and vice versa. And I think we, you know, we'd like to, to keep holding on to the idea that that
is inherently a productive and positive situation to be in. And then it's, but then it's important
to be able to have those conversations to be able to say, no, no, no. But that, that is,
that's not a fiction that is real. So, so yeah. So, so a degree of confusion,

(01:06:51):
but not hopefully not confusion that leads to frustration and off-putting people. Yeah.
All this talk about deodorant, I was thinking about the deodorant that I have,
and it's called Fiji and it's old spice. And so exactly. So this is, you know,

(01:07:12):
on a, on a different part of the world, it has commodified the location, the place.
And I've never been to Fiji, but my perception of Fiji, you know, is, is my deodorant.
I mean, and photos of course, that I've seen and, and Fiji water, but,

(01:07:33):
but, but Fiji water fits in with the deodorant as well. So it's, it's just this,
this, this image that gets passed around the world and
weirdly homogenizes it and devalues it. But then also, you know, now the humor that

(01:07:57):
you both keep talking about, you know, that's clicking in with me because that, that seems
like a great way to interpret it or, or a great way to absorb it is this is so outrageous,
you know, that my perception of Fiji comes from the deodorant that I have.
I mean, that's kind of funny. Yeah, it's, it's funny. And you said,

(01:08:21):
you said, you know, outrageous and all that is true. And I guess one thing we have
kept pushing as well as a line of thinking. So that's, if we stick to this Colgate-Palmolive
deodorant, the pure Arctic, which has been a big mainstay of our, of our work, you know,
at a linguistic level, you know, it's that it's called pure Arctic and pure then very quickly

(01:08:41):
becomes a synonym for real, genuine, authentic, right? These types of things. So it sort of
stakes a claim to being like the actual real Arctic. And it's, it's completely not in a sense,
it's, it's multinational, but at the same time, that's a very real version of the Arctic, right?
Because there are many different Arctic. So this sort of multinational geopolitical resource

(01:09:05):
extraction commodified Arctic is one very real, hyper real version of the Arctic that competes
and clashes and interacts with and overlaps other totally different versions of the Arctic.
So there's a lot of humor, and then there's also a lot of seriousness there. And when those two
things meet each other, then, then we feel we're onto something that's worth them lingering on and

(01:09:29):
reflecting on for a while. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Palmolive, they claim the deodorant has a tundra scent.
Really? Yeah. We've tried that a bit, you know, having people smell it and what comes to your
mind? I can't say if I know, I don't think they're very successful if that's sort of what they're

(01:09:52):
trying to achieve. When you imagine a future where the Arctic is talked about, more honestly,
what would need to change first? Language, institutions, or the people telling the stories?

(01:10:13):
I would say all of the above, but it has a lot to do with who's telling the stories.
Obviously. And when people from the Arctic are telling the stories, they will choose the language
they see fit. And also when the people of the Arctic,

(01:10:37):
to a larger degree, are able to control the institutions of the Arctic,
or these things go together. Yeah.
Mm hmm. So all of that will have to change.
If the goal is for it to be a more true image, maybe we're fine, you know, with your deodorant

(01:11:04):
being Fiji. Maybe that's all okay. When you decide to visit Fiji, you'll get another
impression of Fiji. Maybe that's also fine.
I wanted to go for the all of the above, multiple choice answer as well on that with language,

(01:11:27):
and institutions, and who's telling the stories. I think these things go hand in hand. I mean,
I think regardless of where that change happens, of course,
there's maybe an urgent enough need for there to be some change, given, I mean, we've all had our,
been reminded, it's been very sharply brought into focus with current political situations,

(01:11:50):
right? But that there are these very unhelpful narratives, and myths, and stereotypes of the
unfortunately continue to circulate in terms of being, you know, unpopulated, available
zones for resource extraction, and these type of things. And all this rhetoric of, you know,

(01:12:10):
unlivable, and cold, and, you know, that those do have, or can have very serious consequences
for people's lives. And that's something, you know, obviously, we'd like to see
that change would come quicker in those areas. But I think, yeah,
it's definitely a combination of change on many levels.

(01:12:34):
Yeah, and I think it's good you're mentioning that, Jamie, because now it's fun with the
deodorant from Fiji, but of course, these issues have implications. And as we see today,
in today's current political situation, that what idea we have of a people and a place matter.

(01:12:56):
So it's very, the underlying issues here are very serious, even if we intend to have the
project being also playful. It's about power, it's about who gets to decide,
and who gets to tell the stories, and what voices are heard.

(01:13:17):
Well, Amin and Jeremy, those are all the questions I have for you guys.
I want to thank you for your time, and for creating art that doesn't offer easy answers,
but asks questions about how the Arctic is seen and understood.
Yeah, thank you. It was a pleasure.

(01:13:52):
For more information about the Anchorage Museum, visit anchoragemuseum.org.
This podcast was produced by me, Cody Liska, for the Anchorage Museum.
With additional help from Julie Decker.
Chatter Mark's music is produced by Keys Open Doors.