EP 174 The Sharp End with Ashley Saupe

In this one, I talk to Ashley Saupe. She’s the host of the Sharp End Podcast, a show built around firsthand accounts of accidents, near misses, survival, and the complicated psychology of risk in the outdoors. But before she started the podcast, she was studying the mistakes of others, reading Accidents in North American Climbing, an annual publication by the American Alpine Club that documents climbing incidents, what went wrong, and the lessons people take away from them. She became fascinated not by triumphs or summit photos, but by the thin line between routine and disaster—the small decisions, overlooked details, and human tendencies that can shift a situation toward danger. Eventually, she began to think: someone should turn these stories into a podcast. That idea became The Sharp End.

For more than eleven years, she’s been listening to people recount moments when things fell apart, and in the process her own relationship to climbing, risk, and the outdoors has changed. In her twenties and early thirties, she was more concerned with reaching the summit, but now, as she nears 40, she’s learned to enjoy the journey. These days, success means facilitating wilderness experiences for other people and getting down safely. She’s less interested in collecting accomplishments than she is in what the outdoors reveal about fear, ego, vulnerability, and identity. Now, she often spends time alone in the backcountry, where the silence and isolation force her to confront these things directly. She says time slows down in the mountains, that survival depends on paying attention: listening to your body, the weather, your partner, the rock in front of you. That way of moving through the outdoors has also shaped the way she thinks about Alaska, how it’s scale and mythology often distorts people’s judgment and can lead to a dangerous kind of confidence. Many people refer to this as “The Alaska Factor.”

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the show.

(00:14):
In this one, I talked to Ashley Soppy.
She's the host of the sharp end podcast, a show built around firsthand
accounts of accidents, near misses survival, and the complicated
psychology of risk in the outdoors.
But before she started the podcast, she was studying the mistakes of others,

(00:39):
reading accidents in North American climbing, an annual publication by
the American Alpine club that documents climbing incidents, what went wrong.
And the lessons people take away from them.
She became fascinated, not by triumphs or summit photos, but by the thin line

(01:00):
between routine and disaster, the small decisions, overlooked details and
human tendencies that can shift a situation toward danger.
Eventually she began to think someone should turn these stories into a podcast.
That idea became the sharp end.

(01:23):
This podcast is made possible through the generous support of the crude
magazine, Patreon subscribers.
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For those listeners who aren't, please consider subscribing at
patreon.com slash crude magazine.

(01:44):
I want to thank everyone subscribed at the company man tier.
These are the people who have subscribed to the crude
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(02:07):
Thank you to all the Patreon subscribers, your money and your support
make these conversations possible.
You can also support this podcast with a one-time payment at
buymeacoffee.com slash crude magazine.
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(02:30):
podcasts, please do also crude apparel and merchandise is available at TeePublic.
Just go to the crude Instagram and click the link in the bio back to Ashley Soppy.
For more than 11 years, she's been listening to people talk about

(02:51):
their experiences and how they've changed their lives.
She's been listening to people talk about how they've changed their lives.
For 11 years, she's been listening to people recount moments when things fell apart.
And in the process, her own relationship to climbing, risk, and the outdoors has changed.

(03:12):
In her twenties and early thirties, she was more concerned with reaching the summit.
But now as she nears 40, she's learned to enjoy the journey.
These days, success means facilitating wilderness experiences for other people
and getting down safely.

(03:34):
She's less interested in collecting accomplishments than she is with what the
outdoors reveal about fear, ego, vulnerability, and identity.
She spends time alone in the back country now, where the silence and isolation force
her to confront these things directly.

(03:55):
She says time slows down in the mountains.
That survival depends on paying attention, listening to your body, the weather, your
partner, the rock in front of you.
That way of moving through the outdoors has also shaped the way she thinks about Alaska.

(04:17):
How its scale and mythology often distorts people's judgment and can lead to a dangerous
kind of confidence.
Many refer to this as the Alaska factor.
So here she is, Ashley Soppy.

(04:41):
This red light right here, it means we're recording.
Okay, fire it up.
Crude conversations.
Listen more than you talk.
Go to work.
Before you started the Sharp End podcast, how did you personally think about risk in

(05:03):
climbing?
Before I started the Sharp End podcast.
So that was over 11 years ago.
And so how I thought about risk in climbing, I was a big climber all through my 20s and

(05:26):
early 30s.
And really learned climbing through an old partner of mine from Alta, Wyoming.
And he took safety very seriously.
And so I learned that that was a very important part of the climbing ethos very early on.

(05:47):
And then, you know, I moved right into working for the Outward Bound School at the same
time. And so, you know, then I learned all about safety behind an institutional lens.
So safety has always been like really highest priority for sure.
Mm hmm. You said working for the Outward Bound School kind of taught you safety in an

(06:14):
institutional setting.
How was that different than learning it in a practical setting?
Or a personal setting, it's just different in the way that, you know, you're triple checking
everything because of liability, right?
But, you know, you're often caring for 12 other kiddos or human beings than just

(06:40):
yourself. So you have a lot more to look after.
But I say that, I mean, kind of looking at it like, huh, well, I myself am just as
important as 12 other bodies.
So why should it be any different?
And it really isn't any different.
I mean, it shouldn't be different.
But that's when I grew up in this industry, there was certainly a difference.

(07:03):
I mean, you know, I might not wear a helmet on a whatever, but I would definitely wear
a helmet in front of students.
That's not the case for me anymore, though.
Now I always wear a helmet.
But back in the day, I might not use trekking poles to go up or down a mountaineering
route or hiking route or steep hiking route on a personal trip.

(07:27):
But I would definitely use them with students.
But again, that's definitely not the case for me anymore.
Like now I'm really taking care of my knees because I've had knee surgery three
times. So things are different from when I was younger to how I look at things now.
Has there been a climb or a moment that fundamentally changed how you see risk or

(07:54):
responsibility?
Not really, no.
I just think, you know, being being responsible for people's safety in the
mountains makes me really, really pay attention to the details.
But there hasn't been one specific thing that has changed me.

(08:17):
So you've always been safe in the mountains?
I don't know.
I mean, I probably not, Cody.
I mean, there's been a handful of times where I've had my own accident.
You know, I've said in an interview one time I was camping up on the third bench of
the Valdez Glacier on a big snow machine trip, big ski trip.

(08:40):
And, you know, we got weathered in from a freak storm and we did our due diligence.
We were in an Arctic oven.
So there are breathable walls in the tent.
And, you know, we were making sure that we were well ventilated, we were cooking in
there, but we all three got carbon monoxide poisoning.
So, but it's like, you know, and we were doing everything that we could, right.

(09:04):
But accidents just happen, you know, I mean, but I do like to think that I try my
best. So that carbon monoxide poisoning, how did you get out of that situation?
Do you just leave the the hut that you guys created or I mean, because all of the
stories about carbon monoxide poisoning that I've heard of are, I mean, pretty deadly

(09:29):
and tragic.
Yeah. So the third person in our party got up and went outside and all of a sudden
said, hey, guys, you should come out here.
The air is really good out here.
And you're like, oh, no, we're OK.
We're pretty tired. We're just going to go take a nap.

(09:50):
And he's like, no, no, come out here.
And so we did.
And then we realized, oh, my gosh, you know, like, you know, we were all kind of
dizzy and we so that was definitely spooked us.
If it wasn't for the person, that third person in our party, it would not have
ended so well.
Yeah, that's scary because getting dizzy is, you know, that's that's one of the

(10:13):
symptoms, getting dizzy and tired, I should say.
Yep. Yep.
Yeah. So when you're climbing, how do you make decisions in real time?
You know, what are you listening for internally?
Oh, such a good question, Cody.

(10:36):
How do I make decisions in real time?
I mean, time definitely slows down when you're in the mountains and you have, you
know, you have to listen to your body, you have to listen to the weather, you have to
listen to your partner, you have to listen to the rock or the route in front of you.

(10:57):
So there's a lot of things that you're paying attention to and you just have to be
able to adjust and be flexible if things need to change.
Mm hmm.
Do you have any examples of that?
You know, when you're out there and you have a plan and you realize that, you know,

(11:22):
weather is coming in and you need to adjust that plan and you've been doing this for so
long now that I feel like you have a big pool to draw from.
You know, you have a lot of tools.
Yeah, sure.
I mean, there's been so many times that I've turned around and and I'm not I'm not a

(11:43):
summit fever person.
So if you want to be the mountains with me and you have to get to the summit, I'm not
the person that you should go with.
Let's just plan for that, because I really like the journey.
And yeah, sure.
I love don't get me wrong.
I love staying at the top of a peak and looking around three hundred and sixty five

(12:06):
degrees around you.
Oh, my gosh, it's incredible.
But that's not the point of for me.
It's not the point of the climb.
For me, the point of the climb is to get up and down safely and have an incredible
experience and to learn throughout the way.
So, yeah, I mean, there's lots of times where we've turned around.
So, you know, I did climb Cotopaxi, a big, big peak in Ecuador.

(12:30):
Then we also tried to do what's the other one, another 19,000 foot peak in Ecuador.
And we actually turned around on that one because it was heavily crevasse.
And I actually did through I did fall through an ice bridge.
I opened up an ice bridge and so fell down into a crevasse there.

(12:51):
And, you know, we had to stop and check with our party and we just we turn around.
So, yeah, the conditions have to be good and you have to be willing to just change
and move when the conditions aren't aren't right for you to make it to the top.
You said that you're not a summit fever person.

(13:11):
Nope, not anymore.
No, not anymore.
OK, I guess what does that look like to not be a summit fever person?
Are you just out there kind of making your way to the top, kind of taking in the view,
smelling the flowers, and then if you reach a situation, an impasse, then, you know,

(13:35):
you're more likely to be like, you know, it's not a big deal.
I'll turn around.
Yes, yes and no, for sure.
Definitely when we reach that point in the road, we I like to stop and chat with my
partners like, hey, you know, how's the snow for you?
Are you seeing any red flags?
Are you hearing any whooping?
Are you seeing any cracking, shooting cracks?

(13:56):
Are you what's the weather doing?
Like, how's your mindset?
So all these things like I want to talk about with my partner and if they or I don't
feel comfortable or there are red flags or, you know, we're getting in the yellow or
orange or red zone in terms of our comfort, then we should be fine with turning around.

(14:19):
So those are conversations that you should be willing and able to have at the ready
with your partner and yourself.
You said before that you aren't a summit fever person anymore.
Does that mean that you used to be?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
When I was a teen, when I was a young, young person, I love getting to the top of

(14:42):
mountains.
And for me, it's like, well, you know, so Cody, you grew up in Anchorage, so we had
Flattop right behind our houses in Anchorage and Chugach here.
And Flattop is such an easy, accessible mountain, but it still feels so big when you're
on it and when you're in it.
So it's, you know, I would run up Flattop and try to beat my time all the time.

(15:05):
And so but I wouldn't want to do Flattop unless I was going to get to the top.
And that was kind of silly of me back in the day.
But it's just kind of how I trained.
It was my mindset back in the day.
But now, you know, I don't mind doing, you know, climbs or or mountains or any
objective and not going going out of the field, not be like, hey, I have to get the

(15:26):
top of that to ski down or the top of that summit to to feel to feel successful.
That doesn't that doesn't really matter to me.
It's nice, but it doesn't really matter to me anymore.
I wonder if it doesn't matter to you anymore because.
You've been climbing for so many years now and you've done so much that now maybe

(15:49):
you don't feel like you need to prove yourself.
Yeah, I mean, I definitely feel I just turned 39 on Friday.
Well, happy birthday to me.
Happy birthday.
Yeah, thanks.
Yeah.
So I just I definitely feel way more comfortable in my skin and with my friends
and just my community.

(16:10):
I just feel comfortable with who I am.
So maybe that is what it is.
So I didn't really give it much thought until now.
Yeah. I feel a little bit more settled in.
I'm actually really looking forward to turning 40.
Yeah, that's great.
Get out of my 30s.
Ready to get out of my 30s.
I love it.

(16:30):
You know, I have a question here about fear, and that is.
Do you see fear as something to manage, something to listen to or something to override?
I definitely think fear is something to be listened to.
You should definitely pay attention to fear.

(16:50):
Yes.
100 percent.
Do you want to override it?
I don't know.
I mean, you want to you want to listen to your body.
You want to listen to what fear is saying to you.
And why are you scared?
What's making you fearful?
I had a friend once tell me, don't worry, but take precautions.
And I really like that.
So if you worry, you're going to become anxious and fearful.

(17:14):
And really, like, what are what exactly is that coming from?
And can you just take the precautions to move through that fear and push through that fear?
And that's that's very important.
But I don't think you should turn away from fear.
That's not that's not how that's not how we grow.
Yeah.

(17:34):
Are there situations where fear has actually made you a better climber?
Hmm.
Yeah, sure.
Let's see.
When has fear made me a better climber?
Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean.

(17:55):
Being scared makes you really look at yourself like, what am I scared of?
Why am I scared of that thing?
And can I move through it?
And you learn so much about yourself when you're in those moments by giving yourself grace and
patience and paying attention and asking yourself questions.
So, yeah, I think very much so.

(18:19):
Can you remember a recent time where.
You recognized a fear of your own and, you know, sided in on conquering that
situation or facing that fear head on?
Hmm.

(18:42):
Let's see.
I do a lot of things by myself now, Cody.
So, yeah, being in the backcountry by yourself, it's a different type of risk tolerance,
different level of risk tolerance.

(19:02):
Yeah, being being in the wilderness, there's all these.
There's all these people that sort of make you afraid of going in the backcountry by
yourself because of bears.
Oh, how are you going to protect yourself from bear?
How are you going to protect yourself if you get hurt?
And those are all, you know, those are all like understandable questions.

(19:24):
But I feel like we shouldn't be pumping fear into people for being alone.
It's actually really nice to be able to sit with yourself alone, maybe the mountains by
yourself, if you're willing to lower your your risk a little bit.
But I think being in the wilderness alone, that's kind of where I push through a lot of my
That's kind of where I push through a lot of my personal fear.

(19:50):
Can I do a three day trip by myself safely?
Will I turn around if I if I question things or the conditions aren't just right?
And how does that look for me?
And is it am I going to judge myself or shame myself or myself up or if I'm going to just
enjoy the process? So I think a lot of times in my older

(20:13):
life now, a lot of those experiences come from just being in the mountains by myself.
Yeah. And when did you start going out into the mountains by yourself?
I always kind of have, but more recently in my 30s, because just a lot of my friends have
families, you know, and my partner does two on two off.

(20:37):
So, you know, he's not around all the time to go on my adventures.
And so I guess mostly in my 30s, I've just spent a lot of time in the mountains solo.
Yeah. Are there any climbs that you won't do?

(20:57):
Pretty much anything on the Turnagin Arm.
So for those that are listening that don't know what the Turnagin Arm is,
it's a stretch of road here just south of Anchorage.
And it's a bunch of junky rock called Chugach Crud, basically is what we call it.
And it's just you grab a hold and it falls off in your hand.
And so it's dangerous.

(21:19):
But yeah, you know, I'm definitely not pushing myself into the teens, like 5'11s plus.
I'd rather just do 5'8s, 5'9s all day.
You know, easy, long, like 10 pitch, beautiful climbs.

(21:40):
Like that's what I want to do.
Super fun climbing like that.
But yeah, there's, yeah.
And do I want to climb Everest?
I don't think so.
Do I want to climb Denali?
Sure.
Okay.
So yeah, sure.
There's lots of, yeah.
And does that have to do with proximity?
Well, Denali, I can look at her all the time.

(22:00):
You know, she's just such a striking mountain.
And Everest just seems, yeah.
It just doesn't really appeal to me for whatever reason.
I don't know if it's just, I'm not sure.
Yeah.
But Denali is just, yeah.
Being born and raised in Alaska, I just definitely want to climb that one day
if I'm lucky enough to do it.
I think it's interesting that you just said that you can look at Denali.

(22:24):
You know, it's almost like a little bit of a trophy.
You know, like I did that rather than if you did a mountain outside of Alaska.
You can't really look at that.
You can't really point to it and say, I did that.

(22:44):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, there's something about that, isn't there?
Because, you know, driving down the road here in Anchorage or the highway,
there's a lot of things that I like.
Oh yeah, I went up that.
I went up that.
I went up that.
I did that.
I did that.
So it does, there is something to be said for that for sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like I've heard that a lot from snowboarders who used to do these first

(23:14):
ascents in Valdez and Thompson Pass way back when, you know, like the early nineties,
like late eighties or maybe mid eighties.
And they would just point to a peak and, you know, a helipilot would drop them off
and you hear them talk about it.

(23:36):
You know, it's this point of pride to be like, oh, I did that before, you know,
anybody, I did meteorite before anybody got up there and did it.
And I feel like that adds to, you know, your identity as an Alaskan,
your identity as a snowboarder in that situation.

(23:56):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, that's so interesting.
I mean, the first person that ever skied meteorite, I don't know who that was, but
I mean, that is the, that's, I mean, that line is so striking.
You can see it from the highway.
So it's like, I mean, who doesn't want to ski meteorite?
And, you know, the tusk is, you know, when Dean Cummings skied the tusk,
that was like the most like jaw dropping thing that he got.

(24:20):
He rappelled out of his heli and onto the top of the tusk and then went down to where
just like the Berkshire just hit the mountain and then skied down.
It was like the most insane thing.
And that definitely, for me, let contributed to his identity in the way that I look at
Dean Cummings for sure.
So yeah, you're not wrong when you said that.

(24:42):
You know, as a host, as an interviewer, but also as someone who climbs,
where do you see yourself in these conversations that you have?
Are you a storyteller, a guide, a witness, or something else?
I'm not a storyteller and I'm not a guide.
I've actually never, ever, ever wanted to be a guide.

(25:05):
I worked for Helioski companies for a little over nine years.
And it was like, why don't you guide?
I'm like, no way I'd ever want to do that.
Ever want to do that.
Same with outdoor education.
Like, why don't you go from being an outdoor educator to being a guide?
I'm like, no way would I want to do that.

(25:26):
I like facilitating experiences for people.
I really like helping people learn who they are and helping them learn new tools,
like learn how to cook in the back country, how to use a stove,
how to go poop in the back country, like leave no trace.
I like to teach people how to do things.
And then I like to give, in terms of my podcast,

(25:46):
I really like to give people a platform to share their story
with no shame and no blame, no judgment.
So they feel really safe and comfortable to be able to share their story
to minimize future accidents.
I feel like I'm more comfortable being in the background than being in the foreground.

(26:10):
Have you always been like that?
Oh, no.
I mean, I used to be very extroverted, very, very, very extroverted.
And now I think that I'm very introverted.
And I think somewhere along the lines in my 30s,
I've kind of just stepped back and I've gotten more quiet.

(26:33):
And yeah, definitely more introverted for sure.
Do you know why that is?
Maybe it's what we kind of talked about earlier.
It's just, you know, you kind of, I'm just comfortable with who I am.
I'm comfortable in my skin.
I'm comfortable with where I'm at in life.
I'm comfortable with the things that I've done and accomplished.

(26:53):
I don't feel the need to talk.
I don't feel the need to be in the limelight.
I don't like being in the limelight at all.
I actually get, I get extremely anxious.
I'm really uncomfortable.
So that's why I've put on like two podcasts
because I just don't, I don't want to be.

(27:14):
I don't really like it.
It's very uncomfortable for me.
Are you saying that you think doing the podcast is uncomfortable?
Yes.
You do?
Okay.
Yes.
Can we talk about that?
Sure.
Yeah, no, I don't know.
I just don't like talking about myself.
I don't like talking about myself.

(27:36):
Talking about myself.
I don't like, yeah, it just makes me nervous.
It makes me anxious.
And are we talking about the Sharpend podcast here?
It makes you nervous to do that?
No, the podcast, my podcast doesn't anymore.
I used to actually like re-record my voice
because I just hated the way I would sound

(27:56):
after listening to myself during the editing process.
But I don't care anymore.
It's like, that's how I sound.
That's who I am.
That is Ashley.
Whether I like it or not, this is me.
So I'm more comfortable with my podcast now, for sure.
Especially after 11 years, I better be.
But being a guest on other people's shows,
I've said no so many times because I just feel uncomfortable.

(28:17):
It makes me really anxious.
And I'm actually like way more shy than I used to be.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that I am similar somewhat
because I don't know if I like being on other podcasts
and it's not because I don't like answering questions.

(28:40):
It's just that I talk so much
and I'm so self-analytical and hard on myself
that if I were to be on another podcast,
be interviewed by somebody,
I would be trying to not waste anybody's time.
What can I say right now

(29:01):
that's different from what I've already said?
Yeah, 100%.
And also, what do I have to offer?
It's like, you've been asking me for a long time.
I don't know, two or three years
or something like that to be on the show.
And I'm like, yeah, sure.
And then I try, I'm also really busy
and my schedule is very chaotic.
I have two other part-time jobs along with my podcast

(29:23):
and those other jobs are on call.
My schedule is very,
it could change within five minutes.
So it's really hard to nail me down.
But I also kind of like,
I just don't really know what I have to offer the world
in terms of like, well,
what are people gonna learn from my questions
and my answers?
Like, I mean, is it valuable?

(29:45):
And I don't really know the answer to that question.
But again, that's not really for me to decide.
So it's like, well, if somebody wants to interview me
or hear what I have to say,
then that is because they're genuinely curious
and it's not for me to decide.
So that's what I'm trying to grapple with, I think.
Yeah, I like that.
I like that a lot
because I have thought the same exact thing where,

(30:09):
in my mind, I'm like, I do an interview podcast.
I'm interviewing people because they're interesting,
not because I'm interesting.
And that's how I've always felt about interviewers.
My favorite interviewers are people who ask the question
and then get out of the way for the guest
because the reason that anybody tunes in, in my opinion,

(30:33):
or the reason that I tune in to an interview
is to hear the interviewee,
not the interviewer on episode 2,465.
You've heard enough of that person's voice.
So yeah, I'm similar.
I don't know why people would wanna listen to me.

(30:55):
So I get it.
Well, but on the same note, Cody, they do.
And that's why they listen to the crude podcast
is because they do like you.
And they do like the questions that you ask
and they do like your interview form.
So that's why they listen to that show.
And that's why people listen to The Sharpen
is because they love the stories.
They love to learn from each guest on the show,

(31:17):
but they also like the way that I am.
And I was like, no, they don't.
It's not me.
But I've gotten a lot of emails saying that,
hey, Ashley, thank you so much for being a good host
and for getting out of the way
and letting your guests to share their story
without constantly interrupting them.
And I get that a lot.
And I really appreciate that feedback a lot.

(31:39):
I hope that I can continue to do that
and ask the right questions
when the questions need to be asked.
But it doesn't always go perfect to plan.
And I'm sure I irritate some people
or some listeners per my iTunes reviews,
but we do the best that we can.
So that's all we can do is the best that we can.
Absolutely.

(32:01):
You know, I was doing my research on you
and I came across the fact that
you lost your hearing in your right ear in your 20s.
And since then, you've been completely deaf on that side.

(32:21):
How does that affect your climbing
and then also doing interviews for the podcast?
Well, I did do your research.
Yeah, I definitely, yeah.
So I went to bed.
I don't know what year it was in my early 20s,
but I went to sleep and I woke up the next morning

(32:42):
completely deaf in my right ear.
As you said.
And there wasn't any trauma
or like a concert the day before
or I wasn't cleaning my ears out.
There was nothing that I did that caused this to happen.
So after a while, I kind of was like,
oh, well, it went away in the middle of the night.
It'll probably come back in the middle of the night.
Girl math.
So, you know, some time went by

(33:05):
and I'm like, hi, I still can't hear out of that ear.
Strange.
So I went to the doctor eventually
because my family was like, well, maybe it's a tumor.
And I'm like, well, maybe it is.
So we actually went in and it's not that.
It's called sudden sensory neural hearing loss.
It's a long special name for basically
the nerves died in that ear.

(33:26):
So yeah, I can't hear out of that ear at all.
So my headphones only work on one side.
Well, they work on both sides,
but I can only hear from the one side.
And, you know, it changed my equilibrium a lot.
So I got dizzy pretty quickly,
but I've gotten used to it now.
I actually was fitted for,
when I was giving COVID vaccines in Arizona

(33:47):
one year working for FEMA,
I met an audiologist there
and she actually fitted me for a recycled pair of hearing aids
from a gentleman that just had passed away.
And he's like, I want these earbuds when I die
to go to somebody really nice.
And so this lady was like, hey, you're nice.
Do you want these hearing aids?

(34:07):
And I said, whoa, my goodness, yes.
So she fitted me for them.
And it was really cool
to be able to hear out of both ears.
I was like, oh my God, this is insane.
It was such a crazy sensation after so many,
after, you know, 10 plus years
of not being able to hear out of my right ear.
But to be honest, they're more cumbersome to use.
So I don't use them anymore.
I've gotten used to making it work.

(34:28):
My left ear's really, it's really good.
And if I, you know, I'll often just put,
if I'm sitting next to you or walking alongside of you,
I'll have you on my left side.
When I, when I go to sleep,
I'll actually be on my left side.
So my right ear, like I don't hear anything.
So everything's just sort of muffled.
Yeah.
So there are perks, you know,
to have being deaf on your right ear for sure.

(34:49):
Okay.
The perks of when you sleep
and perks when you're at the bar
and like some, you know, perverts hitting on you.
You just like put them on your right side
and you don't know what they're saying.
So, but yeah, things have changed for me.
My senses are definitely peaked.
Though in my late thirties,
I got really bad allergies.
And so I'm like always plugged up.

(35:12):
And, but my left ear is really good.
Yeah.
Well, that's good.
I'm happy to hear that you've found
the positive repercussions of it.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
With the podcast, you know,
I'm thinking or I'm wondering

(35:34):
what drew you to the idea of building a show
around near misses instead of summits or successes?
I like to learn from people's mistakes.
That's how I learn.
I used to read the books,
Accidents in North American Climbing
by the American Alpine Club
when I was in my teens and twenties.

(35:56):
That book comes out annually
and it's just basically an annual book
they put out that has accidents
from all over the United States
and Canada and Mexico in there,
mountaineering, climbing incidents
and what went wrong
and what the lessons learned
from those incidents were.
And so I'm like, man,
someone should make this into a podcast.

(36:16):
And then about a week goes by
and I'm like, you know what?
I want to do that.
I have no idea how to do it.
And so that's kind of what inspired the idea
was from reading those books
and wanting to listen to them
from crack to crack to crack
instead of reading the book.
What do you think we learn
from near misses, tragedies and triumphs

(36:41):
that we don't from successes?
Gosh, I mean,
you probably remember them more, maybe.
I mean, there's been so many successes
that I've heard,
that so many success stories
that I've heard,
but the ones that,
the stories that I've heard,
the things that stick

(37:01):
in my mind the most
are some of the really bad accidents.
Like the one in particular
that I could think of
is when I interviewed Adam Campbell
when he lost his wife, Laura
in an avalanche
and he skied down to find her.
He found her on the beacon.
He got on the probe,
did a probe strike

(37:22):
and started digging.
And he dug 12 feet down
and then finally exposed
the first part of her body.
And it was her left hand
with her wedding ring on it.
So like that visual for me
is like forever grained
in my brain just from listening to him

(37:45):
share that story with me over a call.
And like imagining
that he could never unsee that.
I could never unhear that.
So, but like, I didn't,
I mean, do I remember half the story
of what he was talking to me
about his ski tour up the mountain
and how that was successful?
I don't really remember
any of that part of the story.
But what I remember

(38:06):
was like the tragedy from the story.
So I don't know.
Maybe it's just,
yeah, what settles for you?
I mean, there's been successes
for sure that have been ingrained
in my brain like
standing on the top of Cotopaxi,
standing on top of Rainier.
So there's been,
I've had successes where I'm like,
oh my gosh,

(38:26):
I just want to fall to my knees
and start crying.
It's so beautiful.
And similarly, I've felt
the same about accidents
and things that I can't unsee.
Mm-hmm.
What do you think it means
that we tend to remember tragedies

(38:52):
and hardships
more readily than we do successes?
I don't know.
This is the human experience.
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like it's,

(39:13):
it's interesting to me
that we as humans,
you know, the human experience,
we tend to focus more on the negative
than we do the positive,
even though we tend to
trudge through the negative
to get to the positive.
And there is positive,
but, you know, here we are
focusing on the negative.

(39:34):
Yeah, we certainly are.
I am certainly my own worst critic,
for sure.
I beat myself up so bad.
It's kind of crazy.
It's like,
I would never talk to you
or my partner
the way that I talk to myself ever.
Mm-hmm.
So it's like,
why am I talking to myself that way?
Why am I saying or thinking
those terrible things
about myself that way?

(39:55):
Why do I do that
when I would never do that
to anybody else?
So it's like,
I try and give myself
the same respect
that I would give anybody else.
And, you know,
yeah, I do think that society puts,
you know, this emphasis on success,
but it's for us to say,
like, well, what is success?

(40:16):
And for me, success has changed.
And we've touched on that already today.
But success in my teens and 20s
was topping out on a climb.
It was getting to the peak of a mountain.
That was success to me.
And if I didn't get to the top,
what's the point?
You know, the objective

(40:38):
is to get to the top.
But now success to me
is getting down safely
and having a really great story to tell
or really good experience
throughout the way.
You know, it's like,
success can look like,
you know, instead of saying,
I asked so many of my listeners,
well, what went wrong?
What did you learn?
What were the lessons learned
from your accident?

(40:58):
And I've now gotten
in the habit of saying,
well, also, what went right?
You know, because those are,
that's equally important to celebrate
than what went wrong.
It's like, what went right?
Like, what did you do?
Why didn't something go wrong?
So even if you do get to the,
even if you do get to the summit of something,
you know, you get back to your car,

(41:20):
yeah, nothing went wrong.
So then you don't need to debrief an accident,
but maybe debrief what went right
and then celebrate those successes.
Mm-hmm. I like that.
Why do you think there's often a gap
between knowing the right decision
and actually making it?
Oh, time, complacency, judgment error, human factor.

(41:49):
There's so many reasons why.
You have so many things that can factor into that,
like why we make these choices.
Yeah, everything in hindsight seems...
2020.
Exactly. And it seems to be easier to figure out,
you know, when you're looking back
and you're thinking like,

(42:09):
oh, I should have done that.
That, you know, the answer was obvious,
but I didn't make the right decision.
Or when listening to my show,
just laying on your couch and saying,
oh, they should have done that.
Like to should on people is so irritating to me.
It's like, okay, well, you weren't there, okay?
And also, by the way,
like that's probably gonna happen to you in the future.

(42:30):
So like quit shitting on people
and quit judging people.
It's like, cause accidents can happen to anybody.
So it's just, that's what my podcast is all about,
is learning from these people,
learning from their lessons,
instead of judging and shaming
and knowing that they, anybody can make a mistake.
That's so important for me to get through on the shows.
Like anybody can make a mistake and everybody will.

(42:53):
Do you think having done this show for 11 years,
you know, talking to all of these people who have,
you know, some type of story for better or for worse
about their climbing experience,

(43:13):
you are more understanding of, you know,
those incidents that happen to people
and less judgy about it.
I'm a compassionate person to my detriment.
My heart is so big.
Like I like feel people when they,
like I'm often like crying on each episode with my guests.

(43:35):
It's like, I mean, holding space for their trauma
and their accident is so emotional for me.
It's emotionally exhausting for me too.
So, but yeah, I don't think that I've ever,
I mean, I probably have back in the day,
but I really don't ever want to judge anybody.
I don't want that in my heart.
I don't like that feeling.
I don't, I try to just look at things objectively

(43:58):
and with an open heart and an open mind.
And I really, I hope that I never judge anybody,
but maybe I might accidentally, but I hope that I don't.
How do you help someone in an interview
reconstruct a moment that may have been chaotic
or even traumatic?

(44:19):
Oh, I just, I walk them through it.
I walk, I have them start from the very beginning,
tell me the whole story from, you know,
every detail they can remember
from what the weather was doing.
Was it sunny?
Was it warm?
What did it sound like?
Were you hungry?
Were you hot?
Were you cold?
And like really making them stop
and think about these little details

(44:39):
helps walk them through the whole experience over again.
That sounds very similar to what a psychiatrist does.
Oh yeah, maybe.
Yeah, it does, because it slows you down
and it gets you in the moment.
It gets you really kind of digging deep

(45:01):
in the vault of your brain to like dig up those details,
those finer moments.
And hopefully you can remember things
that you might not if you're just, you know,
if you're fear-based.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think focusing on those small things

(45:21):
focusing on those smaller details,
like the weather or what you were wearing,
then you can kind of fill in the story around that.
And I think that those details probably feel so innocuous
and, you know, less harmful than falling in a crevasse.

(45:46):
Yeah.
You know, I think it's more manageable to be like,
I was wearing a red hat.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Very interesting.
The brain is very interesting.
Yeah, memory is this ever-evolving thing
that's always shifting and reshaping itself over time.
Do you ever find that a guest's memory gets fuzzy

(46:08):
or changes as they're telling the story?
As they're telling it?
No, not really.
My memory has gotten very fuzzy as time has gone by.
Yeah.
I guess I have white matter on my brain or something.
And so I feel like my memory is slipping in a big way.

(46:31):
I don't remember most of,
I don't remember a lot of stuff from my teens and my early 20s.
And I don't know if that's because I grew up above a paint shop
when I was really little.
Okay.
Or the white matter on my brain.
I'm not really sure,
but I definitely notice I have a hard time remembering a lot of stuff.

(46:52):
Unless it's written down,
yeah, it's challenging.
Yeah.
What does that mean to have white matter on your brain?
I don't know.
I guess it's not a good thing.
Okay.
And if I had health insurance, I'd be able to tell you more, but I don't.
Okay.
Yeah.

(47:12):
Have you found that your guests come to you after having made sense of what happened,
or are they still in the process of understanding it?
Both.
Some aren't, some will reach out to me and say,
hey, I have this story to tell.
And I'll say, okay, you know, what's, you know,

(47:34):
can you give me a paragraph right up of it?
Oh, wow.
That was really recent.
And then like, okay, let's schedule the interview.
And then they'll be like, okay, actually, I'm not ready to talk about it.
Oh, actually, I want to cancel the interview altogether.
So it's really interesting.
Like, but it's up to, you know, maybe their accident happened a year ago.
Maybe it happened five years ago.
Maybe it happened last week.

(47:54):
And so some are not at all ready to share their accident,
or some think they're ready to share,
and they just break down in tears and get very emotional on the call.
So, but I helped them work through that trauma in the moment.
And they're like, oh my gosh, thank you so much.
That was like really healing for me.
So, and then some have had plenty of time to, to kind of

(48:20):
recover, I guess, emotionally from their incident.
So it definitely varies.
There's a big, broad area of like who my guests are and how they show up.
In your experience, how long after an experience is someone ready to talk about it?
It varies per person.

(48:42):
Some people could talk about it.
And also it varies per person.
And it also varies in terms of the, the severity of the incident, right?
So like Adam, who lost his wife, wasn't ready to talk about it at all.
Who lost his wife, wasn't ready to talk about it out of the gate, right?
Of course.

(49:02):
It took him a long time to be able to want to come forward and share what happened that day.
There was a lady who I talked to who, she had an incident
30 years prior to talking to me on the phone.
And she was still hardly ready to talk about it,
and still had not forgiven herself for what had happened.
So that was 30 years prior.

(49:24):
So it's like, it just varies per person.
Do these stories reveal something deeper about why people seek out risk?
You know, these edges, places where consequences are amplified.
It's exciting.
I mean, we, we, we like to flirt with the edge.

(49:45):
That's right.
I mean, it's, it's nice to know who you are when, you know, the weather changes and things.
Again, it's easy to be yourself when it's rainbows and lollipops, right?
But who are you when it's pouring down rain, and you're out of food,
and it's, you're, you're benighted on the route,

(50:06):
and you don't have a sleeping bag or a tent.
Like, who are you in those moments?
So it's exciting.
You learn who you are.
You learn who your partner is.
And that's, that's where, like, that's where the growth is, right?
Again, it's so easy to be yourself.
Rainbow, sunshine, warm weather.

(50:27):
But that's also boring.
Who are you in those moments?
Oh, I have a lot of people.
And also still trying to figure it out every time, you know.
I get scared, for sure.
I could panic, but I can also come out of that and objectively think like,

(50:49):
okay, what is going on?
What, is it just wind that's scaring me?
Or is it, am I actually in danger?
And oftentimes it's just wind, you know.
And like, wind makes everything scarier, doesn't it?
So it's like, if you can just remove the wind altogether,
then it's like, oh, it's actually not that bad.
But yeah, I mean, I'm also learning who I am in those moments.

(51:10):
And I'm trying to grow every, every time shit hits the fan.
I like that.
Have you ever chosen not to release a story?
Yes.
You have, okay.
Yep, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, not everyone's a good storyteller.

(51:33):
It can be disjointed.
It can be like way more effort and work to edit
than I think the value is in terms of the lessons learned or the outcome.
Or, you know, the audio didn't record properly
because of the Wi-Fi connection.
Or there just wasn't, there weren't enough lessons learned.

(51:53):
It was more of like a hero story versus like what I want my audience
and my listeners to get out of it.
So yeah, I probably haven't released 15 of the ones that I've recorded.
It's a shame.
I always feel really bad, but it just, yeah, just the way it is.
Yeah.

(52:15):
And what do those people say, if anything?
Um, it's, it's a delicate conversation, Cody.
Yeah.
It's a delicate, because I want everyone's story to, to be shared for sure.
That's why I do the show.
But there's a lot of factors why it might not be released

(52:39):
for the reasons that I mentioned earlier.
But yeah, it's definitely delicate.
And it makes me, it makes me very uncomfortable to have a conversation.
Yeah.
I bet that's tough.
It is tough.
Yeah.
Um, but it needs to be done sometimes.
And so with that said, if you don't want to release this one, that's fine.

(52:59):
I'm definitely releasing this one.
Well, you can think about it.
You don't have to, if you don't want to.
Um, how does remoteness show up in the decision-making of your guests?
You know, here I'm thinking of Alaska and how it introduces
a level of isolation that changes the stakes.

(53:24):
Yeah.
The farther back that you go, the less, you know, the less resources there are to come save you.
Right.
People know that.
Um, and so that's why people are so scared of pressing the SOS button on their inReach
device or their Zolio devices, because they're like, oh my gosh,
this is going to do a huge ripple effect on and impact people that aren't just in my near circle.

(53:45):
It's going to impact the pilot, the rescuers, the SAR personnel, their families.
So there's, there's definitely like way more involved.
It just, it becomes, it's not just you.
Once you step foot in the back country, there's, you're, you're one of, you have the ability to
impact way more people than just yourself.
And I, and I think that people know that.

(54:09):
How does someone decide to press that SOS button?
I like, or I think that what you just said is really interesting.
You know, that, that someone could be in the back country.
They could be in this really dire situation.
They could be in danger, but then, you know, they're contemplating whether or not

(54:30):
they want to press that button because of the ripple effect that it creates.
Yeah, that's a great question.
And that is that those, those moments before pressing that button
are going to look a lot different for everybody who's like facing that decision.

(54:51):
It's a conversation to have with your partner.
It's, you know, can you, can you get out alone?
Like, yeah, you might, you have a broken arm, but like, are you, is an open or closed fracture?
Like, are you bleeding out?
Can you, can you still walk out on your own, even though you have a broken arm?
So like, these are questions that I, that nobody can answer, but the person involved.

(55:14):
And hopefully they actually sit down and calmly, objectively think about the pros and the cons
before, before pressing that button and, and affecting many more people than themselves.
But I think when we poo-poo people for pressing the button, I think that we should be cautious
about that too, because we don't know what they're going through.

(55:35):
So it's so hard to judge people like, oh, you should have called SAR for that.
Because it's like, well, who are we to know?
We're not in that, we're not in their position.
So it's just, I think being cautious about that is, is very important.
How often do you encounter romanticism about Alaska from people who maybe you're not from here?

(56:07):
Everybody.
Oh my gosh.
Alaska has got this lure, this, this drama behind it.
You know, I mean, you see that even today, all the, all the heli-skiers that come up here every
year, it's, it's the cream of the crop.
It's, you know, it's the last frontier.
So Alaska is very romanticized, which does pose, you know, danger.

(56:31):
But people, we call it the Alaska factor.
So USGS maps are in the, like in the lower 48, there are 40 foot contour intervals.
But in Alaska, the USGS maps are 100 foot contour intervals.
So when people come up to Alaska to go hiking, and they, they're like, oh my goodness, they
didn't really take that into account.

(56:52):
Like you could have a 99 foot cliff, you know, in the real world, that would not show up
on a map in Alaska, because, you know, our contour intervals are 100 feet plus.
So it's, it's so fascinating, the Alaska factor, like everything is bigger up here.
There's more bears, there's more bears, there's bad weather, there's, I mean, there are bad
bugs, like everything is worse up here for sure.

(57:14):
And people, people have to definitely stop and pause and give the Alaska respect it needs.
Mm hmm.
Do people who have told you their stories, and their story involves Alaska, do those
people not return to Alaska because of their situation?

(57:40):
Or does that situation or incident deepen their connection to Alaska?
Both.
Some people get so terrified of Alaska for the Alaska factor, they never return.
But some people are like, oh my gosh, it was such a beautiful experience.
I learned so much.
I'm going to come back next year and try it again.

(58:00):
Or try a different objective.
Oh yeah, it's, you get, you get all different kinds of people.
Alaska is such a beautiful place.
Oh my gosh, it's such a beautiful place.
And, you know, you mentioned Tops of Pass before, there's people that come to Tops of
Pass every single year.
Every spring they come up for two, two weeks to four weeks.
Every single spring I'll see them at the pass, you know, snowboarding or skiing.

(58:23):
And those are diehard.
So they come back every year.
Some people come back, come one year and are like, oh my gosh, that was next level.
I got my ass handed to me.
I'm so embarrassed.
I'm never coming back.
Many climbers carry a strong sense of identity tied to competence.

(58:44):
What happens when that identity is challenged in these moments, these incidents, these accidents?
Whether identity is challenged?
I mean, risk makes you look inward.
Like when you're, when you are scared or when you're doing something risky, you have
every fiber in your being should be paying attention.

(59:06):
So it's just, it's just how you move through that risk.
That's, that's what defines you.
How have you seen that define people?
You know, from your own perspective, hearing a story and seeing the outcome, seeing the
repercussions?
Well, there's growth.

(59:27):
I think people are growing from what mistakes they made or what they learned from their
accident and how that impacts themselves, their partner and their families and their
friends.
Yeah.
It's, um, it could be rewarding.
It can be traumatizing for a lot of people, what they're going through, what they've seen,
what they've done.

(59:50):
You know, something I keep thinking about is, you know, I think about, you know, I think
you know, something I keep thinking about is, um, you've been doing the show for over
a decade.
And when you have all of those years of people telling you stories, I feel like you start

(01:00:15):
drawing certain conclusions.
Do you have any of that?
Do you have any, like, reflections?
Complacency is a big theme in all of my stories.
I mean, people, so many of the incidents would not have occurred if people were not complacent.
Um, but also, I mean, there's so many different types of stories and accidents that I've interviewed

(01:00:37):
and shared on the Sharpen podcast that they're all so different, you know?
So coming to each interview with an open mind, an open heart, allowing that person to share
their story and their own experience without creating shame, blame, or judgment within
that space allows them to be really vulnerable, um, and coming to it without any conclusions

(01:01:00):
ahead of time.
That's why I don't actually have them tell me the whole story before the show, because
I want to, I do want to authentically listen to the story and feel actively engaged when
they're telling me their story and they're sharing that with me in the moment versus,
like, knowing what's going to happen beforehand.
Yeah, I like that.
I think that's good.
I think that that's, uh, I mean, that's, that's almost journalistic, you know, where you,

(01:01:23):
you want your reaction to be genuine.
Yes.
100%.
What does it mean to you now to be a good climber?
Uh, well, I don't climb very often.
Uh, well, I don't climb very much anymore.

(01:01:45):
Uh, you know, I, being, being, well, living in Alaska, it's, it's hard to be a good climber
in Alaska, to be honest, I think, unless I'm climbing at the rock gym all the time, but
I'm not.
So it's, unless you're climbing on a regular basis, you're, it's hard to, it's hard to
stay good at what you do.
It's hard to stay in climbing shape.

(01:02:06):
It's hard to be able to climb five, 10 plus.
So I, I'm just not a climber anymore.
And, um, it's, it's again, there's not that much rock here to, to be consistently good
at it.
Unfortunately.
Do you think that that affects your interviewing that, um, you're not regularly participating

(01:02:34):
in the thing that you're interviewing about, or are you able to, uh, almost take like a
coach's perspective?
Like I, I, I know the game so I can still talk about it.
Yeah, the latter for sure.
But, um, I do climb sometimes, but just not like I used to.
And, and not every one of my stories is about climbing.

(01:02:55):
It's, it's, uh, it's way more than just rock climbing now.
It's mountaineering, it's backpacking, it's hiking.
So there's lots of outdoor activities that I interview people on at the end of just
climbing solely.
What does it mean to you now for you to be out there, you know, now almost 40 years old

(01:03:19):
versus when you were younger?
I don't know.
I don't know if there's a, uh, yeah, I think the biggest difference is that I'm not objective
oriented anymore.
I'm like, I want to enjoy the journey.
Um, I, I also like, you know, sharing it with people.
So like, you know, this weekend we went to Swan Lake cabin on the resurrection trail

(01:03:41):
with my friend Renee and her daughter, her three-year-old daughter Huxley.
And it was just so fun to see the joy that it brought up with their faces.
That was, that was so fun for me.
So, uh, yeah, just sharing it with people that you love.
Mm-hmm.
When you think about your own life in the outdoors,

(01:04:07):
what has it shown you about yourself, your tendencies, your limits, even your blind spots?
Uh, the wilderness has a way of showing you your limits.
Like we, so we all have, we all have our perceived limits, right?
So like, oh, I think that that's as far as I can go.

(01:04:28):
Or I think that's as hard as I can climb.
Or I think that that's whatever, right?
We all have what we think that we can do, but those are perceived limits.
I like to push past our perceived limits and try and find that real edge.
And that's, what's exciting for me is, is doing that for myself and also helping people

(01:04:49):
find their edge.
Mm-hmm.
Well, Ashley, those are all the questions I have for you.
I want to thank you for your time and for the work you've done and you're doing with
The Sharp End, you know, giving people a way to understand what happens when things don't

(01:05:12):
go according to plan.
Well, thank you very much for having me on the show.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
You can support this podcast at patreon.com crude magazine.

(01:05:36):
You can also support this podcast with a one-time payment at buymeacoffee.com crude magazine.
Crude Conversations is written, hosted, and produced by me, Cody Liska, for Crude Magazine.
Music was produced by Elkota Beats.