This might be the most important episode we've ever done, and we swear we’re not just saying that. If you work in or around philanthropy, stop what you're doing and listen.
Nonprofits are facing record demand—higher than during COVID—and they're getting less funding. Not just from government. From foundations too. The sector is in freefall, and many of the people with the resources to help don't even see a problem.
Eric sits down with Elisha Smith Arrillaga, Vice President at the Center for Effective Philanthropy, to unpack their devastating new report, A Sector in Crisis: How US Nonprofits and Foundations Are Responding to Threats. The findings reveal a staggering disconnect: 40% of nonprofits say that funders have shifted priorities in ways that are less helpful at this dire moment.
And get this - 20% of foundations say they don't have much responsibility to help nonprofits navigate this moment at all!!
This isn't a wake-up call. It's a five-alarm fire. And if foundations don't start closing the gap between what they think they're doing and what nonprofits actually need, organizations will close. Communities will suffer. And philanthropy will have failed the very moment it was built for. Unless philanthropy as we know it is just no longer useful.
Listen now. Share it with your board. Share it with your program officers. Share it with anyone who still believes philanthropy can rise to meet this moment—because that moment is now.
Follow Let's Hear It and leave a rating so more people can find the show.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kirk (00:00):
Welcome to, let's Hear It.
Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.
Kirk (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality
of life by championing the arts.
Promoting Early childhood literacy andsupporting research to cure chronic
disease online@krfoundation.org.
We are also sponsored by the PrevisFoundation, a foundation creating
an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:35):
Check out their amazingly good podcasts.
Stop and talk.
Hosted by Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them at stopand talk podcast.com.
Kirk (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.
Eric (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's hear@cast.com.
Kirk (00:49):
And if you'd like the show, please, please, please rate us on
Elisha (00:53):
Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us.
Kirk (00:55):
Let's get onto the show.
Are we doing this?
We're do this.
Oh man, this is started.
We're, I had
Eric (01:01):
no idea.
Kirk (01:02):
So can we stop for a second and say Happy New Year, even though
it's gonna be well into the yearin this and, and I think this is a
whole new season for, let's hear it.
Eric (01:09):
Well, actually our Kristin Graham episode was the first episode of the year.
Kirk (01:14):
Yeah.
But then did we pause and say, welcometo our brand new season, celebr.
Eric (01:19):
No, we didn't
Kirk (01:20):
celebrate.
Celebrate new high fives.
See, 'cause this is just becoming.
This is an old hat.
It's
Eric (01:25):
like, it's, you know, it's, it's just a continuous season.
A continuous 140 episodeseason or whatever it is.
Kirk (01:32):
No celebration, no pause, no reflection, no thank
Eric (01:35):
yous.
You
Kirk (01:35):
know,
we're
Eric (01:35):
too busy to celebrate.
Kirk (01:39):
I don't think we should lose the newness though.
I don't think we should.
I can't believe we pulled Thes.
This was the best ideaof your entire life.
Was doing this podcastfor all these years.
Was,
Eric (01:47):
this was your stupid idea and it continues to be a labor of hate.
Happy New Year.
Well, once removed,
Kirk (01:55):
you're welcome to our labor of hate.
So Doctor Alicia Smith, Arga for theCenter for Effect and Philanthropy.
Thank you for coming up.
Let's hear.
I know what's ahead is a littlebit of a bummer conversation.
I just give just alittle bit of a hat tip.
But I think this is so importantthat we're talking about this, that
(02:17):
I feel like that our next coupleconversations are actually a very
nice sequence of what's ahead.
But will you please set up thisconversation because I, this is so
critical and, and I don't know if we'rejust lucking out that this is landing
where it's landing in the calendar,but this is absolutely what we should
be starting the year talking about.
And I know Oregon, there'sgonna be a lot more conversation
(02:37):
about these topics going ahead.
So.
Set up what we're about to listento here because it's, it's sobering.
I'll be honest.
It's sobering, but, but it's, it'sreally important that we're doing this.
I'm really glad that youguys had this conversation.
Eric (02:50):
I, I guess I would say if you are participating in Dry January,
this sobering conversation with AliciaSmith, Ariaga of the Center for Effective
Philanthropy comes at a perfect time.
Not only that, but I believethat this episode will drop.
By the time you hear this episode,you're almost ready to drink again in
(03:12):
February, which I will also recommend.
So I spoke with Alicia, who'san old colleague of mine
from the Hewlett Foundation.
She's now vice president at the Centerfor Effective Philanthropy, and they.
Have just put out this reportcalled A Sector in Crisis.
Mm-hmm.
How US nonprofits and foundationsare responding to threats.
(03:33):
And what it really should say ishow US nonprofits are attempting
to respond to threats and howfoundations are thwarting them.
And I'm, you know, I know thatsounds like a, a rash statement,
but this report reveals thatfoundations are falling short of their
responsibility to serve nonprofitsand the people that they support.
(03:55):
Full stop.
And as I say in my conversationwith Alicia, some of, I used
to work in a, a foundation.
Some of my best friends are foundations,but this report reveals that we have
a big, big problem in philanthropy.
Now, one more thing, kindof a little listening.
A listening guide or alistening assistance.
(04:16):
As you listen to this episode, uh, wecontinue to talk about the so-called
current context, but when everytime either one of us says current
context, I would like you in yourmind to replace the phrase shit show.
And that's all I will say.
Kirk (04:37):
I'm glad we can laugh because there's not a lot to be laughing about.
And I'm also love this discussion becauseit's a real time, time capsule in how
a bunch of super smart people thathave wide capacity to reflect on and
and understand the world around them.
Makes sense of a moment that franklydoesn't make sense to any of us.
And I have to say, for theCenter for Electric Philanthropy,
(04:57):
we're so grateful that Dr. Argaand her team can do this work.
And also, let's, let's call outthe co-authors for this report.
So the reports that sector ofcrisis, nonprofits, and foundations
are responding to threats.
So Sierra Granter Yep.
As a co-author, Ellie Bto Yep.
Is a, a co-author and ChristinaInn, along with the Dr. Alicia.
So this is sobering.
(05:19):
It's important.
There's a lot to, todigest and think through.
But, but that was the thing thatstruck me as you were talking about
this, Eric, is that this notion ofthreats and context and pressure, this
is a really historically difficulttime to be in this field trying to
operate in any way that makes sense.
And again, massive thanks to the Centerfor Effective Philanthropy, this team
(05:42):
and all of your work to try to helpmake sense out of a period of time that
frankly doesn't make sense to any of us.
So.
So, go ahead, Eric.
Eric (05:49):
Yeah.
The, the one thing that I'll say isthat for folks who, uh, just have a
tendency to listen to the interview andthen turn it off, and I'm sure, yeah.
You know, you know who you are out there.
Kirk (05:58):
Yeah.
Eric (05:58):
I would recommend that you hang around for my conversation with you
or your conversation with me, what Ilovingly refer to as the blah blah,
because the top of my head is coming off.
Kirk (06:11):
So this is, uh, Dr. Spent.
For the Center for Effective Philanthropy.
Let's hear it.
We'll listen and we'll come back.
Eric (06:19):
Friends, listeners, people, we have a problem.
Nonprofits are facing record demandfor their services right now,
and I don't need to tell you why.
And this demand is higher than it wasduring COVID, and at the same time, many
of them are losing funding and now notjust from government, from philanthropy.
(06:41):
A new report calls thismoment an existential crisis,
but here's the disconnect.
Foundations, by and large,don't see this moment as an
existential threat to themselves.
They recognize the pressureon nonprofits, but they don't
feel the same kind of pressure.
So what is going on here Today, I amtalking with Alicia Smith Ariaga co-author
of a new report from the Center forEffective Philanthropy that digs into
(07:04):
who's stepping up, who's hesitating,and why the gap between foundations and
nonprofits feels uncomfortably wide.
Alicia, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Elisha (07:15):
Thanks so much for having me, Eric.
Excited to be here today.
Eric (07:18):
I can't wait to talk about this report that you folks did.
Now, I should also mention that youare a co-author with Ellie Buto, Sierra
Gr Hoffer, and Christina M over atthe Center for Effective Philanthropy.
So I wanna give them credit as well.
Elisha (07:34):
Yes.
Eric (07:35):
First of all, how you doing?
It's been a while.
Elisha (07:38):
I'm doing well.
It's nice to see you,Eric, after some time
Eric (07:42):
sometime we, that might be measured in decades, but yes, we used
to work together at Hewlett a whileago, and I'm glad to see that you
are on the phenomenal rocket ride.
As in the ascension in philanthropy,while I make my long slow,
uh, what would we call it?
Dignified, it's not so dignified.
Decline.
So congratulations.
(08:04):
I was also told to be nice tothe people you meet on the way
up because you're gonna meet thesame people on the way back down.
And I can prove that listenersto this show may know a thing
or two about the center for.
Effective philanthropy.
We've had some of your colleagues on it.
We've also had the, the great and goodPhil Buchanan, the CEO on the show.
I consider it the premier researchinstitution studying philanthropy.
(08:27):
Of course.
What do I know?
But let me, let's talk a littlebit about your work at, at the
Center for Effective Philanthropy.
What do you focus on?
Elisha (08:34):
So my team at the Center for Effective Philanthropy has
the great privilege of doingindependent research on the sector.
We produce anywhere from four toseven reports a year that are publicly
available on everything from topics like.
McKenzie Scott's Giving and theorganizations who received those
grants to a regular annual report onthe state of nonprofits to also, in
(09:00):
this moment, we've been doing a lotof work looking at the current context
and how this political moment hasimpacted nonprofits and foundations.
Eric (09:09):
I, I like that you have, you coined this term, or you decided to
use this concept, the current context.
When, when referring to the insanitythat is happening out of Washington, the
threat that foundations and nonprofitsare under, uh, it's almost quaint
that we're talking about is a currentcontext, but what, what is underneath
(09:30):
that, that phrase is the crazy show.
Do I have is, is that fair enough?
Elisha (09:36):
Yes, it is fair.
In fact, in the s when we, the datawe'll get into later, when we talk
about the survey and the interviews,the way we define the current context
to respondents is a series of executiveorders, other legal actions that
have taken place since January, 2025that have specifically targeted the
nonprofit and philanthropic sectors.
Eric (09:57):
Right?
Yeah.
So, no, no.
No surprise what the current context is.
Yeah, it's, it's a nice, gentle way oftalking about it, but I, I, I get it.
I, and I don't, I don't disagree.
It might as well not go crazy here.
Alright, so let, let'sget into the report.
What were you hoping to learn whenyou, when you conducted this research?
Elisha (10:15):
We had a couple of big questions and main ones were really how are
nonprofits experiencing this moment?
Both the staff atorganizations, the fiscal.
Impacts, given that we knew there were alot of government funding cuts happening.
And then how were nonprofitsperceiving the reaction of foundations.
And then for foundations, we'rewondering how are foundations responding?
(10:37):
Are they thinking aboutchanging their grant making?
How are they working with their boards?
And so some of those are someof the questions that we dug
into as part of this research.
Eric (10:46):
And let's just get into the findings.
What were the headlines?
Elisha (10:51):
Well, there were a couple of big headlines.
First is that nonprofit leaderswho we surveyed overwhelmingly,
and it was a representative sampleof nonprofits across the US and
nonprofits that received foundationfunding were those in the sample.
And they unequivocally see this as amoment of threat, a really existential
(11:11):
threat to their organizationsand the communities they serve.
And the reason for that is because,similar to what you said in the beginning
of our time together, there's anincreased demand for their services.
At the same time, there have beensignificant cuts to their funding.
Eric (11:26):
And I also wanna get at a little, I want to get too wonky about statistics.
This is a representative, yousaid is a representative sample.
So representative sampleof nonprofit organizations.
And to be clear, are you excluded?
Certain religious organizationsand certain health organizations,
I'm assuming because they mighthave viewed the data relative to
(11:47):
the social serving organizations.
Do I?
Is that a A generally fair,
Elisha (11:52):
yeah.
Eric (11:52):
Assessment.
Elisha (11:53):
Yeah.
That is a fair assessment.
That is correct.
Yes.
Eric (11:56):
And you did a representative sample of all foundations that
made more than a couple milliondollars a year worth of grants.
Elisha (12:02):
That's right.
All foundations that do morethan $5 million in grant making.
Were surveyed across the US
Eric (12:10):
and since you folks over there at CEP are extremely good
statisticians, I, I have confidencethat these, that these responses are
representative and I assume you do too.
Correct?
Elisha (12:22):
That is correct, yes.
It's one of the thingsthat we proud ourselves on,
Eric (12:25):
so I'm just stipulating for the audience Yeah.
That this stuff is not made up.
It's not, you didn't putyour hand on the scale.
You didn't decide who to talkto and who not to talk to.
Elisha (12:35):
Exactly.
Eric (12:35):
This is, this is true.
People, if you're listening, it's true.
Don't, don't scream about the research.
And people often go into the, oh, Idon't the methodology, so therefore
I'm not gonna listen to what you said.
So I, I would say just listen to whatwe, we have to say here and believe it.
Okay?
Elisha (12:50):
Yes.
Eric (12:50):
Let, let's, let's start.
I have so many questions for you,and the top of my head is coming
off, but I'm gonna do my best tokeep my, my act together here.
Let me see if I got this right.
You, you say that nonprofits are facingrecord demand so higher than COVID.
This is Defcon, whatever.
And yet a significant share of therespondents reported that they're
(13:13):
getting reduced foundation funding.
Am I on, did I read that right?
Are are foundations actuallypulling back at this moment,
or is am I missing something?
Elisha (13:22):
So you're right Eric.
I mean, what, what our data show thatwe gathered from nonprofits is that 56%.
Either have experienced somereduction in funding or anticipate
experiencing some reduction infunding from federal government.
But then if we look at their foundationfunding, 60%, 61% actually have either
(13:48):
already experienced a reduction infunding from their funders or their
anticipating some reduction in funding.
So that's 61% of nonprofits reportedthat in the when we reached in this data.
Eric (14:00):
Wow.
Okay.
That's really bad thing numberone, there's a greater need.
Yes.
And for whatever reason, foundationsare not delivering to support that need.
Elisha (14:12):
That's right.
Yeah.
Eric (14:14):
Okay.
Now, the other side, so youobviously you talk to foundations.
Foundations are telling you thatthey're not nearly as affected by the
current context as their grantees and.
If I have this, about half thefoundations say the current context
has made it harder to achieve theirgoals, and the other half don't.
(14:34):
So half of the foundations out thereis, eh, not so bad what's going on.
There are, is this a specific set offoundations that you can read into?
Oh, I understand why they say that.
Or do we just have thisreally weird problem?
Elisha (14:50):
Really, it seems what we see in the data is that there really
mixed reactions on the side of.
Funders.
So just like you said, the data showsthat there's some percent of folks who are
saying, Hey, we're not able to do the workthat we normally do to achieve our goals.
And then there's another groupthat say, actually we are,
(15:13):
we're not experiencing that.
I mean, what we do.
No, is that 80% of 81%, actually,of foundation leaders who we
interviewed, they really were clearthat foundations have a significant
role to play in supporting nonprofits.
But then when we look at the data,that's where it becomes really
ambiguous about how much that's actuallyhappening on the ground right now.
Eric (15:35):
S So if you're a foundation and you're in the business of supporting
nonprofits to achieve your goals.
And your own nonprofits, your grantees aresaying they're in a world of hurt, and yet
you say, eh, you know, we're doing okay.
How does that, how does that even connect?
I, I, I'm having a really hard timeunderstanding how it, I foundation look.
(15:56):
I used to work for, for a foundationyou used to work for Found.
I love foundations.
Some of my best friends are foundations.
But if we're going to generalizearound the, this institution,
how can they possibly say that?
If their grantees are doing worse andthey are in greater need, and they are
not meeting that need, that they're doingokay, or is it just that they, they don't
(16:19):
understand their own grantees perceptions?
Elisha (16:22):
Well, I think that's a big part of what's happening.
One of the things that we did whenwe gathered the data was to ask the
same set of questions of foundationsand of nonprofits around things
like, how well do you understand thechallenges your grantees are facing?
And then we asked nonprofits,how well do you think foundations
are understanding your challeng?
And for instance, what we seeon that question is that 93% of
(16:44):
foundations say we understand thechallenges our grantees are facing.
Whereas when we ask that same questionof nonprofits, only 54% of nonprofits
think that foundations understandthe challenges that they're facing.
And then we see those samesorts of discrepancies when
we ask about communication.
And so what it looks like is that thereis some communication really that needs to
(17:06):
be happening between funders and granteesabout what's actually happening in this
moment and what it is that nonprofitsneed to better align around those things
Eric (17:16):
for those organizations or foundations that seem to be in alignment.
Now, needless to say, you're not.
Interviewing grouped pairs, for example,because these things are anonymized,
so you have to draw some inferences.
But are you able to seeany lines in which the.
Grantee is reporting that my fundersdo a good job of communicating
(17:41):
with me, and I do have a sense ofthem, and they have a sense of me.
Are there ways in which thisline of communication is working?
Do we have any, are there any glimmersof hope about how foundations and
nonprofits can better communicate in orderto be able to meet each other's needs?
Elisha (17:58):
Yeah, there are.
There are a lot of examplesof that also on the data.
I mean, one of the thing wetalked about all the quantitative
data that we gathered.
But one of the things I didn't mention atfirst, but I referenced it a little bit
earlier, was that we did these interviews,30 interviews of nonprofits, 30 interviews
of foundations from around the countryto supplement that quantitative data.
And what we heard in a lot of theinterviews, 'cause we could really
(18:21):
dig in more and understand what washappening in some of these situations,
was that we heard from nonprofits whowere, um, having more success working
with funders during this moment.
That they were doing things like havingreg regular conversations with their
foundation partners, being able to haveto ask for things like space to meet
(18:41):
as a collective of organizations thatmight be thinking about collaborating
together, being able to have conversationsabout things beyond the grant.
In terms of capacity building, and sowhat came through really clearly in
the interviews was the need for justbeing in really close communication
and understanding what's happeningin communities at this moment too.
Eric (19:03):
I also have seen a lot out in the field about
foundations that are very worried.
That the government is gonnaraise their excise tax.
They're very worried that, thatthey're gonna be investigated
for one thing or another.
They don't seem to be merely as worriedabout the effectiveness of their grantees.
This also, not only does it feelreally tone deaf to me, but it also.
(19:27):
Suggests to me that many of thesefoundations don't understand about
how to actually get change made.
What are you hearing about in, inthose interviews with foundations?
Can you try to characterize thetone of their own sense of risk?
Elisha (19:45):
Yeah, I mean, we asked both in the interviews and in the
quantitative data about risk, andthe results were super interesting.
So when we asked.
Foundations, how willing do you perceivethat your foundation is to take risk?
69% were they said, oh, we, wethink we're willing to take risks.
But when we asked nonprofits thatsame question about their funders,
(20:06):
only 30% of nonprofits reported thattheir funders are willing to take.
Risk.
And so I, I think too, there's alot, we came out in the interviews,
are there a lot of questions aroundwhen we say risk, what do we mean?
So, and who's risk and who's at risk?
And so for instance, many nonprofitsthat we interviewed talked about
the risk of having to close or tomerge or to not be able to provide
(20:29):
services to the communities thatthey're working with, whether
they're providing meals or shelter,not being able to provide the risk.
Of individuals notreceiving those services.
And then, you know, on the foundationside, when we talk about risk, many of
the risks that came up in some of theinterviews were like the risk of being
in alignment with compliance for legalissues, the risk of spending more than
(20:53):
having planned out of an endowment.
You know, like those kinds of anexample, the risk of not being able to
execute on a strategy that had been set.
And so I think, you know,when we're talking about.
Risk is one of the other reasons thatcommunication is so important because
whose risk and who's at risk andwhat we mean can be very different
(21:14):
depending on where someone is sitting.
Eric (21:17):
All right.
Here's another one.
I would like you to just check my math.
Here's a statistic thatcaught, caught me short.
About two thirds of the foundationsmade emergency or rapid response grants.
Okay, great.
Good for you, but only abouta third increased payout.
So if you, if you made these emergencygrants, but you didn't increase your
(21:37):
payout in the same number, then areyou just robbing Peter to pay Paul?
Are they just taking away from otherareas to fund these emergency grants?
So somebody's gettingthe short end of this.
Did I do the math correctly?
Elisha (21:51):
That is a great question, Eric, and one of the same wonderings
that we had in interviews.
We asked actually, foundations thattalked about setting up emergency response
funds, what that looked like, how theymade that decision, and some of what we
heard in the interviews was that for theserapid response grants, even though folks
(22:13):
were doing them, they were often small.
So whether that's.
5K or three K or 10 K, you know, likea, a grant to help accelerate some
of the work an organization is doing.
But depending on the size ofthe organization, you know, not
necessarily a transformationalgrant to help them move through what
was a really big moment of crisis.
(22:35):
And so I think thispoint you raise around.
If only 30% of folks are increasingpayout, but they're doing rapid response
grants to your, to your point, the maththere somewhere is noting in terms of.
Where those funds are coming fromor if they're from the regular pot.
Like we didn't ask specifically everyorganization that question, but I think
(22:55):
you're onto something there in terms ofthe discrepancy that seems to appear.
Eric (22:59):
Alright.
I'm proud of myself for the math.
What we're gonna take, I, this is,this conversation has flown by so far.
We're gonna take a very, very, very shortbreak and we, we will be right back with
Alicia Smith Ariaga of the Center forEffective Philanthropy right after this.
Kirk (23:13):
You are listening to, let's Hear It, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hosted by
Eric (23:18):
Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of BreakfaRules with Glenn Gallic, CEO of the
St. Stukey Foundation, as he chatswith inspiring leaders in philanthropy,
government media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't
work so that we can build a futurethat does Check them out wherever you
Kirk (23:38):
get your podcasts.
And now back to the show.
Eric (23:45):
And we are back with Alicia Smith Ariaga of the Center
for Effective Philanthropy.
She's the co-author of a new report, aSector in Crisis, how US Nonprofits and
Foundations are responding to threats.
If you haven't figured it out,I'm, I'm very energized about this
report and kind of gobsmacked.
I have to tell you.
Here's another one, another statistic, andmaybe you have an answer for this, maybe
(24:09):
not, but I just wanted to raise it anyway.
20% of the foundations that you spokewith said that they don't believe that
foundations have much responsibility tohelp nonprofits navigate this moment.
Now, in the interviews that youdid, do you have any insight?
Into how or why theycould make this statement.
Elisha (24:31):
There were some interviewees that we talked to and foundations
around the country who they, theirsentiment at this moment was, we've
been in conversations with our board.
Our board is really asking usquestions around like, is it really
that, is it really a crisis moment?
Is it this moment reallythat different from COVID?
(24:51):
Is it a moment where we needto like really shift things
in some transformational way?
And so I would say there's definitelysome disagreement in the field in terms of
what this moment calls for, for the sector
Eric (25:05):
my brain first goes to, okay.
Board members have a tendency to have adifferent life experience than the people,
than the foundations even that they.
Support or that they serve on their boardof, and most certainly from the people who
those organizations are meant to support.
So this is just a call to actionabout, let's make sure that our
boards reflect the communities thatyou're hoping to support, so that.
(25:29):
These people are out of touch.
Elisha (25:31):
Yeah.
Eric (25:32):
Alright, here, here's another, here's another argument that has been,
this is a typical thing in philanthropy,which is, oh, our job isn't to replace
government funding and we don't have theresources, we don't have the whatevers.
But does the logic breakdown in a realcrisis when people are learning, losing
access to food and safety in healthcare?
And the way I think about it is,okay, if the levy breaks and FEMA
(25:55):
doesn't show up, do we really sayit's not our job to stop the flood?
Or do you just like, okay, it wasFEMA's job, they didn't do it,
and the place is flooding now.
Like, what are we gonna do?
And so does, does that logic break down?
Does government philanthropything break down right now?
Because right now it seems tobe the, the moment of all times.
Elisha (26:15):
I would agree, Eric, and actually many of the quotes that we include,
there are some really powerful quotesfrom the interviews that we include
in the report where there are somefunders who are calling others to task,
and they're saying if there's somequotes, and I don't remember the, the
exact wording, but one foundation, CEO,who says, if you're waiting for, if
(26:36):
you're on the sidelines waiting for theexistential moment, that moment is now.
Now is a moment to act, but basedon what we see in the data, there's
not, the majority of organizationsaren't necessarily reacting.
Uh, foundations aren't reacting inthat way with increasing payout or,
and there are a lot of folks who arechanging some of their practices.
(26:57):
They are doing more generaloperating support or changing their
application or reporting requirements.
But we're seeing, as you saidbefore, only 30, around 30%.
Of foundations who have increased payoutat this moment when we know there's an
increased need on the nonprofit side.
Eric (27:15):
This is another interesting thing 'cause I, I've been
participating with grantee perceptionreports for a really long time.
I was actually, when I was atHewlett, we were the first, one
of the first foundations to,to publish our, our GPR online.
And, and people were, oh mygod, I can't believe you're.
Telling people how badly you didon communications When I was a
communications guy, I might havebeen able to talk my boss outta
Kirk (27:38):
that.
Eric (27:38):
Okay.
But in general, it feels to me, andagain, please correct me if I'm wrong,
that the grantee perception report hashelped grantees and foundations understand
ways to align, ways to learn abouteach other, and that it has brought.
Organizations together, but this suggeststo me that we're about to see a rift.
(28:06):
We're about to startto see some distancing.
And given that you're conducting,I assume you're conducting grantee
perception reports every day.
Without naming any names, withouttelling anything out of school,
are you starting to see the gapwidening rather than tightening?
Elisha (28:26):
That's a great question, Eric, and actually one.
Oh, that'd be great for futureresearch because we have not looked
at the grantee perception report data,at least on our team in that way.
But I think it's a great pointand a great thing to look at.
I mean, I personally remain everhopeful that, that this data and
that what we're seeing in communitiesaround the country will help folks
(28:50):
really in 2026 hopefully rise to the.
To the moment of doing the thingsthat nonprofits need to be able
to serve those folks who they'reserving in communities everywhere.
So whether that's increasing payout orshifting grant requirements or talking
with boards in different kinds of waysto help them understand what's happening,
(29:11):
my hope is that those things will starthappening at a, at a faster pace than they
have been, and we'll see more change and.
To that end, one of the things thatwe're doing actually with this report is
we're releasing a two page supplement.
This just for boards.
It's a two page summary of the reportthat's called a board insert that that
(29:31):
we're hoping that funders can use toinsert in their board books as a helpful
tool for just level setting for folks.
This is the context in which we'recurrently operating, so if you have
questions about that, let's at leastall get on the same page about.
This is a current state.
There's increased demand, less funding.
Now what do we do?
So, and we're gonna be trying to thinkabout more resources like that this year
(29:55):
that just really try and help level dosome level setting for folks so then they
can get into a conversation about, okay,what actions do we now need to take?
Eric (30:02):
Now, a lot of these actions, to be fair, there are no.
Miracles here, the, the,and it's no secret either.
During COVID, we most certainly sawfoundations and other funders step up
with general support and reducing theirrequirements and things like making it
easier to give and get a grant, and yetit seems like these lessons either didn't
(30:25):
carry over or the sense of threat isn'tobtaining for, for many foundations.
Again, I don't wanna belabor this, butany sense of why they don't get that?
Elisha (30:42):
It's been interesting.
I mean, it's one of the, the things toothat we are, we're actually about to put
a survey out in the field in a few weeks.
Our state, our annual state nonprofitsreport, where we'll actually follow up
on some of these same questions againtoo, so we can track them over time.
Because I think we also have a,a similar question of, of why has
(31:05):
the response been so different?
And one of the things too that I, Ithink, you know, just in terms of the
total context that's really differentis during COVID, I, there was actually
a lot of federal funding being pouredinto nonprofit organizations with the.
Short term loans or the forgivable loans,and now there's the opposite, right?
(31:26):
There's funding being taken fromorganizations at the moment where
also because of other funding cuts,there's more need in communities,
whether that's to snap orhealthcare or other kinds of things.
And so there's just, it's a, it's areally, we are facing a lot of the
same challenges, but the response hasbeen, it, it just has looked different.
Eric (31:47):
And here's one more.
I hate to do this, but it's thesethings that I'm smacking myself
in the head to make sure that I'mstill alive and reading this stuff.
40% of nonprofit leaders say fundershave shifted priorities or requirements
in ways that are less helpful right now.
Kirk (32:02):
Too funny,
Eric (32:03):
like that one may be the, the cherry on top of this nasty
little cake of, of feedback fromgrantees about their foundations.
Any idea what, what that's about,where, where that's coming from
and what anyone can do about it.
Elisha (32:20):
Yeah.
Some of the, when we asked grantees andwhen we asked them profits in the study,
what were some of the things that hadbeen happening, you know, during this
moment, whether that was foundationsor other funders asking them to shift
the language on their websites or.
Actions that they've had to taketo mitigate risk, whether they were
(32:42):
being asked to or not, but theyhave had to change the language.
They use, shift programmaticwork, shift their communications.
And then when we ask funders some ofthose similar kinds of questions, we,
we see the the same kinds of things.
And so I think the interviewsprovide a lot more color around
(33:03):
some of the stories about how thisis happening, but it's definitely.
We definitely are seeingthese discrepancies here.
Eric (33:11):
All right, now here's the great big 99,000 whatever trillion
dollar question is philanthropy asit's currently designed, actually
built for moments like this.
Is our system kind of broken down?
Elisha (33:27):
That is the claimant.
Million dollar, a hundred milliondollar the the big question.
And my reaction is when we interviewednonprofit leaders and foundation
leaders around the country, one ofthe things that even in the midst of
all the challenges folks were facing,there is such a spirit of resilience
(33:51):
and people doing really creative thingsthat your overall would never have
even thought of that as a solution.
And so I think the solutions are there.
That the individuals working inphilanthropy and in all kinds of
nonprofits, they are doing thework in communities every day, that
that could be possible solutions.
(34:12):
And I think some of it isjust around, it's not like.
Really, is it the right structure or not?
But are we really activating in theway that we need to in this moment?
Eric (34:21):
Well, th thanks for for bringing it into the positive 'cause.
I was actually going to go there, believeit or not, even though I sound like
one of those muppets up in the balcony.
What are three or four things thatyou would encourage foundations and
maybe their grantees to do right nowor to think about right now that can
(34:42):
help us through this, this moment?
Elisha (34:46):
Well, one big one, and I think the data definitely points to this, is
just communication is always important.
But it is more important than evernow, and I don't mean like the, let's
do a check in call, but no, what'sactually happening in the community?
How is, you know, the nonprofitusually work with that provides food.
(35:06):
How has their clientele shifted?
What is happening in that communityand what are people who are being
served by that organization sayingthey need, like really having a
deep understanding of that I thinkis more important than ever is one.
I think two is getting really creativeabout funding strategies and having
courage and being willing to take risks.
(35:26):
And I don't, you know, when, whenI say risk, I mean risk in terms of
being creative with different sortsof legal strategies or financing
strategies or whatever that may be.
Because I think the real risk isto communities and individuals who
may not get the services that theyneed, like that's actually the
highest risk and centering that.
(35:47):
In decision making.
I think it's super important.
And so I think both of those thingsare, are gonna be really key in
terms of moving forward in some moreproductive ways than we currently are.
Eric (35:59):
Well, your work has shined a really important light.
On what's happening.
I've always said that statistics and,and research, survey, research like this,
it, it puts a number on the zeitgeist.
I think we all had a sense thatthere's a disconnect, but being able
to actually articulate it in this wayis a phenomenal service to the field,
(36:20):
and it validates the sensibilities thatyou get just from talking to people.
I think that's one of the real.
Gifts that CEP has been ableto provide over the years.
Phenomenal tool and, and aresource for foundations, but also
it gives the grantees a chanceto communicate in a safer way.
(36:41):
So thank you so much for your work.
Thank you for thisincredibly valuable report.
I do hope that we have theopportunity to make sure that.
All the foundation folks and their granteeand their, their trustees and their board
members read this and take it in andunderstand that they cannot be effective
if their grantees are not effective.
(37:02):
That we are absolutelyall in this together.
And I, I thank you for your work,congratulate you on, on this amazing
thing that you're able to do, andAlicia Smith, aka you're amazing.
Thank you.
Elisha (37:17):
Thanks so much Eric, and thanks so much for having me.
It's been great talking with you today.
Eric (37:21):
Well, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you again.
Kirk (37:26):
And we're back.
Okay.
Okay, so I think,
Eric (37:28):
can you believe what you just heard?
Can you believe,
Kirk (37:37):
try to read you, Ann,
Eric (37:38):
what
Kirk (37:39):
dentist.
So here, here's my, here's my questionabout, because, because I'm trying
to create a little space, a littlecompassion, a little empathy for what's
going on, that there's something verypowerful that's been under here difficult.
But here, here's my honest question.
Do we actually know what ishappening right now and why it's
(38:02):
happening and how it's happening?
Please be more specific.
I don't wanna be because that I,because that, well then the answer is
Eric (38:10):
no.
Kirk (38:11):
So, so, because I totally agree.
I don't think we know what's happening.
I don't think we know why it's happening.
I don't think we know how it's happening.
I don't think we even know what it is.
So I just wanna make that pitchas we, it's, as we roll up our
sleeves and go get into this.
So there's a hidden context forthis conversation, which is, well,
(38:32):
somebody somewhere should knowthe answer to those questions.
What's happening, why it'shappening, how it's happening.
The answer should bedouble down on your giving.
So all these nonprofits that are bringingthe brunt of trying to soften the
globe, this whole thing that's goingon, those dollars should be available.
And, and I guess I just wannasay I, I get that critique.
I think I share the critique and yet thispiece of, that we don't actually know,
(38:55):
even though it's opening all around us,and to us and in us every single day, the
fact that we actually don't know what'shappening, why or how it's happening.
Maybe as part of the reason that it's sohard, even if you're sitting on a massive
endowment to mobilize resources because.
What does even a good response look like?
So that, that's the one just empathetic,sympathetic thing I wanted to say.
(39:17):
Eric Brown, you've got the floor.
Eric (39:18):
Well, the, the Center for Effective Philanthropy is helping
us understand what's happening.
Kirk (39:24):
Yeah.
Eric (39:24):
They're asking the grantees, how you doing?
And the answer is, we're not doing good.
And they're saying,well, what's the problem?
Like?
And the answer is, wedon't have enough money.
We don't have enough support from our, ourfunders, we don't have enough, whatever
you wanna call it, capacity building.
We don't have anything.
And we, the money's not flexible enough.
They're requiring too manyconditions, all that stuff.
(39:47):
The answer is give us more money sothat we can deal with these crises
and we know what the crises are.
Federal funding is being cut.
People are getting into our businessand trying to legislate on on things
like diversity and stuff like that.
All of that stuff.
We know that, and we have this way oflearning about what grantees need, and
(40:08):
then you ask the grantees, do your.
Do your funders understandyour challenges?
Like half of them say yes.
Yes, the foundations.
Do you understand yourgrantees challenges?
All of them say yes.
This is like he said, shesaid, man of them are whatever
foundations are from Mar and.
(40:29):
Nonprofits or is like, this is a totaldisconnect and how can this possibly be?
And then, I mean, you know, when youhave the 20% of foundations that say
that actually, uh, funders don't reallyneed to help their grantees succeed.
So what's the point?
Why are you in business?
(40:49):
So this disconnect is astonishing to me.
So I will grant you that like.
I would say 50% of the grantees seem tothink that 50% of their funders are 50%.
Okay.
Or some like version of that.
So there are good funders out there.
They wanna do better.
They're putting more money out, theyare understanding the risks and all that
(41:10):
other stuff, but there is a big swath ofthem out there who don't seem to get it.
Kirk (41:17):
Mm-hmm.
So I, I think.
We're here.
I don't think I've ever seenyou completely beside yourself.
Eric (41:23):
This, or if there was video, there would be two of me.
I would be me and I would bethe one that's beside myself.
Kirk (41:30):
Be, and, and again, I, I try, I, because you get to
occupy that, I'm so angry space.
I get to try to occupy theepi empathy, empathetic space.
But can I tell you, I think thisis even worse than what's here.
Eric (41:40):
Oh, good.
Kirk (41:40):
Because, uh, it, I'm not gonna name names, but at least in the world
that I'm within and some of the workthat we see and stuff, it actually
gets even worse than literally
Eric (41:48):
don't name names.
And by the way,
Kirk (41:49):
yeah,
Eric (41:50):
I saved your job.
I edited out this terrible thingyou said a couple of episodes ago.
You're welcome.
You save me
Kirk (41:58):
regularly, you
Eric (41:59):
save, get everything
Kirk (42:00):
I'm doing.
The cutting, the cutting roomfloor will be under Earth and
that will never work again.
But you'll be living under
Eric (42:06):
a rock.
Kirk (42:06):
But I think this gets even worse because I think, you know,
this conversation is about thefoundations that are staying in days.
There's a whole other set of, of, offoundations that have said, oh, things
are so bad to the United States, we'rejust not gonna work there anymore.
And it's like.
Wait a minute.
That's your answer.
Your answer to this moment is, andfrom a foundation of logic model
(42:27):
pinpoint, it makes perfect sense.
'cause it's like, well,we've got limited resources.
We're gonna invest dollars wherewe can get big outside gains.
You know, the issues we work on haveglobal relevance anyway, so let's,
let's attack these battles wherethey were able to get, and I. That
thinking is part of what's created thisinevitable black hole of Atri business.
(42:48):
Trying to pull all this down.
The say so it gets even worse, Ithink, than what the Center for
Effective Philanthropy is actually a
Eric (42:53):
to.
Yeah, you're right.
And I just to put a finer point onsome of these statistics, 40% of
non-profit leaders say that fundershave shifted priorities or requirements
in ways that are less helpful.
Right now, 40% say thatfunders are shifting.
Money in ways that are less helpful.
So if they just did everythingthe same, that's better.
(43:18):
And then, and that, that 20% statisticas, and I pulled it back up again.
20% of foundations say they don't believefoundations have much responsibility to
help nonprofits navigate this moment.
Well, what are they in business for?
It's, it's again, ah, okay.
That's my answer.
Kirk (43:37):
This moment that we're in.
Makes no sense.
So here, here's the question.
'cause I thought it was sointeresting, this question of risk.
69% of foundations say they take risks.
30% of nonprofits sayfoundations take risks, right?
So like, like if you're in thefoundation sheet, you're like, oh.
You're like, oh no, we take risks.
Well, here's my my question.
In a world that makes no sense, andyou're sitting on top of a multi-billion
(44:02):
dollar endowment or endowment of anysize, and you're trying to make decisions
to navigate a world that makes no sense.
What did you rightfully view?
Any proactive decision that you madein this time is actually an enormous
risk because you have no idea whatthreats are coming coming at you.
So this notion of there's this deepconservatism to kind of protect something
(44:22):
from being completely eradicated, Ican kind of empathize with from the
standpoint that as the nonprofit,yes, you're broke, you need resources.
As the funder, you've got tons ofresources, but you don't want, in
this world that doesn't make sense.
Somebody to show by the blue and gowhack-a-mole with your capacity to try
to help make the world a better place.
Eric (44:40):
Yes, but in the, in the words of the immortal Don Draper,
that's what the money's for.
That's what the money's for.
It is to deal with terrible,crazy, nutty situations.
I mean, ostensibly philanthropyis there to deal with crazy
things to make them better.
And it, you know, again, this isthe, almost the levy breaking idea.
(45:05):
Let's just say FEMA doesn't do his job.
The levees break, and we're flooding.
So geez, throw your hands upand say, that's not my problem.
No, you fix the problem anyway.
And I think these very large foundationscan be a bulwark against the craziness.
They can help provide some gravity andsome stability and some sense, and help
(45:25):
these organizations make it to the next.
Administration, make it tothe next thing, push back.
I mean, that's what they're there for.
They're there for crisis as well asbuilding for the future and all those
other things, but you cannot buildfor a future that may not exist.
Yeah.
You have to defend against thethings that are the biggest threats
if these organizations go out ofbusiness because the funders say,
(45:46):
oh, we live in this crazy world.
They will not be here when we need them.
And that is just a fact.
Kirk (45:54):
It made me wondered how much of what might be happening within
philanthropy at scale has to do withthe notion that we're all rightfully
committed to systems level change.
So, you know, I don't wanna fix one levee.
I wanna create the rule thatgets every, every levee fixed
and creates massive resources.
'cause I don't havethe dollars to do that.
(46:15):
And, and again, in this world where thesystem, what our conception of even the
system is, is being completely upended.
I wonder again, if that's alsopartly what freezes the response.
'cause it feels like that's all you'redoing is, is trying to put fingers
in dikes and you're like, well, thatwhole dike is coming down anyway.
Maybe, maybe I can't actually, I can'tactually make the changes that, that
(46:36):
with, I could just push all my moneyto the center of the table and it's
all gonna be as bad or worse anyway.
So, so what?
What's the point of it?
Eric (46:43):
Well, if everybody drowns in the flood, then creating the
system to build better leveeswill be too little, too late.
Kirk (46:52):
You've mentioned in the past, you know, somebody said we should
be working on project 2029 orwhatever the right number would be.
So this is the only thing,'cause again this, this question
of like, what's happening?
How's it happening?
Why is it happening?
It's so fundamental.
Our world is being so upended,it's being so tipped over.
Do you believe that there'sa game plan somewhere?
(47:12):
That some party of peoplehad been part parties to?
That anticipated what iscoming and then said, here's a
game plan for how to respond.
Because that's the other thing that I,I pick up from this conversation is that
all of our partners in philanthropy,let alone our partners in profits,
everyone's kind of like kind of tryingto deal with this in, in the context
of their own perception of reality.
(47:34):
Is there, and I'm sure it's happeningat the, at the field level organizing
where there's a hundred foundationscoming together saying like, Hey, here's
systematically what we're happeningof seeing happen across the field.
Here's how we can pancakeand leverage our resources.
Don't you think that'shappening somewhere?
And is, but yet is the net some of thatbeing Yes, but we're still not seeing
enough or dollars coming to the field?
Eric (47:52):
God, I hope so.
Kirk (47:54):
Yeah.
Eric (47:54):
I, I really, really hope so.
But, but if you think about it,the answers on the foundation side.
To these questions in this surveysuggest to you that it is not happening?
Kirk (48:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric (48:09):
Because it suggests to you that foundations do not understand
the gravity of the situation.
Kirk (48:15):
Yeah.
Eric (48:15):
Or they understand and this is even worse.
They understand it and they don't care.
Kirk (48:20):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (48:20):
Or not enough of them care.
Kirk (48:22):
Mm.
Eric (48:23):
And and both of those things are very, very troubling.
Totally.
But if they said, yes, there's a problem,we all need to be a part of the solution.
Our grantees are essential parts of that.
If they are not effective,then we are not effective.
If you had that coming outof this survey saying mm-hmm.
We are all together on this, we haven'tarticulated what the plan is specifically,
(48:43):
or even if we have, we're not gonna tellyou because we don't wanna show our cards.
That would be different, but by.
This reading, this is such acanary in the coal mine report.
Kirk (48:55):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (48:56):
Anyone within the sound of our voice needs to read it.
If you work at a foundation ora nonprofit, you need to know
either what you're up againstor what you're up against.
Because this really does signalto me that there's this phenomenal
disconnect happening betweenfoundations and nonprofits that
appeared to have been narrowing
Kirk (49:18):
mm-hmm.
Eric (49:18):
For a while, but.
And I, and I asked, I asked Alicia thisquestion at the very end, which is,
does philanthropy even work anymore?
Is the model broken?
Does it not do what?
Ostensibly, I think we had all hopedthat philanthropy was supposed to do,
(49:38):
which is come up with good ideas, buildfor the future, help change systems,
and be responsive to the needs of thefolks that they hope to be able to serve.
And I can't say with totalconfidence, I can't say with, with
minimal confidence right now thatphilanthropy is meeting this moment.
Some of them are for sure.
(49:58):
Mackenzie, Scott, God bless her.
Some of the big foundations have beenstepping up and some of them haven't.
And the question is for thosewho haven't, is it really because
they think there's no problem?
Kirk (50:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric (50:09):
Is they think this is an overblown crisis?
Yeah.
And someone said, actually,is this really a crisis?
Is it that different from COVID?
Oh, what?
Like COVID was nothing.
COVID was a big thing.
Kirk (50:20):
Well, actually the disconnect with COVID I thought was so interesting the
way you guys were talking about that,because, you know, COVID, the nonprofit
sector emerges as what an incrediblechannel of resources to help provide
basic needs and services as a time whengovernments were being overt, strapped.
So there was a financial influxto support all these nonprofits
providing basic services.
(50:41):
You know, and so that right, the up theupside down, what would now is that now
those dollars, at least from a federalstandpoint, are being pulled back.
They're being pulled back in so manydifferent areas because this notion
that there's gonna be some kind ofsupport mechanism required to navigate
the world that we're in, that notionitself is, is completely under threat.
So, so I keep going back to thisquestion like we're saying, is
(51:01):
philanthropy built for moments like this?
Well, what is the moment?
And I think that's part of the problemhere, is that the moment is being
inadequately you could find for all of us.
Eric (51:10):
Okay.
So there's a, a couple of otherlayers to this thing and, and I
don't have all the answers, but, uh.
On the one hand, Alicia talksa lot about the kind of the
service providing organizations.
Kirk (51:21):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Eric (51:22):
Right.
Uh, so these are folks whoare, you know, pick your thing.
They're dealing with hunger, they'redealing with health crises in communities.
They're services.
She doesn't talk a lot about.
The strategic, the long term,the climate change, the other
stuff, democracy, you name it.
Kirk (51:41):
Right.
Eric (51:41):
And, and I'd be curious to know whether there was much of a
statistical difference in the responsesof grantees based on whether they are
providing day-to-day or responsiveservices, or, I have the same
Kirk (51:53):
question,
Eric (51:54):
long-term strategic organizations.
Yeah, that is a question I willask them and I hope that we have
that conversation in the future.
My hypothesis is that the differencesare probably not as stark as you would
think, but I'm curious about that.
Mm-hmm.
So it, it, that, that isa part of the question.
I would, I would dial backmy criticism by, nah, 21%.
(52:16):
If, if I find out that there is, uh,a, a big difference between the service
providing organizations who say that theirfunders don't understand them and the
other long term strategic ones, however.
You are a funder and you are inthe service providing business.
Let's just say you're a communityfunder or whatever you're dealing
with homelessness or housing orhealth or that kind of thing, and your
(52:39):
grantees say that you don't get them.
Well, that's a problem too.
Like it's almost like youcannot win in this one.
This disconnect is, is so profoundthat it must suggest that there is
some kind of fundamental lack ofunderstanding between Yeah, these.
These two sets of institutions.
Kirk (52:59):
No, I think that's a great point.
And I had the samequestion in my mind too.
It's like, yeah, how much of this isbeing felt by the service providers versus
like the sort of what you would maybecall the strategic philanthropy part of,
you know, big strategy plays it go on.
And I did think that conversation youguys had about the grantee perception
reports and you know, do we see this riftbetween sort of haves versus have nots?
So I think it sounds like Center forEffect philanthropy might pick that up
(53:22):
and do a little bit more work with that.
So this, this gets me back tothat, you know, do, do we know
what's happening in why and how.
So what I, what I hope happens isthat very soon somebody will come
forward and say, well, actually, here'sour critical unflinching, sober and
transparent assessment for actually what'shappening, why it, how it's happening.
I believe that that story wouldchallenge us very deeply in terms
(53:43):
of our understanding of how thisworld has been working for a while.
That could unlock two things.
It could create a different strategyfor the strategic philanthropy folks
to say, oh, actually this is thegame we need to be playing in, so
let's invest in all the things thatwe think can make change as far as
our understanding of what's going on.
And then it will create morespace for the service provider
philanthropists to say, oh, I get it.
(54:04):
There's a five year X year numberof year arc here where we need
to double down because this basicservice need is not being met.
So here's the gap we can fill.
And I think that until you haveclarity about those two things.
It's hard for philanthropy to movebecause again, if I, if I just try to
put myself inside the room of, I'vegot billions of dollars around me
that I dunno what to do, I actuallyfeel like I'm at a high risk space.
(54:27):
I actually feel like I'm actuallydoing everything that I can do.
And until you can, using in anevidence-based way, show me how many
dollars get me from here to there.
Like actually show me how Ican get through this moment.
I'm probably gonna feel like doing less,even though I feel like the little bit I'm
doing, I feel like is more than enough.
And then, but that's my own.
I don't know if that's right or wrong,what I just said, but that, that's
what I, that's what I feel like iswhat's needed in this moment that
(54:48):
we're in whatever that moment is.
Eric (54:50):
I, I, I don't, I don't think that's bad, but the evidence thing, uh, almost
always happens retrospectively, andwe can't operate like that right now.
Kirk (54:58):
Yeah, fair.
Eric (54:59):
Very fair.
You have to kind of do all theabove, which is you have to.
You have to make sure thatyour grantees survive.
You have to make sure that they'reable to meet the basic needs of their
constituents, however you define them.
Kirk (55:09):
Yeah,
Eric (55:09):
and, and then you have to go back and look and see what happened.
Because these things happen.
They run in cycles.
We will have another crisis moment where.
Foundations can do a ton to step in andmake things better in the short term.
And yes, they may have to spendmore than they had hoped instead
of going out of business at never,they'll go outta business in
(55:32):
150 years because they're, yeah.
You know, or whatever.
So the, those are the kinds ofthings that I think we need to do.
I agree that we need to do alot more thinking, a lot more.
Analysis a lot more of this typeof work that Center for Effective
Philanthropy does, which is bothquantitative and qualitative.
Kirk (55:52):
Yeah.
Eric (55:53):
So that we better understand what folks need.
If you are in the business to makechange, then make change and, and
that's the most important thing of all.
And this suggests to me thatsomething is not working and we
have to figure out what that is, orwe should just blow up the system.
Kirk (56:13):
Can we just say a big thank you to the Center for Effective Philanthropy
for being willing to do this work?
The fact that there's a report hereat all is only possible because
they have so much credibility andtrust in the field that they can
ask questions that people respond.
You know, so there's a quantitative part.
They did certain work.
There's a qualitative part.
They did interviews.
That means that people picked upthe phone, you know, they were, they
(56:35):
were off record, but they were able,they were willing to speak honestly.
This kind of introspection,self-reflection, transparency.
This is what's absolutelycrucial for making the field
work and work more effectively.
And so, you know, Ellie, Sierra, granterChristina in, you know, um, Alicia, AKA
Eric (56:54):
Christina.
Kirk (56:54):
Sorry,
Eric (56:55):
sorry, Christina.
Kirk (56:55):
Sorry, Christina.
M sorry, Christina.
You know that TEG deciding to do thiswork at this time, it's so crucially
important, and we're grateful.
We're grateful that you are givingus this insight into what's going
on, and the next phase of thiscouldn't happen quickly enough.
Right?
The next phase of this where theanswer to how do we deal with this?
We need that.
(57:17):
A year ago, years, a couple.
No, we need it urgently.
Right.
Eric (57:22):
Also, to be fair, and I hear those of you out there about to
make this point that, you know, thiswasn't funded by fairy godparents,
it was funded by philanthropy.
And like I said, philanthropyhas been my career in my life
for the last 20 something years.
I totally understand the organizationsthat are working hard to do the right
thing, and we need more of them and thatwe, we need them to be doing more of it.
(57:43):
And that's what this is all about.
It would be a boring conversationif we didn't care about both
of these types of institutions.
So I, I, I wanna make that clear.
I'm not just Yeah, you know, screamingat all philanthropy in the abstract, but
in the specific, we need to do better.
We need to figure this out.
For those out there who reallywanna do this, this is the type of
(58:05):
report that you need to spend a lotof time with to ask and answer the
question, what role am I playing?
In, in helping to improve this situation,what can I do to make these things better?
And that's what this is here for.
Yes, I am to, I'm reallygrateful, so grateful Center
for Effective Philanthropy.
(58:25):
I've, I've, I love thisorganization for a really long time.
And, and this is exactly thekind of work that they do so
well, that helps us all improve.
Kirk (58:35):
So the report is a second crisis at US nonprofits and
foundations are responding to threats.
Alicia Smith Arga and her team at theCenter for Effective Philanthropy.
You can find it on their website in Eric.
Great conversation.
Alicia.
Thank you for coming and let'shear it and there will be more.
We'll be back with more.
Thank you all for doing this with us.
Eric (58:55):
Okay everybody.
That's it for this episode.
Please let us know if you haveany thoughts about what you heard
today or people we should haveon this show, and that definitely
Kirk (59:03):
includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.
Eric (59:09):
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,
Kirk (59:12):
and please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, today's students
tomorrow's talent, and you canfind that@luminafoundation.org.
Eric (59:20):
We certainly thank today's guest, and of course, all of you,
Kirk (59:22):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.
Eric (59:26):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Kirk (59:28):
Okay, everybody, till next time.
Welcome to, let's Hear It.
Eric (00:01):
Let's Hear.
It is a podcast for and about thefield of foundation and nonprofit
communications produced by its twoco-hosts, Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
No relation.
Kirk (00:12):
Well said Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
Eric (00:14):
And I'm Eric.
Let's hear.
It is sponsored by the Kenneth RaininFoundation, which enhances quality
of life by championing the arts.
Promoting Early childhood literacy andsupporting research to cure chronic
disease online@krfoundation.org.
We are also sponsored by the PrevisFoundation, a foundation creating
an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:35):
Check out their amazingly good podcasts.
Stop and talk.
Hosted by Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them at stopand talk podcast.com.
Kirk (00:43):
You can find, let's hear it on any podcast subscription platform.
Eric (00:46):
You can find us online at, let's hear@cast.com.
Kirk (00:49):
And if you'd like the show, please, please, please rate us on
Elisha (00:53):
Apple Podcasts so that more people can find us.
Kirk (00:55):
Let's get onto the show.
Are we doing this?
We're do this.
Oh man, this is started.
We're, I had
Eric (01:01):
no idea.
Kirk (01:02):
So can we stop for a second and say Happy New Year, even though
it's gonna be well into the yearin this and, and I think this is a
whole new season for, let's hear it.
Eric (01:09):
Well, actually our Kristin Graham episode was the first episode of the year.
Kirk (01:14):
Yeah.
But then did we pause and say, welcometo our brand new season, celebr.
Eric (01:19):
No, we didn't
Kirk (01:20):
celebrate.
Celebrate new high fives.
See, 'cause this is just becoming.
This is an old hat.
It's
Eric (01:25):
like, it's, you know, it's, it's just a continuous season.
A continuous 140 episodeseason or whatever it is.
Kirk (01:32):
No celebration, no pause, no reflection, no thank
Eric (01:35):
yous.
You
Kirk (01:35):
know,
we're
Eric (01:35):
too busy to celebrate.
Kirk (01:39):
I don't think we should lose the newness though.
I don't think we should.
I can't believe we pulled Thes.
This was the best ideaof your entire life.
Was doing this podcastfor all these years.
Was,
Eric (01:47):
this was your stupid idea and it continues to be a labor of hate.
Happy New Year.
Well, once removed,
Kirk (01:55):
you're welcome to our labor of hate.
So Doctor Alicia Smith, Arga for theCenter for Effect and Philanthropy.
Thank you for coming up.
Let's hear.
I know what's ahead is a littlebit of a bummer conversation.
I just give just alittle bit of a hat tip.
But I think this is so importantthat we're talking about this, that
(02:17):
I feel like that our next coupleconversations are actually a very
nice sequence of what's ahead.
But will you please set up thisconversation because I, this is so
critical and, and I don't know if we'rejust lucking out that this is landing
where it's landing in the calendar,but this is absolutely what we should
be starting the year talking about.
And I know Oregon, there'sgonna be a lot more conversation
(02:37):
about these topics going ahead.
So.
Set up what we're about to listento here because it's, it's sobering.
I'll be honest.
It's sobering, but, but it's, it'sreally important that we're doing this.
I'm really glad that youguys had this conversation.
Eric (02:50):
I, I guess I would say if you are participating in Dry January,
this sobering conversation with AliciaSmith, Ariaga of the Center for Effective
Philanthropy comes at a perfect time.
Not only that, but I believethat this episode will drop.
By the time you hear this episode,you're almost ready to drink again in
(03:12):
February, which I will also recommend.
So I spoke with Alicia, who'san old colleague of mine
from the Hewlett Foundation.
She's now vice president at the Centerfor Effective Philanthropy, and they.
Have just put out this reportcalled A Sector in Crisis.
Mm-hmm.
How US nonprofits and foundationsare responding to threats.
(03:33):
And what it really should say ishow US nonprofits are attempting
to respond to threats and howfoundations are thwarting them.
And I'm, you know, I know thatsounds like a, a rash statement,
but this report reveals thatfoundations are falling short of their
responsibility to serve nonprofitsand the people that they support.
(03:55):
Full stop.
And as I say in my conversationwith Alicia, some of, I used
to work in a, a foundation.
Some of my best friends are foundations,but this report reveals that we have
a big, big problem in philanthropy.
Now, one more thing, kindof a little listening.
A listening guide or alistening assistance.
(04:16):
As you listen to this episode, uh, wecontinue to talk about the so-called
current context, but when everytime either one of us says current
context, I would like you in yourmind to replace the phrase shit show.
And that's all I will say.
Kirk (04:37):
I'm glad we can laugh because there's not a lot to be laughing about.
And I'm also love this discussion becauseit's a real time, time capsule in how
a bunch of super smart people thathave wide capacity to reflect on and
and understand the world around them.
Makes sense of a moment that franklydoesn't make sense to any of us.
And I have to say, for theCenter for Electric Philanthropy,
(04:57):
we're so grateful that Dr. Argaand her team can do this work.
And also, let's, let's call outthe co-authors for this report.
So the reports that sector ofcrisis, nonprofits, and foundations
are responding to threats.
So Sierra Granter Yep.
As a co-author, Ellie Bto Yep.
Is a, a co-author and ChristinaInn, along with the Dr. Alicia.
So this is sobering.
(05:19):
It's important.
There's a lot to, todigest and think through.
But, but that was the thing thatstruck me as you were talking about
this, Eric, is that this notion ofthreats and context and pressure, this
is a really historically difficulttime to be in this field trying to
operate in any way that makes sense.
And again, massive thanks to the Centerfor Effective Philanthropy, this team
(05:42):
and all of your work to try to helpmake sense out of a period of time that
frankly doesn't make sense to any of us.
So.
So, go ahead, Eric.
Eric (05:49):
Yeah.
The, the one thing that I'll say isthat for folks who, uh, just have a
tendency to listen to the interview andthen turn it off, and I'm sure, yeah.
You know, you know who you are out there.
Kirk (05:58):
Yeah.
Eric (05:58):
I would recommend that you hang around for my conversation with you
or your conversation with me, what Ilovingly refer to as the blah blah,
because the top of my head is coming off.
Kirk (06:11):
So this is, uh, Dr. Spent.
For the Center for Effective Philanthropy.
Let's hear it.
We'll listen and we'll come back.
Eric (06:19):
Friends, listeners, people, we have a problem.
Nonprofits are facing record demandfor their services right now,
and I don't need to tell you why.
And this demand is higher than it wasduring COVID, and at the same time, many
of them are losing funding and now notjust from government, from philanthropy.
(06:41):
A new report calls thismoment an existential crisis,
but here's the disconnect.
Foundations, by and large,don't see this moment as an
existential threat to themselves.
They recognize the pressureon nonprofits, but they don't
feel the same kind of pressure.
So what is going on here Today, I amtalking with Alicia Smith Ariaga co-author
of a new report from the Center forEffective Philanthropy that digs into
(07:04):
who's stepping up, who's hesitating,and why the gap between foundations and
nonprofits feels uncomfortably wide.
Alicia, thank you so muchfor coming on the show.
Elisha (07:15):
Thanks so much for having me, Eric.
Excited to be here today.
Eric (07:18):
I can't wait to talk about this report that you folks did.
Now, I should also mention that youare a co-author with Ellie Buto, Sierra
Gr Hoffer, and Christina M over atthe Center for Effective Philanthropy.
So I wanna give them credit as well.
Elisha (07:34):
Yes.
Eric (07:35):
First of all, how you doing?
It's been a while.
Elisha (07:38):
I'm doing well.
It's nice to see you,Eric, after some time
Eric (07:42):
sometime we, that might be measured in decades, but yes, we used
to work together at Hewlett a whileago, and I'm glad to see that you
are on the phenomenal rocket ride.
As in the ascension in philanthropy,while I make my long slow,
uh, what would we call it?
Dignified, it's not so dignified.
Decline.
So congratulations.
(08:04):
I was also told to be nice tothe people you meet on the way
up because you're gonna meet thesame people on the way back down.
And I can prove that listenersto this show may know a thing
or two about the center for.
Effective philanthropy.
We've had some of your colleagues on it.
We've also had the, the great and goodPhil Buchanan, the CEO on the show.
I consider it the premier researchinstitution studying philanthropy.
(08:27):
Of course.
What do I know?
But let me, let's talk a littlebit about your work at, at the
Center for Effective Philanthropy.
What do you focus on?
Elisha (08:34):
So my team at the Center for Effective Philanthropy has
the great privilege of doingindependent research on the sector.
We produce anywhere from four toseven reports a year that are publicly
available on everything from topics like.
McKenzie Scott's Giving and theorganizations who received those
grants to a regular annual report onthe state of nonprofits to also, in
(09:00):
this moment, we've been doing a lotof work looking at the current context
and how this political moment hasimpacted nonprofits and foundations.
Eric (09:09):
I, I like that you have, you coined this term, or you decided to
use this concept, the current context.
When, when referring to the insanitythat is happening out of Washington, the
threat that foundations and nonprofitsare under, uh, it's almost quaint
that we're talking about is a currentcontext, but what, what is underneath
(09:30):
that, that phrase is the crazy show.
Do I have is, is that fair enough?
Elisha (09:36):
Yes, it is fair.
In fact, in the s when we, the datawe'll get into later, when we talk
about the survey and the interviews,the way we define the current context
to respondents is a series of executiveorders, other legal actions that
have taken place since January, 2025that have specifically targeted the
nonprofit and philanthropic sectors.
Eric (09:57):
Right?
Yeah.
So, no, no.
No surprise what the current context is.
Yeah, it's, it's a nice, gentle way oftalking about it, but I, I, I get it.
I, and I don't, I don't disagree.
It might as well not go crazy here.
Alright, so let, let'sget into the report.
What were you hoping to learn whenyou, when you conducted this research?
Elisha (10:15):
We had a couple of big questions and main ones were really how are
nonprofits experiencing this moment?
Both the staff atorganizations, the fiscal.
Impacts, given that we knew there were alot of government funding cuts happening.
And then how were nonprofitsperceiving the reaction of foundations.
And then for foundations, we'rewondering how are foundations responding?
(10:37):
Are they thinking aboutchanging their grant making?
How are they working with their boards?
And so some of those are someof the questions that we dug
into as part of this research.
Eric (10:46):
And let's just get into the findings.
What were the headlines?
Elisha (10:51):
Well, there were a couple of big headlines.
First is that nonprofit leaderswho we surveyed overwhelmingly,
and it was a representative sampleof nonprofits across the US and
nonprofits that received foundationfunding were those in the sample.
And they unequivocally see this as amoment of threat, a really existential
(11:11):
threat to their organizationsand the communities they serve.
And the reason for that is because,similar to what you said in the beginning
of our time together, there's anincreased demand for their services.
At the same time, there have beensignificant cuts to their funding.
Eric (11:26):
And I also wanna get at a little, I want to get too wonky about statistics.
This is a representative, yousaid is a representative sample.
So representative sampleof nonprofit organizations.
And to be clear, are you excluded?
Certain religious organizationsand certain health organizations,
I'm assuming because they mighthave viewed the data relative to
(11:47):
the social serving organizations.
Do I?
Is that a A generally fair,
Elisha (11:52):
yeah.
Eric (11:52):
Assessment.
Elisha (11:53):
Yeah.
That is a fair assessment.
That is correct.
Yes.
Eric (11:56):
And you did a representative sample of all foundations that
made more than a couple milliondollars a year worth of grants.
Elisha (12:02):
That's right.
All foundations that do morethan $5 million in grant making.
Were surveyed across the US
Eric (12:10):
and since you folks over there at CEP are extremely good
statisticians, I, I have confidencethat these, that these responses are
representative and I assume you do too.
Correct?
Elisha (12:22):
That is correct, yes.
It's one of the thingsthat we proud ourselves on,
Eric (12:25):
so I'm just stipulating for the audience Yeah.
That this stuff is not made up.
It's not, you didn't putyour hand on the scale.
You didn't decide who to talkto and who not to talk to.
Elisha (12:35):
Exactly.
Eric (12:35):
This is, this is true.
People, if you're listening, it's true.
Don't, don't scream about the research.
And people often go into the, oh, Idon't the methodology, so therefore
I'm not gonna listen to what you said.
So I, I would say just listen to whatwe, we have to say here and believe it.
Okay?
Elisha (12:50):
Yes.
Eric (12:50):
Let, let's, let's start.
I have so many questions for you,and the top of my head is coming
off, but I'm gonna do my best tokeep my, my act together here.
Let me see if I got this right.
You, you say that nonprofits are facingrecord demand so higher than COVID.
This is Defcon, whatever.
And yet a significant share of therespondents reported that they're
(13:13):
getting reduced foundation funding.
Am I on, did I read that right?
Are are foundations actuallypulling back at this moment,
or is am I missing something?
Elisha (13:22):
So you're right Eric.
I mean, what, what our data show thatwe gathered from nonprofits is that 56%.
Either have experienced somereduction in funding or anticipate
experiencing some reduction infunding from federal government.
But then if we look at their foundationfunding, 60%, 61% actually have either
(13:48):
already experienced a reduction infunding from their funders or their
anticipating some reduction in funding.
So that's 61% of nonprofits reportedthat in the when we reached in this data.
Eric (14:00):
Wow.
Okay.
That's really bad thing numberone, there's a greater need.
Yes.
And for whatever reason, foundationsare not delivering to support that need.
Elisha (14:12):
That's right.
Yeah.
Eric (14:14):
Okay.
Now, the other side, so youobviously you talk to foundations.
Foundations are telling you thatthey're not nearly as affected by the
current context as their grantees and.
If I have this, about half thefoundations say the current context
has made it harder to achieve theirgoals, and the other half don't.
(14:34):
So half of the foundations out thereis, eh, not so bad what's going on.
There are, is this a specific set offoundations that you can read into?
Oh, I understand why they say that.
Or do we just have thisreally weird problem?
Elisha (14:50):
Really, it seems what we see in the data is that there really
mixed reactions on the side of.
Funders.
So just like you said, the data showsthat there's some percent of folks who are
saying, Hey, we're not able to do the workthat we normally do to achieve our goals.
And then there's another groupthat say, actually we are,
(15:13):
we're not experiencing that.
I mean, what we do.
No, is that 80% of 81%, actually,of foundation leaders who we
interviewed, they really were clearthat foundations have a significant
role to play in supporting nonprofits.
But then when we look at the data,that's where it becomes really
ambiguous about how much that's actuallyhappening on the ground right now.
Eric (15:35):
S So if you're a foundation and you're in the business of supporting
nonprofits to achieve your goals.
And your own nonprofits, your grantees aresaying they're in a world of hurt, and yet
you say, eh, you know, we're doing okay.
How does that, how does that even connect?
I, I, I'm having a really hard timeunderstanding how it, I foundation look.
(15:56):
I used to work for, for a foundationyou used to work for Found.
I love foundations.
Some of my best friends are foundations.
But if we're going to generalizearound the, this institution,
how can they possibly say that?
If their grantees are doing worse andthey are in greater need, and they are
not meeting that need, that they're doingokay, or is it just that they, they don't
(16:19):
understand their own grantees perceptions?
Elisha (16:22):
Well, I think that's a big part of what's happening.
One of the things that we did whenwe gathered the data was to ask the
same set of questions of foundationsand of nonprofits around things
like, how well do you understand thechallenges your grantees are facing?
And then we asked nonprofits,how well do you think foundations
are understanding your challeng?
And for instance, what we seeon that question is that 93% of
(16:44):
foundations say we understand thechallenges our grantees are facing.
Whereas when we ask that same questionof nonprofits, only 54% of nonprofits
think that foundations understandthe challenges that they're facing.
And then we see those samesorts of discrepancies when
we ask about communication.
And so what it looks like is that thereis some communication really that needs to
(17:06):
be happening between funders and granteesabout what's actually happening in this
moment and what it is that nonprofitsneed to better align around those things
Eric (17:16):
for those organizations or foundations that seem to be in alignment.
Now, needless to say, you're not.
Interviewing grouped pairs, for example,because these things are anonymized,
so you have to draw some inferences.
But are you able to seeany lines in which the.
Grantee is reporting that my fundersdo a good job of communicating
(17:41):
with me, and I do have a sense ofthem, and they have a sense of me.
Are there ways in which thisline of communication is working?
Do we have any, are there any glimmersof hope about how foundations and
nonprofits can better communicate in orderto be able to meet each other's needs?
Elisha (17:58):
Yeah, there are.
There are a lot of examplesof that also on the data.
I mean, one of the thing wetalked about all the quantitative
data that we gathered.
But one of the things I didn't mention atfirst, but I referenced it a little bit
earlier, was that we did these interviews,30 interviews of nonprofits, 30 interviews
of foundations from around the countryto supplement that quantitative data.
And what we heard in a lot of theinterviews, 'cause we could really
(18:21):
dig in more and understand what washappening in some of these situations,
was that we heard from nonprofits whowere, um, having more success working
with funders during this moment.
That they were doing things like havingreg regular conversations with their
foundation partners, being able to haveto ask for things like space to meet
(18:41):
as a collective of organizations thatmight be thinking about collaborating
together, being able to have conversationsabout things beyond the grant.
In terms of capacity building, and sowhat came through really clearly in
the interviews was the need for justbeing in really close communication
and understanding what's happeningin communities at this moment too.
Eric (19:03):
I also have seen a lot out in the field about
foundations that are very worried.
That the government is gonnaraise their excise tax.
They're very worried that, thatthey're gonna be investigated
for one thing or another.
They don't seem to be merely as worriedabout the effectiveness of their grantees.
This also, not only does it feelreally tone deaf to me, but it also.
(19:27):
Suggests to me that many of thesefoundations don't understand about
how to actually get change made.
What are you hearing about in, inthose interviews with foundations?
Can you try to characterize thetone of their own sense of risk?
Elisha (19:45):
Yeah, I mean, we asked both in the interviews and in the
quantitative data about risk, andthe results were super interesting.
So when we asked.
Foundations, how willing do you perceivethat your foundation is to take risk?
69% were they said, oh, we, wethink we're willing to take risks.
But when we asked nonprofits thatsame question about their funders,
(20:06):
only 30% of nonprofits reported thattheir funders are willing to take.
Risk.
And so I, I think too, there's alot, we came out in the interviews,
are there a lot of questions aroundwhen we say risk, what do we mean?
So, and who's risk and who's at risk?
And so for instance, many nonprofitsthat we interviewed talked about
the risk of having to close or tomerge or to not be able to provide
(20:29):
services to the communities thatthey're working with, whether
they're providing meals or shelter,not being able to provide the risk.
Of individuals notreceiving those services.
And then, you know, on the foundationside, when we talk about risk, many of
the risks that came up in some of theinterviews were like the risk of being
in alignment with compliance for legalissues, the risk of spending more than
(20:53):
having planned out of an endowment.
You know, like those kinds of anexample, the risk of not being able to
execute on a strategy that had been set.
And so I think, you know,when we're talking about.
Risk is one of the other reasons thatcommunication is so important because
whose risk and who's at risk andwhat we mean can be very different
(21:14):
depending on where someone is sitting.
Eric (21:17):
All right.
Here's another one.
I would like you to just check my math.
Here's a statistic thatcaught, caught me short.
About two thirds of the foundationsmade emergency or rapid response grants.
Okay, great.
Good for you, but only abouta third increased payout.
So if you, if you made these emergencygrants, but you didn't increase your
(21:37):
payout in the same number, then areyou just robbing Peter to pay Paul?
Are they just taking away from otherareas to fund these emergency grants?
So somebody's gettingthe short end of this.
Did I do the math correctly?
Elisha (21:51):
That is a great question, Eric, and one of the same wonderings
that we had in interviews.
We asked actually, foundations thattalked about setting up emergency response
funds, what that looked like, how theymade that decision, and some of what we
heard in the interviews was that for theserapid response grants, even though folks
(22:13):
were doing them, they were often small.
So whether that's.
5K or three K or 10 K, you know, likea, a grant to help accelerate some
of the work an organization is doing.
But depending on the size ofthe organization, you know, not
necessarily a transformationalgrant to help them move through what
was a really big moment of crisis.
(22:35):
And so I think thispoint you raise around.
If only 30% of folks are increasingpayout, but they're doing rapid response
grants to your, to your point, the maththere somewhere is noting in terms of.
Where those funds are coming fromor if they're from the regular pot.
Like we didn't ask specifically everyorganization that question, but I think
(22:55):
you're onto something there in terms ofthe discrepancy that seems to appear.
Eric (22:59):
Alright.
I'm proud of myself for the math.
What we're gonna take, I, this is,this conversation has flown by so far.
We're gonna take a very, very, very shortbreak and we, we will be right back with
Alicia Smith Ariaga of the Center forEffective Philanthropy right after this.
Kirk (23:13):
You are listening to, let's Hear It, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hosted by
Eric (23:18):
Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of BreakfaRules with Glenn Gallic, CEO of the
St. Stukey Foundation, as he chatswith inspiring leaders in philanthropy,
government media, and more aboutbreaking the fake rules that don't
work so that we can build a futurethat does Check them out wherever you
Kirk (23:38):
get your podcasts.
And now back to the show.
Eric (23:45):
And we are back with Alicia Smith Ariaga of the Center
for Effective Philanthropy.
She's the co-author of a new report, aSector in Crisis, how US Nonprofits and
Foundations are responding to threats.
If you haven't figured it out,I'm, I'm very energized about this
report and kind of gobsmacked.
I have to tell you.
Here's another one, another statistic, andmaybe you have an answer for this, maybe
(24:09):
not, but I just wanted to raise it anyway.
20% of the foundations that you spokewith said that they don't believe that
foundations have much responsibility tohelp nonprofits navigate this moment.
Now, in the interviews that youdid, do you have any insight?
Into how or why theycould make this statement.
Elisha (24:31):
There were some interviewees that we talked to and foundations
around the country who they, theirsentiment at this moment was, we've
been in conversations with our board.
Our board is really asking usquestions around like, is it really
that, is it really a crisis moment?
Is it this moment reallythat different from COVID?
(24:51):
Is it a moment where we needto like really shift things
in some transformational way?
And so I would say there's definitelysome disagreement in the field in terms of
what this moment calls for, for the sector
Eric (25:05):
my brain first goes to, okay.
Board members have a tendency to have adifferent life experience than the people,
than the foundations even that they.
Support or that they serve on their boardof, and most certainly from the people who
those organizations are meant to support.
So this is just a call to actionabout, let's make sure that our
boards reflect the communities thatyou're hoping to support, so that.
(25:29):
These people are out of touch.
Elisha (25:31):
Yeah.
Eric (25:32):
Alright, here, here's another, here's another argument that has been,
this is a typical thing in philanthropy,which is, oh, our job isn't to replace
government funding and we don't have theresources, we don't have the whatevers.
But does the logic breakdown in a realcrisis when people are learning, losing
access to food and safety in healthcare?
And the way I think about it is,okay, if the levy breaks and FEMA
(25:55):
doesn't show up, do we really sayit's not our job to stop the flood?
Or do you just like, okay, it wasFEMA's job, they didn't do it,
and the place is flooding now.
Like, what are we gonna do?
And so does, does that logic break down?
Does government philanthropything break down right now?
Because right now it seems tobe the, the moment of all times.
Elisha (26:15):
I would agree, Eric, and actually many of the quotes that we include,
there are some really powerful quotesfrom the interviews that we include
in the report where there are somefunders who are calling others to task,
and they're saying if there's somequotes, and I don't remember the, the
exact wording, but one foundation, CEO,who says, if you're waiting for, if
(26:36):
you're on the sidelines waiting for theexistential moment, that moment is now.
Now is a moment to act, but basedon what we see in the data, there's
not, the majority of organizationsaren't necessarily reacting.
Uh, foundations aren't reacting inthat way with increasing payout or,
and there are a lot of folks who arechanging some of their practices.
(26:57):
They are doing more generaloperating support or changing their
application or reporting requirements.
But we're seeing, as you saidbefore, only 30, around 30%.
Of foundations who have increased payoutat this moment when we know there's an
increased need on the nonprofit side.
Eric (27:15):
This is another interesting thing 'cause I, I've been
participating with grantee perceptionreports for a really long time.
I was actually, when I was atHewlett, we were the first, one
of the first foundations to,to publish our, our GPR online.
And, and people were, oh mygod, I can't believe you're.
Telling people how badly you didon communications When I was a
communications guy, I might havebeen able to talk my boss outta
Kirk (27:38):
that.
Eric (27:38):
Okay.
But in general, it feels to me, andagain, please correct me if I'm wrong,
that the grantee perception report hashelped grantees and foundations understand
ways to align, ways to learn abouteach other, and that it has brought.
Organizations together, but this suggeststo me that we're about to see a rift.
(28:06):
We're about to startto see some distancing.
And given that you're conducting,I assume you're conducting grantee
perception reports every day.
Without naming any names, withouttelling anything out of school,
are you starting to see the gapwidening rather than tightening?
Elisha (28:26):
That's a great question, Eric, and actually one.
Oh, that'd be great for futureresearch because we have not looked
at the grantee perception report data,at least on our team in that way.
But I think it's a great pointand a great thing to look at.
I mean, I personally remain everhopeful that, that this data and
that what we're seeing in communitiesaround the country will help folks
(28:50):
really in 2026 hopefully rise to the.
To the moment of doing the thingsthat nonprofits need to be able
to serve those folks who they'reserving in communities everywhere.
So whether that's increasing payout orshifting grant requirements or talking
with boards in different kinds of waysto help them understand what's happening,
(29:11):
my hope is that those things will starthappening at a, at a faster pace than they
have been, and we'll see more change and.
To that end, one of the things thatwe're doing actually with this report is
we're releasing a two page supplement.
This just for boards.
It's a two page summary of the reportthat's called a board insert that that
(29:31):
we're hoping that funders can use toinsert in their board books as a helpful
tool for just level setting for folks.
This is the context in which we'recurrently operating, so if you have
questions about that, let's at leastall get on the same page about.
This is a current state.
There's increased demand, less funding.
Now what do we do?
So, and we're gonna be trying to thinkabout more resources like that this year
(29:55):
that just really try and help level dosome level setting for folks so then they
can get into a conversation about, okay,what actions do we now need to take?
Eric (30:02):
Now, a lot of these actions, to be fair, there are no.
Miracles here, the, the,and it's no secret either.
During COVID, we most certainly sawfoundations and other funders step up
with general support and reducing theirrequirements and things like making it
easier to give and get a grant, and yetit seems like these lessons either didn't
(30:25):
carry over or the sense of threat isn'tobtaining for, for many foundations.
Again, I don't wanna belabor this, butany sense of why they don't get that?
Elisha (30:42):
It's been interesting.
I mean, it's one of the, the things toothat we are, we're actually about to put
a survey out in the field in a few weeks.
Our state, our annual state nonprofitsreport, where we'll actually follow up
on some of these same questions againtoo, so we can track them over time.
Because I think we also have a,a similar question of, of why has
(31:05):
the response been so different?
And one of the things too that I, Ithink, you know, just in terms of the
total context that's really differentis during COVID, I, there was actually
a lot of federal funding being pouredinto nonprofit organizations with the.
Short term loans or the forgivable loans,and now there's the opposite, right?
(31:26):
There's funding being taken fromorganizations at the moment where
also because of other funding cuts,there's more need in communities,
whether that's to snap orhealthcare or other kinds of things.
And so there's just, it's a, it's areally, we are facing a lot of the
same challenges, but the response hasbeen, it, it just has looked different.
Eric (31:47):
And here's one more.
I hate to do this, but it's thesethings that I'm smacking myself
in the head to make sure that I'mstill alive and reading this stuff.
40% of nonprofit leaders say fundershave shifted priorities or requirements
in ways that are less helpful right now.
Kirk (32:02):
Too funny,
Eric (32:03):
like that one may be the, the cherry on top of this nasty
little cake of, of feedback fromgrantees about their foundations.
Any idea what, what that's about,where, where that's coming from
and what anyone can do about it.
Elisha (32:20):
Yeah.
Some of the, when we asked grantees andwhen we asked them profits in the study,
what were some of the things that hadbeen happening, you know, during this
moment, whether that was foundationsor other funders asking them to shift
the language on their websites or.
Actions that they've had to taketo mitigate risk, whether they were
(32:42):
being asked to or not, but theyhave had to change the language.
They use, shift programmaticwork, shift their communications.
And then when we ask funders some ofthose similar kinds of questions, we,
we see the the same kinds of things.
And so I think the interviewsprovide a lot more color around
(33:03):
some of the stories about how thisis happening, but it's definitely.
We definitely are seeingthese discrepancies here.
Eric (33:11):
All right, now here's the great big 99,000 whatever trillion
dollar question is philanthropy asit's currently designed, actually
built for moments like this.
Is our system kind of broken down?
Elisha (33:27):
That is the claimant.
Million dollar, a hundred milliondollar the the big question.
And my reaction is when we interviewednonprofit leaders and foundation
leaders around the country, one ofthe things that even in the midst of
all the challenges folks were facing,there is such a spirit of resilience
(33:51):
and people doing really creative thingsthat your overall would never have
even thought of that as a solution.
And so I think the solutions are there.
That the individuals working inphilanthropy and in all kinds of
nonprofits, they are doing thework in communities every day, that
that could be possible solutions.
(34:12):
And I think some of it isjust around, it's not like.
Really, is it the right structure or not?
But are we really activating in theway that we need to in this moment?
Eric (34:21):
Well, th thanks for for bringing it into the positive 'cause.
I was actually going to go there, believeit or not, even though I sound like
one of those muppets up in the balcony.
What are three or four things thatyou would encourage foundations and
maybe their grantees to do right nowor to think about right now that can
(34:42):
help us through this, this moment?
Elisha (34:46):
Well, one big one, and I think the data definitely points to this, is
just communication is always important.
But it is more important than evernow, and I don't mean like the, let's
do a check in call, but no, what'sactually happening in the community?
How is, you know, the nonprofitusually work with that provides food.
(35:06):
How has their clientele shifted?
What is happening in that communityand what are people who are being
served by that organization sayingthey need, like really having a
deep understanding of that I thinkis more important than ever is one.
I think two is getting really creativeabout funding strategies and having
courage and being willing to take risks.
(35:26):
And I don't, you know, when, whenI say risk, I mean risk in terms of
being creative with different sortsof legal strategies or financing
strategies or whatever that may be.
Because I think the real risk isto communities and individuals who
may not get the services that theyneed, like that's actually the
highest risk and centering that.
(35:47):
In decision making.
I think it's super important.
And so I think both of those thingsare, are gonna be really key in
terms of moving forward in some moreproductive ways than we currently are.
Eric (35:59):
Well, your work has shined a really important light.
On what's happening.
I've always said that statistics and,and research, survey, research like this,
it, it puts a number on the zeitgeist.
I think we all had a sense thatthere's a disconnect, but being able
to actually articulate it in this wayis a phenomenal service to the field,
(36:20):
and it validates the sensibilities thatyou get just from talking to people.
I think that's one of the real.
Gifts that CEP has been ableto provide over the years.
Phenomenal tool and, and aresource for foundations, but also
it gives the grantees a chanceto communicate in a safer way.
(36:41):
So thank you so much for your work.
Thank you for thisincredibly valuable report.
I do hope that we have theopportunity to make sure that.
All the foundation folks and their granteeand their, their trustees and their board
members read this and take it in andunderstand that they cannot be effective
if their grantees are not effective.
(37:02):
That we are absolutelyall in this together.
And I, I thank you for your work,congratulate you on, on this amazing
thing that you're able to do, andAlicia Smith, aka you're amazing.
Thank you.
Elisha (37:17):
Thanks so much Eric, and thanks so much for having me.
It's been great talking with you today.
Eric (37:21):
Well, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you again.
Kirk (37:26):
And we're back.
Okay.
Okay, so I think,
Eric (37:28):
can you believe what you just heard?
Can you believe,
Kirk (37:37):
try to read you, Ann,
Eric (37:38):
what
Kirk (37:39):
dentist.
So here, here's my, here's my questionabout, because, because I'm trying
to create a little space, a littlecompassion, a little empathy for what's
going on, that there's something verypowerful that's been under here difficult.
But here, here's my honest question.
Do we actually know what ishappening right now and why it's
(38:02):
happening and how it's happening?
Please be more specific.
I don't wanna be because that I,because that, well then the answer is
Eric (38:10):
no.
Kirk (38:11):
So, so, because I totally agree.
I don't think we know what's happening.
I don't think we know why it's happening.
I don't think we know how it's happening.
I don't think we even know what it is.
So I just wanna make that pitchas we, it's, as we roll up our
sleeves and go get into this.
So there's a hidden context forthis conversation, which is, well,
(38:32):
somebody somewhere should knowthe answer to those questions.
What's happening, why it'shappening, how it's happening.
The answer should bedouble down on your giving.
So all these nonprofits that are bringingthe brunt of trying to soften the
globe, this whole thing that's goingon, those dollars should be available.
And, and I guess I just wannasay I, I get that critique.
I think I share the critique and yet thispiece of, that we don't actually know,
(38:55):
even though it's opening all around us,and to us and in us every single day, the
fact that we actually don't know what'shappening, why or how it's happening.
Maybe as part of the reason that it's sohard, even if you're sitting on a massive
endowment to mobilize resources because.
What does even a good response look like?
So that, that's the one just empathetic,sympathetic thing I wanted to say.
(39:17):
Eric Brown, you've got the floor.
Eric (39:18):
Well, the, the Center for Effective Philanthropy is helping
us understand what's happening.
Kirk (39:24):
Yeah.
Eric (39:24):
They're asking the grantees, how you doing?
And the answer is, we're not doing good.
And they're saying,well, what's the problem?
Like?
And the answer is, wedon't have enough money.
We don't have enough support from our, ourfunders, we don't have enough, whatever
you wanna call it, capacity building.
We don't have anything.
And we, the money's not flexible enough.
They're requiring too manyconditions, all that stuff.
(39:47):
The answer is give us more money sothat we can deal with these crises
and we know what the crises are.
Federal funding is being cut.
People are getting into our businessand trying to legislate on on things
like diversity and stuff like that.
All of that stuff.
We know that, and we have this way oflearning about what grantees need, and
(40:08):
then you ask the grantees, do your.
Do your funders understandyour challenges?
Like half of them say yes.
Yes, the foundations.
Do you understand yourgrantees challenges?
All of them say yes.
This is like he said, shesaid, man of them are whatever
foundations are from Mar and.
(40:29):
Nonprofits or is like, this is a totaldisconnect and how can this possibly be?
And then, I mean, you know, when youhave the 20% of foundations that say
that actually, uh, funders don't reallyneed to help their grantees succeed.
So what's the point?
Why are you in business?
(40:49):
So this disconnect is astonishing to me.
So I will grant you that like.
I would say 50% of the grantees seem tothink that 50% of their funders are 50%.
Okay.
Or some like version of that.
So there are good funders out there.
They wanna do better.
They're putting more money out, theyare understanding the risks and all that
(41:10):
other stuff, but there is a big swath ofthem out there who don't seem to get it.
Kirk (41:17):
Mm-hmm.
So I, I think.
We're here.
I don't think I've ever seenyou completely beside yourself.
Eric (41:23):
This, or if there was video, there would be two of me.
I would be me and I would bethe one that's beside myself.
Kirk (41:30):
Be, and, and again, I, I try, I, because you get to
occupy that, I'm so angry space.
I get to try to occupy theepi empathy, empathetic space.
But can I tell you, I think thisis even worse than what's here.
Eric (41:40):
Oh, good.
Kirk (41:40):
Because, uh, it, I'm not gonna name names, but at least in the world
that I'm within and some of the workthat we see and stuff, it actually
gets even worse than literally
Eric (41:48):
don't name names.
And by the way,
Kirk (41:49):
yeah,
Eric (41:50):
I saved your job.
I edited out this terrible thingyou said a couple of episodes ago.
You're welcome.
You save me
Kirk (41:58):
regularly, you
Eric (41:59):
save, get everything
Kirk (42:00):
I'm doing.
The cutting, the cutting roomfloor will be under Earth and
that will never work again.
But you'll be living under
Eric (42:06):
a rock.
Kirk (42:06):
But I think this gets even worse because I think, you know,
this conversation is about thefoundations that are staying in days.
There's a whole other set of, of, offoundations that have said, oh, things
are so bad to the United States, we'rejust not gonna work there anymore.
And it's like.
Wait a minute.
That's your answer.
Your answer to this moment is, andfrom a foundation of logic model
(42:27):
pinpoint, it makes perfect sense.
'cause it's like, well,we've got limited resources.
We're gonna invest dollars wherewe can get big outside gains.
You know, the issues we work on haveglobal relevance anyway, so let's,
let's attack these battles wherethey were able to get, and I. That
thinking is part of what's created thisinevitable black hole of Atri business.
(42:48):
Trying to pull all this down.
The say so it gets even worse, Ithink, than what the Center for
Effective Philanthropy is actually a
Eric (42:53):
to.
Yeah, you're right.
And I just to put a finer point onsome of these statistics, 40% of
non-profit leaders say that fundershave shifted priorities or requirements
in ways that are less helpful.
Right now, 40% say thatfunders are shifting.
Money in ways that are less helpful.
So if they just did everythingthe same, that's better.
(43:18):
And then, and that, that 20% statisticas, and I pulled it back up again.
20% of foundations say they don't believefoundations have much responsibility to
help nonprofits navigate this moment.
Well, what are they in business for?
It's, it's again, ah, okay.
That's my answer.
Kirk (43:37):
This moment that we're in.
Makes no sense.
So here, here's the question.
'cause I thought it was sointeresting, this question of risk.
69% of foundations say they take risks.
30% of nonprofits sayfoundations take risks, right?
So like, like if you're in thefoundation sheet, you're like, oh.
You're like, oh no, we take risks.
Well, here's my my question.
In a world that makes no sense, andyou're sitting on top of a multi-billion
(44:02):
dollar endowment or endowment of anysize, and you're trying to make decisions
to navigate a world that makes no sense.
What did you rightfully view?
Any proactive decision that you madein this time is actually an enormous
risk because you have no idea whatthreats are coming coming at you.
So this notion of there's this deepconservatism to kind of protect something
(44:22):
from being completely eradicated, Ican kind of empathize with from the
standpoint that as the nonprofit,yes, you're broke, you need resources.
As the funder, you've got tons ofresources, but you don't want, in
this world that doesn't make sense.
Somebody to show by the blue and gowhack-a-mole with your capacity to try
to help make the world a better place.
Eric (44:40):
Yes, but in the, in the words of the immortal Don Draper,
that's what the money's for.
That's what the money's for.
It is to deal with terrible,crazy, nutty situations.
I mean, ostensibly philanthropyis there to deal with crazy
things to make them better.
And it, you know, again, this isthe, almost the levy breaking idea.
(45:05):
Let's just say FEMA doesn't do his job.
The levees break, and we're flooding.
So geez, throw your hands upand say, that's not my problem.
No, you fix the problem anyway.
And I think these very large foundationscan be a bulwark against the craziness.
They can help provide some gravity andsome stability and some sense, and help
(45:25):
these organizations make it to the next.
Administration, make it tothe next thing, push back.
I mean, that's what they're there for.
They're there for crisis as well asbuilding for the future and all those
other things, but you cannot buildfor a future that may not exist.
Yeah.
You have to defend against thethings that are the biggest threats
if these organizations go out ofbusiness because the funders say,
(45:46):
oh, we live in this crazy world.
They will not be here when we need them.
And that is just a fact.
Kirk (45:54):
It made me wondered how much of what might be happening within
philanthropy at scale has to do withthe notion that we're all rightfully
committed to systems level change.
So, you know, I don't wanna fix one levee.
I wanna create the rule thatgets every, every levee fixed
and creates massive resources.
'cause I don't havethe dollars to do that.
(46:15):
And, and again, in this world where thesystem, what our conception of even the
system is, is being completely upended.
I wonder again, if that's alsopartly what freezes the response.
'cause it feels like that's all you'redoing is, is trying to put fingers
in dikes and you're like, well, thatwhole dike is coming down anyway.
Maybe, maybe I can't actually, I can'tactually make the changes that, that
(46:36):
with, I could just push all my moneyto the center of the table and it's
all gonna be as bad or worse anyway.
So, so what?
What's the point of it?
Eric (46:43):
Well, if everybody drowns in the flood, then creating the
system to build better leveeswill be too little, too late.
Kirk (46:52):
You've mentioned in the past, you know, somebody said we should
be working on project 2029 orwhatever the right number would be.
So this is the only thing,'cause again this, this question
of like, what's happening?
How's it happening?
Why is it happening?
It's so fundamental.
Our world is being so upended,it's being so tipped over.
Do you believe that there'sa game plan somewhere?
(47:12):
That some party of peoplehad been part parties to?
That anticipated what iscoming and then said, here's a
game plan for how to respond.
Because that's the other thing that I,I pick up from this conversation is that
all of our partners in philanthropy,let alone our partners in profits,
everyone's kind of like kind of tryingto deal with this in, in the context
of their own perception of reality.
(47:34):
Is there, and I'm sure it's happeningat the, at the field level organizing
where there's a hundred foundationscoming together saying like, Hey, here's
systematically what we're happeningof seeing happen across the field.
Here's how we can pancakeand leverage our resources.
Don't you think that'shappening somewhere?
And is, but yet is the net some of thatbeing Yes, but we're still not seeing
enough or dollars coming to the field?
Eric (47:52):
God, I hope so.
Kirk (47:54):
Yeah.
Eric (47:54):
I, I really, really hope so.
But, but if you think about it,the answers on the foundation side.
To these questions in this surveysuggest to you that it is not happening?
Kirk (48:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric (48:09):
Because it suggests to you that foundations do not understand
the gravity of the situation.
Kirk (48:15):
Yeah.
Eric (48:15):
Or they understand and this is even worse.
They understand it and they don't care.
Kirk (48:20):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (48:20):
Or not enough of them care.
Kirk (48:22):
Mm.
Eric (48:23):
And and both of those things are very, very troubling.
Totally.
But if they said, yes, there's a problem,we all need to be a part of the solution.
Our grantees are essential parts of that.
If they are not effective,then we are not effective.
If you had that coming outof this survey saying mm-hmm.
We are all together on this, we haven'tarticulated what the plan is specifically,
(48:43):
or even if we have, we're not gonna tellyou because we don't wanna show our cards.
That would be different, but by.
This reading, this is such acanary in the coal mine report.
Kirk (48:55):
Mm-hmm.
Eric (48:56):
Anyone within the sound of our voice needs to read it.
If you work at a foundation ora nonprofit, you need to know
either what you're up againstor what you're up against.
Because this really does signalto me that there's this phenomenal
disconnect happening betweenfoundations and nonprofits that
appeared to have been narrowing
Kirk (49:18):
mm-hmm.
Eric (49:18):
For a while, but.
And I, and I asked, I asked Alicia thisquestion at the very end, which is,
does philanthropy even work anymore?
Is the model broken?
Does it not do what?
Ostensibly, I think we had all hopedthat philanthropy was supposed to do,
(49:38):
which is come up with good ideas, buildfor the future, help change systems,
and be responsive to the needs of thefolks that they hope to be able to serve.
And I can't say with totalconfidence, I can't say with, with
minimal confidence right now thatphilanthropy is meeting this moment.
Some of them are for sure.
(49:58):
Mackenzie, Scott, God bless her.
Some of the big foundations have beenstepping up and some of them haven't.
And the question is for thosewho haven't, is it really because
they think there's no problem?
Kirk (50:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eric (50:09):
Is they think this is an overblown crisis?
Yeah.
And someone said, actually,is this really a crisis?
Is it that different from COVID?
Oh, what?
Like COVID was nothing.
COVID was a big thing.
Kirk (50:20):
Well, actually the disconnect with COVID I thought was so interesting the
way you guys were talking about that,because, you know, COVID, the nonprofit
sector emerges as what an incrediblechannel of resources to help provide
basic needs and services as a time whengovernments were being overt, strapped.
So there was a financial influxto support all these nonprofits
providing basic services.
(50:41):
You know, and so that right, the up theupside down, what would now is that now
those dollars, at least from a federalstandpoint, are being pulled back.
They're being pulled back in so manydifferent areas because this notion
that there's gonna be some kind ofsupport mechanism required to navigate
the world that we're in, that notionitself is, is completely under threat.
So, so I keep going back to thisquestion like we're saying, is
(51:01):
philanthropy built for moments like this?
Well, what is the moment?
And I think that's part of the problemhere, is that the moment is being
inadequately you could find for all of us.
Eric (51:10):
Okay.
So there's a, a couple of otherlayers to this thing and, and I
don't have all the answers, but, uh.
On the one hand, Alicia talksa lot about the kind of the
service providing organizations.
Kirk (51:21):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Eric (51:22):
Right.
Uh, so these are folks whoare, you know, pick your thing.
They're dealing with hunger, they'redealing with health crises in communities.
They're services.
She doesn't talk a lot about.
The strategic, the long term,the climate change, the other
stuff, democracy, you name it.
Kirk (51:41):
Right.
Eric (51:41):
And, and I'd be curious to know whether there was much of a
statistical difference in the responsesof grantees based on whether they are
providing day-to-day or responsiveservices, or, I have the same
Kirk (51:53):
question,
Eric (51:54):
long-term strategic organizations.
Yeah, that is a question I willask them and I hope that we have
that conversation in the future.
My hypothesis is that the differencesare probably not as stark as you would
think, but I'm curious about that.
Mm-hmm.
So it, it, that, that isa part of the question.
I would, I would dial backmy criticism by, nah, 21%.
(52:16):
If, if I find out that there is, uh,a, a big difference between the service
providing organizations who say that theirfunders don't understand them and the
other long term strategic ones, however.
You are a funder and you are inthe service providing business.
Let's just say you're a communityfunder or whatever you're dealing
with homelessness or housing orhealth or that kind of thing, and your
(52:39):
grantees say that you don't get them.
Well, that's a problem too.
Like it's almost like youcannot win in this one.
This disconnect is, is so profoundthat it must suggest that there is
some kind of fundamental lack ofunderstanding between Yeah, these.
These two sets of institutions.
Kirk (52:59):
No, I think that's a great point.
And I had the samequestion in my mind too.
It's like, yeah, how much of this isbeing felt by the service providers versus
like the sort of what you would maybecall the strategic philanthropy part of,
you know, big strategy plays it go on.
And I did think that conversation youguys had about the grantee perception
reports and you know, do we see this riftbetween sort of haves versus have nots?
So I think it sounds like Center forEffect philanthropy might pick that up
(53:22):
and do a little bit more work with that.
So this, this gets me back tothat, you know, do, do we know
what's happening in why and how.
So what I, what I hope happens isthat very soon somebody will come
forward and say, well, actually, here'sour critical unflinching, sober and
transparent assessment for actually what'shappening, why it, how it's happening.
I believe that that story wouldchallenge us very deeply in terms
(53:43):
of our understanding of how thisworld has been working for a while.
That could unlock two things.
It could create a different strategyfor the strategic philanthropy folks
to say, oh, actually this is thegame we need to be playing in, so
let's invest in all the things thatwe think can make change as far as
our understanding of what's going on.
And then it will create morespace for the service provider
philanthropists to say, oh, I get it.
(54:04):
There's a five year X year numberof year arc here where we need
to double down because this basicservice need is not being met.
So here's the gap we can fill.
And I think that until you haveclarity about those two things.
It's hard for philanthropy to movebecause again, if I, if I just try to
put myself inside the room of, I'vegot billions of dollars around me
that I dunno what to do, I actuallyfeel like I'm at a high risk space.
(54:27):
I actually feel like I'm actuallydoing everything that I can do.
And until you can, using in anevidence-based way, show me how many
dollars get me from here to there.
Like actually show me how Ican get through this moment.
I'm probably gonna feel like doing less,even though I feel like the little bit I'm
doing, I feel like is more than enough.
And then, but that's my own.
I don't know if that's right or wrong,what I just said, but that, that's
what I, that's what I feel like iswhat's needed in this moment that
(54:48):
we're in whatever that moment is.
Eric (54:50):
I, I, I don't, I don't think that's bad, but the evidence thing, uh, almost
always happens retrospectively, andwe can't operate like that right now.
Kirk (54:58):
Yeah, fair.
Eric (54:59):
Very fair.
You have to kind of do all theabove, which is you have to.
You have to make sure thatyour grantees survive.
You have to make sure that they'reable to meet the basic needs of their
constituents, however you define them.
Kirk (55:09):
Yeah,
Eric (55:09):
and, and then you have to go back and look and see what happened.
Because these things happen.
They run in cycles.
We will have another crisis moment where.
Foundations can do a ton to step in andmake things better in the short term.
And yes, they may have to spendmore than they had hoped instead
of going out of business at never,they'll go outta business in
(55:32):
150 years because they're, yeah.
You know, or whatever.
So the, those are the kinds ofthings that I think we need to do.
I agree that we need to do alot more thinking, a lot more.
Analysis a lot more of this typeof work that Center for Effective
Philanthropy does, which is bothquantitative and qualitative.
Kirk (55:52):
Yeah.
Eric (55:53):
So that we better understand what folks need.
If you are in the business to makechange, then make change and, and
that's the most important thing of all.
And this suggests to me thatsomething is not working and we
have to figure out what that is, orwe should just blow up the system.
Kirk (56:13):
Can we just say a big thank you to the Center for Effective Philanthropy
for being willing to do this work?
The fact that there's a report hereat all is only possible because
they have so much credibility andtrust in the field that they can
ask questions that people respond.
You know, so there's a quantitative part.
They did certain work.
There's a qualitative part.
They did interviews.
That means that people picked upthe phone, you know, they were, they
(56:35):
were off record, but they were able,they were willing to speak honestly.
This kind of introspection,self-reflection, transparency.
This is what's absolutelycrucial for making the field
work and work more effectively.
And so, you know, Ellie, Sierra, granterChristina in, you know, um, Alicia, AKA
Eric (56:54):
Christina.
Kirk (56:54):
Sorry,
Eric (56:55):
sorry, Christina.
Kirk (56:55):
Sorry, Christina.
M sorry, Christina.
You know that TEG deciding to do thiswork at this time, it's so crucially
important, and we're grateful.
We're grateful that you are givingus this insight into what's going
on, and the next phase of thiscouldn't happen quickly enough.
Right?
The next phase of this where theanswer to how do we deal with this?
We need that.
(57:17):
A year ago, years, a couple.
No, we need it urgently.
Right.
Eric (57:22):
Also, to be fair, and I hear those of you out there about to
make this point that, you know, thiswasn't funded by fairy godparents,
it was funded by philanthropy.
And like I said, philanthropyhas been my career in my life
for the last 20 something years.
I totally understand the organizationsthat are working hard to do the right
thing, and we need more of them and thatwe, we need them to be doing more of it.
(57:43):
And that's what this is all about.
It would be a boring conversationif we didn't care about both
of these types of institutions.
So I, I, I wanna make that clear.
I'm not just Yeah, you know, screamingat all philanthropy in the abstract, but
in the specific, we need to do better.
We need to figure this out.
For those out there who reallywanna do this, this is the type of
(58:05):
report that you need to spend a lotof time with to ask and answer the
question, what role am I playing?
In, in helping to improve this situation,what can I do to make these things better?
And that's what this is here for.
Yes, I am to, I'm reallygrateful, so grateful Center
for Effective Philanthropy.
(58:25):
I've, I've, I love thisorganization for a really long time.
And, and this is exactly thekind of work that they do so
well, that helps us all improve.
Kirk (58:35):
So the report is a second crisis at US nonprofits and
foundations are responding to threats.
Alicia Smith Arga and her team at theCenter for Effective Philanthropy.
You can find it on their website in Eric.
Great conversation.
Alicia.
Thank you for coming and let'shear it and there will be more.
We'll be back with more.
Thank you all for doing this with us.
Eric (58:55):
Okay everybody.
That's it for this episode.
Please let us know if you haveany thoughts about what you heard
today or people we should haveon this show, and that definitely
Kirk (59:03):
includes yourself.
And we'd like to thank JohnAli, the tuneful and inspiring
composer of our theme music.
Eric (59:09):
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation,
Kirk (59:12):
and please check out Lumina's terrific podcast, today's students
tomorrow's talent, and you canfind that@luminafoundation.org.
Eric (59:20):
We certainly thank today's guest, and of course, all of you,
Kirk (59:22):
and most importantly, thank you, Mr. Brown.
Eric (59:26):
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
Kirk (59:28):
Okay, everybody, till next time.
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