August 11, 2026 • 50 mins
We are delighted to have College Futures Foundation CEO Eloy Ortiz Oakley back on the show to talk about one of our favorite subjects – the value of a college degree or certificate. Eloy joined us to talk about a new study College Futures commissioned from Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce that makes a powerful case about how valuable a college education is, not only to students, but to California’s economy.
The conversation also offers a perfect example of how a foundation can use research to move policy makers and other decisionmakers to action.
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(00:00):
Welcome to Let's Hear It.
Let's Hear It is a podcast forand about the field of foundation
and nonprofit communications,produced by its two co-hosts, Eric
Brown and Kirk Brown, no relation.
Well said, Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by thePrebys Foundation, a foundation
creating an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:22):
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(00:43):
Let's get onto the show.
I love that we're getting return guests.
This is a welcome andimportant returning edition.
Hi, Kirk.
Hello, Mr. Brown.
How's it going?
It's going.
You still hot in this very hot summer?
Oh, no, it's sunny and beautifultoday And beautiful and perfect
and magnificent weather Great dayto sell a house in San Francisco.
Right.
And people buy the house like, "Oh,the weather's always good." And
then the next day comes- Right,right … it's 41 degrees, and they go-
(01:05):
Yeah … "What did I just do?" Right.
Come and see the sun for one day, oneday only in the summer in San Francisco.
Exactly.
So take us to this, becausethis is a return guest.
This is a really importantconversation, and it's timely,
timely, timely for all of us.
I'll say Eloy Ortiz Oakley, thepresident and CEO of the College Futures
Foundation, who some of you may rememberfrom about two years ago, is back to
(01:29):
talk about this very, very interestingnew research that College Futures
commissioned from Georgetown University.
And I have to say, I, I don'twanna give away the news,
but it's really interesting.
It is really important for the peopleof the state of California, because
they talk about the value of highereducation economically to the state of
(01:50):
California, and that's all I'll say.
Yeah, and the work was done withthe Georgetown University Center
in Education of the Workforce.
And go find this report online.
It's called The Golden Ticket (01:59):
How Raising Postsecondary Attainment Rates to 70%
for All Demographic Groups Would UnlockDecades of Prosperity in California.
They don't have to go o- They can go toletshearit@cast.com- That's it … and
we'll put it in the show notes.
Let's Hear It will takeyou straight to it.
But, uh- Don't go anywhere.
We'll do all the work for you.
Come to us.
But so let's listen in.
How we roll.
This… Let's listen in.
(02:19):
This is so important, this finding, andthe backdrop here of what's happening
with education is so important.
And Eloy Ortiz Oakley, president andCEO of College Futures Foundation,
formerly the chancellor of theCalifornia Community Colleges.
My goodness, one of the mostimportant- Yes … institutions
of its kind in the world.
A- as, as I say ad nauseam in thisepisode, I am the product of the
(02:42):
California Community College system.
I had wandered off into the wildernessand wandered back and found my way
into community college in Monterey,California, and then got to transfer to
Berkeley, and then my life got to begin.
So I, if anybody can speak tothe value of higher education in
the way that Eloy talks about it,and we'll talk about it after we
listen, it is I. It's, it's- Or me.
(03:04):
Right.
It's, it's an incredible system.
It is.
So let's listen.
This is Eloy.
This guy.
This Ortiz, Ortiz Oakley on Let's Hear It.
We'll listen.
We'll come back.
Over the past 10 years, more andmore Americans are deciding that
college isn't worth the cost.
Now, this is amazing to me.
Generations of parents did whatever theycould to send their kids to college.
(03:26):
Not anymore.
In a recent poll, nearly two-thirdsof respondents said it's not worth it.
Too much debt, too little to show for it.
My guest today is pushing back.
Eloy Ortiz Oakley walked into acommunity college classroom one day,
more or less by accident, and itchanged the trajectory of his life.
And as Eloy and I talked two yearsago, it changed the trajectory of my
life as well, so I totally get it.
(03:49):
Eloy then went on to run the largestcommunity college system in the country.
Now he is president and CEO of theCollege Futures Foundation, where his
job is to ensure that more studentswho have not been well-served by
the education system have a chanceto get a degree or credential,
because that's good for all of us.
And he's working to make the case.
College Futures commissioned GeorgetownCenter on Education and the Workforce
(04:11):
to run the numbers on what it wouldmean for California's economy if
70% of all demographic groups gota college degree or certificate.
Eloy will tell us what they learned.
Eloy, thank you so very much forcoming back to Let's Hear It.
It's great to be here,and it's great to be back.
Okay, so let's just dive right in.
We are at a very, very strange moment-… where a majority of Americans have started
(04:34):
to question whether college is worth it.
Now, you spent your whole life, yourwhole career inside this system.
When you hear that kind of skepticismWhy do you think people think this?
Well, first of all, let me just say that,as you mentioned at the top of the show
here, community colleges saved my life.
It saved lives of tens of thousands,if not hundreds of thousands,
(04:58):
of Americans across the country.
It is the truly most uniqueAmerican system of higher education.
It is America first- Yeah.
… for some of my friends onthe other side of the aisle.
No other country has a system ofhigher education like community
colleges, so I'll just start there.
Community colleges are in everycommunity across the country.
(05:20):
However, we are in this strange momentwhere more and more Americans are starting
to question why they need to go tocollege, the cost of going to college, not
just in terms of the tuition, but the costof housing, the cost of transportation,
the cost of not being able to hold downa full-time job while you go to school.
(05:43):
Having to make thosechoices, it's very difficult.
Certainly in states like mine here inCalifornia, the cost of living is through
the roof, and that's true of just aboutevery community in the country right now.
So people are making choices, and they'reasking the question, "If I invest 40,
50, 60, and in some cases $100,000 toget my education, is it gonna pay off?"
(06:09):
And I think that's a good question to ask.
I think every family, everyindividual who's making a choice
should be asking these questions.
It's just before we were just toldthat everybody needed to go to college
and there wasn't enough information toreally understand the cost of college.
And now with information, my organizationhas done a lot of work to put out
(06:33):
information about the cost, thereturn on investment in college, and
so have a lot of other institutions.
That cost is becoming more transparentand people see it every day.
You're in a car with your Uber driverand you s- start up a conversation and he
or she is telling you about how they gottheir degree, how they couldn't find work.
So all these things are in thewater that you throw into this,
(06:56):
a populist president who's got amessage about anti-establishment
and what's more establishmentthan American higher education?
So I think all that is in the mix.
It's unfortunate.
There is some truth inthe middle of all that.
But at the end of the day,everybody in every community loves
their local community college.
They may complain about the restof higher ed, but they all love
(07:18):
their local community college,and it still is the most- Right
affordable way to getyour higher education.
Yeah, it's sort of like your memberof Congress, you hate Congress, but
you keep re-electing the same guy.
That's right.
But for different reasons, 'causeg- uh, 'cause we know that community
college works and it's the value,particularly there, the cost is
relatively low, although you stillhave to live in California in order to
be able to go, and that's not cheap.
(07:38):
Right.
Like you, I worked my way throughcommunity college and saw its
benefits, but a- as you say,it almost feels like there is a
perception that the value isn't there.
Mm-hmm.
And some of it is anecdotal because yourUber driver is telling you about their
degree and they're driving an Uber, butsome of it, it seems to me like there
is an understanding that today's jobsare not designed for today's learners.
(08:01):
How is this playing out, particularly inCalifornia, but how are you seeing both a
perception problem and a reality problemthat's mitigating against people investing
their own time in, in higher education?
Right.
I think pa- part of the situationthat we're in right now, it's
a s- small context of what'shappening throughout the world.
We have a lot of people gettinga lot of information, most of it
(08:24):
bad information You have a lot ofpeople on social media talking about
what it means to go to college.
I mean, I just think about myyoungest daughter, she's 23.
She goes to U- UC Riverside.
She gets all of her information abouther classes, her professors from Reddit
or from Discord or from social media.
(08:45):
She very rarely gets it from meor from- … any professional
advisor at the university.
So we are flooded today withinformation, a lot of it bad, a
lot of it could be correct, butjust not being ingested right.
So it's hard for people to reallyunderstand what's going on.
Then you couple that with the enormousamount of debt that many learners
(09:07):
and their families have had to incur.
I mean, during the entireBiden administration, we heard
about the student debt crisis.
We're in this again.
I just read a recent headline, onein four borrowers are now in default.
This weighs on people's minds, and soit's hard for them to discern what's
really going on the ground, what's goingon at their community college, what's
(09:30):
going on at their four-year regional.
Most of the rhetoric is being driven bythe most rejective, the most expensive
colleges and universities in the country.
Many of them were f-for profits at one time.
Many of them are extremelyexpensive schools that leave
students with a lot of debt.
(09:51):
So what we're trying to do at CollegeFutures is break through some of
that noise and actually create amarketplace that gives learners and their
families more and better information.
Where is true value being created?
'Cause value is both the cost of youreducation, but what you get in return.
What is the likelihood that your programof study is gonna lead to a job, to
(10:15):
a career that pays that back quickly?
And so I think the more informationwe can put out there that puts into
clear context what's really going onand helps people make choices and the
right choices- I think some of thiswill go away, and we'll get back to
some, a state of people understandingthat higher education is a great value.
(10:37):
I mean, we still see time and timeagain that getting a four-year degree
still pays off over the long term.
It's just that there are a lot of examplestoday where it doesn't, and there are
more and more, and we need to do somethingdifferent in the higher education
industry to push back on that and to showclear and true value for the learner.
(10:58):
Well, College Futures Foundation has beenworking on more than anything, it seems
to me, dealing with the disproportionateeffects- Mm-hmm … of, of lack of
college attainment among people ofcolor, Latino and Hispanic families
regionally in the state of California.
Mm-hmm.
Can you talk about how the perceptionsaround the value of higher education
(11:21):
are forming among those communitiesthat would benefit from it the most?
Some of the unfortunate parts aboutour American higher education system
is that it was designed around asort of ideal learner in the minds of
college and university administrators.
The 18 to 25-year-old graduates from highschool, goes off to a four, sometimes
(11:42):
five-year residential universityexperience, goes to the football
games, goes to a few keg parties.
You know, that's the sort of thenostalgic view of what college and
university student looks like today.
But the reality is it's much different.
You know, well over 60% ofstudents enrolled in college
(12:04):
today are older than 25.
They're typically working.
They have families.
They're caring for loved ones.
Many of them are workingmore than one job.
That's certainly true ofcommunity college students.
Certainly in my state, in California,the two million community college
students, these are normal everydaypeople trying to get through life,
(12:25):
having to work, make choices, take careof their family, and every morning they
wake up and they're asking questions.
How am I gonna get through the day?
What am I going to prioritize?
What am I gonna pay for today?
Am I gonna pay the rent?
Am I gonna pay for the skyrocketingcost of fueling my vehicle?
Am I gonna pay for food for my kids?
(12:47):
Or am I gonna pay the tuition today?
Do I have to show up to class,or do I need to go to work?
These are the choices that the majorityof learners have to make, and the
American higher education system wasnot designed for them, and continues
to fail to be designed for them.
So that's what we try to point out atCollege Futures, is that while California
(13:10):
being the fourth largest economy on theplanet, one of the wealthiest places on
Earth, also has the highest poverty ratein all of America, of all 50 states.
So both of these things can be true.
We have an excellent publichigher education system.
We have the California MasterPlan for Higher Education.
It led us to where we are today,but it is failing us for the needs
(13:34):
of today and into the future.
And we're trying to highlight thatwe have a whole segment of learners,
millions and millions of learners, thatwe have to now redesign for and make
sure that they have an opportunity toget skills and competencies and the
learning they need in order to competein the economy that's being created today
and will continue to be shaped by AI.
(13:56):
And that seems to be the countervailingargument and movement in higher education,
that this focus on the four-year degreethat you go away to and stay in a dorm and
go to a kegger- Mm-hmm … is but a smallway to meet people's higher education
needs, and that people are starting tounderstand that certificates matter.
Mm-hmm.
Even if they're working in a job, theywill go to a, a community college and
get a- another certificate so they canget a better job within their company.
(14:19):
Right.
This is all higher education.
Exactly.
And we're seeing thevalue of that as well.
How are you making that case, and howdoes College Futures talk about the
various ways that an adult learnercan improve their lives, get a better
job, build their community- Mm-hmm
and have a better life?
I'll, I'll point out three waysthat we're working on this.
(14:40):
One is to change the narrative in thepublic about what higher education is.
You know, not only has it beensort of this mythology about what a
college student looks like, the 18to 24-year-old But there's also this
false narrative about that it's a oneand done situation, that you go get
(15:01):
your college degree and you're done.
Both of those myths arecompletely false today.
One, the demand, while there's a declinein the number of students going to K-12,
graduating from high school, and thisis true across the country, and you
hear a lot about the enrollment cliff,basically that the number of students
(15:22):
who are graduating from high schoolsgoing off to college is declining.
That demographic fact is true.
That, that is a fact.
That's happening in California.
That's happening in many states.
What's not true is that there is adecline for demand for higher education.
Mm-hmm.
There is a decline in demand to go toa traditional college and university,
(15:42):
but if you look at enrollmentsat places like Western Governors
University, Calbright College, whichis fully online, competency-based,
University of Maryland Global Campus,National University, these colleges and
universities that either are fully online,hybrid, but are designed for working
learners, their enrollment is growing.
(16:04):
Ha.
So what we're finding ourselves in isnot continuing to be steeped in the
nostalgia of yesterday and not being clearabout what's actually going on today.
So we work with a lot ofnonprofit media companies.
We work with policymakers.
We run reports to highlight what learnersactually look like today and who is
(16:27):
serving them and who is not serving them.
Community collegescertainly are serving them.
Places like the California StateUniversity system and the University
of California and the other privatenonprofits like Stanford, Santa
Clara, USC are not serving them.
And so that's one thing we do,is highlight the need to focus
(16:48):
time, attention, and policychange to serve working learners.
The second thing we do is wepublish a lot of research.
So we worked with, um, a gentleman bythe name of Michael Litsickiewicz at HEA
Group to show the return on investmenton both probably 80% of all the degree
programs in California, plus all of thefour-year universities and community
(17:14):
colleges to show in every community whichcollege and university is doing the best
to serve the lowest income learners.
So for example, a place like SantaClara University, very small Catholic
university here in California, probablyserves 16% of low-income students.
(17:34):
Mm-hmm.
Very selective, or what I callrejective- Right … which means
they love to reject students.
Yes.
And so is that value?
It's value for the few who get to go.
But if you go to Cal State Los Angeles,where about 86% of the students
that they're serving are low income,and they keep the tuition down, and
(17:57):
they're making sure that they getjobs, that actually creates value.
So we wanna highlight that.
So we've run several reports thathighlight which colleges and universities
in every community up and down thestate are actually creating value
for everyday Americans on the ground.
Mm-hmm.
Then the third thing we do, and youmentioned it at the top of the show,
we partnered with Georgetown UniversityCenter on Education and the Workforce.
(18:21):
Georgetown CEW is o- one of the bestlabor economist shops in the country.
They know what they're doing.
We picked them because we feelthat they're the best, and we asked
them to take a look at California.
California has a 70% attainment goal.
Governor Gavin Newsom set that goalfor the state, which means that we want
(18:42):
70% of all working-age adults to havesome sort of post-secondary credential.
We are hovering atprobably 54, 56% right now.
So we asked Georgetown what wouldhappen if California could actually
achieve that goal across everydemographic group, age, ethnicity,
(19:04):
race, get everybody up to that 70% goal?
I'm gonna ask you to hold that thought.
We're gonna take a very, veryquick break, and then we're gonna
reveal the big number- Perfect… right, right after this break.
All right.
So we'll be right back with EloyOrtiz Oakley right after this.
You're listening to Let's HearIt, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hostedby Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
(19:27):
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
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Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now, back to the show.
(19:52):
And we are back with Eloy Ortiz Oakleyof the College Futures Foundation, and
he was just about to reveal the bignumber- … the value to California for
helping 70% of all demographic groupsattain a college certificate or degree.
Eloy, tell us what you found.
What we found, in partnershipwith Georgetown, is it would mean
(20:13):
$4.4 trillion of economic outputfor the state of California.
It would move the state from beingthe fourth-largest economy in
the world to the third-largest.
It would mean an additional $214,000 foreach working-age Californian So it had
(20:33):
a tremendous impact if we can get there.
Now, it would require a sizable investmentof about $198 million annually, but for
California, that's not a huge number.
And the return on the investmentwould show in about five to six years.
So given that we are in a gubernatorialelection cycle this year, we're
(20:56):
hoping that the next governor ofCalifornia pays attention because
they would see a return on theirinvestment within their second term.
So it would be a perfect win for thenext governor if we can get there.
4.4, that's 4.4 Elon Musks.
That's right.
That's On- only Elon can count that high.
So that, I mean, that'san incredible number.
(21:18):
Can you just give us a little senseof- Mm-hmm … what that represents?
What that represents is, first of all, theadditional tax base that it would create.
So even short-term credentials boostthe earnings of your average working age
Californian, and this is true not justin California, but across the country.
(21:38):
And then moving beyond a short-termcredential to a two-year associate's
degree or a bachelor's degree,those additional earnings compound.
It creates additional tax base,so it's additional revenue
for the state of California.
It's additional spending power foreach working age adult in California.
(21:59):
It also lessens the need for socialsafety nets, less- lessens- Right
the amount of people going intobeing incarcerated or having,
becoming justice-involved.
It has also multiple generational effects.
If you think about someone like myselfor yourself, you know, if you were the
(22:20):
first to go to college, get a credentialin your family, that compounds over time
'cause your family members are more likelyto go, your children, your grandchildren,
and that compounds the effect.
So reaching a 70% attainment goal acrossall the demographic groups, especially
those demographic groups that have laggedfar behind, and, you know, and that there
(22:42):
is a demographic group, if not more thanone, in each state across the country.
If you can lift all those boats,it would have a tremendous impact,
and what Georgetown sees is that itwould at least have, could be more,
$4.4 trillion in additional economicbenefit to the state of California
over about a 30-year period of time.
(23:04):
And it would boost the livelihoodsand, you know, the earnings
and the generational wealthcreation of all Californians.
And in this report, you really, youtalk about the demographic and the
geographic disparities- Mm-hmm … incollege attainment in, in California.
Mm-hmm.
C- can you talk more about that?
Where and who are, you know,suffering from these disparities?
(23:25):
Right.
So California is a microcosmof the rest of the country.
I know many of the states inthe country hate to hear that,
but- … you know, we are a big state.
We have enormous diversity in regions.
We have very rural communities, veryurban communities, suburban communities,
coastal communities, inland communities,and so there's a lot of variation.
(23:48):
And as you can imagine, like most places,the coastal parts of California are
where most of the wealth is created.
Think about the Bay Area, Silicon Valley,Hollywood, Orange County, San Diego.
Those areas of the state is wheremost of the wealth lies, and you also
see higher attainment in those areas.
(24:09):
But if you go inland or in thefar north or in the rural parts of
California, it's a very different story.
There are two Californias,it is clear to me.
There is the coastal California,and then there's inland California.
Inland California has high poverty-Has disparities amongst demographic
groups, certainly in places like theCentral Valley and the Inland Empire.
(24:32):
Latino and Latina workers havesome of the lowest attainment
rates in some parts of the state.
African Americans havelow attainment rates.
Rural whites have low attainmentrates in some parts of the state.
So we have a very different California.
If we can lift those boats, plus ensurethat some of the demographic gaps in the
(24:55):
more urban areas also continue to close,it would make such a huge difference.
And I know, I hear it all the time, "Well,just because they get a credential doesn't
mean that there's gonna be jobs." Right.
Yes, but over time, improvingthe talent pool in any community
drives more employers to thatarea, drives more innovation.
(25:17):
There's also a lot of movement in thestate, like anywhere else in the country.
People in the Inland Empire whoget a credential may move to
LA County or San Diego County.
So just creating additional supportto get everybody a credential…
And I'm not saying that this is notthe college-for-all movement, okay?
(25:38):
Not everyone has to have a four-yeardegree, but everyone has to have the
opportunity to begin down that pathand improve their economic mobility.
Hopefully, at some point theygo get a four-year degree or a
master's or whatever that might be.
But there needs to be many moreon-ramps to economic mobility, and
a post-secondary credential is thefirst step toward that journey.
(26:00):
As you say, the, the coastalcommunity tends to be more
liberal, vote for Democrats.
The inland communities tend to be moreconservative, vote for Republicans.
This seems to be… One oftwo things could happen here.
One is that- Mm-hmm … it is anopportunity to bridge, in which
you say, "We wanna bring economicopportunity to all of California.
We wanna bring education and thebenefits that that produces to all
of California, no matter where youvoted in the last election- Mm-hmm
(26:23):
and who you, what color hat youwear." That seems like a bridging
opportunity, and on the other sideof it, it seems like you have to
kind of make a case that we should bespending money on education that some
conservative voters might not wanna do.
Mm-hmm.
W- w- how do you see thepolitical calculus playing
out around this conversation?
So first of all, e- ensuring thatAmericans of all backgrounds get
(26:45):
access to some sort of post-secondaryeducation and into a good-paying job
is bipartisan, it is nonpartisan.
This is an issue that every mayor,every governor wants to see happen
in their community, Republican,Democrat, Social Democrat, Communist-
(27:05):
MAGA, whatever you wanna be.
It is, at the end of the day, aboutjobs, economic opportunity, the
opportunity to actually, you know,be self-sustaining, self-supportive.
So this is true in California and,and while California certainly
has its liberal bent, it is stilla fairly conservative state.
(27:27):
And so- Mm-hmm … the, the bridging isthere is a huge amount of frustration in
California and across the country aboutthe state of the economy and the control
people feel that they have in the economy,whether it's the fear of AI disrupting
jobs, uh, which is certainly true insome cases, the fear that they don't
(27:49):
have enough skills to, uh, get into thenew jobs that are be cre- being created.
I mean, you can't go to a jobinterview today and not be asked
a question about, you know, howcomfortable are you using AI tools?
Are you comfortable using this particulartool that we have in our industry?
Every job requires this,so there's that fear.
There is a lot of frustration,and so bridging the gap, ensuring
(28:13):
that the post-secondary system isactually addressing those needs.
And then certainly conservatives andcertainly today, you know, with this
administration, there has been a lot ofquestions raised about the efficiency of
spending at colleges and universities.
And so I do think that there isa move, and a bipartisan move,
(28:35):
to have more accountability.
You think about the recent changes tograduate student loans or some of the
changes around gainful employment.
Those were not driven by the right.
Those were bipartisan solutions.
Most of them, particularly the graduatestudent loan caps, came out of the
Senate Um, this was an idea that wasbaking before the Trump administration.
(28:59):
So there is a need to have moreaccountability, and I think that's a
welcome opportunity for college anduniversities to really focus on what
their mission is and ensure that whilehigher education provides a lot of
benefits, the number one reason that98% of the people go to college is
to improve their economic livelihood.
(29:19):
Yeah.
Well, in, just in the minute or twothat we have left, let's just say
that, okay, the report is right, thatthere's huge economic opportunity
to be presented by, you know, morepeople achieving higher education.
What does the state looklike- Mm-hmm … in 10 years?
Well, actually, we'll giveyou seven years- Right
'cause it'll be the last yearof the second term of the
next governor of California.
(29:41):
What does the state look like?
What does the economy look like,and what do these regions look
like differently than they do now?
I think, one, that healthoutcomes begin to improve.
You have a decline in poverty.
You have an increase in the number ofyoung Californians that are getting
access to childcare and a good education,and you see a much more vibrant economy
(30:02):
in the various parts of the state.
I'm not saying that seven, 10, 20years from now we will solve poverty
or that y- you know, there'll be wealthdistribution across every part of the
state, but it will take us a long way.
We are in a huge hole right now.
We have distrust ingovernment and institutions.
(30:23):
We have people strugglingto survive in this economy.
I think in seven years we will see thatbegin to turn around if we make the right
investments, if we support accountabilityaround outcomes, and we begin to focus
on the needs of working learners.
I think you will see an improvementin health outcomes, an improvement
(30:47):
in people's trust in government, andan improvement in the economies of
every community across the state.
Well, sign me up for that.
I also, if I could add one, an educatedpopulation makes better decisions.
Yes.
And, uh, And we need better decisions.
I look forward to that.
Well, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, presidentand CEO of College Futures Foundation,
(31:08):
this has been a great conversation.
It actually encourages me.
I think that we are on the right track,and I think that this is very possible.
I also would encourage other folksto listen to your podcast, The Rant.
All right, see.
Well, I guess you can'tsee it, but yes, The Rant.
I can't see.
I can see, but nobody else can see.
But I can tell you that he'sgot a very good setup, which
is why he sounds so great.
(31:28):
Eloy, thank you very, verymuch for talking to us today.
It was great to talk to you.
And we're back.
Okay, so before we get into the substanceof the report, which is really important,
and before we get into the importanceof community colleges and what's going
on with education, can we just talkfor a moment about what an effective
communicator Eloy Ortiz Oakley is?
(31:51):
I wanna take a class with this person.
You know what I mean?
I just- He does a good job.
I wanna sit down at the feet andjust listen to what's happening
because he does such a beautiful job.
I was actually thinking about thatEven as a former Let's Hear It guest
myself, and I'm like, you know- … Iwish I could be that succinct and clear.
And this is a technical, difficulttopic, and Eloy Ortiz Oakley just
(32:13):
lays it out and brings us all in.
Seems like he's been doing this.
I, right.
This is who we needleading us on these topics.
So just, can we just pause for a momentand just appreciate the communicator
here and the excellent work that's- Yes
being done?
And this is di- this isdifficult stuff, to pull all this
together and talk about this.
And Eloy is a seasoned podcaster as well.
He has a podcast called The Rant.
(32:33):
Which is fun.
I mean, if you're gonna talkabout education, you want someone
who's gonna rant about it.
You know, it, it's notthe tea and crumpets hour.
It's The Rant.
Let's get into this stuff.
And Eloy is nothing if not emphaticabout the value of higher education
and, in particular, community colleges.
So he's great at this.
And what are we doing?
A- as always, we'retrying to make the case.
(32:55):
We have to make the economiccase for why these things matter.
And so College Futures goes to theGeorgetown University Center on Education
and the Workforce and says, "Let's lookat this together. Let's figure out if we
could hit this post-secondary attainmentgoal of 70% across all demographic
groups." You're, and you're gonna dothis in a pretty aggressive timeframe,
'cause they actually time-bound this.
They wanna get this done by 2035.
(33:16):
What they're saying is that wouldset the state up, set California's
residents up to realize $4.4 trillion.
Can you even imagine thescale of these numbers?
Yes.
$4.4 trillion in net gains.
So this is what's left after you do allthis stuff to make this possible, right?
This is extra stuff.
Over the next- More … overthe next 50 years.
So that's $200,000, $214,000per working age adult.
(33:39):
It's not immediate.
It's not like it just balloons downon the state, but it's this cumulative
net benefit that happens through 2075.
And so it just puts a absolute exclamationpoint on this notion that creating
pathways for people to achieve thesecredentials is incredibly valuable.
This also pushes back on this concept thathigher education isn't worth the money.
(34:02):
Mm. And people have been saying, "Oh,you know, it's too expensive. I'm not
gonna get a good job. It's not gonna beworth it." And particularly for people
who have not traditionally had access tohigher education, it is a game changer.
And they're attempting to put somemeat on the bones of this argument
by saying, "Here's what the economicvalue will be to the state if we
(34:23):
get 70% attainment," attainment justmeaning people get a certificate or a
degree from every demographic group.
'Cause a lot of folks are doing just fine.
I, I mean, you let's just say,you don't see white people
of a certain income class- Mm
saying, "Oh, you know what? College isn'tworth the money." Mm. Because it is,
(34:44):
and it's worth it for a million reasons.
It's the networks that you createand the skills that you gain.
It's all of that stuff.
For me anyway, I learned how to write,I learned how to make an argument,
and this is what I do for a living.
Yeah.
If I didn't learn itthere, I wouldn't have it.
Yeah.
So it's what built thishouse I'm sitting in.
Yeah.
There is value to it.
We have to help people understandhow they can get that education.
(35:08):
We have to make it availableand affordable, of course.
And the point I think that Eloymade that was really interesting,
which is that in the old days, youwent to college, you graduated,
you went to job, and that was that.
Instead, people are going backagain and again and again to get a
new credential, to get more skills.
This is a long-term relationship insteadof this one-and-done thing, and we have
(35:28):
to rethink how we use higher educationin order to make our lives better
over time, and that's a new thing.
And think about a population that's aging.
We're all confronting this changingeconomic scenario of what's happening
as we need to get skilled and re-skilledto address how things are evolving.
But then this is really importantfor people to understand.
The 70% threshold, it'sactually not so crazy.
(35:51):
We're already at 56%attainment in California.
Right.
So, so we're actually-- We'retrying to get that next 14 points.
What happens when you get there, when youget to that 70% across every demographic
group, is you bring people into the party.
So actually, one of the m- one of thebiggest places where you would see
change across demographic thresholdsis that our Hispanic Latino population,
you would see attainment levelsjump considerably for that cohort.
(36:14):
Right.
So for those of us that care about equity,create o- outcomes that benefit all of
us, and then we think about, well, what'sthe echo chamber effect of doing that?
What happens for all of us?
How about let's all grab $4.4 trillionover the next 50 years by creating
these attainment pathways and actuallymaking them happen for more and
more people across all demographics?
(36:35):
And they estimate that it would costabout $200 million a year to, to do this.
Not billion, $200 million a year.
Since we started this show, I assumeMark Zuckerberg made $200 million.
Yeah.
Right.
Since we just started-Exactly … our conversation.
Exactly.
Since I was trying to get myaudio set, he made $200 million.
It's, like, this isn'teven coins in the couch.
And now I'm not saying that we shouldjust have the billionaires pay for it.
(36:59):
I think the billionaires shouldpay their taxes, and so then
the state can pay for it.
Anyway, I don't wanna go too far down thatrat hole, and it's a hole full of rats.
Mm. But the idea is that it is notactually that much money in the grand
scheme of things, and the benefitsto society, to people's lives, to
healthcare, folks who wouldn't end up inprison- Right … all sorts of things.
(37:22):
The knock-on benefits- Yeah
of a highly educated, highlyengaged society are incredible.
$4.4 trillion, but probably more andbetter than that in so many ways.
So, you know, this is coming fromthe Georgetown University Center on
Education and the Workforce, and whenyou start pulling on this thread of
how do you get to the 70% attainmentlevel, what I love about all these
(37:45):
conversations about education is thatin our mind, we go to the student
either late ca- you know, mid-careeror early, whatever, early or late.
We go to the student and the educationinstitution and the certification,
whatever it's gonna be, right?
We j- That's, that's where our mind goes.
But to actually support thoseoutcomes You're actually starting
(38:06):
to talk about, well, what doeshousing stability look like?
What does- Mm-hmm… transportation look like?
What does childcare, what does healthcare?
Do you have enough time?
Do you have slack- Yeah … financiallyin, in your overall life?
And so actually, this analysis addressesthose parts of the conversation too.
It's not just about how do we bite onthe price of education, of entry around
(38:27):
this stuff, but it's actually recognizingthere's a larger consideration here.
What I love about these conversationsis it causes us to have a step back and
say, "What does it look like to organizeour state, our society, around the
idea that we wanna support ever greatereducational attainment outcomes for all
of our populations?" And guess what?
(38:48):
When you do that, society gets materiallyand meaningfully and objectively better.
So the, I, I love that partof this conversation too.
The other thing, there's a communitycollege in every community.
There's, I don't know, 108 of themor something like that in the state.
They're everywhere.
They're in every c- congressionaldistrict, give or take.
They're in most stateassembly or senate districts.
(39:09):
There are a lot of folks who havea real interest in ensuring that
these institutions are strong.
And then folks, they go to theseplaces, they stay there often.
You get businesses in thosecommunities who are finding a pipeline.
Okay, if you go here, you get thistraining, and then you can get a job.
And then folks buy homes, and theylive in a community, and they build it.
(39:29):
And as somebody, Kirk, who's working on-… community electrification- Yeah … like
you understand- Oh my goodness … thevalue to a community of being engaged
and connected, and what that does.
And the benefits, like I say,they're not just economic, they're
emotional, they're societal.
It's so obviously a great investment.
(39:50):
Now, that's just community colleges.
Now, there's also s- the CaliforniaState University system, there's the
University of California, and then thereare a variety of other institutions.
Now, I will say that E- Eliwas pretty hard on the private
institutions- … for being rejective.
Yeah.
And I totally agree with him on that.
That's one of my favorite phrases of his.
He's like, "They're not selective-" No.
(40:11):
"… they're rejective." They're rejective.
I l- That's great.
It's like- That's great … wereject almost everybody.
Yeah.
Nobody is good enough for us, and- Right… like that's… You're proud of that?
Yeah.
You know?
That's crazy.
Yeah.
So anyway, a mild digression, but thisinvestment in public higher education
in California, and it doesn't haveto be a four-year degree that you
go right out of high school, and yougo to a frat party and a kegger and
(40:32):
a whatever, and then you graduate.
It could be a certificate.
It could be an associate's degree.
It could be a nursing degree.
It's all of those things that theseinstitutions are very, very good at
delivering for a really good price, andthat kind of investment feels to me to
be so wise, so important, and cheap whenyou compare- Yeah … the value that
(40:53):
you get out of it, and they're tryingto put a number on that value, and
honestly, I think that they're probablyunderrepresenting what the value is.
Well, and let's also make the case, Imean, we've got an audience that goes
well beyond California, so all this,this assessment is focused on California.
Yeah.
Y- you could run this for anystate- Yeah, yeah, yeah … because
you're gonna get the same demo.
And, and let's also- It's interesting.
It's that … let's, let's also saythat the community college system
(41:16):
in California is exceptional.
Yeah.
Taught me how to read, man.
What a surprise, by the way, that w- oneof our favorite spokes- I'm not gonna
name him, but one of our sp- favoritespokespeople- Uh-huh … on, on the
benefits of community electrificationhas taught at a community college
for 30 years because he gets it.
He's not an- Okay … he's not an energyperson, but he understands what happens
(41:37):
when you invest in your community andyou do that foundational work of making
these places better for all of us.
So can I run some numbers by you?
Guess what a unit, and this ispretending you're paying full freight.
Uh-huh.
Guess, guess what a unit costs inCalifornia Community College tuition.
What does one unit cost?
Well, I'm, I'm like, you know,George Bush and the milk.
(41:59):
Um- I'll tell you- Like they- It's40- … they asked him what a, what a
quart of milk was and he, "I don't know.
A, a penny" It, it's, it's $46 per unit.
O- When I went, it was like, okay, itwas a while ago, five bucks a unit,
and I got a Board of Governors grantto pay for that, and I was a busboy-
Yeah … working in a Mexican restaurant-Yeah … in Pacific Grove, California.
(42:21):
And so that, whatever it was,the five bucks a unit grant
that I got was valuable.
But 46 bucks a unit is affordable.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And so this is how dramatic this gets.
In California, and again, we'retalking about folks that are coming
into the system for the first time.
But so if you do w- two yearsof community college and then
go to a Cal State school, right?
(42:43):
And, and by the way, none ofthe life outcomes here are
really gonna be different.
That's the other part of this.
But if you do two years of communitycollege, two years at a state school in
California, you're living at home, solet's understand there's a life cost here.
We're just talking tuition- Yep … fees.
Over four years, you'regonna spend maybe $25,000.
Now, for many students, theyactually don't even pay that
(43:03):
potentially because if they can getaid and different things like that.
Right.
But we're just lookingat the full freight cost.
So the full freight, four years, $25,000,which suggests, by the way, that some of
the barriers to entry we're talking abouthere are not purely financial, right?
Right, like, like- Sure … there,there could, there are other challenges.
Now, let's extrapolate all the wayout to the comparable pathway for a
(43:25):
four-year private university experiencewhere you're paying full sticker price,
there's no aid, which is happening inthis K economy we've got that's happening
for an incredible number of students.
You're talking about schoolsthat cost over $100,000 per year.
So you're talking about studentsthat c- can roll through that
(43:46):
four-year education spending 400, 430,$450,000 when it's all said and done.
Again, life outcomes, compare them.
The $25,000 cost of doing two yearsof community college, two years at
the CSU versus four years at theprivate university, there's not
a meaningful difference in lifeoutcomes between those two scenarios.
Now, there's a lot of choices householdswill make, and there's reasons why they
(44:08):
might select one path versus the other.
Right.
But this is the incredible disconnectbetween what the cost of these experiences
can be for people that are confrontingthese choices as households and trying
to think about what's gonna come next.
There's another way of thinking about it,which is that the folks who can afford
to send their kid to Stanford, thatkid's gonna do fine wherever they go.
Hmm.
Hmm.
(44:28):
That's the short version.
Hmm.
They're gonna do fine wherever they go.
Hmm.
They are-- They come from a family ofmeans, they have l- life connections, and
they're gonna succeed wherever they go.
And for the folks who cannot affordto go to Stanford, who don't have that
access, their parents didn't pay for thetest prep and all the other stuff, the
benefit to them of this very democratic,cratic institution, the public higher
(44:53):
education system in California, includingCalifornia, meaning the community
colleges and the state university, i-the, the value is, i- is extraordinary,
and they do need that access to newsocial groups, to new- That's right
cohorts of- That's right … oflearners, to all of that stuff, because
they may not necessarily have thatin their lives, and so that becomes
(45:13):
this magic carpet ride to prosperity,and that's incredibly important.
And so you're talking about cost.
As a Pell Grant student- Hmm … Iapplied to every grant I could think
of, and I came out of UC Berkeley aftertwo years of community college, two
years of Berkeley, with, I don't know,$10,000 worth of debt that I used to
pay for my $600 a month apartment.
(45:34):
Like, I don't know how peoplecan afford to live… Go, go
to school in the Bay Area.
Hmm.
That's a huge issue that we have to dealwith, the cost of living for a student
Outside of the u- university itself.
Anyway, that's something for another day.
No, but I'm glad you brought itup 'cause it was exactly where I
was gonna go with it, it w- Andit's actually why I love that Eloy
is such an effective spokespersonon all this, because this- Yeah
(45:56):
is multidimensional, right?
It's not just the price of educationat every phase of the game.
There's a cost of participation.
It's not just the tuition feesand books, but it's all the
other stuff you're paying for.
And then depending on where you'reat in your career arc, there's an
opportunity cost to doing this, too.
You know, for households andindividuals that are having to balance
all this education, participation,opportunity cost, the key item that's
(46:17):
being put on the table here is thatthis is not just something that
the individual alone should bear.
If we want the best outcomes for us asa collective society, if we want the
best outcomes for us as a state, ifwe want the best outcomes for us as a
nation, collectively, we should have acollective conversation about how do we
make these transitions more possible forpeople that are interested in taking it.
(46:37):
So again, this is why we needspokespeople- Yes … like Eloy Ortiz
Oakley leading this charge because this isthe conversation we all need to be having.
I can feel you landing theplane of this conversation.
Go.
I have one m- I have one morething to say- Go, go, go,
go … which is, which is this.
Which to, to pull itback to communications.
Hmm.
The-- Which is that it is important todo this kind of research so that you can
(46:59):
put a number on the zeitgeist, and to beable to have this kind of conversation.
You inspire folks, you g- you getthat conversation going, and you help
them better understand the value.
Yeah.
And there's a way to turn the hugeocean liner of perception about the
decreasing value of college to theaverage person, and help them focus
(47:24):
again on something that they canunderstand, which is economic value.
And I will also say that at the sametime, College Futures Foundation talks
about the stories of the people, too.
You- Yeah.
This is not just about numbers,it's also about people and stories.
But the ability to communicate about thisin an understandable way that elected
officials and other policymakers mightjust be able to figure out, is one of
(47:49):
the powers of communications, and it'sone of the strengths of College Futures
and Eloy at- Trying to help peopleunderstand about the value of this work.
I'm so glad you brought us backthere because it's like, look how
far we got just on 4.4 trillion.
Right?
You've got the data that says,"Hey, let's examine what this 4.4
trillion really is about. What is itsaying that's possible? What is it
(48:11):
saying that we need?" But that's mystarting point, is the 4.4 trillion.
Would you like to be part of this?
Do you want 4.4 trillion or not?
Exactly.
No.
I don't want it.
Who wants to, who wantsto be a 4.4 trillionaire?
No one.
Of course, that's the gameyou're playing, right?
Uh.
Exactly.
No, very- There will be a 4.4trillionaire if we live long enough.
Oh.
God forbid.
No, that's right, and oh, I know exactlyit would not be a good day for all of us.
Well, no, thank you so muchfor bringing us back there
(48:32):
because you're exactly right.
You're exactly right.
This is a demonstration of howthis is working on so many levels.
And again, I just keep going back to thespokesperson part because you also have
to have the compelling spokesperson thatcan actually bring you through this and
talk you through this, and I feel likethat's exactly what E- Eloy Ortiz Oakley's
done for us here, which is really great.
Well, Eric, thank you.
Yes, I mean, what else?
Do we have other stuffwe wanna go to on this?
No, I'm exhausted.
Because I, I think that this is…It's f- this is so- I don't wanna
(48:54):
talk anymore … this is so important.
So go find it.
We'll put it in our show notes.
This is from the GeorgetownUniversity Center on Education
and the Workforce, and go find it.
The Golden Ticket (49:03):
How Raising Postsecondary Attainment Rates To
70% For All Demographic Groups WouldUnlock Decades of Prosperity, and
it would be more than that even.
So please go find it.
Eric, this was great, and EloyOrtiz Oakley, thank you so much
for coming on Let's Hear It.
That was a great conversation.
And w- and I hope he'll be back.
I hope we'll get to hear from him again.
Yeah, we'll go for a three-fer.
There you go.
That's great.
Okay, everybody, we'll see younext time on Let's Hear It.
Welcome to Let's Hear It.
Let's Hear It is a podcast forand about the field of foundation
and nonprofit communications,produced by its two co-hosts, Eric
Brown and Kirk Brown, no relation.
Well said, Eric.
And I'm Kirk.
And I'm Eric.
Let's Hear It is sponsored by thePrebys Foundation, a foundation
creating an inclusive, equitable, anddynamic future for all San Diegans.
(00:22):
Check out their amazingly goodpodcast, Stop and Talk, hosted by
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
You can find them atstopandtalkpodcast.com.
You can find Let's Hear It on anypodcast subscription platform.
You can find us onlineat letzhearitcast.com.
And if you like the show, please,please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts
so that more people can find us.
(00:43):
Let's get onto the show.
I love that we're getting return guests.
This is a welcome andimportant returning edition.
Hi, Kirk.
Hello, Mr. Brown.
How's it going?
It's going.
You still hot in this very hot summer?
Oh, no, it's sunny and beautifultoday And beautiful and perfect
and magnificent weather Great dayto sell a house in San Francisco.
Right.
And people buy the house like, "Oh,the weather's always good." And
then the next day comes- Right,right … it's 41 degrees, and they go-
(01:05):
Yeah … "What did I just do?" Right.
Come and see the sun for one day, oneday only in the summer in San Francisco.
Exactly.
So take us to this, becausethis is a return guest.
This is a really importantconversation, and it's timely,
timely, timely for all of us.
I'll say Eloy Ortiz Oakley, thepresident and CEO of the College Futures
Foundation, who some of you may rememberfrom about two years ago, is back to
(01:29):
talk about this very, very interestingnew research that College Futures
commissioned from Georgetown University.
And I have to say, I, I don'twanna give away the news,
but it's really interesting.
It is really important for the peopleof the state of California, because
they talk about the value of highereducation economically to the state of
(01:50):
California, and that's all I'll say.
Yeah, and the work was done withthe Georgetown University Center
in Education of the Workforce.
And go find this report online.
It's called The Golden Ticket (01:59):
How Raising Postsecondary Attainment Rates to 70%
for All Demographic Groups Would UnlockDecades of Prosperity in California.
They don't have to go o- They can go toletshearit@cast.com- That's it … and
we'll put it in the show notes.
Let's Hear It will takeyou straight to it.
But, uh- Don't go anywhere.
We'll do all the work for you.
Come to us.
But so let's listen in.
How we roll.
This… Let's listen in.
(02:19):
This is so important, this finding, andthe backdrop here of what's happening
with education is so important.
And Eloy Ortiz Oakley, president andCEO of College Futures Foundation,
formerly the chancellor of theCalifornia Community Colleges.
My goodness, one of the mostimportant- Yes … institutions
of its kind in the world.
A- as, as I say ad nauseam in thisepisode, I am the product of the
(02:42):
California Community College system.
I had wandered off into the wildernessand wandered back and found my way
into community college in Monterey,California, and then got to transfer to
Berkeley, and then my life got to begin.
So I, if anybody can speak tothe value of higher education in
the way that Eloy talks about it,and we'll talk about it after we
listen, it is I. It's, it's- Or me.
(03:04):
Right.
It's, it's an incredible system.
It is.
So let's listen.
This is Eloy.
This guy.
This Ortiz, Ortiz Oakley on Let's Hear It.
We'll listen.
We'll come back.
Over the past 10 years, more andmore Americans are deciding that
college isn't worth the cost.
Now, this is amazing to me.
Generations of parents did whatever theycould to send their kids to college.
(03:26):
Not anymore.
In a recent poll, nearly two-thirdsof respondents said it's not worth it.
Too much debt, too little to show for it.
My guest today is pushing back.
Eloy Ortiz Oakley walked into acommunity college classroom one day,
more or less by accident, and itchanged the trajectory of his life.
And as Eloy and I talked two yearsago, it changed the trajectory of my
life as well, so I totally get it.
(03:49):
Eloy then went on to run the largestcommunity college system in the country.
Now he is president and CEO of theCollege Futures Foundation, where his
job is to ensure that more studentswho have not been well-served by
the education system have a chanceto get a degree or credential,
because that's good for all of us.
And he's working to make the case.
College Futures commissioned GeorgetownCenter on Education and the Workforce
(04:11):
to run the numbers on what it wouldmean for California's economy if
70% of all demographic groups gota college degree or certificate.
Eloy will tell us what they learned.
Eloy, thank you so very much forcoming back to Let's Hear It.
It's great to be here,and it's great to be back.
Okay, so let's just dive right in.
We are at a very, very strange moment-… where a majority of Americans have started
(04:34):
to question whether college is worth it.
Now, you spent your whole life, yourwhole career inside this system.
When you hear that kind of skepticismWhy do you think people think this?
Well, first of all, let me just say that,as you mentioned at the top of the show
here, community colleges saved my life.
It saved lives of tens of thousands,if not hundreds of thousands,
(04:58):
of Americans across the country.
It is the truly most uniqueAmerican system of higher education.
It is America first- Yeah.
… for some of my friends onthe other side of the aisle.
No other country has a system ofhigher education like community
colleges, so I'll just start there.
Community colleges are in everycommunity across the country.
(05:20):
However, we are in this strange momentwhere more and more Americans are starting
to question why they need to go tocollege, the cost of going to college, not
just in terms of the tuition, but the costof housing, the cost of transportation,
the cost of not being able to hold downa full-time job while you go to school.
(05:43):
Having to make thosechoices, it's very difficult.
Certainly in states like mine here inCalifornia, the cost of living is through
the roof, and that's true of just aboutevery community in the country right now.
So people are making choices, and they'reasking the question, "If I invest 40,
50, 60, and in some cases $100,000 toget my education, is it gonna pay off?"
(06:09):
And I think that's a good question to ask.
I think every family, everyindividual who's making a choice
should be asking these questions.
It's just before we were just toldthat everybody needed to go to college
and there wasn't enough information toreally understand the cost of college.
And now with information, my organizationhas done a lot of work to put out
(06:33):
information about the cost, thereturn on investment in college, and
so have a lot of other institutions.
That cost is becoming more transparentand people see it every day.
You're in a car with your Uber driverand you s- start up a conversation and he
or she is telling you about how they gottheir degree, how they couldn't find work.
So all these things are in thewater that you throw into this,
(06:56):
a populist president who's got amessage about anti-establishment
and what's more establishmentthan American higher education?
So I think all that is in the mix.
It's unfortunate.
There is some truth inthe middle of all that.
But at the end of the day,everybody in every community loves
their local community college.
They may complain about the restof higher ed, but they all love
(07:18):
their local community college,and it still is the most- Right
affordable way to getyour higher education.
Yeah, it's sort of like your memberof Congress, you hate Congress, but
you keep re-electing the same guy.
That's right.
But for different reasons, 'causeg- uh, 'cause we know that community
college works and it's the value,particularly there, the cost is
relatively low, although you stillhave to live in California in order to
be able to go, and that's not cheap.
(07:38):
Right.
Like you, I worked my way throughcommunity college and saw its
benefits, but a- as you say,it almost feels like there is a
perception that the value isn't there.
Mm-hmm.
And some of it is anecdotal because yourUber driver is telling you about their
degree and they're driving an Uber, butsome of it, it seems to me like there
is an understanding that today's jobsare not designed for today's learners.
(08:01):
How is this playing out, particularly inCalifornia, but how are you seeing both a
perception problem and a reality problemthat's mitigating against people investing
their own time in, in higher education?
Right.
I think pa- part of the situationthat we're in right now, it's
a s- small context of what'shappening throughout the world.
We have a lot of people gettinga lot of information, most of it
(08:24):
bad information You have a lot ofpeople on social media talking about
what it means to go to college.
I mean, I just think about myyoungest daughter, she's 23.
She goes to U- UC Riverside.
She gets all of her information abouther classes, her professors from Reddit
or from Discord or from social media.
(08:45):
She very rarely gets it from meor from- … any professional
advisor at the university.
So we are flooded today withinformation, a lot of it bad, a
lot of it could be correct, butjust not being ingested right.
So it's hard for people to reallyunderstand what's going on.
Then you couple that with the enormousamount of debt that many learners
(09:07):
and their families have had to incur.
I mean, during the entireBiden administration, we heard
about the student debt crisis.
We're in this again.
I just read a recent headline, onein four borrowers are now in default.
This weighs on people's minds, and soit's hard for them to discern what's
really going on the ground, what's goingon at their community college, what's
(09:30):
going on at their four-year regional.
Most of the rhetoric is being driven bythe most rejective, the most expensive
colleges and universities in the country.
Many of them were f-for profits at one time.
Many of them are extremelyexpensive schools that leave
students with a lot of debt.
(09:51):
So what we're trying to do at CollegeFutures is break through some of
that noise and actually create amarketplace that gives learners and their
families more and better information.
Where is true value being created?
'Cause value is both the cost of youreducation, but what you get in return.
What is the likelihood that your programof study is gonna lead to a job, to
(10:15):
a career that pays that back quickly?
And so I think the more informationwe can put out there that puts into
clear context what's really going onand helps people make choices and the
right choices- I think some of thiswill go away, and we'll get back to
some, a state of people understandingthat higher education is a great value.
(10:37):
I mean, we still see time and timeagain that getting a four-year degree
still pays off over the long term.
It's just that there are a lot of examplestoday where it doesn't, and there are
more and more, and we need to do somethingdifferent in the higher education
industry to push back on that and to showclear and true value for the learner.
(10:58):
Well, College Futures Foundation has beenworking on more than anything, it seems
to me, dealing with the disproportionateeffects- Mm-hmm … of, of lack of
college attainment among people ofcolor, Latino and Hispanic families
regionally in the state of California.
Mm-hmm.
Can you talk about how the perceptionsaround the value of higher education
(11:21):
are forming among those communitiesthat would benefit from it the most?
Some of the unfortunate parts aboutour American higher education system
is that it was designed around asort of ideal learner in the minds of
college and university administrators.
The 18 to 25-year-old graduates from highschool, goes off to a four, sometimes
(11:42):
five-year residential universityexperience, goes to the football
games, goes to a few keg parties.
You know, that's the sort of thenostalgic view of what college and
university student looks like today.
But the reality is it's much different.
You know, well over 60% ofstudents enrolled in college
(12:04):
today are older than 25.
They're typically working.
They have families.
They're caring for loved ones.
Many of them are workingmore than one job.
That's certainly true ofcommunity college students.
Certainly in my state, in California,the two million community college
students, these are normal everydaypeople trying to get through life,
(12:25):
having to work, make choices, take careof their family, and every morning they
wake up and they're asking questions.
How am I gonna get through the day?
What am I going to prioritize?
What am I gonna pay for today?
Am I gonna pay the rent?
Am I gonna pay for the skyrocketingcost of fueling my vehicle?
Am I gonna pay for food for my kids?
(12:47):
Or am I gonna pay the tuition today?
Do I have to show up to class,or do I need to go to work?
These are the choices that the majorityof learners have to make, and the
American higher education system wasnot designed for them, and continues
to fail to be designed for them.
So that's what we try to point out atCollege Futures, is that while California
(13:10):
being the fourth largest economy on theplanet, one of the wealthiest places on
Earth, also has the highest poverty ratein all of America, of all 50 states.
So both of these things can be true.
We have an excellent publichigher education system.
We have the California MasterPlan for Higher Education.
It led us to where we are today,but it is failing us for the needs
(13:34):
of today and into the future.
And we're trying to highlight thatwe have a whole segment of learners,
millions and millions of learners, thatwe have to now redesign for and make
sure that they have an opportunity toget skills and competencies and the
learning they need in order to competein the economy that's being created today
and will continue to be shaped by AI.
(13:56):
And that seems to be the countervailingargument and movement in higher education,
that this focus on the four-year degreethat you go away to and stay in a dorm and
go to a kegger- Mm-hmm … is but a smallway to meet people's higher education
needs, and that people are starting tounderstand that certificates matter.
Mm-hmm.
Even if they're working in a job, theywill go to a, a community college and
get a- another certificate so they canget a better job within their company.
(14:19):
Right.
This is all higher education.
Exactly.
And we're seeing thevalue of that as well.
How are you making that case, and howdoes College Futures talk about the
various ways that an adult learnercan improve their lives, get a better
job, build their community- Mm-hmm
and have a better life?
I'll, I'll point out three waysthat we're working on this.
(14:40):
One is to change the narrative in thepublic about what higher education is.
You know, not only has it beensort of this mythology about what a
college student looks like, the 18to 24-year-old But there's also this
false narrative about that it's a oneand done situation, that you go get
(15:01):
your college degree and you're done.
Both of those myths arecompletely false today.
One, the demand, while there's a declinein the number of students going to K-12,
graduating from high school, and thisis true across the country, and you
hear a lot about the enrollment cliff,basically that the number of students
(15:22):
who are graduating from high schoolsgoing off to college is declining.
That demographic fact is true.
That, that is a fact.
That's happening in California.
That's happening in many states.
What's not true is that there is adecline for demand for higher education.
Mm-hmm.
There is a decline in demand to go toa traditional college and university,
(15:42):
but if you look at enrollmentsat places like Western Governors
University, Calbright College, whichis fully online, competency-based,
University of Maryland Global Campus,National University, these colleges and
universities that either are fully online,hybrid, but are designed for working
learners, their enrollment is growing.
(16:04):
Ha.
So what we're finding ourselves in isnot continuing to be steeped in the
nostalgia of yesterday and not being clearabout what's actually going on today.
So we work with a lot ofnonprofit media companies.
We work with policymakers.
We run reports to highlight what learnersactually look like today and who is
(16:27):
serving them and who is not serving them.
Community collegescertainly are serving them.
Places like the California StateUniversity system and the University
of California and the other privatenonprofits like Stanford, Santa
Clara, USC are not serving them.
And so that's one thing we do,is highlight the need to focus
(16:48):
time, attention, and policychange to serve working learners.
The second thing we do is wepublish a lot of research.
So we worked with, um, a gentleman bythe name of Michael Litsickiewicz at HEA
Group to show the return on investmenton both probably 80% of all the degree
programs in California, plus all of thefour-year universities and community
(17:14):
colleges to show in every community whichcollege and university is doing the best
to serve the lowest income learners.
So for example, a place like SantaClara University, very small Catholic
university here in California, probablyserves 16% of low-income students.
(17:34):
Mm-hmm.
Very selective, or what I callrejective- Right … which means
they love to reject students.
Yes.
And so is that value?
It's value for the few who get to go.
But if you go to Cal State Los Angeles,where about 86% of the students
that they're serving are low income,and they keep the tuition down, and
(17:57):
they're making sure that they getjobs, that actually creates value.
So we wanna highlight that.
So we've run several reports thathighlight which colleges and universities
in every community up and down thestate are actually creating value
for everyday Americans on the ground.
Mm-hmm.
Then the third thing we do, and youmentioned it at the top of the show,
we partnered with Georgetown UniversityCenter on Education and the Workforce.
(18:21):
Georgetown CEW is o- one of the bestlabor economist shops in the country.
They know what they're doing.
We picked them because we feelthat they're the best, and we asked
them to take a look at California.
California has a 70% attainment goal.
Governor Gavin Newsom set that goalfor the state, which means that we want
(18:42):
70% of all working-age adults to havesome sort of post-secondary credential.
We are hovering atprobably 54, 56% right now.
So we asked Georgetown what wouldhappen if California could actually
achieve that goal across everydemographic group, age, ethnicity,
(19:04):
race, get everybody up to that 70% goal?
I'm gonna ask you to hold that thought.
We're gonna take a very, veryquick break, and then we're gonna
reveal the big number- Perfect… right, right after this break.
All right.
So we'll be right back with EloyOrtiz Oakley right after this.
You're listening to Let's HearIt, a podcast about foundation and
nonprofit communications hostedby Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
(19:27):
If you're enjoying this episode,you may just be a rule breaker.
Check out season three of Break FakeRules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
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Check them out whereveryou get your podcasts.
And now, back to the show.
(19:52):
And we are back with Eloy Ortiz Oakleyof the College Futures Foundation, and
he was just about to reveal the bignumber- … the value to California for
helping 70% of all demographic groupsattain a college certificate or degree.
Eloy, tell us what you found.
What we found, in partnershipwith Georgetown, is it would mean
(20:13):
$4.4 trillion of economic outputfor the state of California.
It would move the state from beingthe fourth-largest economy in
the world to the third-largest.
It would mean an additional $214,000 foreach working-age Californian So it had
(20:33):
a tremendous impact if we can get there.
Now, it would require a sizable investmentof about $198 million annually, but for
California, that's not a huge number.
And the return on the investmentwould show in about five to six years.
So given that we are in a gubernatorialelection cycle this year, we're
(20:56):
hoping that the next governor ofCalifornia pays attention because
they would see a return on theirinvestment within their second term.
So it would be a perfect win for thenext governor if we can get there.
4.4, that's 4.4 Elon Musks.
That's right.
That's On- only Elon can count that high.
So that, I mean, that'san incredible number.
(21:18):
Can you just give us a little senseof- Mm-hmm … what that represents?
What that represents is, first of all, theadditional tax base that it would create.
So even short-term credentials boostthe earnings of your average working age
Californian, and this is true not justin California, but across the country.
(21:38):
And then moving beyond a short-termcredential to a two-year associate's
degree or a bachelor's degree,those additional earnings compound.
It creates additional tax base,so it's additional revenue
for the state of California.
It's additional spending power foreach working age adult in California.
(21:59):
It also lessens the need for socialsafety nets, less- lessens- Right
the amount of people going intobeing incarcerated or having,
becoming justice-involved.
It has also multiple generational effects.
If you think about someone like myselfor yourself, you know, if you were the
(22:20):
first to go to college, get a credentialin your family, that compounds over time
'cause your family members are more likelyto go, your children, your grandchildren,
and that compounds the effect.
So reaching a 70% attainment goal acrossall the demographic groups, especially
those demographic groups that have laggedfar behind, and, you know, and that there
(22:42):
is a demographic group, if not more thanone, in each state across the country.
If you can lift all those boats,it would have a tremendous impact,
and what Georgetown sees is that itwould at least have, could be more,
$4.4 trillion in additional economicbenefit to the state of California
over about a 30-year period of time.
(23:04):
And it would boost the livelihoodsand, you know, the earnings
and the generational wealthcreation of all Californians.
And in this report, you really, youtalk about the demographic and the
geographic disparities- Mm-hmm … incollege attainment in, in California.
Mm-hmm.
C- can you talk more about that?
Where and who are, you know,suffering from these disparities?
(23:25):
Right.
So California is a microcosmof the rest of the country.
I know many of the states inthe country hate to hear that,
but- … you know, we are a big state.
We have enormous diversity in regions.
We have very rural communities, veryurban communities, suburban communities,
coastal communities, inland communities,and so there's a lot of variation.
(23:48):
And as you can imagine, like most places,the coastal parts of California are
where most of the wealth is created.
Think about the Bay Area, Silicon Valley,Hollywood, Orange County, San Diego.
Those areas of the state is wheremost of the wealth lies, and you also
see higher attainment in those areas.
(24:09):
But if you go inland or in thefar north or in the rural parts of
California, it's a very different story.
There are two Californias,it is clear to me.
There is the coastal California,and then there's inland California.
Inland California has high poverty-Has disparities amongst demographic
groups, certainly in places like theCentral Valley and the Inland Empire.
(24:32):
Latino and Latina workers havesome of the lowest attainment
rates in some parts of the state.
African Americans havelow attainment rates.
Rural whites have low attainmentrates in some parts of the state.
So we have a very different California.
If we can lift those boats, plus ensurethat some of the demographic gaps in the
(24:55):
more urban areas also continue to close,it would make such a huge difference.
And I know, I hear it all the time, "Well,just because they get a credential doesn't
mean that there's gonna be jobs." Right.
Yes, but over time, improvingthe talent pool in any community
drives more employers to thatarea, drives more innovation.
(25:17):
There's also a lot of movement in thestate, like anywhere else in the country.
People in the Inland Empire whoget a credential may move to
LA County or San Diego County.
So just creating additional supportto get everybody a credential…
And I'm not saying that this is notthe college-for-all movement, okay?
(25:38):
Not everyone has to have a four-yeardegree, but everyone has to have the
opportunity to begin down that pathand improve their economic mobility.
Hopefully, at some point theygo get a four-year degree or a
master's or whatever that might be.
But there needs to be many moreon-ramps to economic mobility, and
a post-secondary credential is thefirst step toward that journey.
(26:00):
As you say, the, the coastalcommunity tends to be more
liberal, vote for Democrats.
The inland communities tend to be moreconservative, vote for Republicans.
This seems to be… One oftwo things could happen here.
One is that- Mm-hmm … it is anopportunity to bridge, in which
you say, "We wanna bring economicopportunity to all of California.
We wanna bring education and thebenefits that that produces to all
of California, no matter where youvoted in the last election- Mm-hmm
(26:23):
and who you, what color hat youwear." That seems like a bridging
opportunity, and on the other sideof it, it seems like you have to
kind of make a case that we should bespending money on education that some
conservative voters might not wanna do.
Mm-hmm.
W- w- how do you see thepolitical calculus playing
out around this conversation?
So first of all, e- ensuring thatAmericans of all backgrounds get
(26:45):
access to some sort of post-secondaryeducation and into a good-paying job
is bipartisan, it is nonpartisan.
This is an issue that every mayor,every governor wants to see happen
in their community, Republican,Democrat, Social Democrat, Communist-
(27:05):
MAGA, whatever you wanna be.
It is, at the end of the day, aboutjobs, economic opportunity, the
opportunity to actually, you know,be self-sustaining, self-supportive.
So this is true in California and,and while California certainly
has its liberal bent, it is stilla fairly conservative state.
(27:27):
And so- Mm-hmm … the, the bridging isthere is a huge amount of frustration in
California and across the country aboutthe state of the economy and the control
people feel that they have in the economy,whether it's the fear of AI disrupting
jobs, uh, which is certainly true insome cases, the fear that they don't
(27:49):
have enough skills to, uh, get into thenew jobs that are be cre- being created.
I mean, you can't go to a jobinterview today and not be asked
a question about, you know, howcomfortable are you using AI tools?
Are you comfortable using this particulartool that we have in our industry?
Every job requires this,so there's that fear.
There is a lot of frustration,and so bridging the gap, ensuring
(28:13):
that the post-secondary system isactually addressing those needs.
And then certainly conservatives andcertainly today, you know, with this
administration, there has been a lot ofquestions raised about the efficiency of
spending at colleges and universities.
And so I do think that there isa move, and a bipartisan move,
(28:35):
to have more accountability.
You think about the recent changes tograduate student loans or some of the
changes around gainful employment.
Those were not driven by the right.
Those were bipartisan solutions.
Most of them, particularly the graduatestudent loan caps, came out of the
Senate Um, this was an idea that wasbaking before the Trump administration.
(28:59):
So there is a need to have moreaccountability, and I think that's a
welcome opportunity for college anduniversities to really focus on what
their mission is and ensure that whilehigher education provides a lot of
benefits, the number one reason that98% of the people go to college is
to improve their economic livelihood.
(29:19):
Yeah.
Well, in, just in the minute or twothat we have left, let's just say
that, okay, the report is right, thatthere's huge economic opportunity
to be presented by, you know, morepeople achieving higher education.
What does the state looklike- Mm-hmm … in 10 years?
Well, actually, we'll giveyou seven years- Right
'cause it'll be the last yearof the second term of the
next governor of California.
(29:41):
What does the state look like?
What does the economy look like,and what do these regions look
like differently than they do now?
I think, one, that healthoutcomes begin to improve.
You have a decline in poverty.
You have an increase in the number ofyoung Californians that are getting
access to childcare and a good education,and you see a much more vibrant economy
(30:02):
in the various parts of the state.
I'm not saying that seven, 10, 20years from now we will solve poverty
or that y- you know, there'll be wealthdistribution across every part of the
state, but it will take us a long way.
We are in a huge hole right now.
We have distrust ingovernment and institutions.
(30:23):
We have people strugglingto survive in this economy.
I think in seven years we will see thatbegin to turn around if we make the right
investments, if we support accountabilityaround outcomes, and we begin to focus
on the needs of working learners.
I think you will see an improvementin health outcomes, an improvement
(30:47):
in people's trust in government, andan improvement in the economies of
every community across the state.
Well, sign me up for that.
I also, if I could add one, an educatedpopulation makes better decisions.
Yes.
And, uh, And we need better decisions.
I look forward to that.
Well, Eloy Ortiz Oakley, presidentand CEO of College Futures Foundation,
(31:08):
this has been a great conversation.
It actually encourages me.
I think that we are on the right track,and I think that this is very possible.
I also would encourage other folksto listen to your podcast, The Rant.
All right, see.
Well, I guess you can'tsee it, but yes, The Rant.
I can't see.
I can see, but nobody else can see.
But I can tell you that he'sgot a very good setup, which
is why he sounds so great.
(31:28):
Eloy, thank you very, verymuch for talking to us today.
It was great to talk to you.
And we're back.
Okay, so before we get into the substanceof the report, which is really important,
and before we get into the importanceof community colleges and what's going
on with education, can we just talkfor a moment about what an effective
communicator Eloy Ortiz Oakley is?
(31:51):
I wanna take a class with this person.
You know what I mean?
I just- He does a good job.
I wanna sit down at the feet andjust listen to what's happening
because he does such a beautiful job.
I was actually thinking about thatEven as a former Let's Hear It guest
myself, and I'm like, you know- … Iwish I could be that succinct and clear.
And this is a technical, difficulttopic, and Eloy Ortiz Oakley just
(32:13):
lays it out and brings us all in.
Seems like he's been doing this.
I, right.
This is who we needleading us on these topics.
So just, can we just pause for a momentand just appreciate the communicator
here and the excellent work that's- Yes
being done?
And this is di- this isdifficult stuff, to pull all this
together and talk about this.
And Eloy is a seasoned podcaster as well.
He has a podcast called The Rant.
(32:33):
Which is fun.
I mean, if you're gonna talkabout education, you want someone
who's gonna rant about it.
You know, it, it's notthe tea and crumpets hour.
It's The Rant.
Let's get into this stuff.
And Eloy is nothing if not emphaticabout the value of higher education
and, in particular, community colleges.
So he's great at this.
And what are we doing?
A- as always, we'retrying to make the case.
(32:55):
We have to make the economiccase for why these things matter.
And so College Futures goes to theGeorgetown University Center on Education
and the Workforce and says, "Let's lookat this together. Let's figure out if we
could hit this post-secondary attainmentgoal of 70% across all demographic
groups." You're, and you're gonna dothis in a pretty aggressive timeframe,
'cause they actually time-bound this.
They wanna get this done by 2035.
(33:16):
What they're saying is that wouldset the state up, set California's
residents up to realize $4.4 trillion.
Can you even imagine thescale of these numbers?
Yes.
$4.4 trillion in net gains.
So this is what's left after you do allthis stuff to make this possible, right?
This is extra stuff.
Over the next- More … overthe next 50 years.
So that's $200,000, $214,000per working age adult.
(33:39):
It's not immediate.
It's not like it just balloons downon the state, but it's this cumulative
net benefit that happens through 2075.
And so it just puts a absolute exclamationpoint on this notion that creating
pathways for people to achieve thesecredentials is incredibly valuable.
This also pushes back on this concept thathigher education isn't worth the money.
(34:02):
Mm. And people have been saying, "Oh,you know, it's too expensive. I'm not
gonna get a good job. It's not gonna beworth it." And particularly for people
who have not traditionally had access tohigher education, it is a game changer.
And they're attempting to put somemeat on the bones of this argument
by saying, "Here's what the economicvalue will be to the state if we
(34:23):
get 70% attainment," attainment justmeaning people get a certificate or a
degree from every demographic group.
'Cause a lot of folks are doing just fine.
I, I mean, you let's just say,you don't see white people
of a certain income class- Mm
saying, "Oh, you know what? College isn'tworth the money." Mm. Because it is,
(34:44):
and it's worth it for a million reasons.
It's the networks that you createand the skills that you gain.
It's all of that stuff.
For me anyway, I learned how to write,I learned how to make an argument,
and this is what I do for a living.
Yeah.
If I didn't learn itthere, I wouldn't have it.
Yeah.
So it's what built thishouse I'm sitting in.
Yeah.
There is value to it.
We have to help people understandhow they can get that education.
(35:08):
We have to make it availableand affordable, of course.
And the point I think that Eloymade that was really interesting,
which is that in the old days, youwent to college, you graduated,
you went to job, and that was that.
Instead, people are going backagain and again and again to get a
new credential, to get more skills.
This is a long-term relationship insteadof this one-and-done thing, and we have
(35:28):
to rethink how we use higher educationin order to make our lives better
over time, and that's a new thing.
And think about a population that's aging.
We're all confronting this changingeconomic scenario of what's happening
as we need to get skilled and re-skilledto address how things are evolving.
But then this is really importantfor people to understand.
The 70% threshold, it'sactually not so crazy.
(35:51):
We're already at 56%attainment in California.
Right.
So, so we're actually-- We'retrying to get that next 14 points.
What happens when you get there, when youget to that 70% across every demographic
group, is you bring people into the party.
So actually, one of the m- one of thebiggest places where you would see
change across demographic thresholdsis that our Hispanic Latino population,
you would see attainment levelsjump considerably for that cohort.
(36:14):
Right.
So for those of us that care about equity,create o- outcomes that benefit all of
us, and then we think about, well, what'sthe echo chamber effect of doing that?
What happens for all of us?
How about let's all grab $4.4 trillionover the next 50 years by creating
these attainment pathways and actuallymaking them happen for more and
more people across all demographics?
(36:35):
And they estimate that it would costabout $200 million a year to, to do this.
Not billion, $200 million a year.
Since we started this show, I assumeMark Zuckerberg made $200 million.
Yeah.
Right.
Since we just started-Exactly … our conversation.
Exactly.
Since I was trying to get myaudio set, he made $200 million.
It's, like, this isn'teven coins in the couch.
And now I'm not saying that we shouldjust have the billionaires pay for it.
(36:59):
I think the billionaires shouldpay their taxes, and so then
the state can pay for it.
Anyway, I don't wanna go too far down thatrat hole, and it's a hole full of rats.
Mm. But the idea is that it is notactually that much money in the grand
scheme of things, and the benefitsto society, to people's lives, to
healthcare, folks who wouldn't end up inprison- Right … all sorts of things.
(37:22):
The knock-on benefits- Yeah
of a highly educated, highlyengaged society are incredible.
$4.4 trillion, but probably more andbetter than that in so many ways.
So, you know, this is coming fromthe Georgetown University Center on
Education and the Workforce, and whenyou start pulling on this thread of
how do you get to the 70% attainmentlevel, what I love about all these
(37:45):
conversations about education is thatin our mind, we go to the student
either late ca- you know, mid-careeror early, whatever, early or late.
We go to the student and the educationinstitution and the certification,
whatever it's gonna be, right?
We j- That's, that's where our mind goes.
But to actually support thoseoutcomes You're actually starting
(38:06):
to talk about, well, what doeshousing stability look like?
What does- Mm-hmm… transportation look like?
What does childcare, what does healthcare?
Do you have enough time?
Do you have slack- Yeah … financiallyin, in your overall life?
And so actually, this analysis addressesthose parts of the conversation too.
It's not just about how do we bite onthe price of education, of entry around
(38:27):
this stuff, but it's actually recognizingthere's a larger consideration here.
What I love about these conversationsis it causes us to have a step back and
say, "What does it look like to organizeour state, our society, around the
idea that we wanna support ever greatereducational attainment outcomes for all
of our populations?" And guess what?
(38:48):
When you do that, society gets materiallyand meaningfully and objectively better.
So the, I, I love that partof this conversation too.
The other thing, there's a communitycollege in every community.
There's, I don't know, 108 of themor something like that in the state.
They're everywhere.
They're in every c- congressionaldistrict, give or take.
They're in most stateassembly or senate districts.
(39:09):
There are a lot of folks who havea real interest in ensuring that
these institutions are strong.
And then folks, they go to theseplaces, they stay there often.
You get businesses in thosecommunities who are finding a pipeline.
Okay, if you go here, you get thistraining, and then you can get a job.
And then folks buy homes, and theylive in a community, and they build it.
(39:29):
And as somebody, Kirk, who's working on-… community electrification- Yeah … like
you understand- Oh my goodness … thevalue to a community of being engaged
and connected, and what that does.
And the benefits, like I say,they're not just economic, they're
emotional, they're societal.
It's so obviously a great investment.
(39:50):
Now, that's just community colleges.
Now, there's also s- the CaliforniaState University system, there's the
University of California, and then thereare a variety of other institutions.
Now, I will say that E- Eliwas pretty hard on the private
institutions- … for being rejective.
Yeah.
And I totally agree with him on that.
That's one of my favorite phrases of his.
He's like, "They're not selective-" No.
(40:11):
"… they're rejective." They're rejective.
I l- That's great.
It's like- That's great … wereject almost everybody.
Yeah.
Nobody is good enough for us, and- Right… like that's… You're proud of that?
Yeah.
You know?
That's crazy.
Yeah.
So anyway, a mild digression, but thisinvestment in public higher education
in California, and it doesn't haveto be a four-year degree that you
go right out of high school, and yougo to a frat party and a kegger and
(40:32):
a whatever, and then you graduate.
It could be a certificate.
It could be an associate's degree.
It could be a nursing degree.
It's all of those things that theseinstitutions are very, very good at
delivering for a really good price, andthat kind of investment feels to me to
be so wise, so important, and cheap whenyou compare- Yeah … the value that
(40:53):
you get out of it, and they're tryingto put a number on that value, and
honestly, I think that they're probablyunderrepresenting what the value is.
Well, and let's also make the case, Imean, we've got an audience that goes
well beyond California, so all this,this assessment is focused on California.
Yeah.
Y- you could run this for anystate- Yeah, yeah, yeah … because
you're gonna get the same demo.
And, and let's also- It's interesting.
It's that … let's, let's also saythat the community college system
(41:16):
in California is exceptional.
Yeah.
Taught me how to read, man.
What a surprise, by the way, that w- oneof our favorite spokes- I'm not gonna
name him, but one of our sp- favoritespokespeople- Uh-huh … on, on the
benefits of community electrificationhas taught at a community college
for 30 years because he gets it.
He's not an- Okay … he's not an energyperson, but he understands what happens
(41:37):
when you invest in your community andyou do that foundational work of making
these places better for all of us.
So can I run some numbers by you?
Guess what a unit, and this ispretending you're paying full freight.
Uh-huh.
Guess, guess what a unit costs inCalifornia Community College tuition.
What does one unit cost?
Well, I'm, I'm like, you know,George Bush and the milk.
(41:59):
Um- I'll tell you- Like they- It's40- … they asked him what a, what a
quart of milk was and he, "I don't know.
A, a penny" It, it's, it's $46 per unit.
O- When I went, it was like, okay, itwas a while ago, five bucks a unit,
and I got a Board of Governors grantto pay for that, and I was a busboy-
Yeah … working in a Mexican restaurant-Yeah … in Pacific Grove, California.
(42:21):
And so that, whatever it was,the five bucks a unit grant
that I got was valuable.
But 46 bucks a unit is affordable.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
And so this is how dramatic this gets.
In California, and again, we'retalking about folks that are coming
into the system for the first time.
But so if you do w- two yearsof community college and then
go to a Cal State school, right?
(42:43):
And, and by the way, none ofthe life outcomes here are
really gonna be different.
That's the other part of this.
But if you do two years of communitycollege, two years at a state school in
California, you're living at home, solet's understand there's a life cost here.
We're just talking tuition- Yep … fees.
Over four years, you'regonna spend maybe $25,000.
Now, for many students, theyactually don't even pay that
(43:03):
potentially because if they can getaid and different things like that.
Right.
But we're just lookingat the full freight cost.
So the full freight, four years, $25,000,which suggests, by the way, that some of
the barriers to entry we're talking abouthere are not purely financial, right?
Right, like, like- Sure … there,there could, there are other challenges.
Now, let's extrapolate all the wayout to the comparable pathway for a
(43:25):
four-year private university experiencewhere you're paying full sticker price,
there's no aid, which is happening inthis K economy we've got that's happening
for an incredible number of students.
You're talking about schoolsthat cost over $100,000 per year.
So you're talking about studentsthat c- can roll through that
(43:46):
four-year education spending 400, 430,$450,000 when it's all said and done.
Again, life outcomes, compare them.
The $25,000 cost of doing two yearsof community college, two years at
the CSU versus four years at theprivate university, there's not
a meaningful difference in lifeoutcomes between those two scenarios.
Now, there's a lot of choices householdswill make, and there's reasons why they
(44:08):
might select one path versus the other.
Right.
But this is the incredible disconnectbetween what the cost of these experiences
can be for people that are confrontingthese choices as households and trying
to think about what's gonna come next.
There's another way of thinking about it,which is that the folks who can afford
to send their kid to Stanford, thatkid's gonna do fine wherever they go.
Hmm.
Hmm.
(44:28):
That's the short version.
Hmm.
They're gonna do fine wherever they go.
Hmm.
They are-- They come from a family ofmeans, they have l- life connections, and
they're gonna succeed wherever they go.
And for the folks who cannot affordto go to Stanford, who don't have that
access, their parents didn't pay for thetest prep and all the other stuff, the
benefit to them of this very democratic,cratic institution, the public higher
(44:53):
education system in California, includingCalifornia, meaning the community
colleges and the state university, i-the, the value is, i- is extraordinary,
and they do need that access to newsocial groups, to new- That's right
cohorts of- That's right … oflearners, to all of that stuff, because
they may not necessarily have thatin their lives, and so that becomes
(45:13):
this magic carpet ride to prosperity,and that's incredibly important.
And so you're talking about cost.
As a Pell Grant student- Hmm … Iapplied to every grant I could think
of, and I came out of UC Berkeley aftertwo years of community college, two
years of Berkeley, with, I don't know,$10,000 worth of debt that I used to
pay for my $600 a month apartment.
(45:34):
Like, I don't know how peoplecan afford to live… Go, go
to school in the Bay Area.
Hmm.
That's a huge issue that we have to dealwith, the cost of living for a student
Outside of the u- university itself.
Anyway, that's something for another day.
No, but I'm glad you brought itup 'cause it was exactly where I
was gonna go with it, it w- Andit's actually why I love that Eloy
is such an effective spokespersonon all this, because this- Yeah
(45:56):
is multidimensional, right?
It's not just the price of educationat every phase of the game.
There's a cost of participation.
It's not just the tuition feesand books, but it's all the
other stuff you're paying for.
And then depending on where you'reat in your career arc, there's an
opportunity cost to doing this, too.
You know, for households andindividuals that are having to balance
all this education, participation,opportunity cost, the key item that's
(46:17):
being put on the table here is thatthis is not just something that
the individual alone should bear.
If we want the best outcomes for us asa collective society, if we want the
best outcomes for us as a state, ifwe want the best outcomes for us as a
nation, collectively, we should have acollective conversation about how do we
make these transitions more possible forpeople that are interested in taking it.
(46:37):
So again, this is why we needspokespeople- Yes … like Eloy Ortiz
Oakley leading this charge because this isthe conversation we all need to be having.
I can feel you landing theplane of this conversation.
Go.
I have one m- I have one morething to say- Go, go, go,
go … which is, which is this.
Which to, to pull itback to communications.
Hmm.
The-- Which is that it is important todo this kind of research so that you can
(46:59):
put a number on the zeitgeist, and to beable to have this kind of conversation.
You inspire folks, you g- you getthat conversation going, and you help
them better understand the value.
Yeah.
And there's a way to turn the hugeocean liner of perception about the
decreasing value of college to theaverage person, and help them focus
(47:24):
again on something that they canunderstand, which is economic value.
And I will also say that at the sametime, College Futures Foundation talks
about the stories of the people, too.
You- Yeah.
This is not just about numbers,it's also about people and stories.
But the ability to communicate about thisin an understandable way that elected
officials and other policymakers mightjust be able to figure out, is one of
(47:49):
the powers of communications, and it'sone of the strengths of College Futures
and Eloy at- Trying to help peopleunderstand about the value of this work.
I'm so glad you brought us backthere because it's like, look how
far we got just on 4.4 trillion.
Right?
You've got the data that says,"Hey, let's examine what this 4.4
trillion really is about. What is itsaying that's possible? What is it
(48:11):
saying that we need?" But that's mystarting point, is the 4.4 trillion.
Would you like to be part of this?
Do you want 4.4 trillion or not?
Exactly.
No.
I don't want it.
Who wants to, who wantsto be a 4.4 trillionaire?
No one.
Of course, that's the gameyou're playing, right?
Uh.
Exactly.
No, very- There will be a 4.4trillionaire if we live long enough.
Oh.
God forbid.
No, that's right, and oh, I know exactlyit would not be a good day for all of us.
Well, no, thank you so muchfor bringing us back there
(48:32):
because you're exactly right.
You're exactly right.
This is a demonstration of howthis is working on so many levels.
And again, I just keep going back to thespokesperson part because you also have
to have the compelling spokesperson thatcan actually bring you through this and
talk you through this, and I feel likethat's exactly what E- Eloy Ortiz Oakley's
done for us here, which is really great.
Well, Eric, thank you.
Yes, I mean, what else?
Do we have other stuffwe wanna go to on this?
No, I'm exhausted.
Because I, I think that this is…It's f- this is so- I don't wanna
(48:54):
talk anymore … this is so important.
So go find it.
We'll put it in our show notes.
This is from the GeorgetownUniversity Center on Education
and the Workforce, and go find it.
The Golden Ticket (49:03):
How Raising Postsecondary Attainment Rates To
70% For All Demographic Groups WouldUnlock Decades of Prosperity, and
it would be more than that even.
So please go find it.
Eric, this was great, and EloyOrtiz Oakley, thank you so much
for coming on Let's Hear It.
That was a great conversation.
And w- and I hope he'll be back.
I hope we'll get to hear from him again.
Yeah, we'll go for a three-fer.
There you go.
That's great.
Okay, everybody, we'll see younext time on Let's Hear It.
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