June 25, 2026 • 82 mins
Tom Kortbeek and Roos Meerman are the founders of Fillip Studios, a Netherlands-based interdisciplinary design studio whose work sits at the intersection of art, science, technology, and human experience. Together, Tom and Roos have spent more than a decade exploring what happens when artists, designers, engineers and scientists are invited into the same conversation. Their projects explore everything from human connection to healthcare to public ethics, environmental responsibility, and the future role of design in society. There’s Tactile Orchestra, an interactive installation that turns touch into collaborative music; there’s Kozie, a sensory object that’s being used in dementia and Alzheimer's care; Holland's Next Embryo invites the public to grapple with the ethical questions surrounding reproductive technology and genetic selection; Commissioned by Earth explores what changes when the planet itself is treated as the client; Arabidopsis Symphony transforms plant biology into an immersive musical experience. And other projects that challenge audiences to reconsider the relationship between people, nature, materials, technology, and the systems that shape our lives.
But beneath all of those projects is a simpler question: How do people come together? Not through argument or instruction, but through touch, play, curiosity, wonder, and shared experience. It's a question that sits at the center of much of Fillip Studios' work and is reflected in its guiding philosophy: Impact Through Wonder. In the studio, this starts with creating an atmosphere where creators are comfortable to explore and discover. Here, Tom and Roos’ role involves helping people work through a creative process, uncovering new questions and perspectives along the way. The result is a body of work that invites people to come together, and that some of our most meaningful insights aren't always something we think our way into, they can also be something we feel our way toward.
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(00:00):
We really like to see it as an embodied immersive experience where you step into a space where
(00:19):
you are aware that you have a physical body that experiences physical sensations and that
you also are in that space together with other physical bodies and so you have to relate
to that and I think the fact that a larger and larger part of our life is disconnected
(00:40):
from that physical reality is I think a sad thing because it doesn't recognize the fact
that we are still physical beings with physical needs and physical sensations to be able to
connect with other people.
(01:01):
We are made for that so I think it's really important.
That was Tom Kordbeck and he and Rose Meerman are the founders of Philips Studios, a Netherlands-based
interdisciplinary design studio whose work sits at the intersection of art, science,
(01:21):
technology and human experience.
Together Tom and Rose have spent more than a decade exploring what happens when artists,
designers, engineers and scientists are invited into the same conversation.
Their projects explore everything from human connection to healthcare to public ethics,
(01:47):
environmental responsibility and the future role of design in society.
There's Tactile Orchestra, an interactive installation that turns touch into collaborative
music.
There's Cozy, a sensory object that's being used in dementia and Alzheimer's care.
(02:09):
Human's Next Embryo invites the public to grapple with the ethical questions surrounding
reproductive technology and genetic selection.
Commissioned by Earth explores what changes when the planet itself is treated as the client.
Arabidopsis Symphony transforms plant biology into an immersive musical experience.
(02:35):
And other projects that challenge audiences to reconsider the relationship between people,
nature, materials, technology and the systems that shape our lives.
But beneath all of those projects is a simpler question.
(02:56):
How do people come together?
Not through argument or instruction, but through touch, play, curiosity, wonder and
shared experience.
It's a question that sits at the center of much of Phillips Studio's work and is reflected
(03:16):
in its guiding philosophy, impact through wonder.
In the studio, this starts with creating an atmosphere where creators are comfortable
to explore and discover.
Here Tom and Rose's role involves helping people work through a creative process, uncovering
(03:38):
new questions and perspectives along the way.
The result is a body of work that invites people to come together and that some of our
most meaningful insights aren't always something we think our way into.
They can also be something we feel our way toward.
(04:02):
So here they are, Tom Kordbeck and Rose Meerman.
Welcome to Chatter Marks, a podcast of the Anchorage Museum, dedicated to exploring Alaska
and the circumpolar North through the creative and critical thinking of ideas, past, present
(04:23):
and future.
My name is Cody Liske and I'll be your host.
Your collaboration began around 2014 and quickly led to the ideas that became Tactile Orchestra.
(04:50):
What did each of you recognize in the other that your own practice was maybe missing at
the time?
Well, I think what I was, so I graduated from conservatory doing music theater, focusing
(05:10):
on things like sound and music.
And I was really looking into things of how could I explore the experience of music in
a nonlinear way.
So normally, of course, you listen to music and you start at zero and you go to three
(05:30):
minutes, 30 seconds, and then it ends.
So it's quite a linear experience.
And I was figuring out how can we explore it in a more spatial way or just all the other
things.
And then that I think I found in Rose with her background as a product designer, and
of course, she thinks naturally in a spatial way, in a physical way.
(05:55):
And I think, yeah, so tapping into other senses, so to say, I think, yeah, that really brought
the collaboration with Ro, yeah, on my part.
Yeah, yeah.
At that moment, I was experimenting with fabrics and conductive threads.
(06:16):
And so really from the material side, how can you approach a fabric in a different way?
And how can you use stroking to make sound or make music?
But I couldn't, yeah, the technical material side was my knowledge that I could use, but
(06:37):
meeting when I met Tom, this really got to a new stage where music and the experience
of this fabric became another perspective.
So that was a really good collaboration.
I think the best partnerships are born out of honesty.
(07:04):
So I'm wondering, were there any early disagreements that ended up defining how you two work together?
Well, I don't know.
So yeah, also, to be honest, we also have a personal relationship.
(07:28):
So also, we live together.
It's really honest.
Yeah, so this establishing of the concept of Takta Orchestra was actually on the first date.
We created that idea on the first date.
This was really cool.
(07:48):
And I think from the moment we met each other, we really respect each other's discipline.
I'm not a great product designer.
And I know a lot about music.
And I think it works for Rose vice versa, that she is, in my opinion, a very good product
(08:11):
designer.
And I know she knows a bit less about music than I do.
And I think this situation really helps in respecting each other's opinions.
But on the same time, I think also, because the situation we are talking about is, I think,
(08:33):
12, 14 years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
And of course, in the beginning collaboration, you also have to really get to know each other
and learn that it's not a fight.
Creating a concept is not a battle of who has the right to do what.
It's a battle of who has the best ideas.
(08:54):
But if learning that if the other is not maybe already really fond of your idea, then maybe
it's not a good idea yet.
And then you have to work on this together instead of trying to defend your own idea
and try to win.
So it's not a battle.
(09:15):
It's a collaboration where you together try to build, to make the idea into a great work.
And so, but that's also a process, I think, that we learned that from each other.
Yeah, and a lot of trust in each other's knowledge and background, of course, but we
(09:39):
know from each other's faces when we don't like an idea from each other.
Can you describe what those faces look like?
Funny question.
Yeah, I see.
(10:00):
I think, yeah, yeah.
Eyes in this case, I think, speak the most.
So then, yeah, when yourself are very happy with an idea you came up with and you explain
it to the other and you see the face being a bit doubtful, then you know, okay, it's
(10:21):
not good enough yet or we have to talk about it.
And then, yeah.
We both can be very enthusiastic when we have, in our own opinion, have a great idea.
But if the other is not very enthusiastic, then you, yeah, you know it.
You have to come up with a better idea.
Yeah, yeah.
There seems like there is an element of nonverbal communication as well, you know, with those
(10:47):
facial expressions.
So maybe one of you is conveying an idea that you are, you have a lot of energy behind and
then the other one is like, you know, raises an eyebrow, you know, okay, maybe I need to
think this one through more.
Yeah, definitely.
And so, yeah, that's, I think that's nice actually to be aware of that.
(11:09):
We learn that from each other.
Also, when we are in a meeting with others, just seeing how Rose looks or is expressing
in her face.
Yeah, that tells us a lot of, tells me a lot of what she's thinking and yeah, how the
(11:30):
idea is being perceived in Rose's mind.
Yeah.
And that's nice, yeah.
You know, one of the questions behind tactile orchestra seems to be, how do we create with
people we've never met?
(11:52):
Why has that question become so important to you?
Well, for me, that's about when this was all starting in the Netherlands, there was in
the government and policy field, there was this thing called participation society.
(12:13):
So everyone has to step in and do his or her part and then work together to make it possible
because a lot of services became too expensive for the government to pay on its own.
So we have to step in as a society.
And I was just wondering, how should we do that?
(12:34):
What is, how is a participation society looks like?
How does that look like?
And how does that work?
And how do we create together?
And how do we create together?
Also, for the main part, if you don't know other people, and how can it be so easy?
(12:55):
How can we make it so easy, so that it also is also fun, or is also can really can create
something beautiful?
Or can you maybe also destroy it?
Or, and so these are a bit big of the bigger thoughts behind it.
But at the end of the day, of course, it's also just a nice experience to join, to be
(13:23):
joined with other people to be experienced.
Yeah, to connect.
Yeah.
So with this, that is a bit of actually my bigger thought about behind the concept.
Yeah, I think it's also in every work that we do, it's based on the idea that you that
you can, we always invite people to explore and to find something new, because we really
(13:49):
like a process of finding something new in our own work while playing and experimenting
with techniques and technology and materials.
And it's a really a process where you explore something new, makes you feel really happy
and open for, for also finding courage in your in your own life to, to play more maybe
(14:17):
and to, and to connect more using your senses.
So that's also an important element in that how to use your senses in a different way.
Maybe we lost a bit of the connection with with our senses by using a lot of screens
all the time and talking through this through using screens.
(14:42):
Yeah, so let's get in touch with in another way.
So how to with the artworks create really low barrier experiences where you that every
everyone can can do.
Yeah, to create a sense of wonder.
Did you see a difference in how people interacted with the installation tactile orchestra based
(15:09):
on the different locations and different countries, it's been in.
Well, which was quite interesting to see is that in the US we showed it in the Cooper
Human Design Museum.
We saw a different use than in Denmark in Kolding in Trabholt museum, which was interesting
(15:30):
to see.
So, yeah, there were a lot of people in Denmark who took that time really to really explore
all this, all the sounds in the whole, in the whole installation and really spent maybe
five minutes in average with the installation.
(15:51):
While in America, in the US, it was quite more fast.
I think it was maybe approximately a few seconds that people were using tactile orchestra.
So I don't know what it means, but that was a big difference.
We saw.
(16:11):
That's very nice to see the difference in maybe I don't know culture or how they.
Sure.
Yeah, we didn't thought of that before, of course.
Yeah.
It sounds like maybe people were using the installation in ways that you didn't anticipate.
(16:33):
Definitely.
Yeah.
So that's, that's also our, always our goal.
So we always say we don't create end products.
Or we, but we create a context for people to, to explore.
And so without their, their connection and their inputs, it's nothing.
(16:58):
It's just a furry wall doing nothing, but you have to explore it.
You have to connect with it.
And that's the invitation we give to, to the users or to the visitors of the piece.
Because the aesthetic, the artistic experience, so to say, yeah, it really has to come from
(17:18):
the connection that people made with it.
And, and that's nice because then you also get unexpected reactions.
Some people move quite fast.
So some people take a lot of time to explore all the sounds together with other people.
Also, also with other works that we create.
So yeah, you cannot always predict how people will engage with it.
(17:40):
And that's also, I think the nice thing about what we're trying to create.
Yeah.
Thinking about larger questions of loneliness and mental health, do you think modern society
suffers from a lack of connection or a lack of opportunities to connect?
(18:09):
Yeah, definitely.
I think definitely that is the case.
Of course, we, we have so much options to, to, to, to really dive in the digital world
where there's so much focusing on your personal self.
So, and that, so that you really are also invited, are invited to disconnect from the
(18:34):
physical world because you have now also AI tools really asking you, hey, can I help
you?
Can I do that?
So where's the need of the, the, the, the physical order?
And, and, and then we are stepping really in the, in, with our works in the, in the
realm of immersive experiences.
And then in, in, in, in, in the narrow sense of it, you can, you, then you have, you can
(18:59):
talk about VR or augmented reality.
But we, we really like to see it as an embodied immersive experience where you step into a
space where you, where you are aware that you have a physical body that experiences
physical sensations.
And that is that, that you also are in that space together with other physical bodies.
(19:22):
And so you have to relate to that.
And I think the fact that a large, a larger and larger part of our life is disconnected
from that physical reality is, I think a sad thing because it doesn't recognize the fact
that we are still physical beings with physical needs and physical sensations to be able to
(19:51):
connect with other people.
We are made for that.
So I think it's really important.
We are working at the moment at a, on a, on a topic called home.
So it connects to this question that you asked about loneliness and how you feel at home
in a, in a city.
(20:11):
We are going to, we're going to explore how we can make or use this immersive technologies
that Tom was mentioning to enlarge the feeling of home in a city context.
So that's where we are.
Yeah.
Starting with at the moment where we work, we, yeah, we just started on that together
(20:35):
with a social design studio affect lab and, and a dance and a dance company called Introdance
and two universities.
So it's, it's quite a, a really an interesting topic and how can we, how can we use technology,
digital technology?
Yeah.
Not only for the things that we already know, but maybe yeah.
(21:00):
How to create things outside in the urban context that really make people connect more
and feel at home more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
I wonder what does it mean to enlarge the idea of home?
Does it mean, you know, you go to the park and something, maybe a piece of art kind of
(21:26):
brings this comfort of familiarity and along with that is home or is it different than
that?
Yeah, that would be a nice outcome of the project.
But also a part of the project is really explore what is a home because maybe it's also really,
(21:46):
and I think it is also really cultural defined and maybe home in the Netherlands means quite
something else than home in Alaska and maybe in Alaska also home means very different things
to a lot of different people.
So the last time I went to Alaska because we showed something in the Anchorage Museum,
(22:12):
I really came to learn about the indigenous cultures and I can imagine, I don't know,
that also in these kinds of cultures, the concept of home is really different or really
being experienced or being thought of in a different way than we are doing that.
(22:35):
And these kind of differences, that's the part we are interested in and we like to explore
that and how can we create something that also gives space to these different notions
of home and that people can really create that.
That's what I meant also when I was saying we try to create contexts where people can
(22:59):
explore and experience.
So these contexts also need to create some kind of a safety zone, but also an intuitiveness
that people really can feel that they can add something of their own to make it their home.
Yeah, so that's the thing that we're really interested in.
(23:24):
And what does home mean to you?
That's a good question.
I think besides the fact that you have a house that you can also call your home,
it's more a place where you feel safe and secure to just act and explore and not
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think too much about acting, but just do.
For now, maybe that describes it for me, that you can just be and do and not think
about what you're doing.
Yeah, I don't know how you think about it.
(24:11):
Yeah, I'm also thinking about this urban context.
How do you feel at home on the streets?
It definitely has something to do with safety and comfort, knowing
where you are and knowing that you are seen, maybe.
So home is also in the relation of others.
(24:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's nice.
Yeah.
Having eye contact on the street with others, saying hi.
Knowing that you belong somewhere, maybe, that it feels comfortable.
Yeah, that's cool.
Yeah.
And do you both start from that point of view when you're working on this project?
(24:59):
Yeah.
Conceptually, yes.
It's a bit more complex research project because we take this home concept in our title,
in a dual way.
So on the one hand, it is about home.
(25:21):
How can we make people feel at home, for example, that are not born here in the Netherlands,
but do live here?
And on the same time, it's about home.
How can we, as artists, feel at home with these new technologies?
And how can we create with that, so that we are really also comfortable in being at home?
(25:45):
In the technologies of VR and AR and other mixed reality immersive technologies,
so that we really know this language and that we can use this language to create.
So this is also an important part of the artistic research, a part of the research program.
(26:10):
So from one hand, we started this from this conceptual side,
but also from this technology.
Yeah, interesting way we can explore the technologies for future use,
but also all the time in a way we want to use it.
So not putting on a headset and that people are floating away in a digital space,
(26:37):
but still use the immersive technology to stay grounded in the physical environment,
connected with other physical bodies.
Yeah, and that's also why the dance company is also involved in this project,
because they have maybe most of everyone in the group, of course,
(27:00):
but they really have a big knowledge on how you use your body
and how to know where you are in a certain place
and how you relate to others using your body, knowing your body.
So this is a really interesting collaboration, I feel.
(27:20):
Has working with dancers changed how you design for non-dancers?
Yeah, but we want to do that more.
So, for example, another project called Linea Franca,
which is a blue line floating in space and people can touch that and it makes sounds.
(27:43):
And if more people touch the line, then it creates other sounds.
So people are invited to explore.
We also, we created that in a way that it's not just a project.
We created that in our studio and we created that also based on the aesthetic style of the line.
(28:04):
And later on, we created workshops with dancers that made a program around the art piece
to also connect refugees in a workshop to each other
and also to people that already live in our city.
And we really wondered, and that was actually maybe also the basis for the project Home
(28:29):
that we are working on right now,
that if we could have worked with this choreographer before we made the physical piece,
then it would definitely look different.
And that is, I think, we found that the most interesting part.
So that's why we also were really eager to start a project of Home
(28:51):
because we really like to see, and we're still in this process,
how that will turn out if we make physical things
that are not only made because we think they look nice
and they're perfect because we think they are,
but that we also take into account the profession of a dancer, of a mover in space.
(29:15):
And that we can take that as an input for our designs.
That is what we really are eager to explore and to make use in our future projects.
And we're doing that right now as we speak in the projects that we are now working on.
Yeah, and it's also really good to know that we are working with a choreographer, Adrian Lutijn,
(29:43):
and he has a program within the dance company where he creates performances on stage
with all kinds of people.
So their mission is, or their vision on dancing is everyone can dance.
So this choreographer knows a lot about how to not only work with professional dancers,
(30:04):
but also invite people with disabilities or people that are really, really long
or really, really short, I don't know, all kinds of different people
and connect them to professional dancers.
So he also knows how to get people into movement and connection.
(30:26):
Yeah, and the nice thing, I think, is also that he always encounters people
or he works with all these types of different body types or whatever as being professionals.
So he really puts a diverse group of trained dancers and different body type dancers.
(30:48):
For him, they're all the same.
He works as a professional on a professional dance piece.
And I think that it's also for us really inspiring to be part of in this project.
Tactile Orchestra eventually helped inspire,
(31:12):
and you might have to help me out with this, the pronunciation, Cozy?
Yes.
Yeah.
It's also meant to be cozy.
So yeah, that's why.
Yeah.
That's great.
So Cozy is used in dementia and Alzheimer's care.
What was it like to see an idea that began in an art context, find its way into a care setting?
(31:42):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, it was beautiful.
Yeah, yeah.
So our mission, we're a non-profit organization.
And so our mission is to create impact through wonder.
And yeah, this is, I think, the example of how we imagined it to be.
So we create wonder via Tactile Orchestra.
(32:05):
It's an artistic piece, but we also explore new technologies and made them public.
And so a person that experienced a version of Tactile Orchestra in Netherlands,
who was working at a healthcare institution, came to us and say,
okay, what you are doing, that's what we call multi-century healthcare.
(32:26):
Let's collaborate.
Let's explore how we can use your technology in the context of my work field,
which is taking care of elderly with dementia.
And of course, from this focus on trying to create impact through wonder,
yeah, we were really eager to explore that and to collaborate
(32:47):
and to see how we could turn this art piece into a product.
Yeah, that can mean something for someone's daily life.
Yeah, and of course, art can also mean a lot to a lot of people.
But to really make this explicit, applicable impact.
(33:11):
Yeah, that was amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know what it looks like in practice for the dementia and Alzheimer's care?
Yeah, so we created two versions of the product.
It's called the Cozy Me and the Cozy We.
(33:33):
And yeah, so the Cozy We is more like a one-on-one translation of the art piece
into some kind of a wall element that people could explore and explore sounds.
Because when you are in the Dutch context,
when you are in a healthcare institution having dementia,
(33:53):
you are in a far-developed stage of having Alzheimer's or dementia.
And so you don't get out often.
And so we try to put sounds in these walls from villages,
from outdoor experiences,
so that people also could reimagine this experience of getting outside.
(34:18):
And the other thing is called the Cozy Me.
It's a small cushion, a pillow.
And if you would cuddle with that,
then you would hear spoken messages from friends and family
or sounds that you or music that you know from the past.
So that you also literally could feel at home
(34:41):
in a place that is not really your home.
That was the goal, yeah.
Yeah, people could fill it themselves with sounds that sound familiar,
so spoken words, but also pieces of sounds, sounds of the sea.
It can be everything that reminds you back to something
(35:03):
and get into conversation or feel comfortable.
Rose, I came across a number of descriptions of your work
and they stress the process over the product.
At what point does a process become strong enough to be the work
(35:29):
rather than just the method behind it?
Good question.
Yeah, I think our outcomes or the things that we make
are always processes itself.
So we'd never design a static object or something that is finished.
So our works are always, we always design a framework
(35:54):
or a experience that can, an object or a process.
An object or an installation that is open for interaction.
So yeah, we once created a drawing machine
that creates every day a new drawing based on sounds of languages
(36:23):
that are on the verge of extinction.
So it's a machine.
We designed the process and we created the story with it.
But we didn't design the art pieces or the drawings ourselves,
but the machine made it in a way.
So we created the context and we found an interesting connection of an influence
(36:53):
and then it took place.
So it was a whole process that we designed
and it's actually the same with tactile orchestra, I would say.
So we designed a wall where people could interact with
and create sounds with each other.
But we didn't create, yeah, it's always different.
So we didn't create the one and only art piece
(37:14):
that we want people to explore,
but it's always in the context of other influences.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think maybe also the work that we create and show to people
is also, now I'm thinking how I think about it,
is to sort of try to reenact the initial wonder or awe
(37:38):
that we ourselves experienced.
Yeah.
So for example, in Aera Fabrica,
that's one of the first projects that Roos worked on.
It was a graduation piece and that turned out to be also a technology
where you can redesign 3D printed shapes.
(38:01):
But it started with Roos having a wondrous feeling
when she watched a YouTube video about the process
with someone putting a marshmallow in a vacuum chamber.
Yeah.
And I think Roos is especially good at this
(38:22):
and you recognize something where you think,
okay, here is something and we have to explore this
and then you go after it and you deep it out into something.
And then you learn along the way and you have new insights
and you create new technologies and new processes.
And then at the end, I think we try to turn that into something
(38:48):
that is an abstraction of all the things that we have learned,
but put again into one experience that comes as close as possible
to the first moment of awe or wonder that we felt when we started this process.
And also to close the circle and maybe also,
(39:10):
and that was the thing that happened with Tactile Orchestra
coming into contact with this person in healthcare situation,
so we started a process where we were wondered about something,
about in this case, for example, the participation society.
We deep that out, we turned that into something,
we took opinions on that.
(39:33):
And then we turned all of this knowledge into a very straightforward
or one abstract experience,
which is then again, a starting point for someone else
to also be wondered and to start thinking of how can I make that into something
and how can I use that in my daily practice?
(39:58):
Yeah, so this circling of us being wondered about something,
use our artistic practice and process to turn that into a vision of our own
and then turning that into an abstract experience,
so that also other people not only have to read a lot of things about what we have learned,
(40:19):
but just have this pure experience, wonder experience
that also can start something new.
Yeah, that's maybe the goal of what we're trying to do.
(41:40):
So
(42:04):
Rose, you might have to help me out with the pronunciation of this.
Let's see if I can get this one correct.
Era fabrica.
Yeah, it's good.
It's good, okay.
So when that first clicked, what surprised you more?
(42:26):
Was it the material behavior itself, the process,
or the realization that the technique could outgrow the object?
I think the moment when I found out that you could inflate these 3D printed shapes,
(42:49):
I know when it happened and that was a really fun moment,
seeing this material doing that.
And I really felt that I found something that could lead to something.
(43:09):
How often does that happen with either of you,
where you're working with a material and it surprises you?
You know, you think, wow, I didn't know this could do that.
I think this was really the only moment that I...
It doesn't happen a lot, actually.
(43:33):
There are a few moments that you feel, this is it.
Then the story with the material or the technology,
it connects all together with the things that we want to do.
But this was really a feeling of discovering something.
I don't know, I don't have that often, this feeling, this specific feeling.
(44:00):
Did you have it?
Do you recognize it?
Yeah, well, so for me, it's more about the feeling of when it clicks.
So when all the parts connect into something and that feels as a whole.
So the concept, the materialization, the experience,
that everything comes together and that you feel, okay, this is it.
(44:24):
This is how it should be.
I think that is, for me, always the feeling that I'm looking for.
And of course, you don't always reach that,
because when we reflect on things or evaluate things, then you can say,
okay, yeah, on these points, we missed it maybe a bit, but the result is cool.
(44:49):
But yeah, when you have these certain projects where everything connects
and then you think, okay, yeah, this is it, of course.
And yeah, that's a euphorious moment.
And also, at the same time, also maybe a sad moment, because then it's there.
(45:10):
So then it's done.
And I also have a lot of time, this feeling that, okay, when I experience that,
I'm done with it.
And then I can move on to the next.
And then you have to rebuild the whole thing again in a new project.
So that's also a fluid moment, or how do you say that?
Yeah.
(45:33):
So does this apply to both of you, that after you're done with a project,
there is this feeling of sadness or melancholy,
that the project that you have spent all this time working on is now finished
and it's out in the world?
Yeah, I think it's a really, it's also a really scary moment.
(45:59):
I really feel the beginning of a project where you have an idea of what it can be
and what it should be, that the thing that you create,
although it connects in a good way, you think this is it.
It's always really difficult to reach the goals that you have from the beginning,
(46:22):
from the start.
So in the beginning, the project has the most potential still.
That's, of course, also nice.
It's really nice.
You see, you feel the potential that's in it
and that you have the opportunity to get it out.
And when it's done and it's out in the open, then, yeah,
(46:42):
it's a bit stupid to say, but it has no potential anymore
because it's there already.
And then, yeah, we have to search for new potential.
So, yeah, so there may be, yeah, you can describe that maybe as melancholy,
that you think, okay, this was a nice process,
but it was a nice process and we have to start again, a new process.
(47:04):
Yeah, then the process for others begin, too.
Yeah.
It has something to do with exploring something new
and something that you haven't thought about before
or something that you cannot draw on paper.
I don't know what it is.
But maybe that's also nice that we both like the potential things.
(47:25):
Yeah.
Start of things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Was there a project that was the scariest for you to let go?
Yeah, for me, maybe Aira Fabrica was the scariest project for me.
(47:52):
I don't know if it's the scariest project, but it was the scariest project for me.
Aira Fabrica, it is still a project and it pops up now and then
because I really showed it in exhibitions as something that has potential.
(48:15):
So this was actually the only process that had static objects in the end.
But the promise, it was never a lamp.
I never designed a lamp or, I don't know, an object with it.
So it kept this potential, but it never really got to the point yet
(48:39):
that it got somewhere like cozy, where the potential was really applied.
Yeah, concrete also.
Concrete, yeah.
Yeah.
So that's still on our list, maybe.
So why was it scary then for you to let go?
(49:02):
Because the potential was still there.
Oh, and so we don't work on it anymore.
Yeah, maybe, yeah.
So it felt unresolved?
Unresolved.
There's still something hanging in the air that needs to be translated.
It didn't click yet into the perfect thing.
(49:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
It didn't finish.
Yeah, yeah.
Have you thought about what would make it feel resolved?
Well, actually, I don't know, because the potential is,
(49:45):
it's also nice that the potential is still, yeah, hanging in the air
and that it can be a housing solution where you can inflate big 3D printed shapes
that gets 10 times bigger than the original shape.
And it can also be something, it is a magical process,
(50:06):
quite a magical process in the end.
So how can you, yeah, it can also be a medical solution
where you start with a really tiny balloon
and it gets, and it inflates in the body for a certain purpose.
I don't know, it can be the potential,
or the ideas that you can have with this inflatables are quite big.
(50:29):
So in that sense, it's still fun for us maybe,
because we like potential.
Tom, with, and I'm probably going to need your help with the pronunciation of this.
Is it Arabidopsis Symphony?
Yes.
Yeah, it is.
(50:49):
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, yeah, I'm doing pretty well.
Yeah, you're doing great.
With that project, you were bringing together science, art, and,
public engagement, which part proved most challenging?
Was it working with the scientists,
(51:10):
developing the artistic side of the project,
or making it accessible to the public without losing its complexity?
I think the most difficult part, but took the most time,
because I didn't recognize it before, was the project itself.
The most time, because I didn't recognize it before,
(51:31):
was the collaboration with the scientists.
Because I think, and we are far more aware of that after, since, ever since,
because we speak different languages.
Of course, we speak both Dutch, but we are operating in a different realm.
(51:53):
So he speaks about genes and hormones.
And also, of course, talks about music,
but in a far less refined way that I can do that.
And vice versa, I know the language of music, how to speak that,
(52:13):
but I don't speak the language of genes and hormones
in such a refined way as he can do that.
So, for example, we had a lot of fights,
not literally fights, but words over...
Discussions.
Discussions of how the experience should sound like.
(52:35):
And we were trying to give words to what was in our heads.
And of course, I used different words to explain the music in my head than he did.
And it took us months, actually,
until we came to the conclusion that we would maybe listen to some YouTube videos
(52:56):
together.
And we found out quite fast that we were aiming for the same thing.
But we just described it differently because we use different language.
So spending time together, especially when you work interdisciplinary like we do,
to create some kind of a common understanding, common language,
(53:18):
that is really important.
And then after that, I wouldn't say everything comes very naturally,
but it's far more easy because creating an artistic piece,
creating something that is clear and understandable and intuitive,
that's our job.
And of course, it's always a process.
(53:39):
And sometimes the end result is better than other times.
But we know how to do that.
And we know how to dial which knob to get what we want.
But getting this common understanding about what we are aiming for,
(54:04):
I think that's the hardest part.
And also, more in general, in this kind of interdisciplinary projects,
people don't spend a lot of time getting to know each other.
But I think that is the important part of making a successful collaboration project.
(54:28):
So what does a strong leadership look like in the studio
where you have all of these different types of people,
types of ways that they're working?
Yeah, also there, I think applying the perfect context
(54:49):
to be able to be creative.
I think it is a common misunderstanding
that you give an artist a blank canvas and then it will be perfect.
I think setting up restrictions in terms of time, budget,
goals, directions, really provides a lot of clarity and comfort
(55:17):
for creatives to be creative in this given context.
And so for us, I think leadership in our company is also about,
and we're getting better about that every day, I think,
about giving this clarity.
Okay, this is for the next quarter what we're trying to do.
(55:37):
This is the amount of time you have for that.
This is the budget that we are given to do that.
This is what we want to achieve.
We don't know what it will look like.
We don't know what will end up, how it will end up.
But we know we are searching for this and this and this.
Let's do it.
(55:58):
And speaking the same languages also plays a really big role in our studio,
I would say.
So giving a context where people could really get to know each other
in each other's processes is a really big thing
that we are trying to achieve.
(56:19):
So everyone brings their own expertise, brings their own knowledge.
So we have graphic designers, we have a sound designer,
creative technologist, industrial designers.
They're all from another background.
(56:40):
So how to get them sharing ideas from their background,
from this knowledge, from their expertise.
That also requires of everyone to share things
and to feel at home actually in the studio,
to be comfortable enough to dare to come up with ideas
(57:04):
and to come up with stupid ideas too,
and to share those with each other.
So everyone can, from their own backgrounds,
influence each other's ideas.
That's the puzzle that we're making.
Yeah, and so also I think acknowledging that these processes are hard to do.
(57:29):
Yeah, it's not easy.
Because if you define creativity as the expression of self,
then it also entails that you also have to bring yourself on the table
so that when things are tough or hard to tackle or to crunch,
then it's also about you in the process itself.
(57:50):
And that, of course, can be sometimes feel confronting or scary.
And so, yeah, showing and also sometimes literally saying
that we got your back on this, that we know that this is part of the job
and it's going to end up really cool.
(58:13):
But now it feels very uncomfortable.
And yeah, so this acknowledgment, I think it's also part of our job
that we're trying to be better at every day.
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like that is a tough balance to strike
(58:36):
between getting these people comfortable in the studio,
but then when they're in these frustrated moments,
letting them know that this is part of the process
and I understand this is part of the process.
So you two, in a lot of ways, at least in this situation,
(59:00):
are kind of like a counselor or a psychologist.
You both are like, I know where your head's at.
I know where you're coming from.
You just need to work through this and everything will turn out.
Yeah, and also be sometimes a bit strict
because, of course, when things are hard,
(59:22):
you don't know where to find it, what is the next step.
Then the most easiest thing is to say,
okay, this whole idea was stupid anyway.
So why would we have ever started it anyway?
So let's stop it.
And then maybe also the easiest thing for us would say,
yeah, of course, it was a stupid idea anyway.
(59:44):
Let's do it.
Let's quit the whole thing.
But that's not the thing.
Then it's up to us to say,
okay, we know it's hard, but we don't going to quit
because we have to get through this and then it will be fine.
We trust the process.
So, yeah, it's about walking along,
(01:00:08):
try to understand or acknowledging the fact that it's hard,
but also say, yeah, I know it's hard,
but I'm not going to ease the situation now
because we have to get through this.
So, yeah, it's also a bit about that, I think.
Yeah.
(01:00:29):
Yeah. It's a little bit of a dance.
It's a dance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Tom, your background is in theater and music.
When does a material stop being a material
and start becoming an instrument?
I think from the moment that you as a human being decide that it is.
(01:00:56):
So I think everything around your chair where you're sitting on
can be a drum kit if you decide it to be a drum kit,
that it is a drum kit,
and then you will tap on it and it becomes a drum kit.
(01:01:16):
And I think for us, as artists who want to create this context,
I think it's about creating the context
where people feel safe to explore these kinds of things
and also provide the intuitiveness so that it's also it's clear
(01:01:37):
what your exploration possibilities are.
And that's, I think, a process that you can design.
Of course, everything can be a drum kit,
but it's nice also to provide some guidance
or some implicit or sometimes explicit suggestions to people
(01:01:59):
to use maybe these drum kits in a different way.
To people to use maybe these drum kits in a specific way
because then maybe the moment of wonder will be the best.
So for us, it's about designing this invitation.
(01:02:25):
And yeah, so in a way, every material can be an instrument.
And at the same time, it's also about creating
and putting the knowledge that you know how an instrument works
into practice, into also designing and shaping the material.
(01:02:52):
For example, a box with a hollow space is a better sounding thing
than a thing that has not a hollow space to resonate.
So these are the things it's nice to know
so that you can use it in your practice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Has anyone interacted with one of your installations
(01:03:19):
in a way that was really memorable for better or for worse?
Yeah, for worse?
We can tell a few stories.
We have a lot of stories about that, of course.
Quite some.
Yeah, so what's now directly comes in my mind,
(01:03:41):
we have, Rose talked about this drawing machine
and somehow putting a paper and a pencil in a museum,
even if there's our security and cameras,
it just invites people to draw, yeah, certain things on paper.
Okay, okay.
(01:04:02):
And genital parts.
I don't know.
Yeah, it's just a limitation and people are really like to do that.
It's also art.
I don't know why, but yeah, so that.
We made a resonance.
It's baths with water that vibrate and show the vibrations of sounds on the water.
(01:04:28):
But if you're not interacting with it, it's very still and the water is very flat.
And it just looks like a bench.
So people will also feel the invitation to sit on it, to put their back in it.
So, yeah, we experienced a lot of.
(01:04:48):
Not the best design.
Yeah, no, well, yeah.
So like I said, we create a context and we invite people to explore
and sometimes they take it into an unexpected direction.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then, yeah, the back was wet and also the pens.
The installation was.
(01:05:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So this was, of course, the not nice things.
But I saw a lot of very nice interactions with Linea Franca, the blue line that was
earlier talking about.
Yeah, it's a really low barrier object and people have.
(01:05:35):
Yeah, it creates a lot of fun in a in a very short amount of time with it.
So it's really intuitive to to play with it in a way playful.
It's really, yeah, sparks a smile.
Yeah, yeah.
So people get happy from it.
So that's that's the other works we presented this in the church.
(01:05:58):
So it was actually maybe the first time we presented it in an open kind of.
Do you call that an urban environment?
An open environment?
Most of the time or earlier, the installations were in a museum context.
So that was actually really fun to see people that are not common to go to a museum, maybe,
(01:06:21):
or that are just walking in and, yeah, see this this thing in front of your nose and
start to use it.
Yeah, this reminds me of the reaction of my uncle during the opening night at exhibition
that we did in the church here of three pieces amongst Linea Franca and Resonance that we
(01:06:45):
already talked about and the other piece Echo.
And during this opening night, we also invited some artists to do performances with the installations.
Yeah, we really wanted to create this performance wonder.
And he came to me and he was so struck by all the things that he saw.
And so my family comes from more like a rural area of the Netherlands where things are a
(01:07:14):
bit more, I don't know, concrete or the artistic way.
It's not a thing that you are confronted with on a daily basis.
And he literally had no words.
He said, I don't know how to describe this to people when I'm home.
(01:07:38):
How should I describe this?
He was so full with wonder, but in such a way that it transcends words.
And I think that was for me the most perfect reaction of the things that we're trying to
create, because you don't have to read it.
I think you just have to experience it.
And he did.
(01:07:59):
And he really felt it, but at the same time also really felt, was confronted with the
lack of language to really explain it.
And for me, that was perfect.
Because then I thought, okay, explicitly, yeah, also my family and with this background,
(01:08:19):
we were able to also evoke these kinds of feelings.
Yeah, that was amazing for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What are those interactions and reactions tell you about being human?
So that there is another realm of experience that goes beyond the verbal language.
(01:08:44):
And that is tightly connected to us having a physical body.
And it's not necessarily have to say that we have to touch each other all the time.
It's not about that.
But it's about sharing a space and use all your senses to really experience that.
(01:09:08):
And really, we always say, you can read about it, and then you know, but if you experience
it, then you will understand.
And I think for me, that's what it is.
Mm hmm.
It taps into your intuition, maybe into something that, yeah, that you can cannot describe,
(01:09:33):
but that you feel in a split second.
Yeah, you have to experience something.
Yeah, for example, climate change, you can read all the IPCC reports, and then you have
can maybe have a sense of what's going on.
But if you really experience a flood, and then you know what it is about.
(01:09:54):
And, of course, we don't want that everyone on earth needs to experience flooding their
home.
But that's, I think, also a role for us as artists, makers, to create these kinds of
experiences that really taps into that understanding layer, instead of keeping it at the knowing.
(01:10:21):
Mm hmm.
Projects like Holland's Next Embryo Model and Commission by Earth place public ethics
at the center.
What changes when a work is meant not just to move people, but to reposition how they
(01:10:45):
think?
I think because these projects that we're now talking about were also commissions from
companies or non governmental organizations that wanted to do research or, or get a message
across.
(01:11:06):
And I think, of course, there's a bit of a different goal, but our process is to try
Of course, there's a bit of a different goal, but our process is at the end.
Actually, I think pretty much the same because we start about with also with Holland's Next
Embryo Model by creating a common experience.
(01:11:30):
So the goal for Holland's Next Embryo Model was for the Rathenau Institute, which is a
Dutch institute that does research for the national government, and our goal was to reach
out to society and ask society in the broadest sense possible, what we think of using human
(01:11:59):
tissue for an embryo tissue for scientific research.
And you can imagine that conservative people, for example, with a Christian background,
think quite differently on these topics than people from a more progressive standpoint.
(01:12:20):
And our goal was to create an environment where those people can come together and talk
about the subject and exchange thoughts.
And so I think this, yeah, maybe I would describe it like a funny way of showcasing this subject
(01:12:43):
and at the same time providing the participants with enough background knowledge through this
performance show to have a solid conversation about it.
I think that was our goal.
So again, it is about not only telling so that you know, but also experience it so that
(01:13:09):
you have a better understanding about it and then also can form an opinion about it.
So and that's why we also see a connection between our artistic work and our commercial
work, because the things that we learn from our artistic work, we take that into our commercial
(01:13:29):
work.
So that's for us is a real, I think, yeah, connection.
Yeah.
Have you found that there is a more beneficial or most beneficial or best way to convey an
(01:13:50):
idea so that people with potentially opposing points of view are able to sit with that idea
together?
Yeah, I would say shared experience.
If you are together in the physical environment and you experience, you look at the same thing
(01:14:16):
or you experience the same thing that creates a connection.
And that can be a very simple thing.
But the main thing that I think is happening is that you acknowledge that you're both a
human being and then you are immediately more open to other opinions or discussions because
(01:14:37):
you don't see or regard the other entity as just a flat thing with a single opinion.
But you see a person, a human being, which is a round character with all his doubts and
all his perspective and aspects.
(01:15:02):
And I think this is a thing that you have to experience.
That's maybe also why I explain maybe that on social media, these things really come
to quite quickly to a stall or to a very aggressive standpoint.
(01:15:22):
And if you have a physical interaction with people, then you can talk about things.
I think with this project, Holland's Next Embryo Model, it really happens that on this
conversation table, people were really thinking differently about this embryo research.
(01:15:47):
And we managed to make it also into a low barrier conversation and a little bit of humor
into a conversation where everyone could speak openly.
So I think that is a project where it literally happens, where people sat together and talked
(01:16:12):
with each other.
In the other installations that we create, in the more artistic installation, I would
say we don't want people to talk with each other, but the connection happens in a more
intuitive and nonverbal way, I would say.
(01:16:37):
If someone looks back at Philips Studios in 10 years, what do you hope they say you changed
in how art, design, and science are allowed to work together?
(01:16:58):
That's about the impact and what we try to achieve.
I think what is very important to us is that we regard creativity, the art practice,
as an also economically valuable asset.
(01:17:28):
And I think, sometimes, especially art is being seen as a hobby, you know, like, okay,
it's an individual expression, nice for you to do it in your own home.
But I think also this creative process is, I think, maybe the most important human aspect
(01:17:51):
of what defines being human.
And it also can be translated, for example, into a business like we show and can also
express economic value and can also, or maybe should be, at the center of our society.
(01:18:13):
And instead of a bit of a scary, strange thing on the borders, that maybe sometimes also
in regard of government or policy is where art is now being placed.
And I think, yeah, just showing how we do things as doing this artistic practice and
(01:18:44):
behaving like a company is also already, I think, self-explanatory of what we're trying
to achieve.
But also, if we can, in the next couple of 10 years, have a more explicit impact on,
yeah, on supporting the creative industry in the Netherlands, on a more center stage,
yeah, that would be, yeah, in connection with all the things we just said about human connection.
(01:19:11):
And that would be amazing, if we would have, yeah, if we will be able to achieve that.
Yeah, yeah.
I think so, too.
And the formula we believe now in is a combination of physical design, technical, technology
(01:19:33):
and narrative.
And if we keep, yeah, with all these different disciplines, create, yeah, to keep developing
our team in an interdisciplinary way.
I think we have a lot in this team to create this impact.
Well, Tom and Rose, those are all the questions I have for you.
(01:20:01):
I want to thank you for your time and for the work you're doing to create experiences
that invite people to slow down, pay attention, and connect with each other.
Slow down, pay attention, and connect with one another.
Yeah.
Thank you so much also for the conversation.
(01:20:23):
It was really nice.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
(01:20:45):
For more information about the Anchorage Museum, visit anchoragemuseum.org.
This podcast was produced by me, Cody Liska,
for the Anchorage Museum, with additional help from Julie Decker.
Chatter Mark's music is produced by Keys Open Doors.
(01:21:44):
Chatter Mark's music is produced by Keys Open Doors.
We really like to see it as an embodied immersive experience where you step into a space where
(00:19):
you are aware that you have a physical body that experiences physical sensations and that
you also are in that space together with other physical bodies and so you have to relate
to that and I think the fact that a larger and larger part of our life is disconnected
(00:40):
from that physical reality is I think a sad thing because it doesn't recognize the fact
that we are still physical beings with physical needs and physical sensations to be able to
connect with other people.
(01:01):
We are made for that so I think it's really important.
That was Tom Kordbeck and he and Rose Meerman are the founders of Philips Studios, a Netherlands-based
interdisciplinary design studio whose work sits at the intersection of art, science,
(01:21):
technology and human experience.
Together Tom and Rose have spent more than a decade exploring what happens when artists,
designers, engineers and scientists are invited into the same conversation.
Their projects explore everything from human connection to healthcare to public ethics,
(01:47):
environmental responsibility and the future role of design in society.
There's Tactile Orchestra, an interactive installation that turns touch into collaborative
music.
There's Cozy, a sensory object that's being used in dementia and Alzheimer's care.
(02:09):
Human's Next Embryo invites the public to grapple with the ethical questions surrounding
reproductive technology and genetic selection.
Commissioned by Earth explores what changes when the planet itself is treated as the client.
Arabidopsis Symphony transforms plant biology into an immersive musical experience.
(02:35):
And other projects that challenge audiences to reconsider the relationship between people,
nature, materials, technology and the systems that shape our lives.
But beneath all of those projects is a simpler question.
(02:56):
How do people come together?
Not through argument or instruction, but through touch, play, curiosity, wonder and
shared experience.
It's a question that sits at the center of much of Phillips Studio's work and is reflected
(03:16):
in its guiding philosophy, impact through wonder.
In the studio, this starts with creating an atmosphere where creators are comfortable
to explore and discover.
Here Tom and Rose's role involves helping people work through a creative process, uncovering
(03:38):
new questions and perspectives along the way.
The result is a body of work that invites people to come together and that some of our
most meaningful insights aren't always something we think our way into.
They can also be something we feel our way toward.
(04:02):
So here they are, Tom Kordbeck and Rose Meerman.
Welcome to Chatter Marks, a podcast of the Anchorage Museum, dedicated to exploring Alaska
and the circumpolar North through the creative and critical thinking of ideas, past, present
(04:23):
and future.
My name is Cody Liske and I'll be your host.
Your collaboration began around 2014 and quickly led to the ideas that became Tactile Orchestra.
(04:50):
What did each of you recognize in the other that your own practice was maybe missing at
the time?
Well, I think what I was, so I graduated from conservatory doing music theater, focusing
(05:10):
on things like sound and music.
And I was really looking into things of how could I explore the experience of music in
a nonlinear way.
So normally, of course, you listen to music and you start at zero and you go to three
(05:30):
minutes, 30 seconds, and then it ends.
So it's quite a linear experience.
And I was figuring out how can we explore it in a more spatial way or just all the other
things.
And then that I think I found in Rose with her background as a product designer, and
of course, she thinks naturally in a spatial way, in a physical way.
(05:55):
And I think, yeah, so tapping into other senses, so to say, I think, yeah, that really brought
the collaboration with Ro, yeah, on my part.
Yeah, yeah.
At that moment, I was experimenting with fabrics and conductive threads.
(06:16):
And so really from the material side, how can you approach a fabric in a different way?
And how can you use stroking to make sound or make music?
But I couldn't, yeah, the technical material side was my knowledge that I could use, but
(06:37):
meeting when I met Tom, this really got to a new stage where music and the experience
of this fabric became another perspective.
So that was a really good collaboration.
I think the best partnerships are born out of honesty.
(07:04):
So I'm wondering, were there any early disagreements that ended up defining how you two work together?
Well, I don't know.
So yeah, also, to be honest, we also have a personal relationship.
(07:28):
So also, we live together.
It's really honest.
Yeah, so this establishing of the concept of Takta Orchestra was actually on the first date.
We created that idea on the first date.
This was really cool.
(07:48):
And I think from the moment we met each other, we really respect each other's discipline.
I'm not a great product designer.
And I know a lot about music.
And I think it works for Rose vice versa, that she is, in my opinion, a very good product
(08:11):
designer.
And I know she knows a bit less about music than I do.
And I think this situation really helps in respecting each other's opinions.
But on the same time, I think also, because the situation we are talking about is, I think,
(08:33):
12, 14 years ago.
Yeah, yeah.
And of course, in the beginning collaboration, you also have to really get to know each other
and learn that it's not a fight.
Creating a concept is not a battle of who has the right to do what.
It's a battle of who has the best ideas.
(08:54):
But if learning that if the other is not maybe already really fond of your idea, then maybe
it's not a good idea yet.
And then you have to work on this together instead of trying to defend your own idea
and try to win.
So it's not a battle.
(09:15):
It's a collaboration where you together try to build, to make the idea into a great work.
And so, but that's also a process, I think, that we learned that from each other.
Yeah, and a lot of trust in each other's knowledge and background, of course, but we
(09:39):
know from each other's faces when we don't like an idea from each other.
Can you describe what those faces look like?
Funny question.
Yeah, I see.
(10:00):
I think, yeah, yeah.
Eyes in this case, I think, speak the most.
So then, yeah, when yourself are very happy with an idea you came up with and you explain
it to the other and you see the face being a bit doubtful, then you know, okay, it's
(10:21):
not good enough yet or we have to talk about it.
And then, yeah.
We both can be very enthusiastic when we have, in our own opinion, have a great idea.
But if the other is not very enthusiastic, then you, yeah, you know it.
You have to come up with a better idea.
Yeah, yeah.
There seems like there is an element of nonverbal communication as well, you know, with those
(10:47):
facial expressions.
So maybe one of you is conveying an idea that you are, you have a lot of energy behind and
then the other one is like, you know, raises an eyebrow, you know, okay, maybe I need to
think this one through more.
Yeah, definitely.
And so, yeah, that's, I think that's nice actually to be aware of that.
(11:09):
We learn that from each other.
Also, when we are in a meeting with others, just seeing how Rose looks or is expressing
in her face.
Yeah, that tells us a lot of, tells me a lot of what she's thinking and yeah, how the
(11:30):
idea is being perceived in Rose's mind.
Yeah.
And that's nice, yeah.
You know, one of the questions behind tactile orchestra seems to be, how do we create with
people we've never met?
(11:52):
Why has that question become so important to you?
Well, for me, that's about when this was all starting in the Netherlands, there was in
the government and policy field, there was this thing called participation society.
(12:13):
So everyone has to step in and do his or her part and then work together to make it possible
because a lot of services became too expensive for the government to pay on its own.
So we have to step in as a society.
And I was just wondering, how should we do that?
(12:34):
What is, how is a participation society looks like?
How does that look like?
And how does that work?
And how do we create together?
And how do we create together?
Also, for the main part, if you don't know other people, and how can it be so easy?
(12:55):
How can we make it so easy, so that it also is also fun, or is also can really can create
something beautiful?
Or can you maybe also destroy it?
Or, and so these are a bit big of the bigger thoughts behind it.
But at the end of the day, of course, it's also just a nice experience to join, to be
(13:23):
joined with other people to be experienced.
Yeah, to connect.
Yeah.
So with this, that is a bit of actually my bigger thought about behind the concept.
Yeah, I think it's also in every work that we do, it's based on the idea that you that
you can, we always invite people to explore and to find something new, because we really
(13:49):
like a process of finding something new in our own work while playing and experimenting
with techniques and technology and materials.
And it's a really a process where you explore something new, makes you feel really happy
and open for, for also finding courage in your in your own life to, to play more maybe
(14:17):
and to, and to connect more using your senses.
So that's also an important element in that how to use your senses in a different way.
Maybe we lost a bit of the connection with with our senses by using a lot of screens
all the time and talking through this through using screens.
(14:42):
Yeah, so let's get in touch with in another way.
So how to with the artworks create really low barrier experiences where you that every
everyone can can do.
Yeah, to create a sense of wonder.
Did you see a difference in how people interacted with the installation tactile orchestra based
(15:09):
on the different locations and different countries, it's been in.
Well, which was quite interesting to see is that in the US we showed it in the Cooper
Human Design Museum.
We saw a different use than in Denmark in Kolding in Trabholt museum, which was interesting
(15:30):
to see.
So, yeah, there were a lot of people in Denmark who took that time really to really explore
all this, all the sounds in the whole, in the whole installation and really spent maybe
five minutes in average with the installation.
(15:51):
While in America, in the US, it was quite more fast.
I think it was maybe approximately a few seconds that people were using tactile orchestra.
So I don't know what it means, but that was a big difference.
We saw.
(16:11):
That's very nice to see the difference in maybe I don't know culture or how they.
Sure.
Yeah, we didn't thought of that before, of course.
Yeah.
It sounds like maybe people were using the installation in ways that you didn't anticipate.
(16:33):
Definitely.
Yeah.
So that's, that's also our, always our goal.
So we always say we don't create end products.
Or we, but we create a context for people to, to explore.
And so without their, their connection and their inputs, it's nothing.
(16:58):
It's just a furry wall doing nothing, but you have to explore it.
You have to connect with it.
And that's the invitation we give to, to the users or to the visitors of the piece.
Because the aesthetic, the artistic experience, so to say, yeah, it really has to come from
(17:18):
the connection that people made with it.
And, and that's nice because then you also get unexpected reactions.
Some people move quite fast.
So some people take a lot of time to explore all the sounds together with other people.
Also, also with other works that we create.
So yeah, you cannot always predict how people will engage with it.
(17:40):
And that's also, I think the nice thing about what we're trying to create.
Yeah.
Thinking about larger questions of loneliness and mental health, do you think modern society
suffers from a lack of connection or a lack of opportunities to connect?
(18:09):
Yeah, definitely.
I think definitely that is the case.
Of course, we, we have so much options to, to, to, to really dive in the digital world
where there's so much focusing on your personal self.
So, and that, so that you really are also invited, are invited to disconnect from the
(18:34):
physical world because you have now also AI tools really asking you, hey, can I help
you?
Can I do that?
So where's the need of the, the, the, the physical order?
And, and, and then we are stepping really in the, in, with our works in the, in the
realm of immersive experiences.
And then in, in, in, in, in the narrow sense of it, you can, you, then you have, you can
(18:59):
talk about VR or augmented reality.
But we, we really like to see it as an embodied immersive experience where you step into a
space where you, where you are aware that you have a physical body that experiences
physical sensations.
And that is that, that you also are in that space together with other physical bodies.
(19:22):
And so you have to relate to that.
And I think the fact that a large, a larger and larger part of our life is disconnected
from that physical reality is, I think a sad thing because it doesn't recognize the fact
that we are still physical beings with physical needs and physical sensations to be able to
(19:51):
connect with other people.
We are made for that.
So I think it's really important.
We are working at the moment at a, on a, on a topic called home.
So it connects to this question that you asked about loneliness and how you feel at home
in a, in a city.
(20:11):
We are going to, we're going to explore how we can make or use this immersive technologies
that Tom was mentioning to enlarge the feeling of home in a city context.
So that's where we are.
Yeah.
Starting with at the moment where we work, we, yeah, we just started on that together
(20:35):
with a social design studio affect lab and, and a dance and a dance company called Introdance
and two universities.
So it's, it's quite a, a really an interesting topic and how can we, how can we use technology,
digital technology?
Yeah.
Not only for the things that we already know, but maybe yeah.
(21:00):
How to create things outside in the urban context that really make people connect more
and feel at home more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's really interesting.
I wonder what does it mean to enlarge the idea of home?
Does it mean, you know, you go to the park and something, maybe a piece of art kind of
(21:26):
brings this comfort of familiarity and along with that is home or is it different than
that?
Yeah, that would be a nice outcome of the project.
But also a part of the project is really explore what is a home because maybe it's also really,
(21:46):
and I think it is also really cultural defined and maybe home in the Netherlands means quite
something else than home in Alaska and maybe in Alaska also home means very different things
to a lot of different people.
So the last time I went to Alaska because we showed something in the Anchorage Museum,
(22:12):
I really came to learn about the indigenous cultures and I can imagine, I don't know,
that also in these kinds of cultures, the concept of home is really different or really
being experienced or being thought of in a different way than we are doing that.
(22:35):
And these kind of differences, that's the part we are interested in and we like to explore
that and how can we create something that also gives space to these different notions
of home and that people can really create that.
That's what I meant also when I was saying we try to create contexts where people can
(22:59):
explore and experience.
So these contexts also need to create some kind of a safety zone, but also an intuitiveness
that people really can feel that they can add something of their own to make it their home.
Yeah, so that's the thing that we're really interested in.
(23:24):
And what does home mean to you?
That's a good question.
I think besides the fact that you have a house that you can also call your home,
it's more a place where you feel safe and secure to just act and explore and not
(23:51):
think too much about acting, but just do.
For now, maybe that describes it for me, that you can just be and do and not think
about what you're doing.
Yeah, I don't know how you think about it.
(24:11):
Yeah, I'm also thinking about this urban context.
How do you feel at home on the streets?
It definitely has something to do with safety and comfort, knowing
where you are and knowing that you are seen, maybe.
So home is also in the relation of others.
(24:33):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's nice.
Yeah.
Having eye contact on the street with others, saying hi.
Knowing that you belong somewhere, maybe, that it feels comfortable.
Yeah, that's cool.
Yeah.
And do you both start from that point of view when you're working on this project?
(24:59):
Yeah.
Conceptually, yes.
It's a bit more complex research project because we take this home concept in our title,
in a dual way.
So on the one hand, it is about home.
(25:21):
How can we make people feel at home, for example, that are not born here in the Netherlands,
but do live here?
And on the same time, it's about home.
How can we, as artists, feel at home with these new technologies?
And how can we create with that, so that we are really also comfortable in being at home?
(25:45):
In the technologies of VR and AR and other mixed reality immersive technologies,
so that we really know this language and that we can use this language to create.
So this is also an important part of the artistic research, a part of the research program.
(26:10):
So from one hand, we started this from this conceptual side,
but also from this technology.
Yeah, interesting way we can explore the technologies for future use,
but also all the time in a way we want to use it.
So not putting on a headset and that people are floating away in a digital space,
(26:37):
but still use the immersive technology to stay grounded in the physical environment,
connected with other physical bodies.
Yeah, and that's also why the dance company is also involved in this project,
because they have maybe most of everyone in the group, of course,
(27:00):
but they really have a big knowledge on how you use your body
and how to know where you are in a certain place
and how you relate to others using your body, knowing your body.
So this is a really interesting collaboration, I feel.
(27:20):
Has working with dancers changed how you design for non-dancers?
Yeah, but we want to do that more.
So, for example, another project called Linea Franca,
which is a blue line floating in space and people can touch that and it makes sounds.
(27:43):
And if more people touch the line, then it creates other sounds.
So people are invited to explore.
We also, we created that in a way that it's not just a project.
We created that in our studio and we created that also based on the aesthetic style of the line.
(28:04):
And later on, we created workshops with dancers that made a program around the art piece
to also connect refugees in a workshop to each other
and also to people that already live in our city.
And we really wondered, and that was actually maybe also the basis for the project Home
(28:29):
that we are working on right now,
that if we could have worked with this choreographer before we made the physical piece,
then it would definitely look different.
And that is, I think, we found that the most interesting part.
So that's why we also were really eager to start a project of Home
(28:51):
because we really like to see, and we're still in this process,
how that will turn out if we make physical things
that are not only made because we think they look nice
and they're perfect because we think they are,
but that we also take into account the profession of a dancer, of a mover in space.
(29:15):
And that we can take that as an input for our designs.
That is what we really are eager to explore and to make use in our future projects.
And we're doing that right now as we speak in the projects that we are now working on.
Yeah, and it's also really good to know that we are working with a choreographer, Adrian Lutijn,
(29:43):
and he has a program within the dance company where he creates performances on stage
with all kinds of people.
So their mission is, or their vision on dancing is everyone can dance.
So this choreographer knows a lot about how to not only work with professional dancers,
(30:04):
but also invite people with disabilities or people that are really, really long
or really, really short, I don't know, all kinds of different people
and connect them to professional dancers.
So he also knows how to get people into movement and connection.
(30:26):
Yeah, and the nice thing, I think, is also that he always encounters people
or he works with all these types of different body types or whatever as being professionals.
So he really puts a diverse group of trained dancers and different body type dancers.
(30:48):
For him, they're all the same.
He works as a professional on a professional dance piece.
And I think that it's also for us really inspiring to be part of in this project.
Tactile Orchestra eventually helped inspire,
(31:12):
and you might have to help me out with this, the pronunciation, Cozy?
Yes.
Yeah.
It's also meant to be cozy.
So yeah, that's why.
Yeah.
That's great.
So Cozy is used in dementia and Alzheimer's care.
What was it like to see an idea that began in an art context, find its way into a care setting?
(31:42):
Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, it was beautiful.
Yeah, yeah.
So our mission, we're a non-profit organization.
And so our mission is to create impact through wonder.
And yeah, this is, I think, the example of how we imagined it to be.
So we create wonder via Tactile Orchestra.
(32:05):
It's an artistic piece, but we also explore new technologies and made them public.
And so a person that experienced a version of Tactile Orchestra in Netherlands,
who was working at a healthcare institution, came to us and say,
okay, what you are doing, that's what we call multi-century healthcare.
(32:26):
Let's collaborate.
Let's explore how we can use your technology in the context of my work field,
which is taking care of elderly with dementia.
And of course, from this focus on trying to create impact through wonder,
yeah, we were really eager to explore that and to collaborate
(32:47):
and to see how we could turn this art piece into a product.
Yeah, that can mean something for someone's daily life.
Yeah, and of course, art can also mean a lot to a lot of people.
But to really make this explicit, applicable impact.
(33:11):
Yeah, that was amazing.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you know what it looks like in practice for the dementia and Alzheimer's care?
Yeah, so we created two versions of the product.
It's called the Cozy Me and the Cozy We.
(33:33):
And yeah, so the Cozy We is more like a one-on-one translation of the art piece
into some kind of a wall element that people could explore and explore sounds.
Because when you are in the Dutch context,
when you are in a healthcare institution having dementia,
(33:53):
you are in a far-developed stage of having Alzheimer's or dementia.
And so you don't get out often.
And so we try to put sounds in these walls from villages,
from outdoor experiences,
so that people also could reimagine this experience of getting outside.
(34:18):
And the other thing is called the Cozy Me.
It's a small cushion, a pillow.
And if you would cuddle with that,
then you would hear spoken messages from friends and family
or sounds that you or music that you know from the past.
So that you also literally could feel at home
(34:41):
in a place that is not really your home.
That was the goal, yeah.
Yeah, people could fill it themselves with sounds that sound familiar,
so spoken words, but also pieces of sounds, sounds of the sea.
It can be everything that reminds you back to something
(35:03):
and get into conversation or feel comfortable.
Rose, I came across a number of descriptions of your work
and they stress the process over the product.
At what point does a process become strong enough to be the work
(35:29):
rather than just the method behind it?
Good question.
Yeah, I think our outcomes or the things that we make
are always processes itself.
So we'd never design a static object or something that is finished.
So our works are always, we always design a framework
(35:54):
or a experience that can, an object or a process.
An object or an installation that is open for interaction.
So yeah, we once created a drawing machine
that creates every day a new drawing based on sounds of languages
(36:23):
that are on the verge of extinction.
So it's a machine.
We designed the process and we created the story with it.
But we didn't design the art pieces or the drawings ourselves,
but the machine made it in a way.
So we created the context and we found an interesting connection of an influence
(36:53):
and then it took place.
So it was a whole process that we designed
and it's actually the same with tactile orchestra, I would say.
So we designed a wall where people could interact with
and create sounds with each other.
But we didn't create, yeah, it's always different.
So we didn't create the one and only art piece
(37:14):
that we want people to explore,
but it's always in the context of other influences.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think maybe also the work that we create and show to people
is also, now I'm thinking how I think about it,
is to sort of try to reenact the initial wonder or awe
(37:38):
that we ourselves experienced.
Yeah.
So for example, in Aera Fabrica,
that's one of the first projects that Roos worked on.
It was a graduation piece and that turned out to be also a technology
where you can redesign 3D printed shapes.
(38:01):
But it started with Roos having a wondrous feeling
when she watched a YouTube video about the process
with someone putting a marshmallow in a vacuum chamber.
Yeah.
And I think Roos is especially good at this
(38:22):
and you recognize something where you think,
okay, here is something and we have to explore this
and then you go after it and you deep it out into something.
And then you learn along the way and you have new insights
and you create new technologies and new processes.
And then at the end, I think we try to turn that into something
(38:48):
that is an abstraction of all the things that we have learned,
but put again into one experience that comes as close as possible
to the first moment of awe or wonder that we felt when we started this process.
And also to close the circle and maybe also,
(39:10):
and that was the thing that happened with Tactile Orchestra
coming into contact with this person in healthcare situation,
so we started a process where we were wondered about something,
about in this case, for example, the participation society.
We deep that out, we turned that into something,
we took opinions on that.
(39:33):
And then we turned all of this knowledge into a very straightforward
or one abstract experience,
which is then again, a starting point for someone else
to also be wondered and to start thinking of how can I make that into something
and how can I use that in my daily practice?
(39:58):
Yeah, so this circling of us being wondered about something,
use our artistic practice and process to turn that into a vision of our own
and then turning that into an abstract experience,
so that also other people not only have to read a lot of things about what we have learned,
(40:19):
but just have this pure experience, wonder experience
that also can start something new.
Yeah, that's maybe the goal of what we're trying to do.
(41:40):
So
(42:04):
Rose, you might have to help me out with the pronunciation of this.
Let's see if I can get this one correct.
Era fabrica.
Yeah, it's good.
It's good, okay.
So when that first clicked, what surprised you more?
(42:26):
Was it the material behavior itself, the process,
or the realization that the technique could outgrow the object?
I think the moment when I found out that you could inflate these 3D printed shapes,
(42:49):
I know when it happened and that was a really fun moment,
seeing this material doing that.
And I really felt that I found something that could lead to something.
(43:09):
How often does that happen with either of you,
where you're working with a material and it surprises you?
You know, you think, wow, I didn't know this could do that.
I think this was really the only moment that I...
It doesn't happen a lot, actually.
(43:33):
There are a few moments that you feel, this is it.
Then the story with the material or the technology,
it connects all together with the things that we want to do.
But this was really a feeling of discovering something.
I don't know, I don't have that often, this feeling, this specific feeling.
(44:00):
Did you have it?
Do you recognize it?
Yeah, well, so for me, it's more about the feeling of when it clicks.
So when all the parts connect into something and that feels as a whole.
So the concept, the materialization, the experience,
that everything comes together and that you feel, okay, this is it.
(44:24):
This is how it should be.
I think that is, for me, always the feeling that I'm looking for.
And of course, you don't always reach that,
because when we reflect on things or evaluate things, then you can say,
okay, yeah, on these points, we missed it maybe a bit, but the result is cool.
(44:49):
But yeah, when you have these certain projects where everything connects
and then you think, okay, yeah, this is it, of course.
And yeah, that's a euphorious moment.
And also, at the same time, also maybe a sad moment, because then it's there.
(45:10):
So then it's done.
And I also have a lot of time, this feeling that, okay, when I experience that,
I'm done with it.
And then I can move on to the next.
And then you have to rebuild the whole thing again in a new project.
So that's also a fluid moment, or how do you say that?
Yeah.
(45:33):
So does this apply to both of you, that after you're done with a project,
there is this feeling of sadness or melancholy,
that the project that you have spent all this time working on is now finished
and it's out in the world?
Yeah, I think it's a really, it's also a really scary moment.
(45:59):
I really feel the beginning of a project where you have an idea of what it can be
and what it should be, that the thing that you create,
although it connects in a good way, you think this is it.
It's always really difficult to reach the goals that you have from the beginning,
(46:22):
from the start.
So in the beginning, the project has the most potential still.
That's, of course, also nice.
It's really nice.
You see, you feel the potential that's in it
and that you have the opportunity to get it out.
And when it's done and it's out in the open, then, yeah,
(46:42):
it's a bit stupid to say, but it has no potential anymore
because it's there already.
And then, yeah, we have to search for new potential.
So, yeah, so there may be, yeah, you can describe that maybe as melancholy,
that you think, okay, this was a nice process,
but it was a nice process and we have to start again, a new process.
(47:04):
Yeah, then the process for others begin, too.
Yeah.
It has something to do with exploring something new
and something that you haven't thought about before
or something that you cannot draw on paper.
I don't know what it is.
But maybe that's also nice that we both like the potential things.
(47:25):
Yeah.
Start of things.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Was there a project that was the scariest for you to let go?
Yeah, for me, maybe Aira Fabrica was the scariest project for me.
(47:52):
I don't know if it's the scariest project, but it was the scariest project for me.
Aira Fabrica, it is still a project and it pops up now and then
because I really showed it in exhibitions as something that has potential.
(48:15):
So this was actually the only process that had static objects in the end.
But the promise, it was never a lamp.
I never designed a lamp or, I don't know, an object with it.
So it kept this potential, but it never really got to the point yet
(48:39):
that it got somewhere like cozy, where the potential was really applied.
Yeah, concrete also.
Concrete, yeah.
Yeah.
So that's still on our list, maybe.
So why was it scary then for you to let go?
(49:02):
Because the potential was still there.
Oh, and so we don't work on it anymore.
Yeah, maybe, yeah.
So it felt unresolved?
Unresolved.
There's still something hanging in the air that needs to be translated.
It didn't click yet into the perfect thing.
(49:22):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
It didn't finish.
Yeah, yeah.
Have you thought about what would make it feel resolved?
Well, actually, I don't know, because the potential is,
(49:45):
it's also nice that the potential is still, yeah, hanging in the air
and that it can be a housing solution where you can inflate big 3D printed shapes
that gets 10 times bigger than the original shape.
And it can also be something, it is a magical process,
(50:06):
quite a magical process in the end.
So how can you, yeah, it can also be a medical solution
where you start with a really tiny balloon
and it gets, and it inflates in the body for a certain purpose.
I don't know, it can be the potential,
or the ideas that you can have with this inflatables are quite big.
(50:29):
So in that sense, it's still fun for us maybe,
because we like potential.
Tom, with, and I'm probably going to need your help with the pronunciation of this.
Is it Arabidopsis Symphony?
Yes.
Yeah, it is.
(50:49):
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, yeah, I'm doing pretty well.
Yeah, you're doing great.
With that project, you were bringing together science, art, and,
public engagement, which part proved most challenging?
Was it working with the scientists,
(51:10):
developing the artistic side of the project,
or making it accessible to the public without losing its complexity?
I think the most difficult part, but took the most time,
because I didn't recognize it before, was the project itself.
The most time, because I didn't recognize it before,
(51:31):
was the collaboration with the scientists.
Because I think, and we are far more aware of that after, since, ever since,
because we speak different languages.
Of course, we speak both Dutch, but we are operating in a different realm.
(51:53):
So he speaks about genes and hormones.
And also, of course, talks about music,
but in a far less refined way that I can do that.
And vice versa, I know the language of music, how to speak that,
(52:13):
but I don't speak the language of genes and hormones
in such a refined way as he can do that.
So, for example, we had a lot of fights,
not literally fights, but words over...
Discussions.
Discussions of how the experience should sound like.
(52:35):
And we were trying to give words to what was in our heads.
And of course, I used different words to explain the music in my head than he did.
And it took us months, actually,
until we came to the conclusion that we would maybe listen to some YouTube videos
(52:56):
together.
And we found out quite fast that we were aiming for the same thing.
But we just described it differently because we use different language.
So spending time together, especially when you work interdisciplinary like we do,
to create some kind of a common understanding, common language,
(53:18):
that is really important.
And then after that, I wouldn't say everything comes very naturally,
but it's far more easy because creating an artistic piece,
creating something that is clear and understandable and intuitive,
that's our job.
And of course, it's always a process.
(53:39):
And sometimes the end result is better than other times.
But we know how to do that.
And we know how to dial which knob to get what we want.
But getting this common understanding about what we are aiming for,
(54:04):
I think that's the hardest part.
And also, more in general, in this kind of interdisciplinary projects,
people don't spend a lot of time getting to know each other.
But I think that is the important part of making a successful collaboration project.
(54:28):
So what does a strong leadership look like in the studio
where you have all of these different types of people,
types of ways that they're working?
Yeah, also there, I think applying the perfect context
(54:49):
to be able to be creative.
I think it is a common misunderstanding
that you give an artist a blank canvas and then it will be perfect.
I think setting up restrictions in terms of time, budget,
goals, directions, really provides a lot of clarity and comfort
(55:17):
for creatives to be creative in this given context.
And so for us, I think leadership in our company is also about,
and we're getting better about that every day, I think,
about giving this clarity.
Okay, this is for the next quarter what we're trying to do.
(55:37):
This is the amount of time you have for that.
This is the budget that we are given to do that.
This is what we want to achieve.
We don't know what it will look like.
We don't know what will end up, how it will end up.
But we know we are searching for this and this and this.
Let's do it.
(55:58):
And speaking the same languages also plays a really big role in our studio,
I would say.
So giving a context where people could really get to know each other
in each other's processes is a really big thing
that we are trying to achieve.
(56:19):
So everyone brings their own expertise, brings their own knowledge.
So we have graphic designers, we have a sound designer,
creative technologist, industrial designers.
They're all from another background.
(56:40):
So how to get them sharing ideas from their background,
from this knowledge, from their expertise.
That also requires of everyone to share things
and to feel at home actually in the studio,
to be comfortable enough to dare to come up with ideas
(57:04):
and to come up with stupid ideas too,
and to share those with each other.
So everyone can, from their own backgrounds,
influence each other's ideas.
That's the puzzle that we're making.
Yeah, and so also I think acknowledging that these processes are hard to do.
(57:29):
Yeah, it's not easy.
Because if you define creativity as the expression of self,
then it also entails that you also have to bring yourself on the table
so that when things are tough or hard to tackle or to crunch,
then it's also about you in the process itself.
(57:50):
And that, of course, can be sometimes feel confronting or scary.
And so, yeah, showing and also sometimes literally saying
that we got your back on this, that we know that this is part of the job
and it's going to end up really cool.
(58:13):
But now it feels very uncomfortable.
And yeah, so this acknowledgment, I think it's also part of our job
that we're trying to be better at every day.
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like that is a tough balance to strike
(58:36):
between getting these people comfortable in the studio,
but then when they're in these frustrated moments,
letting them know that this is part of the process
and I understand this is part of the process.
So you two, in a lot of ways, at least in this situation,
(59:00):
are kind of like a counselor or a psychologist.
You both are like, I know where your head's at.
I know where you're coming from.
You just need to work through this and everything will turn out.
Yeah, and also be sometimes a bit strict
because, of course, when things are hard,
(59:22):
you don't know where to find it, what is the next step.
Then the most easiest thing is to say,
okay, this whole idea was stupid anyway.
So why would we have ever started it anyway?
So let's stop it.
And then maybe also the easiest thing for us would say,
yeah, of course, it was a stupid idea anyway.
(59:44):
Let's do it.
Let's quit the whole thing.
But that's not the thing.
Then it's up to us to say,
okay, we know it's hard, but we don't going to quit
because we have to get through this and then it will be fine.
We trust the process.
So, yeah, it's about walking along,
(01:00:08):
try to understand or acknowledging the fact that it's hard,
but also say, yeah, I know it's hard,
but I'm not going to ease the situation now
because we have to get through this.
So, yeah, it's also a bit about that, I think.
Yeah.
(01:00:29):
Yeah. It's a little bit of a dance.
It's a dance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Tom, your background is in theater and music.
When does a material stop being a material
and start becoming an instrument?
I think from the moment that you as a human being decide that it is.
(01:00:56):
So I think everything around your chair where you're sitting on
can be a drum kit if you decide it to be a drum kit,
that it is a drum kit,
and then you will tap on it and it becomes a drum kit.
(01:01:16):
And I think for us, as artists who want to create this context,
I think it's about creating the context
where people feel safe to explore these kinds of things
and also provide the intuitiveness so that it's also it's clear
(01:01:37):
what your exploration possibilities are.
And that's, I think, a process that you can design.
Of course, everything can be a drum kit,
but it's nice also to provide some guidance
or some implicit or sometimes explicit suggestions to people
(01:01:59):
to use maybe these drum kits in a different way.
To people to use maybe these drum kits in a specific way
because then maybe the moment of wonder will be the best.
So for us, it's about designing this invitation.
(01:02:25):
And yeah, so in a way, every material can be an instrument.
And at the same time, it's also about creating
and putting the knowledge that you know how an instrument works
into practice, into also designing and shaping the material.
(01:02:52):
For example, a box with a hollow space is a better sounding thing
than a thing that has not a hollow space to resonate.
So these are the things it's nice to know
so that you can use it in your practice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Has anyone interacted with one of your installations
(01:03:19):
in a way that was really memorable for better or for worse?
Yeah, for worse?
We can tell a few stories.
We have a lot of stories about that, of course.
Quite some.
Yeah, so what's now directly comes in my mind,
(01:03:41):
we have, Rose talked about this drawing machine
and somehow putting a paper and a pencil in a museum,
even if there's our security and cameras,
it just invites people to draw, yeah, certain things on paper.
Okay, okay.
(01:04:02):
And genital parts.
I don't know.
Yeah, it's just a limitation and people are really like to do that.
It's also art.
I don't know why, but yeah, so that.
We made a resonance.
It's baths with water that vibrate and show the vibrations of sounds on the water.
(01:04:28):
But if you're not interacting with it, it's very still and the water is very flat.
And it just looks like a bench.
So people will also feel the invitation to sit on it, to put their back in it.
So, yeah, we experienced a lot of.
(01:04:48):
Not the best design.
Yeah, no, well, yeah.
So like I said, we create a context and we invite people to explore
and sometimes they take it into an unexpected direction.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then, yeah, the back was wet and also the pens.
The installation was.
(01:05:09):
Yeah, yeah.
So this was, of course, the not nice things.
But I saw a lot of very nice interactions with Linea Franca, the blue line that was
earlier talking about.
Yeah, it's a really low barrier object and people have.
(01:05:35):
Yeah, it creates a lot of fun in a in a very short amount of time with it.
So it's really intuitive to to play with it in a way playful.
It's really, yeah, sparks a smile.
Yeah, yeah.
So people get happy from it.
So that's that's the other works we presented this in the church.
(01:05:58):
So it was actually maybe the first time we presented it in an open kind of.
Do you call that an urban environment?
An open environment?
Most of the time or earlier, the installations were in a museum context.
So that was actually really fun to see people that are not common to go to a museum, maybe,
(01:06:21):
or that are just walking in and, yeah, see this this thing in front of your nose and
start to use it.
Yeah, this reminds me of the reaction of my uncle during the opening night at exhibition
that we did in the church here of three pieces amongst Linea Franca and Resonance that we
(01:06:45):
already talked about and the other piece Echo.
And during this opening night, we also invited some artists to do performances with the installations.
Yeah, we really wanted to create this performance wonder.
And he came to me and he was so struck by all the things that he saw.
And so my family comes from more like a rural area of the Netherlands where things are a
(01:07:14):
bit more, I don't know, concrete or the artistic way.
It's not a thing that you are confronted with on a daily basis.
And he literally had no words.
He said, I don't know how to describe this to people when I'm home.
(01:07:38):
How should I describe this?
He was so full with wonder, but in such a way that it transcends words.
And I think that was for me the most perfect reaction of the things that we're trying to
create, because you don't have to read it.
I think you just have to experience it.
And he did.
(01:07:59):
And he really felt it, but at the same time also really felt, was confronted with the
lack of language to really explain it.
And for me, that was perfect.
Because then I thought, okay, explicitly, yeah, also my family and with this background,
(01:08:19):
we were able to also evoke these kinds of feelings.
Yeah, that was amazing for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What are those interactions and reactions tell you about being human?
So that there is another realm of experience that goes beyond the verbal language.
(01:08:44):
And that is tightly connected to us having a physical body.
And it's not necessarily have to say that we have to touch each other all the time.
It's not about that.
But it's about sharing a space and use all your senses to really experience that.
(01:09:08):
And really, we always say, you can read about it, and then you know, but if you experience
it, then you will understand.
And I think for me, that's what it is.
Mm hmm.
It taps into your intuition, maybe into something that, yeah, that you can cannot describe,
(01:09:33):
but that you feel in a split second.
Yeah, you have to experience something.
Yeah, for example, climate change, you can read all the IPCC reports, and then you have
can maybe have a sense of what's going on.
But if you really experience a flood, and then you know what it is about.
(01:09:54):
And, of course, we don't want that everyone on earth needs to experience flooding their
home.
But that's, I think, also a role for us as artists, makers, to create these kinds of
experiences that really taps into that understanding layer, instead of keeping it at the knowing.
(01:10:21):
Mm hmm.
Projects like Holland's Next Embryo Model and Commission by Earth place public ethics
at the center.
What changes when a work is meant not just to move people, but to reposition how they
(01:10:45):
think?
I think because these projects that we're now talking about were also commissions from
companies or non governmental organizations that wanted to do research or, or get a message
across.
(01:11:06):
And I think, of course, there's a bit of a different goal, but our process is to try
Of course, there's a bit of a different goal, but our process is at the end.
Actually, I think pretty much the same because we start about with also with Holland's Next
Embryo Model by creating a common experience.
(01:11:30):
So the goal for Holland's Next Embryo Model was for the Rathenau Institute, which is a
Dutch institute that does research for the national government, and our goal was to reach
out to society and ask society in the broadest sense possible, what we think of using human
(01:11:59):
tissue for an embryo tissue for scientific research.
And you can imagine that conservative people, for example, with a Christian background,
think quite differently on these topics than people from a more progressive standpoint.
(01:12:20):
And our goal was to create an environment where those people can come together and talk
about the subject and exchange thoughts.
And so I think this, yeah, maybe I would describe it like a funny way of showcasing this subject
(01:12:43):
and at the same time providing the participants with enough background knowledge through this
performance show to have a solid conversation about it.
I think that was our goal.
So again, it is about not only telling so that you know, but also experience it so that
(01:13:09):
you have a better understanding about it and then also can form an opinion about it.
So and that's why we also see a connection between our artistic work and our commercial
work, because the things that we learn from our artistic work, we take that into our commercial
(01:13:29):
work.
So that's for us is a real, I think, yeah, connection.
Yeah.
Have you found that there is a more beneficial or most beneficial or best way to convey an
(01:13:50):
idea so that people with potentially opposing points of view are able to sit with that idea
together?
Yeah, I would say shared experience.
If you are together in the physical environment and you experience, you look at the same thing
(01:14:16):
or you experience the same thing that creates a connection.
And that can be a very simple thing.
But the main thing that I think is happening is that you acknowledge that you're both a
human being and then you are immediately more open to other opinions or discussions because
(01:14:37):
you don't see or regard the other entity as just a flat thing with a single opinion.
But you see a person, a human being, which is a round character with all his doubts and
all his perspective and aspects.
(01:15:02):
And I think this is a thing that you have to experience.
That's maybe also why I explain maybe that on social media, these things really come
to quite quickly to a stall or to a very aggressive standpoint.
(01:15:22):
And if you have a physical interaction with people, then you can talk about things.
I think with this project, Holland's Next Embryo Model, it really happens that on this
conversation table, people were really thinking differently about this embryo research.
(01:15:47):
And we managed to make it also into a low barrier conversation and a little bit of humor
into a conversation where everyone could speak openly.
So I think that is a project where it literally happens, where people sat together and talked
(01:16:12):
with each other.
In the other installations that we create, in the more artistic installation, I would
say we don't want people to talk with each other, but the connection happens in a more
intuitive and nonverbal way, I would say.
(01:16:37):
If someone looks back at Philips Studios in 10 years, what do you hope they say you changed
in how art, design, and science are allowed to work together?
(01:16:58):
That's about the impact and what we try to achieve.
I think what is very important to us is that we regard creativity, the art practice,
as an also economically valuable asset.
(01:17:28):
And I think, sometimes, especially art is being seen as a hobby, you know, like, okay,
it's an individual expression, nice for you to do it in your own home.
But I think also this creative process is, I think, maybe the most important human aspect
(01:17:51):
of what defines being human.
And it also can be translated, for example, into a business like we show and can also
express economic value and can also, or maybe should be, at the center of our society.
(01:18:13):
And instead of a bit of a scary, strange thing on the borders, that maybe sometimes also
in regard of government or policy is where art is now being placed.
And I think, yeah, just showing how we do things as doing this artistic practice and
(01:18:44):
behaving like a company is also already, I think, self-explanatory of what we're trying
to achieve.
But also, if we can, in the next couple of 10 years, have a more explicit impact on,
yeah, on supporting the creative industry in the Netherlands, on a more center stage,
yeah, that would be, yeah, in connection with all the things we just said about human connection.
(01:19:11):
And that would be amazing, if we would have, yeah, if we will be able to achieve that.
Yeah, yeah.
I think so, too.
And the formula we believe now in is a combination of physical design, technical, technology
(01:19:33):
and narrative.
And if we keep, yeah, with all these different disciplines, create, yeah, to keep developing
our team in an interdisciplinary way.
I think we have a lot in this team to create this impact.
Well, Tom and Rose, those are all the questions I have for you.
(01:20:01):
I want to thank you for your time and for the work you're doing to create experiences
that invite people to slow down, pay attention, and connect with each other.
Slow down, pay attention, and connect with one another.
Yeah.
Thank you so much also for the conversation.
(01:20:23):
It was really nice.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
(01:20:45):
For more information about the Anchorage Museum, visit anchoragemuseum.org.
This podcast was produced by me, Cody Liska,
for the Anchorage Museum, with additional help from Julie Decker.
Chatter Mark's music is produced by Keys Open Doors.
(01:21:44):
Chatter Mark's music is produced by Keys Open Doors.
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